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00:00:01
You Might Be A Bad Manager
33 Plays9 days ago
What if the reason you're struggling as a leader isn’t your fault?
Dr. Katie Ervin—author, founder, and creator of the Catalyst Workplace Model—joins The Cultivating Leaders Podcast for an honest conversation about what it really takes to lead without preparation, “being kind,” and bad managers. Through her career, Katie has learned the importance of vulnerability, feedback, and honesty.
Katie gets real about:
- Leaders are Often Set Up to Fail: People are often promoted into leadership roles without the proper tools, support, or training
- Culture is Changed Through People-centered Solutions: advocating for directly addressing interpersonal or cultural issues rather than making vague company-wide announcements
- Feedback and Accountability are Kind: don’t avoid the truth to spare feelings when the truth can lead to development
Katie offers grounded, practical advice on becoming a leader, not just a manager.
Connect with Katie
- Connect on LinkedIn
- Visit her website - Here
- Check out here book - Here
Connect with AFA
- Follow us on LinkedIn
- Follow us on Instagram
- Like us on Facebook
- Follow us on TikTok
- Visit our Website
About The Cultivating Leaders Podcast
Real stories. Practical advice. Tangible growth. Join The Cultivating Leaders Podcast, brought to you by Agriculture Future of America, as we explore what it takes to lead in food, agriculture, and beyond. Whether you’re just starting out or leading at the highest level, this podcast is your go-to resource for leadership that matters. Listen now and start cultivating your leadership journey.
Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss another episode!
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
I love hard things. I always tell people I love the grumpiest person in the room because they have a story. They're grumpy for a reason. And so what is their story? And so even the most challenging organizations or, you know, maybe we're going through something hard. It's through those hard things that, that growth happens.
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome to the Cultivating Leaders podcast, where we get inside the minds of leaders to harvest great ideas and lessons that help you grow as a difference maker in food and agriculture. I'm your host and curiosity captain, Nicole Ersing.
00:00:38
Speaker
Today's guest is a leadership strategist, culture architect, founder, and author who brings more than two decades of experience in ah HR, higher ed, and organizational development. Dr. Katie Irvin is the creator of the Catalyst Workplace Model, a practical approach to building engaged, high-performing teams, and the author of You Might Be an Asshole, But It Might Not Be Your Fault, a refreshingly honest guide to leadership growth.
00:01:02
Speaker
As someone who has personally enjoyed learning from Katie, I'm excited for our listeners to hear her refreshing perspectives on people management. Katie, welcome to the pod. Thanks. I am so excited to join you all.
00:01:13
Speaker
I'm so glad you're here. What did we miss from your bio? It's so funny. As I'm listening to that, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's that's really me. But for people that that know me really well, I have some really other cool titles that I'm really proud of. Mom of two amazing young adults.
00:01:30
Speaker
Wife, I'm an avid cruiser. As much time as I can spend on the golf course is ideal. And just trying to spend as much time with my friends and really soak up everything I can.
00:01:41
Speaker
I think in all of those titles, both the ones that I shared and the ones that you did, it's clear you're a people person. ah Yeah. I love people. Okay. This is not what we plan on talking about at all, but I also am a huge fan of golf.
00:01:54
Speaker
So I am curious, do you feel like golf has taught you any leadership lessons? oh oh i Okay, I could geek out on this for hours and hours and hours because I'm so fortunate to be a part of a couple different women's golf groups.
00:02:09
Speaker
And so I do leadership development for a program here in Kansas City called Driving Pursuits, where it's all about introducing women to golf. But I do the professional development side. like growth mindset and time management that works on the golf course and in life.
00:02:25
Speaker
But I just created a presentation about how our golf game ties to our leadership. So like, if you think about it, like, how do you go off the tee? How do you plan your shots? If you're behind a tree, do you punch out or do you go for it? Like,
00:02:39
Speaker
How we behave on the golf course or really any sports or any activity we do. You know, are we more timid? Are we harder core? So actually, i got some really fun little trinkets and things in the work for some sponsorships I'm doing of golf tournaments ah that tie every shot in golf to leadership.
00:02:57
Speaker
I love that so much because I really... I could geek out on this as well. Golf is one of the most frustrating sports I've ever played, which is not the reason I got into it. I got into golf because like you can drink and play golf. like how What better activity?
00:03:13
Speaker
And now when I'm on the course, like it's it's if you're trying to play well, it's completely a mental game. And I think you learn so much about like self-control and emotional control and all these things that honestly translate to the workplace and leadership.
00:03:29
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's funny you say why you got into golf. I got into golf because in 2003, I was the only woman on executive team. I was the HR director. And at two o'clock every Tuesday, all of the men would leave me in charge and and just go away. And I'm like, where are going? And they're like, oh, we're going to the golf course. And I said, I golf.
00:03:53
Speaker
On the drive home, I called my husband. I'm like, I got to take golf lessons. like i got it Decisions and things happen, not just on the golf course, but all over. And it's like, where are we getting left out of the conversation, whether it be as women or non-golfers or whatever. And so I had to make a decision to get myself on the golf course. And now, I mean, so many, 21 years later, the relationships, the connections, the confidence, everything, you know, it just, whatever your your choices of growth, it's so powerful.
00:04:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think you can learn a lot. Golf is also a very long game for anyone who doesn't play it. ah It takes several hours to get through 18 and you can learn a lot about a person spending time with them playing golf. And you don't, you don't have to be good. Like everyone's vulnerable. You don't have to be good. Even the best golfers, like if you watch on Sunday, pj championship, even the best golfers have bad days. yes Yeah. yeah play bad shots, all of it.
00:04:49
Speaker
Okay. so I love that, that reason that you got into golf. Give us a little bit of your background and and your leadership journey. Yeah, it's so interesting because, you know, i tell people all the time, like, you know, when did you think of yourself as a leader and and all that stuff? and And leadership is not a title. All the things we hear all the time, like the bumper sticker type things.
00:05:12
Speaker
But it was really in 2017, I was preparing for a workshop that I was presenting for the Kansas Society for Human Resource Management. I was doing a workshop. I was presenting my doctoral research and I started kind of piecing together my leadership journey. And as I kept going back through the years, it was really the aha moment that the first time I really stepped into a leadership role was when I was 16.
