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E31: Nazaré: “No fear, no limits!”
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Welcome to Nazaré, Portugal.
A small fishing town north of Lisbon that has become the Colosseum of big wave surfing.
Waves at Praia do Norte are so big and powerful that professional athletes from around the world travel here every winter to test themselves against the Atlantic.
What fascinated me when I first heard my guest talk about this world…is that big-wave surfing is not really about surfing.
It is about teamwork.
It is about decision-making under extreme pressure.
It is about risk management.
It is about preparation.
And strangely enough… many of the lessons from Nazaré apply just as well in business.
HURRY! Last hours to get your name in for the raffle and have the change to win the PRICELESS Nazare experience with Francisco and Red Herrings in Nazare!
If 100 members of the alumni community make a gift to the Partners Scholarship during Giving Day, Jeff Clay will pledge $100,000 of his own to help secure the future of the scholarship and honour Denise’s memory.
The MBA Partners Scholarship in memory of Denise Kaplan is a beautiful way not only to honor the memory of Denise, but to also help extend the legacy of our class, while showing our support for Mike.
As a reminder, we also have an anonymous donor who will match the first 80k euro.
Giving Day runs from the 19th to the 26th of March 2026 and offers a simple opportunity for us to come together once again. While larger gifts are always impactful, what matters most is that we take part together as a community. We truly hope 100 of us will come together, so we get Jeff to spend every last cent of his check!
To make a gift to The MBA Partners Scholarship in memory of Denise Kaplan follow the link: https://www.insead.edu/alumni/classes/mba-partners-scholarship
Together we are stronger.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This is Republic of Insead in a new 2026 O3D limited podcast edition. I am still Milena Ivanova and will be your host yet again. For how long? God only knows.
00:00:13
Speaker
The 2026 edition is about life that happens while we make plans for it. I am back on air because bunch of you asked for it. Truth says I love doing these conversations, but another truth is to do them properly takes time. And I don't know about you, but I'm always short on time. In any case, it is a pleasure and a privilege to be able to have these conversations and to be able to share them with all 432 you,
00:00:43
Speaker
the c class of all three d Life happens and time happens. We are hopefully still all the wiser, naturally smarter, and as charming as ever.
00:00:54
Speaker
Welcome to the Republic of Inciad 2026 limited podcast edition and enjoy the show.
Big Wave Surfing Dangers
00:01:01
Speaker
I'm reeling from my latest wipeout, out of breath, seeing stars.
00:01:05
Speaker
Muscle memory takes over and I grab the sled with everything I have. There is no time to celebrate Lorenzo's latest in extremist rescue. The jet ski's impeller cavitates in the white water, masking the sound of the massive wave detonating behind me.
00:01:22
Speaker
I realize our predicament when what feels like a couple of Olympic-sized swimming pools land on my back, pinning me against the sled, then rolling me underwater alongside a 400 kg ski.
00:01:36
Speaker
I feel the pressure but build in my ears. My vest takes longer than usual to inflate. I'm deep. This will take a while. I focus on staying calm.
00:01:47
Speaker
I surface a few meters from the upside down ski. Lorenzo, dragged by a strong underwater current, comes up about 30 meters away. I am on my own.
00:01:57
Speaker
I climb onto the hull, flip the ski and restart it before the next wave reaches me. I head straight for Lorenzo, pull him onto the sled and drive toward the relative safety of the shore.
00:02:10
Speaker
As I get there, I find myself in the middle of a relentless shore break with very little room to maneuver. It is high tide. I forgot. Our spotter, Keitana, is shouting on the radio, trying to guide me back out, but I can barely hear her over the waves and the engine.
00:02:29
Speaker
I feel like I'm inside a pinball machine, bouncing between walls of white water, the shore, and the sidewash that seems determined to flip us again. I spot an opening.
00:02:40
Speaker
No time to hesitate. I accelerate toward the horizon and clear the first wall of white water. The next one doubles up. Bad call. The radio goes quiet. Lorenzo is shouting instructions that I cannot hear. I ignore him.
00:02:55
Speaker
My head tells me to stick to the plan, gun the ski towards the white water, and try to climb over this this three to four meter wall of angry water. But my heart tells me that is enough.
