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Episode 12: Get in Loser, We're Going to Therapy
48 Plays1 year ago
We’ve cried on the couch, ghosted therapists, and wondered if healing is just a lifelong group project. In this episode, we open up about when therapy works, when it doesn’t, and explore whether mental health culture is helping or just becoming another performance.
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Transcript
Feedback and Family Comments
00:00:00
Speaker
but i And we're back. Hello. Hello, friends. Oh, man. What a week. Did you get any ah cute little messages about last week's episode?
00:00:14
Speaker
I didn't because no one in my life apparently pays attention to the fact that we have a podcast, but it's fine. Yeah, I got several text messages from my niece and my sister and Catherine, my lovely mother-in-law, commented on our Instagram, which is because we run our Instagram. So...
00:00:36
Speaker
She messaged and you responded, but I was like, oh, that's my mother-in-law. She did listen to the whole thing.
Reading and Personal Progress
00:00:42
Speaker
I had no idea who that was. i was like, this is so nice. um Yeah, so that's funny. Oh, and Nathan reached out and ah asked if she had listened to it. Lol. Lol.
00:01:01
Speaker
He's like, hmm, book daddies. Let's see how those mother-in-laws are treating this episode. I will say, though, our graphics for that episode stepped in a little bit.
00:01:12
Speaker
I think that was pretty good. we did great. What can I say? i was inspired.
00:01:18
Speaker
We're all inspired by plot men. Yeah. Yeah. We love it. I'm actually, so I am on chapter 50 of Kingdom of Ash.
00:01:30
Speaker
The entire book has 121 chapters, so I'm like nearing the halfway point. It's getting intense, but it's good. ah there any other fun tidbits you want to share? Any updates to life?
Parenting Challenges and Stories
00:01:43
Speaker
Oh, I mean, i'm I'm going through it with Laz right now. Oh, yeah? what's you to What is he up to? He's in Three-Nagerhood
00:01:54
Speaker
We had a very rough day on Sunday. he just, I think he was really tired. So that was part of it, but he's like a very kind, empathetic kid typically.
00:02:06
Speaker
and it was just him yelling no at me all the time. and then anytime he got told no, just full on tantrum stomping on the ground, you know, trying to hit you like,
00:02:19
Speaker
Just very intense. And then there was one moment during the day where he like wasn't listening. We were outside. It wasn't necessarily safe what he was doing. So I like told him that if he did it again, I was going to have to pick him up and take him inside. And he did it again.
00:02:31
Speaker
So I picked him up and he was just wailing on my head, like with his fist. So he's, we had a very good day yesterday though. So it's not every day, but it's just like,
00:02:45
Speaker
What a time. What a time. What a time to be alive.
Therapy: Normalization and History
00:02:50
Speaker
JoJo has discovered the if mommy says no, daddy she's going to go try Dada.
00:02:56
Speaker
wow So like yesterday, I had made this delicious Greek pasta salad because it was hot outside. And I just thought like a nice cold pasta salad sounded great.
00:03:07
Speaker
yeah And JoJo loves cucumbers and tomatoes. i was like, oh, she'll love this. No, she didn't want to eat anything. She was like, I want chips because we have like those pop corners.
00:03:19
Speaker
And she goes, I want I want the blue bag. And I'm like, honey, we don't have any more chips. Like we're going to have dinner. And like she looks at me and it's like she takes a second to realize that she's not going to get anywhere with me. So then she walks literally around the table to Heath's side and it's like, Dada, I want some chips.
00:03:38
Speaker
And he's like, what did your mother say? I want some chips. And like, she just kept trying to play him. Like i oh man. So she's kind of like getting to that point where she can really reason with you. And she loves, we have this really funny game where she loves to like talk or yell in opposites.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm like, all right, Baba, it's time to go upstairs. Time to go tonight. She goes, I stay downstairs. I'm like, you go upstairs. And i it's not like malicious or anything. it's just like this cute little opposition. And we'll do it about anything, like going inside, putting your pants on, like being in the bath. like And it's just silly because I think she just likes the fact that she knows how to argue in a way. But like it's never like in defiance, which is really nice. Yeah. She's still...
00:04:27
Speaker
sweet well and laz is he does you know sometimes when kids do that you can give them two options right like she says i'm going to downstairs you say well you can walk up the stairs or i'll carry you up the stairs and like you get to choose but now laz has just gotten to the point where he's like neither no no
00:04:50
Speaker
And you're like, I'm sorry, what? and then No, I am the adult. Yeah, I had to listen to my parents. You have to listen to me. Yeah, it is so fascinating, like raising small creatures. And you're just like, how do I do this without scarring you or doing what my parents did?
00:05:08
Speaker
Which, you know, honestly leads us into today's topic, guys, where we are going to talk about therapy. And is therapy for everyone? as millennials, I feel like for our generation, therapy is a lot more normalized. So I thought it would be kind of fun to like go through and kind of like talk a little bit about the history of therapy or...
00:05:29
Speaker
the idea of therapy outside of like it just being for crazy people and like kind of go through like the last last hundred years of like how it's evolved and then I have some good talking points for us and I really want to hear like your experience with therapy I can talk about mine then we can kind of dive in from there what do you think sounds great Cool.
00:05:49
Speaker
Okay, guys. So basically, in the early nineteen hundreds to kind of like the 1950s, we kind of get Freud and psychoanalysis. Like therapy begins as something that's more for like the elites, rich people, people.
00:06:05
Speaker
educated people in Europe and in the U.S. And for like around that time period, we were just exiting World War II. And so after the war, like the U.S. specifically saw a rise in trauma treatment, which they at the time called shell shock, which was for all the soldiers who had experienced war. And then like the stigma around it was still pretty high because they didn't understand that like just how much the mental psyche could weigh upon you as a person in your day-to-day experience. And like not necessarily means that you're crazy, but it could drive you crazy if you didn't seek help for it.
