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Voice of the Mountains: Brilliance is Abundant with John Winsor
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John Winsor has lived many lives: setting an FKT on Kilimanjaro before the term existed, surviving an avalanche in the Selkirks, building and selling companies, serving on Black Diamond's board, and now researching organizational innovation at Harvard. In this conversation with Steve House, he traces the thread connecting these experiences—what he calls "the explorer's mindset." Whether pioneering bike-sharing programs as an ad agency or asking "why not?" instead of "why?" in academic research, Winsor has spent his career venturing beyond the horizon and bringing discoveries back to his community.
The conversation moves into profound territory when Steve asks about Winsor's wife Bridget, who struggled with late-onset bipolar disorder and took her own life after 32 years of marriage. Drawing on Stephen Colbert's perspective about experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion, Winsor reframes tragedy not as something to be walled off but as an honor to witness and integrate. This openness extends to his recent prostate cancer diagnosis—another experience he approaches with curiosity rather than fear, asking "what does this feel like?" rather than retreating from difficulty.
The episode culminates in Winsor's surprising answer to how he wants to be remembered: he doesn't. Inspired by Hindu traditions, he longs to become "a ghost in the machine"—present, curious, connected, but freed from the burden of maintaining identity or legacy. It's a vision of equanimity that, as Steve notes, doesn't contradict the desire to bend the arc of history, but somehow completes it.
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Transcript
Introduction to John Windsor and Episode Themes
00:00:00
Speaker
you There comes a moment when something that has always been quiet becomes clear. When you realize that progress is not measured by what you build or achieve or climb, but by how deeply you've paid attention while you're building training or relating.
00:00:15
Speaker
John Windsor has lived many lives, athlete, writer, founder, boss, father, husband, researcher, and mentor. He has shaped both ideas and people across the last couple of decades of change.
00:00:31
Speaker
But what draws me to John is not the breadth of what he has done, it's the quality of how he inhabits the present moment, the now. John brings curiosity and humility. He moves through the world with a beginner's mind that has not been lost to experience, but been refined by it.
00:00:50
Speaker
He is still learning, still listening, and still asking generous questions. In this episode, we talk about what it means to stay open to growth, to uncertainty, and to the people around us. We talk about becoming an elder, not by standing apart, but by standing alongside.
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Speaker
We talk about the value of creating space for others to step into and about building both systems and relationships in a way that makes room for dignity, creativity, and vulnerability.
00:01:22
Speaker
At the heart of our conversation is one simple truth that John returns to again and again, that brilliance is abundant and how he sees his life's work as creating pathways for this brilliance, perhaps your brilliance, to emerge.
00:01:41
Speaker
This is a conversation about leadership and about stewardship, about continuing to grow with both courage and with care.
Steve House and the Uphill Athlete Newsletter
00:01:49
Speaker
I'm Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mount.
00:02:02
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan. Head on over to UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:02:19
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. That's UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
John's Diverse Life Experiences
00:02:36
Speaker
John Windsor, it's so great to have you. Thanks for coming on the Voice of the Mountains podcast. Hey, thanks, Steve. I get to do this a lot these days. And it's when you called to to you know want to have a conversation, i was like, wow, this is such an honor. I just you know i was going through the catalog and listening to some of the other ones. And whether it's you know it's Will or Conrad or Rick or Peter or you know like or any any of these other guys, they're just they've all been such deep, good friends for so long. We've done so much together. and it's just an honor to be a part of the crew and, and honestly, you know, obviously, you know, so our our long relationship, just really psyched to have this conversation.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah. And it is, you know, we've talked about this, off the record too, but, you know, particularly i think of Peter, I don't know exactly, Peter Metcalf, I don't know exactly Peter's age anymore, but, you know, he's definitely like kind of a generation or generation and a half, maybe two you older than I am. And he just had 70th birthday this summer.
00:03:36
Speaker
Oh, he's 70. Okay. So yeah, a couple, generation a half to two generations. And so he, is part of this group and you're a part of this too, who just did such who, and I think it was partially, you know, you guys were all incredible at your sports as climbers and, you know, different skiing and all these different ways.
00:03:57
Speaker
And this whole thing about professional climbing just wasn't a thing. Like it was, like it was just so small back then. And you all had these amazing careers and professional careers and in different ways. And, you know, get into yours in a second. But let me start off by just sort of what I thought I'd do is there's so many different areas of of your life and your experience and your intellect and your your professional path that I'd love to dig into.
Pivotal Childhood and Career Anecdotes
00:04:26
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So let me just start by.
00:04:29
Speaker
throwing out a bunch of snapshots and then I want you to tell me what the thread with all of these things are. Yeah, totally, man. you've You've talked about yourself as an intense young kid who would sprint away from other kids and that gave you the sense of feeling. You talked about growing up in a family that was into publishing and you've worked every job in the newsroom.
00:04:56
Speaker
You wrote the first of what I think is now six books, which was titled Fitness on the Road, which is sort of apropos. I didn't actually realize that until I started digging a little bit for you know interviewing you for this.
00:05:11
Speaker
you You went out to set a FKT with a couple other guys on Kilimanjaro. I mean, this is like 30 years before anyone knew what an FKT was. Like it was just that that that wasn't in the lexicon when but and whatever that was 87 ish you bought a magazine called women's sports and fitness which you turned into a very successful publication and sort of rode that hole and supported that whole wave of of women coming into sports through the 80s and 90s in a big way and allowed them to tell it their stories from their first person experience you
00:05:51
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were named, your one of your agencies was named a global creative
Creative Achievements and Crowdsourcing
00:05:55
Speaker
agency of the decade. You guys did creative work for brands like Microsoft, Volkswagen, Best Buy, Domino's Pizza.
00:06:04
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You also were a husband who, and you've spoken very openly and profoundly about this, with of ah of a woman who suffered from severe mental illness and took her own life as a result of that struggle.
00:06:19
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You survived an avalanche. You, at least one that I know of. You were an early board member and long time long serving board member for Black Time and Equipment. And of course, we already mentioned Peter Metcalf. He may come up again, but you we talked extensively about the journey of Black Time and You, you're a avid surfer, you, that guy that has paddled out again after getting worked really hard by a wave.
00:06:43
Speaker
You founded the first crowdsourced ad agency in the world. And through that you won accounts like the Dish Network, which has an advertising budget of, I think like a hundred million dollars a year and Harley Davidson, just one of the most iconic brands in, in, in the world.
00:07:01
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And you're also a Harvard researcher and you launched at Harvard ah or helped to launch a laboratory for innovation science at Harvard and worked with teams at NASA and all kinds of incredible things.
00:07:14
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You're now a seasoned founder. You've found and sold a number of companies over your career and you're really in this phase where I see you that you're just really reaching out and helping young companies, young entrepreneurs embrace the chaos of of business and helping people understand what work is and what work means in the modern era.
The Importance of Relationships
00:07:35
Speaker
So what is what is the thread that connects all of these? version ver That's a lot. That's a lot of different things, a lot of different experiences, John. And and they're also they're so interesting. what's What's the through line?
00:07:50
Speaker
Oh man, you know, that's, but that's the thing I'm struggling with right now or trying to figure out, I think, yeah, I think, you know, I've been so blessed and, and I think the thing that, uh, have, has always been the most important to me are relationships, you know, and I, I kind of came to, um, the climbing world and, you know, even though I was really deeply connected to the outdoors and,
00:08:17
Speaker
in my childhood because my dad and his hunting and our adventures. It's really the people, right? It's whether, you know, it's working with Will Gad as a young punk, but you know, sport climber who was my editor at Rocky Mountain Sports and you know And and and always I always want to you know be around people that just pushed the envelope for me intellectually and pushed the envelope for me physically, you know whether it was, again, Will and I you know started paragliding together you know as as kind of the first few lessons with Granger Banks out at North Boulder Park. And and so that's been the big driver. I think you know the thing i'm I'm working on the seventh book, and i'm I'm really intrigued by this idea that, and I think it's it's a good way to kind of capsulate my career, is that
00:09:02
Speaker
You know, I think that um a lot of companies have been very successful because they're operationally excellent when they get big, right? And I think there's a time and place in that for culture. And and one of my buddies that at at Harvard, Mike Tushman, who's kind of the grandfather of organizational innovation, he kind of puts it into two a um categories of exploit somebody who's operationally excellent and can do a great job and explore.
