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Marinus Petersen on VO2max & Bicarb
1.2k Plays22 days ago
Our guest this week is Marinus Peterson of Kilowatt Coaching. Marinus is an accomplished cyclist and coach with a wealth of knowledge on endurance training. In this episode, we explore the importance his approach to developing VO2max. Oh, and bicarb Jell-O. Highlights include:
- The Importance of VO2max: VO2max underpins the ceiling of how high you can get your LT1 and FTP/critical power, making it a crucial focus for any training cycle.
- Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max: how anaerobic capacity training can improve the effectiveness of VO2max work.
- Double Days for VO2max: Double days, featuring high-cadence VO2max intervals, can be a potent tool for maximizing central adaptations and achieving significant fitness improvements - in the right context.
- High Cadence Training: Training at a higher cadence (20 RPM above natural cadence) when doing VO2max work can lead to greater oxygen consumption and allow for more intervals with less fatigue.
- Supplementing with Sodium Bicarbonate: Marius's supermarket recipe for a DIY bicarb supplement that doesn't cause gastric distress.
Follow Marinus at his Instagram page.
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Transcript
Introduction and Apologies
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, listeners. The episode you're about to hear with Marinus Peterson is, in my opinion, really great. Tons of really interesting content. ah Stuff I've never heard before. Stuff that's making me want to experiment. ah But I do apologize for the audio quality in the episode. Some rookie mistakes on my end. So I hope you stick with it because, as I said, I do believe that the content is worth it.
00:00:31
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I'm Andrew. And I'm Michael. And you're listening to the Endurance Innovation Podcast.
Guest Introduction: Marinus Peterson
00:00:50
Speaker
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Endurance Innovation. Joining me today is Marinus Peterson of Kilowatt Cycling. Marinus is ah an accomplished cyclist, cycling coach, and we have a wealth of things to talk about. But of course, before we do that, I'm going to turn the mic over to Marinus and say, first of all, thank you very much for joining and also ask him to give us a bit of a history of how he got to where he is today.
00:01:18
Speaker
Hi, so yeah, I'm, I'm Marinus
Marinus' Background and Coaching
00:01:20
Speaker
Peterson and I'm, um, yeah, a cyclist myself and, uh, I'm the owner and the only coach at the moment of, uh, my coaching business, Kilowatt coaching.
00:01:31
Speaker
um So I coach ah primarily cyclists but I've also worked with some triathletes as well um and i yeah i just I generally have a wider interest in endurance sport and I look to the training at different endurance sports athletes to kind of in inform what I do um yeah with with my own cycling and and coaching.
00:01:55
Speaker
um so yeah it' So cycling myself, i'm I'm racing for a French team within the within the UK, formerly I was Welsh road race champion, one other national road races which i've yeah i've not got a sprint at all so uh when i win at least it feels like a big thing because i'm always solo on my own with yeah long-range solo attacks um so yeah and then as and my coaching business like i said i coach mostly cyclists and various levels um yeah really quite varied and
00:02:36
Speaker
um for people doing different disciplines, most mostly like gravel, road racing, criteriums, time trials, some and quite a few people who just don't race at all um and just just find it really satisfying the process of seeing their progression in their physiology. I want to rip the legs off of their friends at the yeah
Coaching Philosophy and VO2max Development
00:03:00
Speaker
the the science sprint.
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah, I got get a lot of people like actually, well, you know enough people like you very motivated just by being the strongest person on their group pride. I know a lot of those people too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. yeah um So, yeah, quite, quite, quite a variety in the the level of of cyclists I've worked with and in the the types of of racing that they do.
00:03:27
Speaker
And listeners, but while Maritz and I were chit-chatting before we started recording, you know we had we have a pretty good, pretty varied set ah few topics for you today. But um one thing that that we we realized as we were having this conversation is that and there's There's a lot of ground to cover here if we're talking about Marinus' approach to to coaching and his his viewpoint on on you know all of the inputs and all of the considerations that go into a well-rounded program. So today
Understanding VO2max and High Cadence Benefits
00:04:00
Speaker
is going to be, let's say, just a small portion of ah of that but of that philosophy, maybe peppered in with with some ah some sidebars as they are appropriate, because there is ah there is something that specific that we want to focus on.
00:04:11
Speaker
um But yeah maybe we'll marinness we might have you back for for some follow-up conversations so that we can give ah give our listeners a more fully developed idea of what what you're all about. How does that sound? That that would be excellent, yeah. yeah that's sounds Awesome.
00:04:29
Speaker
Okay, so the first ah the first topic we want to tackle is VO2max development. And this is, I think, very very timely for a lot of us in the northern hemisphere before, again, before we started recording. Marilyn has commented on the fact that I'm wearing three layers in my basement because it is very cold in in Toronto. We're having a really cold January, and my 100-year-old house with very poor insulation is just not doing the trick. I feel better about putting the blanket over.
00:04:56
Speaker
There we go, Emeritus. Yeah, we listeners, yeah obviously audio medium, but Emeritus in sympathy maybe just put on a blanket around his shoulders. So so it' being early season, a lot of a lot of folks I know are you know working on base work and and tricking out their physiology and specific in preparation for some more specific demands later on in the season. And I know in in my coaching practice and even in my own
VO2max Intervals and Anaerobic Capacity
00:05:20
Speaker
cycling practice, I'm doing a lot of VO2 max work. So that's going to be the topic that we start off at.
00:05:25
Speaker
And that is, ah you know, VO2Max development. um And I know that Marinus sent me some really interesting ideas on how he approaches VO2Max development with his athletes. So I turn it over to you for some some high-level stuff, and then I'll start firing questions at you once you're once you wrapped up with that.
00:05:45
Speaker
Cool. So um yeah, ah VO2Max does kind of underpin the ceiling of how high you can get your LT1 and your FTP critical power, whatever you want to call it. So it's a very big part of ah like a very very big emphasis for me for for for the training cycle um all all the year really um because you know if if that's yeah if it becomes becomes a point where you know if if that's if that's not high enough you know you can't progress any further and equally even if you're not limited by a v two max bring your your VO2 max higher will probably bring everything else up with it
00:06:31
Speaker
um And what I've found is there's you can kind of make... For example, by yeah like so say so you're working towards a specific event where you need ah you know like more time to exhaustion at your threshold, or you need more of specific type of endurance to repeat ah but efforts above threshold, then that that type of stuff can can train quite quickly. And I don't really see the point in spending lots of time doing that type of work.
00:07:03
Speaker
like earlier on when hopefully just raise your threshold higher and then do that specific work like at that higher threshold closer to the, um closer to your event. However, there are yeah a lot of the types of training you might do to work on that specific endurance in a slightly different way might also improve your VO2 max or be a useful part of that process to increase your VO2 max.
