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Why Good People Win with Corey Ciocchetti
48 Plays20 days ago
What does it really mean to live a good life and to lead with integrity?
Corey Ciocchetti, nationally recognized speaker and professor, joins the Cultivating Leaders Podcast for a powerful conversation around leading with ethics. Corey explores why good character is a non-negotiable, how to define success on your own terms and what it takes to build a life of authenticity.
Corey covers how to:
- Lead with Character: he argues that character should be the foundation of all leadership development, yet it's often missing from formal leadership training programs
- Pursue an Authentic Life: success should not be measured by wealth, status or external validation, but by internal contentment, strong relationships and moral integrity
- Building Personal Values: focusing on small, consistent decisions leads to a more fulfilled, grounded life and a stronger leadership impact
This episode will challenge and inspire you to pursue the kind of success that actually matters.
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About The Cultivating Leaders Podcast
Real stories. Practical advice. Tangible growth. Join The Cultivating Leaders Podcast, brought to you by Agriculture Future of America, as we explore what it takes to lead in food, agriculture, and beyond. Whether you’re just starting out or leading at the highest level, this podcast is your go-to resource for leadership that matters. Listen now and start cultivating your leadership journey.
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Transcript
Aristotle's Philosophy of Purpose
00:00:02
Speaker
think about why it matters to be a good person. And the answer to that I think is pretty simple. Aristotle, you know, one of the most famous philosophers of all time sort of wrote, you know, in this vein, human beings are built to flourish.
00:00:14
Speaker
Sort of like a knife is built to cut well. If your knife is dull, it's not fulfilling its purpose, right? Like no one wants a dull knife. A human being who isn't flourishing isn't fulfilling their purpose. And then he wrote, and the only way for a person to flourish is for that person to be good.
Introduction to the Podcast and Corey Cascetti
00:00:35
Speaker
Welcome to the Cultivating Leaders podcast, where we get inside the minds of leaders to harvest great ideas and lessons that help you grow as a difference maker in food and agriculture. I'm your host and curiosity captain, Nicole Ersig.
00:00:48
Speaker
Today's guest is someone who doesn't just talk about leadership, he loves it. Corey Cascetti is a nationally recognized speaker who challenges audiences to lead with character, live with integrity,
00:00:59
Speaker
Thank you.
00:01:03
Speaker
from fortune five hundred companies and student leaders to athletes and first responders corey's message connects with anyone seeking to live a more meaningful life he's a professor of ethics and business law at the university of denver author of the bestselling book inspire integrity chase and authentic life and challenges audiences to pursue what he calls the real rabbits.
Corey's Personal Life and Career Transition
00:01:23
Speaker
Things like integrity, strong relationships, and peace of mind. This episode is for anyone who wants to build a career with purpose and lead in a way that truly matters. Corey, welcome to the pod.
00:01:33
Speaker
Thanks, Nicole. Who wrote that introduction? It's great. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm going to share credit with Savannah on that one. That was a team effort. Fabulous. I could bring you all with me on the road. Oh, happy to help.
00:01:45
Speaker
So tell us, Corey, what did we miss from your bio? No, well, I have two little girls, Sophie and Sydney, and they're precious. One is 11 and one is eight and married been married to my wife, Jillian, for 20 years. Oh, congratulations. That's awesome. Sounds like such fun ages too.
00:02:00
Speaker
Oh, they're precious. Awesome. Okay, so you have built a career around helping people especially live with character and integrity. Tell me, what led you to do this type of work? yeah Well, that's a long story, but I'll make it short. So I went to law school and I went to law school because I thought I wanted to be rich, I wanted to be sort of a powerhouse lawyer, and that would make me happy, right? And so you get that stuff, you become you know a lawyer or whatever, you make a lot of money, and you're sitting there going, and maybe I climbed the ladder of success and realized it was leaning against the wrong wall.
00:02:31
Speaker
um So I took a teaching job at the University of Denver. Someone actually died, a professor died, and so there was an opening. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it's a good job. Someone has to die for there to be an opening, right? And it was a law department, so I thought that was great because I could use my law degree to teach law, but was also an ethics department.
00:02:48
Speaker
And I didn't really care about that, right? I just thought, it let me teach these law classes and just leave this ethics out of it. That's boring and who cares? And then I started to teach it and think about it. And I'm saying to myself, man, this is right and this stuff works. And if you really want to live an authentic life, you have to be a good person. Oh, what does it mean to be a good person?
00:03:04
Speaker
Well, I would call it, you know, you're deeply content. You have strong relationships with a few people. You don't need 100 friends, but three, you know, and and you are a high moral character person, right? You have certain virtues that drive you.
00:03:18
Speaker
ah You look out for the greatest good for the greatest number of people. you You think of, you know, what is your sense of duty to this world, to your family, to the people around you? Yeah. you know It's complicated, right? It isn't easy, but I think that's the kind of life that will allow someone to flourish. And then if you are also rich, then who cares? I mean, it's great. I don't i have no problem with that. you know Be as successful as you want to be. Just don't let that part drive you.
00:03:40
Speaker
How do you define that? As we get into this, I think this is a really interesting conversation for us to be having with the backdrop of some of the online conversation right now, right? So you're talking about living an authentic life in terms of chasing after the type of success that you want.
00:03:56
Speaker
How do you help people define what what that is?
The Importance of Ethics in Business Education
00:03:59
Speaker
What is success? What is good moral character? Those types of things. people at that level probably went to business school.
