Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Marinus Peteresen on LT1
1k Plays15 days ago
Cycling coach Marinus Petersen returns to revisit bicarbonate supplementation tips and to discuss training around the first lactate threshold (LT1). Petersen shares his views on intensity domains, the importance of LT1, and how he incorporates this concept into his coaching.
- Bicarb Neutralization: A discussion on whether mixing bicarbonate with acidic substances like jelly or jam neutralizes its effectiveness. Petersen argues that the acidity of the stomach far outweighs any pre-ingestion neutralization.
- Practicality of Bicarb Use: The challenges of using bicarb in conjunction with a regular work schedule, and tips for timing bicarb intake around workouts.
- Importance of LT1: Petersen considers LT1 the most critical metric for an athlete due to the significant difference in fatigue levels when training above or below it.
- Measuring LT1: Lactate testing to accurately determine LT1, using 10-minute stages with 10-watt increments to pinpoint the threshold.
- Coaching Considerations: A discussion on the challenges of balancing structured training with the enjoyment of riding, allowing flexibility in training as long as the intensity of endurance rides stays below LT1.
- Sub-LT1 Work: Considerations for aerobic training at very long durations at well below LT1 vs. relatively shorter bouts just below LT1.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship Announcement
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey folks, Michael here. Before we get to the second part of my conversation with Marinus Peterson, i want to do a little self-sponsorship and talk a bit about the Cool Bottle, which is now available for sale through eitech.io.
00:00:15
Speaker
dot i o which is of course our website. um We are ready to ship. We are currently working on some mounting options, having had some really good feedback from our early testers ah and also a Garmin mount.
00:00:31
Speaker
But the the bottle itself is ready to go. So if you are doing any warm racing this season, consider giving us a look at eitech.io.
Event Invitation: North American Ironman Championship
00:00:41
Speaker
ah We will also be at the North American Championship for Ironman, the Ironman series in Texas at the end of April.
00:00:49
Speaker
So if you are racing or supporting someone there, come find us and we'd love to have a chat with you. On with the show.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Reintroduction
00:01:02
Speaker
Hi everyone. I'm Andrew. And you're listening to the Endurance Innovation Podcast.
00:01:22
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Endurance Innovation. And joining me for round two, as promised, of our debate is ah Marinus
Bicarb Dosage and Experimentation
00:01:30
Speaker
Peterson. And Marinus, I have to say thank you for agreeing to come back on after I've been arguing with you for the last ah two or three weeks about bicarb dosage. So I'm glad that you're still ah still motivated enough to come and come and talk to me after all that.
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, my my pleasure. And I think in the last VO2 Max block I did myself, I think i figured i calculated i must have had almost half a kilo in 12 days.
00:01:57
Speaker
ah Can you imagine if you were like buying like the Morton product, like how much that would have set you back? You would have needed a pretty good contract with to pay for your buy time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then me and um my friend who I was staying with, who was doing exactly the same thing. We were just, it was like, oh, no, he's going to get more bicarbate. You go to the shop.
00:02:15
Speaker
so At least it's one of those things that you can just, yeah, you can just pop down to the shops and get it. Yeah, exactly. you just get it in your, literally that the local corner shop was selling it. So
Mixing Bicarb with Acidic Mediums
00:02:25
Speaker
just going down there. Perfect. or So listeners, the the the the discussion that Marinus I were having stemmed from his recommendation on our last show about, or his ah his experimentation, let's say he was, he was mixing just as a quick reminder, if you haven't listened to it, he was um mixing bicarb with jelly to ease the passage through the stomach.
00:02:47
Speaker
And then later on, he sent me a note. Hopefully, I'm not spilling any beans here, Marinus, that you you also tried mixing it with just a jam out of the jar. And that seemed to work okay. And um the the question that came up that that I had, and also one of the one of the listeners and one of my friends, Tara Posnikoff, a sports nutritionist, had was, okay, well, jelly and ah jam, they're acidic.
00:03:12
Speaker
And so when you're mixing your bicarb with that acidic medium before you ingest it, are you neutralizing some of the bicarb? um And then I'll leave it at that. Then let's let's go into the debate. So then Marinus responded and I'll turn it over to
Bicarb Absorption and Neutralization Explained
00:03:28
Speaker
you.
00:03:28
Speaker
So my perspective on this is, um i so but bicarbon like is going to be, or just like any substance like water or glucose, or it these nutrients are absorbed into your bloodstream in the small intestine.
00:03:45
Speaker
and So you think food goes down into your mouth, down your esophagus, yeah down into your stomach is the first like organ it's going to arrive in. um And your stomach it basically is there's is is's full of hydrochloric acid.
00:04:00
Speaker
And this is the first place that all like the the food that you've eaten mixes with that hydrochloric acid and it just gets churned. um After the stomach, it then goes to the small intestine, like once it's been pre-churned up into these little bits.
00:04:14
Speaker
that it's finer. Some enzymes are in the stomach as well to start breaking that protease for protein and carbohydrates, enzymes for carbohydrate, et cetera. So different enzymes that are breaking down your food.
00:04:26
Speaker
um So then then it then goes to your small intestine and that's where um the the the various nutrients are absorbed into the bloodstream. So as to whether you're your bicarbonate is mixed with something in in ah in a bowl, in ah in a cup before you ingest it, um or whether it's mixed with that same food in your stomach, like your your small intestine knows no difference.
00:05:00
Speaker
Um, so like, ah given that, like I say, your your stomach is literally full of hydrochloric acid, whatever you're ingesting it with has got to be completely negligible compared to that.
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, i that's that's a really interesting point. And I totally, I'm with you. I'm with you 95% of the way there. ah The crux of my question comes down to dosage more than anything. So we know that ah the
Concerns and Efficacy of Bicarb Dosage
00:05:28
Speaker
the stomach is obviously a very acidic environment. And perhaps, you know, if you if we're just ingesting straight up baking soda, there's going to be that, you know, the the classic example that Morton folks gave us, the the the high school volcano experiment, Right.
00:05:41
Speaker
when you miss when you mix acid and bases, and that's a very uncomfortable gastrointestinal scenario, let's say. But the whole point of you know mixing it with something that that eases the passage through the stomach, ah I imagine protects more of that bicarb and more actual bicarb makes it into your small intestine.
00:06:00
Speaker
So again, my question is around dosage. And here's what I mean. So if we're, if we're let's say, you know aiming for 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight or you know a little bit more, a little bit less, um And that's the reason we're aiming for that number or any real number is because there's some, I imagine, evidence in literature that that is that is an effic that is an efficacious dose.
Effectiveness of Bicarb: Science and Anecdotes
00:06:21
Speaker
I think I just, I wonder if I just made that word up. Anyway, a proper dose. But when you mix it in and in an acidic medium before you ingest it, you are neutralizing some...
00:06:32
Speaker
amount of that bicarb with the acid. Now, it could be a trivial amount, and that's a perfectly reasonable to me answer, but some of it is is um is neutralized. So the point is, before you even if or it even gets in your mouth, there's actually less bicarb than you think.
00:06:47
Speaker
Although if if if, for example, you've eaten some acidic foods in your meal just before, which as per recommendations, it's better to have with, you know around a carbohydrate based meal and that carbohydrate based meal could include acidic foods like orange juice or yeah sure orange or yeah fruit, fruit, basically.