00:05:37
Speaker
I grew up in Huntsville, Alabama, and all of the high schools had these like non-affiliated like social sororities. And I was not invited to the cool kids sorority, and neither were my friends. And I was like, well,
00:05:51
Speaker
that's a real bummer. What's the name of our sorority going to be? And so created our own little social sorority. And ah the first time we hosted something was at my parents' house. And we had 72 teenage girls that were not invited to the cool kids' table either. And it's like, if we're not going to be invited, then let's create our own table And so that's really where, as I looked back and reflected, I didn't see it at the time, but now it's so obvious. Like I wanted to create an opportunity where everyone can come together and be connected and be valued.
00:06:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you started becoming a leader at a very young age and deciding, hey, if I'm not invited, I'm going to find a way to either get to the table or make my own.
00:06:37
Speaker
How did that end up with you having a career in HR and you know rising to the level of being on the executive team? So I have my own podcast, The Path to Leadership. And I really created that because everyone's path is not as straight. It's a windy path. like Very few people at four years old say, want to be... When I was four, I wanted to be a truck driver. I thought that was the coolest.
00:07:02
Speaker
Quite frankly, still think it's a little cool because you get to travel around in big trucks. But Very few times in our career, even in college, we pivot, we change, and then we get into our career field and the journey is is not straight. And so quite frankly, I'm probably one of the few people that changed my major in my master's program.
00:07:21
Speaker
i did my undergrad in sociology and psychology, and I just loved people, like how people work, how people tick. And my mentor, Dan Stoker at Pittsburgh State University was phenomenal. and I'm sitting there my senior year like,
00:07:35
Speaker
I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And he led me to a path of student affairs. And so I went to Indiana state to get my master's in student affairs. And I was the fraternity grad assistant and I was getting calls at 2 AM for, you know, dumb, dumb decisions that, that college kids made. And I'm like, I'm still a dumb college kid. Like,
00:07:59
Speaker
Why am I getting these calls? So I started very early realizing, don't think I want this to be my whole life. And about eight weeks in I get a call at 7am on a Saturday from one of my professors.
00:08:12
Speaker
I won't mention his name, but it is drilled in my head. I can tell you his name probably till the day I die. And he said, I'm just calling everybody and checking to see what you're doing. And I said, uh, sleeping?
00:08:23
Speaker
It's 7am. he goes, I'm just calling everybody because you have a paper due on Monday and you better get it done. Click. And then he moved on to the next. I was fuming. And so my now husband, boyfriend at the time, later that day, I was telling him that.
00:08:40
Speaker
And on Monday... This professor started berating us. I called everybody. Nobody was up working on their paper. You know, some of you just need to really think about, is this the the industry? Is this the path you want to take? And, you know, some of you should maybe go over to HR because it's soft.
00:08:59
Speaker
So I'm now fuming and I'm a warrior for everybody. So I decide, you know what? I don't know who you think you are, but let me just just straighten this out for you.
00:09:10
Speaker
And so i I go to my boyfriend, Rob, and said, can you believe this? He goes, you would be really good at HR. I'm like, I don't even know what HR is. So I explored it. And by the next semester, I changed my master's program into human resources development.
00:09:27
Speaker
Thank goodness for this crazy professor that, you know, was yelling at us. I didn't even know this path existed. and then it was just a very windy road of getting in the the wrong seats or the wrong places in and realizing that HR can do some really powerful things when we find our voice and when we speak up. And we can really help organizations do great things, but it just takes a lot of work.
00:09:55
Speaker
That is an incredible story. And so random that like such a weird experience set you on the path for what became such a pivotal part of your career. Yeah. And I'm such a like, listen to the universe. What is the universe? When I feel overwhelmed or out of control, i just sit and I'm like, okay, universe, what are you trying to what are you trying to tell me? And like all of our paths, my husband will tell a story like, I should have never taken this job. He left Indiana state to go to another university and it was a horrible experience.
00:10:26
Speaker
So seven months later, he came back to Indiana state If he wouldn't have come back, I would have never met him. So sometimes he laments about how he should have never taken that job. And I'm like, you had to because you had to come back because we're celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary this year. And without that little detour of, oh, that was a horrible experience.
00:10:49
Speaker
The butterfly effect, we would have never been together. And so I'm so thankful that he made a really bad choice and then came back. That is, I think, such incredible perspective, Katie, because for people, the phase of my career or Savannah who's sitting here, sometimes those mistakes can feel like they are world ending or dream ending or just like, oh, like they can feel so heavy.
00:11:13
Speaker
So to hear you say like the mistakes are honestly sometimes the best part and and like put you on the path to what's right. Yeah. And I always tell people to, you know, we got to pause to learn from those mistakes. And I proudly say I've been fired from two jobs. One is completely my fault. I was young and dumb and watch your tongue, know better.
00:11:32
Speaker
But I learned so much from that. and the other one was not my fault. But I know I made the right decision. And I stood as kids these days would say, stood on business. I did the right thing for the company and I got fired for it.
00:11:46
Speaker
But also it led me to something greater. But I say that because in the moment I was crushed and heartbroken and I thought this was the end. And I realized, you know what? Feel bad for yourself for a day or two and then growth mindset.
00:11:59
Speaker
Flip it and go. What are you learning from it? Okay. First of all, I just love that you told that story because I never would have, I think maybe you have told me that before as we we've gone through development experiences together, but I would never assume that you are someone who has been fired from a job. but Oh yeah.
00:12:14
Speaker
And one of them was epic, like epic firing. And that was because I, again, young and i thought I had all the answers. And so I decided to pipe up.
00:12:25
Speaker
And then instead of like just understanding that- you know what, you can have an opinion, but sometimes people don't care. And is this the hill to die on? And i decided 31, it was and so then I started going to board members.
00:12:40
Speaker
And I mean, it was just so ridiculous that I did this and did everything. And so the next morning, I woke up and like my email didn't work. And I was, I turned to my husband and I said, I think I'm getting fired today. He's like, why do you think that? I'm like, there's just something in my gut that just tells me that this is it. So I was like first in the office and my boss, he was so upset and he was so disappointed because he really liked me and he was hoping it could be a coaching moment. But I mean, once you tick off a board or once you tick off people with decision-making ability, they will take swift action. And
00:13:16
Speaker
And I could have handled it so much better. But what I learned was you can be honest. You don't have to be brutally honest. You don't have to, you know, take everybody out in the wake.