00:09:28
Speaker
and And then trying to create ambidextrous organizations where you can kind of do both. And I you know i would say my career has been very ambidextrous. and And the thing that's really pushed me is to be around excellent people that push me.
00:09:44
Speaker
um i like kind of the zero to one thing, um whether it's even academically being with folks that are kind of rogue. im I'm with a bunch of rogue element inside HBS that are really pushing the envelope.
00:09:57
Speaker
And it just makes me laugh because it's it's very much similar to all the experience I've had in business and trying to do new things, even in the outdoors. Right. You kind of, you know, when we went to Kilimanjaro to do that, Kevin Cooney and I did, we would ask all the guides, like, how long does it take? You know, and and people were like, well, it's six days. Even the guys that lived on the mountain every day. And, you know, the idea of trying to do it in 12 hours was just so weird to them. They didn't even understand kind of the the mindset difference. So.
00:10:26
Speaker
So I've been playing with this idea around just this this thing, the explorer's mindset and versus kind of the more you know operational mindset.
Adapting to AI and Exploring New Strategies
00:10:35
Speaker
And think that's, in my recent work, that's super important because I think that and And just for context, the work I do now is how organizations will adapt or survive in this age of AI. and And I think it's really, really important to think about, you know, and sometimes in history, there's a certain kind of ah organis organism, organization that really thrives. And for the last few decades, it's been operational excellence, whether it's Walmart or it's
00:11:02
Speaker
you know, large ah software companies. But I think we're entering this phase where the explorer's mindset is really critical, right? You can't think about... um executing on a strategy. i think somehow, you know, what's happened is that strategy back in the day, right? Whether it was Yvonne Schnarr or Peter Metcalf, a strategy was just a how, like the vision and the mission and the purpose was like, that was the most important thing, whether it was on a climb or anywhere else. And and somehow now with professional managers, it's become the what.
00:11:37
Speaker
and And so people are trying to ask like, well, how do i get AI to fit my strategy? And and I've been kind of ah a lone voice in the woods, like hearkening back to a lot of the the expeditions and and projects I've been involved with out in the outdoors of saying, well, maybe it's, let's think about the purpose and why are we even here? Why do we exist? And then maybe we need a new strategy, a new how to to figure out, ah you know, how we get that done. And so I would say that's kind of the,
00:12:05
Speaker
the theme of my career is I've just loved being a little bit beyond the horizon and and coming back and kind of discovering new things.
00:12:17
Speaker
and And I've tried to set myself up in a place that ah working with a lot of people that are a lot smarter than me, that I can bring these ideas back and then they can help me operationalize. I mean, it you know can be things like, i mean, one of the things you mentioned, my work at Crispin,
00:12:32
Speaker
One of the things i loved was, you know, Bridget and I went to Paris and we rode Vila Bikes, which were bike, you know, sharing their bike sharing program. No place else in the world had that. And, you know, I was super honored that come back to k Crispin and work with my partner, Alex Bogusky. And for me to say, hey, let's start a bike sharing program as an ad agency.
00:12:51
Speaker
you know, and, and he was into it and
Empathy and Overcoming Challenges
00:12:54
Speaker
we did that and it blew up, it blew up globally. And so those are the kind of examples of, you know, how can I be out on the edge and doing things to kind of feed my soul, but yet come back and be a part of a community and actually operationalize those things, right? Not, not just make them one-offs and be able to really do some great stuff out of that and change culture. How much of this,
00:13:16
Speaker
is created connected to that intense energetic kid whose energy sometimes felt unwelcome. and i And spoiler alert, this has come up with basically every guest on this podcast, right? Like this this question in some form, because so many of the people that have have been on the Voice of the Mountains do come in just sort of wired this way. And they often experience, especially his childhood,
00:13:44
Speaker
feeling like they're outsiders, feeling like they don't fit in, feeling like they're not welcome. They're, they're too much for people. Is, is that, take me into that and in your experience.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I, I always, you know, i don't know. I, I think it was a lot of it, just the way I grew up. I mean, you know, one of the things that I really admired about my dad is, you know, he got kind of stuck in a job in the Midwest, taking over a family newspaper you Yeah, what he really loved is he loved the idea of being outside and being, you know, being in the mountains. and And so that really, you know, that really set a tone for me for, you know, for my ah seventh, I guess it was probably like my 12th birthday birthday.
00:14:28
Speaker
we went on a you know we went an elk hunt in in Canada with bows. And I'll never forget, I almost cut my finger off. And you know we had to ride a horse out a day and a half to the hospital. and My dad was always up for it, right? That was just the way that I kind of ah you know kind of grew up. And so i think that i had the seeds of this kind of Ambidexterity, you know, dad was very serious in in the business world and and I got to observe that, but I also got to see this world where he would go out and lose himself. He, you know' be gone every, every fall since 1963, somewhere in Alaska or or in Canada, you know, really, you know, enjoying his time at outdoors.
00:15:11
Speaker
um And so, you know, i think there was that, but it was also, i think for a lot of us, that have been entrepreneurs and love the mountains. You know, there's also, there's this otherness that we feel, but there's also, I think it's a lot of that's not just imposed upon us. I think it's, it's self-generated as well. It's something like, Hey, we want to go do something big.
00:15:33
Speaker
Like, you know, we want to make them, we want to kind of bend the arc of history in some way, you know, in our little, our little way. And, and I don't know what, what that is in me that wants to do that, but it feels like I almost have ah an obligation to do something and, and do it in a different way to show that it can be done in a different way, that things are new. And so,
00:15:56
Speaker
Um, that's, that's kind of been a big driver for me for sure. I think a theme, so i don't know if the kid, if i don't know if me as a kid running away was to avoid something, i think was more of the excitement of kind of getting to someplace new and describing it and being able to shape it and bring it back and and and shape culture. So it wasn't necessarily a problem you were running from. it was just a force that was within you and it compelled you forward, like just And that was enough, like just to go forward and then find a place and have that joy of discovery.
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, I love, you know, I mean, one of my favorite authors is Rilke and he talks about and some of his some of his stuff in, you know, Letters to a Young Poet about you know, the awful experience of, of, you know, being in a room and close to the window because you're terrified of feeling the skeletons in the room and, and, but what, what more, you know, there, there's nothing more important than like figuring out what the dragons are and going deep into that. And that's, I've always been really seduced by that. was like, never really, you know, i probably am not,
00:17:04
Speaker
why I'm not. I'm not good at going deep into things for a long time. Instead of asking why, I've always challenged myself to ask why not. you know that's And that's been a driver through my intellectual work at Harvard and through my you know through my work and as an entrepreneur and certainly in the mountains of like, well, why not? Why can't you go do that and put these, link these things together or do it in a new way and and change the mindset around around something?
00:17:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that idea of you know why versus why not is really powerful because I think that there's, you mentioned zero to one earlier. I think that that's where so many of us get stuck. I mean, we overthink it or you know or we talk about it with somebody and they tell us we're crazy. So we decide it's crazy. And it just, so many things sort of get stillborn in a sense at that at that stage of the gestation and they never quite come fully to life.
00:17:56
Speaker
I totally agree. i totally agree. It's funny because i if I, reflect on my career, the best motivators were ones when people told me I couldn't do something. Like, you know, one of my friends told me for my first business book and second book, like, oh, you're not smart enough to write a book. Or, you know, when I bought women's sports and
Learning from Failures and Risks
00:18:14
Speaker
fitness and I had a regional title, they were like, You're not, you know, you don't know what you're doing in national publishing. You could never do that. And to me, it was just like, ah that's great. That's exactly what I needed to hear.
