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Navigating Criticism with Courage with Mark McCully
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Leadership is easy when everyone agrees. But the real test comes when the voices get loud, opinions fracture and every decision is met with scrutiny.
Mark McCully, CEO of the American Angus Association, joins The Cultivating Leaders Podcast to share how he navigates criticism, conflict, and controversy while staying true to his mission and values. From managing 22,000 members with competing priorities to weathering social media storms and high-stakes industry debates, Mark offers a candid look at what steady, humble leadership requires today.
Mark gets real about:
- Leading through criticism: why thick skin, empathy and intent matter more than popularity
- Communicating in conflict: how to listen, humanize the conversation and disagree without division
- Staying grounded through chaos: habits that keep leaders mission-focused in turbulent seasons
This episode will challenge you to rethink how you respond when pressure rises and how humility and clarity can move people farther than force.
Want to hear more from Mark? Check out her blog here!
Connect with Mark
- Connect on LinkedIn
- Follow the American Angus Association on Instagram
- Follow the American Angus Association on LinkedIn
- Visit their website
Connect with AFA
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- Like us on Facebook
- Follow us on TikTok
- Visit our Website
About The Cultivating Leaders Podcast
Real stories. Practical advice. Tangible growth. Join The Cultivating Leaders Podcast, brought to you by Agriculture Future of America, as we explore what it takes to lead in food, agriculture, and beyond. Whether you’re just starting out or leading at the highest level, this podcast is your go-to resource for leadership that matters. Listen now and start cultivating your leadership journey.
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Transcript
Handling Criticism and Introduction to Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Was the decision made? Is it the right decision? Was it made for the right reasons? you know Is there anything i can learn from the criticism? ah Try not to take it personally, try to learn from it and move forward.
00:00:18
Speaker
Welcome to the Cultivating Leaders podcast, where we get inside the minds of leaders to harvest great ideas and lessons that help you grow as a difference maker in food and agriculture. I'm your host and curiosity captain, Nicole Ersing.
00:00:31
Speaker
Today's guest leads one of the most recognizable and influential organizations in the beef business, one that touches every part of the supply chain from genetics and marketing to education and research.
00:00:42
Speaker
Mark McCauley is the Chief Executive Officer of the American Angus Association. His career has spanned every corner of the supply chain, from genetics to retail, giving him a unique perspective on what it takes to keep the beef industry relevant, resilient, and innovative.
00:00:56
Speaker
Whether he's talking about sustainability, efficiency, or the next generation of cattle producers, Mark brings a clear, confident vision for where the beef industry can go. Mark, welcome to the pod. Thanks for having me, Nicole.
00:01:09
Speaker
Curiosity Captain, I like that title. Yes, i I like it too.
Mark McCauley's Background and Career Journey
00:01:14
Speaker
Thanks. I get to ask all the fun questions. So I am so excited to have you here. I know I say this often for anyone who listens to every episode of our podcast, but I'm very excited about this guest and having you specifically because I have had the pleasure of getting to work with you and for you. And I'm For anyone who is listening, a piece maybe I'll add to your bio from a personal standpoint is one of the best leaders that I have gotten to work with it and for. So very excited for our conversation today. Thank you. That means the world.
00:01:43
Speaker
Well, it's true. So Mark, ah what did I miss from your very short bio that I read? What's something that maybe people wouldn't see on your LinkedIn or in in what I shared about your career journey?
00:01:53
Speaker
I always introduce myself, I'm an Illinois farm kid, you know, and never went to CEO school. You know, that's I say that a lot to my team. ah You know, i' I'm trained as an animal scientist. I love the cattle industry. i always wanted to be in the cattle industry and just had the great opportunity to to continue to to be in some different positions of of leadership along the way and and to to where I am today. But again, this was never the the grand plan. It was just Illinois farm kid, loved FFA, loved livestock judging.
00:02:22
Speaker
just loved the cattle industry and opportunities presented themselves along the way. So what was the grand plan? I don't know there was a grand plan. I would have graduated high school in the late 80s at a time the ag economy was not a ah time when parents were encouraging their kids to come back to farms, right? so and And we were a small, very small outfit. And so the grand plan was I just wanted to go work someplace and figure out something in cattle. And probably like a lot of kids, I started with like, well, I'll be a vet, that I can do that.
00:02:51
Speaker
Because I didn't probably know what all the career opportunities were. and then And then just, you know, my eyes got opened and, and you know, we took off on this adventure. So looking back, Mark, I know you've gotten to do a lot of different roles in the beef industry.
00:03:07
Speaker
What's a defining moment that you feel like shaped either your career trajectory or the way that you lead today? you know i think You know, I think back on some of the early roles is, you know I don't know if there was, I can't think of necessarily a a a one defining moment. I think being asked to step into roles when I didn't think I was ready and and i I wasn't ready, um you know, I think that's probably one of those takeaways that I've always tried to remind myself of. I don't know I've ever been ready for a position I've been asked to be to step into. And and yet i've I've just always had
00:03:43
Speaker
such incredible mentors around me. I've i've had people around that weren't gonna allow me to to fail. i think about some of those big, big moments when you know you're asked to take a promotion or lead a team or, i mean, I think I was like two weeks into my role at Certified Angus Beef and I got to go to a corporate review with IBP. I was director of packing. I should have never been director of packing. I just had a couple of people that thought I could do a good job and it was a different time.
00:04:12
Speaker
you know, probably at Certified Angus Beef where they're willing to, ah here's a, you know, here's a guy that knows a little about animal science, knows a little about meat science. You can be director of packing. I would never get hired today with that, with that resume. But I look back on those now, of wow, those were
Leadership Insights and Systems Thinking
00:04:27
Speaker
just just incredible opportunities and and maybe defining moments, I guess, because I knew I had people that that were there to make sure I was, I wasn't going to fail.
