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Bjorn Kafka 3
714 Plays1 month ago
One of our favourite guests from the pre-hiatus days is back to talk about:
- The Power of Collaboration: Discover how Bjorn's connections with other experts, like Javier Sola, have shaped his understanding of training and performance.
- The Endless Pursuit of Knowledge: Explore Bjorn's philosophy of continuous learning and how it drives his coaching approach.
- The Science of Training: Dive into the latest research on muscle fiber types, the Hickson protocol (an oldie but goodie), and the impact of different training modalities on performance.
- Fueling the Engine: Discuss the importance of nutrition and hydration in endurance sports, including the role of carbohydrates and the optimal intake strategies.
- The Future of Training: Explore emerging trends in training technology and how they can be used to optimize performance.
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Transcript
Podcast Networking and Opportunities
00:00:00
Speaker
the first time when we were on an and ah on a podcast, and and on a forum podcast, and it actually was yours. yeah And I think it was, I met Andrew on the Eurobike. yes And then you said, yeah, I have this friend and and he's doing that podcast. And I was like, yeah,
00:00:19
Speaker
And its like then I don't know. And then we ended up having this podcast. And this was more or less and an opener for us. It's really interesting. Yes, we should charge. No, because then we suddenly then become, for example, got in contact with us.
00:00:39
Speaker
nice And we had the first metabolic things ah on Aerotune, on Instagram, and then Javier Sola, who is now the and head coach of UIE, also working with Progaredo, who's also We ah just, I wouldn't say we are friends, but we are in close contact for the last four years, I would say. Amazing. And then always having
Metabolic Discussions and Collaborations
00:01:00
Speaker
ah some short kind talks about training and how to adapt and things like that. So I learned from him and maybe he learned some stuff from me. i'm We don't know. so and and so And actually the the Endurance Innovation Podcast was the beginning.
00:01:17
Speaker
Really, because we really get got in contact with the people. The people suddenly realized that we are there. yeah
Aerotune's Expansion and Global Impact
00:01:31
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I'm Andrew. And I'm Michael. And you're listening to the Endurance Innovation Podcast.
00:01:50
Speaker
Hey listeners, Michael here. And, uh, those of you who have listened to us in the past, uh, before our two year hiatus, no doubt recognize the voice that was in the cold open that you just heard. And that of course is, uh, from his show, Bjorn Kafka. And, uh, I was so excited to talk to Bjorn today that I actually didn't record a proper introduction to him in our, in our conversation. So this is it. And, uh, here's that talk.
00:02:22
Speaker
Let's just catch up. like It's been two years. You've done some stuff. We've done some stuff. Let's talk. Yes. Yeah. um So do you want to do you want to go first? Tell us tell us what's happening with Aerotune. Are you still doing Aerotesting? Are you obviously still doing metabolic stuff? What's happening? ah Actually, um a lot of things happened. Aerotune is getting bigger. Excellent. More teams. We tested really, really, really big teams. and We have a partnership with Visma.
00:02:52
Speaker
And we're also working very closely with Watchhop, of course. yeah
Training Insights with Tim Sminger
00:03:00
Speaker
And if you follow these guys, you also know who they work with. So um we have a nice place in the Arrow world, I would say. And also in the in the Metabolic world, um we also have a lot of teams testing there. And um the interesting thing is, because I talked about that,
00:03:19
Speaker
ah today with Sebastian. Sebastian is the other guy from Eritre. Yes, i am I am familiar with him. he's i think I think you have maybe one more one more interview on endurance innovation than him, but
Coaching Philosophy and AI Integration
00:03:30
Speaker
he's been on before too, yes.
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, so if listeners don't know. and So Aerotune is mainly two people, it's me and Sebastian. So, and we talked about the the first time when we were on an and ah on a podcast, and and on a forum podcast, and it actually was yours, yeah? And I think it was, I met Andrew on the Eurobike. Yes. And then he said, yeah, I have this friend and and he's doing that podcast and I was like, yeah,
00:03:59
Speaker
And then it's like, then I don't know. And then we ended up having this podcast and this was more or less and an opener for us. It's really interesting. Yes, we should charge us. No, because then we suddenly then become, for example, got in contact with us. nice And we had the first metabolic things so on Aerotune on Instagram, and then Javier Sola.
00:04:27
Speaker
who is now the and head coach of UIE, also working with Poggager, who's also, we ah just, I wouldn't say we are friends, but we are in close contact for the last four years, I would say. Amazing. And then always having ah some short kind talks about training and how to adapt and things like that.
00:04:47
Speaker
So I learned from him, and maybe he learned some stuff from me. i'm We don't know. so and and so And actually, the the Endurance Innovation Podcast was the beginning, really. Because we really get got in contact
Innovative Training Strategies
00:05:00
Speaker
with the people. The people suddenly realized that we are there. And then it's like the the spaniards Spanish people really are and Yeah, they they they they started and then it was like and England and then and m Norway and all these kind of things. And then, ah yeah, we we weren't so big before. yeah And now Germany too, of course.
00:05:25
Speaker
That's so cool. That's really great to hear. i think i actually i reached I think I maybe reached out to Sebastian because I was talking to Pierre Fachampre, I'm pronouncing his name correctly. yeah he was He was the one who was telling ah who was telling us because he was on our show and he was a listener who who who was just talking to us.
