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Bicarb Supplementation with Maurten
861 Plays1 month ago
Lauren Thomas and Ian Marling from Maurten join us to present findings - old and new - for efficacy of bicarb supplementation in the endurance sport context. We explore the unique advantages of Maurten's bicarb system and how their hydrogel and mini-capsule formulation solves the classic problem with bicarb supplementation: GI distress.
Key Points:
- The role of bicarbonate in buffering blood pH and its impact on athletic performance.
- Insights into the potential benefits of bicarb for various endurance sports, from cycling to ultra-marathons.
- Practical strategies for using bicarb in training and racing, including timing and dosage.
- The science behind Maurten's bicarb system and its unique delivery method.
- Discussion of the cost justification for Maurten system.
Learn more about Maurten and their bicarb product here.
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Transcript
Challenges in Research on Athletes
00:00:00
Speaker
So it's really difficult to do good quality research on athletes in these kinds of contexts in general. And then we're introducing the potential of, oh yeah, and we might have drastic dropout rates because instead of getting them to run faster, as Lauren said, we're just getting them to run to the toilet faster.
Introduction to the Podcast and Guests
00:00:27
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I'm Andrew. And I'm Michael. and you're listening to the Endurance Innovation Podcast.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone and welcome back to Endurance Innovation. Joining me today are Lauren Thomas and Ian Marling from Martin. and This is an interview I've been trying to set up for a little bit of time because one of their products, specifically their bicarb product, has been on my radar and it's something that Well, I thought about many, many years ago, and then I didn't think about it for a long time. And then most recently, they've they've been making
Guest Introductions: Lauren Thomas and Ian Marling
00:01:13
Speaker
some waves. So I was really keen to get them on the show to to talk about it. But before we do that, I'm going to invite Lauren, maybe Lauren first and Ian second to introduce themselves and give a little bit of a history of how um they got to be where they are today. Lauren?
00:01:28
Speaker
Sure, thanks for having me. So I'm i'm Lauren, I am the performance dietitian in the US for Morton. So a board certified sports dietitian by trade. And I've been with Morton for about a year now. ah Previously, I was I've worked in college athletics, I worked in special operations as a performance dietitian. So just a lot of different types of athletes and different types of sports to apply nutrition to. um So yeah,
00:01:56
Speaker
That's my my role with Morton is just educating athletes and fellow dieticians and coaches. Perfect. You're the person the perfect person to have on the show then. Ian, you I think you chose as well. Thank you very much. It's important always to know what we don't know. And I know that Lauren is an actual expert and I just like to pretend I'm one. Just play one on TV, right? Yeah. Exactly. yeah I'm not even maybe at that level yet. fair enough but To introduce myself, my name's Ian Marling. I'm ah the sales lead for the United States East Coast for Morton. um I've been in that role for about 14 months. and ah Prior to that, I've worn a lot of different hats in the endurance industry from running store manager to coach of ah runners, triathletes, et cetera.
00:02:43
Speaker
And um just really love what we do in terms of being able to really help ah athletes achieve their best and push themselves to their own limits. Well, thank you both again for for coming on the show.
Morton's Innovative Bicarb Product
00:02:55
Speaker
And it's I think it's going to be a good one. It's been a little while since we've done anything on nutrition. We try to keep ah you know feed our folks a balanced diet of of content. So it's ah it's it's well time. And ah the other thing that we we we talk a on the show about is you know ah unique and interesting solutions to sometimes old problems. And I think that's that Martin or Morton, excuse me, I got to use the right pronunciation. Morton has some real interesting products on the market. Some have been around for a while. Some like the bark up, bark by carb is reasonably new. So let's talk about just the value proposition of Morton to begin with. Like what sets you folks apart from i dont know the 50 other brands that are on the market?
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah, I love this question and really embedded in the question is I think what makes Morton unique in the marketplace. So we have an elegant solution to a long time problem for endurance athletes, which is getting adequate carbohydrate in on the go. So, instead of being limited by kind of an athlete's tolerance of carbohydrates and the the tolerability of of fueling during exercise, they are now able to fuel in accordance to best practices. So, when we talk to athletes, a lot of times we hear that they take a gel an hour because that's all they can handle. yeah And I'm to push that, uh, you know, to use myself as an example in my second marathon, when I started using Morton in 2019, uh, I was able to push to four gels an hour for a hundred grams of carbohydrates an hour. And the way we do that is with that elegant solution of a hydrogel delivery of the carbohydrates.
00:04:39
Speaker
which is just going to create basically an envelope that delivers the carbohydrate like a stealth bomber under the radar of the body's awareness so that it gets through the stomach, delivering the carbohydrates more quickly without the stomach needing to break it down in any way. um and Then you get the energy more quickly without GI distress risk and with a steadier release of the energy because the hydrogel will dissolve in a steady rate thereby releasing the energy to the body at a steady rate and and giving you just like a good feeling afterwards.
00:05:15
Speaker
Yeah. Sounds good. I mean, having yeah having tried it myself in in some races, and I know that while in my coaching practice in my and also in my personal experience, there's a wide range of of tolerances for ah for carbohydrate intake. And you know we oh consistently now, I think, see figures in the 120 gram per hour range for for folks who are who are adapted. um and Certainly, anything that makes that more more both palatable and more you know and causing fewer issues is is a welcome as a welcome thing, I'm sure. um But let's so let's dive specifically directly into the bicarb product that you have. And I'm going to ask a very similar question. right So um before we talk about you know efficacy of bicarb, but the sort of the Morton advantage here,
00:06:03
Speaker
um Obviously, and I think all of the listeners know this, but I'm going to mention it anyway, Bicarb is also very famously known as ah as baking soda. right You can go walk to your grocery store and pick up a can or a box of Arm and Hammer or whatever your local a Brand is gonna be called and it's gonna cost you pennies for the for the gram And you can you can spoon it into your own mouth ah to whatever quantities you prefer um So there's there's that obvious option, and then there's also you know interically coated capsules and pills that are available So what um again? What's the the the Morton advantage versus those two products?
