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Sam Barley on Cycling Aero and Bike Fit
695 Plays12 days ago
Sam Barley, a bike fitter, aero tester for Body Rocket and triathlon coach is on the show to discuss aerodynamic testing and how it shapes bike fit. He shares how he moved from traditional bike fitting to aero-guided fit. Sam reveals surprising findings from testing top athletes, showing that what looks fast isn't always best and that real-world aero gains can differ from expectations. The conversation also covers how athletes balance getting more aero with staying comfortable and powerful for races on varied terrain.
Key Takeaways
- Aero Testing is Key: Sam uses tools like Body Rocket for precise aerodynamic measurement.
- Surprising Results: Testing shows that sometimes higher positions are faster, and typical aero gear might offer smaller gains than expected.
- Comfort vs. Speed: It's vital to find an aero position that a rider can maintain comfortably and powerfully throughout a race.
- Race-Specific Setup: Elite athletes adjust their aero positions based on specific race courses and demands, not just one "fastest" setup.
- Practical Advice: For better aerodynamics, focus on your bike's adjustability and integrate hydration/nutrition into your aero setup during training.
Give Sam a follow on Instagram: fittedbysam
The study on the aero impact of shuffling by Callum Barnes.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you want to talk about that visor we saw in Remco's head? Helmet? Helmet head? but In the Dauphiné time trial yesterday? Yeah, I'm confused. I don't know why he just doesn't go without a visor. Yeah, right? It doesn't make sense.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hi everyone, I'm Andrew. And I'm Michael. And you're listening to the Endurance Innovation Podcast.
Guest Introduction: Sam Barley
00:00:41
Speaker
everyone, and welcome back to Endurance Innovation. now Joining me today is Sam Barley, who has the kind of name that I actually don't have to ask him how to pronounce for once.
00:00:51
Speaker
Sam's a bike fitter. He's a triathlon coach and a contractor for Zwift UK. He's also keen triathlete, but coming at it from a more cycling background.
00:01:02
Speaker
And he shares with me the love of things techie and nerdy, which is probably a big reason as to why he's on the show today. Sam and I have been corresponding quite a bit in the probably the last six or eight months, talking about the the cooling model that we have, of course, talking about aero testing that he's been doing and we will talk about today.
Exploring Bike Fitting and Aerodynamics
00:01:25
Speaker
Um, and, um, as a bike fitter, especially, I really wanted to explore that intersection of, um, bike fit and aerodynamics. And that's why I'm so happy to have Sam on the show.
00:01:37
Speaker
Sam, welcome. Thanks for having me. I've been a long time listener, so I've I know that I've got some big boots to fill. And um as we were saying earlier, i really enjoyed that last episode with Ronan. Nice.
00:01:48
Speaker
So, yeah, I hope I can do it justice. Awesome. Well, I'm sure you will. And listeners, we were chatting a little bit about it, ah about that show with with Ronan. That was... um Probably the last one, depending on when I publish, the last one that you will have heard.
00:02:03
Speaker
And I was telling Sam how i I really felt like that was for the, ah that was a bit of a a deep dive. That was for the nerds, that maybe some of the industry folks more than maybe some of the casual listeners to the show.
00:02:15
Speaker
I have no problem with calling myself a nerd. Perfect. That's fine. Fine by me. Yeah, I think you're you'll you'll you'll fit right in. um so So Sam, yeah, the reason that, as I said in the in the brief intro, the reason I was so keen to have you on the show was because I feel like with your experience as a bike fitter, that's you know your job, something you do professionally, and then your recent work with ah with Body Rocket on their aerial...
00:02:40
Speaker
ah measurement system. And of course, we had Body Rocket on a few episodes back. um I really want to talk about the intersection of those two things because they're, of course, intimately related. We've had, and don't know, probably a dozen people on the show tell us now that the body, the human body on the on the bicycle is 70 80% of drag.
00:03:01
Speaker
so of course body position, bike fit is going to influence aerodynamics. And then what we learn from aerodynamics is going to influence how we do bike fits if we're motivated by performance.
00:03:13
Speaker
ah So that's ah that's kind of the the big picture of the conversation I want to have with you today.
Sam's Journey to Bike Fitting
00:03:18
Speaker
um So let's start with ah what came first, the the bike fitting or the aero testing for you?
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, definitely the bike fitting, actually. um So bit of background, I was a mountain biker. So as far from aero testing and stuff like that, as you can imagine. But um when I came to the area that I'm living in now, there was just a bit more road cycling, more triathletes. I thought, I'll get a road bike.
00:03:44
Speaker
And I'd read a lot about how important it is to get a bike fit. So I was... Yeah, goody two shoes, got my bike, went straight to the bike fitter. And um I've got to say, and like amazing results.
00:03:58
Speaker
I just kind of came away from it thinking, isn't it amazing that you can move things a few millimeters here and there and it feels like you're riding a different bike in like the best way as well. um So you come away thinking, yeah, that kind of changed changed my life. And um kind of didn't really do too much um with that other than...
00:04:19
Speaker
enjoyed my nice newly fitting bike and listened to a few more podcasts about it read a few books about it that kind of thing just nerded out as i normally do and um it was i actually owe it to my wife who who just said look you're not enjoying your job right now um why why don't you do a bike fitting course you love that and um so i was like Why not? In fact, no, that's that's not quite right. I think I put up a bit more resistance than that, but eventually um I was like, yeah, let's give it a go And um yeah, just came away from it buzzing to to kind of help people. um
00:04:59
Speaker
And at first it wasn't necessarily making people like super aero or anything like that. It was it was just um keen to help people. um get people comfortable ah on a bike or um avoid like injuries, anything
The Importance of Individualized Bike Fitting
00:05:14
Speaker
like that. Just just apply what I'd learnt actually just fascinated by how different everybody is that comes to see me. Like obviously no two humans are the same. so For sure.
