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2025 Trail and Mountain Running Highlights with Gabe Joyes
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Steve House welcomes newly appointed Uphill Athlete Coach Gabe Joyes for a comprehensive look at the 2025 trail running season. Gabe brings deep expertise as both a competitive trail runner and race director, having organized Wyoming's Sinks Canyon Chill Races and Run the Red Desert for nearly a decade.
The conversation covers the year's marquee events: Western States 100, where Abby Hall and Caleb Olson claimed victories; Hard Rock 100, marked by Katie Scheid's stunning course record; and UTMB, where Ruth Croft became the first woman to win the UTMB/CCC/OCC triple crown and Tom Evans finally claimed victory after two previous DNFs. They also discuss the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships, the rise of 200-mile distances, and the inspiring presence of athletes in their seventies and eighties still finishing hundred-milers.
Special Offer to Listeners: Receive free four week samples of our most popular training plans, visit uphillathlete.com/letsgo
Write to us at coach@uphillathlete.com
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guests
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing how hard in the trail running world people will push each other like relentlessly to sort of ah absurd paces and in wild terrain. But the moment across the finish line, it hugs, it's handshakes, it's high fives, and that's that is the standard.
00:00:26
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan. Head on over to UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:00:43
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
00:00:59
Speaker
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. My name is Steve House and I'm here today with newly minted Uphill Athlete Coach, Gabe Joyce.
Trail Running Insights and 2025 Season Discussion
00:01:09
Speaker
Gabe, welcome.
00:01:10
Speaker
Hey, thanks for having me, Steve. I'm going to be part of the team. Yeah, it's great to have you here. Today we're gonna talk about a couple of things. First of all, I want to introduce you. i mean, some of the audience will know you for, you know, you've been associated with Uphill Aslee for a number of years now.
00:01:26
Speaker
And then wanna look back at the trail running season of 2025. And I'll admit like this is not my zone of specialty, but that's why we have you because it is yours and you know a lot about it. and kind of go through a lot of retrospective, look at the different events and races and then implications and and end with kind of looking forward a little bit to 2026 and what those of us who are sort of, you know, can think of myself as an armchair fan of of trail running.
00:01:56
Speaker
I've never run an ultra, but I certainly admire it. and I've certainly worked with a lot of athletes that interacted with a lot of the community and just a great community. So, let's Let's dig into it.
Gabe Joyce's Coaching and Race Directing Journey
00:02:07
Speaker
um You came to us, I would say, through our director of coaching, Chantelle Robitaille, and she's been coaching you for a number of years. How did you first um start working with Chantelle?
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think Chantal I have been working together for about two years now. And um my wife and I, we put on a couple of races here in in Lander, Wyoming. And Chantal had come at one on a rent one of our races, the 6K and show races.
00:02:36
Speaker
And um i remember chatting with her at the finish line for quite a while after she had a great race. And just those people that left an impression on me. and and you know i And I knew of her as a coach, of course, and kind of made a mental note to myself to like...
00:02:50
Speaker
keep Chantal in mind for the future if I ever needed some more coaching connections and sure enough I did so that was kind of the plan of the seed and you know it's amazing sometimes when people just leave like a really good impression with you it's like oh yeah don't want to don't want to forget about them so I'm glad I made that mental note yeah Yeah, you guys have had a ah fruitful relationship and you've certainly had some amazing results and and a lot of different projects, not just competitive, but, you know, doing some, I don't even know what you call that, like what your're your solitude study through the wind. I don't know exactly what you call that in terms of an event. It's like yeah almost like a stage running
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, I called that on the ah the Gravant Solitude Project. You look at the Gravant Mountains in Wyoming, which are like adjacent to the winds. um Yeah, all good. um And I don't know, I guess I just call like a multi-day adventure run.
00:03:47
Speaker
i mean It was like very much a ah project to so could could do some exploring and do some work for the Forest Service. And um I'm sure we'll get more into that one later another time too. But yeah, that was that was a big project for me for the fall that was... ah a great adventure and and a wonderful the way you way to use fitness besides just running races and pin it on a bib.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah. And what is your experience with race directing? You've been running races for a while now, and I think this is one of the really interesting things. We're going to talk about a bunch of different races, but I think it's really interesting how this whole culture of race directors RDs has evolved evolved with the sport and almost in lockstep.
00:04:30
Speaker
And, you know, I remember the first time I heard about somebody doing an ultra, it was probably in the mid nineties. It was like somebody doing the Wasatch 100, which I think was one of the originals.
00:04:41
Speaker
And, and it was just such a fringe thing that, you know, would, like most of us who were hearing about it, we're hearing about it for the very first time.
00:04:52
Speaker
And people like you have really stepped in and how does that work? Are you organizing? Like, yeah. Tell me a bit about your race series. Yeah. um So the Sinks Canyon Trail races, my wife and I and a good friend of ours, we've been race-durking at for, I think it's almost like 10 years.
00:05:11
Speaker
And a couple other friends of ours started the race. And I think they had it for maybe a year or two. And it was the sort of thing where like 15 people showed up and they were marking the course in the night like the the night before the race. I mean, it was as grassroots it as it gets. Yeah.
00:05:27
Speaker
um And so when we took it over about 10 years ago, we tried to ramp it up a little bit, but it was still pretty low key, you know, 30 some people showing up and, you know, a keg at the finish line that that the Forest Service didn't approve kind of thing.
00:05:42
Speaker
And since then, and but it's it's developed and professionalized a lot. And it's just slowly evolving, you know, what like anything we do, we just kind of look for ways to to make it a better experience for people. um And It was, if I've been totally honest, it was really hard for a few years. It was sort of an insane amount of work for us. And there was a number times where we almost walked away from it and we're like, that's cool. But like, you know, we all have other jobs and kids and our other obligations. And it was it was all the finish line feels. It was like the good vibes. It was the cross the finish line. I were like, I never thought I could use it like that. Or that was most beautiful run of my life. Like, this is one of the best days ever.