00:07:10
Speaker
um So, i don't see again, i don't see how that's any different from... It's not any different. If you drink some orange juice, then you take the bicarb, or if you mix orange juice bicarb and then drink it.
00:07:22
Speaker
And then otherwise, you'd have to standardize... yeah like the recommendations therefore would be implying that they'd be based on a standardized pre-ingestion meal.
00:07:35
Speaker
um And I don't think, and maybe maybe maybe they are, but I just think whatever whatever the content of your like previous meal is, acid acid the acid content, and that is going to be so negligible compared to the acid content of your stomach.
00:07:53
Speaker
Mm-hmm. i take your I take your point. And I think I'm pretty sure that I'm just splitting hairs. And it's just ah that the the amount of bicarb that's neutralized by the meal itself before the stomach is is probably negligible. Like, i think I think you're probably right because it clearly still works, right? Like, you've done it. I've never, i haven't done your method yet.
00:08:11
Speaker
But, um you know, clearly enough bicarb is getting into your small intestine and then into your blood to to make a difference in your training. Yes, yeah. Anecdotally from you.
00:08:23
Speaker
Well, yeah, and my and my clients. and And also from the scientific literature, that yeah most of the like the Morton products are very new. Yes. the like The wealth of scientific literature on bicarbonate supplementation is not using that. It's just using that.
00:08:41
Speaker
Oh, for sure. I don't know if we know what their ingestion protocols were, but maybe they were mixing it with the the acidic medium. But I think, listen, I think that we're... I'm convinced that that what I'm doing is splitting
Bicarb's Impact on Performance and RPE
00:08:53
Speaker
hairs now and that, yeah, yeah clearly the thing works. i still I still have some packets of jello up in my ah pantry that I have to try you your method. Because honestly, like i ah what I've been doing so far are these enterically coded jello.
00:09:07
Speaker
Capsules and listeners, I'm showing Marinus a bottle of pills for some reason. And I have to take 22 of those in order to get like 0.3 per kilogram dose. And it's a lot of like pill swallowing.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. yeah So definitely going to try your tastier approach next time. Okay. um That's on bicarb. i'm ah i'm ah just or Maybe I'll say one very, very small thing. like As I mentioned, I have been kind of taking bicarb on my workouts, both both bike and run that are north of north the threshold. And I am...
00:09:44
Speaker
I'm definitely a convert. I think the the the RPE for sure and the feeling of my legs is so much better when i'm when I have the bicarb in my system. And it can't all be placebo. um And I've done it now maybe four times. So I think the repeatability is pretty good.
00:09:59
Speaker
um So I definitely see the the value in it. If I can put my hand up to say one final, final thing about bicarb. Of course. It's just when you're saying sensations like that.
00:10:10
Speaker
For me, the feeling is almost like as I'm... So I'd say generally I'm really good at knowing how I feel, like whether my legs are on a good day before I even start pedalling almost.
00:10:22
Speaker
Or when I do start pedalling, I'd say within about 30 seconds to a minute, I almost ah know whether I'm on a good day or not. but And so something like caffeine... kind of gives you that like sensation oh, heading out the door, feel amazing straight away. Yeah. Or, um, the motivation's hard, the RPE is low.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. Or trying to think if anything else that kind of has that effect. But with, with bicarb, it's like, as I'm, it makes me feel kind of almost less hyped and a bit more kind of flat.
00:10:54
Speaker
But then it's like when I then do, when I then do the efforts, it's just like the, the the fatigue just hits you later. So you you just you just do more power. Like, I feel kind of more sluggy.
00:11:07
Speaker
I think a lot of it is to do with the extra water retention, but feel a bit more, like,
Sodium, Hyperhydration, and Intense Training
00:11:12
Speaker
sluggish. And I guess you are kind of bloated because of the, you know, it's like it's an enormous amount of sodium to have. So you are effectively...
00:11:21
Speaker
hyper hydrating and i guess the symptoms i'm describing a ah quite similar to what people describe with hyper hydration which is you know also a useful strategy yeah long races um and so yeah something that yeah you want to get familiar to and then ah once you recognize that and then you realize that yeah it does actually help you push more power um it's okay but i'd still say it does Like, yeah, so so if you say your session is a longer sweet spot or threshold session, and potentially that's you know a reason why you might want to sometimes not do it because if it's not mechanistically helping with the performance, but it is kind of just making you feel a bit less subjectively hyped, then you might not want to do it. um
00:12:13
Speaker
And then the the the water retention, the water attention associated with it, especially say, yeah if you've taken a lot for a couple on, you know, say like when, when I was doing a double day and taking it for session one and session two, yeah that that is a lot of sodium.
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah. It's a lot of sodium. ah what i i yeah was i did about Uh, well I, did about 22, 23 grams a m and PM. And, um, yeah, you, I, I wasn't weighing myself cause didn't want to know, but I could tell that I was retaining a lot of water.
00:12:45
Speaker
ah And so say I was doing a hill climb or something, um that might have been a problem. But um yeah, like pretty much most events anyway are either more what's per CDA dependent or the clock the crucial climb comes at the end.
00:13:03
Speaker
agree. Hydration is actually effective because you're just arriving more you hydrated rather than hyper hydrated. Yeah. ah But it's just something it's something to consider that if you when you first take it, you might not feel better, but give it a chance and actually see how your intervals go before you decide whether you think it's effective or not.
00:13:23
Speaker
That's super interesting. So I know I wanted to like wrap up the bicarb thing, but I feel like I really need to weigh in on a couple of things. So it's really interesting that you you mentioned the flat feeling and I felt it too.
00:13:34
Speaker
And the way that you know I say that RPE is lower, yes, are expected RPE versus, i'm I'm mostly taking it running, running track, um like running these 400s and I know what they feel like and they feel easier.
00:13:48
Speaker
Like I'm not getting the same kind of like my legs aren't giving me the same sort of feedback of like, oh, we're at a stopping point here. That part feels easier. But you're right. Like I do feel ah overall a little bit flatter. So it's interesting that you you mentioned it. I just thought it was just an all in my head.
00:14:02
Speaker
Maybe i was just having like an off day. But um and then the other the the hyper hydrated comment. That's really interesting, too, for. let's say for ah really long races, let's say, um where heat exhaustion or dehydration might be a factor. So entering it in a hyper-hydrated state might be it might be something that's valuable, even if none of the efforts in the race are going to be anywhere north. I mean, you could you could get hyper-hydrated in ah lots of ways. but Yeah, you could just use salt. You wouldn't have to use bicarb.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's true. Less faff of that. Okay. um Amazing. I think the bi carb the the bicarb conversation is super interesting. And I think it's we're going to have more things to say.
Training Around the First Lactic Threshold
00:14:45
Speaker
But let's let's move on to the kind of the meat and potatoes of of today's conversation.
00:14:49
Speaker
And this is what we sort of promised the listeners last time we spoke, mostly on VO2max. ah This time, let's turn down the intensity a little bit and talk more about work around that first lactic threshold.
00:15:02
Speaker
And I know that you you you do quite a bit of thinking and and training and coaching around this intensity, as I think a lot of people do these days. But I definitely want to to get your get your thoughts on it. um And maybe if we do what we did last time, where we start high level, like you you know where you think this fits in into maybe ah a bigger program maybe contextualize it a little bit for us as you see fit and then we can uh dive into more uh kind of more in-depth topics the first i know like general media people tend to talk about like zone one two three four five six maybe up to seven sure um i don't look at it like that i just i just talk i i i guess i look at it from more of a
00:15:45
Speaker
you know So I set people's sweet spot FTP, VO2 max, or anaerobic capacity efforts, whatever.