00:06:44
Speaker
Yeah, so Morton really changed a lot of the more typical bicarbonate ingestion um approaches, right? So we changed the form of it, which really I think ends up being critical to how it's tolerated. So instead of you know a spoonful of baking soda or a you know big horse capsule, we're getting really, really tiny mini tablets of the sodium bicarbonate.
00:07:09
Speaker
So you're going to see almost thousands of mini tablets in one serving. And that's really because those the size of those is going to be able to pass through the body, through the pyloric sphincter all the way down, past the stomach, without getting caught, right? So you're going to lose a lot less sodium bicarbonate in the stomach, therefore not allowing the bicarb to hit the stomach acidity like could happen in other forms. So the sizing is one and then the other flip side is that it's going to be coded in that hydrogel technology that Ian was talking about earlier. So the hydrogel acting as almost a sponge that's carrying those sodium bicarbonate capsules and
00:07:52
Speaker
citing them to give them a smoother transport. So essentially big picture of this, you know, we know sodium bicarbonate works. It's in the research for however many years, but there's been the performance paradox of, Hey, you can use it, but you're probably running into the bathroom and you can only, you know, a ah lot of people can really only tolerate so much. So if we want to narrow down the dosing that's going to have the best efficacy, then you're going to have to be able to tolerate it. And we want you to be actually be able to do your sport for the length of time that you want to be doing your sport instead of running to the bathroom. So I think it's it's really trying to solve that problem of GI tolerance by the size of the mini tablets and by the carbohydrate co-ingestion with the the hydrogel.
00:08:37
Speaker
Oh, OK. So a couple of follow-ups. So I understand that if you're just taking you know loose powder baking soda, then and there's that interaction in the stomach, which causes, if I've never tried it myself. I maybe maybe and maybe got to put myself through the through the paces. but um So that would I can see how that would cause the GI distress. And then if I understand correctly, the advantage over just a a capsule or ah or an enterically coated pill is that is the size of the of the delivery vehicle in the Morton?
00:09:06
Speaker
Yep, yeah, the size, making it just, ah again, a lot more easier to digest, um as well as you're not going to lose as much because those capsules are going to break open a lot more easily. If they're large, the smaller ones are not going to break open, therefore not again having that CO2 explosion that we, you know, could think of um in science class.
Bicarb's Performance Edge in Endurance Sports
00:09:27
Speaker
um So I would say, I would say that's probably the big, a big difference there. I'll also note that the bicarb system from more in is like an extended release. So we're going to actually, and we'll get into this when we talk about efficacy in an application, but you're going to have higher bicarbonate levels in your blood for hours versus with historically enterically coded capsules. You're getting a short period of time where that window is really important to get ready.
00:09:57
Speaker
Yes, I totally see where you're going with this. And that is that will be, listeners, very topical for our future future questions. OK, so um I think I understand the the kind of the value proposition here. so let's So let's dive right into use cases. So the sort of the my wisdom on bicarb is that because it you know buffers blood pH, it is only relevant to events where that blood pH is elevated. right So through wherever you have efforts that are well north of, you know call it functional threshold power, you know critical power, second threshold, whatever. but When you're no longer in this metabolic steady state, your your blood pH drops, you the bicarb helps buffer that drop in pH and you get some performance gains. And that all makes sense. so
00:10:47
Speaker
I never really considered it seriously, because I'm not a middle-distance runner. I don't do sprints. i'm ah you know The shortest thing I'll compete in and compete, I use very loosely. ah the The shortest thing I'll i'll work hard to to do my best at is ah is a 5K, so like you know around the 20-minute mark. um And yeah, there's a little bit of accumulation, I'm sure, by the end. But it's not it's not going to be a critical moment, I don't think. So how has the thinking changed from me reading these papers from the 70s, 80s, and 90s to today?
00:11:17
Speaker
yeah I'll jump in and then pass it over to Ian, but I just wanted to say that like the the literature is kind of messy because and athletes have had such bad GI side effects when we've been testing bicarbonate that often we couldn't cap, we as in like the research community, for lack of better words, like had a hard time capturing longer distance application of bicarb. So when you start to dig in, it's like, well, 90% dropped out by 20 minutes. so i think You know, I think there's that's part of it. um But I would also say that yes, like the thing that I like to remind athletes of is that endurance is rarely steady state, right? Often there's surgeons, there's hills, there's, you know, group dynamics in a cycling race, or you name it. so
00:12:06
Speaker
oftentimes there isn't just like this, you're going at 60% VO2 max or something like that, you're going to be going up and down, right? It's very fluid. um So that historical idea of, of maybe 60 seconds to 15 minutes of bicarb application, I think we're starting to push into that more endurance space. um Ian, do you have kind of other examples that you might want to share?
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would obviously echo the fact that performance um in endurance sports is almost never a steady state exercise. where Even if you're holding the exact same power output, there's just enough changes in your bodies. Fuel availability that effectively push your threshold down so you get closer and closer to ah being well above threshold or just above threshold at the end of longer events, ah but you know more Objectively speaking, there was a great study done this summer that was published this summer that showed about, as I recall, 1.4% benefit for a 40 kilometer time trial. um so Cyclists on ah orgs, on trainers, ah were you know pushing themselves for that 40 kilometer distance. and The finishing times were between, off the top of my head, 58 to 72 minutes.