00:05:43
Speaker
And he kept telling me about the Arrow platform. He goes, you've got to get this guy on. You've got to have to talk to him. He's really good. This Arrow tune thing is really cool. And I played around with it a little while before I reached out to you guys. And I was like, I wasn't super convinced. But then once I started talking to you, it was a different story. But yeah, I mean, that's... It warms my heart. I mean, it's so great to hear that something good came out of these conversations. Yeah. It was really the beginning. It's nice. Yeah. And now if you look back, I mean like from a coach perspective,
00:06:17
Speaker
um and two world champs, second place, fourth place, two times, and and only mountain biking. mountain yeah that's yeah
Music's Role in Performance and Future Plans
00:06:30
Speaker
yeah On the track also, now and ah silver medal, a lot of national champs. I mean, like it's it's crazy if you sometimes look, especially in mountain biking, if I look at the world ranking, it's like, okay, there are top 10 guys and I work with six of them or five I don't know it's always just like a little bit up and down and um and yeah it's it's funny yeah and um from you constantly change and this is something I always discuss with my father-in-law who's a very interesting guy in astrophysics a very very clever guy and
00:07:11
Speaker
on i um it's maybe one year ago we were in Paris and he has a nice little house there because he worked there for many years at the observation in Paris and at at one point I said to him, you know, Brandon,
00:07:28
Speaker
And the more I know, the more unsecure I am. now And it's really like, yeah there is no it's like a big floating thing of coaching and things you have in your mind. Yeah. And then I really don't know. Yeah, it's if someone asked me what to do. And it's like, i am there are so many things and there's there's no direction and and and he said yeah it's the same yeah you go really deep yeah he was a very good guy and like whole stuff um together with Stephen Hawken, Brandon Cartes his name and um he said like ah you you more the more you know and the less you really know yeah it's it's and and sometimes I feel like I'm on that point yeah I'm really like
00:08:17
Speaker
I know so much. And I sometimes it's more or less like a feeling how to use the ideas and methods, and you know, and I know, yeah and that I'm, there are people that there are a lot of coaches that are way better. um And but I have the feeling sometimes there's a very good writer coming a very good role to writer. And I'm like, and I can't promise you that I'm making you better. And and then Yeah, we start working and then hopefully is something good is happening. But yeah I wouldn't say and the the the more wins I have and the greater the athletes are that I work with, the
00:09:01
Speaker
I'm really becoming unsure if the things I'm doing are right. It's always like a proof, okay, one more world champion or one more here and one more World Cup win. But I'm always like, is it luck? Both good people are coming, yeah?
00:09:16
Speaker
It could be, but that's when you have to that's when you have to rely on statistics, right? They're like, well, you know, you know your your individual case may be luck, but if you look at it in, you know, you've got ah an ever-growing sample. yeah um I think maybe that's where you can hang your hat. But I totally, I mean, you're speaking my language when you're talking about the more you know, the less you feel like you know. I think that's, yeah I honestly think that that's ah that's that's healthy. That's the way that humans should.
00:09:43
Speaker
I really think it's when we it's when we think that we know everything that we get ourselves into trouble. And um the there was an analogy that camera who shared this with me that that really helps illustrate that is, if you, you know, if you can imagine your, your, your, um you the span of your knowledge as a sphere.
00:10:00
Speaker
And what you don't know is the surface of that sphere, the more you pack into the sphere. Sure, your your knowledge grows, but the surface area of that sphere is also growing, and that is what you you realize that you still need to figure out or you still don't understand. So yeah for me, yeah, that that that was a really helpful analogy. Absolutely. that I feel exactly the same way. like i haven't really i'm more I'm much more of a... like what's sort i where like I'm much more of a dilettante, I think. I like to dabble dabble in a lot of different things um and you know understand aerodynamics. you know To some extent, I understand physiology, to some extent, coaching, psychology, all that stuff, but certainly far from an expert in anything. But yeah, anytime I go deep into it, I feel the same way. I was like, wow, there's so much so many more questions than answers.
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, the the nice thing today about my job is on the ah one hand, we have the development of Aerotune, the platform and the ideas we have also developing and the AI, for example, and trying to make things and or trying to yeah discover more things and then And of course, ah and AI is most of the time a black box, but so so you have to really invent rules so that you really know, okay, we have an input and see what's going out and then you got to constrain it properly. Yes. Yeah. So this is the one thing and this is really.
00:11:24
Speaker
helping and speeding up the process. and And on the other hand, the knowledge you have, and when you start and looking at new things, there are more details, for example, cadence, I think cadence is a very nice thing. And okay let's talk about cadence. Yeah, I think and if you look at at the talk and the possible recruitment on of fibers, if you have a lower talk, but then it's it's also cadence and dependent. So if you have like a higher cadence, you still recruit a lot of fast switch fibers. Yeah.
00:11:54
Speaker
And um it's it's really like a three-dimensional problem. I'm really making trying to make sense out of that. And I think there's a lot of truth or a lot of things we have to discover. I also read a study a few days ago from 2021 about the muscle fiber distributions of and cross-country skiers.
00:12:14
Speaker
And so they looked at it, at the legs and at the arms. And the fibrous revolution was more or less the same. But the legs... You mean within the athlete, if you compare legs and arms? Yes, which is quite fascinating because I thought like fast-twitch fibers are way higher because of...