00:18:25
Speaker
i needed to hear that there's no way I'll be able to do that. And just so i can really dig in and figure figure my own way out. So I've had that experience as well. And with, with exactly that, where it's just like,
00:18:39
Speaker
I don't think I immediately recognized it as being that juicy kernel of motivation I needed. But over time, I was like, yeah, that's that's really like I really get it's so somehow motivating me to to to keep showing up and keep digging in because there is ah is a way I just have to. Nobody's figured it out yet. Exactly. There's this fundamental truth.
00:19:04
Speaker
at least I see it as a truth, you can shoot holes in this as you see fit, but that, you know, the harder problem is to solve, the more value you create. For sure. As you work through problems, because it's always, it's never just one, it's a series of problems that, you know, every time you hit something hard that feels impossible, know,
00:19:24
Speaker
I tend to tell myself like, oh, this is really good because this is where 80% of the people who get this far are going to turn around. But I'm not going to turn around. I'm just going like toiling and I'm going to figure it out eventually. And ah and I think that that's like a ah ah really.
00:19:42
Speaker
For me, that's been a really powerful framework. Also in in you know trying to run a business and solve create value for athletes. And you know it's like, well, how do we do this?
00:19:54
Speaker
you know We've got some stuff that I've been working on for a while in in that way. And it's been really hard to do. And i' like this is great because it's going to take other people a long time to do it as well, or at least long time.
00:20:08
Speaker
So i think I think that that's really interesting, that that motivation. And I don't, I used to judge it as sort of dark or negative, like that kind of motivation, but I've i've stopped judging it and just let it be now.
00:20:21
Speaker
Have you had any experience with that? Do you Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I had a you know, like I'm always in awe of of those of us who decide to take, you know, the alternative route. And I was just in in Portugal and went out to Nazare just to see to see the wave. Right. And i was in awe of Garrett McNamara. like what ah Like what a crazy story of him just going to this fishing village and just...
00:20:46
Speaker
You know, like the wave looks impossible. It looks like this massive, you know, at the time when we were there, it was 30 feet, but it would like this huge closeout. And for him just to work it and work it and work it and work it for years, you know, and just figure it out. And, you know, nobody else was willing to do that.
00:21:03
Speaker
and And I love that, right? I love the fact that somebody's just so gritty and determined to figure it out when everybody else and all the other signals are saying, don't do it or... So tell me more about this story. He discovered this or heard about this big wave and went out and figured out how to surf it. Is that the story?
00:21:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, the story. and And then now there's this big documentary on, on HBO, one hundred foot wave. And, you know, Garrett was a a good surfer, but, you know, hadn't really proven himself and and struggled. And then, you know Laird Hamilton and that those guys discovered toe and surfing and Garrett really took it seriously and got really, really good at it and was world champion for a couple of times. And, you know,
00:21:41
Speaker
Then this and wonderful story of some fishermen from Nazare, Portugal, sent him a note because he was all over everywhere as the best big wave surfer inviting him. And he didn't even believe it. It took five years for him to look at the pictures. And finally, his wife pushed him to say, we should go visit Nazare.
00:21:59
Speaker
And, you know, he, I mean, the wave, when you're in Nazare, you're on the beach and it's right there. like it's just down and you can see it. you can see the point everything. like it's a hidden place, but it takes like anything, right? It takes like, you got to get in the water and you got to experience it and you got to, you know, get terrified and you got to make mistakes. And over a few years, just him hacking together the resources to make it happen,
00:22:24
Speaker
has put this whole town on the map and it's really created an unbelievable economic value for the people of Nazare and it's become and become an epicenter for surfing really, really big waves. And it's just really awesome that you know somebody had the courage to not go shef surf Jaws or Mavericks or you know the tried and true places, but really go off the map and you know make a really difficult path for themselves to do something. and I love that kind of explorer's vision, the the you know the willingness to kind of say, I don't need to take the path that's already been cut for me. I can go take these tools that I've learned in these great places and be able to go you know do that in a new in a new place.
00:23:05
Speaker
I think it won't come as surprise to anyone listening to this that grit is part of being an entrepreneur, part of you know sure bending the arc of history in some small way by our presence here.
00:23:19
Speaker
One of the things that I think they might not be so obvious, but I really resonates with me is the power of empathy. And, you know, you've talked really, Openly and of of powerfully, i think. and and And I've told you this before about your wife Bridget's battle with, you know, she had a late-in-life onset bipolar disorder.
00:23:45
Speaker
And she took her own life. And this is really not easy territory to enter.
Impact of Personal Struggles on Growth
00:23:51
Speaker
And you've chosen to share it. And I... When did...
00:23:56
Speaker
It's been, you know, there's been water under the bridge now. Yeah. And I know that personally that you've had opportunity to heal a lot of that, but also something like that. And it's it's not, it's always a part of you.
00:24:09
Speaker
You, you, so you said that, that, that taught you something you couldn't have learned any other way. What, what, what was that that you, you learned or what, what died in you when she died? What, what was reborn in you through that?
00:24:26
Speaker
this journey of, of grief and, and, and healing? Yeah. And those are, those are really wonderful questions. You know, for me, i would say I've always had this weird character. And I think a lot of us that, that do the things that, that we do, you know, we, we do have a lot of empathy because we've gone through a lot and a lot of people haven't made it through. And and so, you know, it's driven by that, but,
00:24:50
Speaker
I think that that idea we talked about a few minutes ago is not excluding an experience, you know, and it's like as tragic as... as Bridget's journey with mental illness was and her suicide, it was, it was, you know, it was an honor to be there with her and it was terrifying. Oh my God, I've never been more terrified in my life. Just, you know, the, the partner Bridget and I were married for 32 years and getting like a lot late onset bipolar was just, you know, her, she had a three-year journey through the darkest of times and none of us knew what was happening. And
00:25:27
Speaker
you know, it took me a long time. i so i probably will never completely heal from it. You know, it's a scar that happened, I think it starts with acceptance, right? That we're here for such a limited time and it's, it's our choice, right? It's our choice on how we, how we live in the world.
00:25:46
Speaker
I think, you know, we're entering that age, you and I, I'm a little ahead of you. And I just, I, I'm just sad for a lot of the people that we have known over the years that just seem so desperate to re-grasp what they've accomplished in the past or live back there. And it's just like, it, it's,
00:26:03
Speaker
it's just sad because there's such a beautiful world out here to like explore and touch and push beyond. And so I would say, you know, Bridget tried super hard. It was an honor to on that journey. I don't,
00:26:21
Speaker
I don't see it as any other, any other outcome. You know, there was just, we all tried super hard and it it is what it it is. You know, it's, it's like, it's like, it reminds me a lot of being in that avalanche with, you know, that industry trip we were on with Jack Tackle and Kim Miller and yeah all the, you know, when we were all,
00:26:43
Speaker
12 or 14 of us took a thousand foot ride. You know, um, it was the same thing. We did everything right. Right. We we dug with the right pits. We had the right people. We did the right systems and still you have danger that happens. and For skiing with super experienced mountain guides. Super experienced. the area. I mean, it was, yeah it was Ken, right? It was one of those rich, rich Marshall, rich, rich Marshall. Okay. It was with, yeah, yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, we did everything right. And yet it still happens. And I was really fascinated even back then of like, you know I think there are four or five five couples on the trip and and three divorced after that. And and a lot of those a lot of the relationships have fell apart because of different willingness to accept the past. One person in a relationship would be like, holy shit, I'm never going outdoors again, or I'm never going into the backcountry again. And the other person would be like, yeah, it happens. It's the way it it goes. And
00:27:40
Speaker
It was just unfortunate that there was so much collateral damage from something. And, you know, and I saw that with Bridget. I mean, I can't tell you how many people, um you know, took sides in a really ridiculous thing or blamed me or blamed, you know, just this weird thing, this kind of cause and effect.