00:04:36
Speaker
As you think about working, like packing more end user facing, obviously today your organization is, the American Nang Association is genetics focused and there's media aspects of it.
00:04:49
Speaker
What do you think as you've worked across those that have given you ah unique perspective on how this industry really works? You know, I always say I started at certified Angus beef because I really think that's where, you know, my eyes were probably opened the most of maybe where I got exposed to the most things that I didn't know.
00:05:08
Speaker
um You know, largely up to that point, I had worked in academia, i worked ah for ah a livestock marketing cooperative, all on the production, cattle production side. So I was clearly I was learning things.
00:05:20
Speaker
But i think when I got to Certified Angus Beef, I knew there was steak in a restaurant, but I really didn't know how it got from the packing plant to the restaurant or the grocery store. And and I ah just got my eyes open to what I've found to be just a fascinating supply chain. And I think that has shaped the way I look at the beef industry today.
00:05:40
Speaker
of, you know I believe you gotta think, like start with the end in mind, right? Consumer first, we gotta make sure we have a product that the that the consumer trusts and wants at the end. And then and then we gotta have this ah successful supply chain um that allows that that product to get to the consumer and every segment along the way has to be successful. So I think about it more as a system maybe, and and ah and ah and a complete process that has to happen for that consumer to love our product in the end.
00:06:10
Speaker
So that's really interesting that you describe it as a system because one of the things that AFA does is really teaching systems thinking. In your journey, it sounds like that's something you had to learn.
00:06:22
Speaker
And how did you develop that? And I think, and sorry, this is like me, you know me, three-part question here. How does that apply to the role that you're in today? And that being able to think about things more holistically across an entire system, whether that's a supply chain or the depth of the organization that you lead today?
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, and and maybe it's because ive I've been very curious about all the different segments. And so that's maybe naturally something that I've pursued because, you know, back to, i always say, if I had it to do over again, I probably would have taken some classes around even just basic business classes or um any type of system. I didn't really have that technical training. I i was technically trained as an animal scientist, a ruminant nutritionist, right?
00:07:05
Speaker
And so, i and I think that's in the beef industry, that's an area we can all get better is is stepping back from our individual segment. We all tend to be pretty passionate about the piece, the piece that we know and and the piece that we are maybe experts in. And and and so just trying to think about it.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I always said, Angus has given me this incredible opportunity on any given day to touch any segment of the supply chain. I don't work as as closely today in certified Angus beef as I once did, but but still have involvement there all the way to the what the chefs think of our product. to you know I do work more closely dayto day to day on the genetics and the genomics. and and and so Just having that that vantage point that I have today is is fun.
00:07:56
Speaker
And and it it probably fuels that that wonder and curiosity I have around, you know, how do we how do we make it better? Yeah, yeah. So I think I failed to do this because obviously all of us on this call, including producer Savannah, have a background in Angus. But for those listeners who maybe don't have a clear understanding of the American Angus Association, it is it's a breed association, but it's a lot more. Can you provide a scope of of everything that that Angus does and touches? Yeah.
00:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a good clarification. And I do tend to skip over that myself. And, you know, the association is for those that understand traditional breed associations, they're formed to keep the the herd book and the breed registry of of Angus cattle here in the U.S. And since that was formed 140 some years ago,
00:08:42
Speaker
The organization has grown. We're technically five companies now. We're the parent company of the American Angus Association. And then we have four wholly owned subsidiary companies, the certified Angus beef brand that was founded back in 1978. That operates as a separate but wholly owned ah subsidiary company.
00:08:59
Speaker
Angus Media is our is our media company. We run a couple magazines. We run sale book production, website, digital marketing and things for breeders and corporate partners. That's a separate a standalone company. It's actually a for-profit company.
00:09:14
Speaker
We run a ah foundation that supports youth education and research. that's That's what you would think of as your typical nonprofit, a charitable organization. and And the newest of our entities is Angus Genetics Incorporated. We operate as AGI, and we do genetic evaluation and genomic work, not only for the American Angus Association, but for a number of other breed associations, as well as of Angus societies and associations ah around the
Decision-Making and Handling Criticism
00:09:40
Speaker
world. So five companies in in total, all under the parent of the American Angus Association. So my role is is CEO of the American Angus Association. And then I get to serve as the vice chairman of each of those entities as well.
00:09:54
Speaker
Not a small job by any means. It's fun. Yeah. Diversity and in and what a day-to-day looks like for sure. So speaking to that, I mean, thinking about leading at that level, there's a lot of weight that comes with it. There's pressure, there's tradition in terms of it. When you think about the scope of your role, what are the pressures or things that are on your mind day to day?
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, well, you know, first and foremost, we we are ah breed association with members and we have about 22,000 members. So I think about the members every day, right?
00:10:29
Speaker
I try to think about what is important to them today. And and then I think we we always, as an organization, the word we use is relevant. We want to make sure we are a relevant organization.
00:10:42
Speaker
organization to them today? How do we make sure we're relevant in five or 10 years from now? And and that's probably the the piece that keeps me up at night, right, of trying to anticipate where do we need to be?
00:10:56
Speaker
we're We're so fortunate today, the position we sit in is because we had leaders and board input and member input through this process that thought about, we need a branded beef program, right? That was pretty novel and innovative thinking in 1978, or we need a genetics company, or we need a media company, or we need to innovate in this particular area or bring value in this particular area.
00:11:18
Speaker
and And a lot of it had to do with anticipating what what the need was gonna be, you know, five and 10 years down the road. and so that That's where i I try to stay strategic and and try to think about.
00:11:31
Speaker
But at the end of the day, I semi-joke that my job is head of the complaint department because when there is a concern from a member and they don't feel they their association is where they want it to be or need it to be, they tend to not be shy about picking up the phone. And and I want to be that leader, leader.