00:06:20
Speaker
get that kind of feedback. was like, well, I guess we can keep putting in the work, you know, it's like, it's pretty hard to like to turn that down, even if it's like months of kind of like jamming it all in the planning in, you know, on Saturday mornings and way too late at nights and stuff like that. And, um and so we got efficient, we got more people on the team. We got more like like long-term volunteers to help with things, help take the mode off of us a
Community and Environmental Impact of Trail Running
00:06:46
Speaker
little bit. And,
00:06:47
Speaker
uh now it feels much more sustainable and our races have we we have multiple distances and we've sold out with 300 some runners the past several years and so it's a completely different experience than it was but like the roots and the fun and the feel and the good vibes are all still there um and then the other race my wife and i put on it's called run the red desert uh trail races and that's cool that one's kind of a different animal, um, which that race was started several different environmental nonprofit organizations in Wyoming more than 10 years ago an effort to protect, um, and, uh, some, some public lands in the red desert and why in kind West central Wyoming, um, from further oil and gas development. So the, the challenge was, um,
00:07:36
Speaker
ah the The BLM was was open to to developing in this area for sort for more oil and gas leases. sam that weder No one does any non-motorized recreation out there.
00:07:48
Speaker
and These non-profit organizations were like, oh yeah, we're going to put on trail race and prove you wrong. And so they did. um and that has evolved a ton over the years i've been involved in different capacities but um that race was in a position that was maybe going to fade away a couple years ago unless someone took it over and ah that's a really special landscape and an event that just couldn't go away so once again my wife and i were kind like don't i guess well i guess we'll do it and make it happen and um so that's
00:08:19
Speaker
developing again now and yeah we're happy to have a couple hundred people out in the red desert this fall and again keeping keeping the good vibes going and and getting as many trail runners as we can to come and experience big beautiful wild spaces um that they probably otherwise wouldn't do Yeah, and we're going to talk about a bunch of races, as I said, but one of the things that I think is so impressive about the trail running community is that it literally runs on good vibes, as you said a couple of times. yeah And that's the glue. And it's incredible. I've never been around such a...
00:08:54
Speaker
dynamic, energetic, and most of all, mutually supportive. Like everybody's rooting for everyone. i mean, we're going to, and I just want to state that because we're going to talk about people who won and lost races here, or in some cases, lost at least one case lost their life racing and then so on.
00:09:12
Speaker
And, you know, that makes it sound like it's it's this i don't know like ah ah another indycar series or another now you know yeah and it and it's and it's so not that it's so not this cutthroat who's gonna win like there's of course a little competition among you know people but it's mostly among competition among themselves and i just really it just so much aligns with the values that we bring uphill athlete and how we want people to engage in ah lifelong process of of becoming and and iterating on themselves and and trying and challenging themselves in different ways.
Coaching Philosophy and Athlete Development
00:09:51
Speaker
So just a quick pivot, you know, I'm really excited to have you on the coaching team. You bring some really deep experience with trail racing, also with race directing. There's a lot of, you know, a lot of what we end up doing is helping guide, you know, early stage trail racers or first time trail runners, racers to the right events. And, you know, you knowing all, knowing the community, knowing all these events, obviously knowing the geography of them and, you know, you bring a lot of depth there and that really ah has helped us, know,
00:10:28
Speaker
sort of broaden our ability to get people to the right events for their place where they are in their journey of trail running. And, you know, you've just been, you've, I think, checked all the boxes. It's important for me that our coaches are athletes on some level. I found that in trying to, you know, one time we had a guy who was exercise physiologist, had PhD in And I thought, okay, this can be really easy to teach this guy how to coach.
00:10:58
Speaker
Wasn't the case at all because he didn't know what it meant when he wrote down a two-hour run or a three-hour run or at such and such a pace or whatever. He understood the science and he understood he was really good at numbers, but he didn't understand the feeling of training. And i think that that is something that you have to earn. The other piece of that is having been coached. I think that that's really important. It's...
00:11:22
Speaker
it's ah it's sometimes a challenge working with people who haven't been coached before to sort of teach them how to take the feedback and the guidance that a coach provides. And it's it's not always supernatural for people to to receive that and to know how to make the best of it. Some people are are easy to coach and some people are are frankly really, really hard and need a partner that can work with them that's like, hey, you know,
00:11:52
Speaker
i I know that this may be landing in a certain way. However, I want you to understand I'm coming from this angle and I'm trying to get you to where your goal and not trying to stand in the way, know, like there's a lot of ah potential things, especially when people are...
00:12:07
Speaker
balancing a lot of different ah goals, whether it's professional, family, sport, you know, and people can easily get their their plates over full overfilled. So that's, I think, having been coached, I think is super useful. And the the other one is just like having a and a deep experience with coaching yourself. I mean, you didn't come to a athlete as ah as a new coach. You've already been coaching for some time. So what is it that, you know, I've heard a lot about how into these few short minutes as to how you, you sound like really a person that really cares about giving back to people and creating experiences to people and that feeds you. And that's actually something that is also when, when we talked, it's like, okay, yeah, this, this is kind of energy we want in our, in our team.
00:13:04
Speaker
How does that connect for you with coaching, that that spirit? Yeah, um I always have been drawn to giving back. um I don't know, my brain's just wired that way where I get just excited, sometimes more excited about other people's goals as I do my own. um im I think I've always said, I think about the happiest place in the world is hanging out on a Finnish life and also Marathon and just seeing the joy from, and I shouldn't just say the joy, the mix of emotions.