00:07:30
Speaker
um Now, we're going to talk about, like, VO2max intervals, as you is as is what easy think of them, but I think it's important to remember that that's not, like, the only thing that increases your VO2max, and if all you did was, you know, intervals above threshold, you wouldn't get anywhere near to your genetic potential.
00:07:55
Speaker
um So yeah there's a lot. And that's a really good point. And I'm sorry for interrupting around this, but I think that that is really important to emphasize. And i I just want to kind of plus one what you just what you said about those intervals. And at least in my experience, the perception that that is the that is the way to raise VO2 max is that you're going to you know hammer away at at efforts that are well north of that FTP or critical power.
Training Intensity and VO2max Strategies
00:08:20
Speaker
I'm encouraged to hear you say that you've got you've got other ideas in the tank to do that.
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, the actual VO2Max efforts, it's yeah that that it kind of is the the sledgehammer to increase your VO2Max when nothing else is working anymore in a way. you don't You don't really want to bring it out until you absolutely have to. you know Interesting. Okay. So let's let's examine what the other tools in the toolbox are for VO2Max development.
00:08:46
Speaker
Well, so it it this depends very much on your genetics and your training response. so yeah You notice when you are new to training, just like riding a bike at all or you know running so like yeah running cycling, swimming at all, ah everything and anything would increase your V2 max.
00:09:06
Speaker
um It's like you you have to you you have to do less of this type of work and and almost you'll be looking for like a minimum effective dose. sure you're If you're looking for that longer term development then yeah just focus on like steadily and patiently increasing your volume and and yeah and i'd I'd even say as we discussed in our pre-chat about increasing your anaerobic capacity so that you when when you do need to increase your V2 max but more with high density work in the future um that that you'll be better equipped to do that. and there's ah There's also you know a lot of good um
00:09:47
Speaker
evidence showing that like anaerobic capacity type training stuff even like you know four times one minute all out with 10, 20 minute recoveries is is actually um have quite potent increasing VO2 marks. When I've looked at the the training states of these people in in those studies that it seems, yeah, they're not not not as well trained and and that's kind of what I find is that when people are people are less well trained, both in kind of like a chronic sense, as in like, um, you know, it's either earlier in their season or it's like earlier in their, like, athletic development that, um, like anaerobic capacity type training is you know progressively starts to have less of a ah good effect on increasing VH2 max.
00:10:35
Speaker
So, so more, more of a potent effect in the, in the early stages of your season, if I understand correctly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that, that's quite a good model, which I, um, that I do use with some people is actually to kind of earlier on in the season, you think that's when you're freshest, you're going to be able to do anaerobic capacity training the best fair point. Um, and then you're also going to have like.
00:10:59
Speaker
if if you did If you did that, so there's a good argument to leave it. Say your target event is individual pursuit or it's, you know, it's criteriums or something where anaerobic plastic is important to your actual performance, yes then maybe you'll do it earlier in the year, but you'll also definitely want to do it then. Whereas say your target event is 70.3 Ironman triathlon, or it's a gravel race or something.
00:11:25
Speaker
Then much more steady state. Yeah, much more steady state. Then I think it makes a lot of sense to do anaerobic capacity stuff, like, you know, after your sort of off season sort of thing. So when you're really fresh and at that point, I think it's, it it would actually have, um, you know, that that's the point where it's going to have the most effect on your via too much directly.
00:11:50
Speaker
Do you have ah do you have ah an idea of what the the mechanism is for anaerobic capacity work improving VO2max? Because obviously, there's just you know by the nature of the work, there's very there's much less time at intensity in those kind of sessions than in even traditional VO2max intervals. I've not looked into that recently, but there's something around like calcium leak, which you kind of you get when your training status is lower so that um that that causes the cascade of events that cause adaptation um but ah yeah fair enough i'd sprung that question on you without prep so and no uh so my my apologies for that one no that's fine i mean i need and to know why i'm getting people to do things um also true uh yeah i i think also there's
00:12:41
Speaker
it just seems to be like if if you've stressed the the system enough like I think you do that the actual time spent at VO2max like during the effort is you not that big but then the the oxygen consumption rate and remains increased after. um I do also wonder whether um like how much of the VO2max improvements from that type of worker actually from peripheral rather than central adaptations So even if you go and get your VO2max test in the lab, a neat way and even just you by definition what VO2max is, it's not entirely to do with um your central adaptations. For sure. you You might be able to take in lots of oxygen that per minute, um and you might even be able to use that, but like how much,
00:13:38
Speaker
how much of it is actually then being used by your working muscles that are producing the power? And how efficient is that process? So um I think, yeah, it it can, there's there's there's a peripheral component to VO2max. Of course, yeah yeah, it's the more the like the demand side of the equation. Yeah, yeah. And and I think quite possibly the um the anaerobic capacity training could be influencing far more the the peripheral side in terms of how it increases the VHT max.
00:14:12
Speaker
Um, so, so I guess we're moving on to what people probably be more, but, but before, actually, no, before we we leave the anaerobic capacity side, um, when we were talking, uh, before we started recording, marness you you mentioned that there are some lessons that you think that, uh, you know, triathletes specifically, maybe, and specifically what I mean here are folks who are maybe not very used to working at, uh, very high intensities or much above, much above their threshold. Um,
00:14:43
Speaker
what specific utility is there for anaerobic efforts for this cohort in still still staying in the in the domain of developing VO2max? So yeah, for them, I think for people whose anaerobic capacity is really low, that that
Genetics, Individual Differences, and Double Training Days
00:15:00
Speaker
makes it really difficult for them to raise their VO2max. So if you think like Say, so we'll give an example of that that i that I always use of individuals with really high anaerobic capacity and that's like 1500 meter runners. So they they reach VO2 max after not even a full lap of the track and then they sustain it for a full three laps. Whereas you find like in a lot of people when they go and do a VO2 max test,
00:15:35
Speaker
they they get to that VO2 peak and then they can't really keep on going any longer. They just have to, they've reached the exhaustion. yeah So um like what your anaerobic capacity is what allows you to to ride above threshold and and you have to be above threshold to to get close to VO2 max and it's also what allows you to stay there once you are there and it's that time at or around you know close to VO2 max that that it seems to be what drives the stimulus to
00:16:07
Speaker
for those central adaptations to increase the yeah the central part of you the VO2max equation. Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. And it's interesting because I would just, in speaking with a couple of other coaches, totally offline, um there's a little bit more focus on that than there used to be. Because this is a concept of you know increasing glycolytic capacity or anaerobic capacity, whatever you want to call it, in order to work on VO2max is something that you know, I've been hearing about more recently than than let's say five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's, it's really important. not I think it could also be a contributing reason why, why you can see that, like,
00:16:51
Speaker
say in in cycling and in rowing, ah the individuals who are heavier can have a higher absolute VO2 max despite yes not being able to have as high of a relative VO2 max. So the fact that their anaerobic capacity is that big, that allows them to increase their VO2 max a lot more and and that's how they can have such enormous you know absolute VO2 maxes.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, for us flat, flat folks, like flat course folks, like the trap, you know, triathlons are generally a lot flatter than road races. And so it's, you know, I, I've been, I have these conversations with people are like, Oh, my Watts per kilo is this. And we're like, ah, but what's your Watts per CDA, right? So that is what, that's what, that's what I care more about. So that to your point that the, the normalizing VO two max in this, in our conversation to body weight is of course, very useful if we're comparing apples to apples. But if we're talking about outright performance, let's say in a, in a time trial,
00:17:47
Speaker
That's not very hilly. Um, then absolute VO two max becomes a more important parameter. Yeah, absolutely. Well, not absolute relative to CDA. Yes. Yeah. Ah, a hundred percent. Yes. I had this conversation with this, actually with this, uh, a gentleman I train with who is.