00:03:08
Speaker
Turn around, beach the ski, call it a day, have a warm shower and go back to the office to catch up on emails.
Meet Francisco Roque de Pina
00:03:15
Speaker
What would I do?
00:03:19
Speaker
Welcome to Nazareth, Portugal, a small fishing town north of Lisbon that has become the coliseum of big wave surfing. Waves at Praia do Norte are so big and powerful that professional athletes from around the world travel here every winter to test themselves against the Atlantic.
00:03:38
Speaker
What fascinated me when I first heard my guest talk about this world is that big wave surfing is not really about surfing.
00:03:49
Speaker
It is about teamwork. It is about decision making under extreme pressure. It is about risk management. It is about preparation. And strangely enough, many of the lessons from Nazare apply just as well in business.
00:04:06
Speaker
Some of you may already be guessing who is in the recording room with me today. I say welcome to the Republic of Insead podcast to our own Francisco Roque de Pina, hope I so did it right, who told me he sometimes feels he has three different wives to keep happy, spends winter pulled into opposite directions, and balances life mostly by not balancing.
00:04:31
Speaker
Big wave surfing is his hobby. Agriculture investing is what pays the bills. His family, i take, is the shock absorber and the gravity pull of it all.
00:04:42
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast, Francisco. After all this drama that I narrated, happy to have you and finally do this conversation.
00:04:54
Speaker
Hi Milena, thank you very much for for having me on your podcast. I really enjoyed listening to it before our 20 year reunion. And so I'm delighted that you agreed to continue under a bit of pressure in our WhatsApp group. And I'm even more delighted that you invited me to talk about Nazaré. It's obviously something that I like to talk about. So I am thrilled.
00:05:15
Speaker
We should have a full disclosure, actually. We will release this tomorrow. So we are recording on Wednesday, 25th of March, and tomorrow is the last day of Giving Day.
00:05:28
Speaker
I must say, this recording was planned before you offered to to make the experience part of the Giving Day um competition or fun in our class. But therefore, we are rushing the release. We were going to release maybe a few days later, but now we will release on the last day of Giving Day. So the raffle is still on for those of you listening on the spot upon release. And thank you so much for offering it again. We'll talk more about this later. but um
00:06:03
Speaker
Let's talk, so as I mentioned, the intention today is to talk about big wave surfing and the lessons one can take from it and apply it to a business context. And you recently joked in our WhatsApp group about our aging bodies.
00:06:18
Speaker
So I very much also want to hear your experience and wisdom on how to keep an aging body in shape. What you do clearly needs a lot of in shape. So um certainly you have something to say on both subjects, considering the sport you are actively pursuing and also considering your business undertaking. So there you go.
00:06:42
Speaker
let's Let's go delve it delve into it and start from the beginning.
Journey into Surfing
00:06:47
Speaker
Francisco and big wave surfing, the connection or how you got to this stage.
00:06:57
Speaker
Sure. now just Just before I start answering your question, I'm going to comment on your disclosure. I think it's really important a very important disclosure. So our colleagues don't think that I bribed you into putting me on your podcast. And and since we are doing disclosures and disclaimers, also, you mentioned my my the three wives.
00:07:15
Speaker
And so to be clear, just in case my wife, Marguerite, listens to the but this podcastcar podcast and gets this far, and That was a figure of speech in an unguarded moment when I was speaking with you informally. So let's be clear. i only have one wife.
00:07:31
Speaker
There's absolutely no competition whatsoever. Never was, never will. One wife, one business and one hobby that all pull in different directions. So that's the allegory for the three wives. Yes, full disclosure. she yes So with that out of the way. So i honestly, I don't think I was ever meant to to surf anymore. let alone surf big waves. I was born and live twenty lived 25 years near Geneva and in Switzerland and I used to spend all my summer vacations in Stubal, which by my estimate is the only place in Portugal that doesn't have any waves. Even in the Algarve you have waves, that place, because it's a river mouth, has basically no waves. So when I went to to Rio on family vacation in 1986, I was 10 years old. I was shocked, number one, to see waves in a local beach and even more shocked to see someone riding those waves, surfing those waves. and There was no Instagram at the time, no internet. So so obviously I was not exposed to that. And and that was really love at first sight.
