Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
October Finale with Cult Mother- How Can Witch Business Thrive in a Capitalist World?
243 Plays2 days ago
Episode 43
Welcome to The Bell Witch Podcast- "Witching in the 21st Century'
This is the very special October Finale of the Month of Moot Loots, in which Swailes has brought you weekly episodes with fabulous witchy guests to celebrate the Spooky Season.
In this episode Swailes the Friendly Green Witch, converses with guest Hannah Graves aka The Cult Mother, who is a pro Tarot reader and magical lass who refers to herself as a "gobby internet witch" Together they explore the challenges of running a witch business in a capitalist society, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and community support. Hannah shares her journey in the tarot reading community, discussing societal pressures and the commercialization of witchcraft. The episode underscores the value of meaningful connections and encourages listeners to embrace their unique paths.
Swailes invites audience engagement, fostering a sense of collaboration and support within the witch community and announces a bonus mini episode to celebrate upcoming Samhain.
Last years October Special with #LilyRivers https://open.spotify.com/episode/1jQBDTXp92cKV0kUUrYSe4?si=wJudcjePRtSONIEsUNmL1Q&t=2099
Special thanks to The Cult Mother Cult Mother Tarot
Produced with love and magic by Swailes the Friendly Green Witch friendlygreenwitch | Twitter, Instagram, Facebook | Linktree
Official podcast sponsor Whimsy Goth Market London- thewhimsygothmarket.uk
Discount Jasper cacao affiliate link - https://www.jaspercacao.com/shop/?affiliate=2714
Join the NEW Patreon for bonus content and exclusive episodes The Bell Witch Podcast | Podcast | Patreon
Follow #TBWP on Instagram The Bell Witch Podcast (@the_bell_witch_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos
Official Photos by Beverley Thornton Beverley Thornton (@beverleythornton) • Instagram photos and videos
Music by Geoff Harvey of Pixabay
X SHOW LOVE BY RATING YOUR FAV PODCASTS WHERE EVER YOU LISTEN TO YOUR SHOWS X
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Darkcast Network, bringing our indie podcasts out of the shadows.
00:00:44
Speaker
aop you boooky A lot. ah Welcome to the very special October finale episode of the Belle Witch podcast with me, Swales, the friendly Green Witch. As you can hear, my voice box is taking a bit of a beating and that's quite ironic because this very special episode guest, lovely Hannah Graves, the cult mother also had a soft throat so at least we match and it goes with the general dark theme of the Halloween slash Samhain feel so there you go. This episode is a fantastic, honest deep dive into which businesses, how to run them in a massive capitalist society and how it's quite damaging to us as human beings trying to make a meaningful connection and not get sucked in into
00:01:43
Speaker
the whole scene to be busy making masses of money working 52 hours a week nearly killing yourself while doing that system and Hannah's a brilliant guest for this and she's really honest I love how honest she is and how she passionately talks about which business and how we can make a difference and rebel against the capitalist system of basically feeling you're not good enough and how we can do it differently. I am super duper.
00:02:16
Speaker
excited for this one and the fact that Samhain is a few days away it is the season of the crone inviting darkness in and things coming to an end it's definitely a death card vibe with Samhain it's all about the underworld and making space for those we've lost and remembering them I'm giving thanks for the harvest of the year, finishing up the crops and turning over soil. It's all very time to wind down and retreat. I am feeling it really heavy this time. I've got major hermit vibes going on. I'm just retreating and I do this every year when the season changes and the clocks go back. I just retreat and I don't feel very sociable at all, but it does seem
00:03:07
Speaker
a lot more extreme this time. Choosing to not get involved with stuff. It's really big for me at the moment. and Anybody else feeling in this way do leave a comment on Spotify on this episode if you can below and let me know I'm not on my own and I'm not just being a moody witch.
00:03:26
Speaker
and you can always help the show grow by leaving some stars reviews ratings tell people buy me a coffee.com or join the patreon for as little as £1.50 per month coming back to those reviews those stars really do help the podcast to shine and it means so much to me just to know that you're there and that you're enjoying what i'm providing the content I'm creating is right for you. It's just a really nice thing to look at my ratings and be like, oh, I've got some more. I really do treasure that moment. And as a thank you, stay tuned for another little bonus episode coming just before I win because, you know, I love it.
00:04:19
Speaker
Right, that's enough from me before my throat packs up. I hope you enjoy the interview. Have a very happy Halloween and a blessed Samhain normal service will resume in November.
00:04:40
Speaker
The Cult Mother is on the Vale Witch podcast. I am bloody buzzing. Hello, Swales. So much going wrong, but we made it. Story of my life. So how are you doing? You all right? You're a bit unwell. Yeah, so you do have to excuse me if I sound a little more sultry and seductive than usual.
00:05:03
Speaker
I've had a cold that was also a chesty cough. The fun times just keep coming in 2024 for me. But yeah, starting to feel better now and delighted to be here. Had a few duvet days, I think, didn't you?
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, face down. If you'd rolled me outside, children might have come by, poked me with a stick, checked for signs of life, there would have been none. Well, you're here now. I've got you now, so... You do, you do. Amazing, really, because the one of the reasons this podcast is here is because of you, Hannah. Oh, it's all useful. And you're cool. you Because we had Aunt Ibex on a few episodes ago. We talked about the artist way.
00:05:41
Speaker
that lead me to do this podcast which we did together on The Cult. Yeah, um that's got to be at least a year ago now, though, that run through the artist's way. Was it or is it even longer than that? Longer, I've been going nearly, well, about 18 months now. Wow, amazing. Congratulations. That's absolutely massive. Yeah, I can't remember the first time I encountered the artist's way. I think obviously it's a lot of people talk about it in 12 step recovery and obviously it's based on kind of that 12 step recovery process. And I remember the first kind of time I went through it.
00:06:15
Speaker
and how revealing it was and how it gave me an opportunity to kind of feel like I was moving more in step or more in alignment with what it was I kind of really wanted to be doing. But I know I'm absolutely delighted if going through it in the in the cult and with that kind of group of people led to this big creative moment for you as well. Love to see it.
00:06:37
Speaker
Because she used to do one, didn't you? Single Fat and 40, which was so much fun. Oh yeah, podcasting. Yeah. Yeah. That was all Sarah though. I all credit to to Sarah ah from Single Fat 40 because she conceptualized that and used to host it with another friend. And it's only when that other friend wasn't available that I kind of stepped in to do some episodes. But even listening back on those now, like I'm really proud of the work that we did together and they've And they've aged quite well those episodes talking about things that were important to us as we were going through the Pani D. the pal Some of that content feels quite retro now and it's only a few years ago, which I think is testament to the pace that everything kind of moves up these days. You know, we're always on to the next moment.
00:07:18
Speaker
culturally. It was so good. I loved it. I really abruptly stopped and I was like, no, no. Sarah in box going like, do another one, do one. She was like, no, why don't you do it? And I thought to herself, actually, why don't I do it? Whereas it before artist's way, I'd have gone, no way. I can't do that. I love that. And I love that energy as well of like, oh I'd love to have this or I'd love to see somebody doing this or I'd love to have that kind of space and then people having that moment of realization or all that kind of awakening and being like oh I can do it I can make it I can create it I can curate it or make people come together in that way it's always really exciting to see.
00:07:55
Speaker
So do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Who the fuck am I? Sorry you might have children and be listening in the car might as well as might have to edit that one out. Yeah it's me your cult mother which is kind of an alternate or a alias I guess you know that's how cult mother first came around really I'm just Hannah Joy Graves. But when I first started kind of reading Taro, I wanted something a little snazzy, a little snappy to to work with, I think. And that's how kind of Cult Mother first came around. And then obviously, as the cult community has developed, that idea of actually kind of having a cult, a membership or following. Yeah, it's it's fascinating to me the fact that I'm still sat here now after half a decade doing the damn thing, which is essentially just being like a gobby witch on the internet. I think i think that's me.
00:08:49
Speaker
And people are like, what do you do? I'm like, I'm just a gobby internet witch. Gobby witch, but I do do some damn good tarot card reading, you know? So, oh, she does. That's what it comes down to and comes back to all the time is, you know, even though things have kind of grown and spiralled and spun off and a limb in a lot of different directions to me, I'm still just a still just a card witch at heart. And my best times are still spent in kind of one-to-one work with people. It's the thing I still enjoy the most.