00:27:58
Speaker
um i And i for a while, I was really hurt by that um because I tried super hard. but I can imagine that would be hurtful. Yeah. Yeah. So many friends that I lost, but on the other hand, I'm just, I'm sad for them, right? I'm sad for them that they are holding onto that and that they can't get over that. And the way I look at it is, you know, Hey, you know, we both had the experience of some people's, you know, they're bright lights and sometimes the brightest, you know, candle burns the shortest. And my God, you know, what a great honor it is to have a journey. You know, I had a journey with Bridget for 32 years and it was amazing.
00:28:35
Speaker
you know Since i've i've remarried I've remarried Emily, and Emily's equally as amazing. And i I think that's the thing that I've just loved is like, holy shit, like how did i how did I do this? Get to marry two amazing women in a lifetime. like I am the luckiest guy in the world. and and And it's very different, right? It's very different experiences. It's challenging in different ways.
00:28:58
Speaker
And I love that. you know it's I think it's the it's the same thing. You know, I got into surfing late in life. And, um you know, when I sold the the publishing company, i went to Mexico and, you know, really decided to start exploring that. And it was so hard. you know i think a lot of us that grew up in the mountains, just you get in the ocean was like, wait a second, I
New Experiences and Beginner's Mindset
00:29:23
Speaker
can't control anything? I can't stand up? like What the hell? and And yet it's been so gratifying. you know It's been so gratifying to be able to discover new nuances. I think i think what's interesting to me
00:29:37
Speaker
is is that beginner's mind, whether it's in relationships or it's in activities, like there's this freshness that you have when you start something new. And it could be just a new climb in a new area or being you know at a new break, but there's a beginner's mind that has to happen that you know it's everything's so new and fresh and scary. and And that's a really exhilarating thing if you allow yourself to to live into that, right?
00:30:05
Speaker
Yeah. And it's very difficult to have that with something that you've been doing for your whole life. You know, for like for me, for me with climbing, for example, like, I mean, I don't,
00:30:17
Speaker
I get to experience that a little bit through my kids. Cause take, just taking them climbing again and like they're, they're young. And so they're just learning basic things and it's like, Oh yeah. And it kind of brings me, brings me back into that. But I, I still am the person that I am and I have the experiences I had. So I can't,
00:30:37
Speaker
fully reoccupy that, but I can appreciate that. And that's one of the things that I really like about, um you know, coaching and running uphill athlete is I'm much more in this beginner's position and it's really, really fun. There's just so much to learn. Yeah, it must be fun. it must be fun because I so admire what you've done and helping so many people and everybody has a different approach and a different problem and a different goal and trying to hack that and figure out exactly what the components are to make them or to help them achieve what they want to achieve must be a really cool thing.
00:31:08
Speaker
Yeah. Every problem is different, right? Like that's, that's you know, it is and it isn't, right? Like there's basic frameworks, basic principles that are universal, but then the the individuals, the people are are all different, like you said, for all those reasons.
00:31:24
Speaker
you You won't be surprised to know that you know this side topic of risk mortality has come up on this Voice the Mountains a number of times, given the the list of of guests. I think it's, and you mentioned this earlier about how different people, after particularly after this avalanche, was it in the Selkirks? Is that where you guys were? Yeah, i was in Selkirks, right, 93. 93. You had different people and it was you had these sort of almost A-B tests of these couples that would react very differently. and And I know exactly what you're talking about. I've so been through this with both personally and with other people and know exactly what you're talking about.
00:32:01
Speaker
oh what what is what has changed with your relationship for risk with risk? Because that is very personal and everyone has, as you pointed out, rightly so, everyone has a different sort of response to these, let's call them near-death experiences, for lack of a better word. and it could be a near-death of yourself or it could be the actual death of someone you're close to. i consider that to have a similar impact, like your best friend or your climbing partner, maybe if they weren't even climbing with you. Or maybe they were standing right next to you. But all of these, and and then in in our lifetimes, I know we've both experienced this multiple times, you know, more times than we care to recount. That's ah that's ah that's an outlier. let's Let's set that aside. What was your personal experience with that?
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, I would say, you know, i would say i look at risk very broadly and, ah you know, risk is a really important thing, you know, whether it's, you know, climbing something that's difficult for me or, um, riding my bike really fast downhill or, you know, trying a new sport, like, you know, riding motorcycles or, or whatever.
00:33:09
Speaker
Um, I've tried to really break down what that feels like, what that means. And what I found is that you can you can put yourself in the same situation intellectually and spiritually. um i think that...
00:33:27
Speaker
As I recount my experience at Harvard, I mean, I'm just a dirtbag climber. Why the hell would Harvard want me to come help them out? And so I feel this, right? Like, how do I be authentic to myself and still like be there? And what when I've given up, you know, again, you know, being kind of more grounded,
00:33:45
Speaker
And really trying to think about the deeper mechanisms. I fucking love it. It's so awesome to be in a room when you're the dumbest person for sure, you know, and being able to just be really curious and really open to like, it's totally cool. I'm not very smart Yeah.
00:34:02
Speaker
But when you come from a perspective of that and you're just you just kind of really enjoy the challenge and the risk of like, I could sound super stupid to somebody you know who I'm trying to gain their trust or you know understand a big problem globally.
00:34:19
Speaker
It feels kind of the same as the risks we've taken in the athletic you know and the in our athletic careers. And and i would i I just find that that's the mechanism that I'm really turned on by. So I might not push myself as hard and have the same risk tolerance physically for a lot of reasons.
00:34:36
Speaker
But I also can transfer that over to be really challenging, you know, or challenge myself from a, from a risk standpoint, intellectually, in relationships and things like that. And I think that's, that brings me as much joy.
00:34:51
Speaker
you know, so one of the things i don't know if you and I've talked about, but I had prostate cancer this
Facing Health Challenges and Insights Gained
00:34:55
Speaker
summer. And so I had my prostate removed, um, in July and i found it so curious, right? I found it so curious, um,
00:35:04
Speaker
I've kind of really enjoyed the new experiences. I mean, you know, there's so much fear around cancer and there's so much terrifying, you know, people are so terrified. So I didn't tell anybody before, because I was like, I don't want to deal with it intellectually. I'm like, ah you know, the the burden of like trying to keep up people up to speed. and And so, you know, something I'd been dealing with for a year and a half or so.
00:35:28
Speaker
And then once I had been involved, you know, going through it, even through like the incontinence and things like that, it's kind of been like, wow, my body's changing. And it's such a weird thing. And it's super interesting to experience. and and And one of the things that I've really come back to is, have you ever watched Anderson Cooper's um podcast series around, you know, death and and grieving? don't know if you've seen that.
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah, there's a great there's a great interview with Stephen Colbert. And Stephen Colbert had a situation where his his dad and his, I think his brother and sister, or maybe just his brother, um when he was 10, died in a plane wreck.
00:36:08
Speaker
And you know people, his perspective is so beautiful. And it's one that I've tried to adopt. And that is, he said, you know people say, oh, I'm so sorry for you. And I'm so, you know like you know there's so much um empathy. you know and And people try really hard. and And and they people feel very sorry for you. But as Colbert said in the interview, he's like, I feel sorry for for everybody that hasn't had the chance to experience the whole the whole spectrum of emotions and emotions of like losing somebody when you're young. like What does that mean? And i I feel very honored, whether it is like having to be having to go through the difficulty of a partner that struggled and then eventually committed suicide, or having cancer and having that experience. I mean, it just, whether they're positive experiences or they're negative experiences, they're still human experiences and they add to the overall perspective you have in the world. And I, I'm really turned on by trying to, experience those things and trying to be involved, you know, and and and not just experience them as a flippant, like, I'm going to go do that, but more meditatively of what does this feel like? How does it feel to do that? I mean, you and I have both wrote written books and I don't know anything harder than writing a book in my life. It is so hard. And so you have to dedicate yourself so much and everybody's taking shots at like, this is good, this is bad, all that stuff.
00:37:36
Speaker
But man, I'm so glad I've had those experiences, right? They're awesome when they're over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's this, as collaborators, we have this amnesia and then we we do ah do it again a couple of years later. Right, exactly, exactly, exactly.