00:13:21
Speaker
and So if you're talking about that hours long effort and you can get 1.4% benefit by having an interesting pudding with baking soda tablets in it, then why wouldn't you take that? I mean, cyclists are obsessed with performance. They'll pay $300 for a tire that has slightly less rolling resistance, right? Um, so this is a way to eat more out of the the training and the racing.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, makes sense. 1.4%. Was that just finishing time? What was what were they measuring? Yeah, time to time to completion. Time to completion. Yeah, that's that's that's definitely not trivial. And yeah, we're we're totally in the in the world of marginal gains, folks. like i I totally take that point.
00:14:03
Speaker
So OK, so let's ah let's say that, yes, there is you know whenever you do cross that threshold barrier, however we define it, there is a benefit to um ah to to consuming bicarb. but Because I'm hearing folks using it in marathons. And then there was, ah marathon is interesting, but there was also the case of, we saw Mike Woods, was it the Giro, where he was there was a photo of him. like um It looked like he was eating soup um on the bike in the middle in the middle of the peloton. and then course World champion. Was it the world? Okay. Yes. Yeah. Of course, it turned out that it was it was it was your product. And the way that that was explained sort of echoes what you folks are saying is that obviously in
Efficacy and Research on Bicarb
00:14:43
Speaker
a road race, there are going to be surges that are well north of of that steady state, a metabolic steady state, so that it makes perfect sense.
00:14:51
Speaker
So then in that um in these longer events, let's say we're going 20 minutes to, I don't know, you tell me what the upper limit of duration is. What is the what is the strategy for intake? Let's maybe take a couple of cases where it's like a 20 minute 5K race and then you know stretch it out as far as you want to. And how how would one potentially take your product in ah in a longer event?
00:15:15
Speaker
Um, lots to talk about there. Um, I, I will just add that like we have, you know, Kelly and journey using this in ultra endurance exercises. so So we can really stretch it out. Like you exactly. Like I just want to reiterate that we're still learning, right? Uh, we're still doing research. We're still getting feedback from athletes. And, and I think there's so much that we still have to test and learn to really figure out where those boundaries lie. Um,
00:15:43
Speaker
And I think there's also just one more piece that I wanted to add of of when we start to talk about the endurance space, yes, the buffering capacity is such a big part of bicarbonate effectiveness, but we're also seeing it improve the efficiency of the athlete. So we don't necessarily see their VO2 changing or their are exertion changing or their heart rate changing.
00:16:06
Speaker
but they're able to have a higher output of power for that same, you know, like physiological demand. So I think there's like, ah again, a lot to learn and one, you know, kind of interesting, I think, approach is that it's likely supporting the environment for glycolysis. So essentially, you're getting a better rate of energy production because during really acidic environments, glycolysis is going to slow down.
00:16:37
Speaker
So if we're getting some acidity in there, we're not producing the same amount of energy, and then we're not having the same muscle contraction. and right So it's like the downstream effects from there. So just some some interesting things to think about and kind of like widening our scope of how bicarbonate might be. What are the mechanisms? I don't know if we've really clarified quite yet besides the buffering that could be playing a role here.
00:17:00
Speaker
do you Can you speak to which sports who you found a gross efficiency improvement like cycling, running, swimming? What what do we what are we testing? Cycling and running, certainly. um i don't know I know there is a swimming ah like study going on right now. I don't know if we've what data we've gotten from it yet. um But certainly in the cycling and running space, um I would assume you know applicability in the rowing space or those other high intensity, like we're going to start to see that. But yeah, I think more to come.
00:17:30
Speaker
Oh, that's super cool. I just want to jump in into to to kind of speak about the why the data on marathon or you know anything longer than like half marathon performance is still emergent. If you're trying to do a study and in sports science, so many of the studies are like 12 participants, 20 participants. College day emails.
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Enrolled in a sports science ah intro course. yeahp and you So you're trying to get this study done, and you're giving them something where you might risk a third of the sample dropping out due to GI distress risk. And we know marathon can be GI distress inducing on its own, running for a long times, let alone the difficulty of actually doing a marathon simulation trial in in a study.
00:18:19
Speaker
and yeah good luck to researchers recruiting participants for that. But so it's really difficult to do good quality research on athletes in these kinds of contexts in general. And then we're introducing the potential of, oh, yeah, and we might have drastic dropout rates because instead of getting them to run faster, as Lauren said, we're just getting them to run to the toilet faster. and not Not the desired outcome.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah, and so there is you know this obviously publication need in academia, and so they're going to look for trials with positive results um or like clear results. yeah And hey, I spent an entire year trying to to run this study and no one no one finished, is not a good ah entry on one CV. so Things will so continue to emerge partly because ah the bicarb system as developed by Morton has been so game changing in terms of allowing research to move forward without the same risks of participant dropout from GI distress. But some of it will always be difficult to fully directly measure and we'll have to kind of look to inferences
00:19:30
Speaker
because it's hard to get people to run at like 85 to 90% of their threshold for two and a half hours in a lab setting. um There's just inherent difficulties in in capturing that kind of good data in science.