00:18:03
Speaker
I think like maybe a hundred kilos, a big guy, tall, like just built, right? And so, and his, he's, he produces some really serious numbers and then he goes, but yeah, but my watts per kilo are really low. I'm like, nah, you know what? ah Who cares? Cause, um, and yes, of course it's per CDA. You're absolutely right. And a, and a bigger human is going to produce, you know, it's going to have more arrow drag, which doesn't take a rocket scientist to, to, to put those two pieces together. But you can still get pretty slippery even as a.
00:18:28
Speaker
as a large human being and that watts per CDA is much easier to manipulate than watts per kilo. I was like a talent ID for young cyclist. I would, I would encourage like introducing like a, a watts per centimeter metric or something to this, you know, to encourage people to just focus on raw power basically. but For sure. Yeah. And then less, less maybe potential toxic, uh, sort of, you know, eating disorderly things that that sometimes crop up into in your own sports.
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, totally. yeah But we're getting a little bit off topic, so I'm just gonna i'm just going to realize back on on the VO2 Max specific site. And specifically, um when you emailed me originally, you you had some some really interesting Things that I hadn't really considered too much in terms of methods for for training VO2 max. You mentioned some double days and you mentioned introducing heat ah into the mix as well. So I'm very curious to hear how you use those those tools to develop VO2 max with the folks you work. Yeah. So um the the double days really is like, yeah ah a lot a lot of my my training is
00:19:41
Speaker
is, you know, sometimes I feel like, you know, this this is like a lot of like just world class basics here that I'm reinforcing. But there there are some some things that I say, especially the ah double days do do really feel like at this point, like a relative hack that people are on to. And
Central vs Peripheral Adaptations in VO2max Training
00:20:00
Speaker
it just seems so potently effective.
00:20:04
Speaker
ah that this So, yeah, we we start with them. Yeah, the yeah the preparation to get the most out of any VO2 max work, but um yeah, just especially with the the double dazes, is if you if you can have your, you know, get as much yeah blood volume is as you can before. um So this is this is achieved like primarily through just doing lot you lots of good aerobic work, lots of
00:20:36
Speaker
some LT1 endurance work and sweet spot, FTP, tempo, whatever's appropriate for the athlete. um And then, a let you and kind of, yeah, even like anaerobic capacity stuff, just you know just but building um building the aerobic foundation. So you you you get you're getting pretty fit before you want to start. Like I said, before you start resorting to this sledgehammer, you don't want to it try and do this stuff straight after your off-season.
00:21:06
Speaker
Um, so this is, this, this is, um, the way I look at it is, is we we try and minimize the stresses on other parts of the, the chain. And we're just literally looking to like cut to the jugular of like a central part of via two max. So achieve this by, by doing the effort efforts at a higher cadence.
00:21:35
Speaker
Okay. So the the ah the idea there is that, um so you think like a continuous, like we just want like eccentric hypertrophy. um So like, if you think like on on one end of the spectrum, you've got like, if you're, if you're your maximum effort, but the force is like really large, so you're doing like a deadlift, I'm thinking.
00:22:00
Speaker
um You get a lot of like ecent you know concentric hypertrophy because there's a lot of pressure against which yeah the blood's having to pump. Whereas like the other extreme in the spectrum is is riding a bike at a really high cadence where there's there's a lot more preload um and that's you're getting a lot of ah you' getting more eccentric hypertrophy with the left ventricle which Is this the thinking that the the Venus returned from like just the the muscle pump from the the high cadence? yeah yeah does the preload Yeah, I think we had Collie Moore on the show talking about this concept before our hiatus. Listeners, maybe that was episode, I don't know, 105. I'll have to dig it up and put it in the show notes. But yeah, it sounds like a if i'm if I'm not misunderstanding, it sounds like a similar similar idea here.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it I mean, for this, this is something that I've like, yeah, like, ah originally an idea from Coley, I've still like, you know, gone on to kind of do things slightly differently from how how he get but the the high cadence thing was something that Coley got me on to thinking with, um with, the yeah, with the VO2 efforts. So okay it's it's a bit of a balance with, um like,
00:23:20
Speaker
having a higher cadence than what you'd perhaps naturally use. But, you know, let's just say you're trying to do it at like 200 RPM, then that becomes a problem that you then can't produce enough power. like If you could even pedal a circle, you know, 200 circles a minute. at yeah and If you can even do it at all. But yeah, it neuro must if the skill is there, let's say. Yeah, exactly. So it's about finding that balance of going something like 20 RPM above what your natural cadence might be. Okay. So that your oxygen consumption will actually be higher. um So I'm yet to figure out but I'm thinking I would like to try and, you know, if I think you can basically equate like, like so let's say you you can do you do 400 watts at RPM. Okay. You do 380 watts at like
00:24:14
Speaker
110 or 115, I think the oxygen consumption would actually be higher. Oh, interesting. Okay, so you're getting a more potent stimulus and obviously like the, the, yeah the neuromuscular, hang on the neuromuscular, the force production is lower, right? is lower So what one thing you got to remember about when you when you're riding it high, the higher your cadence is, the higher the internal power becomes So the power you- So the less efficient you become. Yeah, so the less efficient you become, yeah. Yeah. um yeah So the power you read on your power meter is just what you're putting into the pedals. Of course. As as you as you ride at increasingly higher cadences, your gross mechanical efficiency starts to decrease, so your internal power becomes higher. But there's also, because it's just not taking into account think like the energy required to move your legs around in a circle,
00:25:08
Speaker
even hundred percent if each if each um pedal stroke was Even if you weren't starting to bop side to side and your efficiency is becoming worse, so you're still actually just using more energy to turn your legs around. Because you're seeing at 120 versus 60 RPM, your legs are going around twice as fast. All the power meters measuring is is is is the amount of work done on the pedals. There's not a hunting for that.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, which is why like the old school sort of, you know, the way of thinking and it probably is there has some truth to it is that the especially the bigger that you are, you know, the the more massing those legs that you have, the more it makes sense to if you're if you're looking for maximum gross efficiency to actually pet a little lower kids. Yeah, but gross efficiency is not the only factor in fatigue. So it depends. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah.