00:06:41
Speaker
So then in like the 1960s and 70s, we get what's called like the human potential movement. And this is where Carl Rogers had the um this thing called humanistic therapy and it introduced more of an empathetic, person-centered approach.
00:06:57
Speaker
and We also had like the – I'm sure you've heard like the counterculture. um So that era of like self-exploration, consciousness, everyone was smoking weed, everyone was doing drugs and being like, whoa, there's so much out there in the universe. Yeah.
00:07:12
Speaker
and So that kind of started to break the norms around like like exploring the psyche and like its impacts on your day-to-day life. um Again, it's still kind of like...
00:07:25
Speaker
Group therapy and encounter groups became more popular for like self-awareness and growth, but not really necessarily dealing with mental illness. And then in 1980s and ninety s was the self-help boom and daytime talk shows.
00:07:40
Speaker
So we're talking Oprah, Dr. Phil, which I definitely watched every day after school in elementary with my mother. Yeah. And I feel like Dr. Phil definitely turned into like a reality show over the years, which is horrible. But Oprah, I feel like state kept it classy. and Dr. Phil did not.
00:07:59
Speaker
um So in that time where we had like all these daytime shows coming out, it was also like the self-help book explosion. um Therapy became much more accessible. There was still a little bit lingering stigma, especially among men and older generations, but women and younger adults were starting to adapt to it. And then we have...
00:08:18
Speaker
For our generation, the normalization through media and millennials, um through our TV shows, films, The Sopranos, Good Will Hunting, normalizing therapy in characters, we started to prioritize our mental health and talking about it more openly because we saw that our parents were extremely emotionally unavailable.
00:08:38
Speaker
So we're like, hey, we don't want to repeat that pattern. um Again, with the rise of social media, I think that also played a big part in normalizing therapy because people just started talking online about what they were going through. And I think that was a really great touching point for everyone to connect on.
00:08:53
Speaker
And then when the 2020s happened and we had COVID, and there was a massive surge in therapy due to isolation, grief, anxiety, people just not knowing what to do during that time. And also the majority of healthcare treatment, if you weren't like dying of COVID, turned into teletherapy so you were are sorry telehealth.
00:09:15
Speaker
um So doing all of your appointments online. So that became a great opening for therapy to be more accessible Yeah. and so you'll see things on podcasts that are sponsored by betterhelp or talkspace and these are great platforms some of which i've actually tried myself and it's a great way to be able to connect with your therapist they have therapist where you can meet in person, online, texting,
Generational Views on Therapy
00:09:39
Speaker
email. like There's just so many like variations of how you can interact with a therapist. So I like how that's a lot more accessible.
00:09:46
Speaker
um But yeah, so now we're kind of in the era of having a lot of TikTok and Instagram therapists and the emotional language of therapy speak or gaslighting, trauma bonding, boundaries. like These are lots of big words that we hear and there's a lot of feelings behind them. Trust me, I have mine too.
00:10:06
Speaker
um And I guess the final piece of the history that I will state is that Gen z views therapy as essential, not optional. So bringing you guys up to speed, that's kind of how mental health and therapy moved through at least the western Western pop culture from the early to now the twenty twenty s yeah thoughts it seems to me like a natural progression of like something's new so people are unsure about it and then you see the benefits of it and now you have a generation of people that believe it's like completely essential i and i'm sure at some point it'll make the turn again to being like nobody goes to therapy and you you know it'll a pendulum swing around again probably
00:11:01
Speaker
um But I mean, I grew up in a household with a mom that was a counselor. um so therapy was super encouraged my whole life. So I never, I did see the opposite side of it with some family members who are like staunchly against therapy.
00:11:21
Speaker
But um yeah, I mean, the history and the progression of it makes sense. And i don't necessarily think Gen Z has brought it to a point of overcorrection because I don't think for the most part therapy is like a bad thing.
00:11:39
Speaker
Obviously, there's the question of like people say everyone should be in therapy. And I don't know if that – I don't agree with that. I don't know what you think on it. Well, I want to hear first before we kind of dive into our opinions, if you want to do like a synopsis of like your experience with therapy because I definitely came from the opposite household. So i want to hear about like kind of like your history, what's worked well, what hasn't. Has anything like revolutionary happened? And then – Kind of go into opinions from there.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah. So I, I think I first went to therapy when I was, don't remember, young, pretty young. and it was somebody who specialized in like kid therapy. I'm sure I've shared the story on here before. had a birth mom, got adopted when I was four.
00:12:29
Speaker
She was in and out of my life for a long time. so I just had like early childhood trauma surrounding her in that relationship. And, um, so started going to therapy to address some of those things and then stopped. I can't remember when, honestly,
00:12:46
Speaker
um And that early at childhood therapy is a lot of talking, but it's also like playing games and just like interacting with another adult and like seeing what comes up. It's not necessarily the talk therapy that we know as adults.
00:13:01
Speaker
And then, I think sophomore year of high school, I went back. um My, ah my mom was my birth mom was out of my life from age nine to 15. So I think maybe somewhere between there, I stopped.
00:13:16
Speaker
And then when she kind of came back into my life, I went back to keep dealing with that relationship. And I still think very fondly of that therapist. I saw her until I went to college and she like helped me pick the college I was going to go to. And like, we didn't always have to talk about traumatic things or sometimes it was just like talking about life.
00:13:40
Speaker
And i enjoyed that time. Um, though, even at that age, I often felt like
00:13:49
Speaker
not a stigma for being there, but it was sort of like, It did feel like, okay, something is wrong with me. That's why I need a therapist, even though I've been raised in a very therapy positive household.
00:14:00
Speaker
And then i went back to therapy, not until i had LAS. So like a good, what is that? 12 years. math Wow.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah. So through all my twenties, I didn't go to therapy. Not that I was against it. I just honestly didn't feel like i was interested. and then i had postpartum depression and postpartum. The postpartum rage was the worst part, which is something I still struggle with.