00:12:35
Speaker
and try to change the life of when you really imagine and if you really feel very fast that you have a lot of faster drivers in your in your arms. But no, way well more or less, and it was pretty, and more or less the same. and But if I'm not mistaken, but the interesting thing is that the legs are ah double ah double the time efficient and fatigue resistant. I just have like a fast look over it. So I'm Um, I forgot what's really the mechanism behind it. So I can look it up. Was this the conversion to the type two X? Is that, is that what they're? No, no, no, it wasn't. It is. Um, I think it was, I'm not sure. Yeah. And I may be lying. I think it's more like the fat lipids, um, somewhere, um, at the micro con mitochondria or stuff like that. So I'm not sure I have to look it up. So, but this is only to make it gives you an idea, um, about the things, um, I'm looking also for running. I'm working with. and
00:13:31
Speaker
In ultra runner and it's a completely different field for me The friend of mine has ultra running magazine. It's a very big one in Europe. It's called trail magazine And I worked with him for many years at the bike magazine now because i was yeah I remember your, your history was was we're in that world. It's straightforward. yeah And, um, so, and I gave a podcast and he interviewed me and then a few weeks later I got a call from an ultra runner.
00:14:02
Speaker
And she and and her name is Eva Maria Sperger. And she's also, she's my age 45. And she also works as a child psychologist full time or more or less full time. Okay, so which is quite complicated, because you need a lot of volume. And she asked me if I can help her and building up a VO2 max and all these kinds of things. And because in that podcast, I said, okay, maybe we should change and the way we train in or what how I would train when I have like a trail runner. So how would how would you change? I want to know because trail running is always a fun activity.
00:14:41
Speaker
The biggest problem is of course the impact. Yeah. But this is one thing as i I will come to that a little bit later. Okay. For sure. I have so many questions. Okay. yes so the first thing is yeah I said, okay, maybe we should change the impact. now Why not going on the bike?
00:14:56
Speaker
Well, this was a pretty simple thing. So um we put a lot of volume. and We did a lot of volume on the bike and then we had quality sessions, so running quality sessions, harder ones. yeah and and and she and And this works really well. yeah Her view to max was higher than ever. um I think if you calculate it was like 65 something, no wow which is quite high for 45 year old female. yeah And she finished second at the IGA Ultra marathon, which is a pretty big one, a very good one. Amazing. And then really lost the race and like 10 kilometers to go. Completely glycogen depleted. So anyway, we lost a lot from that. You can't trick that, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And so and it's it's it's really nice to work in these fields. Also like with the running now, if you look at the mechanics,
00:15:54
Speaker
for example, the stride sensors, the new ones there, you really see the movement. And it gives you a lot of ideas. And now we try to use the good old Hixum protocol, which I love. Because sometimes it works really wonders. Yeah, remind me what that is, because it's ringing a bell, but I don't remember what it is. It's an amazing study from the end of 70s or beginning of 80s. And they had this linear increase of VO2 max over six or seven weeks. And what they did was, I think they trained four or five times a week, and they did a lot of intervals, always threshold or above threshold. And they did every week, they did, I think it was like a half an hour time trial.
00:16:43
Speaker
Oh boy. It's not it's pretty pretty intense training. It was super hard. And all of the and participants and had like this linear increase in view to max, which was amazing. And after that period of the study, they asked the participants if they want to continue. And everyone said, no. was It was so horrible. But and I also have a work within, and and it sometimes I use it, yeah, and because it has like this nice it's, it's a real world training, I would say, yeah. And it's very close to race action. And um I had and and and an athlete from the Netherlands, his name is Tim Sminger, he's an awesome marathon rider. And um he had broken his, I think it was his
00:17:36
Speaker
color bone and something on the hand. So really bad timing and especially with the hand and also something on the hip. So we couldn't we couldn't train and properly, especially not on the bike and running. Everything was complicated. So I developed a strengths program and we said we only had one race this season that we can do. And so we he had to crash in in, I think in June. And so, and we had a race in end of September or October. So we know, okay, this is the only shot we had.
00:18:04
Speaker
And um so and just we did the regular stuff, a lot of strength training, unilateral strength training, a lot of, um, um, um, um, volume, of course. And then, um, volume and what? Because if you couldn't really train or volume when he was like healed again, now yeah have with the volume and then we did the volume and then we did of course, he training, which I think is a great thing to do. I think this there's a lot of potential there.
00:18:32
Speaker
And so this is one thing we hadn't talked about it. So I love the meaning. and And we combined that with altitude. He slept in an altitude camp. And then we did the Hixum protocol.
00:18:45
Speaker
You threw everything at this guy, huh? I just... Because he was like... Yeah, I just... We did it in a clever way. Without any tricks. There are no ketones, stuff like that. There are no ketones after he trains, so only just the good stuff. Just the work. And then there was this championships, and of course I train a lot of other... One of the other riders, Hans Becking, a very good rider, and I said, Hans, if Tim attacks,
00:19:14
Speaker
And he get, he will, if he gets like a 20 meter gap, no one can follow him because he's writing about 6.7 Watts critical power. oh no wow And they were like.
00:19:26
Speaker
Hans Beggin about Aleman, who's also a big name. and And then there was ah one rider from Bismarck, Leaserbike, and one rider from Lotto Destiny, also Vulture Rites. And you know, and the Netherlands like completely fled, it's like a road race. And he attacked, and he had like the 20 meter gap. And he did his Hixson protocol, 30 minutes time trial. And no one could follow him. They just, they tried to catch him like with four people.