00:25:59
Speaker
yeah um so so yeah what why there's there's that There's that benefit um they high high ocad of doing the higher cadences that you're getting more of the ah central adaptations that you want.
00:26:14
Speaker
um for the same rpo if you like And do you think that that is applicable to everyone? I mean, if we're we're talking about folks who have you know peripheral limitations versus central limitations, would this be still ah an appropriate method of training?
00:26:28
Speaker
ah yeah because i think um that it's, so so well I'll move on to the other advantages of it in in a minute. but and And here's here's why I asked, and I'm going to interrupt for a second. Here's
VO2max for Triathletes and Mental Balance
00:26:40
Speaker
why I asked, because if you're, and this is just my my kind of my pet theory, because most of the folks that I work with are triathletes, right? So especially triathletes who run a lot, right? So running is a really excellent way of central development, right? It's well, it's very much less efficient than cycling in terms of mechanical power because there's a lot of stuff going on. There's you know ground reaction forces. There's a lot of stuff you're doing as a runner that doesn't actually move you forward.
00:27:05
Speaker
Um, and so you, you get these guys who and girls who are, you know, quite developed, quite good, you know, aerobic capacity running and really poor aerobic capacity cycling because, uh, they may not have the, you know, the, the cycling legs yet. So it's for a lot of triathletes who didn't start out as cyclists, there's often ah more of a peripheral limitation. That's the kind of the background behind my question. Yeah. But I think if you working on the peripheral adaptations, like.
00:27:33
Speaker
especially for someone who hasn't cycled much at all, VO2Max work would not be what I'd jump to do. to I'd just be doing yeah low intensity work. that's really that that's ah that's ah yeah i think that's I totally agree with you. And I think that that's ah that's a really important perspective to take on um you know using this. Because everyone talks about VO2Max training. You've got to raise the ceiling. We even started. You you gave us all a list of reasons why VO2Max training is so useful. I totally agree with you. But it's important to note that it might not be appropriate for everybody at all times. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:28:12
Speaker
um so the other the other advantage of doing a higher cadence is that um you can you can do more so let's say takes two scenarios where you do um four by five minutes and you do them every effort is basically a max effort but That's such a brutal workout. I remember talking to Colley. I tried it. Well, man, I think I tried it twice. And then I was like, I can't. Mentally, it's due taxes. So so scenario scenario one is you do them at natural cadence. And scenario two is you do them 20 RPM above natural cadence.
00:28:55
Speaker
So I know what would happen for me if I if i do them in natural cadence like I did. I did five minute all out a couple of weeks ago and in natural cadence and I couldn't ah couldn't really stand up for a while after. just I just had a little Snapchat break for a while and then I found it even hard to descend back down the hill. but um So it's as if I found when I do that type of work Yeah, say like 20, you know, even 10 RPM makes a difference, but certainly 20 RPM makes a difference. Then I find I can, I could do another two, three, four intervals with very little drop off. Then if you think for the central, like my breathing will be as hard or harder.
00:29:44
Speaker
um but and and ah and accident and And from like what I said with the illustration earlier, i'll i've try I can try and find the study for you, which shows the effect of 20 RPM cadence change on oxygen consumption, um which shows that even something like 20 RPM means you actually get more oxygen consumption. What I really want to pull like latch onto to for just a second, Marinus, is that you're in this example, you're doing it by effort, which for so For a lot of us, and I'm i'm the worst at this, is this is hard.
00:30:18
Speaker
Well, obviously it's hard, so that's a stupid thing to say. It's hard because we're used to like power numbers, right? So if you're trying to hold a specific wattage at really high cadence, that's that's going to fail too, right? Because you're you're you're even you know then the oxygen consumption is unsustainable at that higher cadence, at this at the at that wattage. So if you know based on what you said earlier, and it makes perfect sense to me, is the wattage is actually, the watts are going to be lower. Their power is going to be lower.
00:30:44
Speaker
for the sake for an even potentially an even higher VO2. yeah Higher oxygen consumption, yeah. Higher oxygen consumption, yes. Yeah. yeah Yeah, cool. So so I do the sessions in a higher cadence. um So that that then allows you both in within that one session to, you know, using that example, to achieve more time to closer to VO2Max or even closer.
00:31:15
Speaker
And then say you want to do another session the next day, or what I often prescribe with people is you want to do another session on the same day. So it allows you, or even if you want to some you know do a block of multiple double days. um So if you try to do these at natural cadence, yeah you just totally destroy your legs right pretty quickly.
00:31:40
Speaker
ah What I say, even within within one intern, if you do. I've been doing some low-cadence VO2 max work on advice of somebody, and it's like, I mean, I i hope it's effective, because holy crap, it sucks. and yeah i mean But um that's off topic. For some yeah peripheral adaptations, it would yeah would be if that's what you need. but yeah But get it back to what you're saying. so So if you're talking about multiple days, potentially even changing, changing multiples of these together, what is your kind of your thinking on? And let's stick to one single sport. Let's say you're just doing cycling to not complicate the issue. How many of these can you do in ah in like a microcycle? I mean, typically a week for most of us and working nine to five folks. But if you're, you know,
00:32:23
Speaker
If you want to extend it to like 10 day cycles or however you build your micros, ah how much how much density can you get out of your under your folks before you kind of break them? So for the for the people for the people who feel it's suitable, um the general thing I go for is two to three weeks of um of three sessions per week. ah no yeah three Sorry, three double sessions per week. Three doubles, ah so six sessions per week. Yeah.
00:32:51
Speaker
yeah So that's like, like when I try to illustrate it to, you know, my friends and my parents, I say, like, you know, imagine running, if you ever run like a mile, 1500 meters, yeah imagine doing that and then do it again, 20 minutes later, and then doing that, you know, repeating that four times and then doing that same, you know, something similar to that in the evening. and he And people don't swear, don't don't like say mean things to you after after a block of those
Supplementation: Sodium Bicarbonate
00:33:20
Speaker
things after a couple of weeks like that. And they keep coming back for more. I'm I'm I'm impressed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, um yeah, just so like I've had a client who um a client who doesn't doesn't actually race. um He's just gone through this block and he's just like had his recovery, having his recovery period after.