Three-Zone Model and Training Intensity
00:15:50
Speaker
But in terms of intensity domains, I i think of it around um there a three-zone model where du can you've got sort of zero watts up to LT1 is your zone one.
00:16:04
Speaker
um LT1 up to FTP slash critical power, but whatever you happen to use. um for your second threshold some type of second threshold and mss whatever and then that's your zone two in between those two thresholds and then your zone three is um above that second threshold yeah anyone who's read any literature is very familiar with ah those three intensity domains i think yes they're very common yeah um and so if i would if if i if i could have like one piece of information on a
00:16:38
Speaker
an athlete it would be what is there their their lt1 um because the the implications in terms of fatigue for being over lt1 versus under um um it' is ah it's almost like a binary threshold um where it's like so it's more important to you to know this than than knowing lt2 or slash ftp slash mlss Yeah, definitely.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah. So there's, that there's, there's been some, there's been some papers showing that the, the autonomic disturbance, um, if you, if you're over LT1 is no greater than if you're over the second threshold.
00:17:19
Speaker
So, um, this yeah this This is kind of an argument for polarized training, saying that you know if if if you're going to just do oh go over LT1 even for like a small amount of time, then you might as well do VO2 max intervals or anaerobic capacity, whatever.
00:17:35
Speaker
you know some Or some some severe domain. so I know where I fall on this, but like curious to
Importance of LT1 in Training Management
00:17:40
Speaker
hear your thoughts. If we're since we're, since we're going down this little tiny rabbit hole, ah folks can absorb a lot, still can absorb a fair bit more training in zone two using the three zone model than zone three, right? Like we can do, and do heaps more sweet spot than I can do VO2 max work in terms of like time and intensity.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah. So in terms of like during that session, so, you know, I, I, I don't, I, I, I do set, training in that middle zone but um so yeah on that like session basis you can do um a lot more work in that middle intensity but my point that my point is more and and my philosophy is more that um you have to do once you've once you've gone over lt1 like this there's there's only so many days per year per month
00:18:27
Speaker
that you can go over LT1. And those days could be entirely over LT2, or they could be um entirely in in in that middle zone, or they could be any mixture of the two.
00:18:43
Speaker
so um yes, there's there's there's there's there's effective training. And sometimes you might want to do a session that's in in the zone two in that model. um You might want do sessions are a mixture of the two.
00:18:56
Speaker
but you the lt that's why i'm saying i think lt1 is the most important number to have because then you're making sure that you've got this the the the polarization is between a low intensity day that's not causing this autonomic fatigue or and i won't call it high intensity i just call it you know a session or an intensity day got and that's with some amount of work that's over lt1 so so like the worst the worst type of thing you can do or what i strongly discourage is is it's just like every day just doing some amount of work above lt1 it's going to cause that stress response but isn't going to give you any more adaptation than what ah just a low intensity ride would do for example just like
00:19:44
Speaker
doing four minutes at threshold or something or just go or just drifting into tempo towards the end of your ride because you're dehydrated and tired and you're decoupling but you want to carry on doing the same power you started at the rider or you just chase for a random km or whatever load of rubbish excuses my clients give me so so discipline is important is what i'm hearing you say Yeah, well, it it it is.
00:20:12
Speaker
I think so. and And that's a big part of my coaching philosophy. And, um ah you know, some some clients more and some clients less struggle with that as a concept.
00:20:23
Speaker
um and And sometimes it even makes me reflect, should should I care so much about it? um But what has continued reinforce it is finding that when people's intensity discipline is better, it's it's not something that you notice like the next day.
00:20:41
Speaker
So, for example, if you if you have a three-hour endurance ride and you include two-minute KOM that is 20 watts over threshold or not, i how will you feel the next day?
00:20:54
Speaker
um Probably won't be any different. um If you repeatedly do that, if you do that same thing every week, then that's where you notice the difference in how much are you going to progress this month, this year.
00:21:09
Speaker
I got you. That all makes sense. But that but the the conflict that I have as a coach, now if I'm a sports scientist, you're speaking my language. As a coach, and obviously you're a coach too, how do you um how do you get that how do you um i guess ah satisfy that compliance? And it sounds like your your your threshold for going over LT1 is quite low, like even two minutes, you said, in a three-hour ride.
Maintaining Discipline and Enjoyment in Training
00:21:37
Speaker
ah could potentially disrupt your plan. How do you marry that with just having fun on a bike? I mean, I know where you have to always sort of thread the needle between, you know, having a good time and like and and riding your bike and enjoying it and and doing training. And the reason i ask this question is because I know some people who are super high compliance who will, but you know, twist themselves into a pretzel in order to, you know, they'll ride only flat because they need to not go above LT1 in this example.
00:22:03
Speaker
um Or they'll never ride with friends because they can't do this because their coach told them not to do it. So then how do you navigate the the coaching side of this of this but i don't know dilemma or tension?
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I think there there are a lot of things that you have enormous flexibility around. and those are the things that I try to stress. Yeah. that that like basically so say for example on the days where you have already done some um you know session some work over lt1 you've done some tempo sweet spot threshold you've done a session after that the rest of that ride ah you do go for go for as many random efforts group rides kom's whatever
00:22:45
Speaker
like just just Just get it out of your system on those days. Do whatever you want. I do understand the feeling of it, how it can be liberating to... kind of ride hard in an unstructured way.
00:22:57
Speaker
And even riding hard in an an unstructured way can be, you know, let's say you do a properly hard group ride or a chain gun or a race, or that can be really good training.
00:23:08
Speaker
But like I say, what want to avoid is this cut is is kind of on what should be an intensity day kind of straying, you know, straying above LT1. And then, but ah also like ah as as to like riding with others, I never...
00:23:24
Speaker
I think maybe ah just basically very rarely possibly never have um, made a point about saying that, um, the intent, like the intensity of an endurance ride was too low or like that's, that's, that's a lot. So so are you saying pig slow friends?
00:23:45
Speaker
No, no. What I'm saying, um, but on an endurance ride, um, it's it's not like you have to be if if you go if you go easy like the the intensity is way easier for a bit like ah that's that's fine like that's that's not a problem um but it's it's the one thing I'm just trying to protect is his causing this um autonomic fatigue when when you don't want to be causing it so if if like some rides are a bit shorter or they're a bit longer or a bit higher power they're a bit closer to LT1 like none of that I'm
00:24:21
Speaker
is is not as consequential and I think you've got more flexibility around or do you split up your days like do you in rather than do two hours here and three hours there do you know four hours and one hour or you know like I think or do you do quite a lot longer ride at quite lower power or you know I think there's or do do you coast on this descent you there's there's lots of like different ways that which your training can actually be quite flexible.
00:24:51
Speaker
um But it's just this one principle I try to um just to say if it's important to to try and pay attention to. No, I get that. But even like even terrain, I don't know where you train, but You know, it's not particularly hilly in Southern Ontario. Some parts are pretty flat around where I am. It's rolling at most, but you know, at 82, 83 kilos, if I get a hit a grade of even 5% or more, there's no way that I'm getting up that unless I'm walking with my bike under my LT1, which is not very high, but you know, I'm probably a little bit better trained than most. So it's it's tough on those, you know, on the and even just like mildly rolling terrain to keep it keep it under.