00:19:44
Speaker
Point well taken, for sure. There's definitely a bias towards towards kind of a positive sort of outcome, at least that I've seen. I think it's reasonably well-documented. You sort of precluded my next question here, and I like it. that I was going to ask you about evidence for efficacy. That was on the on the run sheet, and there it is. So it's ah it sounds like maybe it's it's not there, but it's in the works, if I understand correctly.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's been, there's been a 40k time trial study that came out this summer that Ian spoke about. 4k time trial repeated efforts that similarly showed that benefit in performance, but with repeated efforts, which again is showing that buffering capacity. So I think you know the the research specific to Morton is coming, but given it's still a relatively you know new product on the market, I think we'll see more coming in the future. um I think it's also important to like
00:20:40
Speaker
this This product took, I think, three years within R and&D testing it on pro-tour cycling teams to get the data to make the best product possible. So we have a lot of insight. It's just in terms of like those you know outside research ah studies being done that are still coming.
00:21:00
Speaker
Lauren's burying the lead here too, because I think that the most impactful study that we have using our bicarb system, which came out just a little over a year ago, showed that it i mean the the takeaway message was virtually eliminated GI distress risk associated with bicarb supplementation. so We can kind of have that plus the existing bicarb literature, and then look ahead to you know what will come um in new frontiers for endurance sports.
00:21:31
Speaker
it Yeah, that's a really interesting way of looking at it, is that you're opening up the door to to allow entry for this supplement that before just wasn't viable because of the side effects,
Optimal Bicarb Timing and Usage
00:21:40
Speaker
it sounds like. Very cool. um So I just want to get it back to, since we're on we're on racing, um before we move on to training, is just some of the ah the way that you would time this because we spoke about timing and you know you mentioned a little bit how um how with with the Morton system, the ah blood bicarb level stay elevated for longer than with others. So um you know let's start with the easy, the short stuff, like how would you how would you time the intake of this product and then go into the more maybe experimental longer duration stuff.
00:22:14
Speaker
Absolutely. So big picture, um there's going to be three components to the bicarb system. For those who maybe aren't familiar, you have a mixing bowl, you have a sachet that has 40 grams of carbohydrate ah powder type in there, and then you have the bag of mini tablets. So you're going to want to fill up that water, put in the ah you know carbohydrate mix, shake that up,
00:22:42
Speaker
and then let that sit, add the mini tablets. Now you're going to want to ingest this about 90 minutes to two hours prior to the start of your race. So there there definitely ends up being a little bit of planning involved and logistic planning ahead of time because the timing is pretty important here, right? We want that blood bicarbonate to rise to its peak before you start your race. So that way you know you're getting the best you know kind of efficacy from it.
00:23:12
Speaker
um I also always want to remind athletes that we don't want to have the bicarbonate on an empty stomach. So back up even more, and you will have had hopefully a meal or a snack, you know, an hour, let's say before you take the bicarb. So now you're looking at maybe three hours prior to the race start, you're eating, you're letting that digest a little, you're taking the bicarbonate, and then maybe you're sipping on water or what have you until the start of your race. So it It's a little bit of a planner scheduling um you know maze there sometimes, but um highly recommend that and athletes dial that in prior to and are kind of played with it on the go. Because again, we're trying to mitigate any chance of of GI side effects, and this is kind of how we see that happening. Got it. And so then if you you know you take it, let's say, 90 to 120 minutes before the start of the race, based on your your research, how long are those blood levels elevated?
00:24:11
Speaker
it's There is a lot of individual variability, but we're seeing six plus hours. I've seen eight, I've seen 12, I've seen five. you know So I think generally speaking saying you know five to six hours is is a likely response. um If you are taking the dosing that we're recommending, which is probably you know ideally around 0.3 grams per kilo.
00:24:33
Speaker
Got it. And do you find that it's, um I don't know what the right word is, cleared, used up, based on intensity? Like if you're working harder and and your blood is becoming you know more acidic, are you you know using up more of the bicarb faster than if you were more steady state?
00:24:48
Speaker
No, I mean, what we what we start to see in the bicarbonate blood testing is that it's going to fall when it's utilized, right? But then it's going to write pop back up within the next 15, 20, 30 minutes. So your levels are are raising or going to rebound as high as they were in the first peak.
00:25:08
Speaker
So where's that, was I mean, like I think I saw that saw that in either and maybe one of the interviews that you gave me and I heard this, I heard this or read this somewhere before. And I was thinking to myself like, where's that reserve coming from? if you're Unless you're continuing to ingest it, which it doesn't sound like you are. it's It's still the extended release happening, right? So you're getting this kind of steady output of the buffering capacity rather than just all at once.
00:25:36
Speaker
Got it. Okay. And that's, that's the nature of the, that you know, these micro capsules. Technology. Yeah. Okay. And remember I described that the hydrogel dissolving in the intestines releases the energy of carbohydrates to the body at that steadier rate. And we were doing that plus extended release tablets of sodium bicarbonate. So it's kind of like a two pronged approach to to getting that continued source for the athlete.
00:26:02
Speaker
Okay. So if I understand correctly, there's, let's say you're, you know, you're, you're doing a six that or eight out to eight hour events on the long, definitely on the longer side, but certainly not, not insanely long. If you're like a long course triathlete, let's say, which is, you know, a lot of the folks who listen to this show, for example, um is there any value in, in delaying that intake?
00:26:23
Speaker
later on or like, you know, I'm thinking again of Mike Woods, like spooning this stuff into his mouth well while he's on the bike. Is there other than making for an interesting Instagram post, is there any value and in in like yeah consuming it during the event itself?
00:26:38
Speaker
I think there's there's curiosity around that question. um I don't want to say yes because I don't want athletes doing that without us having really measured anything anything or any GI side effects that could happen because right now it's the protocol that's been tested and more secure is prior. um I do think that we will start to see studies happening with kind of like re-up some kind of dosing, very small dosing during an ultra event.