00:33:41
Speaker
yeah um Yeah, I think he found it like everyone does really hard. um but kind of quite enjoyed it in some other way and well I think part of the reason he enjoyed it and people do is that if it's going well even like as the blocks going on you you notice kind of quite ridiculous improvements of it this we would hope for after all ah it sounds it sounds really potent for sure it's like the my only question is like how survivable is I mean I'm sure it is because you've got you know case studies to to show that it is survivable but yeah that would be my kind of my ah
00:34:15
Speaker
Personal sort of sort of hesitation with it And when you're what sort of sessions are we talking about when you're doing these doubles at high cadence? Are we talking like the you know, four by five minutes that kind of with that kind of format or are you doing micros? What are you doing? Yeah, so this depends a bit on um on the athlete um and generally with people with Bigger anaerobic capacity or you know big enough um I tend to what what I really like for them a morning session especially of like If you've not had and a different double the day before, so if you're just going in fresh and it's the first session double, this is is um three three times six minutes. um So a few reasons I like that is because, especially if you front load it and you've only got three intervals, you think like every time you do an interval, unless you're doing like micro intervals and short recoveries, like a bit of time is lost in VO2 kinetics. For sure.
00:35:12
Speaker
you in In a way, you kind of want to get the do the longest interval you can that allows you to sustain a high enough intensity. And then you'll get more time close to VO2 max relative to the mechanical work done. yes what so What I also like about this for people, you know well even people who aren't time restricted, because you kind of kind of want to keep the session one shorter so that you can just have more recovery time before the session too.
00:35:40
Speaker
Um, so if you've only got, I liked, I also like to give like big recoveries and pretty much as a standard, I give 20 minutes, especially for the, you know, the longer ones. So if you want to between intervals, intervals. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, they're, they're very healthy then. Okay. Yeah. So I was like going to ask you like one to one. No, this is like three to one or one to three, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. So even if I was doing five or four minutes, I still give 20 minute recovery because basically it's just.
00:36:08
Speaker
um the longest you can have before you start to lose your warm-up effect um so you know i like yeah we could talk about warm-ups but i kind of yeah like the idea is you you do something and then it's a priming effort and then you want to reconstitute w prime but not wait too long so that the metabolic environment totally goes back to how many stasis so ah makes sense so twer twe between like you know say you had just in a warm-up effort you'd want one between 10 and 20 minutes to um to before you actually start your race or your interval or whatever um so 20 minutes is just like yeah like say the longest you can have that such that you haven't actually lost the
00:36:51
Speaker
The warm-up effect so sometimes even like you know but off topic but you know on longer rides I would even if you have like if you have even more time between that intervals You'd have to like do you know another opener on it so Yeah, I don't think that anyone I mean well I don't want to say anyone but most of the folks that I talked to on ah on a regular basis they They you know, they don't usually have time for a two and a half hour, three hour session in the mornings anyway. before yeah you go to work me say Yeah. Anyway, so this, the, um, the three by six is good because you can have those long recoveries. Um, but then, cause there's only three intervals, you only need two of them. So that's the warmup could be, you know, I think, I think 30 is a lot better than 20, but it has to be 20. It could be 20 minutes. You do three intervals, 20 plus 18 and you need 40 minutes recovery. So that's almost you can go and get done in an hour.
00:37:44
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it's not bad at all. So it's really not bad at all yet. um So if you're on the training, you could you could get that done an hour, between an hour and a half, quite comfortably. And don't need any cooldowns, that's just extra training. um So then for the PM sessions, I always go, so I've experimented with this, trying giving people longer efforts in the evening, but I think Yeah, based basically, I found that it works much better to give people shorter efforts in the evening. And I'm not sure exactly why that works better. But I think a lot of it is even just like psychologically, um it's easier to, to like to sort of push hard for shorter amounts of time when you're tired. The only advantage I find in my kind of practice and personal experience is usually the
00:38:41
Speaker
the fuel state can be better controlled for later sessions in the day, right? Like if you're, you know, you wake up first thing in the morning, depends how much time you have in the mornings, obviously, but if you're time crunched, it's sometimes hard hard to get enough.
00:38:54
Speaker
carbs into your body for a really high quality session in the morning. oh no So sorry what um with what what I'm talking about here is is for for the second session of the day, like given that you've already done the session. No, no, I understand. I'm just saying ah my counterpoint to what you were saying is I sometimes find it easier to do harder sessions in the in the evening because I'm better fueled in the evening versus the morning.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yes, yes i ye can and so and everyone's circadian rhythm is a bit different. so exactly yeah For example, life I find the double days quite tough because the morning one feels too early and the evening one feels too late. so as yeah I feel just really feel so much better between like 11 and 3 o'clock. Yeah, though that that's ideal. i totally yeah i mean on the On the days where I don't, you know on a weekend I can get away with that maybe if my family will let me. But yeah, unlike work days, it's it's a bit of a mission if you're depending on obviously wake up times and start times, as you say. Yeah, the PM sessions, I would generally say that a very typical double day might be three by six minutes in the AM and six by three minutes in the p or five to
Research and Practicalities of Bicarbonate Usage
00:40:00
Speaker
six by three minutes in the the PM. Yeah. And are you still doing these by feel or are you chasing specific power targets?
00:40:07
Speaker
No, no and i so yeah I use intervals.icu to set training and to try and like just reiterate that I don't want people to use erg mode and I don't want them to have a particular power target in mind, I put something really vague, like three to 600 watts.
00:40:26
Speaker
which
00:40:29
Speaker
That's quite a rage, I like that. Yeah, and then I just say like, yeah, like the the first effort or occasionally what what I have done with power targets is If people are routinely starting the session way too hard, and this is more of a problem with like people who do have a lot of anaerobic capacity, then they blow up. ah sometimes Because it feels easy in the beginning. Yeah, I'll sometimes put um a maximum power for interval one, as they don't do more than this, and then from the rest of the session like build into it.
00:41:02
Speaker
um so sometimes like yeah but or but that that's as far as i'd go with like the the power targets um and it's i normally say just like session the first effort i think um I'm going a bit away from just using like out of 10 rpe for it and instead I try to say something like hold back about 20 watts from a max effort um in stuff like that in combination with like yeah that and an out of 10 rpe but basically hold hold back a little bit on the last effort and then
00:41:40
Speaker
Just the end of the session, RPE should be yeah like sort of 9 out of 10. So very, very hard overall. yeah yeah and do you find like And then you are obviously watching cadence because cadence is ah is a parameter of your workout design for these. and And the other important thing is that um I like them to be front loaded as well.
00:42:03
Speaker
Um, because from starting harder, I've read is that, that, that, um, yeah, increases the time close to be a two max relative to, uh, I'm still like, you know, if you're talking six sessions, three doubles at nine out of 10, that is still very daunting for me. Um, but, uh, you know, kudos to, to the folks who who who can get that done.