00:04:07
Speaker
And in that business school, I'm certain there was an ethics class, you know, but it didn't work. Like it didn't take, something about it didn't work. You know, you see all these companies that cheat and ah they're run by people who have business degrees and in those business programs are ethics classes. And so I think if you think about it like that, like these are just some rules I need to follow. This is why so many undergraduates cheat in college, right? The honor code is basically meaningless because it's just words on a piece of paper. What we don't spend a lot of time doing, and what I try to do is explain why being a good person matters.
00:04:39
Speaker
right? And not just if you do this, you get in trouble. My friend talks about it like a spider web where the crafty people will just find holes in the spider web to get around the honor code without getting in trouble or to break the mission statement or break the law. They'll be crafty and they'll find the holes, right?
00:04:53
Speaker
So instead, I think you need to think about why it matters to be a good person. And the answer to that, I think, is pretty simple. Aristotle, you know, one of the most famous philosophers of all time, sort of wrote, you know, in this vein, human beings are built to flourish.
00:05:07
Speaker
sort of like a knife is built to cut well. If your knife is dull, it's not fulfilling its purpose, right? Like no one wants a dull knife. A human being who isn't flourishing isn't fulfilling their purpose. And then he wrote, and the only way for a person to flourish is for that person to be good.
00:05:22
Speaker
It's the only way. So it wasn't like a multiple choice list. So A, you can flourish if you're rich. B, you can flourish if your resume is good. C, you can flourish if you're a good person. No, it was just C, right? And so if everyone's goal in life is to flourish and who would say it isn't, then the only way to do that is to be good. And so that's how I like to talk about it.
00:05:41
Speaker
Is there a difference between ethics and morals? Sure. You could say ethics is your code, ah like a code of values that you want to live by. A company has a code of ethics, right? It's like we commit to X, Y, Z. Morals is kind of in your own life why you believe things are important and how you act, right? So I would focus on the moral piece before the ethics piece.
00:06:04
Speaker
Okay. So define it for myself first and then... Well, but with using like reason and make it make sense. So a moral relativist would define it too, and they would say something like, well, I can do whatever I want because I'm a rational human being. You've got to have a standard upon which you're defining it. So a lot of people use their faith, right? Like their faith will define it for them, or some people will use philosophy, or I believe in serving my community. like Whatever it is, it should be grounded in something good.
00:06:33
Speaker
So how do we navigate this when like my morals and what I view as ethics may be different from someone else's or maybe even different from an organization that I'm involved in? Well, let's take the first question first, right? That's okay.
00:06:46
Speaker
There are certain things I think are non-negotiable that would apply in almost every culture. For instance, honesty. I don't know a lot of people in any culture who would say it doesn't matter to be honest. um Compassion.
00:06:57
Speaker
courage. like These are things that matter everywhere, right? And then culturally, there are other different things that would be like in Britain or Great Britain, you know so being self-deprecating is seen as a virtue. In America, it would be seen as a weakness. you know So maybe as you push it down the scale of importance, there are differences. But in the big things, I think most cultures would agree. Cheating is wrong. you know ah Lying is wrong. Things like that. Now, an organization, if you find yourself in an organization that conflicts with the code of ethics that you've made for yourself, I would not work there You have a strong resume, right? You've built your your abilities and I would not work at a place like that because that that's how you turn bad.
00:07:36
Speaker
you know you take a company like Enron that cheated. They weren't all cheaters to begin with. Four of them were, whatever the number was. And then you hang around cheaters long enough, you start cheating. What would you say to someone who feels like they know what the right thing is to do, but they feel like they'll lose something by doing the right thing?
Maintaining Moral Integrity
00:07:54
Speaker
Well, I tell my kids all the time. It's all part of the experience, right? Like we'll go on a road trip and they'll go, this is awesome. Awesome. within an hour, this is boring. And I'm like, honey, that's all part of the experience, right? Like, If you want to be a good person, you're going to lose stuff.
00:08:06
Speaker
It's actually a really good question, Nicole. And you have to be okay with losing stuff, right? You'll lose money. You'll lose success. You could. It's hard to have everything. But I would rather lose that stuff and have my my moral compass intact.
00:08:20
Speaker
And by the way, you don't always lose. In the long run, you win. In the short term, in a transactional world, you'll lose a little bit. But in the long term, good people win. Good companies win. What would you say to someone who disagrees with that? Who's like, I see corruption all around me. and i see people who cheat or who don't live by strong moral standards win all the time. So why should i play by a different rule book?
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, i think no I think that's what I'm saying. I think in the short term, in a transactional world, cheaters can prosper. But everyone who's listening to this, go look up a company called Ethisphere. That's all they do is they study companies who are good.
00:08:58
Speaker
And the data shows that companies who are good over the long term prosper. Way more than companies who who cheat. So in the short term, you may not win. In the long term, you'll always win.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I would argue that's also true in an individual capacity. So I would encourage people to play the long game with this. Right. Like there are no shortcuts to any place worth going. You've heard that. So you're right there. Those people would be totally right. I don't know in the world we live in now in the short term ethics behooves you, but it will in the end.
00:09:26
Speaker
When you talk about like these companies that are good, is it simply just like we say strong business ethics or is it like doing good in the world too? I would argue that it's good people deciding how to be good in their context, right?
00:09:40
Speaker
so and And good people will do good in the world and good people will look out for each other. you know So I would argue that it goes back to the individual and those the kind of people you want to hire.
00:09:51
Speaker
so So if you're listening to this and you're interviewing right now, if they don't ask you about character, you ask them. ah Like, how important is character at this company? You know, I always tell people, like, there's two questions I want you to ask. Like, how how how do you define character at this company or individually to the person who's interviewing you?
