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The Joy of Ski Training with Ben Morley
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In this episode, Alyssa sits down with Uphill Athlete Coach Ben Morley to discuss the ins and outs of skiing. Ben shares insights from his career coaching athletes from juniors to collegiate skiers and discusses ways to build durability, athleticism, and efficiency through ski training that translates into other mountain sports. The conversation explores the crossover between Nordic skiing, skimo, backcountry skiing, and trail running, highlighting the importance of technique, body position, and strength. Ben also breaks down preseason training, from aerobic base-building to ski-specific exercises like ski walking, bounding, and plyometrics. Above all, he reminds listeners that skiing is about joy, play, and the lifelong fitness it fosters.
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Transcript
The Joy of Skiing
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm not going to go up a mountain unless I can ski down it. We do all the hard work and the training so we can go rip down a trail with a couple centimeters of snow and hold it together and have a blast.
00:00:22
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan. Head on over to UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:00:39
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
Introducing Ben Morley
00:00:56
Speaker
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. I will be your host today, and I am excited to have a really wonderful part of the Uphill Athlete team that we've not heard from, but brings so much education, knowledge, um particularly about skiing to our team. And I'm excited to introduce him to all of you.
00:01:22
Speaker
Today I have Ben Morley, who is a coach at the Jackson Hole Ski and Snowboard Club. He was program director and head coach from 2014 to 2020.
00:01:34
Speaker
He holds the highest certification that a ski coach can have at the U.S. ski and snowboard level and has been coaching since 2007. two thousand seven He is uphill athlete coach, but has coached athletes all the way from young kids to collegiate athletes.
00:01:54
Speaker
So Ben, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And I'm really excited to talk skiing with you today because it's a topic we don't cover as much as i think
Cross-Country Skiing's Athletic Benefits
00:02:05
Speaker
we'd like to. So yeah, thanks for being on.
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, Alyssa. And I know you have some background in skiing too, so... I think this will be a fun conversation. um a junior, at least you were a competitive cross-country skier, right?
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah, i went to Stratton Mountain School for a couple of years and my family was very much involved in the Nordic world. So I always think of Nordic as the basis of what I get to do today as a professional ultra runner. I feel like it's about as good of a foundation as you can have.
00:02:42
Speaker
And so, yeah, I'm excited to dig into those roots and and talk to you more about it. I feel like the cross-country ski world and the ultra world are very linked together. I think we see a lot of the athletes having crossover and success.
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've seen a lot of athletes that I have coached in Nordic and they were, you know, multi-sport athletes during that time too, but now have gone on to be professional athletes, professional runners.
00:03:13
Speaker
I just think it's such a ah great foundation for athleticism and, you know, anything that you want to do after that, you're, you're pretty well set up to do that successfully. Yeah, I think that it,
00:03:30
Speaker
gives a level of durability as a youth that other sports might not have as much because we have to be so strong across the board and aerobically ah developed, we'll say. i mean, it i when I think back, I always joke that you know probably most 14 and 15 year olds didn't have training logs were training four to 500 hours, did lactate threshold testing, you know all of that and how fun is to take that and be able to build on it now and just have
Success Stories: David Sinclair
00:04:11
Speaker
that understanding.
00:04:12
Speaker
Did you ever coach David Sinclair? Because he's absolutely crushing right now in the ultra world. No, I didn't. I'm aware. he was here the Nordic skier as a kid.
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. He was a Vermont Nordic skier. He raced against my brother a lot. But yeah, he just came in second at CCC. I mean, we see Jesse Diggins is jumping into races.
00:04:35
Speaker
yeah um Sophia Lockhill should know say that. But she's also kind of a stud. Not kind of, she's an amazing athlete. But yeah, and we see a lot of endurance runners who do ski mo in the winter as well.
00:04:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a pretty... pretty great crossover, but... Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, also its it's the the technical aspect of cross-country skiing um that athletes are really, you know, that after after learning certain technique cues, body position, how to move your body in space, it just translates so well into other weight-bearing sports.
00:05:19
Speaker
And, you know, not only that, like as a cross-country ski athlete, we really advocate for being a multi-sport a athlete and doing cross training, all kinds of different training modalities from mountain biking to running to rowing, um you know everything kind of under the sun endurance wise.
00:05:38
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, that that just creates a solid foundation for any ah endurance
Technical Skiing Skills and Benefits
00:05:43
Speaker
activities in the future. but Really, it's the technique point from my perspective that really translates well over into other weight-bearing sports like running, like you know climbing mountains, um what where should your body be in space? How should your weight be stacked?
00:06:02
Speaker
And where's that power application um to move yourself forward? right um And I'll continue to go back to classic skiing and really dissect the you know the body position, the movements, exactly how you should be applying power.
00:06:21
Speaker
and and take that information and pretty easily translate it over into, say, running or mountaineering. um And it it goes both ways, too. I mean, I think that in cross-country skiing, we've learned a lot from these other sports, especially in the strength realm.
00:06:40
Speaker
and It's not too far off from what you know we prescribe to athletes that are are mountaineers or alpinists. So I know we'll probably talk a little bit about that, but lots of similar similarities. And i I'm going to continue to go back to classic skiing always when i work with an athlete. Like, how how are we training yourself to to balance on one foot?
00:07:07
Speaker
Well, um you know, how's your spatial awareness, your, what's that word? but Proprioception. Yeah. um So yeah, I mean, and there's a lot more that goes into it than just the aerobic and the anaerobic aspect. Obviously there's strength, but balance and coordination is absolutely huge. And just having fundamental athletic background and body position is huge. So um that's kind of how i I approach any athlete first is like, how are we moving our bodies through space? And then we can start to think about
00:07:44
Speaker
building more power, building more aerobic base, building more, you know, increasing your anaerobic threshold, working on VO2 max, et cetera. and But we we first have to look at that that foundation.