00:14:28
Speaker
That is something I went back for. And I tried three therapists. None of them lasted that long. The
Diverse Therapy Experiences
00:14:38
Speaker
first one, i mean, they were all fine people, like no, nothing against any of them. But I went in every single time knowing exactly what I wanted.
00:14:46
Speaker
And I said, i am pretty self-aware at this point. I know what my issues are. I think through solutions all the time and I just can't motivate myself to try them or I try them and they don't work or, you know,
00:15:00
Speaker
Whatever. And I really need concrete things, tactile tactile things that I can do to work on X, Y, and z I do not need you to just listen and be kind. Like that's not what I want.
00:15:14
Speaker
And every single one of them. eventually got to a point in our conversation, not the first session, but after a couple of months where they would all say the same thing, which is you just need to be kinder to yourself. You just need to have more compassion for yourself, which three therapists are saying it. Maybe it's true, but that is not what I asked for. And in fact, it's exactly opposite of what I asked for. Yeah. Okay. I already know that. Like I need specific moves I can make.
00:15:44
Speaker
to change aspects of my life. So anyway, and got frustrated and started dreading it every, I don't remember if I went to, the last person I saw I had covered by insurance. So I may have seen her every week and yeah, I just dreaded it every single week.
00:16:00
Speaker
And so i was like, i'm I'm not gonna do this anymore. If I'm dreading it it's just not, there's no change that's gonna happen in a conversation that I'm dreading that much.
00:16:13
Speaker
Yep. So that that's my personal history with therapy. And so you're currently not in any therapy, right? Okay.
00:16:25
Speaker
Well, I think that like going in and out of therapists and like finding the right one is kind of like the shittiest part of going into therapy, but it's definitely worth it to find someone. Kudos to you for like literally walking in being like, this is exactly what I need.
00:16:39
Speaker
Please help me. um So in my family so in my family, we had very much the opposite. Like my parents like rarely said, I love you.
00:16:52
Speaker
We weren't and are still not a huggy. touchy-feely family. um My dad is the king of bottling up emotions and he hates it if you try to show empathy or care towards him. like It literally, it's like it makes his skin crawl and he gets very uncomfortable and like leaves the room. It's really weird.
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah. which is interesting because he is a Pisces. And apparently those people are very in touch with their emotions, but apparently he is not. so yeah um But when my mother attempted suicide when I was 13 and she went to rehab for it, like we did one group family counseling session, which I don't even remember us actually discussing anything. And like, they never talked to my sister and I as like individuals or as kids together. Like our parents were always in the room, which I think was very intimidating.
00:17:44
Speaker
Like, how do we speak up in front of our parents? um And so when that happened, we like an ambulance obviously came to our house. We had a very close neighborhood of kids and friends and they all saw this happen. And my sister and I were told to lie to all of our friends about it.
00:18:03
Speaker
so we had to like safeguard this secret. And like it was coined to us as it's not our story to tell. like It's mom's story to tell. And through my therapy, I realized that actually that's complete bullshit. It's also my story because it happened to me and it happened to our family. So I think in my college days is when I started like opening up to my friends about that and being like, hey, this is what like what really happened. Yeah.
00:18:28
Speaker
So I think at an early age, like exploring your feelings wasn't a great thing. But I went through like a really emo phase of my life. And I had had a really bad breakup with a high school boyfriend. And my parents were really concerned about my mental health.
00:18:41
Speaker
So they introduced me to a counselor, saw her for a little bit. She was mostly really gung ho about the book called The Secret, which I don't know if anyone else has read, but it was like super popular.
00:18:53
Speaker
in the early 2000s. So anyway, she had me read that book and like we did some stuff and that was fine. um But I've re-found therapy when I was um dating my husband and we were having some relationship issues and I gave him an ultimatum of like,
00:19:10
Speaker
either we go to therapy or we're done. And so a good man, he chose therapy. So we saw Penelope for two years and she literally saved our relationship. Like, I don't think we would be married and have the wonderful life that we do if we didn't have her. And Penelope actually married us, which was really fun.
00:19:29
Speaker
um And then recently after having Jojo, I also had severe postpartum depression. and so i had been i have been seeing Lynn for two years, um but we're currently on like a little bit of a break because I told her, I was like, look,
00:19:44
Speaker
It's a very busy season in life right now. Weddings are picking up. I'm teaching at the college. you know i am now a WIPA board member. We've reignited the podcast. like There's just a lot happening. And we're also... um we have someone living with us. And so it's important for us to be able to help that person. And like there's just so much happening.
00:20:05
Speaker
And so I was like, I need to take a break because I'm not at the place where I can like do the deep work. Because that's really what I want to work with her on because she is not covered by insurance. So it is very expensive um for me to see her. And every week I just felt like I was coming to her with the same issue, which I know is like means there's a deeper thing we need to get to.
00:20:26
Speaker
But I was like, Lynn, can we just like... meet up at the end of June. like i need a break. like This is just not going to be worth it. So um I really enjoyed... i have enjoyed therapy. I've been very lucky.
00:20:40
Speaker
i did try BetterHelp once during the pandemic. And basically, this was at a point where I had a very contentious relationship with my parents. And I told the therapist I was ready to... like burn the house down. Like I had no interest in a relationship. I just wanted to like give them the what for and basically give a big fuck you and walk away.
00:21:01
Speaker
and she's like, do you really want to do that? And I was like, yes. And she was like trying to give me all these tools to like not burn the house down. and I was just like, i don't think that we are compatible because I need someone to help me burn the house down.
00:21:19
Speaker
um Oh man, it was bad. Um, so thankfully I did not burn the house down, did not give an F you to my parents. Um, And was able to connect with Lynn later on because when you have children, it brings up a ton of stuff about your own childhood. So I'm very thankful to her.