00:10:08
Speaker
And then say, how many people's lives are better because you've worked here for the last year? Right? Like, make sure people's lives are better because or else do not work there. And then when you're interviewing people, you ask your applicants the exact same questions.
00:10:21
Speaker
And if they don't have good answers to that, I wouldn't hire them. I like it. So what are green flags that people can look for as outside of those questions as I'm like interviewing at a company or looking for a good company to work for?
Understanding Organizational Culture
00:10:34
Speaker
So it's not a mission statement. okay That's not a red flag. It's just a stupid. it's stupid like Every company that's ever cheated has had a mission statement. right like When I wrote my book, I went and looked them all up. like All these companies that had cheated, they had beautiful mission statements.
00:10:50
Speaker
You know, Enron promised we'll be the company of the highest integrity. All these school will be the most transparent, whatever. And it was all bull. So the mission statement doesn't mean much to me. I would look people in the eyes and because you're going to get to meet more than one person on the interview, right? And just ask like, hey, on a daily basis, do people take care of each other?
00:11:09
Speaker
Do people care about each other? Or is it everyone for themselves? You know, like ask questions outside of the skill set of your job. Because we all know people who are amazingly competent at stuff, but they're terrible people.
00:11:19
Speaker
ah You do not want to work with someone like that. No, it's not fun at all. How can leaders create a culture where moral courage is the standard? So they got to show it.
00:11:30
Speaker
and I might be wrong on this. I don't think I am wrong on this. You can't change a culture from the bottom up, right? It always has to be from the top down because here's what will happen. The people who are junior who go to a company and they want high morale and they don't see it, they're just going to quit.
00:11:44
Speaker
And then the junior people who don't care about high morale, they're going to stay. And the way it works in this country is they fail up to the top of organizations like that. And they didn't care about character then or morale, and they're not going to care about it now.
00:11:55
Speaker
So a leader who wants to that in his or her employees has to have it himself and people have to see it in them. What I hear you saying is the behavior that you actually witness and the walking the talk matters so, so much more than whatever words are on the wall or mission statement or values that a company has.
00:12:14
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's a good question, too, because I think a mission statement can be really important because if you live it, it's nice to have some core values written down. Right. So I'm not against those. I would say, though, let's live it first and then write that like the honor code at my university is just a docu sign.
00:12:32
Speaker
I don't know where you went to school, but like it was a docu-sign. it did well Who cares? So it's like residence hall contract, accept. Meal plan, accept. Honor code. They're not even going to read it. Scroll down, accept. So it should be – I'm trying to get them to implement, like, let's have a ceremony. Let's make this serious. let's you know You're not going to stop all the cheaters, but it should be taken seriously.
00:12:50
Speaker
Or don't have one. How important does accountability for, I'm going to say, like, bad ethics or morals matter in – like an environment like that right um so when you say like i i am totally relating to what you're saying of so many times a day we're like yes accept yes sign whatever we digitally sign things we don't read them we move on how much does it matter in that proactive standpoint of here's the morals here's the values versus on the other side of it of if you break this or if you don't live this way seeing accountability or negative consequences
00:13:26
Speaker
Well, and that's the problem, right? All we do is the accountability piece. So it's punitive, right? If you cheat in college, x Y, Z, bad will happen to you. And so you'll get an asterisk on your transcript. You may get kicked out. you have to write a letter to your parents, whatever that is.
00:13:41
Speaker
And so that is like scaring people to be good. you know But I don't think you get a lot of moral credit for not cheating because you don't want your parents to know. So I would, I mean, you have to have accountability, right? If someone cheats, you have to get them.
00:13:54
Speaker
Okay, this is what how i want to talk about this. If someone lies to you, Nicole, What virtues are broken, right? Well, honesty, trust, integrity, maybe friendship. I mean, all of it, right? If you lie to somebody, six or seven virtues are broken in the process.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah, and it severely damaged the relationship. Yeah. Absolutely. So lying is bad, not just because it's dishonest. It's bad for 20 reasons. And so you tell people why it's wrong to cheat. And I think you try to attack it that way.
00:14:24
Speaker
And then because you're not going to catch them all, some people are immature, some people don't care. then you have to have the accountability piece on the other side. And i do think you have to enforce it. Okay, so you need both.
Proactive Ethics Education
00:14:34
Speaker
For instance, do you think you get credit for not speeding because you don't want to get a ticket? Like you don't get moral credit for that. You're just not trying to get a ticket. know like i I would rather attack the moral piece of it first, but still have the accountability at the end.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yes, okay, that makes sense. And it seems like what I'm hearing you say is oftentimes in organizations, we miss the front part. of like the proactive piece. Always.
00:15:00
Speaker
That's, yes, brilliant. That's why I have a speaking career. Seriously, like that's the whole reason that I do this because we've missed it completely. You said it better than I could. Do you ever see that changing or is that a tactic for people and organizations that want to get ahead and move faster?
00:15:16
Speaker
Well, I think people are scared to do it, right? So how do you like pretend you graduated from college, you have a management degree. right? Or you have an ag degree and you didn't really take an ethics class, but now you're running a company.
00:15:29
Speaker
You know, you'd be scared. how am i supposed to talk about ethics when I never took the class? But I would argue back that you don't have to have taken the class. What does it mean to be a good person to you? Address that in your staff meetings, when you hire people, et cetera. I don't think you have to have a philosophical background to be able to talk about this.
