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Episode 1: Work Life Balance; Unicorn or Reality?
105 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to the Rule Followers Podcast where hosts Sarah Thompson and Jaimie Ridgewood examine commonly held beliefs, life rules (both self imposed and society imposed), deconstruct them and hopefully live a little bit more in the gray.
Diving in to the myth of Work Life Balance, Jaimie and Sarah give personal antidotes and bring a refreshing new perspective to how you can "do it all"...or can you?
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Transcript
Introduction to Rule Followers Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
It is our first episode. I hope that stays. We'll see as I'm editing it. This will be a great bloopers reel at the end.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello friends. Welcome to the Rule Followers podcast. My name is Jamie. I'm Sarah. This is a podcast where we examine commonly held beliefs, life rules, self-imposed and society imposed and deconstruct them, re-examine them and hopefully live a little bit more in the gray.
Origins and Challenges of Work-Life Balance
00:00:40
Speaker
Today's rule is about the expectations of work-life balance or work-life integration. Oh, that's awesome.
00:00:52
Speaker
I am so pumped for this first podcast. It's going to be great people. This has been in the works for a very long time. So the fact that we're finally here is a glorious moment. In case you needed to know about our credentials when it comes to being rule followers, we are both type one Enneagrams.
00:01:14
Speaker
Anygram type one Virgo type a all the types that make me sound like an anal retentive person That is me Sarah. I'm an Aries So I don't know if that's really a rule follower thing, but it definitely makes anything I do a little bit spicy
00:01:32
Speaker
Ooh, it is in your nature to question authority and follow your gut. So really what this tells you is that when I make my own moral beliefs, when I make my own rules, nobody can tell me anything different. So we're going to talk a little bit about the origin of work-life balance.
Historical Context and Unrealistic Expectations
00:01:52
Speaker
It started as a topic in the 1970s and 80s.
00:01:57
Speaker
because baby boomers were starting to get overworked and had less time for their family life and hobbies.
00:02:06
Speaker
So there started to be this talk in the workplace from businesses being like, okay, how do we get our employees to be happier? How do we help them have this so-called balance? And back then, as well as today, they started to use a term called integration because they didn't like that
00:02:30
Speaker
when you said work-life balance, it sort of pitted the two against each other. So they didn't like that it's like, okay, there's work, and then you have your life. They wanted it to be more like, no, work is a part of your life. So how can we integrate that? How can we create workplaces that are flexible enough to make people happy, essentially? So that's fascinating. Yeah, because I feel like they didn't do shit about it.
00:02:57
Speaker
I mean, yeah, we live in a capitalist society, so. I feel like that was like a, that's a great note, Peggy. Put it on the notes and we'll look at it next week and then it never happened. And then of course with us as entrepreneurs, it's a little bit different because we're creating our own integration of work and life. But yeah, what are your thoughts on general work-life balance on how you see it played out in the world? I truly think that it is
00:03:26
Speaker
a magical unicorn, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, like it's just not real. I truly believe that work-life balance is not real in the capitalistic society that we have right now. I think that so many people are miserable and struggling because in order to go to work and have a paycheck, especially if you have children, you have to have someone watch those children and you have to pay someone.
00:03:48
Speaker
to watch those children and childcare is exceptionally and exorbitantly expensive. So then you're torn between and especially for women, do you quit your job and just be at home because really it doesn't make sense for you to go out and basically earn money to pay the other person to raise your child.
00:04:03
Speaker
And then you have single parents who are stuck between a rock and a hard place. And if they're in a situation where they don't have family support or they have a job that doesn't provide on-site childcare, which I know some companies do, it's just...
00:04:19
Speaker
It's a nightmare. If my husband and I didn't have the jobs that we had, I don't know how we would do it.
Personal Experiences and Proposed Solutions
00:04:26
Speaker
It's pretty wild. So being a wedding photographer, my high season, obviously, as you know, being a videographer is summer season. And my husband is a high school teacher. So he has summers off. So we have childcare built in very well. And then we have in our we have a nanny care two days a week.
00:04:43
Speaker
And I can tell you right now, running my own business, that is not enough time, not enough time. So it's like in between naps, like all those things, like I'm doing emails, I'm chasing down, you know, my own to do list, trying to take care of my house. And I just, I truly don't think we've set up society to have work life balance. And that is my very long winded answer to you. If we're painting the ideal picture of what work life balance would look like.