00:21:35
Speaker
i have an amazing relationship with my daughter. it was never about like hating being a mother or you know anything like that or bad feelings towards my daughter. It was just like, holy fuck, what did I just do to my life? like It was a lot of that heavy weight of like my entire life is so different.
00:21:53
Speaker
Um, and there's a lot of responsibility and like your time is not your own anymore. And so I was definitely feeling a loss of identity. So that's my experience with therapy up until this point. And i would say i agree with you in the sentiment of like therapy is not for
Accessibility and Resistance to Therapy
00:22:10
Speaker
everyone. Cause I don't think everyone is wired to be able to deal with their shit. Not everyone needs to go to therapy.
00:22:19
Speaker
Uh, partly because sometimes you just don't have the self-awareness to be able to talk about things, or maybe you haven't experienced that much trauma, or it is like a privileged thing to be able to do because it is often expensive. So it's not, I don't want there to ever be this, like you have to go to therapy and that'd be like the only way that you can heal.
00:22:44
Speaker
Totally. And I think there are – I mean, if we're talking about people, if they aren't self-actualized enough to realize they need it or not in tune with themselves enough, like also telling them that there's like a self-help book in a bookstore or in a library that they can check out and like get a bunch of tools, I don't necessarily know if that is the answer either. Yeah. All I know is that people who have done therapy, I feel like are already people who are wired for empathy, for understanding and for wanting to explore those types of things. I think that some people just have and mostly the older generation, they just do not have the capacity.
00:23:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:29
Speaker
you know big girls big boys don't cry like i know that my parents are definitely that way which is shocking based off of like what's happened in our family over the last like twenty years um It blows my mind. It absolutely blows my mind. And my parents hate it when they like bring up a topic and like I use empathy and reasoning to answer them. And they they really just want you to be like, yeah, fuck that thing too.
00:23:59
Speaker
It's just, oh man. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think I, we, I won't say who it is, but there's a person we both know who tried therapy and is definitely a person that needs, I don't want to say change, but like needs work. Like they need to process things. They need to, yeah, there's just stuff they need to work on, but they probably went to like three sessions and then were basically like, yeah, just like nothing was really helping. Like I didn't really have anything to say.
00:24:33
Speaker
I was like, okay, clearly you're just not ready for this process. Yeah. I feel like that's like a big, like trying to protect yourself because like, for instance, like I know my sister has never gone to therapy.
00:24:47
Speaker
um Sorry, going to out her. um But like a lot of it has to do with like not wanting to revisit that trauma because part of processing it is in a way experiencing it again in and acknowledging that it happened. And I think that a lot of people are very afraid of the pain that comes with therapy because it it does happen and it can re-stimulate a lot of feelings. It can bring up a lot of memories that maybe you have pushed down because you don't want to experience them again.
00:25:14
Speaker
And so like I see that i I get the fear of it. And I think that some people have greater fears or greater reason to have fears than others. Yeah. But it's is such a bummer when people aren't willing to step into that. So when I see people like our friend who who says things like that, i'm like, ooh, there's some deep pain right there if you're not even willing to broach it.
00:25:38
Speaker
Yeah. And not look at yourself and see how the way that you are affects people around you. And unwilling to let somebody else look at that and say, here's what you could do to be like a better human being to those people that you love.
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah, and i I'm rereading the book, um How to Win Friends and Influence People. And like literally that is like one of the, it's in the first chapter where they talk about like, if you want honey, don't kick the beehive. And I feel like um it's about criticism and criticizing others, but they talk about how like humans will do anything to not criticize ourselves because we already have so much pressure on ourselves. Like we don't want to hear it from the outside or admit to guilt. And I think that that is...
00:26:22
Speaker
Definitely very affluent in our – or sorry, apparent in our like individualistic society that is America. like How doth it be my fault when the system – this. And that's not to say that there aren't like systematically oppressive forces in our country. Of course there are. But it's like when people can't even and be like – Yeah, I mix the salt in instead of the sugar and that is my fault. Like, you know, like simple things like that. But yeah um so I was going to say, obviously, we're talking about people that like have tried therapy, didn't work out or refuse to try therapy for whatever reason.
00:27:03
Speaker
What do you think about people who have been doing therapy, but it ends up being like a crutch or like a like a thing that they can keep looking back to, like to stay basically stuck in their issues.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that is another level of hearing ah healing that people aren't willing to step up and into. And so like kind of like what happens is like people become like too soft.
00:27:32
Speaker
And like in a sense, of like it takes a lot of empowerment and a lot of courage and a lot of strength to move on from these things. So when people continue to stay in therapy and not actually change or make any changes, they're kind of living in that like victimhood.
00:27:47
Speaker
Which means they're still getting something out of that behavior, whether that's empathy from those around them, sympathy, kind of being able to like slide or coast. Like there's no taking up of responsibility because even though – even if we have been traumatized or hurt by other people in our lives, like at the end of the day, we do have to be the ones who decide to move on and to change and to do other things because and like there is no one else in charge of us besides ourselves. And so – I think it's just, yeah, people are still getting something out of that victimhood.
00:28:23
Speaker
And I think that a lot of people are very easily susceptible into into slipping into that category because it's easier. It's easy. It's the simple way out.
00:28:34
Speaker
So this is a curiosity that just came to mind as you were talking. What does a well-adjusted, no longer using therapy as a crutch, fix their issues moving forward,
00:28:47
Speaker
Like what does that well-adjusted adult look like?
What Makes Therapy Successful?
00:28:50
Speaker
Do they not bring up their trauma anymore? Do they like, do you have an example for yourself? um I think it is when, yeah, I do have an example for myself. And I think it's when you see the behavior change. Like, um so for myself, like I would get really angry um if anyone, gosh so many things triggered my anger.