00:15:45
Speaker
Yeah, and especially not to live it. No, sure. It's crazy, right? Or else the only people who would be good would be philosophy professors. I meet so many people who I think are just really high-character people, and they come from all walks of life, right? They're not necessarily priests or pastors. or're They're whatever. They're CEOs.
00:16:04
Speaker
They're the people that come clean the my office at at school. like They're just really nice people. They're just good people because something inside of them tells them, I want to flourish. I want to be good. It matters.
00:16:15
Speaker
What advice do you have for people who want to develop that? Because I feel like character and morals and those types, like even ethics, right, in your perspective on them, evolve over time and evolve as you're tested through them. So if I'm a leader who wants to level up, what advice do you have for me to get started in thinking about how how I do this better?
00:16:38
Speaker
So here's the first thing you do. You go take a walk. Right? You take your phone, you turn it off, you put it in your pocket, you don't have any headphones on and you just take a long walk. And you do this as many times as you need to. And you ask yourself these types of questions. Am I a good person?
00:16:52
Speaker
Am I a kind person? Am i you know, a caring person? Am I envious, jealous, selfish, mean? You know, find out who you are. Then the next walk, you're going to go and say, okay, this is who I want to be. Okay, the person I want to be does x Y, Z. And then the next walk, you're going to say, how do I get from where I am now to who I want to be?
00:17:11
Speaker
And then on the fourth walk or whatever, you're going to say, do the people in my life right now, like my friends and colleagues, help me become the person I want to be. And if not, maybe you need a new group of friends or a different group of friends or you need to supplement. You know what i'm saying? Or maybe you need to change jobs.
00:17:24
Speaker
And so it really is just you. And none of this is to shame you. It's just all to help you, right? It's not a shame walk. It's a, I want to figure out who I am and I want to be better. But I need i know i need to surround myself with people who I want to be like.
00:17:38
Speaker
Not perfect people, but good people. Yeah. I think what you're describing takes courage. And I think there's a difference, too, between what you're saying is like almost do a mental inventory and evaluation on yourself of even that question of am I a good person? i think there's plenty of people who are high achieving, probably good people who even when you ask that question may say no or may be incredibly hard on themselves because it's because I'm not here, because I haven't done this.
00:18:10
Speaker
So give me some advice or thoughts on one, having the courage to really look yourself in the mirror when you might not like what you see and how you balance it with like, when am I being too hard on myself versus like defining what a good person means to me.
00:18:25
Speaker
Well, and two so that's great. Two things. The definition of courage, one I like best is fear that has said its prayers and decided to go forward anyway. Like you can't be courageous unless you're scared.
00:18:37
Speaker
and So, so yeah, to exhibit courage, you have to overcome fear. And so I think that's really powerful. And then the second thing is I've done this for, this my 21st year doing this. I never get mad at someone's first reaction to something.
00:18:52
Speaker
right? If it's anger or bitter or jealous, we're just humans. I get mad if you act on it, you know, so don't beat yourself up. If your initial impression is anger or rage or whatever, that's fine, but just don't act on it and figure out in your mind how you should, how like how a good person would act on that information. So don't beat yourself up about just being a human.
00:19:15
Speaker
How often do you do this for yourself, Corey? Well, and this is cool part about my job. I get to do it daily. And my wife gets mad at me, you know, because she's like, it's so easy for you. Well, only because I think about it 14 hours a day, right? So it's on my mind all the time. So I do it all the time. Like I'll go on a 15-mile bike ride with no nothing and I'll just think.
00:19:34
Speaker
That honestly almost sounds scary to me of like no headphones. Yeah. Well, first it is, right? Because no one wants to cope with their reality. But on that bike ride, I realized, hey, Corey, you're an impatient person.
00:19:45
Speaker
And when you're impatient, you make bad decisions. And when you make bad decisions, bad thing happened to you. So if I could go back in time and be more patient, better things would happen to me. But if all I do is have my music on or I'm sitting here doom scrolling all day long, I'll never know that about myself.
00:19:59
Speaker
You know there's this quote, it's attributed to Einstein, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, right? Like, have you heard that? And so, if you need to take any time to think about yourself, then you're gonna do the same thing over and over again.
00:20:11
Speaker
And it's not gonna change. It will not change. In the same way that if you don't like, i tell my students this all the time, if you don't like your grades, but you don't study differently, you're gonna get the same grades. You take the LSAT. A lot of my students wanna go to law school.
00:20:23
Speaker
They don't do well on the LSAT. How are you gonna do it different next time? No, I'm just gonna study like i always have. But then you're gonna get the same score. Save your money. Right. Like you said, have the courage to know who you are and do something different.
00:20:35
Speaker
And hey, if your friends don't appreciate that, then you could find new friends. There's how many billion people in this world? And all you need are three friends. You said that at the beginning, too, of like you don't need 100 friends.
Authenticity and Self-Reflection
00:20:45
Speaker
you Maybe you need three.
00:20:46
Speaker
Where does that philosophy come from? Well, if you read books, and I just think this is fun, about humans who live the longest, and people write about this, you know, and they do a lot of things in common. Like they have a good diet, they exercise, there's a lot of stuff. But one of the things they have is a small group of really good friends. They have a community of people who care about them, who rush in when everyone else rushes out, right? Like that is key to life.
00:21:08
Speaker
But what I think a lot of younger people do is say, I need 20 friends, 30 friends. Because social media says that, but that's ridiculous. So you have a network, which should be as big as it can be. I love that.
00:21:19
Speaker
But you also need a soul circle. And if you don't have that, that's why people are so lonely. In England, they have a minister of loneliness. Like it's a high government official to deal only with loneliness.