00:25:36
Speaker
Hey folks, ah future Michael breaking into the podcast. um After my recording with Marinus, ah he sent me some notes that he wanted included in the conversation. He thought about some of the stuff we were talking about and wanted to add these points.
00:25:51
Speaker
ah So the first one is on LT1. So I'm just going to read directly from the email that Marina sent me. As to how much time above LT1 is physiologically meaningful and enough to cause autonomic stress, the studies on including sprints and endurance rides, sprints, as long as 30 seconds and pretty well-trained people don't seem to cause any autonomic stress.
00:26:13
Speaker
Which leads me to wonder how long and hard does it never have to be to cause the autonomic distress? I would imagine that if a 30 second sprint is okay, then perhaps 60 seconds plus slightly over LT1 or even FTP in a single bout to get up the hill, for example, would be okay.
00:26:28
Speaker
But I'd also imagine that this depends on the training status and other individual factors. Another one where no one really knows. My approach would just be to try and minimize the risk of causing this autonomic stress whenever possible on non-intensity days.
00:26:42
Speaker
I do, however, prescribe short sprints on endurance rides frequently.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, and another um another thing I say is is for for for endurance rides, it's quite useful is it if you just if you know what your LT1 heart rate is, um just just have so i've i've got a screen where i can send you a picture of the screen that's basically just time average heart rate and current heart rate and and that can be a lot more like less stressful because you're not like let's say you know you to pull away from a stoplight so to get over a small hill you're doing yeah you're going to peak a little bit yeah you're doing 400 watts for 10 20 seconds like if it's not increasing your breathing your rpe and your um and your heart rate beyond lt1 heart rate then it's not then id i would call that not physiologically meaningful
00:27:34
Speaker
Okay, I love that answer. Yeah. ah Since we're talking about LT1 heart rate, I think this is a really good segue into my my question if ah to you.
Lactate Testing for LT1 Measurement
00:27:44
Speaker
And given that this ah this break you know metabolic breakpoint of LT1 is so valuable in your thinking, and I definitely don't disagree, how do you measure it?
00:27:55
Speaker
it's It's a little bit less straight straightforward than maybe the the second threshold. So what do you do for measuring LT1 power and heart rate? Yeah, so increasingly I'm encouraging people to, when they've got the option, use lactate testing.
00:28:10
Speaker
Okay. one And so if you have the option of lactate testing, basically we want to start a good comfortably below LT1 and then just do 10 minute, 10 watt stages.
00:28:26
Speaker
um And then I'm- You're a really long stage guy. I like it. None of this like three minute steps. Yeah, so i from I remember from when I was in Loughborough and lot other people on the cycling program I was on were finding that they they were using four-minute stages and the LT1 it would give you from that basically.
00:28:46
Speaker
You go out and ride on that in the real world and it would feel like it was over yeah for most people most of the time. It doesn't stabilize fast enough, does it? No, no.
00:28:57
Speaker
So if if you can go to, if if someone's thinking of doing this and you want to go to a lab and labs, they seem to like doing shorter stages because they often say, you know, we want to get it done. They get you out the door faster, yeah.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah, so... but But then that they also seem to start at an incredibly low power, which is absolutely miles away from your LT1. So the tests can end up taking the same amount of time.
00:29:23
Speaker
They've just got a little load of... wasting a load of time riding it like, you know... 30% of LT1 or whatever it is at the start and then they just yeah and then they also go in like 25 watt increments so if you know if if 25 watts could be a big you know really big change someone that that could be how much someone progresses by in a year yeah that resolution is really poor if the steps are that big Yeah, if the step's that big and they're three minutes long, it's going to give you both inaccurate and low-resolution data. So um if you can if you can buy but buy both power, heart rate, RP, you get quite a good idea of where your LT1 is.
00:30:03
Speaker
And then basically, so to basically then what warm up well at you know much easier power, which you could perhaps do on the road or before you go to your testing place. um So then when you you arrive, yeah you maybe do...
00:30:16
Speaker
a little bit of easier riding before but just try and cut to the chase quite quickly of being within say 20 or 30 watts of your estimated lt1 um so you you want you do want at least i say two 10 minute stages that you reasonably confident are below and and then you you just progress 10 watts until until you can see the lactate is increasing um a good amount above your baseline and then when i'm looking to interpret the data i'm looking for you know the the first the first stage which is um you you're just seeing an increase in that baseline and i'd i'd from whatever that baseline is and i look for something like a 0.4 millimole
00:31:04
Speaker
increase but you know it's it's often yeah you you kind of have to just sort look at the data and and think what seems reasonable because you quite often have bit of up and down anomalies and say yeah you might have had a stage an earlier stage that was a bit higher and then it goes down and comes back up or the the stage before is just a little bit higher and then you see only another naught point too or yeah You know what I mean? is isn't's it's more I'd go more on like looking at the the actual data. And then for those of us who do not have access, ready access to a lactate tester or lab, there a reasonable proxy?
LT1 Proxies Without Lab Access
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah, so i think there's... i get I go a bit off heart rate and I go um bit off RPE and also just and and using... Yeah, I think i think that the torque test is has some utility, but um ah you also see that like that can that can get you kind of roughly in the right zone.
00:32:05
Speaker
For some people, it's going to get you a bit too high and some people a bit too low. And then it's also like... You can still kind of talk when you're at thresholds sort of thing. Yeah, you exactly. Like what exactly does... i will I love the talk test, I think, but it's almost like you want to be able to have a conversation. And then it feels a little weird having a conversation with yourself in a test.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I think you should be able to have a conversation. You should be able to eat eat ah you know something real like a... an apple or a chocolate bar or and rice cake.
00:32:35
Speaker
um And I think you should, you should, you should be able to kind of like, you even sing in your short, short bursts. um yeah the I was, I i did ah a little bit of work, but a little while back with, with a triathlon coach, David Tilbury Davis has been on the podcast a couple of times.
00:32:55
Speaker
And his ah his test for LT1 was like field test, very rough test, was if you can sing Baba Black Sheep, if you can sing the whole thing um without struggling, then you're probably at you know at or below.
00:33:08
Speaker
Well, like at Kilowatt Coaching, we use Black Eyed Peas, Where Is The Love? say Sure. Yep. Pick your favorite song. Yeah, yeah. So um if you're really desperate, you can watch me singing that on the trainer just under LT1.
00:33:24
Speaker
I got my clients to do the same. but And do they have to record themselves and send them to you? Is that part of the, like, do you attach that file to the training peaks file? Yeah, that's part of it. Yeah, yeah.
00:33:35
Speaker
but I like it. It's a little bit more interactive than just like, you know, felt like a six. um Okay. So the preference seems to be clearly for, for the lab testing, but there's some, there's some ad hoc stuff we can do.
00:33:47
Speaker
And then finally, um with heart rate, I'd, uh, ah Yeah, I think like sort of 70 to 80% of max heart rate is is getting you, can can get you kind of in in the right area. but that's a pretty broad range, right? Yeah, it's a pretty broad range.
00:34:06
Speaker
and um But with all of this stuff, I'd say fall back on, you're always better to under than overestimate given the previous conversation around the implications of being slightly over.
00:34:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Got it. Got it. So then as you think about sort of, yeah so now let's say we're, we, we agree that you want to do, you want to protect your easy efforts. Okay. That's, that's an
Integrating LT1 into Training Plans
00:34:34
Speaker
important point.