00:37:53
Speaker
I think that's such an incredible, i just want to touch back on, I mean, what you were saying a moment ago because so many incredible insights and such beautiful insights and so much to learn there and unpack.
00:38:07
Speaker
I think that how do you, for me, the key thing that you said in all of this was the that to be almost meditative in your openness to the experiences and deeply try to feel what it feels like, what that human experience that you're going through is.
00:38:29
Speaker
And because I think that so many of us are armored up you know probably from childhood or whatever, and we're we've walled off emotions and and because they're bad. We've labeled them as bad so we don't go in that area. but That's like a ah closed door. and We don't go through it. yeah Yeah, and so and And I tried so hard, like we were just talking about mortality, and I tried so hard to do that with the friends I lost in the mountains early on.
00:39:03
Speaker
And it was so hard for me to, it was so crushing, really. Like it felt soul crushing to to lose some of these friends. And it's like, I mean, wasn't my brother or my sister or my father like what Stephen Colbert experienced, but these were like really good friends that were just, you know,
00:39:25
Speaker
gone ripped away and i tried so like those experiences i think what they teach is that there's no way it's it's so intense there's no way to wall it off right you can't not feel it you can't not experience it you don't have to have this meditative approach to it because it just it's so intense it just like comes right through whatever armor you put up. It's just like, it's coming through, it's coming at you, it's hitting you and there's no hiding.
Empathy in Marketing and Business Challenges
00:39:53
Speaker
And I had to do that a few times, you know, where I went through this, like trying, trying to keep it out, not being able to, and then like feeling like I had to give up, you know what I mean? Like i had to surrender.
00:40:10
Speaker
yeah And then after I did that, it was like, oh I actually it didn't get worse. It actually somehow gets better, which is strange. And and it was just sort of the the opposite of what I expected. Of course, it took kind of years for all of this to unfold.
00:40:29
Speaker
And i I hear a similar experience in yours and like how you're open to all of these You know, I mean, who wants have prostate cancer and go through incontinence? I mean, what, you know, or have their wife commit suicide. I love my depends. I love my depends.
00:40:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, these are some of the like, you know, if you had told me any of these things, I don't know, even 10 years ago, I'd just been like, i don't I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have been able to handle having a conversation with you about that. Like, I would have been so impacted, right? Mm-hmm.
00:41:02
Speaker
And I think it's so interesting how vital that mindset is to working through hard things, solving problems, and i think building empathy.
00:41:16
Speaker
You know, and I think one of the things with marketers that has always been fascinating to me, and I learned this in my time at Patagonia when I started to work with the marketing department. And there were, I started to come and come for the first time in my life there. I came into contact people with people who had like this empathy superpower that was just like to me as a person who had been walling off.
00:41:40
Speaker
things and other people's emotions, my own emotions, and to be around people who could just like completely read every emotion in the room, like in a heartbeat. I was like, what? Like what?
00:41:53
Speaker
where are you getting this information? And then just slowly starting to to learn. And then, of course, they're using it also for commercial purposes, which is, I think, one of the things that makes a really good marketer, right, is someone who is empathetic and it can understand how ah words or or images or or moving images can make people feel, right? Like that's what you have to be able to understand as ah as a good marketer. and And I think that that comes from having...
00:42:21
Speaker
to learn about these experiences, like what Stephen Gobert said, what you said. I mean, I think that a lot of lot of those things kind of come together for me right now as you're talking about that. It's really so thank you for that. That's amazing. Yeah, man. Yeah. but As you talk, one of the things I reflect on is like, you know, I think like you, you know, like all of us have done big things. We know the importance of preparation and we we take it very seriously. And We're really thoughtful about it. And so I had this experience a couple of years ago when I did my first psychedelic journey. The guy who is going to guide me on this and this journey was like, I want you to prepare a shrine with everything that's important for you in your life. And so, you know, like you would do or most of my friends, you know, that are that have had similar journeys. We take it really seriously. Right. We write down lists and we then we look at items and we create, you know, like it's like weeks worth of work. right to to figure out exactly how i structure this shrine with all the important events in my life and all the important you know people and you know some of it's very egotistical they're our accomplishments quote unquote and some are these deep wounds that we've had because of our relationships and and so i did this right i spent all this time and i put it up and and part way through the journey the the guy was like look at your shrine what do you think and and i literally just busted out laughing
00:43:36
Speaker
And I just, i I, you know, the conclusion I came with when I had the, the, the the help of ah of the psychedelics was that it doesn't matter. Like, it's awesome. It's such an honor to do that. But the only reality that we have in life is this moment right here.
00:43:57
Speaker
the the The conversation you and I are having right now, it is the only reality that we live in. And so if you can do that, if you can say, man, i am so lucky to have all these different things that have added, know,
00:44:10
Speaker
to my ability to perceive what's happening and add maybe something constructive to the moment that I'm living in now, that's awesome. But that's what it is, right? It's just this kind of really beautiful tapestry that we've had the opportunity to weave and be a part of that gives us the ability to show up in a new way right now, right here. And and and that's what I really love, right? That's what I i crave, those experiences, these conversations.
00:44:38
Speaker
not for honoring or storytelling about the incredible experiences we've had, but more like, how does that influence our conversation? What does it mean? How can what can we share from our own journeys that maybe somebody listening could, you know, take something away and it could help them have a brighter day or laugh a little bit more or, you know, take themselves a little bit less seriously. And that's my hope at least.
00:45:04
Speaker
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. You know, it's it's that, think it's, I don't know where it is, but to me it's in like the Old Testament or something where this this parable of like, you know, I asked God for wisdom and he gave me problems to solve.
00:45:24
Speaker
And it's like, I asked God for empathy and he gave me tragedy. You know, ah yaha you know it's like It's like, it's not really what you're asking for directly, but it this is actually how you get it. And I think that that's that's one of the one of the things that I think climbing taught me was, and and because it just beats you over the head with it relentlessly, is that it's just, you you you have to always be in the process. And and it used to...
00:45:53
Speaker
really annoy me as a particularly when I was working more in my the professional era of my climbing career where because the the journalists only cared about what you just done and what you're going to do next and they had no sense of like what where are you now what are you working on now what's important to you now and I I didn't know how to articulate that, hey, this is the questions you should be asking. Like, don't ask me about what my next trip is next summer. Like, the chances of that even happening are like, you know, one in five. And then there's all these other variables. And maybe there's going to be a Maoist revolt and again in in Nepal. We're going to have to go somewhere else. like and But what was interesting is like, what are you going through now? What are you working on now? How are you improving this year? What what what are you working on? And it's like being an athlete. You're always...
00:46:41
Speaker
you know, there's always something to work on. There's always, and and I think that so many of these interesting, how did you put it, this tapestry of life, there's so many, and I feel this way too. I i so wish I had, I've said this before on this podcast, but I so wish I had like a hundred lifetimes because there's so many different things I would like to live that I just feel like I don't have enough time to live all of these things. So it's a little frustrating, but.
00:47:06
Speaker
I love, i think, you know, one of the things that that's one of the things that sports gives us, and you and I have talked about Nordic skiing, you know, I i just find it fascinating when you get something into into something so much, you know, and I don't care if it's rock climbing in the way you look at rock and you feel it, or it's back to Nordic skiing and, you know, like the art of riding a flat ski, right?
00:47:28
Speaker
It's existential, right? It is like the coolest fucking thing in the world. It is so hard to achieve, but man, when you get in a really good V2 and you're in a race and you are flying and you are on a flat ski that continues to accelerate,
00:47:45
Speaker
I don't know how to describe it. I can't describe it. You know, it's the same thing as surfing a big wave, right? When you're in the sweet spot and it's just this, that's what I crave, right? I crave that. And I think it's all, it's, it's all throughout all of our lives. And we just have to pay attention enough to the moment to find those little flat skis in our lives, right? How do we get there and glide and continue to accelerate? Yeah.
00:48:10
Speaker
Yeah, and you know we were talking about this earlier, and I want to bring it back to your work a little bit because I want to ask ah a few more questions about that, is this idea of you know how did you put it, explore and exploit, and being ambidextrous, being able to do both. And one of the things that I think a lot of people in all kinds of professional careers, they they go through a period where they explore, and it kind of leads them into a cul-de-sac.