00:09:15
Speaker
And you're kind of semi famous now because you've got like 70,000 followers, which just blows my mind. Yeah. Yeah. If you know what, though, as far as steep learning curves go, I think one of the things that I, you know, I'd love to share with people is that it doesn't mean anything. You know, I've, I've said that and worked worked with that awareness from day one, but you know, if I had 70,000 people follow me on Instagram, but nobody ever booked me for Atari reading, it wouldn't mean anything. So I think it's really easy for people to.
00:09:43
Speaker
want to start their own project or do different kinds of work. I mean, you know, with all the challenges it takes setting up a podcast and getting eyes on what it is that you're doing, it's very easy to look at people and be like, oh, they've got hundreds of thousands of followers. It doesn't necessarily translate to success.
00:10:02
Speaker
fulfillment, you know, I think in a lot of ways I'd love to go back to the time when I had about 6,000 Instagram followers and I knew who most people were that were in and around my comments section or, you know, because now it just seems very overwhelming.
00:10:16
Speaker
And it's the my comments and my DMs and everything of the wild, wild West. And it actually makes the experience of being online and running a business online quite stressful, truth be told. So there's a lot to be said for small niche followings and people doing what they're doing and getting the right kind of attention and remembering that just because someone has got a lot of followers or can make a lot of noise online, it doesn't necessarily make them great at what they do.
00:10:40
Speaker
yeah i know i'm terrible for it comparing and despairing i'm not as bad as i used to be but i would like 10 10 000 followers would be lovely actually yeah 10k is a nice number that's all right yeah well i'm moving more towards the 100k mark now and it is absolutely fucking terrifying Madness. But that's capitalism, isn't it? It teaches you like numbers. It's all about the numbers. It's all about the fame and the being popular, which kind of ties into the chosen topic of today, which is like capitalism. Capitalism.
00:11:12
Speaker
with witchy businesses and all that jazz yeah well this is the thing i was trying to think about something that i could speak on that would be hopefully helpful for people and i think you know it all it all ties into what we were just talking about the whole kind of compare and despair the things that stop people from even getting started in the first place and the fact that I've now got a lot of personal experience I suppose in what it's like to keep kind of having to meet those challenges internally, externally and keep kind of persevering and progressing
00:11:44
Speaker
Because I want to see, I want to see witches succeed. I want to see weirdos making money. I want to people see people kind of being creative and using their skills and figuring out ways that they can make it work for them where they feel slightly less kind of restricted, stuck, trapped.
00:12:03
Speaker
by this monstrosity of and of a system that we kind of all have to live and exist in. So yeah, love, money, hate, capitalism. Success isn't pie. It doesn't need sharing out. There's plenty for everybody if we just shouted each other out, which is what I'm all about on this podcast.
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. body Room at the table for everyone, right? like and As long as you're not a dick. As long as you're... Well, there you go, you said it, right? like im if That's the thing, i might i might I like to be very open open and very welcoming and I absolutely love an opportunity to platform other people and their voices and their projects.
00:12:42
Speaker
But ultimately for me also, i'm I'm cult mother. I said what I said. So if if it's not a fit, if it's not a value fit, if the alignment isn't where it needs to be, I'm not afraid to tell you to fuck off either, so. yeah
00:12:55
Speaker
Like if you're everybody's cup of tea, you'd be a mug. I love that as well. I think that needs tattoo with yeah like that needs to on a t-shirt at least. I think some bell witch podcast merchandise. If you were everyone's cup of tea, you'd be a mug. So like the capitalism system, I watched a witchcraft and feminism workshop a couple of nights ago and it went interesting because it was about feminism before burning times, you know, like medieval feminism, which I've never really considered before.
00:13:25
Speaker
You think it's so of today, don't you, in the 20th century? Yeah, I think for me, there's been a lot of different waves of feminism, a lot of a lot. It's taken a lot to get us to where we are now, I guess. um And I think for me within that, it comes down to again to that idea of where did we find connection? Where did we find community? Where were we able to exist?
00:13:47
Speaker
survive, practice, share the information, the wisdom, the knowledge, the skills that we needed. So essentially for these groups, for these kind of communities to stay connected, to kind of learn and from each other, to teach each other and to do what was necessary to survive. And I think it's a shame that we're kind of very much in that in that place and and still fighting that fight, even since those kind of beginning or before times. It's kind of really crazy to to see how not that much has changed. Weird it's changed, but it's still the same. It's really odd. Same struggle, same fight. It's different contexts. Everything's online now. It's all online.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah, we have we have things like thermos and electric toothbrushes and all of those other nice things that keep us complicit and quiet and complacent. So yeah, ready to just about pop off.
00:14:43
Speaker
So which business then? You've got ah an awesome story about how your witch biz became a couple of other, because she wasn't born into it. why You did other stuff, didn't you? You used to work at a piercing place tattooing and other things in Germany. Yeah, wild. So I am absolutely, if you look at my CV, it's incredibly varied. Like I've worked in a skateboard shop, made soap.
00:15:11
Speaker
ah so Yeah, I've worked worked for Lush for a little while back there. So if you run pubs and then you ended up moving to Berlin in Germany way back in 2012 to run a tattoo studio at an art gallery over there. It was only really when the pandemic hit and we went into those first lockdowns. My own kind of personal tarot practice had brought me to a point where I was kind completely in love and completely enamored with card work. I just, I really, really felt like I could be of service, that I could be useful or helpful in some capacity by offering card readings, giving people an opportunity just to kind of jump in a Zoom room. I always say, you know, a good tarot reading gives you an opportunity to kind of stir everything up and see it from different perspectives. Um, so I felt like it was kind of like the ideal time.
00:16:04
Speaker
for a little bit of a trustful, like a little bit of a leap of faith. And I always say, you know, I think a lot of people are like, oh, it's really courageous. It's really brave to quit a job, full-time employment, where you have a guaranteed salary to move into the realm of being self-employed, especially doing something that is so niche and so misunderstood by so many people. It might not have been very brave or courageous when I was kind of sobbing.
00:16:30
Speaker
like in the bathroom mirror in the morning like really is this is this what we're doing is this is this the way that things are going to look or the shape of things to come and i was like yeah i think i'd rather embrace the risk than still be sat in the same place in the next six months you know which is very much my personality anyway i think it would it's really interesting if you scroll all the way back to like the first ever video that I made on Instagram, you know, like compared to what people are maybe used to now because it's second nature to me, I could do it in my sleep. But you've got a very tentative, nervous person who was like, hi, so I'm doing these tarot card readings. Maybe you kind of might want to be interested in booking one. And it's just, I think it's just such a lovely reminder for me and maybe for everyone else that you just have to start somewhere.
00:17:23
Speaker
just have to make that jump and then you just have to be prepared to do the damn thing and to keep doing it and doing it consistently and then yeah over time obviously booking a few card readings here and there has led to me being able to build what is essentially a brand platform or a community. And I've been able to kind of live and make a good living full-time just off of reading and teaching Taro for like ah like I said, at least the last half a decade now. So it's been absolutely wild, but it is always a case of that first hurdle where you can come up with a hundred reasons as to why it isn't a good idea and you have to jump anyway. And I think that's always the bit that I personally love
00:18:09
Speaker
kind of helping people to approach or to tackle or to prepare for. Because there's nothing worse than people being stuck in that space where they would really love to do something full time, but they want to try and build it to the point that they know it's going to sustain them before they quit or give up the other things that are such a drain on their time, their energy and their effort. From personal experience and from coaching people and working with people,
00:18:36
Speaker
It's just ah such a catch-22 because you're never going to get it to the point that you need it to be until you're prepared to release and let go of the other. um And that's a very, very tricky place to be in. Under capitalism, which of course demands that we're concerned with security, safety, stability, ah you know, it's a system that that naturally encourages us to be very risk.
00:18:58
Speaker
averse, which you know we I think we have to acknowledge that's a very real barrier or block to have to kind of get a hold of and unpack if you want to start running a witch biz, making your own money honey, you know getting getting tapped out of that system so you can tackle it, work within it, adjacent to it in a way that maybe works a little better for you.
00:19:17
Speaker
There's a massive fear of failure. It's also something about age. I think you get to a certain age, I think later is ish. And then you start going, you know what, fuck it. You know, if I fail, I'll just do something else. But I haven't personally, I haven't felt that until recently. Like it would be at the end of the world if I failed. So therefore I'm not going to do anything different. Yeah, 100 percent. And then and and it comes back to that kind of mindset I was saying about before where when you think about it, would we we would we rather not know where we are?