00:08:36
Speaker
i mean I remember but I have that image very clear in my mind. I saw a surfer doing what's called a floater, which is when a section of the wave is closing and you basically you you ride over that closing section and land on the other side.
00:08:48
Speaker
and just there I decided I'm going to do this, which is a bit ironic or it's weird the way our minds work because I was living in india by the time living in Geneva, had some of the best skiing in Europe, half an hour to one hour away. And here I was getting in love with something I could not, not practice. So anyway, on that vacation, i convinced my mother to buy a bodyboard and because I think surfboard was way too expensive and and too much of a challenge to take back with us to to europe and uh but since we were two my sister and i my mother was very pragmatic and instead of buying two normal bodyboards or one that we would share she bought two tiny bodyboards that could were virtually useless you couldn't use them for anything i don't even know why they were created or what they were sold for i don't know if it was for hamsters to be bodyboarding um but we use those
00:09:40
Speaker
Basically going in the waves with those things, just like ah people today use hand planes to do bodysurfing. And so that was my first experience of being in the waves. ah That's also probably where the seeds of Nezere was planted. and because I remember at the time I was 10 years old, still quite physically weak, and and my sister was 12 years old and she would easily go past the white water and be in the lineup with the other surfers, whereas I was basically getting smashed in the white water and I was getting very frustrated because she would make fun of me. So recently she was telling me, actually she was telling me, i am probably responsible for your dedication to Nazare, you have something to prove to the world.
00:10:23
Speaker
Anyway, so That was mostly platonic love, obviously, because I was living in Geneva. And for several years, I was really living this passion through magazines. I would get surfing magazines from Portugal, from Brazil, from France. and but but And I was just reading about surfing, reading about these amazing, incredible ah spots in in tropical places and just living by power of attorney, he basically, just just reading those magazines. And as I started growing up, becoming a teenager, i started becoming a bit more independent. So on vick when I was in vacation Portugal, I remember going to spend a week at an uncle uncle's place in Figueres de Forges, where there were waves.
00:11:02
Speaker
There I bought my first surfboards from a competitor in the local QS event, which was the second week of the the world tour. I bought that board. I started learning surfing with that board. And today I look at that board, which, by the way, I used in the in the booth of the action team during Welcome Week. And I look at that board and I and i wonder how could i learn surfing on that? It was like a competitive board, very thin, no volume, nothing.
00:11:27
Speaker
ah But still, that's that's what I used. and Then I got my driving license, started when I was on vacation in Stubel. I would get the car and go to surf spots around Lisbon, Caprica, Guincho, Praia Grande.
00:11:41
Speaker
But really... and until Until my last year university, my experience of surfing was a couple of days here and there, and spending a lot of hours in the water and learning without having any instructions. There were no surf schools at the time. There were no no YouTube videos, nothing. So it was, ah I mean,
00:11:59
Speaker
I had a bunch of obstacles and I shouldn't have learned surfing.
Balancing Surfing and Career
00:12:02
Speaker
And then in my last year of university, i did an internship in Rio de Janeiro. And that's where we started surfing for three months. At least I was surfing quite regularly all the weekends, but also sometimes during the week. I bought my first custom made surfboard, which was really big thing for me. and But then back to Switzerland, back to Switzerland, finished my studies, started interviewing with all the usual suspects at the time, consulting companies, Swiss private banks. And and that was depressing. I couldn't see myself working and living in in Geneva much longer. and um And I remembered that on my last day in my internship in that investment bank in Rio, and I went to say goodbye to the owner of the bank.
00:12:44
Speaker
And I was surprised to see that he knew me. There are certain reasons why he could remember me. I will not get into it. and Interesting. which has Which has to do with breaking a record of Fernet Branca's shots at the lunch yeah lunch on a Friday. Anyway, and and and I went to to thank him. And he said, yeah, I know very well who you are. and Everybody loves you.
00:13:09
Speaker
If you want to come back, you can come back. and But I didn't really really didn't really register at the time until I got to these interviews. And and suddenly I started questioning what I was doing. And um and so I decided to start my career in ah in in Rio.
00:13:24
Speaker
And I would be lying if I didn't if ah if if i told you that it had nothing to do with surfing. Clearly, subconsciously, I wanted to go to to to be in a place with that where I could surf. and And so there um well I moved to Rio and I had an amazing year and then I was surfing very regularly.