00:29:14
Speaker
So let me let me pick a good one. so it's like if So Heath and I would fight about, and sometimes still do, about like household chores, right? And so for me, i would be like, how am I the only person who can see everything that needs to be done in this house? And it would just make me irate.
00:29:31
Speaker
And so I kept having to talk to my therapist about it. like Why am I having such a visceral reaction to this? And so we would talk through all the reasoning as to like why women feel this way, why I feel this way.
00:29:42
Speaker
And what it continues to trigger. And for me, it's like that I'm not good in like, I am not enough for you to be willing to help me care for this house. Like you don't care enough about me or about anything in our relationship to do this thing.
00:29:57
Speaker
And that's obviously not true. So what happened is I was able to stop talking about that subject when I started having a change of thought process. When I would get triggered, I would be able to notice it and be like, okay, what am I actually upset about? Am I upset that the house really is dirty? Or am I upset that I also have X, Y, and Z on my list and I didn't allocate enough time? like Just kind of doing some like self check-ins.
00:30:23
Speaker
And like let's say that I didn't have anything else coming up for me. I was just truly upset about the house. It's like, okay, I can either be passive aggressive and mean to my husband or i can be an adult and say, hey, I'm noticing these things like, can you please do X, Y, Z that you committed to doing? So it's like holding that person accountable and just having better tools in your toolkit to deal with that rage because i don't think that that rage will ever truly go away. i think that it could always be triggered.
00:30:52
Speaker
um But it's like, how do I deal with that? And so for me, that was a real... tell that my therapy had been working, that I was able to identify, find a better solution and act upon it.
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's great. I think that's a great example. And you gave ah great example of tools that you got from therapy and were able to bring into your everyday life. I think if people...
00:31:20
Speaker
are dealing with trauma, maybe not trauma, but depression or
Alternative Mental Health Tools
00:31:25
Speaker
anxiety. I mean, there's other tools as well that we can look to that isn't necessarily having to pay for therapy.
00:31:32
Speaker
um So for me, i know that if I am consistently working out, I feel like a hundred more times able to manage my anger and my frustration towards my kid. I can be like much more of like a, an adult yeah that situation instead of giving in to all of the emotions that he brings up in me.
00:31:58
Speaker
So I think working out is such a great one. It just gets so many like of the positive things Endorphins.
00:32:08
Speaker
um and then the other thing i was going to mention is stuff like meditation because there's a lot of different types of meditation meditations um and you can find stuff on YouTube, you could do research.
00:32:25
Speaker
um But some of them are actually specifically meant to help you deal with trauma and it helps you like process it.
00:32:37
Speaker
Going even more on that side of things, I know there are people that have used psychedelics to also process trauma or go through that, those sort of experiences. um I know someone who did ketamine treatments and it's like a four part series. And literally you have an anesthesiologist that doses you.
00:32:59
Speaker
And that person said it really, really helped. But however, they didn't employ any other tools, but this, this got them out of like a crisis mode where they were like serious, like,
00:33:12
Speaker
Very scary level of depression. um But they haven't started to employ anything else like continued medication or therapy or meditation or anything else. So i think I think what it comes down to is like when you're trying to do alternative things that rather than paying for an actual therapist is like...
00:33:32
Speaker
it just comes it always just comes down to basics. Like, are you moving your body? Are you quieting your mind? Because we constantly have media, phones, everything barking for our attention.
00:33:45
Speaker
Like, have you gotten quiet? Have you gotten out in nature? Are you drinking water? What are you putting into your body? Like, there are so many factors that contribute to the health of your physical body that will contribute to the health of your of your mind. Like so much of depression is actually starting to be related towards gut health, which is wild.
00:34:05
Speaker
So like literally your microbiome can affect the way your brain works. I think you're right. Like all of these things are just, that's what they are. They're tools, right? They're not the, they're not the thing that's going to make the change. Like you still have to make decisions that when you're triggered, how, how am I going to respond? And you need to prep for that.
00:34:28
Speaker
Maybe these tools help you realize why you're being triggered, but they're not going to be there in the moment making you take a deep breath, think through your response. Yeah. so there's that huge you component because like you can have I think this is like one of the best things that I ever saw a rephrase of. And it's like knowledge is not power.
00:34:50
Speaker
Action is power. So it's like you could know all the things you could know all the tools in your toolkit. But if you're not taking any action on them, then it's very useless. It's very pointless because there's like if nothing changes, nothing changes.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah. um So on the counter side of that, of like how beautifully impactful therapy can be, i really want to talk to you about like the are we becoming too soft, the overuse of therapy speak and like, like, have you seen anything in like social media and
Generational Work Ethics and Mental Health
00:35:25
Speaker
interactions? Like, what's your opinion on those things?
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, too soft, I don't really love that term. I don't necessarily know that, I know what you're saying. i don't know that that's what I think, but I do think people diagnose themselves And we'll use terms like PTSD without even realizing the implication of what they're saying.
00:35:52
Speaker
i don't I'm trying to figure out if people that use that stuff or sit in victimhood, if they're aware of what they're doing. I think it depends because sometimes there are people who also love to cling to a diagnosis. Like it just gives them this identification of like they they know something to be true about themselves. You know, it's like some people who cling to you recently.
00:36:19
Speaker
Oh, like where I got a diagnosis? Yeah. And you felt relief because it felt like, okay, this makes sense now. all these And I get that. like That makes sense. If you're getting that in therapy and someone is telling you like you have crazy trauma and x Y, and z you're like, oh my God, it makes sense. like every I'm sad. It makes sense why I'm sad. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say that like it I didn't feel, though, as if it like changed anything about me. It just felt kind of like a relief because like throughout my entire therapy journey, I had never really – besides like postpartum depression, I had never been told, like yeah, you probably have some PTSD or, yeah, you have some OCD tendencies. So it was just nice to be like, oh, okay. Well, I'm not like super crazy then.