00:13:29
Speaker
You can you can do it. And then sometimes you got to make a decision. if it's not right for you, you go. But you don't have to burn it down on your way out. Even as tempting as it may be, i think especially too for the folks that we're talking to agriculture is such a small industry.
00:13:44
Speaker
Anytime you damage those relationships or burn those bridges, like those people don't disappear from your life. You're going to see them throughout your career over and over again. Sometimes it's worth it to think the thoughts inside your brain, but maybe not share them.
00:13:58
Speaker
And even if you change industry, I mean, social media has made the world so small. And so whether it be on LinkedIn or whether be, you know, any other social media platform, I mean, it's almost that, you know, what, seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. Now on social media, it's probably more like three. You can probably find someone who knows someone.
00:14:18
Speaker
oh absolutely. Absolutely. In my experience of hiring people, when I have had someone that I'm like, okay, I don't know you. I want to check, you know, check references. are it's It's honestly surprising how easy it is to find someone. I can find someone in my network who knows that person who can share a story or give me perspective.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So your work today centers on workplace transformation. Obviously, we just talked about being fired, that kind of thing. What experiences influenced how you approach change and and lead through resistance and teach other people how to to transform work and transform their cultures?
00:14:52
Speaker
I love hard things. I always tell people I love the grumpiest person in the room because they have a story. They're grumpy for a reason. And so what is their story? And so even the most challenging organizations or you know maybe we're going through something hard, it's through those hard things that that growth happens.
00:15:11
Speaker
And I found, especially in my career, as I hit my stride, as I was doing things really well, I would go into organizations that either had no HR department and I would create it. Or I would go into organizations, whether it was through hr operations, that were not functioning at their full capacity.
00:15:29
Speaker
And what I found was i loved getting in there and cleaning it up. And then once it started running smoothly, I'm like, bored. I'm ready for the next.
00:15:40
Speaker
But what I did with those organizations and what I do now with organizations is really go to what is the gaping wound? So often in organizations, we try to slap a bandaid. you know it's People aren't timing incorrectly. So we you know put out a policy or a punishment or whatever. that's you know Or we have a big meeting and everyone knows like Nicole's the one that's not doing it correctly. But instead of saying to Nicole, like,
00:16:06
Speaker
Nicole, time incorrectly. We just have this big meeting and say it broadly to the whole organization. And so we've all sat in a meeting like that where that it's like, this isn't about me, but someone did something. Right.
00:16:19
Speaker
And it's like, why don't you go to the person and say it to them? And so what I found is through my journey is really getting to the heart of it all and cleaning up the wounds and cleaning up what's going on and and making things really safe.
00:16:33
Speaker
And so often that's through leadership. A lot of times organizations will bring me in to do like a two day workshop on their strategic plan or like who they want to be for the year, stuff like that. And so it's this fun little team building thing. And it's like, what are your goals for the year? And they're like, we want to triple profits and we want to do this. this and And it's all these like indicators of a healthy culture. And I'm like, well, let's Let's back up.
00:17:01
Speaker
Why aren't you making, you know, money hand over fist? Why are you having this massive turnover? What is the the challenges with your organization? What we find is it's typically rooted in the people piece And when we can get the people piece correct, then we make more money, turnover goes down, profits go up. And that's really the the basis of my work for the last 24 years is how do we create a healthy organization so everything can thrive?
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah. I think we hear a lot of leaders say the people part is like the hardest part of the business, or I hate when people say it's the worst part because I think it's the hardest and the best part.
00:17:43
Speaker
And especially too, leaders right often grow because they have technical knowledge in a certain area. And then you have these technical experts. Those skills aren't people skills. And the people part can be the critical piece to actually getting the work done or getting the results that you want.
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's the foundation of so much of the work I do. I actually, it's funny because I have a six month leadership program that I do. And then one of my clients like, this is lovely. I need something for like the overnight, like today I'm an individual contributor. i get a promotion tomorrow. I'm expected to wake up magically with all these people skills, like,
00:18:18
Speaker
Now go lead people. And it's like, well, I was a mechanic yesterday and now I'm responsible for mechanics. That's a whole different skill set. And that's why so often when leaders are promoted, they still stay in the weeds. And that's because they don't have those higher level skills. And it's truly, truly, truly not there their fault because we don't teach it. And then we get mad at them because they don't have the skills.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah. Which is so unfair. And so that's why everything that I've created is, you know, how we A, give people grace because people don't just come in with these skills. And I believe we all have them in us.
00:18:55
Speaker
They just need to be unlocked. And that's why the work I do is all the way from seventh graders to C-suiters. The skills are the same. It's how we apply them, how we talk about them. It's different. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:07
Speaker
So do you think young people can get a head start on these people skills? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's where I am so excited because when I really started my work, it was really looking at that mid-career people. There's people that are at that pivot point where...
00:19:23
Speaker
They're supervisors. They're like a lot of the listeners to this. they're They're kind of that middle piece where they're not individual contributors, but they're also not the ultimate decision makers. So they're kind of this stuck in the middle spot. And what I found was there was not a lot of leadership opportunities or leadership growth for them. So I created my program in 2017 for them.
00:19:44
Speaker
But then as i kept going in this, I realized that this really applies. So I'm so fortunate. I've been able to work with students through AFA.
00:19:54
Speaker
I've been able to work with students through NAIA, student athletes, and unlocking those skills. And I'm now working with a nonprofit to do some pilot programs with seventh graders. I mean, can you imagine if seventh graders learn how to have difficult conversations,
00:20:11
Speaker
or emotional intelligence, or like, all of these things. And I think some school districts are starting to do it. But the challenges, I'm going to not get on the soapbox too high. But the challenges, I love teachers, and we ask teachers to do so much.
00:20:27
Speaker
And just like everybody else, they're not necessarily taught all of these skills in college. And so To ask teachers to teach emotional intelligence when they've really never developed their own emotional intelligence, that's so unfair to them.