00:19:54
Speaker
and then Wout then said it's impossible. how is How is he managing that? And then Hans said, yeah. Bjorn already told me if he gets a gap, then no one can follow that. So and this is a really interesting thing. so But I have to come back to and ultra running. Can I ask you a question? so since just want Just one question on this. So so ah how far from the race did he did he do that that protocol, that the Higgs improvement? I am. So we actually and we did the peak yeah um when he just had his highest wattage in the 30 minutes.
00:20:25
Speaker
And we had that, I think, three, two and a half weeks before the race. And then we start tapering, out like, 60%. But I still wanted to have, like, the race shape. So we did one more time, try one more 20 minute test before the race. Which was quite ofn normal for him then, yeah? It was quite a normal day. And then we he did, like, a lot of warts, of course. And um yeah, that's how we did it. um And then so and this is, um and I also use that with this ultra runner. and But the interesting thing is, what which what I didn't realize is they run a lot of miles in the mountains and they it has such a little or way less impact than running on tama.
00:21:11
Speaker
So you can really increase the volume while running. Interesting. But there's a lot of downhill running too, right? So the downhill running has a massive masculine impact. It's not like, I also looked at this right there, but you can't use it really for that. And when when I said to her, we had that a few days ago, I said, okay, and And she wanted to do a long run. yeah or a long i mean like Long run is seven hours there. And it was like, ah yeah I don't have my bike in Munich because she also lives in Garmisch, which is about 100 kilometers away. She works in Munich. And I said, I need to run. I said, OK, no problem. so i do And she said, I do maybe do a two and a half, three hour run.
00:21:56
Speaker
which now for me is like, okay, no problem for her. I mean, like this is like spiking for her. But she had to do it on tarmac. And the next day she called me and said, it was horrible.
00:22:09
Speaker
it I really feel beaten up. yeah Is it because that she was doing all of her volume on soft surfaces? Yes, or what she mostly is doing her volume on soft surfaces.
00:22:20
Speaker
that's interesting and i also think them and Super shoes are also helping a lot and she didn't have super shoes on. It's funny because I work with some trail runners and I have, and I've trail run myself a little like at a very recreational level, but we, there's always a mix. Like we're always, we're always mixing up, you know, quality is done on, quality is done on, on tarmac or track. And then, and then volume is done on, um, on the soft surfaces of, of trail. Interesting.
00:22:47
Speaker
Yes. So this is also I'm just very new to that. yeah And but this was a huge learning curve for me to see how much volume they can sustain, because I looked at the training regimes, I said, never, ever, you can, no one can survive that. Yeah. But and actually, if they do a lot of this volume in in on soft surface, it seems they are pretty okay with that. It's protective. Interesting. The one thing that I was, this, this makes me think of a couple of things. I was just reading, um, uh, Alex Hutchinson. He's, uh, that's the Canadian journalist writes. yeah i know He was exactly a great book. Right. So he was, he just had an article where they were talking about muscle fiber types. So this made me think of it when you were talking about it. And, um, uh, you know, muscle fiber types are super interesting because they, they can.
00:23:34
Speaker
If you know what the type the type is, you can you can change training, right? There's evidence that the different things work for different types fiber types. But how do you know what the fiber type is? And so they were you know short of a biopsy. And we had we had somebody on the podcast. I remember they were talking about the the that like some, some weird procedure, like a proton um MRI, something like that. Like yeah, carnosine and the muscle. Like we had this guy on the podcast, you well, you know, three years ago, but even that's pretty, you know, pretty hard to get at. This is what Alex was saying. And, um, and so they were saying that, uh, what they look at is just vertical jump. Like what's your vertical? And if your vertical for males is like, I think the the value he, he quoted, um, hopefully I'm not misquoting him as 20 inches, 60 centimeters for everybody who's not American.
00:24:19
Speaker
Um, or more for, for male, you're yeah probably predominantly fast, which, and, uh, and I think it was 14 inches for females, which is, you know, whatever that is, 42 centimeters or so. Um, uh, yeah, so that, that's an interesting, that's an interesting way. Cause then if you can, if you can like phenotype the people and you could say you're a, you're B you're somewhere in the middle and then you can, you can adapt the training to it. Like you're the cadence work that you were talking about. That could be quite interesting.
00:24:45
Speaker
But that's actually what we do at Aerotuner. And this is actually one of the ideas about Villa Max here. Also, well, maybe we coined it in another term in like glycolytic power. So for me, it's the same. We talked about Villa Max meant plenty of times. So we I think our listeners... know and I just call it at glycolytic because everyone, if if they say, oh, Villa Max, we hate you here. But more it's just... I didn't realize it was so controversial, Bjรถrn, but okay. interesting interesting that like It's For me, it's the same. yeah and so it's If you have like the glycolytic power, then you have your phosphates, your creatine phosphide, and then you have your slow twitch stuff. yeah and and so it's If you're talking about the fast twitch stuff, you always need to think, okay, is it like super fast? Is it the X fibers? yeah and Or do we have like the the fastsis ah the more or less glycolytic fibers? yeah
00:25:38
Speaker
And then you can play around, especially with the glycolytic one. So the fast the super fast-twitch fibers, it's really interesting because you have some interesting phenotypes in and so in cycling. Sometimes you have riders with a very high creatine-phosphate content in their muscles, so in a lot of FTX fibers, so and which are like like the pure sprinters. so yes yeah And then and you have like and the other guys, which seem to be also sprinters.
00:26:08
Speaker
but they have like a high glycolytic power and ah they hardly reach the finish line. yeah So, and then you say, okay, we need, maybe you should need to lower and your glycolytic power to get the threshold a little bit up or maybe even raising the view to maxis is still, if it's still as possible, but then you may be makes them slower.