00:05:25
Speaker
In those early stages of your career as a bike fitter, what were your priorities? So you mentioned you mentioned comfort, you mentioned injury prevention. um If you were to kind of, you know, we'll put ah put a little bit of a hierarchy to it, ah where were you where were you starting? Where were you trying to optimize? so I treat every everybody differently. So some people come, um, cause they want to be faster, some more comfortable, whatever.
00:05:50
Speaker
And I, i ah kind of take great pride in that. I don't have a philosophy, um, which sounds a little bit weird, but it's not like I'm, I'm gonna do the same thing with every customer. I'm not, I'm not going to put them in the same position. um I, throughout the whole process, I try to get people to um to really understand what we're doing so they can kind of buy into to to what's happening to them, why they're feeling a certain way.
00:06:18
Speaker
um So they go away feeling like they've they've kind of committed to it as well. But you must have a certain sort of process and you know if this is sort of a patented a Sam Barley patent pending process, I fully respect that, ah with a you know where you're you're looking for for certain things from folks, you're looking for specific feedback or specific measurements that you're doing.
00:06:41
Speaker
um I guess, how do you make the the bike fit decisions? or Yeah, let's say before the aero piece, because I want to put set that aside for a minute. How were you making the bike fitting decisions um when you when you were starting out?
00:06:53
Speaker
Where were you paying attention to? I think I get you where you're coming from now. yeah So spent a lot of time just observing. I'm not someone who uses Retool or any like motion capture.
00:07:06
Speaker
um The way I was taught was just to to really look at someone properly and um consider the... um ah kind of compensation patterns that someone might be making because everybody's body is telling a story when they're riding a bike they might be like hunching their shoulders or like pointing their toes or anything like that and if you look carefully um yeah you could anybody could could be trained up to be a bike fitter you just have to you just have to look um and be patient and i'm just trying to put the body uh in in a way
00:07:44
Speaker
that's the the kind of least stressful for that for that rider yeah that makes a lot of sense and so for what it's worth like my thoughts on on retoolers or similar tools motion capture tools is that they're a useful tool but they're not uh a substitute for actually knowing what to look for and knowing what to do when you see a thing that you that that kind of jumps out at you so you're uh know you're speaking my language there um Okay, so that's so you started out with ah with me with making, if I'm understanding you correctly, with making people feel comfortable on the bike.
00:08:17
Speaker
um And then um obviously you ended up being very interested and paying attention to aerodynamics. so tell us that story. How did that start?
Sam's Curiosity About Aerodynamics
00:08:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think um at some point you kind of you read about um these kind of these ways of of fitting someone to ah to a tri bike and you you need an open hip angle and you you know you need the saddle slammed all the way forward. And i ah think there's a lot of resistance from someone like me to to stuff that's so arbitrary like that, especially when there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence behind it. And so I'm kind of asking myself why.
00:08:58
Speaker
Um, all the time. And i think that took me to stuff like testing, um, stuff out using the Chung method, um, which I'm sure you're familiar with and, um, yeah, yeah just find some quiet roads and getting very frustrated when cars would go past and it would ruin my run. Yeah, i um I remember goofing around with the Chung Method when I first started paying attention to aerodynamics too. And I remember having like a great run. Like it was, everything was going really well. There were no cars and i was like able to hold position. i was like, I was just super excited about getting really good data.
00:09:34
Speaker
And then I got passed by a like um ah group of roadies. and and they just like, you know, they they pulled in right in front of me and and just absorbed me into their group for, you know, I don't know, a bunch of seconds. And I was so mad at them. I was, ah I'm sure I said some unkind things, which of course they were completely confused by, I'm sure, because, you know, who is this guy and what is he doing?
00:09:54
Speaker
But yeah, I know the pain. Yeah. Yeah. So I tried that a little bit and um I tried AeroTune, you're familiar with, I'm sure.
00:10:05
Speaker
um In fact, I think yeahjo Yeah Bjorn I think three or four times and then and and Sebastian twice too so we yeah they between the two of them they're definitely in the lead in terms of guest appearances.
00:10:16
Speaker
I thought so. Yeah. So I've used that platform as well. Um, and I've actually been in contact with some of them via email because some of the stuff I was testing was just so minute, the differences that, um, I just wanted to, again, know little bit more and dig into the weeds.
Involvement with Body Rocket
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah. And they're very good about just being super generous with their, their knowledge and their time. And yeah, they're, they're like some of my favorite folks in the industry. Yeah. um And so I think from there, i I must have been on like a mailing list for for Body Rocket or something like that. And they were looking for, ah yeah, just people who wanted to to check them out at the Geraint Thomas Velodrome in Newport, Wales, um which is like two or three hours drive for me. So I was like... turn interrupt So when you were um playing around with Chung Method and Aero2, this was just on yourself or were you working with other people at that time?