00:05:12
Speaker
What does that look like to you? In general, I think that child care should be subsidized and I think that we should have four-day work weeks. We work 32 hours a week and there's a cap. I think that we start doing distribution of wealth where we're not having CEOs making 400 times what boots on the ground are making.
00:05:33
Speaker
There's just so much set up in society to where it separates people by class, by paycheck. And unless you're in this upper 1%, you really don't have the freedom, like the financial freedom to have work life balance. I think that that's ultimately what it comes down to is people just don't have the financial choice to have that balance. And there's a reason why our society is so sick, both physically, mentally, emotionally, we just don't have
00:05:59
Speaker
the support system. So work-life balance looks like a society that supports families and supports the individual and ensures that, and I'm not talking like about socialism, but making sure that people have enough money to, I don't know, buy groceries, have a roof over their head that doesn't cost 50% of their paycheck. There's just so much that we as a society have just been pushing for more, better, faster now. And our greed has really made the world very unlivable for a lot of people.
00:06:30
Speaker
I think a lot of what you're talking about is not going to be solved so quickly.
Integrating Work into Daily Life
00:06:34
Speaker
Of course not. Or so easily. So I think an ideal scenario would be creating a world where work is a valuable part of your day-to-day life. I don't know necessarily what that would look like because it would have to be case by case, business by business essentially. What is your case look like?
00:06:58
Speaker
I mean, I think it's easier for us a little bit because we're entrepreneurs. So we get to design what our days look like, whereas other people don't. But for instance, when I was working a day job, and the last day job I had, I worked at a university bookstore. I did invoicing. And while there were definitely aspects of it that I couldn't wait to escape from at the end of the day,
00:07:25
Speaker
I feel like I made it an enjoyable part of my life by making good friendships, by finding ways to enjoy the work I was doing, by looking to see the value I was providing.
00:07:41
Speaker
I spent a lot of time flipping my mindset to, okay, what I'm doing is helping someone. What I'm doing could be made fun or whatever it was. I was just trying to basically change the way I thought about it so that it wasn't, okay, I get up at 7 a.m. and I go to work from 8 to 5.
00:08:03
Speaker
and that is just a piece of my life that I hate, that's not what I want. So I think in an ideal scenario, if we're not gonna radically change the world overnight, then maybe it's up to, which this is not really in line with a lot of my beliefs, but maybe it's up to the individual to figure out a way to make work and life be that integrated. Yeah, I totally see what you're saying. It's like you have to find the perspective
00:08:33
Speaker
that allows you to exist inside of both. And I think that that's a really beautiful train of thought to you know, I always tell so I teach at the university here in Seattle that I went to for commercial photography and
00:08:47
Speaker
I always tell all my students, this could also be another episode, but the choose something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. I think that is a total lie. I think you'll just enjoy the work because being a worker of any sort in any capacity is you are a problem solver. Someone's hungry. You're flipping burgers to feed them. Someone needs to buy a book. You're the bookkeeper that helps them find it, you know, whatever it is. And for us, it is people want their days documented on their wedding day. And we're the ones that provide that.
00:09:16
Speaker
So no matter what the work is, there will always be work, but it's the mindset you walk into it with, which will change the experience you have with what's going to happen that day. I have a sibling, my only sibling, my sister, who works at a very large corporate company and
00:09:36
Speaker
I don't necessarily think that that is a thought process that she goes through at any point at any time during her day. I think that for those of us in the millennial generation who are raised by Gen X, like work is a work. It's a job. You go and you pay for your life. And that is all it was. And I think that our generation is kind of the first ones that were like,
00:09:58
Speaker
Hey, I don't think it needs to be like this. And then Gen Z is taking it to a whole nother level where like every meeting room has beanbag chairs and like a soda fountain. All of that to say to like kind of summon up is I agree that there is a personal mindset shift that you have to have. And especially with life, cause I think that sometimes we think that work is getting in the way of life, but then life is getting in the way of work because oftentimes in a society like what we have is like, we kind of value ourselves based on our paycheck.
00:10:26
Speaker
because paycheck means that we provide value. It's a figure attached to the value that we bring. If you get paid more for a job, you feel more highly valued and that makes you think higher of yourself.