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah, so it's it's it's it's not all year is the thing, isn't it? It's like it's its yeah it's one month, a block like this, you can only do once a year, may maybe twice a year. That's an important point. i don't yeah with If someone's got a full-time job and kids, and what you know and there I can see the whole life context is extremely um stressful. and and all they year there if if someone if someone hasn't if someone's general training volume is also too low then there's you know there's other things we do that are low hanging fruit um or just basically you're yeah if you you you won't be able to tolerate it if you're
00:43:13
Speaker
if if you can't regularly train, you know, more than a certain volume. um But that doesn't mean you shouldn't use these type of, you know, that would be like, ah in terms of a focus block of doing six, you know, three doubles a week. But with a lot of people that, you know, I wouldn't do that with I would still give them double days. um Because a double day does seem to be, I guess, a so much more effective than two single days.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, the Norwegians are having pretty good of pretty good luck with it right now. Yeah, well, I mean, I think the reason they're doing it is more for you know running economy. And I think that's why. Yeah, they're more like threshold, sub-threshold kind of stuff around. yeah Yeah, I think the reason it works with running and improving running economy is quite different to the mechanisms that this is working here.
00:44:03
Speaker
um But yeah, ah back to like people, you know, with with with jobs and oh yeah lots of else going on in their life and relatively time restricted. um A lot of them that have done the you know, will often do like a double that one double day a week.
00:44:20
Speaker
and my feet and then I give them an extra day off so whereas like you know in other training bucks they might do two rest days three ride days or you know four ride days we give them them like the double day and then the next day they just have off and they like you know lie in and have more sleep so um it's uh yeah I think like I put a lot of weight in, um you know, the fact that, you know, when you go over LT1 for any non-negligible amount of time, you cause some autonomic stress. mean So like when you do do that, I kind of want it to be for like worthwhile.
00:45:04
Speaker
Um, so we're obviously like doing a a double day is really is pushing that to, to the extreme. but Sure. Compared to maybe a lot of coaches, I set a lot less intensity days per year. Um, but then I, I do also so make them count sometimes as well with the stuff like this. For sure.
00:45:23
Speaker
I got two questions and then I want to move us on to something, ah a topic that's not VO2MAX. But my first question is, um you so you mentioned you might only do one of these, you might do a block of this kind of training, this, you know, let's say two week or three week build with a recovery period once or most twice a year.
00:45:42
Speaker
And are you finding that the the, you know, I think we can agree that there's if the for the people that can that can hack it, there's ah there's a big benefit. Does that benefit hang around? Can you maintain it or does it does it start to erode? over Because you're you're obviously your annual frequency is quite low. Yeah, and massive. massive um yeah like is As long as you carry on riding at a reasonable volume, it's pretty much permanent.
00:46:08
Speaker
Oh, okay. Amazing. I'm like, you're, you're kind of, you're, you're making me really want to give this a go. Cause I'm actually in like a VO two max block in the moment. So now maybe I was really, yeah I couldn't, I couldn't recommend it. I couldn't recommend it enough. And what I'd also say is for someone doing it the first time is that, um, it seems like the minimal effective dose for that like second session is, is not that high.
00:46:33
Speaker
Okay. So and it just seems like something perhaps around like the increase in blood volume you get from that first session is kind of about peaking in that alike. So we often talk about like adaptations being taking a long time, but there are some adaptations that actually happen really quickly and then you lose really quickly like changes in blood volume. Yeah. Yeah. Like what seven days is when I remember hearing.
00:46:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And i think part I think part of why it could be working is that actually just when you do this session two, your blood volume is like really peaked from session one. And then, so this ties back in with why you do the heat training around it and why we have that big aerobic base going into it.
00:47:18
Speaker
Because you want to come into it with ah like a healthy blood plasma volume. Yeah. And just the higher it is, the better. Because then you think how much more, if you've got more blood, how much like more your heart has to stretch and then how much harder it has to be to you to contract to push it back out. It's yeah like asking it to to lift a heavier weight or push a bigger gear. ah Fair enough. So just like what the PM session actually could look like.
00:47:49
Speaker
Um, I've seen a lot of people, including myself, sometimes I've been so exhausted for that second session that I'll only do like three or four times three minute efforts, which are only like 50 Watts above threshold. If that, um, whereas, you know, if, if I was fresh doing a three minute effort in actual cadence, I could do it like.
00:48:13
Speaker
200, 250 watts above threshold. So it's, you know, looking at both looking at the power and the absolute amount of work, it, it looks kind of like white lane. Like you don't get loads of kudos on your Strava for that. Yes. so It looks pretty lame, but it is also seems to be one of the most potent bike trainings you could ever do. So and quite interesting.
00:48:39
Speaker
that is That is super interesting because I don't think I personally have not heard of this approach before for VO2Max specific. So I'm going to give it a try because you know it's fun to be a goodie pick for this kind of stuff. um My last question on VO2Max and you know recognizing that you're you know you're a cycling coach, not a triathlon coach or a running coach, but I'm going to ask you to speculate, what if your doubles are different sports? What if you've got a morning ride and an afternoon track session run, for example? Would you think that there would be a similar effect?
00:49:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I think ah we we focused all our discussion there on the um ah sent central adaptations, but I don't actually, you know i don't i don't that's all kind of speculation. I don't know for sure why why they work so well and you know part of it could be is just that is is even to do with the peripheral adaptations and how it's just splitting up the work over a day allows you to just do that much more quality work than you do more work in um but then it's kind of like you are still getting it you know in an overloaded you know it's so still like kind of it's allowing you to do more work but still getting the stimulus of it being in one session because it's in one day
00:49:56
Speaker
Um, yeah so I think, I think it could, it could well be, you know, it could be a bit of both, you know, but like, and until you could like rigorously test that, you know, we can't, can't really know. Um, you know, I don't, for ahugh for all, for all the clients and I've seen, I've seen it work well in, I haven't, you know, rigorously tested.
00:50:18
Speaker
the both the central and peripheral components of their VIT Max pre and post to directly i figure out exactly what's going on. Um, I think it could, it could be a combination of the two. Um, and when I've consulted with triathletes, um, I find very often they tend to do just some intensity, like very often, like most days, um, to just try and, cause they, you know, they've got, they want to do a hard. You got three sports to squeeze shoe horn into your, into your micro. Exactly. Yeah. So.
00:50:52
Speaker
Um, I, when I consulted with triathletes, I very often got them to you come down to two intensity days a week and, and, and yeah, don't don't double them up. So, um, something like one double day we make the bike the priority and you just do like a sort of kind of hard tempo run in the evening. And then the other day you might do like a, you know, track session or, you know, a hard run session and then on the bike in the evening, you just, well, you just do your kind of the reverse, you do like a kind of hard. Hmm. And then you have the, and then, uh, just, I know I said, I was, I had no more questions, but now as you keep talking and keep coming with questions and then on the days that, uh, that you're not doing intensity, what sort of, uh, you're not doing like this high intensity work. What sort of intensity are you prescribing during the other days? During during a via too much block.