00:11:50
Speaker
That person that I give my cell phone out, it's on my business card and people can call. And and I want to be very, very accessible. And I work hard at being accessible. Yeah. So talk about there's 22,000 members. That's a lot of people to keep happy. You also have several staff as well. So how do you approach leadership in a space where where people care so deeply about what they do and are very passionate about it, but maybe not always passionate in the same direction?
00:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got to you got to get comfortable with you're not going to make everybody happy all the time, right? Whether you're leading a team of three or 300 hundred or a membership of 22,000, you know, you're always going to have folks that are going to, you know, disagree to some level. I think...
00:12:38
Speaker
I try to always focus on let's let's get to the intent. Can we align that the intent of what we're trying to do? is Can we get agreeance there? right and and And then we can debate and have good, solid, healthy, fruitful debate around the best way to carry out and get to to that and to to fulfill that intent.
00:13:00
Speaker
But in in this day and age, unfortunately, sometimes it's it's even hard to communicate ah consistently what the intent is. Things can be misconstrued. So you're not always going to keep everybody happy. i think we try to lead, and I personally try to lead with authenticity.
00:13:17
Speaker
Be humble, acknowledge you don't know everything. Sure as heck. have more to to learn and and and you're open to listen, open to feedback and be very, very real about what our intent is, what who we're operating for and and whose best interests we're looking out for.
00:13:33
Speaker
So how do you make decisions in such a diverse way? Like you can have members who are passionate about something, staff that's passionate about it, differing ideas. And yet at the end of the day, like Angus is making decisions for a large sector of of the industry, honestly. So in in that scenario where you, you know, are dealing with complaints and and passionate people, how do you make decisions?
00:13:58
Speaker
I mean, it starts with listening. i mean, you you need to truly listen to what people are are trying to tell you. And that's not as easy as as it sounds, right? Because you got to listen through at times some, what are they really saying? Are there some true motives? Are there some ulterior motives, right? So really trying to listen.
00:14:20
Speaker
And then I think it's always important to make sure that you've got ah you've got a lot of clarity ah mission whether it's your strategic plan, your core objectives, if you don't have clarity around that and and able to use that as a grid to look at decisions, um youre it's things are going to get even harder, right? Because you'll have two people making very compelling points which one is most accurate and and best fits what your strategic intent is and and what your mission is. and And that kind of boils it down, making it sound simple. it's It's not by any means. I mean, it is, you know, I come back to intent, you know, ultimately you try to get folks back to center around what we're trying to accomplish, whether that's working with staff.
00:15:06
Speaker
and then And then ultimately, as if you've listened well and and been authentic and, and you know you there's gonna be times where decisions are gonna need to be made, where somebody's likely not gonna get their way or or land on the other side of a decision.
00:15:25
Speaker
And then you've gotta work at, okay, you know I try to avoid this agree to disagree. I think that's ah actually a terrible idea because when we agree to disagree, we're still debating, right? Because tomorrow we're probably back to debating.
00:15:39
Speaker
we We try to get to disagree and commit, right? can we Can we disagree but commit to this direction and commit to making this work? It's easier to said than done with a team of ah of employees, right? Where you have some level of of influence, like, okay, this is still the job, right?
00:15:59
Speaker
When you have members, getting them to disagree and commit is is harder, but I think that's the goal, right? That's the goal. So when you look at at doing that, I think that requires a very specific skill set of a communicator and also probably someone who is able to have some thick skin.
00:16:19
Speaker
What have you learned about communicating through some of these crucial conversations where where people passionately disagree with either a direction that the association is going or even a decision with staff?
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you you got to, I do tend to want to come back to, you know, you get back to your true center, your true north, your true, right? One, did you make the right decision? I mean, i think there's times where you've got criticism coming. and And I think as a leader, one of the hardest things times is to swallow some pride and say, you know what?
00:16:54
Speaker
I missed this one, you know, and we're going to back up or we're going to do this different. So, you know, first and foremost, if if you've got criticism coming, is it is it legit? and And do you need to reverse course or or modify course, right?
00:17:11
Speaker
So I think you as a leader, you never want to be too scared to do that. I think at times that's the absolute best decision. You know, other times you've you've just got to you know, you got to listen to the criticism.
00:17:26
Speaker
You try not to take it personal. And I say try because these are these are these are things that are not easy. As you know, Nicole, we've been in a ah situation where we had a ah research rant that we accepted into our foundation from the Bezos Earth Fund.
00:17:42
Speaker
And i think anytime we get into this sustainability space, it can be very, very polarizing. And there's folks that that have some very, very strong feelings about any involvement in that space. And i and you have to respect that, right? You have to reach respect and you have to listen to that and and make sure that as best you can, those people feel respected, that you're not, you know,
00:18:06
Speaker
always am i reminded, you can't argue with somebody's feeling. That's how they feel, right? So you can't tell them that they're wrong and they can't feel that way. Well, that that's that's that's that's not gonna be a very productive discussion for you. So gotta acknowledge that. You you gotta to be an empathetic leader, right? At that point, you gotta you gotta to show empathy. You gotta be sincere, right? You can't just give it lip service because that'll be that'll be seen through very, very quickly.
00:18:34
Speaker
but But then you've got yeah again get back get back to, listening to what the concerns are. you know One of the things in the space of criticism, I guess, one of my rules that I try to live by is don't ever take criticism from somebody I wouldn't ask advice of.
00:18:51
Speaker
And so if criticism is coming from somebody that I don't believe maybe has a big enough perspective on the topic, maybe from someone that I don't believe has the best of intentions or motivations or something other than maybe what they're portraying them to be.
00:19:10
Speaker
then then it makes it a little easier to dismiss that criticism, right, and and and set it aside. um A little easier. I mean, I can tell you, as somebody, you know, over the last few months, it's you know, and social media has added this whole new world of criticism.
00:19:28
Speaker
The ability to be, um you know, anonymously criticize people um without, with very little or or no knowledge of a situation and and personally attack their integrity, personally attack their intent.