00:26:28
Speaker
ah So, and then you need to think, okay, how to, he will never be a good sprinter, for example, but he can be a very good guy to pull yeah sprint yeah yeah can be the It's interesting because you can choose bi-phenotype, who is the high end sprinter, who is the guy who's pulling the sprinter, like the high glycolytic guy. And so you need to really know, and I mean, like you can do that with a pretty simple test. yeah if if you do an and if you have a critical power curve and you know okay the super fast stuff is like maybe the creatine for smart stuff so you know if it's a super fast sprint or not then you have the glycolytic part and then you have like ah yeah that the threshold is coming up yeah
00:27:11
Speaker
And if we're talking about W prime or what's the other one, DFRC, and they have different models. But actually, it's most of this is explained by creatine phosphat and glycolytic power. So in my world. And and so and I think Bila Max and all the the ideas behind that, and or what we're doing in Aerotune is displaying that. yeah So I know I see the numbers. And I know, okay, this is a very good sprinter.
00:27:39
Speaker
and And because he has a very high creatine phosphat. And then you have some of these hybrid riders. some For example, if you think about um Peter Zagan. Peter Zagan was a very good time trailer. He was good at the mountains. And he was a very good, or he was a good sprinter. He could do actually do everything. Why is that?
00:28:06
Speaker
He had a high VO2 max, he had a low VO2 max, and he had a very high creatine phosphide content. That's what allowed him to sprint. He was really gifted. yeah So, and this is interesting. yeah And then you have other phenotypes with super high VO2 max numbers, probably today. yeah yeah And with ah still a pretty high glycolytic power.
00:28:27
Speaker
Yeah, because he he he can he can attack real well, and knew we we seen it we see it so so often, yeah. Yes. And hiss his he is really happy because that he is cycling this in in this time, and he had Inigo San Milanes, of course, because his high amount of carbohydrates really helps the people which with the high Vila Max or glycolytic power. And the trend is all- Feed the engine, right?
00:28:53
Speaker
Yes. And the trend is shifting. yeah No one is trying to decrease the VLAMX anymore. They always try to lift the VO to max and have like this very punchy, speedy riders. In road cycling, right? Let's qualify that. Actually, most of the cycling words. I also try that.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah, but of course there's always the ceiling and the ceiling is real to Max. Yes. and But i the the reason I qualify that is because like, you know, a lot of the listeners that we have are triathletes, especially the long course triathletes. So that's a little bit of a different focus there for those folks. Yeah. but I also think that if you think about Tom Skelton, for example, you know, Tom. I do. Yeah. Yeah. I worked with him for a couple of years. Yes. Yes. i met i know he I know he works with you now. It's because, they yeah, he was, I think I made that introduction also.
00:29:40
Speaker
Yes. And, um, so maybe it's, it's like, I think it's a real world example. Sorry, Tom. Tom, you're on the spot now, pal. I think, I don't think he's going to be too upset about it. He doesn't mind having himself talk. Um, so, um, I really pushed his, um, um, his cup intake and not focusing on the,
00:30:02
Speaker
on lowering the wheeler max. And he I think he finished his first Ironman now in with i mean like the preparation was quite ah interesting because and he had to take some medical stuff for his allergies and things like that. And we always had the problem was like ah the VO to Max didn't get up. It was really upsetting. and So I said, like, Tom, there's something really wrong. I never experienced that with an athlete.
00:30:30
Speaker
the work you put in, and you're only getting more efficient. And then I say, Okay, what are you taking? And then he gave me the list. And I looked at that. And there was like one thing I said, like, okay, and it can maybe and have an influence on the heart rate, lowering the the glycolytic part, so to say, we change that and immediately it just gain. I like, I was like 10% in view to max. And then I said, Okay, no time.
00:30:57
Speaker
We just work on super high carb intake and heat training to get the view to mix a little bit higher. And then you just fuel as crazy in the Ironman. Because yeah, I mean, a high VilaMax in an Ironman is bad if you are if you can't fuel it. If it's so high that you just cannot and take enough carbs, right?
00:31:17
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, yeah we we saw that, down I think, and and on Hawaii, the Norwegian method. Norwegian method, norwegian method yeah. That's some gaps. Yes, but there were some problems. But anyway, yeah, and also the limit there, and maybe if we can get that in into the system and and or more or less digest it. Do we really know if if we really take it up with the bloodstream? I'm not sure about that. yeah yeah I think glass and and did something about that. and But I'm not sure. I have to look that up. So and I think also with the high carb intake, we are still not really knowing what's going on. yeah We know that we can we can we can put it in our mouths and it doesn't make us sick. I think that's the only thing that we can say. And then there's some people with like 140 and above grams per hour.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, we are we um I also worked with some riders who are doing the Cape Epic, the famous mountain bike race, and also with winners and stuff like that. And we had problems with this high content, especially with fructose. yeah yes And this 1 to 0.8 ratio didn't work.
00:32:27
Speaker
yeah So they had like up and down spikes in and and blood sugar. And and so and we changed that. So what did you do? Yeah, we changed. and We took ah another maltodextrin. I think it was D12. So a lower one.
00:32:44
Speaker
And we took less, um, um, fructose. So, and if you look at the, well, the, the uptake, yeah, yeah we always say, yeah, the limit is like 60 grams of mild to, or maybe 70 per hour. So, and then I said, okay, just maybe we try to get a little bit higher. And I looked at, we calculate the s molarity.