00:13:35
Speaker
and but from the first run to the last. And there's, you know, every sort of people have had every experience imaginable out there. And um I love being a part of that. And love being part of people's journey to get to that moment or whatever their goal is, not just the finish line, of course, right. But um whatever, whatever experience they're looking for and they're chasing, I always like to hear about people's big, exciting, scary goals. And um the more we're audacious, the more ridiculous, and the more they excited they are about it.
00:14:04
Speaker
I'm right there with someone like, okay, let's do it. This will be fun. um Yeah, and that kind of that feels my fire for sure as a coach. And that's what people need. They need a partner. They don't need a dictator, right? like and And I think that that's that's our our approach to to coaching, absolutely.
Notable Races and Athlete Achievements
00:14:21
Speaker
Let's pivot towards the 2025 season and you know also looking forward to the 2026, where you're going to help us coach a bunch of great trail runners to some amazing events and some of these. It's been quite a year, are just incredible performances. There's been new records, there's been reminders of both the beauty and the inherent risks with trail running. And the depth of the competition, i would say, seems to continue to grow. And there's been some breakthrough performances from several athletes across you know a lot of different, on to just to say, continents, because these races are we're talking about are worldwide. Yeah.
00:15:03
Speaker
Let's just start with with the top of the season, which to me, maybe not not to everyone, but it's always at Western States, which is typically in late June of of the year. and it's It's a fast course.
00:15:19
Speaker
It's very runnable. It's often hot, um which is often one of the one of the factors. and This year, we had a woman named Abby Hall, who I didn't really know about. I don't know if you know Abby. She had probably one of the biggest wins of her career and Caleb Olson won for the men.
00:15:40
Speaker
And i think one of the highlights for a lot of us as spectators was, you know, my friend, Killian Yornay came back and participated. i think it was 15 years since he first entered that race and won back in 2011. Is this a race that you follow?
00:15:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it was a really... I thought it especially exciting Western States. I do know Abby Hall, and I think... I was so happy with her. I think really highly of her. I shared a bunch of miles with her at Transgarian Canaria several years ago. I forget what year it was.
00:16:15
Speaker
um But she's just... um She is a relentlessly driven runner who has, had like wis so many people, has had her ups and downs in her career. She's had some injury troubles, but like her her focus and dedication is is pretty unreal at next level. i i was I saw her actually a bunch this spring, too. she was racing the Canyons 100, and she was pacing her partner, Kortis, and I kept on doing some leapfrogging with him. So i I saw them out there over and over. and um Yeah, if there's anyone who, like...
00:16:47
Speaker
I mean, people always like deserve their success, but like if there's anyone who really deserved that win and deserved that success, it was Abby Hall. I was thrilled for her. Um, some mega kudos to her and Caleb Olson. I, I don't know him personally. He's, he's like, ah oh I have a lot of friends are his friends, but he caught my eye.
00:17:04
Speaker
Um, this last spring, he went and had a seriously impressive win at Trans Grand Canaria and, uh, if folks aren't familiar with that race um it's running from from one side of grand canaria island in one of the canary islands to the other side and it's it's amazing the diversity of the terrain and the heat and the challenge of it it's just a hard race to do it's early season as well in iberia or march or whenever it is now um and for from an american for from salt lake city to go there and win that i was like whoa
00:17:36
Speaker
Kayla Bolson is for real. um And so I had my eyes on him for sure at Western States. And um by all accounts, he's he's a great person and had a seriouslyprint seriously impressive race. And ah what ah what a 2025, which means those two races. so And of course, seeing the the GOAT Killian ah do so well again, I mean, I was thrilled for that.
00:18:01
Speaker
So, yeah. And one thing I want to ask you, you know, The Grand Canary is a very different race than Western Sage, right? Like it's very steep.
00:18:12
Speaker
Talk to me as if I'm a beginner because they basically am. What is the... How do you classify these things? Like, i mean, I know you've placed... ah really well a few years ago at Dragon's Back in Wales. And I think of that as more like, um what what would I call it? That's more of a sky running type event, isn't it? And talk to us about the different sort of ways you categorize these races for those of us who aren't 100% dialed on the lingo.
00:18:44
Speaker
Sure. Well, like Western States, you know, as 100 miles, you know, is really ah ah quite a runnable one. You know, it that's not to mean it's all flat, but it does have net downhill.
00:18:54
Speaker
i I think Trans-Gran Canaria is actually like a fairly good maybe indicator race for Western States in that there are... pretty long and significant chunks of it that are runnable, particularly this massive descent at the end that is hot and exposed.
00:19:13
Speaker
um But it definitely has some proper climbing throughout the middle of it. um it's It's a really diverse course. And I'd probably say the same thing about the Dragon's Back as well. There are parts of that course like you said, are very like sky rain oriented where you like you are scrambling on all fours. There's there is exposure. There's like not really a trail. It's just rocks in front of you and you're picking your line.
00:19:33
Speaker
That is Carter Dragon's back. Um, but also Dragon's back has really long sections of paths where, um you know, lots of people are going run every single step of it. So, um, the type of races where and I'm drawn to those two races, um, Because I feel like you need to be a really complete runner and a complete complete athlete to compete at them. You can't just be someone who can go up and down. You can't be someone who can just run fast. you have can be able do a little bit of everything.
00:20:01
Speaker
And ah I like variety in my running. So that's maybe how I'd categorize those as diverse events. and And Westville State has a bit of that as well. Um, I haven't ran the whole course, but I've ran big chunks of it you know, it's, it, it's fast, it's runnable, but it's not a smooth bike path either. you know, there's challenges. and it it takes complete runners like Abby Hall and Kayla Bolson and Killian Jarnett to really throw down impressive times there.
00:20:32
Speaker
So let's skip forward about a few weeks to 100.