00:20:42
Speaker
And you're asking them to teach so many other things. And that's why I think leadership partners like me coming in and working with organizations, I don't want to teach fifth grade math or seventh grade math or you know college math.
00:20:55
Speaker
But what I would love to do is come in and teach these leadership skills and take the burden off of the teachers because the teachers can learn there too. Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. What I think is fun is to think about a world where we do learn these like emotional intelligence and crucial conversation skills so early in life.
00:21:14
Speaker
What could the workplace be like 10, 15, 20 years from now if we all had ability to communicate and collaborate and connect with each other in a' much better, more effective, healthy way?
00:21:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Fun fact, I worked for a university and I wanted to create something called the Bridge Certificate. All my curriculum is trademarked, so nobody steal this, but actually i don't care steal it. There's enough room for everybody.
00:21:42
Speaker
But what I wanted to do was create this Bridge Certificate the students took at universities. And this is the work I do with the AFA students and NAIA students and any other students I work with is when you think about a biology lab, what What are the skills other than biology that we're learning in the lab? We're learning teamwork. We're learning, you know, how to be agile, how to pivot, like all of these different skills. And so what happens is whether be high school students or college students or people that get their GEDs, it doesn't matter when they go for their first job interview and the interviewers asking kind of skill based questions, right?
00:22:22
Speaker
And for our first job or even our first leadership job, people will say, well, don't have experience in that. But maybe you do. You do. We just got to unlock it. Like even when you think about going into your first like titled leadership role and it's like, how would you lead people? Well, don't know. I've never had this position. Yeah.
00:22:41
Speaker
No, you've never had the title. You've had the position as leader. Whether you're an introvert, extrovert, no matter who you are how you've done, there's moments of leadership in your journey.
00:22:52
Speaker
ah That's so encouraging, Katie, too. And I think empowering because... There's a lot of stuff you can look like look at and be like, oh, I don't have the right experience for that. But if you dig down into the into the treasure chest of experiences, you probably do. Amazing. Right.
00:23:08
Speaker
Right. And I tell people all the time, there's some interesting stats and I'm going to get them completely wrong, but it's like men, if they have three of 10 skills, they will apply for a job. And potentially get it.
00:23:20
Speaker
Women will only apply for a job if they have nine or 10 of the skills. And I tell women and men, like if you have seven to 10 of the skills that go into that job, you should be supervising that job. like You need to level up. Like if you're going into a job that you know how to do backward and forward, and if you're comfortable and you don't want to manage people, like not everyone is people people and not everyone should be a a people leader.
00:23:47
Speaker
we need really high level individual contributors too. Yeah. Yeah. If you can do that job in your sleep, you're waiting until you've mastered that job to apply for it. That's not the job you should be applying for.
00:23:57
Speaker
Go up, give yourself, you know, you can learn the jobs. I think that's really good encouragement. I will be honest. I'm one of those people that's like, unless I can check every box, then it's probably not right for me.
00:24:08
Speaker
But then what do you have to learn and grow in the job? If you check every box, where's your growth? Yeah, that's fair. Okay, so I want to pivot a little bit and talk about the book that you wrote. The name is just phenomenal. And for anyone who doesn't love a cuss word, sorry, but your book is titled, You Might Be an Asshole, But It Might Not Be Your Fault.
00:24:26
Speaker
I am curious where the inspiration for this book came from and what was the moment that you knew you needed to write this book? Yeah, it's, it's funny, because the name of the book was going to be be the catalyst.
00:24:38
Speaker
My company is catalyst development. I know we're going to talk about the catalyst workplace model. And so I would tell people like, I'm writing this book. And they're like, cool, what is it? And I'm like, be the catalyst. And they're like, cute.
00:24:49
Speaker
And they'd move on. And I tell my husband, I said, that's not the, that's not it. Cause the book is really a story about a guy who might be an asshole, but it might not be his fault. Like he was put in a position. He was brought into a company. He was under a bad leader who quite frankly, the leader was bad, might not have been his fault, but they were never given the leadership skills. They were never given the kind conversations.
00:25:15
Speaker
They were never, ever, you given the opportunity to grow. And so that's where the it's not your fault comes in. Like I said earlier, we put people in positions and then we don't give them the skills and then we get mad at them and we fire them.
00:25:27
Speaker
We're setting people up for failure through my HR journey, through my operations journey. ah kept seeing this come through as a thread. And that's why, you know, I keep going back to 2017. And that's really when I created Actually, much earlier, I created the curriculum that I use now, but in 2017, I really solidified it because what I found was i would promote people and then set them up for failure because we would give them no skills.
00:25:54
Speaker
Instead of churning over, you got to grow. So the book is true stories of mistakes that I have made and mistakes that other leaders have made. and it's funny because people read the book and they're like, there's no way this happens.
00:26:07
Speaker
There's no way that, you know, some of the stories in the book are so shocking, but it happens. i tell people to like, I know I have a doctorate and I should do ah research all the time, but I don't. But I believe 97% of people want to be really great leaders.
00:26:24
Speaker
I think there's 3% of people that it's like, you're a jerk. And they're like, cool. Okay, I don't care. But I think most people want to do great things. And so that's why I wrote the book the way I did. And at the end of each chapter, there's growth opportunities. Because in all my programs, there's this little, little S. So what?
00:26:41
Speaker
What are you going to do about it? After this podcast, so what are you going to do about it? Like, are you going to lean into your leadership skills? Are you just going to go back to day to day when I do keynote speaking? So what are you going to do?
00:26:54
Speaker
Is there a nugget you can take to grow? Is there something you disagree with me on? Good. i love when people, I don't know everything. So are you going to dig into that to prove me wrong? Go for Let's go. Like it's through that, that it's it's growth. And so i created this book as a love letter to all leaders to, you know, first of all, give ourselves grace because we're going to make mistakes.
00:27:17
Speaker
And it's really a redemption story of a character that it's, it's all of our journeys. We can do great things when we, when we admit our mistakes and then commit to growth. How do I know if maybe i am the asshole in an organization, Katie?
00:27:33
Speaker
Oh, I love that question. i love that question. well And it's so funny because i actually, yeah i have done some like year kickoffs where organizations have brought me in to like do my book as a book club. And then- It's like I have this checklist, like, do you do this? Do you do this? Do you do this?