00:51:45
Speaker
Yes. i'm ah This is where, yeah, you have to keep the endurance really low. So like, yeah, two two out of ten RPE sort of thing. So um um it might include like a really small amount of you know riding a bit closer to LT1 you know like eight a 20 minute 30 minute block a week you know a bit closer but still below LT1 something like that um but really just trying to you still want to keep the volume like a bit higher when you like you know not you don't you like it's not like you drop all your your training volume
00:52:27
Speaker
Yeah, I would say you do want to also be doing a substantial amount less than whatever your peak volume was before so that you you can recover from yet from the the hard sessions. um right But you do want to really like minimize all the neuromuscular fatigue from the other training you're doing. yeah Outside ah the the really hard stuff,
00:52:53
Speaker
both for mental and physical reasons it's it's just cruising ah marinness this has been so bad there's been so much stuff here that ah my kind of my head's a little bit spinning not in a bad way but just you're giving me lots of really fun things that I want to try um on myself first, but then I want to inflict them on the people that I, that I coach, uh, just to see what the, what the outcomes are going to be. Um, and I know that you and I wanted to talk about work at much lower intensities things, uh, you know, work below LT one, but I'm going to park that conversation because I want to give it the space that it needs.
00:53:29
Speaker
ah So let's spend a bit of time in the time that we have left today and talk about your thinking about supplementation Specifically the one that's been rattling around in my brain is sodium bicarbonate, but we don't have to limit ourselves to that one um and I was you sent me a couple weeks ago a video of you like making jello in your kitchen with that with the You know kind of grocery store baking soda um So let's start ah Actually, hang on, before we do that. so By the time that i I will release this episode, I will have released my conversation with Morton on bicarb. We're going to assume that the listeners kind of have listened to that. If not, folks, press pause. Go back to the last episode, listen to the Morton conversation. We talked a lot about ah you know the the use cases.
00:54:18
Speaker
um I'm more interested, Miranis, in how you use ah bicarbonate, when you use it, how often you use it, and then I definitely want to circle back to you making bicarbonated jello in your kitchen as ah is kind of a finishing thought maybe. Yeah, so if i'm we were just talking about bicarbonate, so using sodium bicarbonate first, so it' I find it quite strange how it suddenly exploded as something that you might use when it's one of like the most well-researched and established supplements for improving endurance performance. which My pet theory on this is that Morton came on the scene and Morton has deep pockets and they started talking about it and and getting a lot of
00:55:03
Speaker
people with very loud megaphones talking about it, and that's why you and I are talking about it right now. That's my theory. Yeah, yeah, could could could well be. um And because yeah, because it <unk> I'd often lies a lot, even my clients will still do kind of dismiss it is I can't quite be bothered with this is I'll do beta, I'll lean, I'll do creatine.
00:55:25
Speaker
yeah it's It's just that bit more effort, so I won't bother. it um Because it it it is difficult to to get it right with the the GI tolerance. So with that in mind, with that little bit of faff about it, what which sessions do you recommend that folks use it for? Which sessions do you use it for? How often are you actually making a making a point of taking?
00:55:48
Speaker
Yeah, so i I'd only use it for sessions where you're riding at threshold or above. Okay, yep. I don't think it's worth the, ah but yeah, I don't think this it is worth taking for anything else. um So, yeah, and i generally, like, if someone, if someone's, the the most optimal protocol would be to use for an initial dose of like 0.4 grams per kilo. Okay. Like at least 60 minutes before and and depending on the individual symptoms you know I think if you could have even more like two hours if if you're struggling with the GI tolerance
00:56:31
Speaker
It's better. um And then, yeah, the the the jelly, mixing with the making jelly out of it seems to work well because it's first mixing with a lot of carbohydrate and water. yeah And then I think also the pectin just kind of allows it to to like ah arrive in your stomach um yeah and and help help with like like in in ah in a bolus and then that helps with like gastric emptying.
00:57:02
Speaker
I think that's the mechanism. I'm sure that that Morton will will challenge me on this and I'm just guessing, but I think that's similar to what they're trying to do with their alginate, carbohydrate, alginate solution that they that they that their system uses. Yeah, I think that i think they use pectin as well.
00:57:19
Speaker
ah okay maybe a combination of the two, the idea is just because I worked in my dissertation, not dissertation, yeah dissertation for my degree, I worked with, them my supervisor was Lewis James who did a study on on Morton comparing it to other um just a normal like hydrogen, I think it was, or it's complaining that, you know, they're hydrogel with the pectin, the sodium alginate, and basically showing me the oxidation data and the performance data and he's showing saying that it's like, it's exactly the same. And the reason there was because yeah this the alginate in the pectin helps with gastric emptying.
00:58:02
Speaker
But gastric emptying is not a limiter for exogenous carbohydrate oxidation, but potentially it does improve GI comfort a little bit. And GI comfort is a major limiter with sodium bicarbonate. Major, yes. So 0.4 grams, that's higher than I've read, because I was was reading 0.2 to 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight. um Okay, interesting. I've tried it myself. So I've just, you know, just very recently, and I've, a friend of mine is a a sport nutritionist, and she, she hooked me up with some enteric coated capsules. But at my like, you know, at 385 kilos of body weight, even at like just to go just north of point two, because that's where I started, I'm still swallowing 1820 of these little
00:58:52
Speaker
horse pills in order to get that dose so that's not a I mean it's okay it's not the end of the world but it's and I had no GI issues with them so that that was cool but um yeah if there's another way to do it it's it'd be fun to explore Yeah, so I'd i'd i'd recommend the yeah make just so just making making jelly as you would and um you know just get the cubes, break them up, pour boiling water on, ah mix it up and then let it set in the fridge. The only difference is that you you weigh out, you bicarbonate and then you add that to the mixture and it explodes but hopefully not goes into the bowl.
00:59:30
Speaker
So are you just using so the jelly they so the bicarb I imagine you're just buying, you know grocery store baking soda. Yeah Yeah, okay. And then the for the jelly like are we are we talking about like, you know, just little jello packets or Like, you know jello brand. I don't know if you if you have that in the UK. Yeah, so just just ah it Yeah um I've just been using like, you know, like heart leaves jelly. It's like it's cubes of jelly, but they're like really concentrated and Okay, just have to like melt melt then um So yeah, I'm not sure how it's different in what sure and supermarkx like yes it's It's worth a shot. So I guess you just see you're following me So you're just following the instructions for for using the jelly and just adding bicarbonate to it. Yeah, if I understand correctly, yeah, that's amazing
01:00:17
Speaker
Okay. No, that seems like an interesting way interesting way to try getting it in, and certainly cheaper than... I mean, i'm ah I'm a fan of... I like the idea of what Morton does, and I think that they they're very good at marketing, and I've used their products in races. I've paid for them out of pocket, but when they're given to me in a race, I'll use them, and i I really like it, and tolerate it really well. But um you know if there's if there's a cheaper option, I would...