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah, I was setting out on myself, hoping to get um some kind of method that was um that I could use on other people. So when I yeah fitted someone, i could go, okay, I think this is the best position for you. We've got a couple of options, but rather than kind of guess, let's actually test it. And then I was thinking, you know, ah could do a bike fit and the next day we could do some error testing and actually test out the various options um but it never it i never really was able to um to really dial that in with any of the method methods that i currently had i just didn't feel like it was safe as much as anything on on open roads um and especially the chung method as you know you're not allowed to break yeah i mean uh when uh when ronan you know we keep talking about his that episode when he was telling us uh the story of uh
00:12:04
Speaker
of how he found the he found the optimal road that had a descent into the the the stretch that he was using to test and then a ramp up to slow himself down so he wouldn't have to touch the brakes at all.
00:12:15
Speaker
I mean, he takes it to the nth degree, but yeah, um for sure having some tools makes a big difference so you can you can touch your brakes. Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:26
Speaker
Yeah. So then Body Rocket invited you to the Velodrome testing? Yeah. And at first I don't think they knew that I was a bike fitter, but when I got there, i kind of, um, uh, yeah, just, they were super welcoming and we got chatting and, um, so yeah, we, we kind of started talking more about the the application for bike fitting.
00:12:46
Speaker
Um, and at that point, their system was only really usable on the Velodrome. Um, whereas now if we fast forward to this present day, um I'm doing out and backs five minutes from my house um and cars are overtaking me and um i'm I'm kind of marking the runs that have cars have overtaken me on.
00:13:11
Speaker
And I send that feedback. And what's actually amazing is that now, ah those cars passing don't even affect the data, um which is incredible. Is it is that automatically like filtered out? or is that ah Now that we're talking about body rocket, I do have some questions. So is it automatically filtered out or do you have to manually do it? It's just due to the nature of how they measure it.
00:13:33
Speaker
um So the airspeed changes, but... Um, that's, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't affect the the calculation. Um, so you can't even, you can't even notice on the, um, on CDA plot.
00:13:48
Speaker
Cool. That's very cool. Yeah. So now you're working with, uh, with Body Rocket. Um, there's definitely a little bit to talk about here. Uh, let's start with, let's talk about some of the folks you've worked with, uh, cause they've, they've got some interesting athletes on their, on their, i don't know if you would call it roster, but the interesting athletes who, who use the system to optimize aerodynamics.
Collaborations with High-Profile Athletes
00:14:08
Speaker
Yeah, so in the UK, they've got ah Michael Hutchinson, who's ah an ex-national champion in in Time Trial, and Alex Dowsett, who likewise got many national titles.
00:14:22
Speaker
haven't actually met Alex, I have met Michael. And... and Alex is working with some very high profile athletes right now in the triathlon world. He's working with Cat, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to, I'd love to meet him. I've, I've seen his bike and, uh, with the body rocket senses, but that's, that's about it.
00:14:38
Speaker
Uh, but then, uh, yeah, obviously there's Christian and k Christian Blumfeld and Gustav Eden, who I met at, uh, the altitude camp in Sierra Nevada in late March.
00:14:50
Speaker
So that was, that was an amazing experience. Yeah. And ah you you were when we were doing a little bit of the intro, you were telling me about some of the, let's say, makeshift work you were doing on on Gustav's helmet.
00:15:07
Speaker
ah tell Tell us a little bit about that, because I think it'd be an interesting story. Yeah.
Innovations and Insights from Aero Testing
00:15:11
Speaker
I mean, to start off with, those guys are just so open-minded. So um you're just if you just suggest something, you'd expect a little bit of kickback from guys who've won that many world titles between them. But um every time you suggest something, they're just like, yeah, let's let's go for it.
00:15:26
Speaker
And... yeah absolutely and um and gustav in particular is extremely playful um and he he just felt like his current visor on on the giant rivet helmet was just too deep okay so it was partly because he was hitting his visor on his hands in the error position but also partly i think he was just fogging up um so he just turned to me and he was like can you can you cut this thing in half And I knew that all I had was a tiny hacksaw and we just, we didn't have the facilities. We just rented an Airbnb.
00:16:03
Speaker
And, uh, and so of course I was like, well, uh, are you, are you sure about this? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got another one. Um, so he, he just wholeheartedly trusted me to, uh, to cut this thing down.
00:16:16
Speaker
and so I, so I did, And it turned out better than expected. Oh, nice. Yeah, no change in CDA for him with the short advisor, which is potentially what Remco is finding now um in in the time trials.
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, we we were, we you know, I may have mentioned this already, but we're recording the day after the Dauphiné time trial where Remco had his, let's say, very interesting ah interestingly shaped visor on his, what is that home we call it? I keep forgetting, the TT5? I think that's it.
00:16:48
Speaker
ah Specialized? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so um so you think that probably similar, you know, let's talk about Remco because ah it's on people's minds, but similar sort of you know, motivation to Gustav just to get his head lower?
00:17:05
Speaker
I would say so. they They've got very different positions, but the commonality is that they their heads very low, both of them. So i would imagine that the visor gets in the way.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, obviously, we you know we we saw the performance that Remco had against the best in the world. So, I mean, clearly didn't hurt it didn't hurt him performance-wise. Yeah, I think the thing that confuses me is why he bothered to still have the um the flappy bits to the side.
00:17:32
Speaker
ah Yeah. Is that like an airflow thing though? Do you think like, is it just, does it condition the airflow around the helmet a little bit? um Should have Andrew on the show. I'm sure they have a very good reason for it. Just maybe smooth, smooth the transition. Yeah. I'm sure they tested, I'm sure they tested him without the visor. Cause that would be the, that would be kind of like the, the null case scenario, right? Like just ride it without the visor. If you, if you need to get your, your head closer to your hands.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, so actually um on on that subject, another thing that Gustav wanted to try, and actually just, I didn't have a whole lot of, um I wasn't actually the one the one making this, but he wanted to try, um you know how the cask mistrial helmet comes with these these flaps under the under the visor? Yeah.