00:19:43
Speaker
um That's hard. I can i can tell you that's that's hard stuff to work through. But... It's, um you gotta come back to, you know was the decision made?
00:19:54
Speaker
Is it the right decision? Was it made for the right reasons? You know, is there anything i can learn from the criticism? ah Try not to take it personally, try to learn from it and move forward.
Leadership Challenges and Team Building
00:20:05
Speaker
You know, and the other thing I think what I've also found the difference in if you can get away from social media, And have a conversation with someone, either just on the phone or for sure in person, it's a whole different scenario, right? um People are quite brave behind a keyboard and that adds a whole new wrinkle that you got to sort through.
00:20:28
Speaker
Well, I think too, a lot of times in especially online criticism, it takes away some of the humanity of it. And it seems that you your approach is very like it brings the human aspect back into things. Like if this is really how you feel, let's have a conversation. And you talked at the beginning of this about like you give out your cell phone number, you respond to some of these people.
00:20:49
Speaker
You know, it reminds me of ah of an early conversation i I had with someone in this in this controversy we had with the Bezos Earth funding. And this person was mad and they kept saying, they, they, they.
00:21:02
Speaker
And I finally pushed, I said, who is they? I don't know who that they is. Are you talking about me? Well, no, I don't mean you. I mean they. And it it was a reminder to your to your point that it's easy to be angry at a non-human thing, right? A corporation, a company, a they that I really don't know who they are. But...
00:21:24
Speaker
you know But when you start human, this was somebody I've known for a long time. It's like, no, this is Mark you're talking to. and it and it was And it changed the discussion, right? It changed the discussion. And so as as vulnerable as you can be with that, as authentic and transparent and available as you can be through those things, I found that to be very productive and and you can you can can make progress.
00:21:50
Speaker
Is it worth all the time you spend on the phone with people dealing with with feedback? Yeah. I don't know there's an alternative. you know i Is it worth it? i you know There was conversations I got done with where I thought, okay, yeah, we I learned. i don't want to make it sound like I moved them to my side you know or or of ah of an issue, right? But it's like, okay, I think we both left with a bigger perspective than we went into the conversation. That's success.
00:22:16
Speaker
I've had those conversations where i you left the conversation and I don't know that any progress was made of perspective building and and that's okay too. That's just gonna happen. It sounds like though to me, Mark, that it's at least worth it to you to try.
00:22:30
Speaker
Have to try. i'll I'll call anybody. I mean, I won't engage on social media, but I will take a person, a person makes a comment, I'll pick up the phone and call them. And and i've i've I've called some of my harshest critics.
00:22:45
Speaker
It's amazing how those conversations go sometimes. They tend to have a little different tone to them when you get them on the phone. like You talked a little bit about filtering, some of the criticism too. I've heard that advice before. If if it's not someone you would you would ask for advice, ah then...
00:23:00
Speaker
It creates a good filter for criticism. But what I really liked that you said, too, was it made me think about if it's not someone you would have on your personal board of directors or if it's not someone who has a piece of influence in your life, makes it easy to say, like, okay, that one maybe I can set aside.
00:23:16
Speaker
How do you deal with the, like, internal process of it because some of this is like there's always an emotional piece I feel like to processing criticism whether whether it's constructive and it's intended as a gift or or not.
00:23:31
Speaker
I'm probably not the the person to ask because I don't think I do very good at it. and And I'd like to think it comes from a place that I care. i care about this organization. I care about the responsibility that I know I'm i'm tasked with.
00:23:46
Speaker
You know me, Nicole. I like harmony. i like consensus. That's my hardwiring, right? And when you don't have it, And it's hard, right? Because that's that's ultimately what you that's what you want.
00:23:59
Speaker
You know, you got to work through it. You got to remind yourself that, you know, you come back to your your core, you know, all of the things that we've talked about, what the intent is, you know, you know the facts.
00:24:11
Speaker
You know, the criticism's hard, but it it it will come. and And I think that's, you know, as ah as leaders find pretty quickly, the the criticism, you know, I think they always say that you should be at the back of the line for the praise and the front of the line for the criticism, right? And that's just the job description. and And if someone doesn't like that job description, leadership's going to be really, really hard because it ah it tends to come with it, you know, if done well, I think if done well.
00:24:41
Speaker
that That's a good add-on to it. Agreed. Agreed. So you've led teams that have experienced massive success. And like we've talked about, also, I think we can fairly say massive criticism or intense scrutiny is maybe what we'll we'll position it as. But how do you keep morale and mission steady through both of those things? Because it's one thing when when you're at the top and you're so at the front of the line and saying, yes, give me the criticism. It's more challenging, I think, it when it's your team members team you know, the people that you lead?
00:25:11
Speaker
Well, I think first you got to stay up yourself as a leader. And there was days as we were going through, my team would tell you that there was days I was better than others. There was days where if you let some of the criticism get to you, well, I can't do that. You can't do that as a leader.
00:25:27
Speaker
That's where you got to be stronger. and And you yourself have to be upbeat and positive and strong and optimistic first, right? You And then you you've got to work at making sure your team feels the same. They feel supported, right? they yeah They're reminded of all of the things, right? The intent, what we're doing is right, the support we have, right?
00:25:49
Speaker
and And continue to to make sure that, you know, as a leader, you just just, you know, my approach is you got to step out and take as many of the arrows and the bullets as you as you can yourself and to keep them away from your team.
00:26:03
Speaker
That's your job. but also know that a good team, a team that cares, even will see their leader doing that and know that I can be rough on morale. So it's just a constant reminder, checking in with people, right? Knowing where they're at, knowing, don't assume.
00:26:19
Speaker
You'll have some folks that will obviously, they'll be visibly upset and that that's easy to know. You'll have some others that look just, you know, solid as a rock, but you got to check in with them too and and make sure that you truly know where they're at and what they're feeling because they just may be putting up a good front and they need support it and they need encouraged and they need propped up.