00:21:31
Speaker
And you know were we're we're connected all over the place, and yet we're all really lonely. And it's an ever-selfish world, right? Like COVID showed us that. So you got to find some people who would be there. Yeah.
00:21:42
Speaker
I like the even three too, like feels very achievable. Listen, I think if you have more than eight, you can't be a good friend to all of them. Oh, amen. Yeah. yeah Right? You're going to just, you're going to be halfway on all the relationships because you also have your life to live. And so how about three to five people? And the younger you are, the lower that number should be.
00:21:58
Speaker
Okay, so the younger you are, the lower that number should be of like close friends. Because it's hard to find those lifelong friendships. So don't force yourself into something that isn't going to happen because you're 25.
00:22:10
Speaker
So find three. And then when you're my age, you're in your 40s. Okay, find five. And then you're good. And then you don't like then you don't just become exclusive and those are your only five people. Again, your network should be huge. You should have tons of relationships, but you've got to have a soul circle.
00:22:24
Speaker
I like that. Developing a soul circle. Okay, so we've talked about ethics and relationships. One of the other things that you talk ah a lot about is authenticity. So how do you define an authentic life?
00:22:35
Speaker
So it's finding out who you are and being that. So you're not someone else so that you fit in. And this doesn't just happen in high school and college. It does, of course it does, right?
00:22:47
Speaker
Like the first week of college, everyone says to themselves, everyone, I don't wanna go out like that many times. I don't wanna drink this much. I don't wanna party this much. But if I don't do it, I won't fit in. Everybody has that mental conversation, right?
00:22:58
Speaker
And then when you go to law school like I did, it's if I don't go to a corporate law firm, I'm not a very good person. And then blah, blah, blah. If I don't live in this neighborhood, if I don't drive this kind of car, if I don't vacation, if I don't join the country club, the problems just become different when you get older.
00:23:11
Speaker
But if you don't care about that crap, then don't chase it. Remember, you're trying to flourish. It's impossible to flourish if you are fake. I would say find out who you are and be that. Be whoever you want.
00:23:25
Speaker
as long as that is a good person. And if people don't accept you for who you are, then screw them and you'll find some other people who will. I do a lot of talks to men, you know, what does it mean to be a man?
00:23:37
Speaker
That's like a huge thing these days. I mean, it's, you know, and my definition of that is just be any kind of man you want as long as you're a good person. like Be who you want to be. If you want to be tough and strong, cool. If you want to be athletic, if you want to be cerebral, like I don't care. Just be a good person. There's no one way to be a man.
00:23:57
Speaker
And when you say that to these young men, they're just like, oh my gosh, no one's ever said that to me. because they And women do the same thing. I have to be skinny. I have to be pretty. I have to get good grades. Women just look at it different than the men do, but it's the same BS.
00:24:09
Speaker
Yeah. You said a couple of times of like being a good person. i feel like a lot of people, the good person and the authenticity sometimes, not sometimes, oftentimes can like have friction, especially because of what we've been told externally good means.
00:24:27
Speaker
So is good to defined internally or some, I mean, sometimes from an ethical standpoint, it's defined societally, right? Yeah. Okay, so let me start this way.
00:24:37
Speaker
but Your value doesn't come from your grades, right? Your worth doesn't come from your grades. Your worth doesn't come from your the job you have. Your worth doesn't come from your resume, right? your worth does it Your worth comes from who you are as a person and the dignity you possess as a human being. Your worth comes from that and the way you plug into the world and the way you plug into other people. like Your worth comes from that.
00:24:59
Speaker
Not that those other things don't matter. They matter a lot. Just not to define your worth. So you have to say, i am who I am inside. And I want that to be a good person. And how I express that. So yeah, it really does come internally.
00:25:12
Speaker
But I don't think you could say, well, I don't care what anybody thinks of me. Because then you become weird. Right? So it's here's how I look at that. I only care about what people think about me if they love me or have my best interests at heart.
00:25:29
Speaker
then I care a lot. Like if my wife says to me, hey, I think you should be doing this, like I'm going to listen to that. um If my kids were to say that to me, if one of my friends would, if one of my students at University of Denver would say that to me, I would listen to them.
00:25:41
Speaker
But if I listen to every piece of criticism I ever get after a speech or whatever, I couldn't do this job anymore. Find people who love you, want you to be better. And when they tell you something critical, it's meant in the spirit of making you better.
00:25:56
Speaker
What about if that goes against when you talk about authenticity and being who you are? What if you have someone in your life who does love you um or does have your best interests at heart? And I think this could be in in a professional situation. This could be in a family situation, right? Where they're giving you feedback that is well-intended but hurtful and not helping you live an authentic life.
00:26:16
Speaker
You've got to be able to express that to them, right? But you know what I found in life? Because I get pretty defensive about stuff. I mean, everyone does, right? They might be right. And I would not like trash it away. Like if someone really loves you and they say something and it hurts you, like let them know it hurt you, but don't just discount what they're saying. Sometimes you can.
00:26:35
Speaker
Like I've had people who have loved me who have given me bad advice, right? So I'm not saying take every piece, but I'm saying don't just initially discard it. because it hurts you because they're not trying to hurt you.
00:26:47
Speaker
but I always like to think of intentions with stuff. So, you know, when you ban a mascot or whatever, we we have a controversial, we're the pioneers, University of Denver pioneers, and it's a controversial mascot for a lot of reasons.