00:34:34
Speaker
We have a pretty good idea of where LT1 is, cause we've done some lab testing, let's say, um where do you go from there with, uh, the folks you coach or with yourself now that you have this armed with this information, what it comes next.
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, so um most most most of, even someone on yeah what might look called relatively lower volume, so, you know, eight to ten hours a week, um still, like, most most of their training will, over the course of a year, will be you know under that threshold. So, its ah you know, an endurance or recovery day.
00:35:10
Speaker
So it's it's kind of an optimization problem between that. The constraints you have are how much time do you have for this ride? and How much work? Like,
00:35:21
Speaker
see yeah How much fatigue is it acceptable to generate from this training session, which will depend on um you know like what' where you are in your training block and your training cycle. So if it if it is like a VO2 max block, that fatigue budget will be lower.
00:35:39
Speaker
if If you've got a hard session the next day, that fatigue budget is lower. If you're in a block where you are just trying to maximize the peripheral adaptations associated with um this sub-LT1 work, then that fatigue budget can be higher.
00:35:54
Speaker
So those are two of your constraints, is how much time do you have and what is your fatigue budget? Interesting, okay. And then within those two constraints, you're like, how do I maximize the work done?
00:36:06
Speaker
So if you're like, we want to um get the most, we've got loads of time, we want to get the maximum amount of work done and our fatigue budget is quite high because of the training block we're in, then you might do a very long ride and we might also include a good amount of time that's really quite close to your LT1.
00:36:29
Speaker
or you might or if you're ah if if you want to you might your fatigue budget might be lower because you're in a vo2 max block but you've got a lot of time so you still be so you can still get quite a lot of work in by doing a really easy power and perhaps still doing five six hours but you just keep even during a vo2 max block Yeah, I did a seven hour ride in my vehicle.
00:36:57
Speaker
Well, we we we have to be a little bit careful comparing ourselves to you though, Marenus. yeah yeah Yeah, but with, so if I just illustrate the intensity of that ride, um it was about 55, 60% of quite easy.
00:37:16
Speaker
oh so quite quite easy Yeah, so I think my LTE, anyway, you don't need to know the numbers yet, but as as a percentage of my LTE1, it was is very low. um its It was like, you know, one to two out of 10 RPE.
00:37:30
Speaker
um so So like I say, it's still getting a very large amount of work done. but generating not much fatigue and doing it over a very long ride because I had enough time to do that. Even it did make me feel very busy because you know it a lot of days.
00:37:47
Speaker
Yeah, so another possible example is if if you're time restricted, um you only have 90 minutes to ride, um your fatigue your fatigue budget might be really it might and might But but um you almost wouldn't change the ride duration as much because even if you go really close to LT1, there's still not much fatigue generated.
00:38:14
Speaker
So whether you're in a VO2 As long as you're close but below, right? As long as you're close but below, yeah. ye So whether you're in a VO2 max block, whether you've got a race the next day, or whether you're in like a volume block,
00:38:26
Speaker
the intensity might not really, you might not change that. Because if you've only got 90 minutes to ride, um you know, as long as you keep it under LT1, the fatigue is pretty negligible either way. Or not negligible, but it's low either way.
00:38:41
Speaker
um So that's that's a big part of the model a model I use. However, ah i think I think this accounts for 80, 90, maybe 95% of what you want to consider with your sub-LT1 endurance
Training Strategies Based on LT1 Levels
00:38:58
Speaker
work.
00:38:58
Speaker
However, I don't think it's everything and that's what we can go on to. Yeah, before we do before we go into the remaining 5% to 10%, I don't know if you what what your experience is with coaching folks who are you know broad swaths of fitness.
00:39:15
Speaker
So one thing you said that that i want to that sort of stood out to me is when you were saying that, okay, you did seven-hour ride, which is huge no matter how hard you're working, and it's only 60%, let's say, of your LT1.
00:39:27
Speaker
But for you, and I know you don't want to talk numbers. I'm not going to ask you for numbers. That's not what we're here for. I'm happy to disclose anything, yeah. Okay, sure. let's we can We can compare numbers. so like so ah what's So what's LT1 for you? And then we can throw actual numbers at it.
00:39:43
Speaker
and I think right now about 350 watts. 350 watts. Okay. So very, very healthy. So let's say, you know, 50% of that 175, 60% is, what, like 195 ish. So kind of in the nineties. Yeah. So this, this seven, all right.
00:39:54
Speaker
202 watts. Okay. Okay.
00:39:58
Speaker
ah this seven all right two hundred and two okay There you go, 202 watts. so so that is um that So that's still a reasonable amount of mechanical power, right? Like you're still, you know, there's still some force in the pedals, even though for you metabolically, that is a very relatively light intensity.
00:40:18
Speaker
But let's take somebody with an LT1 of like 150 watts, where like less than half of you, which is a lot of the folks I work with, that's, that's you know, older people maybe, like people who are less well-trained, maybe people coming into it later in life.
00:40:30
Speaker
This is like in the triathlon world, that's the kind of that the the the the meaty part of the bell curve is going to be more like 150, 175, 200 watts, Yeah, but it sounds typical of a lot of my clients as well.
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah, so then for them, 50% of that is like 80 watts. eighty watts 100 watts. Do you know what I mean? So like relatively speaking, they would have to, and and then and then I imagine the peripheral strain is lower just because it's it's just much less mechanical power. So metabolic strain relative to their LT1 may be comparable, but if we're doing peripheral adaptations, that's why we're doing these really long rides.
00:41:05
Speaker
we We would need to manipulate something there or or do I have that wrong? So yeah, a lot of it, there's a lot of factors to that. I bet. And often ah people with a lower LT1 are often more time restricted and or don't want to ride as much.
00:41:24
Speaker
um It's kind of like the they they're they're related they're somehow related, I think. Yes, exactly, yeah. and so So with them, yeah, like that very rarely with someone with that sort of LT1 are we doing really long rides, um like way below LT1 because people don't have the time to do it.
00:41:46
Speaker
Although when they do, I i do i do encourage that. um Another factor also to consider there is I think, yeah yes, you're right, that pretty much the higher your LT1 gets,
00:41:57
Speaker
the less time you can spend really close to it. i' and And I found this, for example, if I do um like if i do even like much more than three hours really close to LT1,
00:42:11
Speaker
I can just put myself in such a big energy deficit. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah. Yeah. And such a big energy deficit. And also I think the neuromuscular fatigue is, is a lot higher because it's, it's like, you think part of anything else is closer to like my maximum vol voluntary contraction. close to my peak power.
00:42:32
Speaker
Um, so the neuromuscular fatigue actually, you does, does start becoming really big. Whereas with people with, um, lower absolute LT1, both relative to their second threshold, but also just as an absolute number, they they can spend more time closer to it, I i found in my coaching experience.
00:42:56
Speaker
i think I think that's spot on. yep Yeah. So for example, I found a female client I've had who's very small ah you know compared to, yeah, you want't know what it just yeah so smaller, um can can has has been able to do really large amounts of work really close to their LT1 um long rides day after day and and seems to recover from it very well um which for larger individuals individuals I think would be impossible um yeah yeah my coaching experience kind of supports that I mean I think there's there's many many factors for this to this but um I don't know if you've looked at this stuff that's found that
00:43:45
Speaker
Basically the amount carbohydrate you can absorb almost doesn't change with your size. Yes. I have seen this. yes I actually just had a conversation with an athlete about this. We were talking about absorption rates. Yep. Yep. Yeah, so smaller people can absorb almost as many carbohydrates per hour as a larger person.