00:13:39
Speaker
ah i started progressing. I started actually finally getting to surf decent waves and But then after one year, I got an offer to go back to work at Rothschild, to go back to Switzerland, to Geneva, to work at Rothschild, where also done an internship, with the promise to go back to Brazil a couple of years later to open an office. So for me, it was fantastic, fantastic opportunities. I went back to Geneva, but then the emerging markets crisis happened.
00:14:03
Speaker
and And so I got stuck in Geneva for four years. and So I stayed in Geneva. By then, and my compensation was pretty reasonable, so I could afford to travel to very nice places like Costa Rica, Cabo Verde, Maldives, and so on to surf.
00:14:20
Speaker
so to keep the You can surf in the Maldives? Yes. It's very good. You have certain places where, well, actually, a lot of places where you can surf. At the time, it was fantastic because there weren't that many surfers. Nowadays, it's getting harder because there's plenty of surfers, so it's quite crowded. But it's fantastic because the ways i the waves are fairly easy.
00:14:39
Speaker
The water is warm and it's sunny and it's super comfortable. So yes, my answer the answer to that is yes. so So I was doing those trips, but I was still not enough. So after four years, I decided to to take a break um to do an MBA.
00:14:56
Speaker
But just like work was an alibi to go What's that? An MBA? Exactly. And just like ah just like ah like ah like and working was an alibi to go surf in Rio, This was a bit of an alibi to do ah to to take a career break and do a round-the-world trip. So so I passed my GMAT, I did one single ah MBA application, two INSEADs.
00:15:22
Speaker
and So fantastic. and Very focused, but not not the best risk management for sure. And... then and I was going to say, it gives us an idea about your attitude to risk management or approach. so Yes, sorry. and and and and and um And so before I actually was even called to interviews by INSEAD, I left on a seven-month trip around the world to go so to go surfing and kitesurfing. And that was amazing. I surfed a lot, many spots.
00:15:55
Speaker
I improved a lot my surfing. I managed to do some interviews for INSEAD while I was in Indonesia, which was a bit of a challenge. and And I got accepted. So I got to INSEAD. Then I got into the craziness of INSEAD.
00:16:08
Speaker
Before P5 interviews around the corner, I still have no idea what I want to do with my life. and But then at that time, you will remember that the job market was pretty bad. And so if you, so applied, I didn't know what to do. I applied to the consulting firms, a couple of investment banks.
00:16:25
Speaker
and um And then I got dinged by a lot of them. and But then I got an offer from Booz Allen, which I assume was a false positive. and Because I went went, I remember on the first meeting, the guy asked me, so which office did you apply for? And I couldn't remember, which is actually not, not, not,
00:16:44
Speaker
Not such a good start. Anyway, in large part because of surfing, because at least two of my interviewers were really intrigued by my surfing, by by by my listing surfing as as as one of my interests. So we spent half of the interviews talking about surfing. I got, to my surprise, I got a job in London.
00:17:03
Speaker
and And since at that time... You thought it was in London. Yes, exactly. Who knows knows. Yes, yes, yes. I thought he was in London, exactly. For two years, I was not in London. this And um and so so anyway, at that time you had an offer, you took it. So I took it, moved to London with Margarida. And then we married in 2005. And for the next couple of years, surfing really took a backseat. I was fully focused on work. Work, as is as you know, in consulting is pretty intense. and But i still managed to slot in a few trips. So in 2005, I took a group of friends, including Gustavo, Javier and Justin from our promotion to to Bali for my stag trip.
00:17:48
Speaker
Then in 2017, I don't know how I took Rick Ellis with me on a boat in Bandache in northern Sumatra. At the time when Bandache was still in civil war. yeah and And we had amazing waves.
00:18:00
Speaker
And my last trip then was 2008 with Gustavo in El Salvador. And then work happens in sense that I... I left consulting, but I went into a very entrepreneurial company. And then I set up my own business and I was virtually underwater and kids happen to. And so between 2008, 2014, no surfing at all. Maybe one day here and there when I was in Portugal. And in 2014, I was invited to a trip in Indonesia, again in Sumatra, in a place called Telos Island. And that was best trip of my life. Amazing waves, no crowds, a very remote place.