00:07:56
Speaker
Like how are you as an athlete and how, what's your hand-eye coordination? Like, you know, how are you moving through space? um I'm going to ask this question first, and then I want to get a little bit into your background, but we think, and it is, i mean, cross-country skiing,
00:08:15
Speaker
backcountry skiing, ski mode are all very technically driven sports. You have to be a technician in order to succeed. You can't kind of just, you can out muscle a fair amount, but you you do have to know what you're doing technically. And we spend so much time on that.
00:08:32
Speaker
And we think of Mountaineering is just walking or we think of running as just running, but there is so much technique in it. We were having a discussion before came on the podcast where you said, oh, I actually think that technique is applied to is applicable to so many sports that maybe we don't think about as much.
00:08:54
Speaker
So I'd love to, and you were talking about it before, but to talk about Why we think of skiing as technical and the rest of the sports, not so much and how maybe you change that thinking when you get a mountaineer and say like, hey, we got to think about spatial awareness and body position.
00:09:13
Speaker
So yeah, I'd love to hear a bit more about your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. So, i mean, like I said, we'll we'll go back to classic skiing and and that there's but a direct feedback when you're classic skiing, if you're doing it correctly or not. It's so true. Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
you know your Your wax works or not. Your wax works or not. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when we're waxing classic skis for a racer, we want to make sure that they have good kick, but we also want to make sure they have good glide. You never want to over apply sticky wax to a ski. Otherwise you start to slow down. Right? so The goal as a wax technician is to put the most the minimum amount of kick wax on such that the skier can make it work. right So you know if you look at a profile view of a ah classic skier,
00:10:07
Speaker
You want to make sure that their weight is stacked, right? Their hips are forward. um And then there's this this movement where we flex our ankles directly beneath our hips, and then we pop off the ball of the foot.
00:10:21
Speaker
So, you know, it starts with first correct body position and being forward, weight, you know, hips forward, just like we are in running, right? And then there's a ah very, ah moment in time where we have that ankle flexion, ah moment in time where you need to pop off that ball of the foot and it has to be directly underneath your hips.
00:10:42
Speaker
um At the same time, if you're leaning too far forward, um you know, or your hips are dropping back, the weight's not stacked directly on top of the ski and flexing the camber of the ski correctly to get that purchase of wax onto the snow, right?
00:10:58
Speaker
um So we can translate that into any other sport, really. like you know There's not the direct feedback that you have in running, but if your body position isn't correct, you're not most efficient, right? you're not the most economically fit runner. So um that's, you know, when i when I think about those things, it's like, how do we train somebody to first be able to be in that body position? And, you know, strength played a huge role in this. You can't get into a certain body position without fundamental athleticism and, you know, some strength foundation, core stability to be able to be in that position to execute the movement.
00:11:43
Speaker
Um, so I, you know, i really don't see that any different from hiking up a mountain, right? It's, uh, the consequences there are less if, if your body position isn't correct, but, um, even in ski mode, like the consequences are less, right? Because you have skins on, um, you're, so you're going to get a little bit more, what we call kick or purchase to go up the mountain.
00:12:08
Speaker
um that's still That still doesn't mean that you you don't want to pay attention to these his body position and movement cues because that's ultimately you want to be more efficient, right? And be able to utilize your aerobic capacity to the fullest extent.
00:12:25
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, it's really a good tool to what i've with what I've learned through classic skiing and how we can apply this to other mountain sports.
00:12:36
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, there's so many similarities, obviously, and in classic skiing to ski mo, right? um If we take a profile shot of a Skinner or a ski mo racer and we look at that relative to a classic skier, should be fairly similar, right?
00:12:53
Speaker
um There's a bit more weight transfer in cross-country skiing, a little bit more balance that's required to be on those skinny skis. you know And at any one time, you're if you're actually doing it correctly, striding, you're on one only one ski at a time.
00:13:07
Speaker
and Versus Ski Mo, you might be you know supporting yourself a little bit with that other foot, but the idea is the same. like We want to have good weight transfer and good you know power and
SkiMo vs Cross-Country: Techniques and Training
00:13:21
Speaker
energy projection onto that glided ski.
00:13:24
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean i think Ski Mo racers can learn a lot from classic skiers. And then we can talk about like, you know, where your arms should be, what's the rhythm rhythm and timing should be of all of this stuff. And very similar. Where do you play your poles like on a, you know, more gradual climb as as the climb gets steeper, how does your your technique and your your movements change slightly?
00:13:51
Speaker
So all those principles are are really the same and how to be the most efficient skier up the hill or, you know, going forward. Yeah, I mean, gosh, you are making me want to classic ski so badly.
00:14:05
Speaker
right now, that was always my favorite. i think... Skate skiing is very flashy. It's very fast. you know you're It's so explosive. But i just there's something about classic skiing that is just, when you get it right, it is just like music.
00:14:23
Speaker
It's beautiful, the way that the movements come together. and there's so many similarities, now hearing you talk, that I can draw to trail runners. Because A, we use poles.
00:14:36
Speaker
ah For one, mean, that's, I think, such a big, i you know, similarity that maybe we didn't see. that's Poles are definitely a little bit newer in the US. They're very part of European culture for much longer.
00:14:52
Speaker
um But there are different polling techniques. They're also very similar to how we poll... um in cross-country skiing or in ski mo.
00:15:03
Speaker
And what you're talking about of athletic positioning is so often what I talk to runners about for going downhill, where you have to be in a position that's very stable so that if, say, you hit a rock and it's slippery or your ankle turns or you slip that you are always ready to move on to the other foot. You have soft ankles. Like it's really similar and that basic athletic positioning and awareness that allows you to move downhills efficiently where you're not destroying your quads because you're breaking or you're falling or slipping.
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah. So there it's, uh, you're just but making me think of so many ties to, to the different sports. Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:54
Speaker
You know, i'm I'm grateful to have grown up, you know, competing as an athlete too and then becoming a coach. but Yeah, let's get into that of how did you get into cross-country ski coaching and then come to Uphill?
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I grew up in in Jackson Hole and... Gosh, I was on skis at probably two years old. um I mean, that this goes back to my earlier point that kids just have such a...