00:44:06
Speaker
So if you've got ah like a 50 kilo female whose LT1 is 200 watts or you know a larger male whose LT1 is 350, healthy one is three fifty then like they can still they can still both only absorb, say, 120 an hour.
00:44:25
Speaker
But for the 50 kilo female, thats that's more than they're actually oxidizing. Oh, yeah. more than their more than where that's this is More than their requirements. Whereas I could be taking 120 grams of carbs an hour and it's still not, you know, still not even getting halfway there or whatever. So it's, yeah, I think that's one of the factors, but for sure, like I say, it's very, it's very multi multifactorial and,
00:44:51
Speaker
No, I totally get it. And without getting specific examples, I think broad strokes, and and that's why, you know, harking back to what you were saying about your, you know, your fatigue um budget and your total time. If we can, the more I think generalizable the advice is for folks, the easier it is to adapt to their specific ah yeah situation, right?
Fueling Strategies for Training Sessions
00:45:10
Speaker
So I totally like it and I ah totally agree with you. That's kind of where I was going with bit of a leading question about you know what what you're not how you would perform the training relative to your absolute LT1 value.
00:45:22
Speaker
And then my follow-up was going to be on fueling, which you started already talking about. So why don't we go there next? And like how do you how do you fuel these rides when you're when you're doing these you know ah substantially below LT1 rides that are maybe longer? Yeah.
00:45:35
Speaker
Yeah. So this, this, this, um, this is interesting and, uh, it, uh, quite often what I actually get with, um, clients with like lower absolute LT1 is I find they're actually, they, they listen to lots of stuff about, you know, taking in high hip amounts of carbohydrate and, and I've, and I've had people taking on like 120 grams an hour to do two hour rides at 200 Watts.
00:46:01
Speaker
Um, and, uh, Yeah, basically. I shouldn't laugh. I think i've seen i've seen those i've I've seen that too. And I've actually tried it before. It's a little bit little excessive.
00:46:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um So when i'm when I'm thinking of how much does carbohydrate does someone need, I'm thinking about um but most mostly just what is their...
00:46:27
Speaker
What is the absolute energy and carbohydrate expenditure looking like? So for someone who's, you know, who's doing a ride at 200 watts, if their LT1 is 220 versus if you're doing a ride at 200 watts and your LT1 is 300 plus, the i probably yeah I probably wouldn't change the fueling recommendations much of at all.
00:46:54
Speaker
Hmm. So it's it's it's just watts related, right? Like you're looking at the wattage output and not- So I'm looking, so so that that's that's one component to it, okay is the is the um the absolute power output. But then that's also got to be coupled with the duration.
00:47:12
Speaker
So if you're doing a really long ride, But it's it's um a sort of very low percentage of your threshold. So, like, if you're doing, like, for for me, if I'm doing, like, a long ride, seven-hour ride at 200 watts, I might still, especially in those last three hours, be on taking in 100 grams of carbs an hour um just because...
00:47:38
Speaker
and My glycogen is also running low by that point. um yeah so And also just to manage the total energy demand of the day. um Whereas if this is say it's a two hour ride at 200 watts, I might have 20 grams of carbs an hour.
00:47:56
Speaker
and So is yeah it feed feed the the considerations are absolute energy expenditure. and right, yeah, when i said yeah absolute power output and duration, which feeds into absolute energy expenditure.
00:48:14
Speaker
you're not taking into account relative ah relative power to LT1. My question is, if you're using your two examples of you're you're working at 200 watts and your LT1 is 350, and I'm working at 200 watts and my LT1 is actually around 220. So that was like you picked that number that was that fits me well.
00:48:32
Speaker
um You're oxidizing a lot more fat than I am to produce those 200 watts. So doesn't that figure into your your calculus? ah ah A little bit, yeah. And like I said, I would... i would I would account for that to some extent.
00:48:45
Speaker
okay But I don't think... it It wouldn't be as different as you think because your your fat oxidation, as long as you... And also, if you think about your fat ma ah fat max curve...
00:48:58
Speaker
it peak it's pretty much the same as LT1. So your maximum fat oxidation is going to be at around 220 watts. um So your and my fat oxidation might be actually very similar.
00:49:11
Speaker
Okay, at that specific power. But what happens is like, My fat oxidation curve would keep on going up beyond that, whereas yours starts going down. Starts to go down. ah You know what? That makes a heap of sense.
00:49:25
Speaker
Okay. I'm with you. Love it. Sorry, you said one one thing before I cut you off to make my but my my but poorly thought out point. um You were talking... Go ahead. But yeah, so this is another quite important one is... um and think i I think about what's the next training session. um so quite, say say it's ah someone's got ah a gym session later in the day, I might i might get them to kind of overfuel the ride, especially in the last hour.
00:49:58
Speaker
i might say, you have 150 grams of carbs in the last hour because you've got a gym session in the evening or um Or if you've got some... I found it can work quite well to do say, you know, so someone's got the time do like a three, four hour endurance ride, or say someone has a day off, then they do three, four hour endurance ride, then the next day is some intensity.
00:50:22
Speaker
um So then on that three to four hour ride, we might fuel really high just to speed up recovery for the next day. Versus if the next day is a rest day, um in those last couple of hours, especially, you might try and bring the carbohydrate down more.
00:50:40
Speaker
um So that's another big consideration is thinking, where is what's coming up in the next couple of days of training? And um yeah, thinking of the implications of fueling higher or lower.
00:50:54
Speaker
Understood. um So we're taking log through these questions i have for you, which is which is super cool. um I got a couple more and then we can talk about, you know, we can take this in whatever direction you want. um I'm curious about when you're working with with folks who are, you know, fast muscle fiber type versus slow muscle fiber type dominant or, you know, call it something else if you like, glycolytic.
00:51:17
Speaker
the gifted athletes versus glycolytically limited athletes. Do you change your prescription and how you ask them to do this sort of yeah aerobic training? A little bit, I think a lot of that is actually just reflected in the fact that someone who is more slow-twitch dominant will have their LT1 closer to their second threshold.
00:51:40
Speaker
um Okay, so it's baked in. Yeah, so I think that'll take care of a lot of it. um Another thing that to also say a kind of account for that is that people's, um the durability of someone's LT1 is quite variable.
00:51:56
Speaker
um So there's there's a good study but by James Bragg, which was in pretty well-trained cyclists. um They found that on average, after two and a half hours of riding at LT1, their LT1 had decreased by 10% on average.
00:52:14
Speaker
So you think some of your, like, as as you say, more fast, which John went glycolytic, um type uh type athletes might might be you know see 25 30 decrease in lt1 after two and a half hours and so what you're looking for is is is to look at how durable your lt1 is and make sure that um you you you decrease the power as the session goes on so that you're not um effectively you know riding tempo as the session goes on.
00:52:50
Speaker
um So, yeah, that that that that can improve with it as a function of training, but I'd imagine that there's there's some kind of genetic component there, which is meaning that some people are always going to be more or less durable.