00:27:50
Speaker
The beauty with so much leadership stuff is it's common sense. Like, ask people. But you've got to be genuinely open to this growth mindset. And you don't have to, like, walk up to people and be like, am I an asshole?
00:28:02
Speaker
But it's truly like... You know, I ask people all the time. i tell people, I'm on a growth journey. And one of the first things, and I know you did my my leaders program through AFA, and one of the first things I have leaders do at all levels, whether you're in seventh grade or whether you're, you know, 79, is write a leadership philosophy. What are your grounding principles? Who do you say you are? And through that leadership philosophy, then you can go to people and say,
00:28:31
Speaker
Here's who I want to be on my best day. And here is who I'm striving to be on my most challenging days. Hold me accountable to this and give me feedback. And so if I'm not living to my leadership philosophy, to my grounding principles, if I'm not living with integrity, if I'm not creating community, if I'm not developing growth for myself and others,
00:28:55
Speaker
I invite you to hold me accountable and help me personally grow. And it's when we build those relationships and community around us that then people will say, my husband, he's the co-chair of my advisory committee. He will say to me, oh boy, i do not, I do not.
00:29:12
Speaker
think that that came out the way you thought it would. And we never want to disappoint the people that love us the most. But also, I'd rather have my husband say it to me and no than to have some random people not say it to me and talk behind my back. Like, I can't grow unless someone tells me about my missteps.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i always say, I want you to tell me if I have lipstick on my teeth. Like, don't let me walk around like that. But also what I hear you saying is that in order to grow and to get that feedback, you have to be the first one to be vulnerable and to ask for it. And to like, I need to be someone who said like, hey, please tell me if I have lipstick on my teeth.
00:29:52
Speaker
and then people feel more comfortable doing it. Because I think even whether you have toilet paper on your shoe, if you walk out of the bathroom or your fly is undone, even providing that level of friendly accountability can be uncomfortable for the other person.
00:30:04
Speaker
Well, and I do a program, Don't Be Nice, Be Kind. And it's not just Midwest nice, but we're in the Midwest. So, you know, that's what we say here. But it's that, you know, I don't want to say something to hurt your feelings or make you feel bad.
00:30:16
Speaker
That's really unkind. When we don't tell people the truth, when we don't give them growth opportunities. we're really being unkind to them and setting them up for failure. So, but I mean, it's so basic, like for me, if you care about people, whether you know them or not, like I care about humanity, I want everyone to have an opportunity for growth.
00:30:36
Speaker
I want everyone to be successful. And so I will even say to people that I don't know, and it's, you got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, but I will say, i don't think this was your intention, but I just wanted to let you know that this is happening. Or i was getting my nails done several months ago and these two young moms were in there and they were, they were laughing and joking and theyre they had their kids with them and their kids were going crazy because kids do, that's what they do.
00:31:04
Speaker
And the women were joking because the husbands went off and did something else. And, and they told the staff like, our, you know, our husbands couldn't keep the kids. So, you know, you get you guys get to, to you know, be a part of daycare today. And they were laughing.
00:31:17
Speaker
it But it's not the kids fault, but they kept ratcheting up, ratcheting up. And so finally, the person doing my nails, you you could feel the tension in the room. And so I turned to these young women and said, um you know, I don't I know this is not your intention. and I have two kids. I have been in your seat many, many times.
00:31:37
Speaker
in my journey as a parent, I said, so I know it's not your intention. However, your kid's behavior is impacting the whole room. And so, um I just want to let you know, because I didn't want you to not know.
00:31:51
Speaker
And, um the one woman was like there, you could see one woman kind of wanted to be like, mind your business. But the other one was like, I am so sorry. I'm so sorry. I said, I know, i know. And I know being a mom is challenging and,
00:32:03
Speaker
And this is such a gift that you have this time to get your nails done. But also, I don't want people like I don't want you to walk out and people be talking about you when you when you walk out of the room. And as I was leaving, the woman said that was the kindest thing that someone has said to me.
00:32:18
Speaker
Can I tell you, I was hot like i was hot with nervousness. like Oh, yeah. i like Even you telling that story, I'm like, oh, gosh, what's going to be the outcome of this? Right. I was so nervous because the outcome doesn't always go that way. And you got to be safe and you got to be, you know.
00:32:31
Speaker
But I do believe that it is the kind thing to do is to tell people the truth. It's not kind to talk behind people's back to make yourself feel better. Oh, amen. I think that is one of the most hurtful things that we all experience, right? is Especially when you hear the things that people have said about you behind your back.
00:32:50
Speaker
It's just like, man, I wish someone had told me or I wish we would have talked about it. or like i think it's just one of the most hurtful things that can happen to you. And it happens to us all, especially as leaders. I don't know any incredibly powerful, wonderful leader that there isn't some conversation about like, oh man, they didn't really handle that well or wish they would act differently around this.
00:33:11
Speaker
But I love that you point that out because I think a lot of us, it's not our intention. Back to what you said, it's not our intention to hurt people. We're just sharing conversation or sometimes it's like, I'm not crazy, right? Like their behavior is out of whack.
00:33:25
Speaker
But if we don't address it with the person, then it can be really damaging. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we all have moments where it's our world and anyone's living in it because we're in the middle of our, our swirl of our world.
00:33:37
Speaker
We can't always see that. And so it really helps to surround yourself with people that, that love you and are kind enough to be like, Hey, by the way,
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah. If I look back at my own leadership journey, one of my mentors and someone who just was an incredible impact on my life, the first time I met her, she was yelling at me. Like my first interaction with Care Kaiser was, I don't remember what I was doing. I was a high school kid and I was goofing off and I should have been doing something else.
00:34:06
Speaker
But I just remember this short blonde woman telling me that did I need to get my stuff together. And I had never met her. And she scared the crap out of me. But over our relationship, I learned that, like, how grateful am I to have someone who is willing to say the hard things and point out the bad behavior needs to be fixed?
00:34:24
Speaker
Because where would I be if she hadn't done that? And so sometimes, like, I look back and I value the harsh feedback the most. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny, because when I do my crucial conversations training with with people, I always tell the story, like, early, early, early in my career, I had a boss pull me into his office. And he was like, I'm going to tell you something.