00:48:39
Speaker
Right. Like you you get good at doing something, but eventually it sort of is a dead end in some way. And then if you if you want to stay there, that's fine.
00:48:49
Speaker
Like you can stay there and you can keep doing that thing at that rate and you can live your life and it's pretty predictable. But sometimes people want to like find the next level and then you have to kind of figure out how to climb out of this cul-de-sac.
00:49:05
Speaker
And And that actually requires different people in in many times, and you know different team members, different coworkers, a different structure at work.
00:49:17
Speaker
ah and And this is something that you know I've personally been you know, with, with uphill athlete, we're this extremely flat organization. That's how we want to be like all the coaches get paid the same for the same work there. Of course, we have different coaches with different levels of experience and different expertise in certain things, but we come together as a team to help solve problems. And it's like, this is like what we talked about, what we want, what our purpose is as a group of coaches. Right. And, and that's, but, but we're, We're also, i'm I'm looking a little bit into the future. Maybe it's a year, maybe it's five years. I don't know. But at some point in the not too distant future, as I see us continuing to grow at the rate where just, if we just continue our current growth and bringing in new athletes,
00:50:05
Speaker
that flat structure isn't going to serve any well anymore. We're going to need to evolve that. And so I'm starting to have this conversation with people like, how do we do this and maintain our values of being ah peer, a group of peers and equals? And this is the kind of stuff that you think about. I mean, at Harvard, you're, I may get the the terminology wrong, so please correct me, but you know, you have this project called open assembly and,
00:50:32
Speaker
and you're working on open innovation.
Innovation and Restructuring with AI
00:50:34
Speaker
And my understanding is that you're fundamentally trying to create opportunities for people with adjacent knowledge to a traditional silo.
00:50:45
Speaker
and that with the And you have this beautiful summation where you- Yeah, brilliance is abundant and opportunities are scarce. Brilliance is abundant and opportunities are scarce. yeah And, you know, how does this, like when you are thinking of, this is what you're thinking about all day with what kind of the problem like i as a small business owner I'm having. And of course, it much, much larger, more important organizations than ours. But the,
00:51:15
Speaker
How do you go about thinking about that as a team of researchers? Like, what does that actually look like? What are you what are you studying? No, that's a great question. you know, I think one of the things I love about the Harvard work is that everybody's kind of doing their own thing, right? Everybody's kind of thrown into the cauldron and chasing their own, you know, their own creative niche and those that create momentum get rewarded. you know They get more research dollars and more you know prestigious you know
00:51:47
Speaker
in prestigious journals and more cultural momentum and all those things. I think for me, you know i think we're in the beginning of a revolution AI, you know and there's a lot of other things we could talk about, you know the change in culture and those things. But I think if we focus on you know what's happening in the workforce and what's happening for large organizations and small organizations ah like yours, I think we have to start with this idea. And, you know, this is just influenced by my own life, this idea that brilliance is abundant, opportunities are scarce. And I would say that the place that that's really been most profound that I've felt is ah adopting Harry and Charlie from the far east of Russia, from Vladivostok and And, you know, they're 24 years old. And so I often think, you know, today, like,
00:52:37
Speaker
if they If we hadn't had the chance to connect, the likelihood of those guys being in an orphanage and having ah you know not no education, they'd probably be on the front of of the war in in Ukraine right now. you know That would be their their path. and so they're they're no smarter than any any other kid. They've just have been given some opportunities and they've they've grabbed it. and And I think that's what everybody wants, whether whether it's you know the kid in Kenya who who really loves computers and wants to be a so you know software engineer. of like
00:53:11
Speaker
Why shouldn't he have the same opportunities as you and I do? like Or the kid that grows up in Chicago really wants to go climb in the mountains. like you know it's It's like, how do we open the aperture of opportunities up? That's my long-term, like my goal that I think is the through line for my professional career. I would say that you know because of the ability to have these agentic tools, these LLMs, we're on the cusp of really changing our mindset. A lot of the frictions that we've had in organizations have been because it we had scarce resources and we had scarce
00:53:55
Speaker
you know, a scarcity mentality of, only a few people in the world can do this or only a few people, you know, there's, there's like scarce knowledge. And all of a sudden, if you have a world where anybody in the world can, you know, use an LLM and be 90% as good as anybody else in the world, how awesome is that?
00:54:14
Speaker
And I, and I think what, what happens in, in organizationally, what I'm seeing, what I'm really thinking about is that, you know, we need to think about tools like AI going from point solutions,
00:54:28
Speaker
to to more re-architecture of organizations. Like, yeah, you could look at AI as a tool and you could say, yeah, it can save me some time on some things. But what's really called into question of like, how do we what is an organization? How do we build organizations? What does that mean?
00:54:45
Speaker
And so the thing that I've really been focused on on a micro level is I think that the that the unit of work at an atomic level is changing. I think we've always thought about it as people.
00:54:57
Speaker
like what builds businesses people do and and and, you know, how do we get the right people? And and the as you've experienced, like getting the right partners, getting the right people, you know, all that kind of soft work is really, really hard, right? It's really hard to know and assess where people are and how they're doing. and And so in my latest work, I've been thinking a lot about this idea of assessment being the new atomic unit of work. And what I mean by that is if you think historically, you know, it's like the stuff we do in sports, right? He's like, you you have a training program, you, you know, you do the training program and and and then you assess where you are and, you know, a week and a month and a year, whatever that is.
00:55:42
Speaker
Um, what I think we're ha what's happening and what we have the ability to do is to change the, the atomic unit of these kind of new kind of loops between learning and assessment so that we can actually build real-time assessment into the learning itself.
00:56:01
Speaker
We can see how fast ah we can adapt and we can grow and we can solve problems, not next week or next month, but you know the the systems I'm most intrigued with in the work that I'm doing are companies that are building the ability for a freelancer, let's call it Lagos, Nigeria,
00:56:20
Speaker
to be able the best you know AI software engineer in the world because they have an AI agentic coach that... examines everything they do in their learning journey and in their work journey and continuously gives them constant feedback saying, you know, like, Hey, that, that was great. That, that code you just wrote, but here's, here's a way to do it 25% better.
00:56:43
Speaker
and and, and so we, we build these kinds of learning loops so that we're creating velocity for the people that we work with. And I think that applies to every organization, right? I mean,
00:56:55
Speaker
Imagine if you had the ability for your coaches to have agentic, you know, coaches coaches that allows them to kind of examine like all the data, all their athletes, all the things that are happening every day in the work going, Hey, that was great. Some of your athletes are succeeding and some didn't today. And here's some suggestions on how to change your coaching approach that might get more to be more successful or attain the goals that they're trying to achieve.
00:57:24
Speaker
I think that's amazing. Right. But I think it means that we have to restructure what we do. It's, we have to kind of say, instead of, you know, us trying to get tools, we we almost have to re-architect our system so that these agents become coordinating layers, right?
00:57:43
Speaker
Coordinating the data, giving us feedback, almost managing our activities so that we provide better outcomes for the for the people that we work with. um So that's the area I'm exploring. I think it's really interesting. I think it applies to every business, right? If you're hiring a, you know, my God, like in the you know, the thing that I've been into the last couple of years is is contingent work and freelance.
00:58:07
Speaker
But watching organizations take four to five months to hire software engineer when you know they can go to an open platform and hire somebody in two hours. And just imagine having the trust of knowing that their last keystroke, they're at the 95% level you know ah being able to accomplish what you need to accomplish. i mean, let's take all the friction out of matching great people with the tasks that need to be done to create create accelerated work. i I think that's what's fascinating to me.
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah. So i've i I'm going to talk about this on the podcast. I've never, I'm not really ready to talk about this officially, but, you know, I'm, I've been working on something along the lines of what you're talking about for the last year and a half.