00:16:28
Speaker
you know, head start to adults if they're able to to do stuff like this, you know, early on. um But yeah, I mean, you know, i started skiing at about two. i joined the ah ski club, the same ski club I coach for today um when I was in about first grade.
00:16:47
Speaker
and And I actually alpine skied. first for a couple of years. And then my brother was way into Nordic and he's like, what are you doing, dude? You need to get on some Nordic skis, right?
00:16:57
Speaker
I'm like, sure, I'll try it. And it was just kind of something that that we did. you know we We were a very small team here, but I stuck with it and um had some phenomenal coaches, some you know olympia Olympic coaches like Nancy Johnstone, who I competed in biathlon.
00:17:19
Speaker
um Jim Curran, who was a 50-kilometer athlete in Albertville Olympics. And then there's a handful of other you know Olympic athletes in the community here that have always been supportive of the program. So it's been inspiring as I've grown up.
00:17:37
Speaker
um to stick with it. um And then I went to actually what Western State College for one year and raced NCAA. um And that was, I probably was at the peak of my skiing career as an athlete at that point.
00:17:54
Speaker
um It was interesting going going to college and competing against, you know, Europeans that are 23, 24, 25. twenty three twenty four twenty five Yeah, I mean, I was 18 and i was I just remember um some races I was just getting crushed. I was look you know in the best shape of my my ski career at that point. but So it was a little demoralizing, but I still love the sport, right?
00:18:24
Speaker
um And I was you know competing pretty solidly against people my age. I was able to podium at Junior Nationals that year. Um, but just decided it was like, it was time to take a break from competitive skiing and being so focused on like, this is my life. I was ready for ah change. So yeah, transferred to university of Oregon, ah but spent my senior year in Norway.
00:18:50
Speaker
Um, and just, you know, I was going to school, but skiing basically all the time out my back door, just endless trails. Um,
00:19:01
Speaker
I remember I was living in Oslo I lived near this lake called, well, it was near Nordmarka, right? And this is just a ah massive trail system in Oslo that links up to Lillehammer if you wanted to, right?
00:19:20
Speaker
And I remember the first big storm we had there. I was just so stoked. I'm like, I'm going to get up early and I'm going on a classic ski and I'm just, I'm going to go. i'm up The problem, like think to myself, they probably don't have much groomed. I'll just see what they have groomed and go on a little adventure.
00:19:38
Speaker
And i was lost. I mean, I just kept going and going and going. I mean, I probably skied 60 kilometers that day and ended up, uh,
00:19:50
Speaker
getting on on that what they call the T-band, the railway, but some point, I didn't know where I was, right? And like, I just need to get on this thing and get back because I have no idea where I am. And that was enough.
00:20:06
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, that the ski culture there is just phenomenal.
00:20:11
Speaker
You know, so that was a fun point in my life. And, you know, I wanted to go there to really just embrace that that culture and, and be more part of skiing.
Ben Morley's Coaching Journey
00:20:22
Speaker
Um, yeah. And then came back to Jackson and shortly after I started coaching for the club here and that's, that was the beginning of my coaching career. um yeah. And had a lot of great coaching mentors along the way too, that have,
00:20:36
Speaker
taught me so much about the sport that you know only learn from you know analyzing and studying at a deeper level. ah Come to understand like why we're actually training, why why we how we are. and The sport has also evolved so much from you know that era of 2007, 2008 to now. The technique changes, the strength changes, like how are we doing intervals?
00:21:02
Speaker
It's continually evolving and there's always new ideas coming out. so It's been fun to to be a but a part of that evolving and growing process and an amazing sport.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, I would be, gosh, i I feel like I want to sit in on a week of your practices and just see what you're doing because I got out of, or my heyday, we'll say, of really competition was this about until 2009, 2010. Yeah.
00:21:31
Speaker
So I'd be very curious to see what has evolved since then. we still We were just getting the holes in the tips of skis. It is interesting to watch the the technique evolution of just, say, classic skiing, right? If you look at some skiers from like the early 90s, late 80s, they're skiing completely different than ah we're skiing right now. It's just like long, stretched out,
00:21:59
Speaker
a really big extension, you know, and kind of leaning far forward, reaching far with your arm, like kicking way back out with your leg. um But, you know, just people have have studied biomechanics enough and understanding like where is the most efficient power application.
00:22:17
Speaker
um it's So it's it's changed a lot. You know, everything is much shorter, much tighter. um and you know concentrated on like where do I move my body relative to my core, and where's where's the power that I can apply into the ski.
00:22:33
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, lots of changes, and and some of the training has to change with that too, right?
00:22:42
Speaker
Yeah, it was always so interesting. i grew up, my mom and... her friends, like we're all kind of the old school cross country skiers. And I know exactly what you mean about just the longest strides and kicking. So and you could just immediately tell what kind of decades someone had learned their technique from.
00:23:03
Speaker
um So, yeah, I, that's so interesting to hear where it makes sense of like almost turnover. Absolutely. And then there, I mean, another thing that has changed dramatically in cross country skiing in the past,
00:23:18
Speaker
10 years is just double, double pulling. I mean, that the athletes have become so strong and it's it's almost a requirement to be so strong in your upper body now because I mean, literally some of these guys can double pull the entire course of hills, really super steep hills, right?
00:23:37
Speaker
So there was a point in time where they're like, wow, people are doing that, right? They're double pulling a whole classic course. And, you know, FIS wanted to preserve the the classic techniques. So after that, they they decided to put technique zones on the course where you have to...
00:23:57
Speaker
Really? Okay. Wow. You have to classic stride. You don't have to classic stride. You can herringbone, but you can't double pull in these specific zones. So they're trying to preserve the classic technique, but um still, even with that, there will be people that will go out and double pull a classic race on their skate skis.
00:24:18
Speaker
they get to a hill and they'll just herringbone, right? Um, with no wax. So yeah, i mean, emphasis on upper body strength and development has, has really taken off in the past 10 years, big time.