00:20:37
Speaker
You were there. Tell us so little bit about, I mean, there were some highs and some lows. I mean, they're particularly impressive to me was Katie Scheid. She's just been on a tear lately and it's been super impressive. She shot the women's course record, breaking Courtney DeWalter's record, which was already an impressive record by over something like 21 minutes.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah. What was your experience there? was i Had its highs and lows this year? Yeah, yeah, it sure did. um it was ah It was a challenging day for a lot of people. The morning started with some pretty sick wildfire smoke that I was completely oblivious to this. But it it sounds like the there was talk of the race even getting canceled.
00:21:20
Speaker
um the The smoke was so sick at times. um And it ended up heating up to be a very... hot and relatively humid day for for you know western colorado it was a challenging day for a lot of people but mean my goodness katie scheid's performance was quite sensational to be beat to beat corny dowelter's time and in the way she did was great and i again i shared a bunch of early miles with the race with katie scheid and um she just ran so so relaxed so smooth uh you can see she set herself up really well for for a great day so i was fantastic um i was ah i was thrilled to see ludo pomare defend his title i'm a big ludo fan at 49 years old and he's still just dominating hard rock in a way that um
00:22:14
Speaker
Lots of maybe outsiders might find ah surprising. But if you watch the guy run, it's like, oh, yeah, they're just got it. um So that was that was really impressive to see. And there are some other really great performances as well.
00:22:28
Speaker
um you know And the event was a bit overshadowed by passing Elaine Stipula. I have to say, as a runner, as a racer, I was oblivious to that. I didn't know anything about it. It's not like something someone shared with me at like an aid station or something like that. But it sounds like it certainly affected everyone who was there on the race. And that's those things that I learned shortly after finishing. It was just like...
00:22:56
Speaker
well how can that be and and you know and the race still just get went on so it kind of gave a surreal feel and you know it already feels like a massive privilege to just start that race and much less finish it and then ah yeah to to hear about elaine at the finish line um out that that gave a different feel to the whole event for sure Yeah, and I think, you know, i've I've been to hard rock. I lived in southwest Colorado for a bunch of years, and I used to go and watch, you know, stages of hard rock.
00:23:31
Speaker
and go go post run in somewhere and post up and cheer a few people on and stuff. That was always always pretty motivating. But one of the things with Hard Rock, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's it's a lottery. And once you are in, you're in for life.
00:23:48
Speaker
And you can run it as many times as you want. Is that how that works? No, definitely not. Oh, okay. So how do yeah are these guys getting in there like 20 times, 30 times?
00:23:59
Speaker
um So the lottery, oh gosh, we could do a whole podcast on the lottery. We can do a whole podcast on this. Okay, so yeah sorry if I opened a can of worms. But it seems like there are a lot of people who show up again and again and again once they get in. But I know like, you know, our mutual friend, Luke Nelson, I mean, he's been trying to get a ticket forever. Our fellow coach, willly Will Leidman, has been trying to get a ticket forever. And they just, you know, it's it's really hard to to pull a ticket.
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah, and so the more times you finish the race, the better your odds are of getting in. So that is one of the reasons that like some of the veterans keep coming back, um particularly people who like in the earlier days when the lottery wasn't so challenging when they racked up a bunch of finishes.
00:24:45
Speaker
That's really helped them out. um but Otherwise, yeah, there's several different lottery pools and and your odds kind of change from year to year and um Your odds are supposed to increase as time goes a along. and It hasn't always worked that way for people with the increased demand. But and it it's, yeah, it's so so challenging to get in. But for sure, the more you finish, ah that helps you out. So um I finished it twice now and still my odds for this next year's lottery.
00:25:14
Speaker
I just pulled them up. ah Dale, the run coordinator, just emailed out to get counts and stuff. And I was like, that feels bleak. So it's a lifelong goal for a lot of people. And it's a bucket list event and it takes a lot of patience and it's worth the wait. I can definitely say that. It's 100% worth the wait.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's talk about UTMB. You know, I think that this is, you know, build as the... kind of world championship of of the UTMB series, which I guess it is. And they've done an amazing job building up that series. I mean, somewhat controversial at times, but sure we'll skip over over that for a different conversation. it is what it is. they've They've done what they've done. And the UTMB has certainly positioned itself as the marquee
00:26:08
Speaker
trail race that that everybody knows, you know, it's and it's and it's well covered in the media and and so on. And it it's happens right at the end of August.
00:26:18
Speaker
And it was quite stormy this year. We had Coach Alyssa Recently departing and and evolving coach Alyssa Clark there, she she ran and she ran into some trouble with the bad weather and so on.
00:26:33
Speaker
Real stormy. There were some, as a result, there were some route changes and it was a pretty exciting race for the for the podium as well on both sides of men and women. Yeah, it was. It was an interesting race. And, you know, yeah, people have their opinions about UTMB, but I try to break it down that it's still like an absolutely amazing loop around um the Mont Blanc Massif with a whole bunch of really competitive runners and a ton of stoked people.
00:27:00
Speaker
I mean, yeah that's great. um yeah ah I wasn't able to go ahead. Yeah, and I just say like starting and ending in Chamonix, which is sort of the the the the the crucible, the the birthplace for, ah the you know, the touch you know the the cathedral for so many of us of mountain sports, just generally not just not just trail running, but alpinism, backcountry skiing, you know, all all the sports. So, um yeah, really an amazing, amazing atmosphere.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yep, what a route. um Yeah, and I wasn't able to follow UTMB as close to this year because that's actually when I was out doing it.
00:27:37
Speaker
i think that's when I was doing the Gravante round. I was doing something. I remember I was in the mountains and loosely trying to get updates on my phone when I was on Summit of the Peaks and stuff like that. so um But I've been a big Ruth Croft fan for a long time. And for her to be the first woman to win all three of like the major UTMB World Series championships, UTMB, CCC, and LCCC, like I said, I appreciate diversity in running.