00:26:40
Speaker
Love that. How do you balance that with there's a lot of things to do in the job and there's the job itself of things have to get done and then also finding the time to pulse check that, especially across a large organization?
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, for me, I have to be very intentional at that. I'm a i'm a big, don't know if you've talked about working genius and Patrick Lencioni's working genius. We've talked about it a little bit. We're about to have ah on this season in a later episode, we'll have a working genius consultant and expert on.
00:27:11
Speaker
awesome So yeah, give us a preview. I'm a big fan. I'm a big, big fan. So the term is galvanize, right? that is a That is a genius or a gift that many people have that I do not have.
00:27:24
Speaker
um I wish I had, right? and And so I know as a leader, I've got to invest in spending time galvanizing. That's the term, right? And and which is I think doing at times, it's like making sure folks are are are centered and and energized around the idea that are encouraged and supported.
00:27:44
Speaker
My natural tendency is, well, we said we were gonna do it. What what what else? Let's go, let's just do it, right? You know? um making sure that I'm doing and spending enough time galvanizing is something just, and and because it's my, as you're familiar with, it's my frustration. i don't do it well, um but i know i have to I know I have to work at it and and try.
00:28:07
Speaker
And, or I need to make sure that we have team members, of which we do, that are galvanizers, that that is their working, gene that is their their gift, right? And so you make sure you put them in a position where they're well-informed and they're positioned to be able to go out and and help you as a leader.
00:28:26
Speaker
Which again, what but I hope all good leaders do is you identify those things that you're not good at and and you and you build a team around you that that can help and and support and and compensate for where you're not good.
Staying Energized and the Importance of Networking
00:28:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're wonder, right? What's your other genius? I'm wonder and invention. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm dangerous. Yeah, I'm dangerous because I can stay at 60,000 feet for a long time and it's fun.
00:28:55
Speaker
that's Well, that's a good genius though for where you're at too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for anyone who is listening, Working Genius is a personality kind of profile system that that tells you what you're naturally energized by. It's a work that that gives you energy and fulfillment and the work that drains you. And so even though, Mark, you say maybe you're not ah you're not a good galvanizer, it's probably more that galvanizing drains you than it's that you're not good at Well, and i I do try. i think, it yeah, it drains your cup, right? I can tell a day of spent galvanizing is a day I'm exhausted.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah, i don't have much left. Yes, yes. How do you keep the tank full? Whether it's, you know, the hard things that you're up against, dealing with criticism like we talked about, or those days where, for me, it's tenacity days when I have spent a ton of time in tenacity, I'm exhausted, right So how do you how do you fill your energy and keep your cup full, especially in a job that can be incredibly draining all the time?
00:29:54
Speaker
I don't have any hobbies, so that's bad. I know that's bad. um but when And I say that, you know me, I love my work. I mean, that's that's I think what I'm very, very fortunate about of is i I do love to work. And so where I find myself when I know I need a charge is let's go go work on those things that are wonder and invention, right? More things that are bigger picture or pick up the phone and talk to and call somebody that I know is gonna be a bigger, that wants to also be a bigger picture and have that discussion with me, right? um
00:30:31
Speaker
you know, I will find myself, i if I've been in the office too much, my wife picks up on this, if I've been in the office too much, I i will start, I need to get out. I need to get out and and be out and be with be with members, be out in the country, be on a tour of...
00:30:50
Speaker
You know, just came back from Montana Angus, well, three different tours. And mike mike my cup is full right now because I've had the opportunity to to get out and and and and, again, maybe get out of that office setting for a while and get out of, you know,
00:31:06
Speaker
but I wasn't spending a lot of WI time. i was i was and so It's knowing yourself, right being honest with yourself um and knowing those things that that um you know be a having people that are honest with you and will tell you when, hey, um you you need to you need to recharge a little bit. You're not your best version of yourself right now and and you need to go invest and and get yourself back there.
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I can totally relate to that too. I think too, even when you talk about like getting out in, in cow country, like it kind of probably grounds you back into the reason why you do some of the work yeah that sucks every day, you know, why why you got into this.
00:31:44
Speaker
Not to sound like it's, it's when you're out, everything's going to be positive and, and cause you'll also still be the, in my role, I'm still the head of the complaint department when I'm out and people seek me out. But you also find what I will call, you know again, in a season of of when there's a controversial issue, what there tends to be is this really silent majority out there that you're not going to find them on social media. they're You're not going to probably find them anywhere other than out where they are, right? And so you tend to find – you get centered back, in this case, out in the country talking to folks of –
00:32:24
Speaker
what's really important, where they really are at, and you and you get you get you get kind of re-centered on what what is real. um Social media can just get you so distorted. um You get in echo chambers, right? And the algorithms are set up to feed you things that that you either agree with or or that you're that you're wanting to see. and And so it can really distort your perspective. And and I think you gotta work to make sure that doesn't happen.
00:32:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I like the silent majority. I think that's um insightful. And as even as you think about like whether it's leadership and leading a team of people, ah there's probably a silent majority there or I'm a marketer. And so I think always sometimes like actually picking up the phone and talking to someone who is probably not going to come through our customer experience, you know, support ticket kind of thing gives a completely different perspective. Yeah.
00:33:18
Speaker
When you mentioned with the team, i tend to I've tended to take all of your these ideas or questions from a membership perspective, but i think leading a team, you can be led down to some wrong conclusions if you're only listening to maybe one or two team members that's very comfortable sharing their feedback. You got to make sure you're drawing the rest of the team out and knowing where they're at too, right? because Otherwise, you'll you'll tend to You'll go wherever that that squeaky wheel or that that very vocal person goes, and pretty soon your silent majority are are no longer on board because they weren't listened to.
00:33:51
Speaker
So for those who are listening that aspire to be at your level someday, Mark, that that want to lead maybe at the level that you're at now, what do you think that they should be working on right now, or what what traits should they cultivate?