00:19:46
Speaker
in the next six months will still be in the same place. And because our minds, talking taro, our swords, right, that very cognitive part of who we are, wants to prioritize safety, it can get really tangled up in that fear and that becomes our reality. The narrative, the story that we have about how it's gonna go, how it's gonna work out just becomes fact for us. And the truth really is that we're not gonna know until we try.
00:20:13
Speaker
Right? We're not gonna know that it we failed and it was a terrible, horrible idea until we actually do the thing. But the fear, as he said, is is is the thing that usually stands in the way and stops us from even approaching that first hurdle.
00:20:27
Speaker
Somebody said recently to me in America, well, it might've been a cult catch up actually. It's normal to have a few failed businesses before you'd even taken seriously. And you kind of questioned if you don't have that, whereas in Britain, it's the other way around. A hundred percent. And I kind of went, I wish it were like that here. Yeah. A hundred percent. I kind of, I think, you know, and again, it's that idea of what lived experience have you got? You know, when we talk about transferable skills,
00:20:54
Speaker
in the workplace, you know, especially people talk about all I can use Excel, you know, I know how to use spreadsheets. Yeah, but maybe you also have amazing communication skills from dealing with shitty customers all day long that are going to transfer really well to doing client work or working with people, you know, I think that We're not encouraged to embrace failure as an incredible learning curve. And worse than that, we're then working with all of that judgment that comes with it. You know, what is, it what are other people going to think? Oh, well, I tried something and it failed. So people are going to, people are going to judge me terribly and I'm human. I deal with it. I tried doing a podcast this year.
00:21:35
Speaker
Yeah, it was bad so You know, I made all the it's very easy to to go online but like I'm doing this and fate I'm facing the fear and I'm just gonna Focus all the time energy and effort into this and then you know The reality of it was it wasn't very good and I wasn't happy releasing it and it's really powerful I think when we get to a point where we're like, okay, I tried that I learned that something from it but I don't necessarily keep have to ah I don't have to keep banging my head against the same wall to try to prove a point to other people you know if that's the reason we're like oh you know because I think knowing when to quit
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah. It's also an integral part of building a business or building success as well as like, you know, maybe I created this offering. It landed like a lead balloon. Nobody likes it. Nobody booked it. Well, then we're going to have to do it differently. But it's devastating to see so many gets it. But so many people get to that point and go, well, I'm just going to not I'm just not going to do it. I feel like I've got all the information that I need now ah to justify all of this fear. And I just won't I just won't bother. Like you said, I think that's a really healthy approach with business to be like, oh yeah, I've had a bunch of failures. I've had a bunch of failed businesses, ah which has equipped me with the learning about what doesn't work, which is really, really powerful, useful information to have.
00:22:54
Speaker
And I used to hate that I went to uni, got a degree because I got told that's what you do in life. yeah yeah And then you get told you've got to work like nine, five and get rich really quick and be successful and being seen to be successful. That is huge. yeah And only probably since two years ago, I've gone like, I don't need any of that. It's a superpower that I don't work nine till five that I can stay at home and bring up my kids and value my magic and get paid. yeah you know Granted, randomly for magic, but it's valuable and people pay me for it.
00:23:28
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, and this is this is the thing that I really wish people realized and um understood as well, you know, that that the ways that we measure success are going to have to shift and are going to have to change. And I think, you know, my business this year is perhaps a really good example of that.
00:23:46
Speaker
Because externally, everyone's like, oh my God, 70,000 Instagram followers and you're doing this and this person and you're over here doing that and what country are you are now. And I've had one of the worst years of my life.
00:24:00
Speaker
You know, personally, in terms of trying to manage my mental health and trying to stay healthy and trying to hold down a relationship, a household, you know, there's no kids here, thank God, but, you know, my pets, my animals and my family. And I think people being open and honest about that as well, rather than creating this shiny facade that people see on the outside and see on the internet, there isn't actually a reflection.
00:24:26
Speaker
of where you are in your life and the fact that you know just because you can be fully booked up and into 2028 if you want to be is that success? Is that you know like ah these these measures that we have within business under capitalism for how successful someone is I think we're also synonymous with how sick everybody is at the moment as well and how much people are struggling because we're holding ourselves to these impossible standards whereas like you said oh I've got an hour today where I can go for a walk in the woods Or I've got a bit of time to curl up on the end of the couch and read a book. I've got a whole last day to do that. you know um It's definitely, I want to see people getting celebrated for that, for us um understanding ourselves that that that's where the value needs to be. That's where the measure of value needs to be for us is how happy, healthy, content we can be in the day that we're in based on the on the work that we're doing. And I definitely have not had that balance.
00:25:21
Speaker
where it needs to be over the last few years ah but there we go. Oh bless you, it works so hard. Yeah it's tough because that's the thing you know when we talk about which businesses and kind of breaking away from you know that that 40 hour work week you do have to work really hard that's the tough thing.
00:25:39
Speaker
I think we do people a disservice by clinging too much to the message that if you just manifest it hard enough, you know, you'll get because you eat to build a business and to build a business that can sustain you financially, doing this kind of work, you do have to roll your sleeves up, kind of get stuck in and take care of business, you know? And I think that more kind of holistic life balance aspect can only come a little bit later in the journey. You do have to be prepared to put the graft in to get it where it needs to be before you can kind of start asking yourself those questions and having those conversations because as much as we'd love to just burn it all down and become bog witches, right?
00:26:24
Speaker
yeah We also are aware of the fact that there just seems to be an endless amount of bills that need paying. um And i I don't think anybody should should switch financial security for financial insecurity, especially if that's then going to create more pressure and tension and ah lack of well being, you know, people have to really figure out what works for them and what's right for them. But it's the not being prepared to run the risk bit that is really tricky in the midst of all of that, I guess.
00:26:52
Speaker
celebrate that you don't have to do five days a week if you don't need to. Oh my I can't believe how long it took me Swells. It literally like the amount of time and like I said like you do have to put those hours in to get it off the ground but I was there, like I was like, okay, I'm self-employed now, so I guess it just isn't gonna require more structure, more discipline, more hustle, more grind ah than when I was working for the man. And I'm sitting there, hours and hours, like you said, five days a week, six days a week, 40 hours, that's a that's a that's a quiet week. I think it's testament to how deep that programming is for us growing up under capitalism.
00:27:36
Speaker
patriarchal capitalism, you know, like, because for me, all of the like self punishing behaviors and self destructive behaviors that go with grinding and hustling so hard have also been really like bought into the light, working for myself as well. It's mad the amount of time that I was just like, why have I sat here? Why am I eating my dinner are at my desk at 10 o'clock at night?
00:28:01
Speaker
Right? Like that's that's not what I quit my job to do. But even now, you know, like i' I've gotten to a point where I do a couple of appointments a day, I'm focusing on quality over quantity. And that pervasive little nasty voice that that you get of Whoa, what do you mean you're only doing two readings today? That's only two hours. You should be doing eight hours of work every day. You should be doing eight reading. And it's there, it's pretty constant. But I think understanding that it's always going to be there and you're going to have to try and navigate where you are with that. And in conversation with that is is really important. um It's so deep in the grain, isn't it? So deep, so deep.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah, similar territory to kind of body positivity. You know, it's like you can move with really strong awareness. You can have a really improved relationship or understanding with kind of who you are or the way you are the way you are, but it still doesn't mean you're just going to be able to shut it off or make it go away. I think that's really, that's been a huge learning curve for me this year and a huge learning curve within this business is even though I can be like, it's like, you know, like you said, back compare and despair.