Team Dynamics in Surfing
00:18:35
Speaker
And then... And turns out that I was on a cloud two months before the trip, preparing, thinking about the about the trip and two months after. And so much so that after a while, Margarita told me, you should do a trip like that every single year. Because obviously, I was a much more pleasant company. So I took her at her word.
00:18:56
Speaker
And since then, I've been doing at least at least one such trip and they got be in an exotic place, mostly in Indonesia, actually, every single every single year. so So the result of that is when I moved to Portugal in 2017, with the exception of one year in Brazil, I'd never lived next to the sea.
00:19:14
Speaker
And I had just been surfing inter intermittently. But I was also old, 42 years old. And so with with with age comes experience, I surfed in many places. And so I had a decent, I was a competent surfer.
00:19:28
Speaker
and not very technical, not very stylish because I learned by myself. I didn't practice regularly, but I could virtually surf any type of waves. and um and But importantly, I had absolutely no experience and zero interest in surfing big waves. It was just not something I was interested in. I had heard that there was this Nazaré place in in ah in Portugal that... Really?
00:19:54
Speaker
You had just heard? No, I had heard that read in the magazines about and McNamara that broke the world record. But this was in 2017. He broke the world record in 2011. So it was still a very recent thing.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I really had no interest in pursuing that. But... um Then I have a friend who tells me about the jet ski rescue slash driving course in Nazaré and tells me let's do it. And so we were the three of us, him and another one another friend who signed up.
00:20:29
Speaker
Of course, last minute they bailed out, so I went there alone and I spent two weekends fully immersed in Nazaré learning about driving jet skis. And not just driving jet skis, but doing rescues, and and first aids, and as apnea training and so on and so on and i remember really being uh how do you say um being being being really fascinated by finding in surfing something that i thought did not exist which is team working because surfing is a very individualistic sports dominated by large egos um and and there suddenly there was one sub segment of the sports where you needed a team where your life is in the hands of other people where you are you to get to go in the water any single day you need at least four people um two jet skis one sporter uh once two pilots and one surfer so working as a team so that that attracted me a lot and then i got over enthusiastic about the jet ski and all the equipment to to do toe surfing so toe surfing is big wave surfing you have two types of big wave surfing there's this
00:21:36
Speaker
few more the pure one, which is paddling with huge weight we use boards, which you can do to a certain extent in Zarae up to certain size, for which you still need the...
00:21:49
Speaker
the use of a jet ski as safety. And then there's toe surfing, which is essentially it's close to wakeboarding in the sense that you are on a smaller, shorter board. You are being towed into the waves and the jet. So just he puts you in the waves and then rescues you.
00:22:03
Speaker
And this is about the equipment to do toe surfing, but not to surf in Azaray, but because I knew that there was close to Lisbon, a secret wave that the friend told me about.
00:22:13
Speaker
ah not Now, in my experience, I can tell it's one of the best waves in Portugal, if not the best wave, but that you can only surf with a jet ski because it's in the middle of the sea and there's a lot of currents, so you cannot paddle. and So I bought that jet ski with the intention of surfing there, not surfing in Nazaré.
00:22:29
Speaker
But then, you know how it is, you have... ah You have the e equipmentp all the equipment. Then someone one day, my instructor in Israel tells me, hey, why don't you come with your new jet ski, suffer a few waves. I went, had the first session in small waves, and that was incredible because caught 20 waves in a session or 30 waves in a session, and I didn't wipe out. And that was incredible. The feeling was absolutely incredible. So I went back a second time with medium waves.
00:22:57
Speaker
And that went equally well, if not better, because the waves were even bigger. And I started feeling like Superman. And then I went a third way at that time with big waves. That's the day when I met Lorenzo, my my the co-founder of the of Red Herring's.
00:23:12
Speaker
And that day didn't go according to plan. I basically got nailed by ah a huge set. A set is a series of waves. The waves usually come in sets. And i I got like 10 waves on the head. I ended up with the jet ski that came to rescue you on the beach. My brand new jet ski rolled onto the beach. crawled out of the water on my on all fours. and And I remember standing on the beach after all that.