00:27:00
Speaker
But I would look at that and go, okay, what was the intent of that? And if the intent was biased or bigoted, well then get rid of it. If the intent wasn't, then maybe you don't. And the same thing is, What's the intent of the person saying that to you?
00:27:13
Speaker
And if it's meant for positive, then just shrug some of that off and listen to them. I like the ah reframing it through intent because that feels a lot easier to I'm going to use the word judge and I'm not sure that's the right way, but, or maybe even filter of determine like what's good or what's worth listening to and what's not or what's worth fighting and what's worth not.
00:27:33
Speaker
And you don't exist just to have your butt kissed all day. You know, my students, younger generations are just, that's what they've been accustomed to. Like everybody gets a trophy. and But, you know, it's sometimes if someone loves you, like if my daughter brings home a piece of artwork, okay, and it's awesome, I'll tell her it's awesome.
00:27:49
Speaker
If it's no good, I'll be like, well, I've seen better. And then I laugh and give her a kiss. You know, I don't want her to think it's good if it's not good. Like she knows I love her. You've got to be honest with people, but you want to do it with love and compassion.
00:28:02
Speaker
I like that.
Prioritizing Family and Personal Growth
00:28:03
Speaker
If someone who is listening to this feels disconnected from who they want to be, we talked about the walk. What's the first step that they should take? And it's okay if you go back to that walk, was curious well it's like but It's like AA, you know, admit you have a problem.
00:28:19
Speaker
I mean, I really think that that's a powerful thing. So admit to yourself that you are not as good a person as you want to be. And because of that, you're probably not as happy as you want to be. Or admit that you're chasing money or you're chasing looks.
00:28:33
Speaker
Like you're trying to be pretty and you're hoping that'll make you happy. Newsflash, it won't. Because I know a lot of pretty women who are miserable. Do you, Nicole? I mean, they're everywhere. I know a lot of handsome men who are miserable.
00:28:44
Speaker
I know a lot of rich people who are miserable. Popular people, look how many celebrities have depression. So, you know, admit to yourself that what you're chasing is probably fake. Then the walk comes in.
00:28:56
Speaker
it's like, okay, so what should I be doing? And then I would go out there and I would read as much as you can about this. you know Don't just listen to me. what What does mean to be a good person? you know We'll land in the same sort of place, most people.
00:29:10
Speaker
I think you just hit on something that what I'm hearing you say is a lot of this does tie back to happiness. If we talk about flourishing or fulfillment or purpose. It feels like some of what you're describing is hey, if you want to pursue happiness, if you want to be happy, these are some of the keys to get there.
00:29:30
Speaker
Well, let's define the word right. It's deep contentedness with your life. and and that's And I use the word happy to mean that. you know I don't mean this trite, we're at a Taylor Swift concert, it's fun for three hours.
00:29:42
Speaker
I mean deep, deep contentment. But here's what the word contentment means to me, okay? I'm satisfied with where I am in my life right now But I have audacious goals for the future.
00:29:54
Speaker
So when you say contentment to somebody like, oh, you're asking me to settle. No, I'm asking you to be happy now because if you're not happy now, when will you be? Because you're always going to go, well, when this happens, when this happens, when this happens, it will never happen enough.
00:30:05
Speaker
So who wouldn't want to be content just to find the word right? Yeah. I got so excited when you said that because one of my words of the year is audacious. And so thinking about having audacious, like crazy big goals and dreams, but also enjoying where you're at just very much resonates with, I think, where I'm just going to say me personally, but also I think a lot of our audience in terms of where you're at in your career.
00:30:29
Speaker
And I think Savannah and I have heard several other leaders say this on our podcast of like, enjoy where you're at. It's not all about getting to the next rung on the ladder. I mean, still pursue those things, but don't forget to just enjoy this phase.
00:30:43
Speaker
We're not guaranteed another day. Open up the newspaper, you know? I don't really drink. I don't spend a lot of time drinking. i want to enjoy it. Like if today's my last day, i want to remember it.
00:30:54
Speaker
You know, like I want to be deep into this life. And, you know, so because you're not guaranteed another day, you want to be content now. But because you probably will have another day, then you want to have goals. Okay. So this podcast is really focused for people who are are wanting to level up in their career or who want to be great leaders in the workplace.
00:31:12
Speaker
What do you think are some non-negotiable traits of being a good leader? yeah I'm going to say it's going to sound counterintuitive. Don't delete this out. ka You want to flourish in your job? Never put your job ahead of your family. like Have your priorities straight.
00:31:29
Speaker
So ah my family comes first and my job comes lower down the rung. And if you do that, you have a way better chance of being successful at your job because you won't always be internally conflicted. You won't be frustrating your spouse all the time. You'll be there for your kids, the things that most people want in their heart. Okay. So level up with your family first.
00:31:48
Speaker
Then once you have that right, go find that the best job you possibly can that allows you to do that. You know, go make a dent in the universe, but not at the expense of your family.
00:32:00
Speaker
And I don't hear a lot of people talk like that, but I would take that to my grave as the most important thing I say to anybody. I've literally stood on a stage in front of a million people over the last 20 years. And that I'll take that to my grave as the most important thing I'll say to anyone.
00:32:13
Speaker
I wholeheartedly agree. Here's my question for you, Corey. Do you think... people can grow in these ways without learning some of these lessons the hard way?
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah, well, yes and no. Not every single one of them. You know that stupid line, what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Like, I hate that because that's exhausting. Who wants to live that way? I'm going keep having my ass kicked and then keep getting back up and like, okay, fine. Yeah, like some lessons you've got to learn yourself, but not every single one. You know, like I had to learn a lot of lessons myself because no one ever talked to me like this and I'm tired.