00:33:05
Speaker
and I have a little program for that that I programmed and on my iPhone, which is very nice, just like with some slides. Very easy. Also the temperature and everything. I said, just ah give it a shot. Let's see. And actually it works. We won some stages at the yellow jersey and everything. So everything was fine. yeah And um it's like some, ah we see a lot of things in the lab, which is very, very good. and But and is it really working for every rider. yeah And also with the other things that they are maybe taking, yeah if they take Taurine for the heat and things like that. yeah so and yeah So this is actually what's going on. now That's very cool. That's does a lot of a lot of stuff. Yeah, we are in the weeds. buts And that's that's the ah kind of the beauty of the show is that
00:33:58
Speaker
yeah yeah You know, I can I can talk about whatever the heck I want to and I and you know when Andrew's here We can talk about whatever we want to and that's it's fun to get in the weeds that way so but coming back to We'll leave aerodynamics aside because I've got to get Sebastian back on the show because I have lots of questions for him. But on the, on the um let's say, the either the metabolic side or the coaching side, you've mentioned AI a few times. I know last time when we spoke, I think it was probably September or so or August, you were you were telling me about some some AI models that you were building for for coaching on Aerotune. Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:34:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's nearly finished. It's only like, yeah, the the details, yeah the details always sucking up a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. And 80% takes 20% of the time and then the final 20% sits famously. The funny thing is, we I mean, like last year, Sebastian and I, we already had a discussion. We said, okay, and in the January, 2024, we start with our training.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah. And, um, yeah, now we have November 24. So we developed a model to race view to max and, uh, maybe, um, and then shortly before a race, like six weeks before race, we started making them more efficient, the riders. And we, it was more or less like rule-based program learning thing. okay And, um,
00:35:21
Speaker
then we always have like and you know that the AI in the background which we made clever more clever now and so and we always said we see the development of the rider which is very nice the AI always but it actually works works pretty well with that if the athletes have good m heart rate and belts. I mean, this is the key. Reliable. So so you marry you're marrying power and heart rate too? Yes. yes okay we work with and and they I think there was a PhD work from this meet, a guy from um at the Netherlands. He looked for
00:35:57
Speaker
the connection between power and heart rate. So we use that model, but we trained it. yeah so And he also said in his work that and ah we have this drift and all these kinds of things. Yeah. how Do you do do look at heat though? Like like ah temperature? No, no not not now. yeah we We will include heat. And we also I also developed a model for that. We already included and altitude. Okay.
00:36:22
Speaker
ah which, of course, has a huge impact. of course and um And yeah, so we see we always have like, we we really can see or yeah, you can see if if you have like, the predicted heart rate for the power, and you have like the real heart rate, and you always say, okay, if something is going on, if the predicted heart rate is really not and like the heart rate you are recording now and you see ah a focus on glycolid and glycogen depletion you always see that. yeah and You have the predicted heart rate and after two and a half hours the rider if they don't eat and do base training they usually start bonking.
00:37:00
Speaker
And then you have this, m yeah, the heart rate is going up pretty simply. And you see that also if someone is underperforming, ah the heart rate is not going up, which usually also is like a sign of fatigue and glycogen depletion usually. So this is helping us a lot. And also for me, and for example, developing and um or what to do next. there if Is the training really working? Yes. Altitude training always says like it has a huge impact.
00:37:29
Speaker
on that. yeah You really see the view to max rising, for example, when Enrique Avencini became world champion was like one yeah and one year and so a few months ago, and mountain biking. and um And he had quite a rough time. And he called me um a year ago and said, Okay, I have one shot. And I want to really, and try to make the best out of it. And then it was like a secret project for us too, because nobody know that we, we, we both work together. And, uh, then he said, I really want to focus on that race and see what's going on. And then he became the world champion, which is nice. brief personality very Good proof of concept right there. And the funny thing is nobody knows. Yeah. And, but I, the constantly, the AI was running in the background and I really see, okay, now he's in the altitude camp. And then it's a second.
00:38:26
Speaker
it was going up and then I know, okay. ah we are on the safe side. And so this is how I use AI and to be like more informant informed about the adaptation that are going on. now Of course, AI is messed up with if you do heat training. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, like it can throw lots of lots of things can throw us off, especially if we're looking at heart rate. like And you mentioned a lot of them, like fatigue and or like even non-training stress, right? You're ah having a hard time or of course you know all sorts of things. Yes.
00:38:56
Speaker
and But Aerotune is grabbing all the data from Garmin, especially Garmin devices. yeah If you have like a watch or stuff like that, yeah and s of course they are not perfect. yeah ah But we get, for example, sleeping, maybe the HIV, if it's not like totally crap, and body weight and all these kind of things. So we have a lot of data that we can use.
00:39:16
Speaker
and And then and it's not included now, but it will be included. And then we actually see what's going on here. But already now we see and and ah and this is more or less your job as a coach yeah and to ask what's going on. If something is not happening, what do you expect?