00:23:37
Speaker
and and thinking, okay, Francisco, you're pretty old to to be doing this. Again, I was 42 years old at the time. um The rational choice would be to to give up, and just stick to smaller waves, or if you're going to do this, just take it and more seriously, and you you you need to practice the do the train up naa physical training, to be prepared mentally, physically, and really take this seriously, and the most important thing was to find someone I could trust to partner with, because again, it's ah it's it's a team sport, and that's Ironically, that day I met Lorenzo. Ironically, I got nailed by those 10 waves because of him.
00:24:14
Speaker
And ironically, he also got nailed and we met on the beach at that time. And there was that's where our our relationship, our sporting relationship was born.
Applying Surfing Lessons to Business
00:24:24
Speaker
so um we talked quite a bit a bit about um the your experience surfing big wave surfing uh red herrings and and the takeaways for business from that so if we take this whole experience now and
00:24:48
Speaker
let you go through and for the nerds among us, uh, Francisco can share a full presentation of all the lessons you can apply from big wave surfing into, but into a business context, but let's go into, so you said discipline, teamwork preparation. So working as a team, um,
00:25:11
Speaker
ah what are the main takeaways that you can apply from your experience and how it helps you actually in business? So talk a bit about that.
00:25:24
Speaker
Yes, it's... it's um It's something we do when when we, we with from time to time, we organize ah keynotes. to We do keynote presentations to corporates. And one of the subjects, we talk about risk management, about about about resilience in big wave surfing and so on. And one of the things we discuss is the parallels are or what are the the things that I've learned ah from big wave riding big waves that helped me in the business setting and vice versa. But focusing on what what what what ah what app what has changed in me through that experience, the main one is I've become a much more decisive person.
00:26:03
Speaker
And I've always been quite instinctive as a person. I've always, but I've never really tried previously and I didn't really trust my my gut feeling.
00:26:14
Speaker
and and And so I compensated, and being because I was insecure. And so i compensated that initial gut feeling by spending... Can we stop for a second? A man who admits being insecure, that that I should pop a bottle of champagne here if I had it. Thank you for that.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yes, thank you. That's that's rare, but i'm im yeah fine I'm fine with it. No, no, for sure. I mean, yeah I'm old enough to be able to to to to to recognize my weaknesses and that's one of them, insecurity.
00:26:48
Speaker
and um And so I always compensated that's that's that... I always tried to compensate that insecurity regarding my gut feeling by overanalyzing things. and And the natural...
00:27:02
Speaker
consequence of over-analyzing things is analysis paralysis, procrastination, and not really making a decision, which sometimes work in a business setting. so Still today, there are these certain decisions I do not take because with time, and there's more information coming. Sometimes there the the decisions take them take care of themselves and without my intervention. But that's something that's a luxury you do not have when you are in Nazaré. So in Nazaré, it's a very chaotic, fast-paced environment. and As you described in introduction, you see all the things that happen, all the things that that all the decisions that you you are facing at any point in time.
00:27:40
Speaker
And i I tend to say it's ah it's a succession of binary decisions, or very quick binary decisions. Backwards, forwards, left, right. back Backwards, forwards. Jump over the wave, go back. And you are constantly making those of those decisions with in a coed chaotic environment and without... It's not even having perfect information. It's with totally imperfect information.
00:28:03
Speaker
So you need to trust your instincts. And turns out that, and we can discuss this more later, but... Big wave surfing is for me the only place where I get in the zone, where I'm in flow. And it turns out that we are incredibly equipped to to to analyze a lot of information without knowing that we are even analyzing it and then making a decision and trusting that decision. So I have become much more decisive.
00:28:27
Speaker
And nowadays, whether it's in business normal life, I'm much quicker at taking a decision, not hesitating, taking a decision and then living with the consequences. Because that's what I felt the thing in SRA. You make wrong decision, you live with consequence. And that consequence can be the jet ski flipped and destroyed on the beach. It can mean you losing your surfboard in the rocks. It can mean you leaving your partner getting nailed by 10 waves, but you have to leave. You know that that can happen and you leave those consequences. So I've become, I think, much, much, much more adept at making quick decisions. And quite frankly, it's a relief now making decisions in business. It's much easier you know,
00:29:11
Speaker
And it really becomes a breeze making decisions. So for me, that was a big change. some other Some other things that that um that I've learned is being adaptable.