00:10:41
Speaker
And that changes your mindset around doing that job. And how many times have we gone to a wedding where we're like, Oh my God, this person booked us like years ago, they got such a cheap rate. And you just don't feel very valued. But then you go to another client who paid triple the cost and you feel highly, highly valued.
00:10:58
Speaker
So the other day you sent this post in our biz conversation thread, and I thought it would be interesting to talk about it. So the post says you are 100% replaceable at work. You're not replaceable at home. If you died tomorrow, your job would replace you in a week. Your family would never get over at home as your real life. Keep that perspective. Work hard, but be fully present when you're home.
00:11:25
Speaker
Tell me your thoughts when you initially sent it and then we can talk about maybe how our views have evolved around it or I'll tell you what I responded. Okay, you can tell me what you think.
00:11:36
Speaker
the point of our conversations is to find that gray area.
Debate on Replaceability and Personal Value
00:11:39
Speaker
So I think that, again, it's unique because as entrepreneurs, we are the business. I am the person that holds your wedding images. So if I died, that's going to be very effective on someone and someone's going to have to pick up that where I left off and deliver those images.
00:11:56
Speaker
But when I think we're thinking of that post spoke as if it's speaking about the person who works in the boxing line at Amazon, the person who is your barista at Starbucks, those jobs, blue collar work is very replaceable. Like they kind of use people like little machines.
00:12:14
Speaker
And I think that that is very true because of how many times I've seen people be fired. I was fired and instantly replaced. Like there was no intrinsic value that they were like, no, no, no, we need Sarah for this. But when I come home, I am the only me in that role. You are Laz's only mother. I am JoJo's only mother. And so that is an irreplaceable role.
00:12:38
Speaker
But me being a barista at Starbucks is very replaceable. Like someone can come in the next day or like if I call out sick that can be replaced. I'm not replaceable at a wedding currently unless I have someone who's my backup and can come shoot but technically I am irreplaceable there. So I think there's a lot of nuance to it but I think it is just a good reminder that
00:12:58
Speaker
For those people who believe that their life gets in the way of work, which gets in the way of their paycheck, which for them feels like getting in the way of their value, this is a good reminder that your true value does not lie within what the corporate America is giving you. Part of the mindset switch has to be around the fact that maybe to a corporation like Starbucks, a barista as a role is replaceable.
00:13:27
Speaker
But I think as people, we need to know we're not replaceable. Maybe to your other teammates at Starbucks, you aren't replaceable. You had training. You had a certain personality that made the team work hard or whatever it is, you know, I'm just saying I don't think it's as easy as saying I'm replaceable because I do a menial job.
00:13:51
Speaker
I'm probably not replaceable to the people that I work with, to the customers that I serve, to whatever it is, even if I am replaceable to the corporation itself. One thing that struck me in that post, which we've kind of touched on, is they say like, well, work isn't your real life.
00:14:12
Speaker
Which I think this is kind of a commonly held belief that it's like work is this very separate thing that I do and then my real life is when I'm interacting with people that aren't co-workers or I'm you know taking care of my family or whatever it is and unless the world is gonna change tonight like that's just not the case work is a part of our real life because we actually spend a
00:14:36
Speaker
majority of our time there for most of us. Spend as much time there as you do asleep in your bed. And I think I would pause it to you. I think that also brings up another mindset that some people have. You call them like weekend warriors, where it's like they literally work the job to pay for their life. And it's because they're not doing meaningful work.
00:14:59
Speaker
They are a janitor because not by choice, but maybe that was the only job they could get. They are a data entry person and that is to me extremely soul sucking. And I have friends who are in jobs right now where they don't love the work. It's just not meaningful and like, yeah, they have a positive perspective because I like my coworkers. I like this. I like my benefits. I like all that.
00:15:21
Speaker
But it's down to personality. I could never be a weekend warrior. I have to enjoy the work. And if I don't enjoy the work or I don't enjoy the people, I become a very bitter person very, very quickly. And I think that stems from a history of my dad has worked the same job his entire life and
00:15:41
Speaker
He was miserable. He's still miserable. The man refuses to retire because he doesn't know what to do in retirement, but he is so miserable in his work, but he only does it because it's a paycheck. But then he's like, I don't like my coworkers and I don't like this. And I'm like, dad, why are you still working there? And it just, oh, so, okay. So what do we do for the people who do work menial jobs, who don't enjoy the work?