00:18:17
Speaker
yeah Yeah, there's it's it's like a $200 visor, I think, that you can buy as ah as an option. Yes, I remember looking into it. Yeah, and it works for some people. um I tested it, and it was consistently just under a couple of watts faster than the regular visor for me.
00:18:34
Speaker
um Anyway, Gustav was dying to try something like that. so He got some he got some um electrical tape, I think it was, and and made his own version and looked so awful.
00:18:50
Speaker
But it worked. I think it saved it saved a similar amount. It wasn't huge, but it was something. okay Okay. So there is there is a there there, right? that's not It's not just marketing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What they don't tell you is that um when I was using mine and I looked around during a triathlon, the whole thing just flew off my face and I never saw it again. So it catches the wind.
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah. That's an expensive of oopsie. Yeah. Yeah. And in the heat of the moment, you're thinking, ah, do I go around and and collect that off the road or do I just carry on? and I carried just carried on. no.
00:19:24
Speaker
ah That's good story. i um yeah i wouldn't have I wouldn't have thought about it but you're right. yeah If you turn your head a certain way and you're going a certain speed, that's there's some surface area to catch. It's literally got wings. It's little bit of sail.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah. Right. um Awesome. So so you work with ah you work with Gustav, you work with Christian and and some other folks. um what's what's the What's the stuff that you're learning right now?
00:19:48
Speaker
um Before we come back to bike fitting, which I do want to come back to what what What kind of things are really interesting really interesting findings for you other than um electrical tape works as a makeshift Pfizer modification? Well, the big one is that you just expect the unexpected. So um I looked at someone like Christian and I thought, i'm I'm not going to lie, I thought his position can get so much better. Okay. um And I thought he's he's not using... um any bta systems um he's he's quite high on the bike and so i went i went in with all these preconceived ideas and we did so much testing because of course like the man is an engine so you just tell him to do 10 test runs and he will do 10 test runs um and so we tested everything under the sun and um
00:20:41
Speaker
um I'm pretty sure i can I can tell you this, but we we made him higher and he got more aero. um So we thought... let's Like higher higher stack in the front. higher Higher stack on the front. And so we went, well, let's slap another 20 mil in there as well.
00:20:56
Speaker
um And at that point he got slower. So there there was a kind of... a perfect point where he was he was faster and more comfortable and we kind of stayed there yeah and it wasn't yeah it wasn't super low of a position but um potentially what you've got to bear in mind is that his his chest is much deeper than most people's and it's it's kind of like a like a sharp I think that's the morphological feature that people real but people notice on and on him as an actor yeah and it's if anything it's
00:21:28
Speaker
it's more noticeable when you meet him than you, you can kind of gather from social media. It's, it's, um, he's basically got a bottle down his top at all times. Uh, so the BTA stuff that we tried just didn't work. Um, if anything, everything was a penalty.
00:21:47
Speaker
um He would try high bottle, a low bottle, an angle bottle, an aero bottle. And it was just nothing was really working. And so what ended up being the best for him was just to rely on the Cadex's internal hydration and then just having a ah bottle or two on the back, which was a, it was a penalty, but it was, it was negligible. It was like a, a watt or something.
00:22:12
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Because I mean, like at a certain point, if you're if you're compromising hydration you're or slash nutrition, you're in a world of hurt and long term in long-course triathlon. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:23
Speaker
and And then meanwhile, someone like, um, someone like Gustav, we just, we got him lower and lower and he was getting faster and faster and getting more and more excited about it.
00:22:35
Speaker
um yeah. Like take, take the pads off, take the pads off. I just want to just want to get even lower and, um, right on the Velcro. Yeah. It looked really uncomfortable, but, um, yeah so, so yeah, long story short, just, uh,
00:22:51
Speaker
ah's things that look fast aren't necessarily fast and things that look slow aren't necessarily slow. That's really cool. And that gives hope to us all because like I, um I, I, I've just been, well, I can make excuse excuses all day long. I haven't done any arrow testing, any real arrow testing in a couple of years on me.
00:23:07
Speaker
And it's, you know, I know that there's, like I'm not that big of a human being that I know that there's definitely gains based on where my CDA numbers are. um But it's, it gives me hope that there's still stuff that I should be trying and seeing what else I can, you know, what other gains I can find.
00:23:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um ah And the stuff that you read about, like the calf sleeves and the the bottles, the BTA systems, they do work. It's potentially just not from well from what I've learned with Body Rocket anyway is that in real world conditions um it's just not quite so much of a difference as they make out so it's still a gain it's just not huge so you're chasing small improvements here and there It's interesting that that, you know, I would think that things like calf sleeves would maybe have more of a difference because there's there's not a lot you can do with the way that your, know, your shins interact with the air. I mean, you can have a wider fork, I suppose, to to do some of that shroud effect.
00:24:14
Speaker
um But, you know, your your your shins are pretty much in not in maybe clean air, but in close to clean air. And, ah you know, conditioning that leading edge might do something.
00:24:24
Speaker
Any thoughts as to why we don't see the gains or you're not seeing the gains in real world conditions that maybe folks in the wind tunnel are seeing? Yeah. Yeah, so I don't have the expertise of of someone like a proper aerodynamicist, so i'm I'm only guessing here, but my theory is that the BodyRocket equipment is currently equipped to a KDEX bike with a very wide fork.