00:27:08
Speaker
eight hours later, I think there is potential for that. And that's something that I do think that we're looking down that road. Um, but yeah, I think, I think a lot of people saw the, the Mike Woods Instagram were like, should I just start taking it during my Ironman? I'm like, Oh, I can't promise that's going to be successful. And then you could, you could see like the bad press, like somebody crashes their bike because they're like, they're eating their, their Morton. And yeah, like that that might be a bad luck.
00:27:37
Speaker
but Well, at least in case of triathlon, you have the option of doing it like at T one or T two.
Custom Strategies for Elite Athletes
00:27:43
Speaker
Um, I think like we have to put athletes like Mike woods and and Tom Evans is another athlete at Western states who took it midway through the race, kind of in a special category as.
00:27:56
Speaker
not like us in terms of the knowledge of their physiology, the knowledge of their response to ah trying things like that is going to be so specific, so precise, and so well-honed and researched that you know this wasn't something he was doing just kind of like incidentally. He's probably trialed it out on hard efforts multiple times. And no, not only did this work for him, it handled well.
00:28:23
Speaker
and it you know It's just a different case for an elite athlete because they're they're so different in their physiology, but also in their opportunity to explore what they're able to to do in in race cases. It's not going to be something that us mere mortals have the opportunity to do in real race simulations in the same way, to to really trial it out in in the way we would need to ahead of time.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really important point. I think that, and that applies to our specific conversation, but, you know, a handful of other things too, but yeah, point well taken in. Thanks. Okay. So, um, I think I'm good on racing unless there's something that I missed. And then actually, you know what, there's, there's one other thing that, uh, and I think again, this was trying to remember what conversation I was listening to. I think it was you, you, Ian, on, on another podcast. Uh, and you were talking about downhill running where there was, uh, does this sound familiar? We're in like in downhill running, like, so if you're, especially if you're doing ultras, right? There's, you know, famously, uh, a lot of elevation change and having done a couple of myself, I know like you get totally shredded on those downhills. It's not the upset hurt.
00:29:30
Speaker
It's the downs and then the ah the potential you know utility of of having the system because you might have, and again, I'm paraphrasing, I hope I'm getting it right. You might have like localized or like you know certain muscles that are really going into pretty severe use on those on those downhill sections where something like the the Morton Bicarb product could be very useful. That sounds exactly like something I've said for sure. Yes.
00:29:56
Speaker
I didn't make it up. I just try remember where I heard it. I've definitely spoken about that. um and Perhaps Lauren can speak with more authority about this. um but Basically, this was based on a conversation I had with one of our heads of R and&D to kind of speculate as to why he thought that bicarb system would have been beneficial for an athlete like Tom Evans in an ultra-trail marathon. and He specifically suggested that while the overall ah metabolic impact of running downhill is really low, the localized muscle contractions are extremely high intensity because it is you know you're running fast, you're landing with a lot of force, and it's an eccentric muscle contraction which can be the most damaging and and most high impact on the body.
00:30:45
Speaker
and so that even though like your overall body lactate levels wouldn't necessarily suggest a need for a buffering agent like bicarbonate, that um it might still be beneficial in these really unique ah cases of fast running down steep downhills. Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm sure anyone who's listening to us who's who's been there and all in ah in a long, long running race, those downhills, it's just not a lot of fun.
00:31:13
Speaker
There's one coming up in Boston in April, I think. Yeah, here there is one. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's pretty downhill from Hopkinson to Boston. It's so it's still on the ah still on the bucket list, but one day. um Okay, so let's turn our attention to training because I yeah i think we we did a fair job of covering racing. I'm very curious about training and um the the big the big question I have is when would you, well, the first question I have, let's start there, when would you recommend that athletes use the product in training?
00:31:49
Speaker
I'm usually recommending athletes take a look at their training calendar and pinpoint the higher intensity quality sessions that they have and recommend that they start to play around with the bicarb during during those. So maybe that's the workouts, maybe that's, um you know,
00:32:07
Speaker
a threshold day, double threshold days, I don't know, whatever the athlete might be doing, that's going to be going to require a lot of recovery most likely. um Because what the bicarbonate I think can be useful for especially in training is, is hitting the pieces or the efforts that you're trying to hit without feeling like you're going to the well, right? So mit mitigating that a little bit, being able to accomplish what you set out to do, but maybe for a little less, um you know, digging in deep into your physiology. and um So the the goal, and I think, you know, I'm sure we'll get to this, but like my my hesitation sometimes when I'm recommending this athlete says,
00:32:52
Speaker
don't don't go, you know, you're feeling good. Don't go crazy on this workout. This is not the time the bicarb might have you feeling like your legs feel really good or you're hitting pieces that maybe you weren't thinking you were going to be hitting, but but that's not necessarily intent of training, right? The intent of training is to hit that space that you're supposed to hit for that quality session. So um I think that's where people can get a little tripped up of like, oh, I i went these, you know, higher wattage or higher pieces than I wanted to, because I felt so good, but now I'm in trouble the next day.
00:33:26
Speaker
Yeah, fair enough. Cause you're going to pay that paper eventually. I actually have an athlete who I coach who did the exact same thing you just described. And we had, we had some race pace. Uh, she was training for a 5k, some race pace, 5k intervals. And, uh, and she just blew them away. I'm like, what what, what happened here? yeah i felt too good I took, I took the stuff and I felt amazing. And yeah, I think points well taken there.