00:28:00
Speaker
And like for her to do that, like... I mean, what a legend. That's incredible. um yeah So credit to her because she's always been like thereabouts in the conversation for youtube team for a long time and um a little bit like Abby Hall Western States, like to see her like put the pieces of the puzzle together and get it done.
00:28:19
Speaker
I love it. I'm here for that. ah Maybe Tom Evans, maybe similarly, he's a guy who's been around for a long time as well and has been doing impressive things, you know, and in the UK and beyond for for years.
00:28:32
Speaker
And, you know, with some of the, maybe some people's other favorites to win the race not being there. Yeah. Tom Evans stepped up like and delivered and and had ah an amazing performance. um And i think it's I think it's great for the sport. and I think it's refreshing to see not necessarily new names and faces, but maybe maybe the ones that people didn't predict were going to be the the winners. And I like seeing that happen to show that.
00:28:58
Speaker
you know, it's, the sport's not easy. The process is ongoing and, and nothing to give him. So, yeah, that, that was a, that was exciting to, to see um both Tom Evans and Ruth Croft taking one city team.
00:29:11
Speaker
Yeah, it was great. And, you know, as a not so well informed observer, you know, especially was watching the women's race because i know knew Alyssa was going to be in the mix for, you know, aiming for top 10 or better. And she was, ah it was really the race was led for a long time by Courtney.
00:29:33
Speaker
no big surprise. She's, I think, won, what, three or four times at UTMB. ah And she sort of, i don't want to say blew up because she didn't blow up, but she slowed down ah towards the end there and got overtaken by by Ruth. And it was really unclear for a long time like what was going she She was still running, Courtney was. And and and then all of a sudden, Ruth was there and there was I was there watching online right when court Ruth overtook Courtney and, you know, just the video again, like there was no, i don't know, elbows, or you know, or it was just like smiles and encouragement and...
00:30:19
Speaker
everybody was happy. was like, this is so cool. Like, what an amazing example that these athletes are setting right now that, you know, and you know, they're both running their hearts out. They're both going as fast as they can. That's not the question. It's just that like one's faster on it one day than the other. And here it is. So that's been, that's been really, was really good to see. Yeah. It's amazing how hard,
00:30:45
Speaker
In the trail running world, people will push each other like relentlessly to sort of ah absurd paces and and wild terrain. But the moment across the finish line, it it's hugs, it's handshakes, it's high fives. And that's that is the the standard.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it was interesting for me to to observe that too, knowing that my former a co-founder and former colleague, Scott Johnson, was coaching both Ruth and ah and Tom. And Tom started with Scott a few years ago when when we were still working together.
00:31:21
Speaker
and so I saw some of the initial parts of that. And it was really interesting to see how Tom's results evolved with some of this information and and and better guidance that we've kind of come to as a coaching community around nutrition and fueling for not just racing but also training. Because I know he was going pretty hard on the fasted training and stuff, but then he had a couple of DNFs because yeah you can't train you know without eating all the time and then go to a race and try to throw a bunch of stuff in your stomach and expect it to go well. And it sounds like, I mean, I don't have personal experience with it and I didn't talk to Tom. I just, from the hearsay that, you know, the people that I talked to said that, that, you know, that it was gut issues that kind of stopped him both times. And then that's a real thing, you know, when you're running that fast.
00:32:16
Speaker
that far, yeah the fueling is ah is a major, major thing. And Ruth came on later and I don't think has been working with with Scott very long, um but it's nevertheless, good to see they're ah their are successes. And I'm super happy for all of them. i mean, both Ruth and...
00:32:34
Speaker
Tom just ran super well, ran super smart races. And, you know, both obviously the the guidance from from Scott tactically was was spot on and they just did a really good job running running their own races and obviously ah reap the rewards and the benefits of of running smart races and being showing up, you know, ready. And maybe the tough conditions actually kind of helped them each end.
00:33:01
Speaker
each out since i think of both of them as really gritty athletes you know those guys are both tom and ruth are just tough as nails right like they're just yeah that's tough they're no strangers to adversity that that wasn't their first stormy run right no yeah i i would agree with you on that it it may have helped them yeah hard to know but uh uh i'm i'm sure they weren't too bothered by it in all honesty so yeah yeah good for them So one of the people that wasn't at UTMB who had had an outsized presence in the previous few runnings was Jim Walmsley.
00:33:39
Speaker
And ah another one was Katie Scheid. Those two weren't there and they opted instead for what's called the the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships.
00:33:50
Speaker
what What is the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships and how is it different to the UTMB World Series? Yeah, that's great. So the World Mountain and Trail Rating Championships, that is instead of athletes competing as as individuals are are representing um like a brand or team or sponsor in that way, people are represented in country.
00:34:13
Speaker
So you have to either qualify or be selected show up wearing your nation's kit, which it's it's tough to do. Those spots are limited. There's only so many athletes that can come.
00:34:24
Speaker
um It's one of those things that like there's some qualifying races where, you know, if you win, you get a spot on Team USA or whatever it is. um And some people are just picked um based on like merit and previous race results. And so, know, there's always a little bit of controversy with that, but I mean, it's, yeah, everybody was there who ran the World Mount Shorter and Champions is a very good runner.
00:34:49
Speaker
I think there's, there's no debate in that. So I, I thought it was really cool to see Jim Walmsley prioritize that rather than UTMB or Western States. And um i i recognize the they need to have a fresh and interesting and different goal.
00:35:09
Speaker
Now, he's done some of those races over and over. I think one of the most difficult things is to repeat a race that you've already won because anything less than winning again sort regardless of how the race goes, it just doesn't feel like a success. Even if you beat your previous time, even if you feel amazing, it's like if you end up in even second or third, it doesn't have quite the same feel. So, um, yeah, I totally get him being like, I need a new and different challenge.