00:24:46
Speaker
So the... The air is actually being broken by that already. So potentially there's just not much point in trying to trip it twice. It's already been tripped once. It's traveling smoothly over bare leg.
00:24:58
Speaker
and um And I tried ah few different designs. I tried a surpass ah calf sleeve. I tried a no-pins calf sleeve with a couple of trips. yeah And I tried a conventional ah calf sleeve with ribs.
00:25:10
Speaker
And um yeah, I saw maybe... with, with a no pins, I saw six seconds saved over 40 time trial, which is not a great deal. And with the other two, I saw nothing.
00:25:22
Speaker
not So I would love to try it again on a conventional bike, but I think yeah. within error or four Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The K-dx just doing the work for you potentially. Yeah, that's interesting. We we just saw, um I don't know if you watched the Dauphiné today, and I have no idea. like Obviously, this is just armchair, complete armchair, but the forget the winner's name. ah That's embarrassing. But he he was ah Israel Premier Tech riding the new Factor the factor prototype with a massive fork.
00:25:49
Speaker
um So there's definitely, i don't know, but definitely. I'm going to retract that. There's likely something there with that watch. Yeah. I'd agree actually from, from testing the KDEX. I've got a KDEX myself as well.
00:26:05
Speaker
um And yeah, those, those things are fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the subject of KDEX is my favorite point about KDEX is that, I don't know, I haven't looked at their geometry data in a long time, but I've always just wanted to get longer.
00:26:21
Speaker
That's been always been my limitation, but then, um so I'm like, you know, six feet slash 182 centimeters. And and the largest or like what a typical large bike is perfect for me. But if I go XL, I don't have enough standover, right? Like I just, I don't have, my legs aren't long enough to stand over those bikes.
00:26:40
Speaker
And so the fact that the, the K-Dex doesn't have a top tube is like, this is brilliant. Not that I think they're largest, but I don't think they have an XL anyway in their range, but ah the lack of top tube is my favorite feature of the, of the K-Dex. Cause then there's no like, you know, issue with standover.
00:26:56
Speaker
There's a ton of reach extenders on the market um yeah at the moment as well. So you might find that something like that works for you. I have like the fast TTs on my bike, actually, that are, i don't know, probably give me like 100 millimeters. they're They're quite, yeah, quite long.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah, and that that's something that fascinates me at the moment, um which is why I'm kind of testing it out myself. But you've got, if you think about it, you've got the triathlon world where guys are getting, they're trying to just stretch the riders out longer and longer.
00:27:25
Speaker
um so that They put in the new rules, right? So you you now cannot have your hands in front of your the leading edge of your wheel. Yeah, yeah. so So they've gone so long that overall got put in. And meanwhile, in in in road cycling, um sure, you've got the UCI ah rules kind of limiting how long ah people people are on a bike.
00:27:46
Speaker
But actually, I'm seeing that riders are ah even shorter than the rules allow. They're not pushing the rules. They're actually going fairly compact. Yeah.
00:27:57
Speaker
yeah You look at Ganna's position um and who's the other? Tarling. They've got really... they They literally look like they're on too small of a bike at the moment.
00:28:09
Speaker
um yeah So there's two complete different schools of thought at the moment. I find that absolutely fascinating. I've tried it out myself. Annoyingly, again, no difference between long-reach and short-reach.
00:28:21
Speaker
So I just go for slightly shorter because my theory is that if ah If you've got your hands close to your face, you've got a better chance of seeing over your hands and not having to constantly kind of periscope your head up and above your hands. That's a really good point. And that's something that meant that that like I've been super interested in trying because, and it was it was because i was doing a hard workout this morning.
00:28:43
Speaker
going to talk about this Dauphiné time trial like 100 times in this episode, but I was watching the replay because I missed it yesterday. I was doing like a hard kind of VO2 mag session, but trying to do it on the skis.
00:28:54
Speaker
And i have like my, i was i'm giving, I'm going to give you a lot of useless details. I ride you just using my Garmin. I don't use Zwift or anything anymore because I'm too cheap to pay for it. So I just upload the workout to my Garmin riding off my Garmin, but I have my iPad in front of me with the, uh, with the race on it.
00:29:11
Speaker
And i was trying to like watch the race and I had to keep on like popping my head up because my position is quite long and my, I try to keep my head low. And ah can't see over my hands. So just having exactly what you're describing, like periscope my head over over my hands. And maybe that's something that I ah got to test it, of course.
00:29:28
Speaker
ah But i maybe I should try a little bit of a shorter setup so that I don't have to look over my my fists. Yeah, it's something that I'd love to to test as well because you can do that with BodyRocket. I could do a run where I'm just consistently looking over my hands and I could do another run where I'm going super aero and then looking where I'm going super aero and where I'm going um and test that out. And um in the past, actually, I've Callum from the University of Kent has worked with ah with Body Rocket on ah kind of quantifying how much aero drag you create by shuffling on a saddle. Because you've probably seen, and I'm sure all the listeners have have seen a rider shuffle in a time trial. It's so common.
00:30:16
Speaker
yeah and And he was um just thinking... Everybody seems to do this. Is it costing them in terms of aero or not? um Are they making it back up in terms of power, for example, that kind of thing?
00:30:29
Speaker
um So he was able, with the body rocket sensors, to not just measure drag, but know exactly when they shuffled, because you see this little little blip in the um and the data. It's fantastic. Yeah.