00:24:32
Speaker
That's wild. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I can see it, but that's, that's insane. So I feel like we could talk about, and and I love talking about cross country skiing,
00:24:46
Speaker
So much. ah But we do. you also have quite an understanding of Schemo and backcountry. And for the purposes of this, we'll say Schemo is kind of Schemo racing where you're on.
00:25:02
Speaker
you know, not much more. i mean, they're more than a cross country ski, but it's like probably less than 86 underfoot, you know, probably in the seventies to sixties, almost underfoot. And then back country skiing we'll say is what people think of when they think of ski touring where it's like, yep, we're going out. We could be split boarding.
00:25:20
Speaker
We're doing more of a mountain objective with our friends rather than, i you know, going for say like speed you know,
00:25:32
Speaker
more of the uphill in a way. It's like the downhill is a big part of why you're going out. um So I'd love to talk about, since we are really in slash coming into preseason for these sports, what you look at of like, what is fundamentally quite the same across these three sports ah well, three disciplines of one sport, we'll say.
00:25:58
Speaker
And what are some of the things you would differentiate for, say, three different athletes? Yeah, sure. So, you know, I've never yeah been do a schema race or I've never...
00:26:13
Speaker
I've raced that myself, I've watched it. um And I understand the, you know like at the World Cup level, at least, the the races aren't much longer than like one and a half to two hours. No, they're quite short.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah. And they also have sprint races, right? Which are like 10 minutes? Really short. yeah Yeah. Yeah. They're like 400 meters. Yeah. ah Same idea. Sorry, schemo people. Yeah.
00:26:38
Speaker
Same idea as in cross-country skiing, though. like you know We have sprints and there's there's rounds that you go through. So you you do a qualifier, you qualify for the rounds, you potentially do a semi or a quarter semi and then final.
00:26:52
Speaker
um So same idea SkiMo, right? kind of Kind of short, very high intensity, very high power application. um And then you might have like a 50 kilometer cross-country ski race, which could be...
00:27:07
Speaker
equivalent to like the hour and and a half to two hour efforts in SkiMo. So, you know, the training for those, those two sports, I i think are, should be relatively pretty close.
00:27:21
Speaker
Right. I mean, if we're, if we're looking about like how long you're giving an effort, Um, and how powerful you need to be, that the training should be somewhat similar. Um, that doesn't mean that you discount all the other aspects of training that would develop a strong back country skier too, right? Though they're all still very important, but we're talking about ski mode, you know, even Alpine skiing and cross country skiing, ah you know, plyometric movements, like very quick, uh, short and explosive bounding, you know, jumping.
00:27:55
Speaker
And a lot of this stuff can translate into into more ski-specific movements with that plyometric movement. But that that is huge. I mean, that is that is you know fundamental to be a strong cross-country skier and a strong ski-mo skier is focusing on that plyometric movement, a very quick movement.
00:28:16
Speaker
um That said, you still need the max strength. You need to like the anatomical adaptation phase, the base phase, all of that stuff. but The emphasis of plyometric quick movements and even doing like VO2 max high intensity, very, you know, zone four intervals, much more important than if you're, you know, an alpinist or just a backcountry skier that wants to go out and do a three to four hour, five hour tour.
00:28:42
Speaker
Right. And I would say like, you know, with a backcountry skiing, the plyometric stuff is probably a little bit less emphasized. um And we all we we also need to just look at like what what any one individual
SkiMo Racing vs Backcountry Skiing Training
00:28:57
Speaker
wants to do. And that's you know that's what we do at Apple Athlete. like Somebody comes to us and they say, I want to you know ski Mount Shasta. That's a pretty big push. It's big day.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah. We need a big day. And and you know we need to think about like you know what's what's going to set that athlete up well, how they're going to be most durable and you know, still have something left in the tank when they get towards the top. So muscular endurance, um, is huge for, you know, backcountry skiing and super long efforts, um, you know, carrying weight and probably more like zone three, you know, lactate threshold type intervals, um, for longer periods.
00:29:45
Speaker
Um, with that said, like, you know, Cross-country skiers and skimo racers really can't skip any of this stuff either. You know, they have to do everything. So like if if we look at a cross-country skier, like a per a pro at this point in the season, they're still doing, you anywhere from like 30 to 60 minutes of on time, you know, lactate threshold intervals, right? And that can be broken up into, you know,
00:30:15
Speaker
Two times 15 minutes, you could end up doing two times 30 minutes. You can also break these up and and have shorter um on periods with more recovery to have a more like sustainable effort.
00:30:28
Speaker
But you know ah the the schemo ski mode skier the cross-country skier can't skip that step either. It's just a matter of where where do we place those kinds of intervals in the season so that you know that's That's not the main focus for a cross-country skier. We still need to have that that base development with that lactate threshold work. But you know as they get into the season, we're mostly doing super high intensity, shorter VO2 max powerful intervals.
00:30:58
Speaker
and that's just For a backcountry skier, you're not ever really pushing yourself that hard and it's just not as necessary. so you're You're probably better off focusing your energy and time and some lactate threshold intervals and just a huge aerobic base, you know, with with solid muscular endurance training.
00:31:18
Speaker
Um, so I think those are the main differences I see is, you know, like we need to look at the, the length of the effort, um, how much power application you need, you know, how, you know, how much weight are you carrying right on a back country ski? So, um, yeah, biggest differences I think are are with that muscular endurance versus power and how you distribute, you know, your, your zone training.
00:31:48
Speaker
Um, Now, if we were to, say, take a cross-country skier or a skimo athlete, what would be right now kind of your longest aerobic effort? What would that day look like versus, say, you're building someone for backcountry skiing?
00:32:07
Speaker
What's that looking like? ah I think it was like the long run of... training how yeah what length of time are you doing for those well i mean again this goes back to the athlete who are we working with like you know um you know like a lot of pro athletes world cup skiers in the summertime and you know we're kind of at the tail end of that right now their their volume training is huge their road based training is enormous right and
00:32:41
Speaker
You know, you you can't skip that, right? So it's not like if you're if you're doing a, going up Shasta and that's that's your goal. It's not like you're you're doing longer efforts necessarily than a cross country skier.