00:58:56
Speaker
And so what I'm trying to operationalize, there's a couple layers to it. One is a dashboard for a coach. So one of my coaches will open up their dashboard in the morning and they will see a prioritized list of athlete needs.
00:59:09
Speaker
That is, you know, the, the ape were connected to the training peaks through the API. It's coming in We have an agent that I've spent a lot of money and time and, and,
00:59:19
Speaker
put a lot of IP into training and teaching and it's doing exactly what what you're saying. it's it's It's sort of the AI with a human in the loop.
00:59:30
Speaker
And it's really interesting. And then the the other layer of that is to build a dashboard on top of that. So I, as a manager can make sure, can see how all the coaches are doing and and creating KPIs like, you know, who has all their athletes programmed out for the next seven days with their workouts, who or or or doesn't. And I can, you know, and so it's, it's been very effective in our internal trials, even though it's not,
00:59:58
Speaker
the The tool isn't working as well as I want it to yet, ah but it is it is allowing us to see like, okay, because there's patterns. Like, you know, I didn't realize that one of our coaches was kind of consistently a little bit behind on his programming.
01:00:15
Speaker
Not a big deal. He always got it done, but it was like, it just needed that little nudge. Now he knows we're watching and guess what? Like those athletes are scheduled out all the time. Like there's no, they hasn't, you know, once and cause it actually is no more effort. And he realized that and he changed his, his habits and now he's doing an incredible job He was always doing an incredible job, but maybe he was only programming out three or four days at the time instead of seven days, which is what I'd like them to have out. and And I always tell people, like, tell your athletes it's like a weather forecast. Seven days out, you know, it's like 50-50 that that's going to happen. It could completely change. It could be blue skies or a thunderstorm, but you're predicting blue skies for that day. And that's the way coaching is, and that's the truth.
01:00:58
Speaker
So I think that this has been really good and probably what I'm really interested talk to you about and we can talk about later perhaps too, but is making people comfortable with this.
01:01:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's the thing. And we haven't adopted this, like, you know, like, let's say a full way, because as I said, the agent, agentic tools aren't working as well as I'd like.
01:01:23
Speaker
And i also am like, ooh, I need more time to bring people along to this new way of working because they're very, some ah some of them are like, you know, you have the, it's like anything. You have the early adopters, you have the people who are kind of in the middle. They have where people are like, no, I'm never going to do that.
01:01:41
Speaker
And, ah and it's been a lot of work on the human side. And I haven't been doing a very good job as ah as a leader in helping people come along to that.
01:01:52
Speaker
And it's, and it's scary, right? Like, it's scary for me. It's scary for them. i mean, my pitch is like, hey, you know, we're all going to be more efficient, you're going to be able to work with more clients do a better job.
01:02:03
Speaker
ah We're going to be able to prove to our our athletes that we have these quality control measures in place. So we know that this high standard that we that we offer is being met every time across every coach, across every athlete. And these are really powerful arguments. We can we can make these and we can deliver a better service. So it's it's a win-win. But there is this sense, this resistance to, i don't know,
01:02:31
Speaker
you know It doesn't matter what the details are in a way. I mean, it matters, but there's so it's like and whether it's an environmental issue or they're worried about like a big brother, like they don't yeah humans are humans. They're feeling their emotions. As you said, they're feeling their feelings.
01:02:48
Speaker
And it's been very interesting for me to like have to slow down and feel that with them and like sort of take the boogeyman out of that feeling.
01:03:01
Speaker
Like, yeah, there's a lot we don't know. And this might be terrible for the environment or we may solve that problem in a couple of years. I don't really know. You know, like i I don't have all the answers and have to be okay with that too. And when I've been talking to other people, I'm sure I'm not alone in this as ah as a small business owner that is is working through these things. You're smiling, so you must have seen this.
01:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think everybody has the same feelings,
AI as a Team Member and Leadership Dynamics
01:03:27
Speaker
right? It's terrifying. It's terrifying to think that, especially in, you know, in coaching and in things that are very heavy on kind of, you know, cognitive cognitive excellence, you know, figuring stuff out. And i mean, I think there's some, I think there's a couple of things. One is there's a there's some, at least some tricks that we're kind of, you know, observing in some of our research. We did some research with P&G and what we noticed is that when you,
01:03:54
Speaker
move AI from being a tool to a to actually a team member, naming it, being a part of it. you know It's like, hey, Joe's here today. He's going to help us out. you know like Just go to Joe, ask the questions.
01:04:07
Speaker
That kind of personification all of a sudden, like in the research that we've done, is like the more positive emotion for adoption is much, much higher. Instead of like, oh, I got to go learn the tools for myself because I'm competing against 10 other people on my team.
01:04:21
Speaker
It's more like, no, Joe's a part of it and it's going to be open. we're just going to you know query Joe to kind of ask questions and build models and help us all out. And all that data is going to be on the you know open and transparent.
01:04:35
Speaker
you know I think the the second point is that you know, you've got to do it in a way that is not about big brother and observing up people and, you know, even tying their compensation to it is kind of a ah terrifying thing. I think the better way to do it is to to make sure that it's an opt-in, that it's positive, that they feel like it's an enabler.
01:04:59
Speaker
So, um you know, what we're seeing a lot in situations is people not, I mean, I'm involved in one project at a, at a, um, you know and ah at a at a home for challenged young people. And one of the things that's really difficult is finding caretakers that can you know be yeah in the environment and be engaged as caretakers. And so i I think what's been really interesting is it starts with a core philosophy
01:05:30
Speaker
And, and this organization has decided instead of saying, well we're going to use it for punitive, you know, like you've got to do you know X amount of engagement or whatever. It's actually bonuses. And there's, you know, in and like really almost like 50% bonus at the highest level per hour.
01:05:46
Speaker
And, and the things are like, Hey, if you're not on your phone and you're engaged with a person, You know, we're going to observe the interactions, but but this is a way for you to to make 50% more.
01:05:58
Speaker
So not saying, hey, you know, stay off your phone or interact with people. We're going to judge you. Right. These are the rules. Yeah, exactly. It's more like, hey, this is a way for you to make 50% more money if you do this in a different way and encourage them to do that. And I think that's a much more positive thing, right? So if you have a bunch of coaches, you know giving them bonuses to say, hey, those folks that adopt this in a a new way and those athletes that that succeed, the alignment of of, you know, because at the end of the day, you guys are in the business of helping athletes succeed. And, you know, there should be kind of alignment in in philosophy and philosophy.
01:06:36
Speaker
organizational excellence and also compensation. And so by using these new tools to, you know, to to give better outcomes to the customer, everybody should share in that success, right? And so it should be a really positive thing. And so anyway, those are some of the examples that we're seeing at at Harvard. But I think it it starts with compassionate you know, compassionate leaders that are just really honest about their own struggles, right? That this is a whole new world of work and it's changing everything. And this is going to be really hard. There's a thing, you know, the the famous S curve, right? Of like how organizations grow.
01:07:09
Speaker
But there's also another kind of curve that a lot of folks in academia talk about is the J curve, that things have to go down before they go up. and And that's really happens a lot in really transformative thing. And I think we can see that now in, in the context of, we we would even call it the J curve, a grief curve.
01:07:29
Speaker
It's like going along and being pretty successful and like, holy shit, this could end my career. oh my God, I'm going to be super depressed. You know, the bots are going to take over. Like, and you know, and and the job of a leader is to be super transparent. Like not everybody's going to be able to be successful.
01:07:45
Speaker
These are tools that we are all going to have to learn. It's a fucking drag. You know, the beginning of a learning journey is always a drag because you got a lot more to learn than you have time. And, and, and going through that and enabling and and just acknowledging the fact that there's grief, right? It's, it doesn't matter to me to go back to some of the things we talked about, the avalanche and Bridget. It's like,
01:08:06
Speaker
what What really helped me out were friends that were trying to fix things or weren't trying to give me guidance or anything, but just would sit with me and go like, this sucks. you know like We'll get through this together, but it's like, mean you know let's just acknowledge that this new world of work is going to be really, really hard. but we've got to all figure it out because we have clients that are paying us to help them get what they want to go. And if this helps them, if this helps us do that, then that's what counts, right?