00:33:46
Speaker
I had this exact conversation with my coach last week because we did a new workout a couple of weeks ago and I but i carved before it and so I just went by heart rate and obviously trashed my legs because I was not so disciplined as Lauren ah has suggested we need to be when we when we use this. We get to explore sometimes, and and sometimes it's about you know going into that special place. For sure, 100%. Time and place to do that, absolutely. so If I understand correctly, it there's a there's a real from what you folks have experienced and have ah worked with athletes who have experienced, ah there's a real ah positive effect on RPE that it drives perceived exertion down for the same let's say mechanical output.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, often it does. um I won't say blink it always. um I think, you know, we'll have athletes who like know it felt just as hard. But for that, I was still able to put out maybe a faster pace or a higher wattage. So, um you know, I think I think the RP is one side of things that has potential, but maybe it's the lower oxygen
Adjusting Hydration with Bicarb Usage
00:34:52
Speaker
costs. And again, the greater efficiency that you're going to get from turning those reps with, you know, bicarb as increasing the buffering capacity there.
00:35:02
Speaker
isn um Okay, follow-up question. is there Is there like an upper limit to how often you want to use the system? other than the I mean, you we should say it it's it is fairly expensive. other than if your If your wallet can can take the hit, can you can you do it as much as you want to or what would you recommend?
00:35:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think you know you'll see on the box that it does recommend, I believe, two to three doses a week. And that was more of a recommendation for the general health side of things because of the sodium load. um Because we're like, hey, you know the daily you know sodium intake Ideally, you know is for non-athletes at least, it's 2,000 milligrams of sodium a day. One of these bicarbs is 3,500 or 4,000. We want to make sure that athletes are just being aware of the sodium intake if they do have some clinical health issues or whatever might be going on. um That aside, I would say, you know
00:36:01
Speaker
Most likely if athletes are following a training plan, they're not necessarily doing quality, intense sessions more than two times a week, maybe three times. I don't know, but like that's that would more than that. I'd i'd start to wonder if there's other things we can be doing besides bike.
00:36:18
Speaker
no No, point well taken. yeah so but Three times a week is ah is ah is reasonable based on the the health outcomes. and so I was going to ask this question later, but since we were talking about sodium, um this was actually this question was submitted by a friend ah a friend of mine who is ah ah who's a coach who's also a coach and a um a sport nutritionist about ah global sodium intake. So let's say you're doing this on on race day and it's a long race where you will be supplementing with sodium just for electrolyte. Let's say you know what your levels are from some testing or just kind of guessing at it. So I'll use myself as an example. So I've actually done some some sweat testing and I'm around a thousand milligrams an hour, ah kind of in the like the middle of the bell curve there. um And I'm taking bicarb and let's say I do the math and I figure out what the what the sodium in the bicarb is. Am I then
00:37:10
Speaker
Am I then changing my ah my sodium supplementation strategy throughout the race? ah Short answer, yes. um This is a this is ah quite a topic. But big picture, yes, you are still getting, again, probably three to four, maybe even five, depending on your dosing. That was in milligrams of sodium. So the last thing we're going to want to be doing for your physiology is adding more salt in there.
00:37:39
Speaker
i So, I would think you're just being really, really thirsty if you're continuing to take in more salt throughout when you've already had such a crazy high dose. um It's not necessarily going to give you from from my perspective benefit to push more on top of what you've already taken in.
00:37:57
Speaker
Okay. And then what about, and I'm getting a little bit off topic here, but you know i've got to I've got a dietician here, so I'm going to ask, what about the ah the the the idea that ah sodium in your water helps water absorption, right? So obviously when we're drinking, we're trying to stave off dehydration and and improve all that kind of stuff. So if I'm not if i'm not putting as much sodium into my into my hydration, am I still absorbing the fluids?
00:38:23
Speaker
You are still absorbing the fluids. um Yes, i think I think there is a lot of very interesting research that shows that um sodium is not as essential in terms of hydration unless you are taking in, you're matching your your sweat loss, right? Let's say you sweat.
00:38:42
Speaker
two liters an hour and you're taking in two plus liters an hour, you're drinking more than you're losing, then like we need to figure out an approach there to make sure that, you know again, some sodium might be absorbing the water in. But generally speaking, water alone will do a great job at at hydrating you.
00:39:01
Speaker
Oh, interesting. okay that's It's always good to talk to different people because different people will tell us different things and in in these conversations. Of course. It's always good to have a balanced diet of these ah of this kind of stuff. So big picture, if I'm taking if i'm taking Morton, um I'm probably covered for sodium and sodium supplementation in my fluids is no longer required.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Again, the bicarb is is quite high in in that sodium. I would say the the athlete feedback, if there is any quote unquote downside, it's I'm just thirsty from all the ah sodium, right? From all the salt. So I would say let's not replenish with more salt. Let's get some fluid in you to start to find that ah balance that we're looking for. Okay.
00:39:45
Speaker
Sounds good. Okay, back on to training. um And this is something that I remember talking about on the show years ago with with one of the coaches we had on. And that is the um that um the idea or that you know the evidence that certain ah ah certain Let's say supplements that reduce inflammation, things like I'm thinking like vitamin C, may have a blunting effect on training adaptations, right? So you're you're the whole point of training is you're trying to create a stimulus that that then triggers your body to respond in such a way that it is next time out after recovery, you're better adapted to the stimulus, right? The stress response sort of stuff.