00:37:05
Speaker
I actually have a diagnosis, but like for me, it, it, I don't know if this is a side tangent, but like the way that I and my brain deal with stress, like I am very thankful for my coping mechanisms because they align with my personality of like being overproductive and overhelpful and just like spreading myself too thin.
00:37:27
Speaker
but always having to be in motion and an in action. Like I would absolutely fail at my life if I was a person who was like frozen in anxiety, like if I couldn't do anything. And I, and I was there when I was in postpartum depression and I hated it. So it's like, in a way I feel like I got the better end of the shitty stick, if that makes sense, which is so bad. But, um, I feel that way too.
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Us type A's. Here we go It makes me do things. not Yes. Yeah. Immobilization. Yeah. i I'm basically just realizing this as we're talking. So sorry if it takes me a second to kind of get to the point. But on the idea of being too soft or...
00:38:12
Speaker
Like over identifying with our trauma. I remember there are conversations with my mom where I'll say like, oh, you you said this as a kid, for instance, like the food stuff. And I'll be like, oh, we used to say this, he used to diet all the time, blah, blah, blah.
00:38:26
Speaker
And my mom... is a very like in the moment presence. And I do think she, because she was a counselor and very pro therapy, like I do think she has dealt with her own demons.
00:38:40
Speaker
Um, but she's also just like very good at living in the moment. And so I'll say that and she'll be like, well, I guess i like really messed you up or something, you know, she's kind of joking, but at the same time, like acknowledging that her part in it or whatever, yeah,
00:38:56
Speaker
What I'm just realizing now is it's sort of her saying, why are you holding on to that? like Why is that something you're still identifying with that you have allowed it to fuck you up now in adulthood?
00:39:13
Speaker
Well, because I think when things happen to us when we're kids, like, yeah, we're just like little sponges. Like that shit just like sticks. And then we spend the rest of our lives trying to unstick it. Yeah.
00:39:26
Speaker
I think that has to do with brain development, not emotional choice, if that makes sense. That is brain development. But I do think once you get into adulthood, there are choices and there are things we let control us and make our identity. Do you know where it's it's sort of like we have...
00:39:44
Speaker
ah thankfully started to change the language of it's calling someone enslaved rather than a slave, right? It's the difference between giving someone identity as a slave and saying, no, you were an enslaved person. Like somebody else did that to you.
00:40:04
Speaker
And I think the same thing with our own trauma. If you're ah victim of sexual abuse, you're not, you don't have, like you are a victim, but like that doesn't have to be your identity as a victim. Like this other person was a abuser.
00:40:22
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. I like that. um Like changing the ownership of that of like the title, if that makes sense. um The thing where I have an issue with people using therapy speak is like, especially with the younger generation, because I teach them at the college is when people are like, yeah, I just like needed a mental day.
00:40:46
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, but like, what's going on? They're like, I don't know. I just didn't like feel like coming to class. And I'm like, okay. So if you're, and I teach the business classes at a visual media program. So these are people who want to work on like movie sets, photo shoot sets and alike. And I'm like, you realize that like, if you're on a production, you can't just like Need a menti day. Like that's not that's not a thing. So I think what's happening is like we ah the pendulum, I think, has swung little too far into the softness where people are using it or like abusing the mental health.
00:41:29
Speaker
spectrum to just get out of like normal fucking work. Like, I think that the generation below us, like they have a big issue with showing up on time, inconveniencing themselves by taking an earlier bus or getting somewhere so they can be on time. They're just like, it's not a big deal. And i'm like, no, actually it is a big deal. um The reason why I tell my students that is because like when you work on a movie set, you're often a part of a union And if you all start late and you all go late, like past your 10 hour contract, the set, the studio now has to pay everyone a full half day rate or another full day rate.
00:42:03
Speaker
Like if you go a minute past the clock. And so it's like, yeah, time literally is money. um And it's just interesting because like kind of like these hard and fast rules about like, you know, 10 minutes before time is on time and on time you're already late.
00:42:20
Speaker
Like those sorts of like the the soft skills that you need in the workplace. I feel like the younger generation is kind of just giving the middle finger to. And it's it's fascinating. Yeah.
00:42:34
Speaker
because I feel like part of it is they're just like so in touch with their feelings that they're not willing, like they don't want to be pushed into like normal work, like normal hard work. Like hard work is rewarding. And I feel like sometimes when people get into like this victimhood of like,
00:42:52
Speaker
ah corporate this and capitalization that and bla but but bla blah, blah, blah, blah. like, it's like, well, business, business is business. Like, you know, things are hard and like, you have to like work for them.
00:43:02
Speaker
And so I don't really know where like the, the, the fine line is between like telling someone to like buck the fuck up or yeah, you really do need to go take a personal day. Like, I don't know where that
Balancing Mental Health and Professional Expectations
00:43:13
Speaker
line is. I just know that I've seen it abused way too much.
00:43:17
Speaker
Well, let me ask this. So In your class, is it the same people taking it multiple times or does everyone just kind of take it once or twice?
00:43:30
Speaker
No, it's typically the same people. And I will say it's usually the people who are of a younger generation. so it's like our, because our program is at the college, like we have anyone from 19 to like 55.
00:43:43
Speaker
And i think the oldest we've ever had in the program was someone who was 65, which is incredible. And So basically, like I would say the older generations understand that the program is really hard. You have to show up. You have to do the work. And this is what's going to push you as a professional.
00:44:00
Speaker
And nine times out of ten, these older students have had careers in other fields and they're they're coming back because they want to do a career in the arts. And um The 19 year olds to the 22 year olds who were like fresh out of high school who also graduated during the pandemic, like they literally graduated high school without having to do classes for a full year because no one was doing coursework over Zoom. Yeah.