00:39:35
Speaker
and For example, the the the ex example was Tom now. Usually you should be higher. What's going on? Based on based on the based on the work that he was doing. yes Yes. So you're not seeing the adaptation. That's really like, I mean, that's the coaches the coach the biggest thing for the coach is like, okay, you're doing the work and generally you would expect, you you put in X, you would expect to see Y. And when you don't see it, like being able to understand why that's happening, that's that would be tremendously useful. Yes, but now with the AI, you actually see if the adaptations are happen yeah happening. This is a nice thing. yeah That's amazing. yeah Yeah, because if the built-in mix is going up, it's pretty simple. More power,
00:40:16
Speaker
Lower heart rate. Lower heart rate. I totally get that. So let me ask you this question. So right now, if I understand correctly, this is running more in the background of the air. So I've got an annual subscription. You guys aren't sponsoring me in any way. This is just me being curious. And so I look at it. And then if I understand correctly, right now, what's happening is Aerotune is collecting the data that I'm uploading and running it in the background. But when you guys are live with the full or your next, let's say, release, what is it going to how as just ah Let's say I'm a self-coached athlete, which and you in my own case, I am a self-coached athlete. What am I going to see? What am I going to get out of the platform? Now now you already get, like if you do ah if you upload your workout, you already see the amounts of carbs, fats, and everything you see. You see the training stress and based on your muscle fiber distribution, which we kind of know from the um and test we did. The test, yeah.
00:41:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And then you get like, the it's not like a training stress score, but you have a stress score, depending on your fibers. And um and you see development is the this is VO2 makes going up or VO2 makes going down, all these kinds of things. so you So you already see that with a new update, which is coming,
00:41:32
Speaker
And I'm just making myself and I'm just working to be ah unemployed. That's actually it now. honestly So it's so funny that you say that because I was ah i was in a I was in a conversation with this is like nothing to do with coaching because this is just during my day job.
00:41:49
Speaker
in which yeah i'm ah I'm a manager, like a maintenance manager. But I was talking to some of my colleagues and they're like, well, what are you working towards? And I'm working towards being useless. yes I'm working towards the point where like the the people that are on my teams have everything they need and I can get out of their way and they can do the thing and be successful. And in coaching, I'm 100% with you. If I can make myself redundant to a specific athlete, then I've done my job.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yes. and I mean, like, ah pi athletes or people, and they want to talk. This is really a very, I think this is, I would say 50%, maybe even 60 to 70% of my job is talking to people. I mean, like writing a training plan, um of course, it's it's you really have to think about that. yeah But talking to to someone and maybe adjusting it,
00:42:41
Speaker
That's really the the key and ability that a coach needs to have. now mean Writing a training plan, everyone can now. If you have a little bit of knowledge, but adapting it to the needs of the athlete is really essential. So what we are doing is, we have like if you have a metabolic profile and we have a race,
00:43:03
Speaker
and We can really, or we we calculate what is the best and to raise the view to max, what kind of specific workouts, and what is the best to lower the VLAMX for a certain time. so And then the athletes get the training plan for um maybe three, four weeks, yeah maybe only two weeks, I'm not sure. And then we see the development because of the AI that is running in the background, and then the system is constantly adapting.
00:43:30
Speaker
yeah So it's changing future workouts to based on what it's seeing? Oh, very cool, OK. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then then and because of the AI, we're actually constantly running a power test because we always have the data. And um and and then we we develop the training. So this is the idea. We we want to do that for cycling and running.
00:43:52
Speaker
So I've got a question just to clarify, sorry to interrupt. So um ah you you just said that you're constantly evolving the you know the understanding of what the athlete's physiology is doing. And so if I understand correctly, because you're looking at both power and heart rate, you actually don't need to do maximal efforts in order to update the model. Is that right? Yes.
00:44:10
Speaker
Yes, because that Delta in the change in the the relative power to heart rate ratio is is what's telling you which is super interesting because You know, there's like there's other there's other platforms out there right now I'm using and sorry to interrupt like I said, um I'm using exert with another Canadian company and they're really really cool Yeah, and it's very like a really robust mathematical model. And when you were talking about creatine phosphate, glycolytic power and like threshold, that's their model, right? They're looking at peak power, um like high intensity energy, which is glycolytic power, call it what you want, and then and then threshold power. So that's it's it's it's similar things, but in order to reset your like
00:44:46
Speaker
Like train your your metabolic, signature they don't call them metabolic. their Your fitness signature, you need to do maximal efforts. Like you need to break one of those numbers, either like a big sprint or a big and anaerobic effort, glycolytic effort, or a big, you know, kind of threshold effort in order to reset those that that signature. So it's interesting to see, and I'm a fan of it, obviously, because I don't like maximal efforts.
00:45:09
Speaker
to to to be able to have the the AI figure it out without doing that. But you don't get rid of testing. out You always have to do some testing. out and and I mean, like every usually, you should do that every eight yeah every eight weeks. You should test yourself. I'm so overdue. I've got to get on my own. But also, the high-intensity worksout our workouts are also working pretty well for and and yeah seeing the development of the yeah and metabolic blueprint, so to say. yeah so and This is ah actually the thing we are really working on. and really Very close, I say that now, but it will still take a month. and ah You know what? we were um I think ah Bjorn, I think this this episode, will we'll release it after we release like the product that we were working on. and I know you and I have talked about it already. so you you you don't have to You don't have to sell it to me. I know all the hiccups that you go through when you're trying to Bring something to market and make sure that it's good and you know, and yeah, it's it's not a it's not a straightforward path Yeah, but then and and we as you know us ah it will be of course a beta version Yes, and and then it's I think everyone who has a power months It's of course for free. Yeah, and we will of course include that into the power months So that the platform is always you pay one price and it's you get everything. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, that's what I love a about you guys one of the things yeah
00:46:34
Speaker
ah we actually we Maybe we could make way more money, but for us it's ah more like this. Yeah, democratic approach, I would say. yeah of Having a lot of money is, of course, nice. But yes and if you see who has people who are having a lot of money are usually the mean guys. yeah yeah And not super happy, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Starting as ah the heroes of the world and then becoming major villains. Yes, that's true. I think we it's it's not hard to think of some of those some of those people right now. Living in a volcano. and I don't know what's coming next. I remember you describing it maybe the first time we spoke as the ah as the metal approach to to to coaching and and sports technology, which I really appreciate. I still think of that um that that way of thinking about it. Keep it metal.