00:34:44
Speaker
I don't know who told you in your life that you're the most important person in the room. Everything's not about you. And I'm like, it okay. But yeah we all have big T, little T trauma that we grew up with. And and part of my, you know, little T, big T-ish trauma growing up is anytime someone was whispering, i felt it was about me.
00:35:06
Speaker
And so then going in the workforce, you still have these stories you're telling yourself in your head. And so anytime a door was closed or anytime someone was... standing off to the side and I couldn't hear. It was always like, what are they saying about me? What did I mess up? Like your brain is made to keep you alive, not happy. So your brain is constantly like, oh my gosh, it's about you. It's about you. And and he was like, you've got to stop.
00:35:27
Speaker
Everything is not about you. You know, the world does not revolve around you. And he was so harsh and how he said it. But it was such an important thing that I needed to hear. And I still hear it today.
00:35:38
Speaker
What now Katie would go back and hopefully train him is again, you can be honest and you don't have to be brutal. I mean, he yeah square between the eyes with his words, but it stuck with me and it's important.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Okay, Katie, you've spent a lot of your career in HR. am curious, and obviously we can get more of this in the book, but tell me about the wildest or most dysfunctional leadership you've witnessed and what did you take away from the experience?
00:36:07
Speaker
Oh, boy. Yeah. and There's a lot. There's a lot. I mean, there's a lot of unintentionally really bad leadership out there. i will say probably the the worst leadership and the one that has stayed with me the longest is really put me in my first, like, who do you want to be as a leader moment. And so very, very early on in my career,
00:36:32
Speaker
I was an HR assistant and I found a keen error. it was It was no one's mistake. It was ah just a keen error. So no one did it on purpose. It was not intentional, but it was negatively impacting a leader.
00:36:43
Speaker
And so what that meant was his vacation accrual did not increase. There were some other kind of triggers that didn't happen that I just caught through a random audit. And I went to my boss at the time and said,
00:36:57
Speaker
We'll call her Sally. Shout out to all Sally's out there. I'm sure you're fantastic. But I went to to Sally and said, hey I caught this error and this is how it's impacting him. And she said, well, it's been going on for three months. He didn't catch it.
00:37:10
Speaker
How did he react to that? Yeah, I am 23. am newly married. I am... newly married i am you know, my first big girl job and okay, ethical dilemma. What do you do? And so I called my brand spanking new husband and said, I think I'm going to quit my job today.
00:37:29
Speaker
Uh, at this point we'd been together about two years. And so he kind of had already been like, just keep her between the lines. Just hold on for this journey. Um, now 25 years into it, he'd really tell you that.
00:37:40
Speaker
Um, but he was like, well, you got to do the right thing. And so I went to the managing partner and said you know, i caught this error. Here's how it's impacting things. I'm not comfortable with the decision that was made.
00:37:53
Speaker
i also know that having this conversation with you requires me to put in my resignation. I'm also going to go down and tell this employee um and then I'll pack my box and go. and And I should say it wasn't just that one moment. She had had a string of other kind of unethical things. And so now to this day, i still think, what would she do?
00:38:13
Speaker
And I do the opposite. Like, I never want to. And she was fine with it, even after I left, you know, and she was... She was reprimanded all this stuff. And i mean, she still continued the behavior to the point where they finally did the right thing, but it took them another year and a half to do the right thing.
00:38:31
Speaker
and she was the HR leader. And so that was such an early on, like, I should say she was an HR boss. She was not a leader, but that's a thing I never want to be is I never want to intentionally or unintentionally hurt or damage someone else. And you got to stand on integrity.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yeah. ah Such a great story. Okay, let me flip it because I think often people have negative experiences with HR and maybe it's it's not the most trusted department typically in organizations.
00:38:59
Speaker
So what would you say to maybe change the stereotype that a lot of people have around HR and their experiences with it? want I want to give an opportunity for redemption after you told the story of ah of a not great HR leader.
00:39:12
Speaker
Or HR boss. Right, right. No, I appreciate that. I appreciate it. Well, and it's so funny because it was just recently HR Day, but National HR Day to celebrate HR professionals. And I posted this meme of The Office, which I love The Office.
00:39:27
Speaker
And it's Michael Scott talking about Toby, the HR person. And he's like, Toby's a part of HR. So he's not a part of our family ah because he's HR. And then he's going through a divorce. So he's not even a part of his family.
00:39:40
Speaker
so So it's just just really funny. But it's it's to your point. It's like how people see HR. And HR walks this really challenging tightrope where, yeah, they're responsible to the organization, they're responsible to corporate, but they're also responsible for the employees and for their growth. And really fantastic HR people out there. And there's so many great ones out there that see the responsibility on both sides. I mean, they, people always say you know, HR is responsible for culture. Everyone's responsible for culture, but HR is really the, the heart of the organization. They're responsible for people.
00:40:18
Speaker
They're responsible for the decisions that happen in the organization. and in how they impact the people. And so I always hated this coming up in HR because it's like HR needs a seat at the table. And ah that's such a thing people say, but I mean, HR does need a seat at every table. When we think about changing an accounting policy, how does that affect the people?
00:40:40
Speaker
When we are thinking about changing how we, you know, bring trucks into our organization. How does that impact the people, you know, how they move through the day, things like that. And the really phenomenal HR people out there, which there's more of those than, than the people my scenario, they're really looking out.
00:40:59
Speaker
for the people and really looking out for what's best and being able to walk that tightrope to corporate, hold corporate accountable and also hold the the workers accountable. And so it it it is really an important role in an organization.
00:41:15
Speaker
the the other hard part with HR is, and and that's why I think I'm so good in the work I do now, is HR is not a a moneymaker. We're a money saver. When you get the right people in the right seats doing the right jobs, you can save the organization money because you're decreasing turnover, you're increasing efficiency. And so being able to really be allowed to do that.
00:41:37
Speaker
But what happens in when money gets tight, when times get tough, we cut HR budgets because they're not making us money. But you've got to really flip that. How do we save the organization money?
00:41:49
Speaker
And that's really what HR people do is they put policies and procedures in place to help teams be successful, to help organizations grow. ah But we've got to have a voice. I mean, HR people really need to to have that voice in the organization and be valued. And if they're not second or third in command,
00:42:07
Speaker
They need to be in the room when the second and third people in command to make the decisions. HR is also the place where when we don't know where to put things, we put it in naturer I've been responsible for the roof key.