00:16:06
Speaker
who don't have the mindset of I want to integrate this, they literally see it as this is a means to an end because I just need to pay for my top ramen or whatever it is that they're having. I would say what I was doing was data entry and I've done strictly data entry jobs before.
00:16:25
Speaker
And one of the ways that I made it better was I would listen to books, audio books. I mean, you know me, I love books. I love being in those worlds. So that made, that made my time valuable to me, in addition to me performing a valuable duty.
00:16:45
Speaker
That just means you're a really good person because you were able to do that. I think it takes a lot of maturity though for someone to decide that they have the choice of happiness and I think that's where the gray is.
00:17:00
Speaker
Sometimes you are just in a circumstance where you kind of just have to grind it out and like that's okay. Everyone has those jobs every hopefully everyone has had those jobs where it's like you kind of learn the value of what it means to do meaningful work versus kind of putting your dues in and having to do these other types of jobs that don't necessarily intrinsically bring
00:17:23
Speaker
puppy dogs
Struggles and Unique Challenges for Entrepreneurs
00:17:24
Speaker
and rainbows and happy fluffy feelings, you have to kind of like BYOE, bring your own energy as Callie from Peloton would tell me every day when I have to do.
00:17:32
Speaker
a crap ton of squats and my butt hurts by the end. But I think that's where it comes in is that whole post. It definitely is how you perceive it. But I think going back to your original perspective of integration, because we spend so much time at work, it truly is a huge part of our lives. And for us as entrepreneurs, we're so lucky because we choose work that we enjoy.
00:17:54
Speaker
because we have the ability to change it as we need. We can think something that I hated about working at a corporation was that like it took forever to implement something new because you had all this bureaucracy to work through. But as solopreneurs, we can do fun shit all the time. You can be like, oh, I'm going to try this new software or I'm going to go buy a new camera. Like there's just all this really fun perspective, which I definitely just did do. I think it just it comes down to maturity level and like where you're at and emotionally and how you can
00:18:24
Speaker
see the perspective of the world you're currently living in. I mean, part of the reason why I wanted to talk about work-life balance is specifically as entrepreneurs, we get into this place where we end up not being able to set our work down, which is definitely something I struggle with, partly because I do love my work so much. Every part of it, even, you know,
00:18:50
Speaker
I love being, in addition to being a videographer, I love being a VA. I love doing the back end of business. I love answering emails. I love doing all that stuff, but sometimes what happens is I end up choosing work over other things.
00:19:06
Speaker
Over not necessarily like doing the duties of being a mother but maybe being on my phone more than i should when my family is around i think for myself as an entrepreneur especially this season in a way it was a whole new learning curve because this is the first year i was a mom and.
00:19:25
Speaker
It was, I really understood the amount of freedom and flexibility we have this year by being able to be so flexible around Joe, around just anything that would come up. So from breastfeeding to sleep regressions to having to go to the emergency room for a really severe diaper rash. There's so much flexibility in what we have and like the choices that we make. And this year I chose to like take on less work during the summer.
00:19:50
Speaker
which ended up completely snowballing in the late summer into fall and overworking myself, but feeling the need like, Oh, I need to bring in more money because I didn't have enough weddings, because I specifically chose that because I'm a mom. I think overall, despite like the nuances of how I chose to schedule myself this year, I think the thing that I walked away with was just how beautiful the flexibility and freedom is like, that is never lost on me. And especially when I think about my friends or my sister who is in a typical nine to five, like there is
00:20:20
Speaker
That does not exist. People who are in certain jobs are treated like a robot that is there to clock in, clock out, and get the work done because you're working for someone else's dream. You're a cog in the wheel. That's the system you sign up to be a part of when you join things like that. The nature of the beast. I think that's just the nature of the beast when you're talking about
00:20:43
Speaker
Choosing a type of work that might yield a much higher paycheck, but then you lose a lot of the freedom, the scariness of entrepreneurship gives you.
Prioritizing Family Time Over Work
00:20:54
Speaker
How do you think, I mean, do you think your balance was good this year? Or do you think? Abso-fucking-lily-not, no. I think in some ways it was, and in some ways it wasn't. Like I have really developed this skill to be able to shut off my work brain now, as soon as Joe gets home. I know deadlines are there and shit sucks that I'm behind, but my priority is being present with my daughter because she's only going to be so little for so long. For my own wellbeing, I don't think I balanced well at all.