00:34:03
Speaker
You know, I... First, it's getting centered on who they really are. i would ask the question, why do you want to do that? right what ah What's the motivation?
00:34:14
Speaker
if it's If it's because I want a big title, and not that money and salary and and advancements, that's not a bad thing. I don't think there's anything about it.
00:34:24
Speaker
But it's got to be more than that. I think if the motivation to grow in your leadership capacity is just about title and and maybe the some of the financial things that come typically come with that, it's good I think it's going to hard path. I think it's getting getting centered on that and and being honest with yourself right of of what that that looks like. but then But then after that, I think it's it's how do you invest in your in yourself? um You know, how do you put yourself in a position?
00:34:58
Speaker
i never set out to be in this role. It was really never a goal. I know some people are far more goal oriented and it's like, I want to be here by this particular time. and Nothing wrong with that. That's how people are wired.
00:35:12
Speaker
I tend to believe that you just, you you work hard, you you you do the right thing, you care about what you're doing and and things, opportunities will will come your way. and And that's probably been kind of my path.
00:35:24
Speaker
I think investing in yourself, meaning how do you... how do you be How do you be more curious? How can you be how can you make sure you're ah of a learning mindset, a learner mindset? And and and I think that is, if if you adopt that early, i think sometimes it's easy for us to think, well, we got out of school.
00:35:44
Speaker
but i can i don't have to i can ah I can dump that learner mindset now, and now I can go that. Yeah. and and And it's right. you got to that's a That's a trap, right? and the And the same trap can happen with someone like you you you get advanced in your career and pretty soon you you've got a you know ah ah significant title. and significant you can You can fall in a trap there as well of of feeling like...
00:36:11
Speaker
Well, I've kind of arrived, right? I've made it, you know, I don't need, man, that's dangerous. So I would say just ah adopt the habits of ah of a learner, you know, a reader, whether you read, whether you listen to podcasts, whether you talk to interesting people.
00:36:27
Speaker
I mean, who are the interesting people that you have in your in your in your sphere that you're talking to? Who are the people that think differently than you do? If you're surrounded by a bunch of people that think exactly like you think, I would challenge you to go find you know go find somebody that just thinks differently and you'll you'll enjoy it and you'll you'll grow from that.
00:36:50
Speaker
You know, the networking thing is is an obvious one. I would say, you know, build, that's to me, that's part of investing in yourself. Build as many contacts as you can. Just get to know as many people as you can ask, learn how to ask great questions.
00:37:07
Speaker
um That's still something I wish I could do better, right? of of And you're very good at that, Nicole. And and I think that's your some of your your training and that you're naturally you're you're just naturally inquisitive.
00:37:19
Speaker
i am I also am a wonder. So questions come natural to me. Powerful questions are are so important, right? And that's really all you need to build your network is find interesting people and just go ask them some great questions. And man, things good things will happen.
00:37:36
Speaker
Oh, I love that. i think so often we talk about networking and how important it is, but very rarely do we get into what that actually looks like. So the advice of asking good questions is is great.
00:37:48
Speaker
How do you maintain some of those relationships? Do you think about like, okay, I'm building my network, I'm getting to know people, but I think often the intro is easy. And then once you walk away from that conference or that first interaction, people struggle to like, now what do I do?
00:38:02
Speaker
but That's a great question. I think, you know, some follow up from time to time of you know, you read an article that you find interesting. shoot it out to forward it along or text it to, to, to somebody that you met of, Hey, I thought of our conversation when I read this, right?
00:38:22
Speaker
It's, it's simple, but it's, it's, I tell you, there's not many people doing that. And and from a building your network and growing your network and, and what you'll probably find is that person's going to reciprocate that at some point. Right.
00:38:38
Speaker
I know. And i I probably did this fairly well early in my, in my career, probably better than I do it today, but of if I'm going to a conference, you know first off, go to conferences, go to meetings, go to where people are at, right?
00:38:53
Speaker
um That's so important. Try to get the attendee list ahead of time, right? And and find five, 10 people that you want to introduce yourself to and that you want to meet or you want to have coffee with or meet for breakfast.
00:39:09
Speaker
And then, Set it up, right? i used to I used to just jam my schedule full at like an NCBA cattle con. I mean, there was not an open spot. I overbooked. i did i but But i was it was it was some of the the really neat connections I made were through those kind of meetings. was you know i was ah Somebody that some of these very influential people didn't know, I reached out says, hey, can I meet you for coffee? I'd just like to get to know you.
00:39:38
Speaker
And they did, you know, and they will. And then, you know, think good things tend to happen from there. You talked about the importance of of continuing to learn. What's something you're working on learning right now?
00:39:50
Speaker
ah The season I've come through with some of the social you know media thing it is is a lot of what I just got done saying I'm trying to do, right? of of Of how to stay consistent and in in times of in seasons of of criticism. So that that is like top of mind.
00:40:12
Speaker
being Being practical and and and strategic, um trying to you know maybe reshape my role just a little bit of how do I make sure I'm spending time on all only those things, the things that I can do, you know that maybe only I can do, right?
00:40:29
Speaker
um you know Those are just kind of habits and things I'm trying to get i'm trying to get better at today.
Rapid-Fire Questions and Future of the Beef Industry
00:40:36
Speaker
Okay, ah you want to go into a more fun segment. We're going to do a little bit of rapid fire. And I i will warn you, Mark, I'm bad at this because then I have follow up questions. But to Savannah, I will try to do my best not to ask them.
00:40:49
Speaker
So quick answers only. like Okay. What's your favorite cut of beef? Hanger steak. See, I want to be different. But I just had a hanger steak last week and and it sparked like this whole conversation at the table, like, well, what's a hanger steak? And it was fun and you don't see it all the time. So it's unique and it's good.
00:41:07
Speaker
And it is. really I really, really do like it. Yeah. Yeah. Leadership book you have gifted or recommended the most. The Servant by James Hunter um is my favorite and I've given that out a lot. That's kind of required um a lot of somewhat required reading.