00:29:13
Speaker
We know we're doing it, we know why we're doing it, and we know it's not good for us, but does that mean that we can just stop doing it? No, right. So again, it's that kind of like, okay, I know that nasty little voice that tells me I've got to chain myself to my laptop for eight plus hours today in order for something to be worthy in order for me to be worthy in order for something to be successful. I think just, just knowing it's going to be there and you have to learn how to kind of negotiate with it and find a little bit of flexibility and a little bit of freedom around it. It's been super interesting for me. Like I said, especially this year.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I think it helps if you've got a an alternative business because it's the mainstream belief and most the Western world believe the same thing. And then you've got those little individual independent bit weirdos and witches and that helps us on that journey of going against the grain. Definitely. I think there's definitely, that you know, you get to a point where you have to practice what you preach, right? And I do a lot of work with a lot of people who high flying industry types who are getting kind of frazzled and burned out and they're being like look you need pause you need time to integrate we need time for imagination and intuition and meanwhile I'm flying through back-to-back meetings double coffee you know so I think that idea of you know integrity it's integrity and being able to not just
00:30:41
Speaker
not just kind of talk the talk, but walk the walk is is what it comes back to as well and the kind of business you wanna build and the kind of life that you wanna live. But it's definitely difficult because I also think because your business is alternative, because it is maybe difficult for other people to quantify or qualify in terms of success, there is that temptation to to push it more, to drive it faster, harder. um ah It's a really tough thing for me, Leo Stelliam,
00:31:11
Speaker
with all of their ego and the pride that comes with that, to do a lot of work, but know that in certain realms and spheres, especially those ones that are kind of key or core under capitalism, no one's ever gonna respect or appreciate what it is that you do. And you kind of have to just get okay with that. There's certain seven dinner parties I could attend, and I probably won't, when people go, and what do you do? And I go, I'm a, I'm a tarot card reader, I'm a tarot card reader living.
00:31:37
Speaker
you know it's like it's that classic it's like you're getting a cab even um and i'd love to be someone's like oh it really doesn't matter what other people think of you of course it doesn't but sometimes it does you know it's like if i if i i can't tell you about the conversations i've had with mortgage brokers You know, like on paper I'm making more money now than I've ever made in my life, but on paper, the kind of paper that they want, the kind of proof that they want, you're self-employed and you're what? Sorry? A witch? No. Exactly. Exactly. It says, I'm a professional witch. I run an online community. I read tarot cards. I teach tarot classes. It's incredibly rare. I don't think I've ever yet, I'm yet to experience someone going, Oh, really amazing.
00:32:17
Speaker
Oh, that sounds really interesting. That sounds really engaging. You get a very, ah that you get the raised eyebrows and they're very quick to then wanna change topic or direction in terms of conversation. So yeah, it's definitely a bit of a chip on the shoulder I have, I guess, and the fact that I find it hard to feel like I'm taken seriously inverted commas. But what does that mean? And why do I care if it's taken seriously, like I said, by these structures,
00:32:46
Speaker
and systems that I'm also not keen to want to participate in on a daily basis anyway. The men folk get scared. Yeah. Like, she's a what? She's a what?
00:32:58
Speaker
Oh, and then you get, oh, are you going to put a curse on me? Oh, are you going to turn me into a frog? You'd be fucking lucky. Yeah. Like I was always turn it to me. What are you going to do to me? Let's not talk about you. Let's talk about me. I mean, I could try it. Look, unless you sign off on this mortgage, Jack, I am in fact going to turn you into an amphibian. But again, it hasn't, it hasn't worked for me yet. So.
00:33:22
Speaker
But even though I'm on LinkedIn, you know, and it took me ages to say a professional witch. and yeah And I sat with it for a while thinking like, wow why am I scared to put in? Well, because nobody will take it seriously. Not on not on the LinkedIn anyway, because I mean, how boring is LinkedIn? Yeah. And even worse.
00:33:40
Speaker
It's like you worry that they won't they they won't take you seriously. You can take you seriously, but for when you're faced with that amount of raised eyebrows, you start to be like, wait, did I go mad? ah Did I? Have I completely lost the plot? And again, that's where the need for the confidence and being self-assured and having like a real true belief in what you do and what you can offer will stand you an amazing step. But yeah, LinkedIn, who it's actually the largest social network No. After Facebook and Instagram, I think it's number three now. And so, yeah, it can be a really interesting place to be, but it does make my blood run cold as well. So dull. It's so dull. Do we need a LinkedIn for witches? Do we need, like, witching? Oh my god. Witching? Witching in the 21st century?
00:34:31
Speaker
Which in which is a networking platform for for us so we can build our own world Share our own insights doing which biz doing biz differently. I can't believe it's not a thing. Is it a thing? Probably is somebody's probably done it by now, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it if you want to that's another thing that I would absolutely ah love to share or point out for anyone who's building a business wants to build a business wants to kind of push their side hustle, doesn't matter if someone else is doing it, they're not gonna do it the way that you do, right? You are the secret sauce, you are the magic, you are the final piece for the altar, you know? And I just think, can you imagine if I'd started doing readings for people but had then gone to Instagram or online and had looked at people like Jessica Doar
00:35:19
Speaker
Michelle T, Letitia Carterman, seeing people who are, I was like, wow, I love what they do. i'd love I'd love to be able to do what they're doing, but because they're doing that, I won't bother. you know And it comes back to that whole, there's a seat at the table for everyone, just because there's a bunch of people happily seated doing what it is that they do. It doesn't mean that there isn't room for you. And also in my experience, those people, if they are as good as you think they are, will be the first person to pull a seat up.
00:35:47
Speaker
for you and be helpful and supportive of where you're at on your journey as well. um So I think, yeah, with the, for anyone, there's no point in me. Imagine if people like the Rolling Stones, like, oh, there's no point in me playing rock and roll. Look at all those bands out there already playing rock music. You guys just won't even make jaggers like I'm just going to go, it's going to work in this shop, you know?
00:36:09
Speaker
I mean, that was one of the things, I think, that worries me even now, people already doing stuff. Am I gonna upset them? You know, that I've come along with a podcast doing something similar to other podcasts. See, this is the thing, if people are pissed off, they're pissed off and there's nothing you can do about it. But for me, it should always be fuel for your fire, right? So it's like now, if somebody else started a witchy podcast, instead of letting it bother, you'd be like, okay, toot, toot, beep, beep.
00:36:37
Speaker
There's another player on the field. I'm going to pick up, I'm going to pull up my socks and run a little bit faster, you know? So that's the way I, you know, numerous times. There's loads of incredibly creative, very cool card slingers. There's so many new popping up. I think I've, with you know, if people were sending me reels the other day of a blind dog reading tarot cards on Instagram, right? I can't compete with that. kind it Was it ah Harold or something like that? The blind dog.
00:37:06
Speaker
I can't compete with that kind of content and I don't have to. I don't need to, right? But every now and again, when somebody moves into the space or starts, you know, doing what I'm doing, it just puts a little shine on what I'm doing. It just makes me makes me aware of my need to do it with as much me as I can be.
00:37:23
Speaker
to make sure it's not getting lost. It's not getting too watered down. I'm not just kind of going through the motions. And I've always said the minute that that starts to happen, I'll just quit. I'll just disappear. None of you will know where I've gone. See, I grew up in the hardcore scene, right? Where you'd have all these like little tiny niche bands. And at just the point they started getting any attention or somebody wanted to come sign them to a major label, they'd just split up. And I always thought that was the coolest thing in the entire world. um So I do fantasize about the day where I just delete the Instagram and go,
00:37:53
Speaker
absolutely quiet and no one will know. They'll be like, do you remember that? Did you remember that fucking mad emo woman that used to pour cards on Instagram? Do you remember that? Do you remember us all hanging out in Zoom rooms and trying to apply eyeliner? I do get it. No, I do really like that. Because there's something about being an alternative, different like anti-establishment business, anti-capitalism and all that. yeah It's like success, what is success? And then you get so big, and then by default, do you become mainstream? Because she got ah you're that big. And then what do you do? Do you go up that fucking shit creek of a massive, or do you go foot this amount and throw your coat in? Yeah, exactly right. Is it better to burn out or to fade away?
00:38:40
Speaker
ah Yeah, and it is. that That's tricky. you know It's like my cult mother was definitely created as the antithesis to a lot of what I would call kind of those big spiritual spaces, right? Which, because I didn't necessarily feel included or a part of. And so I wanted i wanted somewhere where I could just be me and other people who felt that they aligned with that to feel included, to feel welcome. But within that is also, like you said, you you basically always run the risk of becoming a victim of your own success.
00:39:14
Speaker
You know, because yeah it's like the cult, I don't want to get the cult to become so big that I don't know who those people are. That's wild to me that you'd have someone that's like, I'm going to give you a monthly amount of money because I want to engage with your work and I want to sit in spaces with you. And I don't have no idea who you are or where you're from because there's just so many of you. Like that just doesn't, it doesn't appeal to me because it's not what I set out to build.