00:32:55
Speaker
so you know. I'll say like at this time of the year, like a pro skier, they could be doing 20 hours a week, um, total. So some of the long runs, you know, upwards of four to six hours potentially, um, for juniors, you know, we don't go really longer than like three to four hours on a, on a long distance, like volume run or volume ski.
00:33:18
Speaker
um But yeah, I mean, you know, you can't really skip that aerobic base training with cross-country skiing just because it's a short effort. That's probably more the reason that you need that very solid aerobic base.
00:33:31
Speaker
So, you know, I think in that respect, the the two sports are are probably similar. Like we need that aerobic base. You just can't get around it um so yeah i mean i mean I may have been leading you into that because i was hoping you would make that point of no, actually you still really need those long aerobic efforts to build a really strong aerobic base to then have the ability to work on the top end.
00:34:02
Speaker
You have to have that foundation before you can hit the top end. 100%, yeah. I mean, I remember actually quite literally I think one of the reasons why I got into ultra running is because of how much I loved our four to five hour trail runs, where it's just go out, power hike the hills, eat a lot of snacks, go see beautiful places. And i mean, we were, we would do three to five hour long efforts, whether it was a ski and a run combo or
00:34:35
Speaker
just to run or just to ski as 14, 15, 16 year olds. Yeah, totally. I mean, i I also think, you know, when we're, we look at just the scope of what a skimo athlete or a cross country ski athlete has to achieve, like the the amount of training that they have to put in, they have to hit the the lactate threshold levels, they have to hit the VO2 max intervals, right?
00:35:02
Speaker
um And they have to have this enormous aerobic base too, all at the same time. So you know sometimes, um not sometimes, we we have to really pay attention to the staying pretty low intensity in that aerobic zone.
00:35:21
Speaker
you know it's it's It's interesting, we talk about level one, We use levels and in Nordic skiing, not zones. and don't know, it's just semantics. But you know when we're going out for an aerobic effort, it's always worth saying level one, right?
00:35:38
Speaker
it's not It's not this like the zone two type stuff. So I think the point I'm saying is like that the the training probably needs to be a little bit more polarized, meaning like those easy efforts have to be really easy and you shouldn't really be getting anywhere close to your aerobic threshold.
00:35:56
Speaker
on those three to five hour efforts, even on the hour long efforts because you're putting in so much volume. And you know if you're you're still doing those lactate threshold and VO2 max intervals and you push up to the top of your aerobic threshold on your aerobic runs, you're just going to tank.
00:36:15
Speaker
um It's kind of a recipe for burnout. so We really focus on going slow, you know? Yes. And i've I've seen it too, you know, like sometimes we'll have some some cross country runner athletes that come over to skiing and they're just crushing our our skier runners on on a distance run, right?
00:36:37
Speaker
And we always have to like, you know, hey, slow down. This is supposed to be a team effort of going very, very slow. and We should be able to do this all together, really. So, yeah, just an important point that, you know, the more you do, probably the more polarized your efforts or your your intensity should be.
Polarized Training Intensity
00:37:00
Speaker
i mean, I think it's such a great point because as athletes are starting out, ah especially if maybe they're and we get a lot of athletes who maybe haven't really done lot.
00:37:14
Speaker
an athletic endeavor or sport for say 10 years. Like they had a family, they had a hard job. They just really haven't worked on anything and staying below that zone too can mean walking. You know, it's really hard for them to to do that.
00:37:29
Speaker
And so that can feel just defeatingly slow. But as you develop as an athlete, you know, staying right below your aerobic threshold can be very hard.
00:37:40
Speaker
Like I see when I see aerobic threshold workout, I go, oh man, that's going to hurt today because it's very challenging as you get fitter to be right at that edge. You're actually going to probably fatigue yourself a fair amount. So yeah, you really do have to polarize when you increase your fitness, increase your intensities,
00:38:03
Speaker
to be able to give yourself enough, make the easy days easy and the hard days hard. Don't start sticking in the mediums because I feel like that is so much of what people miss when they start getting fitter is they think, well, I can just run everything faster. i can do every workout harder. yeah And it's like, no, actually your easier run might get slower because you're just tired from going harder on the harder days.
00:38:31
Speaker
And that's okay. Yeah. Well, you know, in in skiing too, I think it's, if you haven't if you didn't grow up cross-country skiing, or I'm to say ski mode a little bit easier technically balance-wise and stuff, you you know, and you have you have some resistance with the hill.
00:38:49
Speaker
um But, you know, it's the the technique aspect, right? So it's it's actually really hard for some people to keep it in the Arabic zone because, know,
00:39:01
Speaker
their technique is so bad, right? So we really, really have to try to slow down and work. I mean, you can you can do little tiny steps and just work on body position maybe and and still be in that aerobic zone, right?
00:39:19
Speaker
So these are things to think about. Like if you wanna get into skiing, we need to really hone in on the technique first so you can actually do your aerobic workouts effectively. Um, but there's, like I said, there's a lot of cross training in, in these sports too. So, know, we need to make sure we get that aerobic base and not blow it out when you get on skis.
00:39:41
Speaker
And I see that a lot with, you know, high school age kids, or even maybe adults. The first time they get on skis for this season, it's like, yeah, I'm stoked. You know, even if they do have pretty good technique, I'm s stoked. I'm skiing. This feels great. I'm having fun.
00:39:56
Speaker
Before you know it, they're, up into like low zone three. Um, Oh, I remember that every preseason ski trip, the first time you get on skis, you're like, and I'm in zone three just, yeah. Getting that, that back.