00:21:23
Speaker
And I think there's a lot of things I learned that I will be implementing for next year. Yeah, so talk through those things.
00:21:30
Speaker
So what are you gonna do to fix your life? So the biggest thing is I was watching some YouTube videos from people in our industry about their workflows. And Caitlin James has like a really interesting way of how she culls her images and when she does it, and she culls backwards. So she goes from reception to getting ready, because we all know that we love the beginning part of the day photos, usually a lot more.
00:21:57
Speaker
that having to get through like family ceremony and reception. Um, so she makes it like a reward to get through the hard stuff first. And she's like, and also normally your better shots are always at the end of a series anyways. So instead of like over culling and keeping the first couple of frames, cause you don't know if you got it, you know, you're picking your best frames first.
00:22:19
Speaker
and just like so next year when it comes to like a wedding day normally I take one wedding a weekend now and then Mondays are usually my CEO days so those are the days where it's whatever I need to get done in terms of like a doctor's appointment grocery shopping meal prepping like that is Sarah's day but I think what I'm going to do is block off the first two hours of the day
00:22:46
Speaker
to call the wedding that just happened or do it the day after, but it has to happen sometime within the first 48 hours that I'm going to call the entire wedding versus just like a preview. Cause I feel like I do the previews cause obviously everyone wants to see their photos, but then it like, it does take an emotional toll to like bring yourself back to then go through the whole thing again. And sometimes you end up double cooling and like picking things that are too close and then you've over cold and it's just like a fucking hot mess. So I think,
00:23:14
Speaker
making better workflows.
Improving Workflows and Client Relationships
00:23:15
Speaker
So I'm on top of my work a lot faster and not waiting till like, Oh, I know this is due next week. I should probably get on it, which dear God, I hope our clients are not listening to this. Um, but sometimes it becomes that way because you're shooting so much. You just don't have time to do the processing work. And I think that really reevaluating what is a realistic turnaround time, adjusting those inside of my contracts. What is a realistic amount of shooting I should be doing? What is a realistic amount of like,
00:23:44
Speaker
money I should be paid for this time if I'm trying to reduce like all those types of things. So I think this December is going to be a lot about reflecting on the year in that sort of sense because I think
00:23:56
Speaker
I've gotten to a point now in my career where I am very comfortable with setting more boundaries because for me, it's a lot about money mindset and knowing that the work will come, the money will come. But if I'm not being a good business owner, which means I'm not treating my clients well, I'm not on time for deliveries, who the hell should hire me? No one because that's not a good client experience. And I've always, always, always preached like having a good client experience. And this year, I'm going to be completely honest, I was not at 100.
00:24:23
Speaker
when it comes to that. Those are the things I'm really going to change. And then just really developing time blocking around the days I have childcare and the days that I don't have childcare and like, what does a realistic schedule look like? I don't know, maybe talking to my VA about being my email answer or like, I'm her VA in case you were wondering.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, Jamie has to look at my inbox that I sometimes hide from. And she's like, hey, by the way, you really need to answer this email. And I'm like, okay. So that's what that looks like for me. What about you?
00:24:59
Speaker
I would say in general, I do a pretty good job of balancing the two, partly because I am not a perfectionist despite being a type 1 Enneagram. I'm actually not a perfectionist. So that helps me a lot because it means I'm not spending 30 minutes crafting an email, which I've watched people do that. I don't know if that's you, but my husband.
00:25:23
Speaker
Hopefully, he doesn't mind me saying this, but I've watched him spend 30 minutes to write a paragraph, email back to someone, and it would take me 30 seconds. Part of it is the quickness with which I do things. I've always been a really fast reader and writer, so that helps with just basic life stuff.
00:25:45
Speaker
but something that I am trying to do better is actually more on the life side where I figure out a way to turn off my work brain because there are times when I'm like playing with my kid and find myself thinking about work because I enjoy thinking about work, I enjoy talking about work, I enjoy all this stuff and not giving him my full attention brings all the emotions of guilt and shame and just
00:26:14
Speaker
I'm a bad mom or whatever it is.