00:53:05
Speaker
um So some people are always going to have to drop their power towards the end of endurance rides or some people are going to be able to keep it closer to what it was at the start. So if you got your LT1 in a lab in you know a short session, let's say that the kind that you described and you have you know you arrive at a value, how would you know what your durability looks like? how If you're doing a a longer session with an LT1 component, how would you know that you need to start tapering that that target power off?
00:53:32
Speaker
So heart heart rate is one one way. um So your LT1 heart rate is going to be quite quite so quite stable.
00:53:42
Speaker
um okay I would say if anything, the only thing to be careful of there is as you get really fatigued, your LT1 heart rate can actually come down. So if you're if you if you're if you're riding it what you think is your LT1 heart rate and you're also tired and you know you're tired,
00:54:02
Speaker
and it feels like it's too hard to bright ride right at it, it means yeah you just need to ride a lower power, which is probably more like what you'd normally expect to ride at.
00:54:17
Speaker
um So it is but it is really key to to to get to calibrate the feel of what riding LT1 is like, because you know i'll I'll often prescribe people to do little blocks at the end of a longer ride close to LT1.
00:54:36
Speaker
And you know you've likeke if you don't know what it feels like you to write to ride at that intensity, then you're like,
00:54:47
Speaker
the there's there's ah there's nothing i can do to help you from is that so you need you need to get um you need to get good at fit feeling out because um you got you can't take a lab with you everywhere essentially for sure it's really interesting like i we you know when i first started coaching don't know 15 16 18 i don't know you know a long time ago I was very, you know, i as a mechanical engineer, very motivated to find data and and evidence and be very prescriptive about it and didn't pay too much attention to, you know, perceived exertion or just the feeling of the ride. And the more I talk, the more kind of I grow as a coach and the more I talk to smart people, the more that, you know, I come to the realization you you'll you can never get away from knowing what it feels like being a key component of intensity ah sort of control.
00:55:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely crucial. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. um What about cadence? I know we we definitely spent some time talking about cadence in our last session when you we were talking about high cadence VO2 max efforts.
00:55:51
Speaker
ah do you ah Do you use cadence as ah as ah as a control mechanism for, ah you know, ah zone one training? um so i sometimes include blocks of uh like high extra high cadence um to to practice um like just becoming more efficient and comfortable at that high cadence for when people do do vo2 max efforts um but in general no for endurance rides i
00:56:22
Speaker
and or sometimes even recovery rides i just i uh encourage people to ride a bit of a high cadence to minimize the neuromuscular fatigue or even on in endurance rides but in in general i am um i i'm yeah i don't put much emphasis on on cadence um i don't i i'm very much aware of people think encouraging use of lower cadence on endurance rides to aim for specific adaptations. But um i don't I don't agree with the logic for doing that.
00:56:57
Speaker
There's a lot of it out there, especially around LT1 or even higher, like even like Tempo Sweet Spot at low cadence for... you know supposedly for you know increasing, let's say, fractional utilization.
00:57:08
Speaker
So you know pushing second threshold closer to VO2 max. I've done it before. It was effective for me. but you know Yeah, but what yeah what I would say there is whatever intervals you did or yeah whatever endurance riding did, whatever intensity it was,
00:57:25
Speaker
um you've you don't know that you would have gotten the same response by doing it in that short case. 100%. I wasn't controlled. it was there was this This wasn't an experiment. This was ah at best a case study. Yeah, I take your point.
00:57:37
Speaker
So the big thing that I want to cover that we've managed to slip past um it so is is like we were saying, I think 90, don't know, it's just really hard to quantify, 80 to 95% is at these...
00:57:54
Speaker
is ah is about just looking at these you the the constraints of your time availability and your fatigue budget and and optimizing kilojoules um they based yeah within those two constraints. So so that's, so like I said, but but that that is most of it.
00:58:13
Speaker
But I think that is missing something that particularly once you start becoming more well-trained and you you want to really optimize everything, and that that that it becomes a bit more complex than that.
Motor Unit Recruitment in LT1 Training
00:58:27
Speaker
let's let's, if we're comparing, you can get the same work done by riding a lot further below LT1, or you can get it done by riding really close to it.
00:58:39
Speaker
So if you're doing it much further below, you're only recruiting the smallest motor units. um whereas if you do it close to alti one you're recruiting a lot of bigger motor units so by motor units i'm talking about muscle fibers um it was was more people would perhaps to be familiar with and so like when what if you go to pick up a pencil then you like because it's not very heavy you won't use many motor units you're not recruiting a lot of force if go to pick up a 10 kilo weight i'm gonna have to use a lot more
00:59:16
Speaker
motor units to be able to do that sure and it's the same the same principle would bit apply if you want to ride at 100 200 300 400 watts whatever so and each one and and to do that you're not each of those muscle fibers um but basically to just to lift that heavier thing or to to increase more force you It's not that any of those muscle fibers tries harder. It's not that it produces more force.
00:59:44
Speaker
It's that you actually just use more muscle fibers. So then if then if the other part of this is we'rere we're doing it because we want peripheral adaptations.
00:59:57
Speaker
in the muscle fibers. So this, whereas with the VO2max work we're talking about, that that was a lot of focus on central adaptations. Whereas with with this work, a lot of it is is about peripheral.
01:00:09
Speaker
So it's about how much of the oxygen that we're taking in can our muscles use to do work on the pedals. and so if So for example, our the muscles in our arms are not getting those peripheral adaptations.
01:00:27
Speaker
because we're not using our arms to pedal. So swimmers would have really good, um, you mitochondrial density, um, really lots of, uh, really dense capillary networks in their upper body, but not in their legs and cyclists vice versa.
01:00:44
Speaker
So if you're doing all your. That you just, you're making a case for triathlon right there. I think. mar Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a good sport. um So if you're doing all your sub-LT1 work really far below your LT1, then how can you be sure that you're actually getting all those peripheral adaptations into all spread out across all the motor units in your legs that you want them to be? Interesting. the The motor units that you want to be durable,
01:01:15
Speaker
ah you one to the motor units well yeah you want them to be durable but more you want them to be everywhere so that when you ride at threshold or you ride at lt1 you ride at those higher intensities that they're actually there because let's just say hypothetically you're you're only getting those adaptations in the and the motor units to ride at 100 watts.
01:01:37
Speaker
Okay, so they're becoming, you know, they're really oxidative. They've got really dense capillary networks and lots of mitochondria, but that that there's not many of them. So when you want to ride your threshold, which is two, three, four times it would higher than that,
01:01:56
Speaker
they can only help you so much because they're not in many motor units. Whereas if you're doing a good amount of your sub LT1 work really close to your LT1 and your LT1 is also close to your threshold at what and or it is, then you're getting...
01:02:12
Speaker
those peripheral adaptations into more of the motor units. So i think there's a good, this is this is this the reason why like you'll see um a lot of pro cycling teams, most famously UAE, who yeah yeah perhaps a bit because of this, you know or perhaps not at all because of this, but I think they are on to bit of something. and they do They spend a good amount of time riding really close to their LT1,
01:02:42
Speaker
um and And I think this is because of this reason like that, like, especially once you're more well-trained, your LT1 can be quite close to your second threshold.
01:02:53
Speaker
So you can get a lot of time getting peripheral adaptations into those motor units that are, you know most of the ones you're going to use to ride at threshold, but you're not creating any autonomic fatigue. And also because you're not creating any autonomic fatigue and you can do a lot more of this work than you could do threshold work.