00:30:42
Speaker
And was what was it a meaningful difference? um I can't actually remember the the results of his study. um I know that he was surprised I didn't shuffle more. um And we kind of boiled that down to me having quite a rearward position.
00:30:58
Speaker
So with every pedal stroke, I'm almost kind of like pushing forward a little bit. problem So I remember him commenting on that, but I can't remember the actual results of the the study he did into it. I should take that out.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah, take that out. If if you get up a chance, take it out and send it to us and I'll put it like we'll post about it or something. But um yeah, I've been talking about shuffling as as I was watching this Dauphiné. I should start a tally chart of how many times I mentioned it. um like Remco is just incredibly stable.
00:31:25
Speaker
He doesn't move at all on that bike. Whereas like even some of the other, you know, like the Vingago and Pogacar, they're kind of moving around on the bike a little bit. Obviously more towards the end when they're ah right on the limit, but it's it's a noticeable difference in stability. And I don't know if it actually results in any kind of performance, you know, performance benefits. Obviously he's moving less, so maybe there is some performance benefit, but ah definitely you can definitely see the difference.
00:31:55
Speaker
I agree. And I wonder if he just spends, it's as simple as him spending more time on his TT bike than the other guys. Yeah, um could be. I mean, he's he's definitely doing something right. Let's put it between that the visor and the stable position. something Something's working for him.
00:32:10
Speaker
he's He's what we all want to look like, right? 100%. Yeah. yeah um Okay. So I'm going to bring us back to bike fitting. And I want to know how the things that you're finding in in your aero testing, how that is now coloring in the decisions that you're making as a bike fitter, or or is it?
00:32:32
Speaker
Yeah. So... That's a good question. um i ah found that things like um the the kind of narrow hand positions that i' yeah thought I usually put people in for time trialling,
00:32:51
Speaker
it's faster until it's until it's not really. and You can, yeah, it's it's not like it goes less aero, but say you went from like a um comfortably narrow elbow position on a TT bike,
00:33:08
Speaker
um what I found is that then going narrow than that, potentially putting yourself under stress. Um, I'm just guessing here, but I'm wondering whether it makes your shoulders kind of pop out actually.
00:33:21
Speaker
um so with a comfortably narrow position, you're not only are your elbows narrow, but you can kind of shrug your shoulders. yeah If you go past that stage, so you're, you know, For argument's sake, your elbows are touching um and your and your hands are together. I'd say most people can manage hands together.
00:33:38
Speaker
um So when you're when you're talking about, you said hand position, but I want to be i want to be like super clear. Are you talking about elbow width or or actual hand width when when we're talking here? Yeah, both. so I think um if we're talking about hand width, think everybody can achieve a ah close hand position. So your your hands are kind of close together.
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah, because even if you're wide, wide elbow, you can angle in the, you know, you can angle in the extensions or rotate them or something. You can fudge around with them so that you can get your hands together. Yeah, absolutely. but But people struggle a little bit with elbow position. Yeah, for sure. And I guess what I'm trying to say there is that um you you don't need to go all the way until your elbows are touching.
00:34:14
Speaker
you can You can have a little bit of a gap there. um And ah yeah I've just found through testing that sometimes narrow is narrow enough, you don't have to break your shoulder blades over it it's it. It doesn't make a difference after a certain point, in my experience anyway.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I kind of like if you're, you know, again, armchair aerodynamic sizing, that's not a word, things here. Like if you're super narrow, so sure, the you're you're leading, you know, the the the first thing that you're maybe presenting to the to the air by way of your, maybe your upper arms are,
00:34:51
Speaker
narrower than they would be if your elbows were slightly set wider apart. But then the air just hits your torso, right? Like it's it's gonna it's going to encounter it's going to encounter the torso. So maybe a slightly, and again, totally guessing here, but maybe a slightly wider elbow position creates a better fairing for your torso.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yeah, and back to what I was saying earlier, you just, um you can make these guesses as to what might perform well in terms of error and then you might test it and it might not be the case. so yeah, you've got to,
00:35:24
Speaker
I think what i'm what I'm learning with the aero testing is that, and what I can take to the bike fitting is um you you've still got to prioritize the comfort because if you put someone in a comfortable position, they can just interact with the bike so much better. um i often make this point with with people when i'm when I'm fitting them that um if you...
00:35:45
Speaker
if you look at my my kidx setup for example the saddle and the bars are pretty much level it really doesn't look that aggressive and actually and if you if you were to prop yourself up on it and um and you kind of look straight ahead of you uh as if you've basically never got on a tt bike and you've just kind of jumped on then sure it's not it's not error but if you if you really hunker down and you shrug your shoulders um and you get yourself into the business position that i've trained myself to be in it's error and so it's it is about the bike fit but it's also about the human and interaction with the bike fit and training yourself
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah. And like the most obvious thing that I think probably goes without saying, but I'm going to say it, is that if you're not comfortable in aero, especially if you're doing long course, one of one thing is going to happen. You're going to get so tired of it. You're going to pop out of aero and then you're sitting up on the, you know, because I mean...
00:36:41
Speaker
you know Even the pros will do this. right like they've got The aero discipline has improved dramatically over the last five years, but even you know five years ago, you'd you'd see pros sitting up a lot in long-course triathlon and be like, dude, youre that's very bad.
00:36:55
Speaker
yeah you're You're wasting a lot of a lot of energy or you're going a lot slower than you should be. So if you're if it's so uncomfortable that you can't maintain it for the the race duration with while at the same time putting down the power that you need, then then whatever little marginal gains, aero gains you've gotten there and probably are lost.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah, and that was what was so refreshing about um about working with Christian because straight from the outset, he was like – no need When we're not chasing aero gains here, I want to feel more powerful on the bike because the course in Nice dictates that um you know they're going to go hell for leather up that first climb.