00:39:38
Speaker
It's not what I wanted to build, you know? So it is an interesting conundrum to be turned on right now. A hundred percent. And it's like all the people in my DMs. I'm going to say it. I hope everyone listens to this. Right. I've got that that. When people that you're not following send you a DM on Instagram, it goes into this like others folder and you have to go there to see these messages. And there are hundreds and hundreds um I barely answer emails at the moment, right? I've i've got the bandwidth of a bullfrog. I'm showing up, I'm reading tarot, I'm keeping connected with my clients, but in terms of all the noise, I'm having to be fairly brutal in terms of boundaries. So there's this entire folder of people who've sent me messages. And for someone like me, I guess if you call me you're highly sensitive, call me an empath, when people are like, oh, hey, I just wanted to say essay, absolute inbox essay, right?
00:40:37
Speaker
I would love to be able to read every single message, understand who that person is, understand what they wanted to express and be able to reply to them. But I would spend all day, every day, probably cold and a ball crying in a corner, just trying to read and answer DMs. And I can't do that. I can't do that. And so, yeah, it's tough, I think, to be want to create a space where people feel safe and included. They want to come to you. They want to communicate with you and having to kind of shut a door.
00:41:07
Speaker
but feel like we even though that door is closed, everyone is still behind it, kind of clamouring to get in or to have that interaction. It kind of breaks my heart, I'll be honest. I find it really hard because i'm i it's it's that awareness of, oh shit, all these people have taken the time to send me these messages. And again, ah what other people think. And now I haven't replied to them anything. And I think I'm a massive bitch.
00:41:32
Speaker
I kind of wish there was a mass delete button. Is there not a button where you can just... No, no, there isn't. Sadly, there really should be. And I think maybe I need to look at, you know, some of the meta business suite functionality. But that then again, I never wanted to be someone who was such a big deal.
00:41:51
Speaker
that they don't have time and need a mass delete button for people that are trying to send the messages. You know, it's wild. It's really wild. But yeah, I i just ah I think, you know, it's another been a great learning curve for me this year, understanding that even though it's uncomfortable for me, that is just a boundary that I have to put in place and I have to keep.
00:42:13
Speaker
because otherwise I just can't keep doing what I need to do in those other areas, spaces and places. Yeah, that's been kind of wild. You are one witch in a business. It's not like you've got a team or anything. No, it's what I mean, I've got lovely Bex. You've had Auntie Bex as a guest and Bex is great and helps to remind me of things. and But in terms of kind of keeping things moving and keeping an eye in the different areas of the business that I kind of have and have to work in now. Yeah, day to day in the spare room of my little house in Belfast, it's just me. It is mad. The one thing a lot of people need to be aware of in terms of creating any kind of a business is the audacity is at an all time high.
00:42:58
Speaker
Like, people are like, we're not OK. It's been a very terrible, challenging year for so many people in so many different ways. And I tried to move with awareness of that. But the level of entitlement from some people who, when you don't reply to their inbox essay, even though you've never spoken to them before, they've never booked you, you've never worked in any capacity, will then keep messaging you and get gradually more irritated and annoyed by the fact they can't get your attention until they start being nasty.
00:43:26
Speaker
Please don't be nasty to me or anyone else who's just trying to make a living doing what they're doing, you know? Like, don't you know who I am? Yeah, it's very, it's very demanding, you know, people who are like, well, you're booked, you're fully booked, but I want an appointment. So I'm like, well, yeah, then you'll have to wait until I have some available. Wow. Yeah. but I've booked to you before and I want to book with you now. It's like, OK, I appreciate the problem, ah but it is what it is. Sucks to be you, I guess. Don't you find as well for our age range? I reckon we're the last generation that can do internet and life separately.
00:44:05
Speaker
Everybody else after us is like internet and life is definitely, the internet is life. And I'm like, no, it's not, it's not. There's internet and then there's life. That is such a massive observation, right? Because I think one of the things I've struggled with, obviously building a brand, building a persona, creating content, is that it's very easy to then fall into the gap between where you are and who you are online, and when you're just in Sainsbury's trying to get through the self checkout, you know? im like
00:44:42
Speaker
It's absolutely mad. And I think, yeah, you're completely right. This idea of kind of front stage, backstage and where it all begins to blur together, does where it get really tricky for people? And the other thing, oh, my God, we could have done an entire episode on this. Parasocial relationships, parasocial relationships are a relative. I mean, it's not really a relatively new phenomenon. If you look at the culture of celebrity, I guess, but with the way that people like me can build like followings online and on Instagram now.
00:45:12
Speaker
where we want to interact with you, people want, you want engagement because you want what you're doing to be successful. Like I'm running a business, but people believe through their ability to kind of watch and observe you, especially if you are showing up in authenticity and in vulnerability, they think that they're your best friend. They think you're their mate and they want to message you and engage with you. And, you know, it's a very difficult thing, I think for me,
00:45:39
Speaker
you know, logging into a Zoom room, talking about to someone about all of their hopes, dreams, fears, and then having to close that room and close that connection and keep that, like, again, to keep the boundary where it needs to be. That's one thing. What's wild to me is the people who've never even had a reading with me, that have never had that level of interaction, who ah we are in your DMs.
00:46:00
Speaker
every bloody day. um And I think it's testament to that need for us to cultivate meaningful connection and community outside of online spaces because online spaces are amazing. I love the cult.
00:46:16
Speaker
You know, the cult, you know, cult catch ups, you know what it's like for us all to kind of get in a room and how much we benefit from the fact there's people there from all over the world in different time zones. And we wouldn't be able to do that without zoom. But if I'm feeling completely starved of that in the form of just being able to meet someone and have a coffee in my kind of day to day life, I think we do really suffer. I don't think we're designed for that. I don't think the old oxytocin serotonin dopamine can just do online.
00:46:45
Speaker
um But pick when people are feeling more alienated or disconnected within their immediate communities, they fall prey to this parasocial relationship more because they feel more of a connection to you through the fact that they feel like they need you to feel seen, which it just sucks. It sucks that we're at a point where, societally, people feel so shut out of.
00:47:10
Speaker
and not a part of. And for that, like I said, I love the fact we can kind of create these alternative like online spaces and communities, but there just needs to be that awareness within that. I think of the fact that like, is this someone that I know on Instagram, who I follow on Instagram, or is this my friend? Is this the appropriate person for me to be unloading all of my personal woes on in in a direct message? Or would it be helpful for me to kind of come back to home base and explore a little bit more in the immediate vicinity in terms of meaningful connection? I think that's why I love podcasting because
00:47:48
Speaker
It's kind of above the rest of social media because people actively choose me to listen to and do nothing else but listen or wash up or whatever. There's no scrolling. There's no looking at different tabs. you know I love that. yeah But when I go to stuff like which events and people go like, oh my God, it's really weird. I've just been listening to you in my car.
00:48:09
Speaker
And I love that. I feel like, oh my God, you know, because I've always got this little bit of capitalism hangover, like, I want to be a famous witch, a famous ish witch. So it's lovely to think people sort me out, listen to me and like me. And that's a childhood thing as well. Like, people like me and I'm still getting over that. And that's the thing, you know, like we can, celebrating our success is really important and recognizing that we want to be seen.
00:48:33
Speaker
and valued and appreciated for what we do is is completely normal. It's a good thing. It's a motivating thing. And I love that for you. I think the thing for me that's weird, people people will recognize. i A lovely woman, wonderful person. i'd like I just met Tommy in like King's Cross in London.
00:48:53
Speaker
ah before we headed off down to Margate, a little trip I did last month. And those women were like, oh my God, your cult mother. I thought it was you and then I heard the voice. yeah you The entire train station can hear me. you know like ah And she's like, oh yeah, you helped me so much with like learning Taro, because she lives in Brooklyn. Who doesn't love that? That is really cool. Being like recognized, valued, appreciated, someone taking the time. What's more difficult is when people go, oh,
00:49:24
Speaker
thought I thought you were smaller.
00:49:29
Speaker
and like I'm very tall. I'm over six foot tall. Very striking, right? So people go, oh, just I thought you were smaller. Oh, I thought you'd be more like this. Just keep your opinion to yourself, Wendy. If you can't say anything nice.