00:40:15
Speaker
So one of the things that I'd love to talk about, cause I was saying, Oh, we're kind of in preseason or, a moving into that. And I don't think that's a very actually accurate way of speaking about it because I'd love to hear what you think is kind of an appropriate time for say like when are pros starting their training and when it should say an amateur backcountry skiers, like I love getting out on the skin track on the weekends. I want to enjoy say four 6,000 foot
00:40:55
Speaker
days, maybe a few bigger objectives. um Like how long do you see someone who's really ah pro in the sport versus someone really, like yeah, you're an amateur, you enjoy it.
00:41:08
Speaker
um How much time should they be putting in or when should they really start thinking about building it and we'll say that the amateur has a good base fitness you know they've been doing things throughout the summer they're not starting from scratch but they haven't really done any ski specific things yeah it's a good question i mean with with the cross-country pro athlete you know it's they're training year-round so the season essentially it starts in may season doesn't really stop Yeah, i mean, there's a little break at the end of the season and it's it's always good. You have to decompress. You have to let your body to absorb the training and before you go back to another cycle, right?
00:41:47
Speaker
um But yeah, they'll they'll typically start in May and... you know, May, June, July, August, it's it's just huge aerobic base volume building, right? Base building um with some some lactate threshold stuff thrown in there, some some basic, you know, anatomical adaptation, base strength type work, um working through, know, eventually max strength and then power, you know, application with your strength. So it's a long season, right? and
00:42:20
Speaker
But for someone who's just a kind of recreational backcountry skier, I'd say, if they have a good aerobic base in the summer, if they're mountain biking and running, that's fantastic. like um We don't have to so much focus on ae just isolating their aerobic and anaerobic fitness. I think the most important thing for an athlete like that is,
00:42:44
Speaker
just basic athleticism and getting into some some kind of mobility, strength, even dynamic strength um
Preseason Preparation for Skiers
00:42:52
Speaker
workouts. Like what we offer it on Shamany Mountain Fit, right, is ah fantastic way to get started.
00:43:00
Speaker
um just a ah ah pretty fluid routine that kind of focuses on body weight strength exercises. it's It's dynamic, but then it also gets to the point where you're maybe doing like a pistol squat, right?
00:43:13
Speaker
So there's a pretty good body weight regression there. um So I think for an athlete like that, like, you know, thinking about right now, actually, is it a perfect time to start building some some base strength exercises basic athleticism, strength work that's specific to skiing. um Yeah, and I mean, I think Shamini Mountain Fit is fantastic for that, right? Yeah.
00:43:40
Speaker
Typically, you know if I have an athlete who's even not a cross-country skier, i'll I'll have them go through a program like that if they haven't done much strength training before. And then we'll move into you know maybe some core work and some general strength with you know sets and reps,
00:43:58
Speaker
um But you want to be careful with that stuff too, right? Like you need to, you haven't been in the gym much and you haven't lifted, it's a good idea to at least watch some videos, understand good technique.
00:44:10
Speaker
um But yeah, I think, you know, strength, mobility should be the focus for an athlete like that through November, right? And there's also another opportunity maybe to get in a ah ah volume training block in November. i know as cross-country ski athletes, we do that. It's like,
00:44:28
Speaker
kind of the last chance to get in a huge aerobic base block. So, you know, don't shy away from that too. And maybe at that point as a backcountry skier, it can be a little bit more specific.
00:44:42
Speaker
Maybe you have an opportunity to get on snow, but, you know, hiking with poles, what we call ski walking and eventually, know, musif and bounding.
00:44:54
Speaker
And we can talk about what what those those mean, but... you know, October, November, great opportunity to get more ski specific as a backcountry skier with ski walking, using poles, right?
00:45:08
Speaker
And have that be some of your aerobic and anaerobic work. um So yeah, I mean, strength, mobility, huge. You know, if you're just, if you're kind of an amateur and you want to be resilient and have some durability, you know, by the time you get to the top of the mountain and still ski it well down,
00:45:27
Speaker
You know, I think that's one of the pieces that, like like you keep emphasizing strength. And I think that's so important because the downhill just requires so much strength to do it well and safely.
00:45:42
Speaker
ah Because in the backcountry, there's so much opportunity for things to go pretty sideways on the downhill. And also you out you might be in a zone where It's like, hey, there's a higher avalanche risk. We have to get through this efficiently and quickly. We can't dilly-dally or fall.
00:45:59
Speaker
And so I think just having that confidence of you're not just absolutely smoked at the top, ah but you can totally ski well down too, think is just such a difference.
00:46:14
Speaker
from other sports yeah in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's you know, he's speaking strength and durability, right? Like I shouldn't discount muscular endurance training too and in the fall period.
00:46:28
Speaker
um You know, hiking with a heavy backpack and maybe doing some of your your lactate threshold intervals with a heavy backpack. um Because like you said, like, you know, four to five hour push up a mountain, you still want to have that muscular endurance and that resilience at that point to be safe and feel good.
00:46:50
Speaker
Yeah. And have fun. I mean, the dab is like the, yeah, the part that we rip. I joke with a lot of the athletes that I coach because, you know, we coach a lot of alpinists and mountaineers, know, people that go up Rainier and Denali.
00:47:07
Speaker
And they asked me if I've ever done these things. And I'm like, look, i'm not I'm not going to go up a mountain unless I can ski down it. Oh, we won't. Cody and I, my husband i won't do Shasta until we get conditions where we can ski down.
00:47:21
Speaker
It's like, I don't want to walk down 7,000 feet if i could ski. That sounds awful. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think for the most of those objectives, uh, we've done Rainier once and we'll, we'll not do it and unless we're skiing down it. That's yeah.
00:47:38
Speaker
It's way better to ski down. Yeah. you know I'm curious. And then I want to get into moose hoofing and kind of those ski invitation exercises though.
00:47:49
Speaker
Do you account for weight on feet at all? Um, like in backcountry skiing, you know, you do have quite a lot more weight on your feet than in other sports. And so do you think about that at all? Or just kind of like, that's an adaptation you have to make when you start getting back on snow.