00:37:33
Speaker
It's going to be like ah half an hour, 40 minutes, so ah slight downhill, and then a big climb again. um It's not your typical Ironman course. so so what What course was this for? This this is for Ironman Nice.
00:37:45
Speaker
from nice okay yeah yeah this year um so they're they're already thinking ahead they're going the position we use in kona is not going to work here but it's not going to be optimal um so yeah just going back to my point about them being like super open-minded and forward thinking like that they're thinking what can i do to my bike position to allow me to uh hold a not an extreme aero position, but an aero position um for that duration of time going probably close to threshold um up those climbs. Like it's, it's, that's not going to be a manageable kind of Ironman high zone two effort. That's going to be really hard.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah. So if, if they make the bike really aero, um they they might not stay in it for that duration of time. So they, ah yeah, Christian just wanted to to stay there or thereabouts in terms of his current aero performance, but um certainly not get any less aero.
00:38:44
Speaker
but prioritize like muscle recruitment and um yeah comfort, basically. Sure. Which is, I mean, a super valid point. It's interesting to see these guys modify their positions. you you You hear people talking about working for months or years on optimizing this one position, but it's interesting to hear you talk about, obviously, these are folks who are at the very, very pointy end, but changing their position to meet the demands of the race, which...
00:39:11
Speaker
of course, very sensible. But let me ask you this question. So um if you are Gustav in this case, and you are trying to, you know, maximize comfort or power delivery in in race position, how do you evaluate whether or not a change that you've made in the position for some aero gains or for some other reason affects that ability to deliver power?
Gustav Eden's Trust in Instincts
00:39:35
Speaker
do you Do you quantify that in any way or is it mostly subjective?
00:39:38
Speaker
that's a really interesting question because Gustav is, uh, in contrast to Christian, he is a very, um, ah very emotional person and he will, he'll kind of say, I've tried this.
00:39:52
Speaker
It feels powerful. It's hard to argue with that because of his results. And um so I'm not going to be the person to change his mind. for sure um I don't know if he's quantified it.
00:40:03
Speaker
I've heard of Christian ah changing his stack height with a VO2 mask on to see the effect of of oxygen consumption. um but But on the other Gustav...
00:40:17
Speaker
gusav We'll we just test something out. He's very playful and and he'll come come back and he'll go, yeah, that's fantastic. Or no, I feel really weak. and And that feeling for him is good enough and he trusts himself. And I think that's wonderful.
00:40:32
Speaker
I couldn't agree more. And I think that's like... I love that there is that there is no right answer for this, um as much as sometimes we'd want ah like a one neatly tied with a bow answer, that it is it is individual. and And so often, you know feeling is believing that if you if you believe that that's the right way to go, that you're know that that that the color red on your on your bar tape makes you go faster, then there's some good evidence that it actually will make you go faster, that you can deliver more power that way. So that's it's really interesting to kind that to hear the contrast between those two those two champions.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah, they're spoken about in the same sentence, but actually when you get to meet them, um they, yeah they are just so different and that's probably why they work so well together.
00:41:15
Speaker
Yeah. That's awesome. Very, very cool. um So, yes, so you're definitely seeing some things in aero testing that that are busting some of the maybe the pre the preconceived notions.
00:41:27
Speaker
um Let's talk about some ah some some more practical takeaways. I know I always try to shoehorn some of that into the into the conversation. If ah you know you've got some performance orientated triathletes listening to this who you let's say that I'm sure they've gotten a bike fit or two, but maybe they haven't done a ton of aero testing.
00:41:48
Speaker
um What would be your advice to them for for finding those improvements and where would you start? Focus on adjustability um in your bike rather than ah something that's maybe looks a bit sexier, but isn't adjustable because your body's going to account for yeah, 80, 90% of drag.
00:42:10
Speaker
So getting yourself in the most error position is way more important than something that might conceal a hydraulic hose here and there. sure So get something that's easy, easy to work on.
00:42:21
Speaker
um Consider, when you're making your your bike choice, for example, um i I would consider things like hydration integration because, or like ah if if you want to carry spares or something like that, consider that. How are you going to carry it?
00:42:40
Speaker
How are you going to... um if you If you don't go the integrated hydration route, then how are you going to carry everything that you need for an Ironman? Because you might need to carry like two liters of of but water.
00:42:54
Speaker
so how are you going to do that? you're going to have it between your arms behind the saddle. Yeah, it's going to make a big difference. um you don't don't just What I'm saying is don't make that decision last minute before your race. like yeah Consider that in training.
00:43:06
Speaker
ah Use it in training so that you know how to take the bottles out, that kind of stuff. It makes it easier on race day if you've thought it through. Yeah, one hundred percent. I think that that's, that's very valid, especially in really long course stuff where it is very difficult to carry all your hydration. I know some of the, some of the guys are carrying it now, like for the four bottle setup, you know, for one liter bottles, we'll get you through a four hour Ironman, I guess, if you're, if you're that fast, you know, for a, for a little bit of hours.
00:43:32
Speaker
um But for most of us mortals, you're going to use some aid stations. So considering how you're going to replace bottles or refill bottles, that's, that's important too, I guess.