00:35:34
Speaker
i I'm assuming that's what he was looking for. I i don't know how many firsthand knowledge during like that, but, That's what it looked like from the outside looking in. um So good for him on that. um And then I was so curious to see Katie Schein running for the the long trail after a Hard Rock. And um no i can I can tell you, as somebody who's finished Hard Rock twice, it's no Washington.
00:35:57
Speaker
few races have taken the energy and mojo out of me like Hard Rock because it's such a physical and emotional and mental investment for it. So I was like, I a little bit felt like that was um yeah that was a a bold move for Katie.
00:36:12
Speaker
um And just again, shows what class she has and ability and skill and fitness that after a race like Hard Rock, she can show up against the fastest people in the world and and and win the the long trail, which is about a 50-mile race, 82K, and do it
Performance Highlights and Course Preferences
00:36:32
Speaker
in style again. So, again, Katie deserves all but all the bloodets this year for that performance and for Hard Rock.
00:36:39
Speaker
Agreed. Yeah, or agreed. And just doing a little math, Hard Rock was on July 11th and World Mountain Trail was September 25th. So it's like, you know, it's two and a half months. It might have been, I don't don't know the weeks, but 10, 12 weeks, 10 and 11 weeks. And, ah you know, it's hard.
00:37:02
Speaker
I think that one of the reasons Hard Rock takes a lot of people juice out is because it is so high right like you're just you're really high the start and finish is at 10 000 feet you're going over multiple you know i believe there's some 13 000 foot touch 13 a couple times and it's 14 000 feet once too you touch 14 okay yeah so i mean just trying to push hard at that altitude you know it it takes takes an extra toll to a good And so to to recover from that and then maintain, get her form back and run fast on a short course is really impressive. And, you know, with Jim, I was like, okay, you know, I've always thought of Jim as, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always seen him as a
00:37:49
Speaker
as a as a fast, like, you know, he comes a little bit more from that road running background. He's he's always been really fast on the flats and he's maybe, well you know, just his strong suit is probably less the really steep, really tactical,
00:38:07
Speaker
things that we think of like Killian, you know, goading himself up and his, I always felt like his strength was more like the super runnable stuff.
00:38:17
Speaker
um And that's the way this course looked to me. And like so it made sense to me. Yeah, and well and and I think you're right. I think that is Jim's heritage, but i think without a doubt, he's really ah applied himself to to training in the mountains and and to work on that craft. He's done ah a bunch of training in the San Juans and Southwest Colorado and works on tons of training in Chamonix. So even though maybe maybe faster things might be more his bread and butter, he's no slouch at all on Steve Mountain's training that the World Mountain Show and the Championships had.
00:38:53
Speaker
And I mean, um I called him and talked to him once when I was working on um some some programming and I wanted his opinion on so on something and he was living in France at the time. So to your point, like he's really dedicated himself. Like he was living in France, training to win UGM, like he wanted to win the UGMB and that was, he put his whole, moved his wife over there. Like they, they you know, they reorganized their lives around that goal. And And you know and there's ah that old saying, you know train your weaknesses, raise your strengths. So you know it was ah it was when I saw a result, I was like, okay, yeah that that's good.
00:39:33
Speaker
There is a World Trail and World Mountain and Trail Running has a couple of other events too. What are what are these other ones? there's a There's a short trail and there's a mountain running event. How are those different? do you know much about those? Yeah.
00:39:47
Speaker
um You know, I have admit I don't follow those as closely, but there's yeah several shorter distances um that attract a little bit of a different field. Those sub-ultra distances tend to get less traction in the United States and less attention. if you And if you look at even...
00:40:08
Speaker
the results list, the top 10 of those. um I think I saw that. I forget who it was. There was one American there, but it's kind dominated by Europeans for sure. But um ah some of my, my friends and and teammates I have ran with and in Europe were from like Italy and Spain, like their ability to move mega fast on ridiculously steep, rugged terrain for, you know, whether it's like 20 K or 40 or whatever is, it's pretty impressive and incredible.
00:40:36
Speaker
And so, yeah, lots lots of really impressive performances there as well. um And I think it's great that those do exist you know and the and the World 12 Mountain Range Championships.
00:40:48
Speaker
um Maybe a little bit more well-known is like Switzerland's Remy Bonet and Germany's Nina Engelhard had some pretty impressive uphill races. I remember if that's like a VK or or what they do, but Remy Bonet has been around for a long time, absolutely thrashing every uphill course record there is and um yeah so it's a different end of the sport that i tend to more gravitate towards to but then they'll us uh no less impressive i had the pleasure to meet remy through some work i was doing a few years ago with atomic on their ski touring line on their hard goods and he's one of their schemo athletes and uh wow like
00:41:30
Speaker
First of all, what a nice guy. But then I like saw him training after that after the we were at like a ski resort and he was he was doing some training the ski area. And after closing, and yeah was i had to recalibrate what I thought of as fast on an uphill.
00:41:50
Speaker
It's like literally just... He's running, he's running, he's running uphill with the skis on. It looks like, you know, somebody's on a, he looks like at first glance, he looks like he's doing a diagonal stride on a flat Nordic horse.
00:42:03
Speaker
yeah And then you realize he's going up a, up a ski run with schema gear on. It's crazy. His cadence is incredible. His cadence. Yeah. It's, ah it's, it's exciting to see. mean, there's lots of videos out there. if anyone hasn't seen Remy running or skiing uphill, it it's worth your time to check out. It does, it does raise the bar for sure.
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah. Some other sort of notable things that were interesting. I mean, again, we're, we're focusing a lot on the, on the winners and the top end, but you know, I still think that all of this is supported by that, you know,
00:42:38
Speaker
that ability for people to both support and push each other. And there was a a new women's 100 mile world record where Catronia Jennings ire from Ireland ran 100 miles in 12 hours and 37 minutes, which is just mind boggling to me. And there was a 50 mile record set by Anne Flower.