00:49:44
Speaker
Because it's tantamount to being like, no, it's a bit disappointing meeting you in real life. Yeah, I know. So that's another, an absolute, another podcast topic there is like, why do you think you've got the right to say something about how I look? What the fuck? Yeah, so you've got parasocial relationships. Because these people are like, I see you on my phone every day. So I just assume that you're this big. Yeah, you're this big. You only ever see head and shoulders, you see. Like a brownie. Yeah.
00:50:13
Speaker
They're like, this is fraudulent advertising. I feel deceived. Yeah. I thought you were you were tiny. How dare you? And again, it that's the tricky thing. People have an expectation ah that might be very far away from reality. That's not my responsibility.
00:50:28
Speaker
that isn't my responsibility. And I think, you know, coming back to like which business and building a brand, building an online persona, you have to be aware of your audience, but also what other people think of you as none of your business. Again, it's always that very fine line. It's a very tough path to walk. It's a fine line between the two in order to kind of reconcile that and get that completely right.
00:50:50
Speaker
I just love how many little quotable sentences there is in here. Okay, good. I love that. Yeah. What other people think of you is none of your business. What other people think of you is none of your goddamn business. I love that. I love it. Says the Leo.
00:51:05
Speaker
I always know when it's Leo season because all the Leos tell me. Yeah. But you don't get that with Virgos. Virgos don't go down going, is Virgo season? They're like, I've got so much shit to do. I've got to get my ass back in order. did The moon's up. I need to do this. I need to do that. I'm too busy. I think the thing with Leos is is that people just need to be aware of the fact that it doesn't end. Leo season doesn't end, right? I don't know why we're all so quick to point out when it's happening, because for us it's Leo season 12 months from the fucking year, right? yeah
00:51:36
Speaker
It's my party, it's my parade, it's my time, it's my microphone, it's my spotlight, even when I am at the self-checkout. Self-checkout, me, I go to a person, me, I'm on the connection. You know, yeah, there are none. My, here's a little that bit. Oh, that sucks. Yeah, my local Sainsbury's, they've just closed all of the regular checkouts and all of them are self-checkouts, which means everyone is standing there with like a random bag of spinach, like unable to scan it. ah Because I hate it, I really do hate automation in these environments. Like you said, I like having a chat, I like having a conversation with someone at the checkout. And and I think that, you know, even when we think about kind of people who are maybe a little bit more disconnected on their own, losing those little interactions can be can be really impactful in a negative way. Like I remember coming over to Northern Ireland, where it's not really post pandemic for a lot of people, you know, as as we were kind of adjusting and shifting
00:52:34
Speaker
the rules and the regulations are around COVID and realizing that I'd missed how much I'd missed those little conversations and those little interactions. Like pete buying a ticket off the bus driver and then giving you a smile. and and a laugh and you know, and I just, I'd hate to see a world where everything becomes automated and we're all shuffling around, you know, tapping the phone and not having that opportunity to remember. And I think there's a risk, there's a real risk of it. I think it's getting probably a bit less now, but there was a point of maybe a 23, you know, we're just like, what the hell? Somebody serve me, somebody talk to me. I'm kidding. I remember a bus driver getting off a bus to help me put my suitcase
00:53:15
Speaker
into the into the hold and and I think i but I was booked onto to a later journey or something. And I said, of have you got room? And he went, we'll make g room. And I was just sat there like a little tear rolling down my cheek because I'd been so starved of that being in lockdown in a big city felt very, very anonymous. It was a very, very hard time. So yeah. So let's all sabotage the self-checkouts. That's all. Yeah. ah A movement. A movement to bring bring back people.
00:53:45
Speaker
Introducing the Jasper Cacao Project, your gateway to spiritual enlightenment through the power of cacao. Jasper Cacao is ethically sourced, fairly traded, organically grown and crafted with love to bring you a truly transformative experience. The Jasper Cacao Project honours this ancient tradition by offering you the purest form of cacao free from additives and preservatives.
00:54:10
Speaker
With every kilo sold, Jasper Cacao donate funds to the UK Charity. Plant your future, enabling farmers to sustainably grow their crops in the most eco-friendly way. Check out my bio for a discount on your first purchase where you will receive 15% exclusive affiliate discount. Expand in love with every sip.
00:54:31
Speaker
In terms of which businesses, what would you class as a which business? Because it's it's probably quite varied, isn't it? Anything and everything. If you're sending feet pics to that person that pays for your pedicures, which business? Yeah, I think for me, you know, which biz is just those businesses where the do it by this design doesn't fit anymore. Where you have to kind of break the mold a little bit and you have to know who you are, know how to play to your strengths and know what it is that you kind of offer other people. You know, that idea of where do we show up in service? What are we doing making creating that doesn't only benefit us, but kind of benefits our community or the collective. um But for me, absolutely, like I said, which biz is more
00:55:18
Speaker
That mortgage advisor isn't going to take me seriously. That I'm not necessarily going to be able to use a lot of the marketing playbooks that you find online and that is going to be a fit for. for one person and and not for the next. So anybody that's got their own little bit of hustle and their own willingness and drive just to kind of play by their own rules, suck it and see. For me as a witch biz, that's a witch biz. It's that being aware of that system and that structure that you have to absolutely operate in and be a part of because we all need to survive, but also looking for those little gaps and cracks where we can start to wriggle loose.
00:55:51
Speaker
and free and start really figuring it out for ourselves that's really exciting for me and i think that we're ready for it i think even when you look at the high street you know in britain the average british high street now is a gregs and a couple of charity shops if you're lucky we've stopped doing business in the ways that we used to And so people are hungry for or really ready for people to fill those gaps and fill those spaces and to do it in ways that maybe they haven't seen or they haven't experienced before. So I think it's a really exciting time for entrepreneurs, for creatives, for witches, ah because again, everyone is very unwell. So if people call themselves healers or light workers or whatever, however it is that they kind of want to
00:56:39
Speaker
move or show up in the world. This idea of I have a genuine desire to connect with and support others in a way that I feel will be beneficial for them. I think we we just need it. People need to stop sitting on their hands in terms of the services that they could be offering um and get into it and and help unplug a few more motherfuckers from The Matrix because it's tough work and I'm tired and we need you. yeah and It's like every time I do people book readings with me because they want to talk to me about how I've made a living doing this and how they can do it themselves. And it always comes down to what is your motivation? Because if your motivation is to be a big deal on Instagram and become an influencer and have people endorse you and make loads of money, you are never going to get it where you want it to go. There's nothing wrong with that. More power to you. If that's what you want, go get it. Get that bag. Like I love that for you. But which work is something different? Because if you try and do it without integrity,
00:57:38
Speaker
um without genuine authenticity and without people really being able to see and understand who you are and what you offer it probably isn't going to find the legs that you want it to because this is work where fake it to make it is not a strategy and we need you we need you we need you we absolutely need you like seriously i like I could probably have an entire crew of card readers at the moment. It's something that I'm kind of looking at at the moment because I've got more people who want to write card readings than I can accommodate and I know that there's plenty of incredible card slingers out there and I think we all need to start moving in that way as well and not being too kind of ah guarded or protective of the clients that we do find you know like I'll have people be like oh yeah and I've i've been
00:58:19
Speaker
worrying about this and it's more relevant to a field of expertise, awareness, practice for someone else and I'll send them in that direction. yeah Send them to that person, send people to the place that they're gonna find what it is that they're seeking um because they'll remember you, they'll be thankful for that, they'll come back round. I hate to see the same kind of gatekeeping, guarding and girl boss bullshit that none of us love about capitalism perpetuating kind of which businesses and which spaces. It grinds my gears.
00:58:48
Speaker
Just the act of sharing audience, of ah signposting, you're actively rejecting and refusing capitalism by doing that. You're not in it for yourself. You're not hungry for it. You're going like, I know somebody who can do this. I'm going to tell you about them. yeah And then they will really be surprised and be like, wow, that's amazing. it And do it as well. And then before you know it, there's a ripple effect.
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah, there's that there's that synergy, there's that connection, there's that community, but I think you know we absolutely, and and it is happening. We have to have this conversation about the commercialization of witchcraft and the fact that as much as I love witch businesses and I love watching people take that leap of faith and embrace that risk and do the damn thing and have all of the excitement that comes with that kind of journey, there's also people that are like, I'm going to sell you some crappy Chinese glass, ah call it crystals and laugh all of the way to the fucking bank.