00:41:27
Speaker
the The other one that I have also given out a lot is, I don't remember who wrote it, um Our Iceberg is Melting. It's like a Who Moved My Cheese? It's a fable, but it's it's about dealing with change. And like our um Who Moved My Cheese, this one is about penguins. and they it's it's Anybody that's dealing with change, either they have to lead change,
00:41:53
Speaker
um which is something leaders have to do a lot. You have to identify all of the characters and how different people respond to that. And I love that book, Our Iceberg is Melting.
00:42:04
Speaker
um you'll put You can read it like once every three to four months and you'll put different people in the characters. It's pretty fun. That's great. I have not read that one. So that one's going to get added to my list.
00:42:16
Speaker
ah What is the most underrated trait of a great leader? Under it today, I, in today's culture, I say it's humility. I just think we, we put this premium on these like uber confident, you know, charismatic, um, kind of leaders, right? Some of the stereotypical, and I just think, um, in this day and age, I think, I think humility is, is, is a very underrated trait of great leaders.
00:42:42
Speaker
What's something you've changed your mind about on leadership or maybe even the beef industry in the last five years? Maybe on leadership, i in ah remote work, hybrid work, I've changed my mind a lot of times on it. Like, um you know I think since in the last five years, so since COVID, right? how What work looks like and what leadership looks like. And um i've i I'm old school, you know me, Nicole, you know I'm pretty old school. um and And so,
00:43:18
Speaker
being getting comfortable with a lot of different work arrangements, with um how the different ways people work, accepting that it's the work and not the necessarily the hours that you see kind of thing, right? It's just a it's a very...
00:43:39
Speaker
a very, very difficult mindset shift for, for it was for me. And I think maybe for other leaders of my generation or, or, or era, not to stereotype all us old people. yeah But um um well, i'm not that old, but I'm probably an old, I'm a bit of an old ah philosophy on some of these things. So but that's been the thing I've had to relearn and, and worked hard to to relearn.
00:44:05
Speaker
Um, I like the vulnerability with that too, Mark, because I think it's something a lot of leaders have wrestled with, but come out to your point about humility with very bold statements in one way or the other on it.
00:44:17
Speaker
i can I can tell you, I talk to others of my um generation. I would tell you it's probably the number one... ah In terms of leading people, I think it's the number one leadership challenge. um i don't want to say frustration. I think it's because we just don't, I think in some reason in some ways it's it is a frustration just not knowing how to do it best because ah there's not there doesn't tend to be one, um there's not one thing.
00:44:44
Speaker
there's not a boilerplate approach to this, right? So um really wrestling with this and trying to be, you know, trying to be open-minded and and relearn is, is been hard.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounds like it's, ah I think this is challenging in general, but if you think about like, it's, it's leading at an individual level, and not necessarily, and, and trying to have an organizational approach to an individual level need.
00:45:12
Speaker
And that's hard. It's hard. it's it's And I will say, and I'll just be in touch, I think leading in this culture of remote and hybrid work is much harder because you have to be you have to be far more intentional about making connections.
00:45:31
Speaker
i' i'm a believer I guess I'm a believer that leadership starts with with a relationship and being building a relationship is far easier when I see that person every day and I can go just pop in and say hello and I can recognize by walking by them maybe that They're either having a good day or maybe not having a good day.
00:45:54
Speaker
um You know, I i could i can so easily miss that. And I'm sure I do miss that today of people having a bad day that I have no idea because I didn't physically see them or maybe I had a quick Zoom call with them. But...
00:46:09
Speaker
if if they were If we shared a workspace, I would have seen it. I think I would have seen it Yeah. Okay. This was supposed to be rapid fire, but i have a I have a follow-up question because has your perspective on this changed with the addition of technology? And I ask that because I remember a time many years ago where you led a team that was partly remote and part in-person.
00:46:32
Speaker
And we did conference calls around a table with just just a phone, right? Like we were doing remote and hybrid work in an era before video calls.
00:46:43
Speaker
Was the challenge the same or is it different now? Personally, I find it in some regards, it's far easier, right? Because we have, I can i can see you, right? um And in some regards, I find it harder because we have so many but different platforms to connect on now.
00:47:04
Speaker
and And I can share, I mean, we literally had this discussion just the other day of we've got teams, i mean, literally teams, we've got Zoom, we've got we've got all these different platforms and it's,
00:47:18
Speaker
and its And I think that'll eventually we as an organization, we as a society, these things I think will sort themselves out, right? But um right now, I almost feel like we've got so many different ways to connect and communicate.
00:47:34
Speaker
um At times, it almost gets harder. but um Yeah, that's fair. Where like back in the day, it was phone and email. and That was it. You knew how to get in touch with That was it, yeah, yeah.
00:47:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Back to rapid fire. Uh, what is one decision you're really proud of? Um, hiring Nicole Ersig at the time, many years ago.
00:48:02
Speaker
really am. That was, and that was a, so true. That would be, um You know, honestly, some of the things I think I'm most proud of that were an absolute, that were a decision were things we even, that we stopped doing.
00:48:18
Speaker
Oh, snaps for that. Because it's it's so easy to decide, not easy, but we're we're we're great. And I think in society, we're great at doing more, starting more. I think some of the really hardest, some of the hardest decisions we have to make are what are we going to stop doing?
00:48:38
Speaker
And I won't point out specific programs or or things, but things that at the time was what was probably a little unpopular with the team that, hey, we're we're just gonna stop doing this. And you'll run into at times a passion project of someone's or you know um you also have to be careful. It's like our iceberg is melting book of you need to make sure when you stop doing something that that that that team member realizes that, hey, we've got another place to go, right? And you've got you got to paint that picture first, but.