00:43:02
Speaker
who also set a lead to 100 course record for women this year. So again, like you're seeing these, these names pop up. People are obviously, people like Ann are obviously just having, you know, peak years are doing really well. They're staying in good condition in between races. And they're able to translate from one event to another. i think this is really interesting because, you know, we've we've been conditioned, and I probably have been part of this, to make people think that, you know, you kind of have one shot every year. But...
00:43:34
Speaker
We got to remember that you know when we build good fitness and we take a long-term approach to building that fitness, we can reach a peak fitness and we can maintain it for two, three months. ah We might not be able to, you know it's hard to get past that peak, but this is exactly what you're seeing with you know the examples that we've talked about, whether it's Katie Scheid or Anne Flowers, these women are just are are maintaining a really high level of fitness,
00:44:01
Speaker
Over a pretty long period of time, these are not these are not back-to-back events. so Yeah, and and I believe Anne Flowers is an ER doctor as well. So, you know, she's setting records and with a busy work schedule. And, you know, i don't know what else she's got in her life, but, like, just incredible.
00:44:19
Speaker
Kachiona, I catch you on eye believe she's an Olympian for Ireland, or a former Olympian for Ireland as well. So, I mean, we're talking some pretty, like, uh cream of the crop people here um who are just high performers in life so yeah super inspiring to to see that and um yeah you know setting like a on 100 mile or 50 mile world record know it's the the flattest and fastest running you can imagine but it just keeps on going um so different than like what we're just like talking about like what remy's doing right um they're they're almost different sports in a way but uh no less impressive
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah.
Inspiration and Emerging Talents in Trail Running
00:45:00
Speaker
On the more kind of citizens racing side, I think that one notable thing that happened this year was that in Western states, there was five runners who were over 70 and one yeah who was over 80 or two that were over 80, one of whom was a original co-founder of UTMB, Miguel Poletti.
00:45:24
Speaker
And you know for for people to be running 100 miles when they're 70 and 80, is nothing short of inspirational, right? Like we all want to continue to have these experiences. And, you know, when I i talk to people on the phone about, you know, oh, i'm I'm starting really late in life and I'm 50. I'm like, yeah, I hear that. Like I'm i'm in my 50s as well. And Two guys just ran, you know, Western States their 80s. Like, you know, we yeah we need to rethink this, what, you know, middle age is these days. And, you know, again, if you take a careful long term view of your fitness development and stay healthy, you know, there's a lot that is possible.
00:46:10
Speaker
Yeah, especially when you have like a sustainable approach to training and nutrition and rest and recovery. it's It's amazing. there's There's lots of people out there that just kind of keep going. And those are some of the folks that I find the most inspiring for sure.
00:46:26
Speaker
And, you know, going going off script a little bit, one thing I wanted to kind of pick your brain about is the rise of the 200 mile distance. This is a trend we've really seen gaining steam.
00:46:39
Speaker
Our own coach, Alexa Hassman, has done a couple of 200 milers. She did Coca-Dona and she did, I think, what's the other one? Big Bear or something like that two years ago. you know,
00:46:50
Speaker
You know, someone emailed me today asking for a training plan for a 200-mile run. And, of course, my answer is like, hey, there there is no training plan for running 200 miles because that's way too individualized and you actually do need a coach. I'm not just trying to sell you that's That's just the right answer.
00:47:09
Speaker
But it's interesting, you know, wasn't that long ago, 100 miles was just mind blowing. You know, in in my lifetime, I sort of feel like we've gone from 26.2 miles being the ultimate test of endurance to 100 miles. And now it's 200. Like what's going on?
00:47:27
Speaker
Yeah, it is wild. um yeah i have... I've never done 200-mile race. It's on the to-do list. You can call me 200-mile curious. um But i I've done some really long stuff, and I've done runs. I've taken, like, 47 hours of nonstop movement, so it's not quite the same thing. But um it's...
00:47:47
Speaker
It is just a different experience and you're just living ah in a different way. Maybe almost in a way like a through hike where people sort of like begin to forget about the outside world. You know, your your whole world just becomes taking care of yourself and moving forward.
00:48:03
Speaker
I think there's some of those sort of like feelings 200 mile races where it's sort of all encompassing. And um well it's just a a project of the body. It's a project of the mind. It's a huge undertaking.
00:48:15
Speaker
um And it has a slightly different pace and feel and strategy than 100 mile races do. um Some people are are definitely successful at both, but there are, I think there's some some interesting examples out there too of people who've been really successful at 200 mile races and, you know, maybe you only experienced moderate success at relatively shorter distance races because it takes a little bit of a different skill set.
00:48:42
Speaker
um that yeah some people gravitate to and have a wonderful time with. Yeah. It's really interesting to see this this trend emerging. So looking forward to 2026, one of the things I'm wondering is who shows up at UTMB. you know This year we didn't have 2024 champion, Brulard, or 2023 champion, we've talked about extensively, Jim Walmsley. And or the twenty twenty three chaantt champion who we've talked about extensively jim walmsley and It'll be really interesting to see if Tom goes back. He went three years in a row, but of course he DNF'd the last two and then of course won this year and in good style. So it'll be really interesting to see how the competition, i guess, for that that evolves this year and who decides to put that on their ticket for their A race.
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure we'll see lots of familiar faces. And, you know, maybe something else I find interesting in the sport is there's there's always new names that I've never heard before where people who are ridiculously fast and we're going to see people like that popping up too and having breakout performances. And I think it's i think it's kind of like interesting to think of that there's people that's that's going to happen to them next year and they don't know it yet and we don't know it yet, but we're all going to find out together. So I like to kind of pay attention to what's done in the sport and and see like...