00:40:27
Speaker
So, is there a risk that by blunting this, you know let's say, the the acidic environment created by high-intensity training, but when you're taking more during training, that there is ah that you're blunting a powerful or potent you know training stimulus? No. I mean, I think the thing to remember is that we have bicarbonate in our body already that is doing what the product is doing, right? We're just adding more to it. So your body is already doing this process of pulling the hydrogen ions out of the muscle, into the blood, or an intramuscular rate with beta alany and same idea. Like we have a lot of but buffering systems that are happening already.
00:41:07
Speaker
so by increasing that efflux, we're not necessarily getting any downside because it's already, it's just enhancing what's already happening. So I think the big picture to remember is just that we, if anything, are able to tolerate more training. So then we're getting a better training adaptation, and then we're going to probably have enhanced performance down the line, right? So I would look at it more from if it makes the training more
00:41:38
Speaker
um you know you can stick i dont know stick to the training a little smoother or more direct and and deliberately, then we're gonna have the the output that you're gonna be looking for. Ian, do you have anything to add to that?
00:41:52
Speaker
yeah I think that's that's well said and especially if we're kind of following that model of use, of using it to kind of turn the volume down on the recovery costs because we're not accumulating the same kind of ah you know hydrogen ions and metabolic byproducts that are just going to cause achy sore muscles the next day.
00:42:17
Speaker
you can get the quality session you want in, potentially even accumulating more volume of work at that intensity, um you know thinking of intensity here specifically as a ah ah target pace, and then um you know feel better the next day. and Anecdotally, I was seating some bicarb system to a collegiate athlete a couple of years ago. um and He came to back to me and reported that he thought that the bicarb system worked for multiple days because he just felt so much better the subsequent day that he wasn't just like kind of like dragging his feet and shuffling in the workout as much. um
00:42:59
Speaker
so that That's one way that it can obviously enhance performance. and The literature suggests no no evidence that there's any blunting effects whatsoever. and Then to be anecdotal one more time, you know there are a lot of athletes at the Olympics using the bicarb system. I mean, per Alex Hutchinson at Outside Magazine, 80 percent of the athletes on the track running 800 meters to 10K were using it.
00:43:25
Speaker
There is no way that they would take it in training and racing if they weren't 100% convinced that they were feeling fresh um and seeing their training progress in the way that ah they would expect it to. ah They would give up on it very quickly because they would they would know and they would have to.
00:43:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah definitely point taken on racing. I think racing, you know there's I totally agree. there' is There's good good evidence for efficacy there. My question was more around training. But yeah, point well taken. Those guys have all the you know all that sports science behind them to to make those calls for them and help them make the right decisions.
00:44:01
Speaker
And just with with rare exception, will they ever take it only in racing? and Because they're going to want to really be very used to it and and getting the most out of it. And so we can speak to the fact that you know many, if not most, of the elite athletes that Morton works with are using it in the majority of their training sessions.
00:44:19
Speaker
Interesting. oh It's really good to know. and like you Folks, you're speaking my language when you're talking about you know the reduced cost of recovery. and that you know you you Lauren, you you said it a little bit earlier that it doesn't feel like you're going to the well in that workout. and I find that you know from if I'm putting my coaching head on, that is definitely a limiter for you know for everybody, but especially sort of like the recreational athletes like myself and most of the folks that I coach, because like you know i got I got two kids, I got a full-time job, I'm coaching people, I record this podcast, I try to train, and then I did this i did a session on Saturday where I was like i'm almost crying. i guess It was on the on the trainer behind me. and
00:45:01
Speaker
It's just been a long week and I'm like, oh man, I'm tired. And there was ah but some VO2 intervals at low cadence, so like really muscularly demanding. And I was like, oh man, this sucks. And I was thinking like, i would this is when I really want to try the bike car because i um I think that would be that would reduce the, let's say the discomfort or the suck of that particular session.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yeah, and i and there's there's indication that that the bicarb works on the pain receptors as well. So pain perception might be a factor in all of this you know bicarbonate and effectiveness. So yeah, I think it might have been useful on Saturday. Well, it's definitely on my list of things to try. um But um I've got one last ah one last training question for you folks. And you mentioned it already, Lauren, but you were talking about other buffering agents like beta alanine. And so one of the questions I had is about stacking. I had a person who knows a lot more about this than I do ask me that question. And he's like, hey, you should ask them about whether or not they they recommend stacking it with something like beta alanine.
00:46:01
Speaker
I mean, I think as with anything, it depends on the sport and the, you know, training session and or race that they're doing and the demands of that. Right. So like, you know, disclaimer there, but um historically in the research, we do see a synergistic approach between by beta alanine and bicarbonate. right, because they're working on, they have different actions. um They can't really cancel themselves out.
Cost and Quality of Morton's Bicarb
00:46:25
Speaker
It's just they're going to have a faster clearance of the hydrogen ion. so Beta alanine is is inside the muscle um and bicarbonate is going to be bringing it out to the blood. so You're you're kind of attacking it from two different ways so they can work. and you know from From what we see at least
00:46:43
Speaker
historically is that it can be you know a compounded effect there. So I certainly have plenty of athletes that will do both. Excellent. Thank you very much. um Folks, Lauren, Ian, I think we ran through all the questions I had and i think I hope that our listeners will get a lot out of it. I know I did. So um before i before I wrap it up, is there anything that you you folks want to want to add or want to share with us?
00:47:08
Speaker
The only thing I'll add, and then I'll pass it to Ian, um is that as as a dietitian, I am always reminding athletes to fuel first and not jump to the the bicarb or the betal need or the other caffeine or the hot thing that might be happening. Yes, they are like incredible performance enhancers, but at the end of the day, if you're not fueling properly,
00:47:34
Speaker
and getting in enough carbohydrates pre-during post, then like we're we don't have a foundation to build off of. So I always like to add that, just my dietitian side coming out of of saying, hey, let's remind her big picture here. Get your fuel in first, and then we can we can add the fur bone.