00:29:22
Speaker
So Of course, everything keeps changing, so you need to adapt. But in this array, you need to adapt last like in a fraction of seconds so because it's constantly changing. And then and sometimes you you plan. and so Most of the time you plan and you you want to stick to your plan. And circumstances change, opportunity arises, because but because it's not you haven't planned for it, you will hesitate. In this array, you cannot do that. And a good example, actually, it's a good good moment to to plug ah the visit I had from Ricky and Mike when they they came to Nazaré with me. These two guys, they were extremely lucky because they got one of the best days in recent years.
00:30:02
Speaker
um The waves were incredible. and And so there was an event, like a competition slash event being run that day. And... And that day i was I was with them on the jet ski. I was not participating because I was not invited to this event. and So I was with them on the jet ski watching.
00:30:20
Speaker
i was really gutted because the conditions were incredibly good and I couldn't really surf. and then And I had these two guys cracking jokes on the back of the jet ski and being amazed by what we were seeing. And was still fun. I managed to flip the jet the jet ski in the lineup with them, and which I'm sure they recall. Anyway, at some towards the end of the day, this was a competition, but it's like an open competition. So people are surfing all day. It's being filmed. Then it goes on TV. And then they say, basically, they give grades to people. And then...
00:30:50
Speaker
And so, so, so there's no, no, no fixed time. It's it's the whole day. And at some stage when we were about to to go out, Lorenzo was participating with another surfer came to me and said, do you want me to put in you in a couple of, of waves?
00:31:04
Speaker
I said, sure. So I left another guy with Ricky and, uh, and Mike on the jet ski, and I went to catch a couple of waves. And Lorenzo puts me in six waves, like in five minutes, which is a lot of waves in a very short amount of time. We were really in the zone. Things was perfect.
00:31:19
Speaker
I wanted to continue catching 10 more waves at least. And then suddenly Lorenzo tells me, Francisco, just grab the... the I just finished a wave, I was on on the sled and and and Lorenzo shouts, Francisco, come pull the toe into the next set. And so because of our training, we changed very quickly.
00:31:39
Speaker
I started towing him towards the the sets and and we adapted our plan. Our plan was for me to surf, but it was still in competition. He saw the set of the day coming.
00:31:51
Speaker
um So he swapped with me because we are very well trained. We did the swap in two seconds. I started towing him. And I remember, i mean, I was at that time, I think I was, i was in the, I was feeling I was in the zone because I i managed to, I remember towing him towards the that set of waves. There were like four or five waves. Everybody was rushing because those were the best waves of the day. And so I kept, I kept super calm.
00:32:16
Speaker
I picked my wave. I think I put him on the third or the fourth wave. So I didn't rush. I didn't i didn't i didn't do what I usually would do. um But I really picked the wave. I put him on that wave. It was an incredible wave. And he got second in the in the contest with that wave. So that was a good example of of ah being able to to... It's a good metaphor for for when the opportunity arises, just just change, adapt your yeah adapt your your plans and just go for it.
00:32:42
Speaker
Just don't tell the guys were organizing the the competition that I was driving because I was not participating in the competition. But they did not notice that that I was the one putting him on that way.
00:32:54
Speaker
And there's a bunch of other of other of other lessons you can have. and But these these are two that I think are important.
Managing Fear in Surfing
00:33:01
Speaker
How about fear as a driver? um When you're sitting there and there's a massive wave building in front of you,
00:33:12
Speaker
Does fear manifest itself in the body or this is when you talk about when you're in the zone, it's ah something different happens? but so ah it's it's ah So, yeah, it's a very good question. First of all, it might sound in the same way that I admitted to being insecure. ah I hear opposite. I will not admit to have fear. and Because i I don't, for some reason... no fear that No fear! Exactly. No fear, no limits. No, it's it's it's quite funny. Because i i when I started surfing in Nazaré,
00:33:49
Speaker
I obviously felt anxiety. i remember when getting on the jet ski and driving the, or sailing the the the three or five minutes that it takes you to get to the lineup and you see these massive waves crashing, i would feel a certain anxiety.