00:50:04
Speaker
Who's that going to be? Who's that person that is just ready to break out? Because they're out there. It's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. When you look more short term at the beginning of the season, you know, some of these races are already starting in February, March.
00:50:21
Speaker
Are there some early barometers, indicators that that you look to? Um, that's an interesting question. I mean, as I kind of mentioned, i think Transgrancanaria is one that I always keep an eye on.
00:50:33
Speaker
Um, there's a few different races in Europe as well. Um, I can't remember it's called. Uh, the, the, the Vincente wine trail in Italy, um always brings out fast yield. Yeah. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Um, and what's the one of the volcano in Sicily? Um,
00:50:55
Speaker
Are you thinking of um Trans... um Volcania. Yeah, Transvolcania. Yeah, it's also on the Canary Islands. That's on the Canaries. Oh, really? Yeah, it's the Canaries.
00:51:06
Speaker
I didn't know where that was. Okay. Showing my ignorance here. That's an early one, though, right? It is an early one. And that one used to be a really big one in the series. And then it kind of got... It wasn't a part of the UTMB World series. it got a little bit left behind. um And I think now it is...
00:51:22
Speaker
act part of UTMB but it's sort of like that went from being one of like the big early season races to now it's it's I think trying to like regain its prominence a bit um yeah so um i mean the UTMB World Series is spread out so much now there's so many different races that sometimes it's almost hard to know what ah a given result will be at all the level of competition is different at all of them.
00:51:48
Speaker
um We're like, you know, I mean, there's, you know, a race that I have my eyes on is like Ultra Trail Snowdonia in Wales. And that is like decidedly very different than than some of the other UTMB races. And um yeah, so sometimes it's kind of hard to know how it's all going to shake out and almost know, just as it, you know, each athlete, there's no, no athlete is defined by one race result. you know it's more like a trend.
00:52:14
Speaker
Um, and so, you know, I like to look at like people who are consistently doing well. I mean, I look at, and going back to little time what we're talking about, 200 milers, there's the the inaugural mammoth 200 this year, but like, uh, my friend Jimmy Elam, he won that race and he also won,
00:52:30
Speaker
um Cascade Crest 100 this year and he won. and he's he He's been undefeated the last two years. You know, and so like that tells lot about his quality thing with Rachel and Trekin who also won the Mammoth 200 and look at her results list and she's won every single race she did 25, 24 believe 23 well.
00:52:49
Speaker
twenty four and i believe in twenty three as well so you know uh i tend to look at that as like an indicator of like who's really high quality then and who just had one phenomenal race and then has faded away because yeah it's it's ah it's a hard old sport uh to keep doing well at over and over things happen like i mentioned with like tom evans it's like it's hard to even if the fitness is there you don't always get the race you want um and sometimes it takes a few tries and it doesn't mean like it for example it doesn't mean like tom was a bad athlete right those other two tries he he clearly had it right and it just took a few tries to get it right and so for for people like i just mentioned there like to get it right over and over again that's what really blows my mind is in the process yeah yeah yeah no i have a lot of admiration for the grit to go back mean was always you know i think that that means means a lot And to your point, like now that he's won, is it as interesting or is there, what's next, you know, does that, how does that evolve in his, in his, in his psychology? So yeah, really interesting. I really enjoy watching these races, following them online. I think the cover, another thing to just talk about is how much better the coverage is
Media and Future of Trail Running
00:54:02
Speaker
getting. Oh yeah. Of, these races it's been a really hard thing in the past to cover it used to be like a twitter feed you'd follow i run far and they'd post tweets you know every 30 seconds of to where people were or whatever and utmb this year i mean they were using seemed like they were using drones they had a lot of follow cams out there and it was actually something you could kind of follow live on on video on on for sure i mean And I think that that is a really exciting development for the sport because if we can get, it's a really exciting thing to watch despite what people may think. And it ah it it could really open up and enlarge the
00:54:43
Speaker
the whole economics of the sport, which means, you know, better purses, better sponsorships for athletes and better organized events, but safer events. And it just kind of lifts the whole sport up if, if it can build a fan base and, you know, there's going to be people who say, Oh, it's not what it used to be and all that. And,
00:55:04
Speaker
I like to think that there are still those races out there that, or there's those other objectives. Something we didn't talk about was, you know, John Kelly I've had on this podcast is a great guy, also running legend and finished the Barclay marathon three times. He tried to do the Appalachian trail FKT 1800 miles, almost 1900 had 300 left and to, had hundred miles almost nineteen hundred miles had three hundred miles left and had to had to DNF, if you will, ah with ah with some with some health problems, sort of compartment, what seemed to be compartment syndrome in an ankle. And, know, there's always new challenges, right? Like, i mean, you know, your your solitude survey that we'll talk about another time. another time. just There's always new ways to express the athleticism. It'll be really interesting to to see how people evolve the evolved the sport in 2026.
00:56:02
Speaker
Thanks for your expertise, your insights, and welcome to the team. It's super great to have you. You're an awesome fit. and um excited to to chat with you again.
00:56:13
Speaker
so Thanks for everybody listening, for welcoming Gabe and putting up with my relative ignorance about trail running. But I think I want to try to bring this perspective that is is as a non-expert that I can, you know, hopefully relate to some of you that were listening today that maybe also don't know about as much about trail running but find it fascinating just just as i do it's one of my missions in 2026 personally to get more ah deeper into trail running and understand it and learn more about it and and and get more into the culture so looking forward to that and hope look forward to taking a lot of you along with me we're gonna just that's a hint
00:57:00
Speaker
And I'll be spending a lot of time talking to trail runners this year in that in that sort of personal personal quest that I'm going to bring a lot of you along with. So thanks again, Gabe.
00:57:13
Speaker
It's been great. And we'll talk soon. Thanks, everyone. Thanks so much.
00:57:31
Speaker
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00:57:48
Speaker
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00:57:59
Speaker
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