Balancing Marriage and Work
00:26:17
Speaker
So that is something I'm working on. Which is not true. Let's just say that for the record here on the interwebs. It is not true, Jamie. Thank you. Currently most of my outside of last time is filled with work, which has definitely grated on my husband a little bit. And then in the summers it's even harder because then weekends, you know, we're shooting.
00:26:42
Speaker
I had one weekend free between May and October this year. Literally, I had no true focus on my marriage or my life besides the times when I was focusing on laws.
00:26:57
Speaker
It's something I'm reevaluating for sure. I think a lot of people suggest finding ways to outsource kind of like you're talking about, but for me it would be to probably this is a time blocking thing, but finding ways to figure out what you're fast and good at and get that shit done first because then it's something checked off the list and you can move on to other things.
Time Management and Daily Rituals
00:27:22
Speaker
I always do fear first. So what's the thing that I'm dreading? And if I can get that out of the way, everything else is smooth. Does it not make you procrastinate? Not if I've set it up. If I've set it up the day before, I'm like, all right, these are the things. And we're going to start with this big thing. If there's an email, I really don't want to answer it. We're going to answer it first thing. Otherwise, it's going to hang over me the rest of the day. So it's like when we get off our recording, I already have my list of three things that I fear that I have to get done.
00:27:47
Speaker
But one thing I was going to say, which could be a really good ending note or the final tips of the day when it comes to separating, if you want to have that true distinction as an entrepreneur between home life and work life so that you're able to turn off the work brain,
00:28:04
Speaker
I've listened to a couple podcasts where they talk about making a closing ritual for the day and whether that is shutting the laptop and closing the door if you have a home office. So you're physically doing something that ends the work. Maybe you're clearing your desk. Maybe you're taking your million coffee cups and putting them in the sink. I think that that could be something that you try. It's like, what's the end of the day ritual you could do to be like, we're done.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's smart. And also probably just being intentional about the time that I do give to Laz as my son. I do give him dedicated time because I've made that a priority, but I need to remake my marriage a priority in busy times of the year as well as the slow times.
Mindset Tips for Work-Life Integration
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, that'll be a definite goal and I think that's a good idea to figure out what an end of day sort of close off will be. Just to kind of summarize our tips for people. And tricks. Tips and tricks.
00:29:08
Speaker
Tips and trickies? Tricks are for kids. As annoying as it is, like everyone says, there's real no true answer to work-life balance. But maybe it's about figuring out work-life integration, what that looks like for you. And I was going to say, mindset is a bit of a buzzword. It can be kind of annoying for people to be like, just switch your mindset, just like change it up. And you're like, yeah, how the fuck do I do that, bro?
00:29:37
Speaker
So what my therapist says is it is literally every single time you sense your brain having a thought that's either negative or whatever it is, rephrase it. Like if you need to say it out loud, fucking say it out loud, but it's basically just rephrasing exactly. So if you're like, I don't want to get up at 5 a.m. or whatever, or I don't want to go to work right now, but you can step outside and be like, wow, this fog in the trees,
00:30:04
Speaker
fucking beautiful. I can't believe I get to live in this world. Yeah, or even changing the mindset of like, I hate my co workers or I hate this task I'm doing. It's like also just being like, I am not enjoying this challenge right now. I just identifying the internal dialogue that's happening or like the thing that's going on inside because I think we're really
00:30:22
Speaker
Like I told my husband, I am going to try to stop using the word stressed. So when Heath is like, how are you feeling about work right now? Instead of being like, oh, I'm stressed out, I'm going to say, I'm feeling really embarrassed and ashamed that I'm behind in my deadlines. And that's really taking a toll on me. Like that's very different than just saying I'm stressed. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Because in your naming it, you're getting it out there.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah, and you're helping like that's also a way of like bringing that integration because if work is not your real life, then you don't have real feelings there. But if you like bring your full self to your work, like then it's like, Oh, no, I, I can still be fully me inside of this like box of work. So this was fun. You're fun. You're fun.
00:31:09
Speaker
All right, rule followers, if you want to follow us on Instagram, you can find us at rule dot followers. That is where we are. We'll be back. We have another fun episode coming up. So please stay tuned. Hit subscribe wherever you find your podcast and we'll see you next week. All right. Love you guys. Bye. Bye.