01:08:36
Speaker
That's what counts. Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the day, like, yeah, that's the, that's the North star, right? Like helping people. and And this is, this is so interesting. So, you know, this,
01:08:52
Speaker
I see this this arc in your career and and tell me if I'm oversimplifying or imposing something that's not there. But I see it a lot of people, including myself, where we we start off our careers and what whatever it is where we're we're we're sort of very self-focused.
01:09:12
Speaker
And then as we get older and progress and we end up in places where we're very outward focused, and I mean, you're very outward for all those research that you're doing, all this work you're doing, all these things you talk about every day, all these people you work with at Harvard, it's to help others, right? Like it's to help as software engineer at Lagos, right? Like it's it's it's you'll know that you'll never meet, right? That you'll never know that you touched.
01:09:39
Speaker
And where does that, like, is that, first of all, is that true for you? And second of all, why do we have to start at the beginning there and end there? Why can't we just skip to the end? Like, why, you know, what, is that necessary?
01:09:57
Speaker
I don't know if it's necessary. i think that's a really, really good question. um You know, I think that people, have much more empathy than i I do. I think, you know, when you're young, you're trying to prove yourself and you're, you know, you're trying to do things that, you know, make your mark and make your name. And, you know, it's almost like you want to be in the club, right? You want to have the plaque on the wall or the awards or, you know, and do accomplish something in a race so you can get to the next race and have the next experience and satisfy your sponsors. And, and I think that, you know,
01:10:39
Speaker
It is a maturation project process. I, you know, I think that, that I've just been really having some interesting conversations lately, a bit with Peter, you know, Metcalf and and some other folks, but you know, what does it mean to be an elder? There's a responsibility to being an elder. And I've really felt this lately, you know, like I felt this deep need to just, you know, to no longer kind of have the burden of having the imposter syndrome and and not feeling like I,
01:11:07
Speaker
i fit in or i've done stuff a lot of it comes from i think i think you know what i've noticed in myself is is is when i give myself some self-acceptance and some self-forgiveness damn that frees up a shit ton of time you know it's like all of a sudden i'm not worried about fitting in or did i do the right thing or you know like all that internal dialogue it's like wow i got some space i don't have to worry about all that crap anymore And I can actually take the time to really you know that's beautiful sit and listen in the moment. And I think that's a lot. I had this really fascinating conversation that you'll totally laugh at. you know
01:11:47
Speaker
All the stuff that I've had an opportunity to do and you know the years I spent with Peter and went to Peter's 70th birthday, Um, you know, and it a bit of a wild ride cause I, you know, probably too much information, but I had just gotten my catheter out from, you know, from the prostate cancer, but I hopped in the car that day and I drove out and I wasn't in a great shape and I showed up at Peter's birthday and it was just such a great celebration. Peter is such an amazing person.
01:12:12
Speaker
So I wasn't feeling super well. And the thing that struck me is that I think somewhere i I forgot that I was a climber. And then yet in this beautiful celebration, there were so many stories that people told that I was somehow involved in the expedition or the business transaction. And it was like, wow, it just like this great self-acceptance is like, I don't, I no longer have to worry about, am I, aren't I, am I in the cool kids group? What would that mean? You know, oh my God, somebody's cooler than me because they did something different.
01:12:46
Speaker
like that's all been kind of washed away. and And I think a lot of that is not just age. I think it's just the life experiences that we have other things that become more important but i I would hope for all of us that we you know that we are on a journey and that we get to the point where we have the opportunity to be an elder and and have had enough life experience to say, i don't you know i don't need to go climb any more big mountains. I'm really respectful you know and and really in awe of your ability to kind of decide that that's not what you're going to do anymore, you know your own very public
01:13:21
Speaker
awareness of, that hey, it's time. and And that's a huge thing. We've all seen you know friends that that can't give it up, that can't let go of that for whatever reason. And it never ends well, right? for a lot of In a lot of different ways. And so i think that that's that's what really gets me excited these days is to have these conversations, to share things, is to be insightful.
01:13:44
Speaker
I think what we need right now in culture is just a lot more people being really transparent and really vulnerable and You know, just the art of saying like, I don't know, i don't know, about all these experiences and I don't know where it's going to go, but let's have a conversation and a dialogue about it. And and I think that's, the world could be a better place if we just kind of put down all our armor and our our attitudes and our points of view, whatever it is, right?
01:14:10
Speaker
I mean, you remember back in the day, I just found it so fascinating that, you know, the trad versus the sport climber and all that, like all all for not, right? Look at all that energy that went into stuff that didn't really matter in the long run. Nah. yeah um and and ah And I just, I think part of the things that comes with age is this ability to kind of let it go and not care so much, right? Not care so much and and be able to say, you know, I'm just here and I'm available and You know, if if there are waves today, I'll go surf. But not solely age. Age isn't the determinant. I think it's experience. Yeah, i agree. i agree. I conflate the two, right? I conflate the two. The the the distance of enough experience is to do that.
Legacy and Achieving Equanimity
01:14:52
Speaker
i For our regular listeners, I'll drop a little um teaser that the last episode of this season and voice of Voice the Mountains, I'm going to be in person with Mark Twight. And we're ah the theme is being an elder. Great, man. That's awesome. You just mentioned that. And, you know, he's another individual who, you know, I just see him as such a in In a lot of ways, I see you this way, too, as like ah an artist, right? Like, it's just like such an artistic person. He just feels and sees the world in such interesting ways and has taught me so much, as as have you.
01:15:30
Speaker
This has been an amazing conversation, John. One of the highlights of Voice of the Mountains for me. Last question I want to ask you is how do you want to be, how would you like to be remembered?
01:15:42
Speaker
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. i don't know if it's been the cancer or my life's journey. But I have this deep desire and kind of a Hindu tradition is just to have a bowl and be able to disappear and not be known, you know, just become the unknown become, you know, i often think a lot I do i have the opportunity to be an advisor and I just really delight in the in in in.
01:16:09
Speaker
in a role of being just a ghost in the machine. you know Nobody needs to know you know. Nobody needs to know I was there. i just kind of like that. And it it creates such freedom, right? It kind of creates ability to kind of have these really curious connections with new people and new things that if you're not fighting hard to keep your identity and keep your legacy alive, that I just get giddy. And I look forward to continuing that. And it's not that I'm going to disappear um
01:16:42
Speaker
in ah In a physical way, I'll still be out there talking about stuff and you know engaging in conversations, but it just, I think for my own internal thing, I think it's just getting to a point where you just don't care anymore, like how you're known or how what your legacy is. And I'm not quite there yet, for sure. There's a lot of ego still involved in a lot of things that I i do, but but i I long for those days.
01:17:05
Speaker
And it's so interesting, right? Like you you have embodied and lived as, and you know I completely ah associate and and relate to this idea of like wanting to wanting to sort of bend the arc of the world, of the history of of mankind, of humankind in some way.
01:17:23
Speaker
and to have this sort of equanimity to be like, yeah I'm just going to disappear, as you put it, be a ghost in the machine. I think that's, both of those things can be true.
01:17:34
Speaker
I think we've culturally been taught that those are mutually exclusive viewpoints, but that is not the case. And you're not the first one to answer in a way in this in this way. And I find that pattern very interesting.
01:17:48
Speaker
Interesting. And I love the word equanimity, and I think that's a great way to capture it, right? Something that that I'm certainly... um I don't want to say I'm striving for it because that would be the antithesis of of the goal, but something that I that i that i that i am able to embody.
01:18:06
Speaker
Maybe that might be a better way to say it. Beautiful, John. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your gifts. I mean, you've given, whether people know it or not, you've you've touched, if they're listening to this, you've almost certainly touched their lives in some way. and ah Thanks, man. And you've certainly touched mine in a lot of positive ways. So thank you for that. And thank you for all you've done.
01:18:26
Speaker
Thank you for being here today. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you, John.
01:18:43
Speaker
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01:19:01
Speaker
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Speaker
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