00:49:12
Speaker
what is one thing people would be surprised to learn about you? but Maybe it that the socializing and the networking is, does not, I'm not naturally an extrovert. I mean, I'm not naturally an introvert, but um that is, that is something i have to work at ah to an extent by the end of a, end of a day, like in my role, especially um that that's not, that's not necessarily easy. At the end of that day, I'm usually pretty tired. I enjoy it, but it's not, it's not natural and easy.
00:49:43
Speaker
Absolutely. What do you think the beef industry will look like 10 years from now? think it'll be younger. um i think i think we've got I think we've got a generation, we've got profitability ah in our industry today that is bringing some folks back into back onto ranches.
00:50:03
Speaker
It's going to be, I think, a little more diversified. Yeah. Because of that, I think operations are going to have to find some ways to generate more revenue to bring that generation back. But I do think with that, some of that younger generation, i think we're going to see a generational turnover. So I think with that, we'll bring probably a little more technology, um a little more of um of some solutions to...
00:50:28
Speaker
Honestly, some folks that probably want to prioritize their time a little bit differently. We're also going to have labor. We're always going labor challenges. So I think some technologies that solve some labor and candidly free some people up to to go do some other things other than um be be you know on the farm or ranch 24-7.
Influential Figures and Leadership Philosophy
00:50:49
Speaker
That's exciting, honestly. Interesting to think about a beef industry that more technology, younger. Who is someone you look to for inspiration or perspective, either inside or outside of agriculture?
00:51:00
Speaker
One, I'm fortunate that I have a, ah my wife is someone that also grew up in this industry. She's been on this this journey with me since since college, right? So she's a sounding board for me, probably far more than what she cares to be. um But she is a sounding, my husband to she she is most definitely a sounding board. And and she's someone that I know, i have absolute confidence. She will tell me um what I need to hear.
00:51:25
Speaker
you know That's a risk of of you start getting into, in as you as you grow in your leadership role, you're not careful. You have people that won't be as honest with you. um And so she's someone that I i i know I will get honest counsel from and everybody needs to have those people around them.
00:51:44
Speaker
um Someone that you and I would, i Dr. Larry Cora, if I'm if i'm if i'm stumped and if i'm if I just candidly need a Either a pick me up or or I'm just stumped. um I'll i would pick up the phone and call Dr. Larry Cora.
00:52:00
Speaker
Incredibly wise. Great man. He's a great one. yeah Yes. ah Exceptional one. Exceptional both. both so Both Jerry and Larry. What do you wish more leaders in agriculture would say out loud, but often don't?
00:52:13
Speaker
i don't know if this fits. one of the It seems like every cattle meeting you go to, people say, we got to tell our story. And and i'm i'm just maybe I'm just so sick of that. um I just think we need to, I don't know. It's it's it's popular to say, i don't know that's the solution. um We don't need to educate consumers. no one No consumer wants to be educated. We just need to do a better job of do all the right things and, and be transparent in how we do it and, and get on down the road.
00:52:48
Speaker
That's probably not, that's probably not popular. Preach. ah You know, I feel the same on that one. um Which honestly, that kind of leads into the perfect last little segment is at AFA, we love hot takes.
00:53:01
Speaker
So unconventional and bold opinions. What is ah maybe unconventional or bold opinion in addition to the we need to tell our story um about leadership or the future of the beef industry?
00:53:14
Speaker
I don't know if this is, you know, one of the things we talk about great leaders, one of the terms that always gets used is vision. and And I don't, I just, I'm not sure, I've struggled with that. and And so I think that's, because I don't know that people, some people, I think some people will naturally anticipate maybe what a future state looks like.
00:53:36
Speaker
What I think we characterize as vision is, people that pay good attention, that have a high level of awareness of what's currently going on and has also studied how we've gotten here.
00:53:48
Speaker
So they can, because of that, they have enough data, they can kind of project where things are going. i just think this idea, I think it's just discouraging potentially to what what could be great leaders who maybe don't feel like they I think there's a burden that comes with this idea of you to be a great leader, you got to have great vision. And I just i just think that's flawed.
00:54:14
Speaker
I think that's flawed. Oh, I like it. I wasn't sure where you were going at first, but the idea- Well, I'm not sure I knew i was where I was going at first, but yeah. No, I think it's i i think maybe what you what people think is vision when is probably when they think like a Steve Jobs or something like that, right?
00:54:31
Speaker
Right. When you characterize it as you can see where things have been and how that can predict where things will go and then apply from an organizational standpoint where that means that you should go.
00:54:44
Speaker
That's probably what vision really is. Yeah. Well said. You said that far better than, yeah. So I don't know if that's controversial or not, but it's maybe unconventional. I like it.
Conclusion and Connection
00:54:54
Speaker
Well, Mark, thank you so much. This has been so fun.
00:54:57
Speaker
At AFA, we're all about building bridges. So ah where can listeners connect with you or the work that ah you and your team are doing at the American Angus Association? You bet. Well, you can, of course, follow us on on our social channels.
00:55:10
Speaker
We also have a podcast i would that I get to co-host with our our mutual great friend, Miranda Ryman, called The Angus Conversation. So um we we have a lot of great guests on that come and talk about um their business and what they're doing, their family, their story. and And so if you're looking for another great podcast in addition to this one, I'd shoot you on over to The Angus Conversation.
00:55:34
Speaker
Love it. It's a great one to go listen to. i will also highly recommend. Mark, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your lessons and your journey and what you've learned. ah i always learn anytime I get to talk to you. So I think it's absolutely a treat for the listeners of the Cultivating Leaders podcast.
00:55:50
Speaker
The treat was all mine. Thank you. Well, thank you. And thank you to tuning in to another episode of the Cultivating Leaders podcast, where we grow together as leaders shaping the future of food and agriculture.
00:56:02
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Cultivating Leaders podcast brought to you by Agriculture Future of America. you've been here before, you know we value feedback as a gift. Please leave us a review and let us know how we're doing.