00:44:26
Speaker
So it's it's an interesting gap where like during part of their like major development, they went through the pandemic, all that came with it, which is true trauma. I'm not going to deny anyone that.
00:44:38
Speaker
But like the lack of step up that's happened now that they're in their adulthood is like what I find perplexing. Yeah. My I mean, you're not asking for Yeah.
00:44:53
Speaker
I would put it in like my first day syllabus, like you're allowed one mental health day this quarter. now if If you are a a repeat offender with this, like it's going to start, it's going to bring down your participation percentage of the grade or whatever.
00:45:11
Speaker
Well, what's hard is that so the way the program is structured is like it's five days a week, but each day is a single class. So I really only see my students, I think, 10 or 11 times. So you're allowed to have up to two absences.
00:45:26
Speaker
And if you have a third, that's an automatic fail because you you've missed like almost 20, 25 percent of your of your coursework. yeah So like as much as I want to give them that,
00:45:40
Speaker
like I would say, like at least for my class like my class, the way I structure it is like you really just need to show up for the lecture for like two and a half hours. And then I give you the rest of the time in class to do the work because I want them to be able to complete everything in class. They don't have this on top of all of their other... like shoots and video it editing and da da da da.
00:45:59
Speaker
So like for me, I'm like, my class should be the mental health day where you're like, you put in a couple of hours and then you get the rest of it to just like chill the fuck out. So I do say that like I outline the attendance policy and everything, but like,
00:46:15
Speaker
I don't know. i think that that would just mess with their ability to be a part of like, because we only have 10 classes, right? To like drill into them what they need to know in two years is a really short amount of time for the program that we have.
00:46:30
Speaker
So I just have a hard time with like, it's like, if you're not willing to just like be all in, like that's kind of what you got to do for a career is especially in your twenties, like you're got to be all in. Yeah. But I'm just thinking, you know, both at work and in this class, like they've been given a boundary, right? Based on the system that they're a part of.
00:46:57
Speaker
And that boundary is you can have two absences. And then after that you fail. So like some people, there's always going to be people.
00:47:08
Speaker
i totally get what you're saying with like ah younger generation, what they went through, what it is maybe producing right now. I think probably there are those students in every generation, but they're always going to be people that will take as much as they can take.
00:47:22
Speaker
Up to the boundary. And then there are going be people that fucking skip every single break lunch they have at their workplace and they create a culture of no one gets rest.
00:47:34
Speaker
Brandon has dealt with this in his last two jobs where like... Young, there's people that are younger than him, people that are older him, and they just like literally won't take a single break or a lunch break or anything, even though it's law, even though giving yourself a break is like really important to be able to like do your best work.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree. i think it's i think it's just my own personal frustration because like, I think I texted you this. I was like, as a type Enneagram one, as someone who feels very guilty about not being productive, like for me, it's just extremely hard to relate to that thought of like,
00:48:15
Speaker
Not just going until you break, which is not healthy. And that's what my therapist and I have been working on. But like part of me is just like, okay, but when it like really comes down to like the brass tacks, can you just slough it out for two hours and then go home and like deal with your shit?
00:48:32
Speaker
And of course, like, not everyone is the same. Like some of these students are also working full time jobs is like, you know, hostess and waiters and baristas to like pay for all their stuff.
00:48:44
Speaker
And so like, yes, people don't think of me as like this horrible human. I do have a large... space in my heart of empathy for these students because like right now the job market sucks everything is fucking expensive and these tariffs aren't helping anyone um but i think i'm mostly just speaking to the people who have like abused the system where it's like i had a student who like literally took four mental health days last quarter and i'm like it's not a thing no i mean and at that point you can fail them right yeah and i did yeah
00:49:17
Speaker
Yeah. so good But then you get the pushback from the student being like, Oh, but it was for my mental health. And I'm like, can I have a doctor's note? Like, like you have to like, we have to draw the line at some point because I can't just have someone like missing a third of their classes and then like still passing them with flying colors. Like that's just, mean i would I mean, it's easy for me to say like, I'm not in your situation, but I would just be like, even with the doctor's note, like the boundaries to glasses,
00:49:47
Speaker
I have to draw the line. That's the line. Yeah. And I think it also comes down to like understanding for these students that like I'm your teacher and I'm trying to prepare you for like the way the professional world is going to treat you.
00:49:59
Speaker
And they're going to give a lot less shits about you, especially if you're someone who's constantly not. showing up at full capacity. And that's where I think people need to go back and like, if you're constantly like, i think this applies to anyone in any situation, if you're constantly needing a mental health day, whether it's from the school that you're in, um the friend group that you're in, the workplace that you're in, I think that's a time to start questioning is at the right place for you.
00:50:25
Speaker
Because clearly the answer is probably not. So I think that like when it comes to the program that I teach in is like if you're finding that you constantly can't keep up or are too fatigued by the work,
00:50:38
Speaker
That's also a question of like whether you want to work as an independent contractor, which is the majority of creative industry jobs and running your own business. Or is there like a different route that's better suited for you? So I think when it comes to like thinking about our mental health and if we are constantly putting ourselves in a space that is counter to what we need mentally, like that's a good indication that something needs to shift for you.
00:51:05
Speaker
100%. I think that was well said. um So let's say people are interested in therapy, are interested in going back to therapy, if they're listening to us right now.
Finding the Right Therapy
00:51:19
Speaker
um do you have any tips on like finding a good therapist on how to create a good relationship with your therapist, what not to look for all that stuff?
00:51:31
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think the first thing is to just accept that it is a process to find the right person and that process is worth it. um But honestly, i think that Talkspace and BetterHelp are two very easy platforms to be engaged in. And I know that Talkspace has like the most...
00:51:51
Speaker
support with being also covered by insurance. So I think you just pay a copay or and some people don't pay anything at all. So like that's a way to go about it. And then they can also, I think they do a sliding scale based on income, which is really nice.