00:47:52
Speaker
for sure. I love that so much. I think that it's so easy, and I'm super guilty of it myself, of getting caught up with the shiny stuff, right? And then to your point, if you don't do the foundational stuff, the 1% isn't going to save you. Exactly. Thank you. Ian?
00:48:10
Speaker
I just want to suggest another use case in in training, which is that in the peaking phase before like an A race or maybe even like a key B race, and that that would be your opportunity to actually push yourself in the training because you know that the the load is much lower and yeah the recovery cost is not as ah much of an issue, um but you do want to maybe get um an extra 5% out of the session and and that's your opportunity to do that.
00:48:40
Speaker
um Well, again, folks, thank you so much for for taking the time. And I do have one last question. It's sort of the elephant in the room in this one, and that is cost. Because your product is, I'll be perfectly honest, when I first saw the price, I had to like double double check that I wasn't misreading that somewhere and it wasn't misquoted. um So ah what's the, I mean, obviously, you you know Morton is ah is running a for-profit business and we all understand that, but how do you justify that price tag?
00:49:08
Speaker
Great question. Really appreciate it. ah We have to remember that this is a product that first and foremost was developed to help athletes at the elite level.
00:49:21
Speaker
thrive. you know This was a product that can help everyone achieve their best, but you know our foremost concern is that Olympians who are lining up and their career is on the line need to be able to rely on it. That means that our R and&D was a process of oh more than three years to get this absolutely perfect. 99.9% efficacy is not good enough. It has to be perfect.
00:49:50
Speaker
Furthermore, we have very expensive ingredients to source the highest quality ingredients in order to ensure that the hydrogel forms the way it needs to and deliver the bicarb to the body in the way that, again, virtually eliminates GI distress risk while giving you all of the buffering ah and you know potential perception of effort reduction and all the downstream other benefits that we're yet to discover, sure we need to make sure that those ingredients are sourced correctly and taken care of correctly, and those are expensive ingredients.
00:50:23
Speaker
Finally, our quality control and quality assurance are second to none. so you know We are informed for sport certified ah to be informed for sport, which means you know athletes can trust that our products are totally free of contaminants or any other agents that might cause them to have a positive test incidentally.
00:50:45
Speaker
They only require that we test one batch of all of our products per year. We think, again, that's not good enough. 100% is our minimum standard um for for our quality assurance. So we batch test every single lot that we produce of all of our products.
00:51:05
Speaker
so that we know and our athletes can know that the product that they're taking is the highest possible quality. It works the way we say it does. There's no risk of, you know, incidental positive tests, but also just like side effects or problems because we had a bad lot or a bad batch.
00:51:24
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense, especially if you're, you know, if you're raison d'etre is to support those people at the very top, the ones whose careers are, to your point, riding on this. The last thing you'd want is for them to have ah an incidental positive because of a contaminant. That would be, yeah, I would kind of blow up the whole mission statement there. and I think we know when we think of, I can't remember whose credo this is for you know thinking about supplements um in in the sports performance world, but you know the the basics of it, I'll paraphrase this really badly, is that a supplement may not contain what it says it contains. It may contain things it doesn't say it contains and it might not work.
00:52:03
Speaker
um And so we're trying to make sure that we're answering all three of those issues by like really robustly proving its efficacy, making sure it only has in it what we say it has in it, and that it actually has in it what we say it has in it. So the downstream effects are that you know it's not a placebo, that any athlete at any level who's looking for that little bit of edge to push themselves harder in racing or accumulate more training so that they can push themselves harder in racing you know, which works synergistically that they can trust the product will work as advertised. Yeah. And I think too, like if you're, if you, you know, depending on how you're going to use this, how you're going to use this product, if you think about, and we talked a little bit about this, like how much money that we, that even us recreational athletes will spend on, on, on our sport, like especially triathlon famous for not being an inexpensive endeavor.
00:52:57
Speaker
um And ah how much, you know, those little extra little percentages end up costing in dollars that this becomes less of a, less of a sticker shock sort of product. It's just I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that um sport nutrition historically hasn't, it's been fairly expensive relative to like, you know, your tape bag of table sugar.
00:53:18
Speaker
um but But historically, there hasn't been an acceptance of spending this much money on and like a ready consumable. You can argue that tires and things are consumables too, but something that you're just going to eat.
00:53:32
Speaker
100% that, and and perhaps if if if people take only one message away from this, it's Lauren's message of fuel first, because if there's the understanding of like, oh wow, if I get this 60 to 90 plus grams per hour in, I really perform better, I race better, I train better, I feel better.
00:53:51
Speaker
they'll understand the value in it and that will shift the paradigm to understanding that this isn't just this like accessory, like sports nutrition is not this accessory thing, it is essential to the entire endeavor.
00:54:03
Speaker
100 percent. And I think with that, I'm going to do a take two on my on my outro because the first time I tried, I was like, oh, wait a minute, I got to ask about cost because it's like felt a little bit uncomfortable asking it, but it's an important question. So now I'm going to try it again and say, Lauren, Ian, thank you so much for spending the time sharing the knowledge. I think this is like right up the alley of of what we want to talk about. So thank you both. And I hope you have a great day. Thanks so much for having us.
00:54:29
Speaker
Thanks, Michael. This was great. And listeners, as always, if you like what you heard, rate us on your preferred ah podcast platform or write a review. That's even better. And we'll talk to you soon.