00:42:19
Speaker
I've been responsible for, you know, the toilet paper ordering. Like when people don't know what to do with stuff, they pop it into hr because hr is one of those functions that that should touch every piece of the organization.
00:42:33
Speaker
and so it's it's such a critical role. And i that's why I really created my company was because when I sat in the HR chair, and there's going to be some people listening to this that have HR functions, we always had a list of 30 things on our desk that we wanted to get to when we have time, but we never have time.
00:42:51
Speaker
And so I created my company to come alongside them and do these type of leadership development and culture development and organizational development stuff that is crucial for an organization. But you're so busy putting out fires that you don't have time to do the the other work.
00:43:07
Speaker
So in your career in HR, you've you've gotten to interact with a lot of different kinds of people. Tell me about the best manager that you've ever seen in action and what made them unforgettable. Yeah. Yeah. And I love you said best manager. i love that because people mistake manager versus leader.
00:43:24
Speaker
Are you a manager or are you leader? No, I need you to be both. need you to manager and a leader. Don't be a boss. Don't be a bossy leader. Be a manager and a leader. But I think the best managers that I am so fortunate to work with, and I have this crew that I'm working with right now, and they are just so fantastic. like They have so much room for growth.
00:43:42
Speaker
They're good in spite of their gaps. But what's so cool, is they're constantly asking for more. they They want to grow and they want to hear about their missteps and their mistakes. And I've been so fortunate that in in three years of my company, I've fallen into a very male-dominated.
00:44:01
Speaker
i do a lot with construction, logistics, agriculture, sports. Like it's very male-dominated. And sit around and have a forklift driver talking about his feelings,
00:44:13
Speaker
The first session, they so scoff at it. And then by session three, they're like, so here's how I feel about this. okay And so for me, the best managers know that they're not always the smartest person in the room.
00:44:29
Speaker
They surround themselves with people that that fill their gaps. They are vulnerable and open about that. And they hold people accountable, including themselves. And that is good management. Yeah.
00:44:41
Speaker
They're willing to learn and grow and just just keep going on their their own leadership journey. You make it sound so simple. it is i I tell people all the time, organizations that that are struggling are not special.
00:44:56
Speaker
There are so many organizations out there struggling with this. What makes those organizations unique is how they invest, how they grow. It is so common sense and also so difficult in the same breath because we got do some really difficult work to get to the the root of bad leadership.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah. I always say every place is a mess. It's just which mess do you feel like you can make better or impact or have a difference in? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Every organization is messy. People are messy, but they're also fun.
00:45:29
Speaker
Right. Okay. So what advice would you give to a manager who maybe wants to shift their team dynamic, who wants to do some of that culture work, but feels buried in the day-to-day, the to-do list, the the overwhelm of the whirlwind?
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah, I see this so much with managers that I work with. And there's twofold here. One is a lot of times we've always done it this way or it's always been this way or I inherited this team this way or maybe I'm the reason the team is is struggling or dysfunctional.
00:45:58
Speaker
And so the first step is acknowledging. Like, yeah okay, look, we're not functioning at the highest level, or we've got some dysfunction on the team. So step one is admitting we might have some some challenges.
00:46:10
Speaker
Because I think if we just come in like overnight, we read a book, and then tomorrow we think we're going to come and shift everything, that's just not going to happen. But the other thing too is i think so often as managers, we're too far into the weeds.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah. And we need to step back and step up. And we need to make sure that we're delegating. i think delegation is a skill that every every manager needs to work on. I see delegation as a gift. Right.
00:46:41
Speaker
You're delegating work to help your employees grow and get better. i think accountability is a gift. And I think there's so many things as managers, whether we're new managers or or seasoned managers, that we just don't want to burden people with. Or, you know what?
00:46:58
Speaker
I don't have time to write that policy. I'm too busy answering the 72 emails about questions about the policy. Well, if you're getting 72 emails about the policy, take half a day, rewrite the policy. should not take you that long, but maybe it does.
00:47:15
Speaker
Rewrite the policy. so then maybe you're clarifying and maybe you're not getting 72 emails next week about the policy. So sometimes we need to pause to fix the root of the fire as opposed to just constantly be you know, with the fire extinguisher as it's it's blazing out of control. And I think...
00:47:33
Speaker
And oftentimes as managers, we think, I don't have time to do that. I'm i'm in the middle of it right now. And it's like, but why? Why are you in the middle of it? And how are you fanning the flames as opposed to tamping them out or or extinguishing them all together?
00:47:48
Speaker
That's such a great reflection question, i think, for all of us, whether you're a manager or not, to even think about. Okay, Katie, I want to move into rapid fire questions. So just quick answers to these ones.
00:48:01
Speaker
If you had to distill your entire leadership philosophy into one sentence, a principle that maybe you would tattoo on every manager's desk, what would it be? Oh my goodness.
00:48:11
Speaker
Oh my goodness. It truly, it's, you know, leadership is a lifelong journey. You're constantly growing and learning as you go. That's great. What is one management tool that changed the game for you?
00:48:23
Speaker
I wish I had working genius assessment early in my career. Understanding where people gain energy yeah where where people get energy and where they're drained helps you just understand your people so much.
00:48:35
Speaker
Yes, working genius. My favorite of all the like leadership tests and personality quizzes you can take. Okay. What is one underrated leadership skill that no one's talking about? You know, it is really interesting when I do sessions, people don't really fully understand psychological safety versus trust.
00:48:53
Speaker
And psychological safety is that we all feel safe in the organization, not just a few of us. And I think we need to work harder to create a psychologically safe environment for everyone. Where can I go to learn more about psychological safety?
00:49:05
Speaker
So Amy Edmondson is the mother of psychological safety. It was her doctoral research that she did in hospitals. So she has books on it. She has an amazing TED talk on it, but it's the foundation of really a functional team. Like Patrick Lencioni says trust is the foundation, but that was before psychological safety existed before she she discovered it.
00:49:27
Speaker
And so i when I do five dysfunctions of a team, it's trust and psychological safety. Oh, fun. Okay. What is one leadership lesson that you had to learn the hard way?