00:43:43
Speaker
Yeah. I guess what I'm getting to is, um, consider the the system as a whole, consider yourself, um, kind of visualize yourself in on race day. what are you going to need? how are you going to fit
Advice on Performance Optimization
00:43:54
Speaker
it?
00:43:54
Speaker
Um, how many carbs are you going to get through an hour? I know that. ah where I kind of know what I want to hit in terms of carbs. So I know then how much weight of gel I need to to carry. And it's actually, it's not a small amount. It's not trivial. Yeah. Probably like a couple of bottles. Yeah.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah. um So I'll fill some, ah some just regular bottles with gel and I've got to find a way to to keep that on myself. So um yeah, all these things you've, you've got to think about. Just some back in the napkin math, let's say you're doing five-hour Ironman, which is, you know, very much in the wheelhouse of probably most of those, well, many of the listeners here.
00:44:35
Speaker
And you're going to do, let's say, 90 grams of carbs an hour, right? That's just 90 grams of carbs. And in that 90 grams of carbs, depending on how you're taking them on, you're probably, you know, the the the weight of your of your package might be 120 grams or so ah for that 90 grams, including the liquid and whatever else is in there.
00:44:54
Speaker
ah So that's 120 times five, that's 600 grams, right? So that's that's better than half a kilo, um almost a pound and a half of stuff that you have to carry on your person, unless you're picking it up from aid stations. But with mortal hydration in the mix now, it's harder than it used to be.
00:45:14
Speaker
It is. Yeah, a slight tangent, but I i make my own gel. um Nice. so Let's swap recipes because I also do. go Nice, nice. We should. We should do that. yeah ah So that makes it a little bit easier to dial in, to kind of know in advance like what the percentage of the the carbs will be once it's once you've added some water and that kind of stuff. Yeah.
00:45:36
Speaker
For sure. What do you do if you don't mind sharing? It's a combination of maltodextrin and table sugar ah based on the fact that table sugar is 50-50 fructose glucose. so as long as you mix it in the right quantities, um yeah, it's a two to one ratio.
00:45:51
Speaker
So, but ah obviously a lot, lot cheaper. And how do you how do you get it to gel? Or do you care? ah Yeah, definitely care. um Otherwise, the table sugar would be a bit granny like granular.
00:46:02
Speaker
I will just pop um pop the table sugar in ah in a mixer, put the amount of boiling water that I want on top, set the mixer off. That'll kind of mix it in nicely and and melt everything down.
00:46:17
Speaker
um i then add the melted extra in because I find that makes it a little bit easier. pop some ah My favorite is actually... lemon zest and lemon juice, a bit of that in and bottle it.
00:46:29
Speaker
Nice. So no, no sodium? No, I, cause that's my, this is more of like a gel and um I would take my electrolytes through my regular bottle basically. Got it.
00:46:41
Speaker
Yeah. Keep your carbs separate from your electrolytes. Interesting. um Yeah, that's really cool. What I, so you're making, you're basically making like a simple syrup plus simple syrup plus maltodextrin.
00:46:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's basically eating cake icing. Yeah, basically. um That's really interesting. because i ah So shout out to Tara Posnikoff, who gave me this this idea. but um she was a friend and a guest, a past guest.
00:47:06
Speaker
But she got a hold of some um sodium alginate, which is what's in Morton. And so she and I have been like goofing around with the different quantities of ah of it. And so I actually like make a gel gel with ah with the alginate and a little bit of sodium citrate and um usually just table sugar.
00:47:26
Speaker
So some that I haven't tried adding, because I haven't gone really high carb, so I've been kind of like still keeping it. Like I know it's one-to-one and i like I just keep it to about 60 grams an hour because I haven't been doing any like super long intense work anyway.
00:47:41
Speaker
um So it's pretty safe at 60 grams an hour and it's... it It works quite well. It's actually like super palatable. And I use um i use the dehydrated lemon or dehydrated lime too for for flavoring.
00:47:54
Speaker
And it is like pennies on the pennies on the gel versus, i don't know, whatever, a couple bucks, three bucks. Yeah. Again, when you're doing the maths and you're thinking, i'm I'm taking this in training this many days a week, this many you know weeks in a month.
00:48:07
Speaker
And then you look at the year and you think like yeah you could have saved yourself like five grand. Easily. Yeah. It's like a... It's like an Ironman race. um Yeah, and also the other thing that I also like about making my own is that there's so much less garbage because those all those foil packets, they they add up and there's you know can't be recycled. They're basically landfilled. So if you you know you make it yourself, you pour it in a bottle that you're then going to wash and reuse, it's ah it's a lot more kind of sustainable.
00:48:36
Speaker
Okay, yeah, so I agree. Yeah, cool. Sam, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for your time. um If people want to get in touch, they want to do a bike fit because I actually didn't ask where you're based. You're in the UK, but where?
00:48:48
Speaker
I'm west of London, so in a place called Twyford. um It's near a place called called Reading. Yeah. Cool. Well, so listeners, if you want to get hold of Sam for some for a bike fit or for some aero testing or for for triathlon coaching, um what's the best way to get in touch?
00:49:06
Speaker
ah Probably any of my socials. um I'm mostly on Instagram fitted by Sam. Cool. Yeah. i mean, that's how you and I mostly correspond too.
00:49:17
Speaker
i'll I'll put that in the, in the show notes. um Yeah, man. Thanks again. This was a, this was a lot of fun. Absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. And listeners, as always, um check out The Cool Bottle on eitech.io. And if you like the show, give us a rating a review on whatever platform you listen on.
00:49:36
Speaker
Thanks very much.