00:59:47
Speaker
Right. And that's real. It is there. It is there. People are like, okay, I'm going to buy a multi-pack of this on TMU and I'm going to put it on my website. And because it's a new moon, all of you bitches are going to buy it. Right. Because what do we do? And we're just perpetuating capitalism. We're just turning which work.
01:00:06
Speaker
or witchcraft into, well, you need to buy this and you need to have this. And then, oh, guess what? Fresh spin of the wheel. So now you've got to go and buy something else. So as much as I love all of these, the journals and the top endless decks, endless, endless decks, right? I'm China.
01:00:27
Speaker
Yeah, totally. It is that idea of like, we love our knickknacks and we love our little treats and I'm not taking that off anyone, like truly. It's a case of, again, you can't just talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. So I love finding knickknacks in charity shops when it comes to my smelly candles, can't get enough of them, but there is a ah Northern Irish candle company and I know the person who's pouring them and I will go and buy them and you won't catch me dead in a TK Max. It's just, I don't understand why, as if as individuals we want to succeed and thrive and be more kind of community minded in our businesses, we are still taking our coin and our custom to so many places that are so antithetical to that. so
01:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think if I'm going to pop off today, it's just this idea of look, you do not need another bloody crystal tipped this or mass produced plastic water bottle that's got a pair of pointy shoes on it because it's got fuck all to do with being a witch. It's it's all aesthetic. It is. It's just aesthetic and and it it bores me and I'm sick of the sight of it and and not wanting to be included within that.
01:01:46
Speaker
or seen or perceived in that way is something I've struggled with in my business this year as well because everyone's like yeah well let's collab on this and you should make this and we want to get this into print and the hot item just sat there a lot of the time like nah. Do you know how many people want me to sell vibrators for them? Vibrators? I don't know what it is about this face Smiles. I don't know what it is about my brand. it Right?
01:02:08
Speaker
The number one email that I get from people who want me to leverage my Instagram following for their benefit, basically, is this whole, we're having a revolution in sexual pleasure and enjoyment. And I'm like, I'm still not, I love that for you, but I'm still not sending dildos on my Instagram. Like, I don't know. I don't know how I had to keep telling you this, but I can't find a way to incorporate that into what I do with any actual integrity. So I'm not doing it.
01:02:38
Speaker
you know we have to think about the void that we're trying to fill with all of the shit that we buy and for me which craft and which work is about coming back to the simplicity of sitting and staring into said void. Sometimes doing it at the beach, sometimes touching some leaves but this idea of I it has i have to have the hair dye and I have to have the outfit and I have to have the accessories and I have to So everyone knows I'm a witch. um And we've thought, I've been there, I've done it. I used to keep a very aesthetic alter. And then I realized the only reason I was keeping it was because it was aesthetic, um which meant that there wasn't any real intention behind it. And as you know, without intention, you're not going to be making very much magic. So it would be so easy for me at this point to be like, cult mother this and cult mother that, and here's some fucking stickers. And you need this. and And there's some stuff I wanna make. There's some stuff absolutely that I'm gonna be doing this year. um But all of it still has to come from that place of, I think this is cool because I like it, right? Like I think it's cool. I think that it might be helpful to you or supportive to you in this way. Cause it's been helpful to and supportive to me in this way. And so everybody can take their little plastic cauldrons and...
01:03:57
Speaker
When I set up the Patreon, people saying to me, are you going to make something to send out to people? I was a bit like, but it's just shit. You know, it's a sticker with my brand on isn't going to go anywhere. It's going to go with the bin. Nobody wants that shit. its Yeah, but yeah they they do, but they don't. They want it, but they don't really want to pay for it.
01:04:16
Speaker
What is that as well? You know, that's a tricky thing. It's like me at the moment, it's like, I know people want me to do t-shirts. I know there's a lot of shirts I could do that would sell. Again, we love money, but hate capitalism. But again, it's the way that I do that. It's like, ideally, I'd love to do small batch. I want to know the people who are screen printing them. I want to, but if you do that, you're looking at 40, 50 quid a shirt. It starts getting on untenable. So then I've started looking at these kind of drop shipping platforms, and but then you're like, you don't even know.
01:04:44
Speaker
you don't even know which company where is printing what. You can't guarantee the quality of it. Like there's a lot of pros and cons. Again, it's that very fine line you have to find and how to walk it in a way that works for you, I guess. I mean, I do get cross of myself because I am a very stuffed person. We don't really own because when we snuff it, it's going to be left here. It's just stuff. Yeah, left here in landfills, unfortunately. I think, you know, that's the thing. We we live in a system that has hardwired its literal programming it's it's hardwired in and it is affected to it is connected to an effect serotonin dopamine right we are chemically we have to be regulate where we are here we are chemically.
01:05:25
Speaker
and all these devices that we use and the way that we buy things, it's all connected. It's all of a matrix, a framework, and we are hardwired in, right? I'll be like, ah, I need to pre-order that new book that'll arrive and I'll put it on this shelf of books. And have I read it? This is the thing. And I and i think that's, people collect Toradex because they love the artwork. They love having 25 decks, you know? And again, if that's you and you enjoy that, I'm not here to take that from you. It's just, again, that ah that little moment of awareness, just that little bit of pause where we go, do I actually need this? Yeah. And especially do I need this because this person online has told me I have to have it because otherwise I'm not doing it right. I'm not doing it properly. That's what boils my blood is when
01:06:14
Speaker
Big platforms, influencers are like, you're gonna need this 75 quid lump of quartz, otherwise you're not gonna sleep well at night, you're not gonna feel well. I'm just like, go to the beach, have a little mindfulness moment, pick up some stones off the shoreline, they will have exactly the same effect. It doesn't have to cost you money, and I think that's gotta be like a core moment of awareness for people that wanna build businesses with integrity.
01:06:41
Speaker
if you've got something you make and you sell and you want people to have it and own it and love it, that's gorgeous. I love that for you. Let's just not over elaborate the necessity that person maybe has for that thing in their life because then it becomes predatory. And don't even get me started about predatory when it comes to which work and which businesses and having to move with awareness of people's vulnerability and how easy it is to exploit them. And then again, who are we if that's the work that we're doing when we're we're supposedly anti-capitalist, you know? Like I said, do I really need the ah box of candles that I'll get delivered today from my friend here? And not no, but yes.
01:07:20
Speaker
Right? Because again, we need those little treats. We do love the dopamine that it gives us, but the idea of somebody bankrupting themselves because they have been made to believe that they need certain accessories to be part of the coven. I get it. I understand it. I don't like it. I don't approve of it. And I i don't like to see it online and in online spaces.
01:07:42
Speaker
Don't buy crystals from Wish and Teemu, just don't do it. Well, you're not buying crystals. Don't buy crystals. That's not what that that is. And if you're like, yes, but it looks pretty, gathering dust on my windowsill, if that really brings you joy, then then so be it. But this idea of like, yeah, I'm a rebel witch and I'm buying cut glass from China en masse, it's just maddening to me, it is. So British and and Irish crystals for us. Don't think they need to be coming any further afield.
01:08:12
Speaker
from any further afield than that i i personally don't find brazilian child mine amethyst very calming or relaxing don't feel like the vibes are where they need to be it's been such such a varied conversation i love it No, it has all over the place of me, so i as you can guarantee. So if coming back to witch businesses, is because I feel like we're kind of dropping to an end, have you got any tips you'd give somebody who's going to start a witch business that is feeling a little bit cautious? What would you say to them? Just do it. Just stop rationalising.
01:08:44
Speaker
and making excuses and get into it and get on with it. Because the journey that you will go on, even if it ends in some abject horrible failure, will be far more interesting and far more stimulating for you than if you just stay sitting on your hands. You know, my grandfather used to say, it's better to say I had it than to say that I wish that I'd had it. And again, outside of owning stuff or having stuff, when you apply that to experiences, I'd rather say, well, I had the experience. I gave it a shot. I tried.
01:09:12
Speaker
than to wonder what it could have been like. The only problem I think with that is that it's the what it could have been like that remains like a delicious dream and a delicious fantasy. And sometimes people prefer holding on to the one day aspect than run the risk of it never actually coming to fruition. So I know it's tough. I know it's difficult. Also, I would say if I can do it, anyone can do it.