00:48:09
Speaker
Well, I think it's, it goes back to the, some of the muscular endurance work you could do in, know, like October, for example, like September, October. So that could be a heavy backpack, but I have heard of some people putting like weights on their feet and,
00:48:26
Speaker
doing, you know, schematation exercises are their aerobic training with that, even anaerobic training with that. So I think there there could be huge benefit in that. Absolutely. Like just the weight on your feet is significant, right? It's probably a bit more than what you're carrying on your back. So it's important to think about that and like how we're going you know develop the athlete to be strong and resilient and be able to push that, that heavy weight up to the top of a mountain. So, you know, with, with cross country Nordic skiing, we don't really do so much muscular, it's like specific muscular endurance work where you're carrying like a, have a weight vest or backpack.
00:49:08
Speaker
Um, the races are just so short and we're really looking for like power application. Right. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I definitely see benefit in,
00:49:20
Speaker
doing some kind of weighted workouts, muscular endurance workouts for backcountry skiers, weight on your feet would be great. Yeah, that's one of the things just I always notice and I think other athletes know us where you put your heavier skis on, especially if they're powder skis.
00:49:37
Speaker
You're like, this is a lot harder. Yeah, moving through deeper powder if you're setting a skin track or any of that. It's ah yeah, it's pretty significant. So we've talked about the ski specific exercise or ski imitation exercises. And unfortunately,
00:49:55
Speaker
I think we're very much in a time period when we don't know when we're going to have snow and when we're not.
Ski Fitness Without Snow
00:50:01
Speaker
ah And it could be we have great snow in November and then we have no snow in February.
00:50:07
Speaker
um So what do you do to manage keeping up fitness and ski specificity when you don't have snow to train on?
00:50:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, in the cross-country ski world, we have roller skis, right? um And it's not the same as skiing, just that the feeling is a little bit different, the balance is a little bit different, but actually...
00:50:35
Speaker
In some ways, especially with skating, um it's the little it's a little bit more difficult than on skis, if you can imagine that. But just the balance is huge. Like it it requires a little bit more my solid weight transfer and good body position on roller skis. So all I'm getting to is like, you know, roller skiing is an option for cross country skiers.
00:51:01
Speaker
um And, you know, I've been to to camps before where we, the the full intention was to go at a ski camp, right? And we just didn't have the snow.
00:51:14
Speaker
So yeah right when we pack up our roller skis, we do that as, you a training modality, but, you know, ski walking, like you mentioned is huge. Also running is huge, but we all have to do it this type of stuff in balance too, because as skiers, we're not runners and we don't want to get injured too much. Right. So, um, biking can be great, you know?
00:51:38
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, we do a lot of roller skiing, but for, for the amateur, um It's tough. Like if you've never roller skied before, I wouldn't recommend it if you haven't cross country skied first.
00:51:50
Speaker
It can dangerous, first of all. But, you know, also you you might just get out there and be totally sloppy and not get an effective aerobic workout in, right?
00:52:04
Speaker
So, yeah, i mean, if people are have this on their radar, like, you know, they want other opportunities dry land opportunities, then I'd encourage them to get on skis in the wintertime and really, even if you're a ski mower racer, you know, even if you're, because there can be some crossover there with roller skis, classic roller skis too, right?
00:52:26
Speaker
And just get comfortable on cross-country skis in the wintertime and then maybe think about starting to work in a little bit of technique work with roller skis, classic skiing.
00:52:38
Speaker
um But it's, you know, roller skiing on on classic skis is is much different than skis. It's not like skating. Like we have these ratchets on the wheels. right then that that gives you your purchase, like your kick to be able to go forward. right So it's not like being on skis because you don't have to have that perfect technique to get the ski to work, the wax to work. It's like the ratchet is always there.
00:53:05
Speaker
right So we're we're pretty cautious, especially with younger athletes. and doing too much classic striding on roller skis because you can start to teach bad habits, right? If we're not like super intentional or aware of what we're doing. And oftentimes we'll just do like technique drills striding and that will be like the workout. Like it's a technique session, not necessarily an interval or an aerobic workout.
00:53:32
Speaker
So yeah, i mean, it's tough, you know, um, roller skis can be huge, but if you're, if you're a schema racer, imagine you might have the opportunity to go up to some glaciers, you know, something like that.
00:53:46
Speaker
Um, Like I know the Alpine team here this in October. They're going to Austria for pre-season camp. So you just need to get some elevation and get on a glacier and get get snow probably.
00:54:02
Speaker
But you know learning how to effectively ski walk with good technique can, in my opinion, probably be better than roller skiing um technique-wise.
00:54:16
Speaker
And what is the difference between hiking and ski walking? What are like a few key differences? I mean, if you're just walking with poles, you're just trotting along, right? You're using the poles for support and maybe a little bit of power.
00:54:30
Speaker
um But with with ski walking, we really try to imitate the classic ski motion, right? So it's it's really about kind of rhythm and timing. and making sure that when I swing this arm forward, um I have an intentional a intentional ankle flex and little bit of a pop off the ball of your foot. um you know and i've I've looked at videos of a ski walker and a classic skier, like the same guy, and you can literally overlay them and it almost looks like they're doing the exact same thing. right
00:55:06
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, it it comes down to the rhythm and timing of like, how how's your body positioned again we're going back to that but then what are the fundamental movements in that classic ski stride too really it comes like when i'm bringing this hand forward i have that ankle flexion i pop off the ball the foot and there's a little bit of hang time it's not like you're catching too much air but you know, a little bit of a hang time to kind of accentuate what would be in the the glide phase of a ski.
00:55:38
Speaker
um So, yeah, i mean, like we can, we can work on this all day with some athletes and it's really hard for some people to get that exact rhythm and timing and the power application correct when you're ski walking.
00:55:54
Speaker
And sometimes they might overthink it, right? And then it's like, it all goes downhill from there. Like they're, They're not opposite arm, opposite leg anymore. They're trying to get in this weird rhythm. So it takes practice. And I think it takes some, some good coaching like on the ground to, to learn this correctly. um And it's not just walking with poles.