00:32:50
Speaker
You know, so like try to learn as many as you can, not the hard way. And then some of it is life's hard knocks. But please don't be so stubborn, you know, that you just will only learn when something bad happens to you. That's exhausting.
00:33:02
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, I like that. Now, let me reframe it. Even what you're talking about, right, of learning to put your family first before your job or learning to look in the mirror and have courage to address what's hard.
Embracing Life's Challenges
00:33:14
Speaker
Is any of this pursuit of a life where you're flourishing without some type of conflict and hard work? No, I think the conflict's fun. Like, I think it's a good part of it, right?
00:33:27
Speaker
Like, you don't want to just coast through it all. There's no challenge to that. I say this to my wife all the time. She's a surgeon. um She went to Cornell Medical School, you know, and she's transitioning into a business owner. It's a whole different skill set, right? like They don't teach any of that in medical school.
00:33:41
Speaker
I say to her all the time, honey, play chess, not stress. Like, think of this as a game of chess as opposed to a bout of stress, and there are strategic moves to be made, and in chess, you lose pieces.
00:33:54
Speaker
right? No one wins a chess game without losing any pieces. And so all you do is stress about everything, then that's brutal. But the challenges are fun. I love it. Yes.
00:34:04
Speaker
I think as humans, we're designed to want to solve problems and overcome things. Like that's part of it. And I really like that analogy. If you think about high performing leaders, no one gets there without some bumps and bruises.
00:34:17
Speaker
And so I like that chess analogy because you're going to lose things, but that's normal if you're pursuing this type of exceptional life where you want to flourish. Think about our political discourse today. Okay. Think about America today.
00:34:30
Speaker
I say this to my students all the time because I teach constitutional law and they're frustrated by the national dialogue or the nation's policies or whatever. And what I end up saying to them is, do you really want to live in ah in a country where every single person agrees with you?
00:34:43
Speaker
I mean, that's called North Korea. Like they don't really agree that is after or they, you know, so you don't want that. You want to live in a society where, where people disagree. And you you want to live in ah and a society where there are challenges. It shouldn't come that easy because then you don't learn anything.
00:34:58
Speaker
And I feel like if it came easy, it wouldn't seem worth it. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. Okay, Corey, I could talk to you all afternoon, ah but I know we are getting close on time. So I want to move into a section that we call rapid fire.
00:35:13
Speaker
So just quick answers, as quick as you can answer in like a ah sentence or 30 seconds or less. ah you saying I'm too long-winded? No, not at all. Actually, fun fact, on almost every, probably every single rapid fire session we do, i typically extend these and and make people go long. But I wrote them today. We'll see if I can get through without asking follow-up question.
00:35:34
Speaker
Okay. What is the value that you refuse to compromise on no matter what? Courage. Because i think it's a meta virtue. Without courage, you can't do the other ones. A quote or phrase that you always come back to when things get hard.
00:35:46
Speaker
I used to do P90X workouts with Tony Horton. You should look him up. He's a cool guy. He says, do I've done P90X. Yeah. And you know this, do your best and forget the rest. That's the secret to life.
00:35:57
Speaker
Like i always ask my kids if they don't get a good grade or something, did you do your best? And if they say, yeah, we're good. And if they say no, we talk. That's a good gauge. What's one question every leader should regularly ask themselves?
00:36:10
Speaker
Am I modeling the behavior I'd like to see in others? Am I a leader I would want to follow? Like would I follow myself? That's a hard one to think about looking in the mirror on sometimes. What is a hill you'll die on when it comes to leadership?
00:36:22
Speaker
You mean like if I was working for someone? Yeah, if you were working for someone or, yeah All this academic stuff, I wouldn't die in any of these hills. But if I, because, you know, I have different priorities. But yeah, if I worked for someone I didn't think was a good person, I would leave.
00:36:36
Speaker
And and would it wouldn't matter how much money I was making. Or if that person would give me a good reference or not, I would just be i would quit and find something else to do. What trait kills trust the fastest? Dishonesty.
00:36:46
Speaker
What is the most underrated leadership skill? Respect. What is your favorite place you've ever spoken at? Oh, gosh, I've done 2,000 of these. um I don't know. Let me let me say this.
00:36:59
Speaker
Every time I get to go to AFA, and I know this isn't for those students, but when I get to go to AFA, those students are incredible. And I get like five hours with them. And it is like they are thankful. They are grateful. They are kind.
00:37:13
Speaker
It's just kind of the kids that go into this sort of field who become the professionals who are listening to this. They're like wired to be really kind, grateful, good people. And a speech like that recharges my batteries for the hard ones.
00:37:27
Speaker
You know, going to talk to a fraternity or, you know, that got in trouble or something like that or a company that's under investigation. Like a lot of times they'll bring me in because they're busted. And or there's a death on campus or something. like That's brutal.
00:37:41
Speaker
And those those death on campus speeches take years off of my life. And so if it wasn't for AFA, stuff like that, I don't know, but I'd be able to do it. ah Well, thank you.
00:37:52
Speaker
I love that. A little plug for Leaders Conference, um which I promise I wasn't digging for. Okay, moving out of rapid fire, one of the things you said there. How did I do that? You did great. I was just proud of myself. i always want to ask more follow-up questions. And so this is what I'm going to do now, because what you just said sparked something.
00:38:09
Speaker
If I am someone who wants to make more good people in the world, what advice do you have for me? What should I do? It's the inches, not the touchdowns. Okay. You're not trying to score touchdowns. That's too hard, but you're trying to inch along.