01:09:35
Speaker
The reason I'm very supportive and very positive is that when you've actually taken the leap and looked at where it can take you, it's tough to see other people still sat. Do you want to be like, look, hey, I'm out here. I'm doing it. No, I didn't die yet. You know, I didn't die yet. I'm still kicking. I've gotten to do some really cool stuff and I'd love, I'd love that for you too.
01:09:58
Speaker
Yeah and I'd say don't hold on too tight to your dream and now you think it's gonna happen just kind of trust trust the universe I always say that. Totally and I think also I mean a lot of the time it's just not that deep. People make absolute mountains at a molehills in the early phases of trying to get anything off the ground. It's absolutely infuriating like the amount of people that I will be coaching with they're like Yeah, but what if I sell 50 right when you've sold 50 and that's the problem that you have we can discuss that we can Check back in see how it goes. But before anyone sold one They're worried about the overwhelm that will come when it is really sick and you just get out of your own way absolutely wild to me the way that people
01:10:42
Speaker
put these barriers blocks problems in place themselves and that's not to say there aren't real systemic barriers blocks and problems that we absolutely have to tackle that we might need some help or a hand up but you want to do it just do it because it's like dr. pepper what's the worst that could happen That's one of the things that has helped me most and still helps me today. Run the worst case scenario. Get really close to it. And it might actually be okay. It's never usually as dramatic or as drastic as we've told ourselves that it's gonna be. But I think you also have to get comfortable with failure. I think you also have to know at times as well that
01:11:19
Speaker
You'll be o okay. You'll still be a whole human unless you want to be an alligator trainer or something. I don't know. Like at the end of it. And it's like, I think for me with cult mother, I was always okay with it not working out. I'm still okay today, right? If they take away my Instagram account tomorrow, if it all went dark, if it, you know, if for whatever reason, I don't get to do this for the rest of my life, I know I'll be all right.
01:11:45
Speaker
I know that there are other things I can do. There's other opportunities out there for me. So I think, you know, being like, okay, this is just where I'm at and what I'm doing right now today. And who knows what tomorrow will bring is another way of kind of quietly and gently cultivating that stability and cultivating that that success because you're ultimately releasing the result.
01:12:06
Speaker
you're not It's not about trying to get to an end goal or an end place, it's constantly moving with this awareness of this is just who I am and where I'm at right now and tomorrow everything could change and as and when it does, I'm gonna be okay with that. And that's why we do it because capitalism tells us to do it, so don't do it. Trust. yeah Capitalism says don't trust. Strangle everything to death. Yeah, I mean this is this is, let's face it, this is a system that requires people to be compliant through fear.
01:12:32
Speaker
Right? But then at times we we we don't do things because we're like, but I'm gonna get into trouble. And we're like, with who? With who? The wizards? Like, where are where all these, you know? Other than HMRC, file your taxes. They're serious. They're some serious wizards. Yeah, of course it takes guts. It's really, really brave. But as soon as you start seeing and understanding that the only reason that you sit for eight hours somewhere that you don't really want to be doing something that you don't actually enjoy,
01:13:00
Speaker
is because this system tells you that there is no alternative for you. like The minute that you actually start dreaming or desiring an alternative is the is the cathartic, kind of or almost alchemical point where you start the creation of that alternative for yourself.
01:13:18
Speaker
That's why I love it. That's why I'm so excited because I think, you know, witches will change the world. There's going to be so many of us choosing to do the other despite the fear that comes with it, which is capitalism's greatest fear is that regardless of the pressure and the control that we'll just want to seek the alternative anyway, because it surely has to be better than where we're at now. I do really genuinely believe we can build something different and we can do it differently and our communities will look different and we'll be different as people as a result. And also join the cult.
01:13:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean all don't because there's enough of us. You know what I mean? Like, ah you know, that's the thing. I think we have a responsibility within our spaces, you know, within our communities to also, you know, it isn't about gatekeeping and you're no longer invited or you're not allowed in. But like I said, if something gets so if the cult got so big, it's actually actually antithetical to like the work I want to do there or the way I want to feed people to fill when they're a part of it, then you have to kind of close it down. You have to you can't be like, I have a million people in here if all of those people feel isolated, lonely, lost, disconnected because we are not really building community or building some sort of weird sycophantic hive. I don't need it. I don't want it. Don't join the cult.
01:14:33
Speaker
I love the call. I'll be good if it's just it. No, it's amazing. I mean, you know, with the with the Patreon, it really was a case of like I said, I always felt very weird in certain spaces. Like I've always felt like a T-Rex in a yoga class, you know, like I just I'm just this big tattooed emo weirdo. And I was like, wouldn't it be cool if I was just I just did that and other people who are like me or felt like me could move into that space and we could kind of hang out and I've, and I've gotten to collab, you know, like there I was one day being like, well, if Jessica Dawes doing it, if Michelle T's doing it, if Latisha Carte-Mounts, he's doing it, what is the point? And those are all three people that I've collaborated with. They've all been guests in the cult and I've gotten to work with them and do other projects and it's been absolutely amazing. And so again, if I'd sat there and been like, well, what's the point because they're already doing it, I would never have, I've never have had those experiences.
01:15:25
Speaker
I asked the cult what they wanted me to ask you about and they all said graveyards. So I don't know if you want to quickly say something about graveyards. Do you know what? I've got so many books here on graveyards. and There's many books I could recommend. And I was thinking about this this morning. I was thinking, why do witches love Why, and I think for me, right, graveyards, the reason I like graveyards and I'm a like actual taffophile, which I found out is the word for people who are obsessed with cemeteries as a taffophile, PH. h It's because we're people that have probably had to get comfortable with our own mortality and with death. I think people who understand that death gives meaning to life are the people who enjoy creeping around crypts.
01:16:13
Speaker
I'm also, of course, really into symbolism, really love symbolism, and cemeteries are absolutely full of esoteric symbolism. And my name's Graves. So that's as much as I can really say on cemeteries. I just, you know, photo shoots in the graveyard with my bum out. That was a different era of cult mother, for sure. In the snow, may I add? No, in the snow. If you want a juicy exclusive, swells.
01:16:42
Speaker
Oh, go on. I actually shot the red lingerie snow covered cemetery set because I had a crush on someone. And I had this plan that I was going to send them one of these pictures, saucy pictures of me and my red lingerie in the cemetery i are for Valentine's Day. And so I get home from the cemetery and I have to go in the bath immediately because everything is so cold. I'm worried I've got frostbite and it's actually going to fall off. Right. but And I sent this person this picture and they replied Don't catch a cold. No. Which is all I needed to know. You know what I mean? You're like, okay, okay. I thought maybe there was an opening, an opportunity there for me. And you've let me know in no uncertain terms that that's just not the nature of this connection. So there we go. I usually end on a plug, but I kind of feel like I shouldn't plug it because of what we've been talking about. No, you can plug. You can plug me. Your Instagram account is?
01:17:42
Speaker
Cult Mother Tarot, C-U-L-T-M-O-T-H-E-R, T-A-R-O-T, not Cult Mother Tarot 1, or Cult Mother underscore skull emoji, beware of imposters, impersonators, and scammers, there can be only one. And it's trademarked as well, I need to attach that. Yes, I have a UK trademark, but in an attempt to deal with all of the copycat accounts on Instagram and TikTok, I own the trademark for Cult Mother. So if you try and Cult Mother,
01:18:12
Speaker
um I'll come for you with my legal team. How anti-capitalist is that? You're being warned. I don't have a legal team again. That whole legal team would be just me with the certificate I have from where I had to buy the trademark. It's very stressful. Waving your finger, which is very powerful. Thank you for coming and talking to me on my little witchy podcast. Oh my God, Swales, I'm so, so delighted. And it's been an absolute pleasure to be a guest today. And hopefully you'll have me back in the future and maybe I can prepare a
01:18:44
Speaker
episode on why certain graveyards are more spooky than others or something like that.
01:18:53
Speaker
you have been listening the bell which Created with Love and Magic by me, Swales, the friendly green witch. I love to hear from you and I absolutely love, love, love, love to celebrate you. If you have a podcast or a business, a witchy business, a pagan related topic you love to talk about, you can reach me on the bell witch podcast at Yahoo!
01:19:20
Speaker
dot com Send me a trailer and I will absolutely play it, because there is magic in sharing audiences amongst podcasts. music by jeff harvit of pixabay the official bell wait photographer is the lovely beverly thornton thank you so much for choosing the bellitch podcast to fill your ill their magical witches