00:47:27
Speaker
Yeah, but it's fun. We are doing it. Of course, we want to do our living ah and earn our living. and And it's more or less a project that maybe we earn so much money that, yeah, but that I don't have to work so much, yeah and especially when I'm getting older. and But yeah, it still should.
00:47:50
Speaker
it's It should be fun. um there If you have a lot, and then a lot of things have you and this is like the old and Fight Club approach. So and have less things around you. and Everything is fine. yeah yeah Oh, that's awesome. um You're on great conversation. I think that's a great episode back. um if Is there anything else you want to talk about? I think i'm I'm pretty good. I think it was a really fun discussion for me. it's always It's always a treat to just have a chat with you. And I think we got some really interesting material in there as well. It was it was definitely unstructured. like We didn't you know didn't follow it no and to follow, but I think it was a really... yeah and A few days ago, I have to put that in. and i We also have the German podcast.
00:48:34
Speaker
and um i An Aerotune podcast? Yes, an Aerotune podcast. We just do a podcast on what's going on in in the and in the training world, so to say. And for now, it was more like um how to do like the offseason and how to rebuild. What about strength training, all these kind of things.
00:48:59
Speaker
So and every we have like an every special episode. And and the last time I really got like, and I wouldn't say bored, but like, ah, let's mix it a little bit up. yeah and yeah and it's in So the most of the time, ah people here, and what are you doing when you're writing base training? yeah Easy running, stuff like that. You're listening to maybe podcast or music. yeah And then I remember you had this,
00:49:25
Speaker
nice podcast with this English guy. yeah His name was Kostas Karogorgas or something like that. car georges yes He had a a very Greek name, but a very English accent. He was london guy was such a such such a good guy to talk to. here His interview was really interesting. I loved that i love the yeah recording. i know and and I listened to that and more or less, like i i wouldn't I couldn't copy that. but and so We talked about music yeah because um I think it's It can be really in a boost for training and everyone. Yeah, it's performance enhancing. I think that it really is. Yeah. And the idea came because I did a playlist for runoffs one of my riders, Mika Kruger, Olympic champion. You you offer a really like comprehensive service there, Bjorn.
00:50:14
Speaker
Yes. You write coaching DJ at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. So I did this playlist. Yeah. Because I love like making this thing. I'm still thinking about the book from Nick Hornby, High Fidelity, which is also a nice movie. isn't So I thought about, okay, I do this playlist for her. And it was, I i tried to figure out and what is the journey yeah of like going from Cologne to Paris.
00:50:40
Speaker
looking for a music, like stuff like Radiohead, everything at its right place, Portishead, Kraftwerk, Tranz, or Hooper Express, all this kind of very nice music and building it up for three days. yeah and so And then I thought, okay, we really need to do a podcast about music. And then I remembered, you did that, and I listened to that. And it was really fun. And and my my my host, ah or our but what we do it together now, he's called Nicholas.
00:51:08
Speaker
And he was really he was really happy about that because it was it's such a great thing to talk about music and it's really performance enhancing. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I remember recording that we've had a few, you know, professors on the, on the podcast. We had, uh, we had this guy, we had, um, uh, I'm blanking on the name, the, the, the gentleman out of, uh, university of Utah who did all that cadence research, um, crank length guy. yes Yes. Forget him. Anyway, also really good interview. So we had a few, few professors, but this guy, he came on the show and he delivered a lecture. Like it was just, I didn't have to prompt him. There was just, it wasn't, it wasn't so much of an interview. It was just, he was just.
00:51:50
Speaker
you know, delivering the knowledge that he had. And it was a, it was a really interesting experience of the podcast. It was a singular experience for me because it was just like sitting in a lecture hall. Yeah. It was amazing. I mean, like, he started with like talking, like growing up in London, hearing this Bob Marley or whatever. It's like, okay, you know, I'm in and I listen to him. It was a great time. Really watch him. It's, it's fun.
00:52:14
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. i we were We totally stumbled on them. Yeah, it was ah it was a good catch. that's Again, and that's kind of to bring it back to the beginning of our conversation. um and so it's That's what's fun about making podcasts, right? Is you get to talk to smart people. And that's why we brought this one back because we i mean we we launched ah you know our bottle, but also it's it was something I really miss doing. I kind of ran out of time to do it and the commitment to do it once a week was a bit much, but it's all mad. I really miss having these conversations.
00:52:43
Speaker
Great. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I um i think we can, bring yeah, like I said, I think we can probably wrap it. but Thanks a lot. Yeah, really nice chatting with you again.
00:52:57
Speaker
Let's talk about you know your forest your forest walks and all the the advice you you give your your listeners on your forest walks. I ah really look forward to those ah those posts on Instagram, by the way. They're really quite quite nice to to to watch and listen to. It's a very, I don't know, it's ah it's a setting that you're in that that that is very conducive to a um that's a a calm and measured conversation on this kind of stuff.
00:53:23
Speaker
So you got at least one fan for those. ah Plus one at the yard.