00:56:19
Speaker
We should just say that.
Ski Walking Technique
00:56:22
Speaker
Yeah. That's what I wanted to emphasize is there is a lot of intention that goes behind ski walking know, Which goes into bounding, which is more more explosive version, most likely a shorter interval as well.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah. i mean, we kind of looked at it like ski walking would be more like aerobic, you know, zone one, zone two type training, but with correct technique, it's still...
00:56:50
Speaker
seems like your classic skiing, like just, you know, and when I'm out there ski walking, I'm like this, I literally kind of visualize myself classic skiing and it feels pretty, pretty close, right? The next level up would be what we call moose hoofing.
00:57:08
Speaker
And that's just, it's the same as ski walking, but it's a little bit more pop. So you're getting like a little bit more hang time. um a little bit more explosive, like, you know, plyometrically explosive.
00:57:21
Speaker
So with the Moosef, it's, you know, considered mostly like kind of threshold zone three type efforts. And it looks even closer to ah classic skiing, right? Because you have that that power application. And then you have a little bit more hang time.
00:57:39
Speaker
Again, that kind of accentuates that glide phase in skiing. um And then we have bounding, right? Which is like typically so super high intensity, maybe like VO2 max intervals, or just doing it as a drill, like maybe even doing it as a um a plyometric ski specific drill too.
00:58:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's Norway actually kind of came up with this term called spensed. um And gosh, I looked it up, but it's, what does it mean?
00:58:15
Speaker
Resilience or something like that. I think it translates to something that makes sense. And what it is is like, okay, we're working on these plyometric explosive movements where it's,
00:58:25
Speaker
Maybe in our training, we're just doing box jumps, right? Or like a broad jump that's not so ski specific. But when we get to the spence part of it, we're we're actually trying to ski foot with no skis, right? Like that's the the idea.
00:58:43
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, the the body position, the movements should look exactly like skiing when you're doing some of these drills. um but We don't just do it with like bounding, which is a classic imitation. We have some specific skate.
00:59:00
Speaker
biometric or spensed drills that we do that also mimic like the V2 motion mainly. So yeah, I mean, technique is always that work, but we're we're working on these kind of explosive, quick, powerful movements as we're working on technique at the same time.
00:59:20
Speaker
And then you can throw in like an interval session on top of that, right? So Trying to especially like this time of year um and right before snow, that becomes much more important. Like we're doing ah bunch of bounding intervals now, right?
00:59:36
Speaker
um Specific classic ski bounding intervals versus early in the summer, we might just be doing some running intervals or some intervals on the track, right? And... kind of trying to build up that that base aerobic and anaerobic fitness so you can still do these ski-specific exercises effectively with good technique.
01:00:00
Speaker
And I think that just emphasizes how The same training principles apply to pretty much every single sport that we coach and also just probably all sports everywhere is that you're outlining, Hey, here's the general or base phase of building the aerobic system.
01:00:23
Speaker
And now we're getting into the specific and then you have, you know, the competition season, et cetera.
Building a Strong Aerobic Base
01:00:29
Speaker
And so how important it is to set that foundation to then,
01:00:35
Speaker
be able to do the specific training because you won't be able to withstand really high intensity plyometric movements if you've not spent the time during the summer to build that base work up.
01:00:48
Speaker
ah hundred percent 100% totally. Yeah. So it's just, it's always, i always like to kind of pull back on the bigger picture. like, it's the same, it's the same principles applied to different sports, different, slightly different modalities, but it all comes down to kind of the same fundamental principles.
01:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I mean, the the differences are like, okay, what are we looking, what kind of movements are you doing? But most of the stuff that we're focused on is weight bearing, right?
01:01:20
Speaker
But, you know, in cross country skiing, we're a little bit more focused on upper body strength development too. So like whatever, look at whatever activity you're doing And we need a train, you know, a strength foundation for that, but then train strength with the movements also.
01:01:38
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, Ben, this has been awesome. And I'm so glad to yeah get your voice onto the podcast.
Skiing for Fun
01:01:48
Speaker
Is there anything you'd like to leave listeners with of tips just thoughts about skiing?
01:01:57
Speaker
I mean, try to... enjoy yourself and have fun. i mean, skiing is supposed to be about fun, right? that's That's why i do it. um And then it it kind of provides a vehicle to still stay in really good shape and then carry that fitness over into other sports and activities. So i just keep trying to ride remind myself that like, why am I actually doing this? I love it. Like, it's so fun.
01:02:24
Speaker
So... Try to remember that. Oh, this reminds me, I went on a dust ski trip to Austria and met up with Steve actually and did a few backcountry tours. But, you know, and that that that was our focus. is like We're just going to go have some fun and just rip around, right?
01:02:45
Speaker
remember Steve coming down this one, this ski track. I mean, there was maybe like a couple centimeters of snow at that point. It was ah low snow year.
01:02:56
Speaker
And he is just like ripping down this trail. Just like, you know, elite athleticism, like, and loving it, like having a blast, right?
01:03:09
Speaker
and So yeah, that I think I want to leave people with that is like, we do this because it's fun and we do all the hard work and the training so we can go rip down a trail with a couple centimeters of snow and hold it together and have a blast.
01:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a great way to leave it. And I think there is something truly special about skiing that brings out the site the kid side of all of us. Absolutely.
01:03:37
Speaker
Yeah, just the massive smile and whooping down the hill. And yeah, it's it's special in its own way.
01:03:48
Speaker
ah Yeah, ah God, you're making me so excited for ski season. Well, Ben, thanks so much for being on and just really appreciate you sharing your wisdom on skiing. And I'm sure that we'll do a future episode um as well to talk more about this. My pleasure. Always good to talk to yeah Awesome. Well, thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast and we will continue to bring you hopefully great educational pieces and interesting people to talk to and it's not just one but community.
01:04:29
Speaker
We are Uphill Athlete. Thanks for listening.
01:04:45
Speaker
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