00:52:04
Speaker
So I think in terms of like finding something that is affordable um and easy to access, I think one of the online platforms, especially Talkspace is the best. No, we're not sponsored by them, but we should be. Sponsor us. Yeah.
00:52:18
Speaker
sponsor us. So I think that like when it comes to finding what you need in a counselor, those platforms are really great because you can like kind of tailor who they pair you with, like based off of ethnicity, religious stance, um the trauma that you want to work through, like the specific touch points. And so that gives you a great filter already. And then from there, just when you go into your first session, don't expect to walk out and be healed and be a totally different person. Like this is usually the debriefing, like think of it like a date you're on a date with your with your potential therapist like do you like them do they understand you do you feel like they can empathize with you if if you feel like there's something off if the personality like that's fine change counselors like that's the best thing about those platforms is they allow you to change um so you're not just stuck with the first person that you find
00:53:12
Speaker
When you find a therapist, know that oftentimes sessions might be a bit exhausting, especially in the beginning as you're rehashing the traumas or the issues you're wanting to deal with. It's just going to be emotionally exhausting.
00:53:27
Speaker
And um think getting through that portion is really important. Just the like getting everything out is important. The download is what I call it. There you go.
00:53:38
Speaker
Um, and then from there, i think it's about being really communicative about what you want and need from your therapist, just as a practical tip.
00:53:49
Speaker
Um, just like with your partners, even you can be like, Hey, I just need you to listen to this. I don't really need advice right now. or to your therapist, you can say like, I would like a really practical way to approach this problem.
00:54:05
Speaker
i want like different options. i want whatever, and then be willing to set that up and use them in your life. Uh, and that, that is going to be where the change happens. It's not obviously in the therapy room, actually, like your mind begins to shift in the therapy room.
00:54:22
Speaker
And when you leave and are confronted with these issues or with triggers or whatever, that's when the change and the growth happens. And I think that that definitely applied to when I started doing postpartum depression counseling. like I specifically told my therapist, like I want to feel good about motherhood and I want to have an amazing relationship with my daughter. And through all the therapy, through everything we've been working for, like I can proudly say I have an incredible relationship with my daughter.
00:54:55
Speaker
i Like other people could be triggered by her behavior, but literally it has never triggered me. And like, I see the way that some people in my life parent their own children and like the way that they parent, dude, like you can just see their childhood trauma written all over it and you just become a lot more aware. And I think that part of that is kind of like what is the Mandela effect? Is that what it's called when it's like you buy a car and then suddenly you see that car everywhere?
00:55:24
Speaker
thought the Mandela effect was where you remember something very specifically a certain way, maybe multiple people do, and then it's actually real reality in reality, it looks different. Do you know what saying? Like a logo.
00:55:37
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So not the Mandela effect, whatever the other effect is. But basically, it's like once you start identifying these like behavioral patterns that either you participated in or other people do, and then you start seeing them everywhere, you're like, holy shit, everyone needs to be in therapy.
00:55:53
Speaker
Like you just start seeing it. um Everyone actually does need to be in therapy. No, not everyone needs to be in therapy. But I think that like when I like walking into your therapist saying have a specific goal, like maybe it's like I want to leave this abusive relationship. I want to feel happy again. I want to stop resenting this person. Like like those are tangible things that you can ask for. And then what's really great is your counselor has basically an end point to build the roadmap for.
00:56:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:25
Speaker
And then I would say for people who aren't, aren't ready to maybe dive into therapy or like financially can't step up into it.
Hesitancy Towards Therapy and Wellness Practices
00:56:33
Speaker
I know for me, I think like the things that matter the most is like, get outside, let your brain be quiet, drink your water, feed your body. Good things move like movement is medicine.
00:56:47
Speaker
What else? Yeah, no, all that was really good. And, um, Working on self-awareness, I think is another just practical thing you can do and figuring out, you know, what your triggers are.
00:57:05
Speaker
And when you're leading up to a trigger, realizing when that is so that you can kind of step back and take a breath and yeah.
00:57:17
Speaker
And also we are not medical professionals. Oh, yeah, we were supposed to say that at the top, guys. um this is just opinion based. We are not, as Jamie said, certified, specialized, intelligent people in this department. We are just two moms with opinions and experience.
Closing Reflections and Upcoming Content
00:57:38
Speaker
you It's funny, whenever somebody calls me a mom. I'm like, am I? Dude, I feel the same way. I feel the exact same way. i don't even know why I just called us moms because like I was going to like, oh, that's us. We're just artists. And I was like, wait, but we're also moms.
00:57:56
Speaker
It's weird. It is weird. I am sometimes a mom. I guess I'm always a mom, but.
00:58:04
Speaker
Maybe you should talk to your therapist about it. i did talk to her about identity a lot already. My last one and. She gave me nothing helpful.
00:58:16
Speaker
Great. Sorry to end on that note, y'all. On that note, just know that therapy is a journey. It has ups, it has downs, it has all the in-betweens. And as we like to say, it's all a little bit in the gray. Yeah.
00:58:29
Speaker
And we're very excited for the next episode as well. It is our first episode with a guest, um Kate from Tapestry Events.
00:58:42
Speaker
co uh is coming on to talk a little bit about being a rule breaker in the wedding industry so very exciting um we're excited to talk to her and i'm so excited i asked her to bring the tea piping hot if she can hot Yeah, we're I want third degree burns. Let me just say, let me just say. All right, friends. Well, until that next episode drops, go ahead and follow us over at Instagram on, oh my God, at Instagram, on Instagram at rule.followers. We promise the graphics will be worth it.
00:59:23
Speaker
Also, leave us a review or give us five stars because you love us. And it helps us be seen because you know what? I think other people would want to listen to us too. Because we're cute.
00:59:36
Speaker
So cute. We have faces radio. All right, guys. We'll see you next time.