00:38:24
Speaker
And so you make six of them. Listen, if everybody did that, we'd be fine. i think a lot of people who are younger in their careers, are all they want is the touchdown because we see that as that's all that matters.
00:38:35
Speaker
But touchdowns are hard. So fight for inches. Yeah. That makes us the everyday small interactions with other humans feel like that's where you, that's where you win the inches. Yeah.
00:38:48
Speaker
And if you watch football, if you gain enough inches, you'll score touchdowns. Okay. So, Corey, we always like to – at AFA, we
Character in Leadership Programs
00:38:55
Speaker
love hot takes. So, unconventional or bold opinions.
00:38:59
Speaker
So, what is a hot take that you have about leadership or ethics? That you can go to any leadership training program, right, and you're not likely to find any emphasis on character or integrity.
00:39:14
Speaker
And I think that is a huge mistake. It's not to say that those programs are bad, right? Or taking a leadership class is bad. But if they're not talking about character, man, that is a huge red flag. And so you need to find out how character matters to leadership. Then go take those classes.
00:39:28
Speaker
They matter. But if you don't have the foundation right, it's all going to be wasted. Like, for instance, if you go take a leadership training class and they teach you how to leverage power. Okay. That's important. I think that's kind of cool.
00:39:39
Speaker
But what if they teach you how to leverage power and influence without talking to you about ethics? Well, you get the business culture we have today in America. So everyone wants to leverage power, but if you don't do it the right way, you're screwing people.
00:39:52
Speaker
hu Yeah. <unk>s It's almost like ah a lot of times we get taught, and I see this, I think, in young leaders, and I'm going to say I see it in a younger version of myself where I wanted to be a leader.
00:40:02
Speaker
or I wanted to be at the top or grow. But you're right. If you don't have that that foundation of character, you're going... It's almost like you have... You're missing pieces of the puzzle, is what I hear you saying.
00:40:14
Speaker
It's the first step, like you said. And why is that a hot take? Like, duh. Well, no one's teaching it. You know, like I went and looked up all these leadership programs. The word's not even in there There's no synonym for character and integrity in the ones I saw. And I looked at like 80 of them.
00:40:28
Speaker
So what what are we doing? Mm-hmm. Well... ah i i feel like if I look back on some of the leadership ah classes or things that I have done, a lot of times it does start with that, like, how do you define leadership? A lot of times it's influence.
00:40:43
Speaker
But there is often that conversation of... is like you can have leaders who are bad, right? So like whether you look the history of politics or you know like a Hitler or who starts wars or or things like that.
00:40:57
Speaker
So how does that fit into what what we're saying here in terms of like you need to have this character in order to have success in in leadership and and growth and all of those things? it maybe maybe we're taking this full circle right now, right? Of like um where we started this conversation of can you can you be bad and still a good leader? When you say the word leader to me, it it doesn't mean much to me.
00:41:21
Speaker
You know, it's like a lot of people think leader, that's an awesome person. No, it isn't. It's just someone that can compel or influence people to do stuff, right? So go back to this example. When someone dies on a college campus in a basement because they drank too much, there were leaders in that room.
00:41:36
Speaker
They got the kid to go down there. They got him to drink. There's no way to get an 18-year-old kid to do anything he doesn't want to do, right? He was led down there, but they weren't good ones. They were cowards. They were reckless. they were You know what I'm saying? So you say the word leader to me. i don't think I think of that as a neutral term that you have to infuse meaning upon, right? So I would call it a character-infused leader.
00:41:57
Speaker
Now, you say that to me, and I'm impressed. Yeah. that Even the way you said that, it's like, okay, that's the kind of person I want to be. character infused leader.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's your only chance or else you're going to fall into the trap of following the sheep off the cliff of a transactional world and you're going to chase money over people. You're going to care about your shareholders more than your employees.
00:42:19
Speaker
you're gonna write it you're Because the cause everyone else is jumping off the bridge. Why why don't you? You've got to have something that tells you, no, I'm not going to do that even if it costs me. Yeah. And ah I think with our conversation, it sounds like if you're someone who wants to be fulfilled and flourished in life, it's worth it cost.
00:42:36
Speaker
And this is a good way to end. On no one's tombstone is it written, here lies John Doe, he was rich. Like, find me one. Here lies Jane Doe, she was really pretty, like back in her 20s, now she's dead, she's friggin' ugly.
00:42:49
Speaker
Like, she's dead. ah No one's tombstone talks about how pretty you were, how rich you were, what you're the CEO of, blind it doesn't say that, it says, here lies Jane Doe, loving mother, loving spouse.
00:43:01
Speaker
Here lies John doe member of the community, beloved, right? It's going to say that on your tombstone when you die. It might as well matter to you now. Absolutely. That is a great way to end it. Thank you so much, Corey. You're great, Nicole. Oh, thank you. This has been wonderful. I could talk to you, like i said, all afternoon.
00:43:17
Speaker
at AFA, we're all about building bridges and connecting people. So can you tell our audience where they can connect with you and find you? Yeah, sure. Instagram at Professor Corey, C-O-R-E-Y, or just coreyspeaks.com, C-O-R-E-Y, S-P-E-A-K-S.com.
00:43:33
Speaker
Awesome. Well, I highly recommend giving Corey a follow. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. This has been incredible, Corey. We appreciate you being on the Cultivating Leaders podcast. Thanks for listening to the Cultivating Leaders podcast brought to you by Agriculture Future of America.
00:43:48
Speaker
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