01:03:13
Speaker
Yeah. Providing you're eating like an animal, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Especially if your LT1 is in like the mid 300s. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:25
Speaker
Future Michael back again. ah This is a ah note that Marinus sent me again after the after our conversation. And this one has to do with recruitment and long rides.
01:03:37
Speaker
Here's what he wrote. Motor unit recruitment on endurance rides. Duration has an effect here too. Patty Harrison did a PhD at Loughborough comparing physiological responses to a two-hour and a five-hour endurance ride.
01:03:50
Speaker
um and at the same power. He found that you start using type two fibers towards the end of the five hour ride, but not at the end of the two hour ride. So that goes some way to show how I found you can get near enough everything you need by doing endurance rides really easy, as long as the endurance rides are super long, like six or seven hours.
01:04:09
Speaker
Obviously, for people who are time restricted, this is not an option. It does explain how similar results or levels of performance are reached by riders on teams like UAE, who do less volume with a lot of time at 90 to 100% of LT1, and teams like Yombo Visma or Ineos, who do more training hours, um more total kilojoules, but ride at more like 60% of LT1 on longer endurance rides.
01:04:36
Speaker
that makes That makes a heap of sense. But then i'm going to throw this back at you, um ah you know being a contrarian. ah Wouldn't low cadence work at this this intensity also increase the the muscle recruitment and kind of get you the same sort of stimulus that you're talking about?
01:04:53
Speaker
Yeah, but you've got to think about what's... um
01:05:00
Speaker
what's the ah like what What drives the peripheral adaptation is is the is is the work done, like the the flux through the muscle. The flux of like blood and nutrients, you mean, yeah? yeah Yeah, and and the and the energy demand on the muscle.
01:05:17
Speaker
okay Are you actually changing that? like what What drives energy demand is actually the power output, isn't it? Yes, I totally agree with you. Yeah. But then if you're if you're not changing the energy demand because you're not changing the mechanical power, but you're increasing the the you know the force required to generate it when you're spinning a lower cadence, bigger gear, increasing the force demands, wouldn't you need to recruit more muscles in order to produce that force in order to then produce that power?
01:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, but you're doing it less times per minute or whatever. Yes. Yeah, the this the cyclic rate is lower, yeah. Yeah, so you end up in the same place. Interesting. i have no I have no evidence whatsoever to to to contend with what you're saying. i'm just yeah No, because someone put the same question to me, and I went and thought about it a lot.
01:06:09
Speaker
But then that but that's what I came to because... It's dependent on the work done. And yes, like per pedal stroke, you're getting more stimulus, but you're doing less pedal strokes.
01:06:25
Speaker
Yeah. ah you and But I mean, if the goal is to recruit more, a greater percentage of your muscle, of your motor units. so I don't know. I'm curious. I think like, so...
01:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, think it would, it would so you'd, yeah, each pedal stroke you'd you'd recruit more motor units, but then because you're doing like less pedal strokes, yeah the total stimulus into them would end. Yeah, and that might that might be a thing, right? Like that maybe you, you know, what you were saying earlier is you get these, you know, that you're recruiting only the smallest motor units and you're training them super, super well when you're doing these really long rides at very low intensity.
01:07:03
Speaker
And the trade-off here maybe is, and purely guessing, this is just like totally out of my butt. um You're recruiting more of these units, but perhaps the the training stimulus for each one of them you're recruiting is lower because of course, to your point, it's the total energy demand is lower. The total work done is lower.
01:07:20
Speaker
Sorry, no, the total work done is the same. Yeah, the energy demand. When we're going into the more granular of getting in the right motor units, then we're going into the... We want the energy demand per motor unit, which I'm saying would be the same either way.
01:07:36
Speaker
it's it's one of those It's one of those things that like no one like no one actually knows to this point. And I'm just discussing with someone but potentially potentially even looking to do a PhD on comparing these things because...
01:07:51
Speaker
i just I just want to know because yeah it's it's like 80, 90%, like we said, even for your eight, 10 hour a week athlete, it's still most of your training is this sub-LT1 work. so and and there's And how many papers are there on optimizing your interval training? And there's almost none on this.
01:08:14
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it kind of drives them crazy. and when you When you do this, when you get your PhD, Marinus, and you you but you go to publish, come come back and talk to me about what you found because I'm i'm also super curious. because You're absolutely right. There's so much stuff. we're talking to I'm getting off topic, but where I'm talking to this guy who i have done i was a lab rat actually for him because he was in Toronto. He was at the University of Toronto here.
01:08:37
Speaker
Wow. ah Michael Rosenblatt, who just published, he was one of the co-authors on a big meta-analysis of pyramidal versus um ah versus polarized training with some interesting studies.
01:08:50
Speaker
Well, interesting findings, I mean. and like this yeah Yeah, it's a really, it was a pretty fresh paper. So we're going to have him on the show too. But um yeah, to your point, like it's all of that stuff is...
01:09:01
Speaker
but I mean, I think they did have some low intensity studies, that studies that were just like the the participants were low intensity only, but the vast majority are included training above the second threshold. Now is the focus maybe.
01:09:13
Speaker
um But no, there's not really a lot of stuff out there for, ah as you say, but below that first threshold. Yeah, I think you should do it. I hope you do. Yeah, well, I will at some point. I just got to you know win a few grand tours You've got your priorities sorted. I can see that.
01:09:33
Speaker
um Marinus, man, this has been this has been awesome. This is like, I think, two for two for for really solid content. And I know I learned a heap more stuff, especially your point on ah um fat oxidation that I had a little bit backwards. That was really cool for me.
01:09:49
Speaker
um So thank you again for for taking the time. um i forgot to ask you this last time we spoke, but I did put it in my Instagram post. But if people want to get in touch with you, connect with you, follow you, what's the best way to do that?
01:10:01
Speaker
Yeah, so for Kilowatt Coaching, that's the only front for that is my Instagram page. So get in touch with Kilowatt Coaching. ah Yeah, I've got some spaces at the moment for one-to-one coaching um because i sometimes I don't because try to keep it within a range that is... But yeah like but I don't want to have too many because i can't take on too many because so it's too much work.
01:10:28
Speaker
and um But then you're equally at any point, clients clients are free to drop out. So um I've got space some space at the moment. And I also do consultations, which are quite a popular service and and and more um within people's budgets. So but that's an option which which you can address any needs you want, nutritional or training or both or just, it's it's yeah, whatever whatever you want out of it.
01:10:55
Speaker
um then as if anyone's interested in you know following me as a cyclist and as person um then i've got my instagram strava um some youtube videos which are mostly rubbish but yeah i'm gonna We'll link to all of those. And of course, there's also the the the sneaky option. if you If you want to get a ah a free consultation session with Marinus, you just book him on a podcast and then you can ask him all sorts of questions that you're curious about. yeah He'll tell you all the good stuff without charging you, but that's ah that i maybe i shouldn't be sharing my yeah my trade secrets on on there.
01:11:33
Speaker
Listeners, thank you as always for tuning in. If you like the show, um give us a rating and a review. Our website is now live, well, has been for a couple months now. That's eitech.io, and we're at Endurance Innovation on Instagram.
01:11:47
Speaker
And, of course, on the website, you'll find all the all the relevant details on the cool bottle, which is going to make a bit of a splash at the end of April. But if you want to learn more about it you want to pick one up for yourself, head over to eitech.io.
01:12:01
Speaker
Thanks very much, and we'll talk to you soon.