01:00:45
Speaker
That's that's where I'm going. So my my current perspective is that there's even so using the jelly versus just like trying to take it neat is like guaranteed. It's it's also pretty rough. I don't know if you've ever tried it. But yeah, just the the taste of it is pretty special. Basically, you can't you can't do it. There's one they there's no net gain by trying to take it neat. Yeah. Unless it's some kind of prank that you're trying to pull out your own body.
01:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So yeah this is with so so for for general training, like you let's say you've got some ah some hard hard inter interval session, you've got some VO2 max efforts, or you've got anaerobic capacity, or you've got a 20-minute test, or whatever it is, a rate or ah maybe even a time trial, I would i would just use the um I would use this, this jelly method. Um, but if I was doing for when I'm actually going to road road race, um, I think I probably will invest in, um, the Morton system because from my standing, it's also like slower release. So that's what they're saying too. Yeah. yeah In our, in our conversation, they were saying that they're, they're little micro capsules that are in the, in the end up in the solution.
01:02:07
Speaker
they are They are time released. so they've I'm paraphrasing now, and listeners, you will have heard this in the previous episode. um I think they were saying the different folks that they've seen high levels of bicarbonate blood as long as like six to eight to 10 hours after ingestion, yeah which is pretty crazy. which is Which is what you need in a road race, because Like the the most key effort normally in a road race is, it you know if it's going well, then the key effort is at the end. and So yeah, that's when you want every little bit of help that you can get.
01:02:45
Speaker
Um, so I'll, I, unless I can figure out a way to make these little caps as well and put that in my general, I'll probably just be forking out for some orton biker, um, in a month's time when I start racing. So yeah, it's, but for, for general training, um,
01:03:06
Speaker
just drew general training sessions where you know it's it's not like you need to perform in the last hour or something. or um then yeah i i I just try making this this jelly under the cheap option. yeah and Especially if you're talking about you know we we we just finished talking about the max work and you're trying to condense it in ah in a way that you know your sessions are not much longer than an hour, ah then you're probably blood levels of bicarb are going to be pretty stable for that much. Yes. and um
01:03:38
Speaker
so that there's yeah the There's there's the the acute use of bicarb and that increases your performance like acutely, so that one session will go better. but There's um yes a study that I looked at recently that um was demonstrating that you also get like so over the same training block here they were doing something like you know eight by two minutes or something ah okay a control and a placebo and the um no bicarbonate yeah placebo and and the group that was supplemented with bicarb before all the training sessions saw like really quite significantly greater improvement in pretty much everything over the course of that um training block so
01:04:25
Speaker
Like, yeah, it's not, it's not just like you'd get the same result. If you didn't take Bicarb before your sessions, just you would have pushed more what's in your sessions, which you know arguably doesn't really matter. The fact that you're able to push more power, um, means that you then actually increase your VO2 max by more. Yeah, you're getting a bigger training stimulus, right? Yeah. Um, well, so hang on, was this, was this, and was this a study of, uh, acute supplementation or chronic supplementation? Sorry, I missed that part. So what were they doing?
01:04:56
Speaker
How much and for how long? and in that In that study, that was that was where I got the 0.4 grams per kilo from. Okay. So they were taking a daily? they were taking it No, so they weren't doing any intervals every day, but every day I did do the intervals. They took this and it was for like 10 or 12 weeks study or something. I can't remember the details now, but you know it was it was like a longer term study. And before all the inter interval sessions, they were having bicarbonate versus placebo. Okay. So they were still taking it, taking the bicarb only, only prior to the, the, the heavy days or during the heavy days. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, so in the, the then the chronic part of the the study would just be that they're not seeing the, they're continuing to see the, but the, the ergogenic effect, even like multiple weeks into supplementation. so so The chronic part of it is that, so like,
01:05:54
Speaker
So the baseline test, no one takes bicarbonate. okay yeah And then and then they that they they're both the same. The groups are matched. Then both groups do, ah do that I think it was like eight weeks of training or 12 weeks or whatever it was. um And one group i one doesn't just take the placebo before their high intensity sessions. The other takes bicarbonate. Then in the end, they both do the performance test of U2max. I can't remember what the other... is Oh, I see what you're saying. okay And the group that throughout during their interval training session had been taking bicarbonate improved their performance by substantially more than the group that had been taking placebo. So placebo is still improved. Yes. Bicarb improved their performance from pre to post intervention by more. Yeah. And then the thinking is, and maybe this is just a hypothesis that that we're that the reason the the reason we're seeing that effect is because the training sessions with the bicarb were just more effective. Exactly. Yeah.
01:06:53
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I got you now. Okay. That's what I was. That's the piece I was missing. Okay. It's also, it's also quite a good model for showing what happens if you artificially increase your anaerobic capacity.
01:07:04
Speaker
yeah I like it. That's a really interesting way of thinking about it. Okay. Yeah. You could also some of the same effect by yeah hitting the gym for a few months before you start your aerobic build. So.
01:07:18
Speaker
Okay, that one we're gonna have to save for for our next kind of conversation, Marinus. The gym piece and the LT1 piece or the sub LT1 piece, obviously super relevant to the big picture here, but I think we might have to park it at that. Yeah. yeah Well, man, listen, this has been an awesome conversation. I know I've learned that i've learned a lot. And ah to be honest, I mean, I say this with pretty good regularity on the show, but i the the thing that I like most about doing the podcast, because of course we don't monetize it, so we don't get any like financial out of it. It's just learning from ah from smart people. So this was the exact reason why I really wanted to bring the podcast back, this conversation, and I'm grateful to you for your time and your expertise. Thank you. No worries at all. I've yeah enjoyed it. Yeah. Thank you very much.
01:08:09
Speaker
And listeners, thank you very much as always for listening. If you like what we hear, recommend us to a friend, give us a rating or review on your preferred platform and check back in. I know I haven't been publishing these super regularly, but there's usually one or two of them. Thanks everyone.
01:09:54
Speaker
You have to prescribe VO2 max training differently depending on somewhat anaerobic capacity, but ultimately like you've got more to work. if you more More is is better. like yeah it's you you kind of It's almost like you're dealing with a problem see if your anaerobic capacity is too low and you're trying to increase your VO2 max, whereas it's a lot easier and more effective the higher it is.