00:49:39
Speaker
You don't always have to be right. yeah Sometimes you can just keep it to yourself. I can relate to that. ah What is one thing that people most often get wrong about leadership? Yeah.
00:49:50
Speaker
Oh, so often in leadership, we're so focused on how we're motivating our team. How do we motivate our team? Let's have a pizza party. Let's, you know, let's give them more money. Let's, you know, give them a day off.
00:50:01
Speaker
But what we need to focus on is what's demotivating them. On day one, they were excited to come to work. And as we chip away at their motivation, that's what we need to understand because no pizza is going to fix a unhealthy or toxic work environment. So stop focusing on motivation and figure out what's demotivating your people.
00:50:21
Speaker
Oh, so were good, Katie. Okay. We love hot takes at AFA. We love to ask bold opinions. What is a hot take or unconventional opinion that you have about leadership?
00:50:32
Speaker
Well, two real quick. One is not everyone should be a people leader. And so organizations have to understand that we need to set people up for success. And so in order to promote people, we're putting people in positions to fail if the only way for them to move throughout their career is to be a people leader.
00:50:51
Speaker
Not everyone should be a people leader. The real hot take that I am on right now and that I am enjoying talking about and training about and developing about is... Generation Z is such a fantastic, amazing, wonderful generation. And we have to learn how to leverage the skills they have.
00:51:11
Speaker
They're in such a tough tough spot right now. And we're really at the height of where we've all been in our in our generational journey. We're hearing so much kids these days.
00:51:22
Speaker
We were all there. we were all young and dumb. We all made mistakes. This generation is just more vocal than we were in the past. And we've got to celebrate and love them because they are doing great things. And so stop firing them. Stop not hiring them. Stop.
00:51:41
Speaker
This is going to be a soapbox for me because I just think they're so fantastic. Learn to leverage them. Learn to love them. Learn to grow them. Understand that they're coming in lacking some skills. It's not their fault.
00:51:54
Speaker
It's our role in organizations to grow them. And with a little love and a little kindness and a little compassion and a little empathy and every other word that I can throw in there, they're going to rock your organization faster than any generation before.
00:52:11
Speaker
That is so encouraging and such – I wish it wasn't a hot take, but I appreciate you sharing it. It is a platform and soapbox that I have put myself on.
00:52:22
Speaker
i tell people I'm doing the research because that's who I am. i don't I don't just speak unless I've done the research, but also I have a case study with the students that I get to work with, with you all, with the student-athletes that I work with, and in my own house, and 23-year-old. And – I'm able to ask them and their friends all the time, what are you doing?
00:52:42
Speaker
what are you thinking? and then how we leverage that in organizations. Mm-hmm. Phenomenal. Well, great. Well, Katie, this has been wonderful. At AFA, we're all about building bridges. So where can people connect with you, learn more about what you do and your brand?
00:52:58
Speaker
I appreciate that. Well, my website is very easy. It's katiervin.com. but People always ask why it's not something different. It's because Catalyst Development was going to cost me $10,000. So Katie Ervin was 75 cents.
00:53:11
Speaker
um Hopefully it'll be worth $10,000 one day ah So katiervin.com or you can find me on LinkedIn at Dr. Dr. Katie Irvin. And I love to connect with everyone. I always tell people, whether it's on a podcast speaking or the long-term engagements, you're not done with me until you want to be.
00:53:29
Speaker
My value in life, where I measure my success is having success. positive impacts on people's lives. So if I can help, support, cheer, love, care, that is the gift that that others get to give me.
00:53:41
Speaker
Yes. Well, I think you have absolutely done that in our conversation today. i do have a question that we didn't get to, but I want to ask. So this is maybe like a PS of this podcast. I think I saw on LinkedIn that your word of the year is cultivate.
00:53:54
Speaker
And we're on the Cultivating Leaders podcast. So I was wondering if you could tell us why you picked that word and what it's meaning to you this year. Yeah, I know. I love it. As I was preparing for the podcast, I'm like, I love that it's cultivating leaders because, because my word is cultivate.
00:54:09
Speaker
um And I spent all of December and everyone, you know, you do your own reflections at your time, whether it's the end of the year or on your birthday or whatever. But I spent the whole month of December visualizing what I wanted to look like in December of 2025. What is that?
00:54:25
Speaker
What does that look like? What was I missing in 2024? um And what did I want to bring more into my life? And so I'm not a big journaler, but I was just like spouting all of this stuff on paper and everything. And then i opened chat GPT and I just put all of my successes for 2024, everything I wanted 2025.
00:54:42
Speaker
everything i wanted twenty twenty five What did I want it to look like? And it it came back and said, you want to work on relationships, you want to work on your business, and you want to work on yourself.
00:54:53
Speaker
um And so through a whole lot of reflection, I came up with the word cultivate. So I am cultivating relationships, doing meaningful things, more time on the golf course, more time with my my girlfriends, more time with my family, cultivating myself, which is not just going for walks, but it's reading more books,
00:55:11
Speaker
Learning more, growing more, and then cultivating my business, which is not just my bank account, which is super nice. But how am I, you know, bringing my brand, bringing my work, bringing my research, bringing who I am out into organizations and helping them thrive?
00:55:28
Speaker
And so that's where I come to the word cultivate. And people can't see it, but it's on my desktop. I have a tree that says cultivate relationships, cultivate opportunities, cultivate myself.
00:55:39
Speaker
Everything I do this year is about cultivation. And if it's not, maybe it's for next year, but it's it's a no this year. Okay. that was I'm so glad we got the opportunity to talk through that because i think your description and your vision and your word of this year, it really fits with what this podcast is all about. And i think cultivating leaders and growing as a leader is about growing yourself, growing your relationships with other people, and of course, growing the businesses that we all serve. So perfect ending to a wonderful conversation, Katie. i am so grateful that our folks got to learn from you and hopefully now we'll connect with you
00:56:15
Speaker
Shameless plug. I have enjoyed working with Katie. She is great in organizations. We cannot recommend her enough. So if you are a listener, please go check her out. We can't recommend her enough. Thanks for listening to the Cultivating Leaders podcast brought to you by Agriculture Future of America.
00:56:31
Speaker
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