00:34:04
Speaker
But then as soon as I grabbed the handle, the rope and with the handle, um I was fully focused on what I was doing and not and and didn't feel any anxiety. So no fear, no anxiety. and And I don't know what explains that. I don't know if it's because I trust a lot to Lorenzo or I trust in myself or whatever. But I should have been in these situations quite fearful because those waves are massive and they are scary. It's like ah buildings are just crashing. And I've had a couple of of situations that were really...
00:34:39
Speaker
really hard really tough, and where if you'd asked me before, I would have told you, yeah, if that happens to me, I'm likely to panic. And as a matter of fact, I stayed super calm, super focused.
00:34:52
Speaker
And I think in flow because I remember exactly what I did, why I saw everything in slow motion, which is a bit of a cliche, but it's true. Time time distorts and things become slower. And everything I did was quite deliberate. And I faced the music without without panicking. so so So there's always a bit of anxiety.
00:35:13
Speaker
There's always a bit of concern about the consequence of what you are doing. But um i don't I don't haven't really felt fear in Israel, which is probably a bad thing.
Founding Red Herring
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah. So you keep mentioning Lorenzo and then Red Herring. So maybe it's time to explain that bit or that situation. What is Red Herring? How did you get to it? We understood how you met Lorenzo, both of you on the shore, damaged for the day.
00:35:47
Speaker
But... What happened after? How did you get to to be team Red Herrings? And what do you do other than ride the waves yourselves? Yeah, sure. Basically, we we how did we meet?
00:36:01
Speaker
So on that day, where where I had my first real wipeout and bad experience, and I was surfing with my instructor, the guy who taught me all the those rescue things, etc. And that guy had a team called Jet Resgat. And a few weeks after our our course, he would take us to the waves and put us on the waves. And he's an amazing jet ski driver, super good rescuer. So everything was always, I always felt safe with him. But on that day, we were several students. ah quote unquote and waiting for our turn and it was cold and uh and miserable on the jet ski and uh lorenz was there with us and he came to me and said francisco do you want me to tow you into a couple of waves which i thought initially was a bad idea but i still because i didn't know him but i said yeah okay no no problem i'm fine and he put me in a couple of waves but after that he told me now i'm going to paddle because there was a day that was borderline paddle borderline towing and um
00:36:59
Speaker
He told me, but I can ask Faustino to put you in a couple of waves. I had no idea who Faustino was. already didn't know who Lorenzo was, but then he was taught telling ta me about this Faustino guy and he must have seen it in my face. And he said, don't worry, he's the jet ski driver for Jean Gage, who's a big wave surfer, Portuguese big wave surfer. And so I didn't even know Jean Gage, but I took that as as as a credential. And I said, OK, fine. And that's the guy who put me on a wave, missed the rescue.
00:37:26
Speaker
He stopped three meters away from where I was. I grabbed the toe rope. The guy took off, broke my finger, and then I got nailed by 10 waves. So indirectly, that was Lorenzo's fault. So then we found ourselves in the beach and because everybody was trying to rescue me. He himself, he got caught. was paddling and he got caught by the same set, but no one was there to rescue him because everybody was focused on me. So really, if fate put us together there on the beach and and we agreed to surf again the the together. so So we started. And the deal I had with him because I didn't know how to drive a jet ski was and i would go to Nazaré.
00:38:00
Speaker
I would do his safety with the jet ski while he was paddling. And then he would tow me in a few waves. And that's how we we we we operated for for a little while. Then over time, we we we we started surfing together bigger and bigger waves. Then we needed to have a second jet ski for second rescue, because when it's big, you need a second jet ski. And so we we I got a second second jet ski on the assumption that it would be easy to find a a pilot whenever we need one, which turned out not not to be the case. and um And then over time, things started getting more serious and we're traveling with the jet skis, going to the north of Spain and so on and on. And then and and for me, it went this went from being a hobby to becoming a serious hobby with serious consequences to then
00:38:47
Speaker
a becoming a proper thing in the sense that I noticed, i told you before that I noticed the importance of team working in but big wave surfing. Now, big wave surfing comes from regular surfing.
00:39:02
Speaker
ah no Regular surfing is very individualistic. And so as a result, even though big wave surfing is ah is a team sports, because it is full of very individualistic, egotistic surfers, people end up not really operating as teams. So just to give you an example, Red Bull,
00:39:21
Speaker
That was at the time, I think the only proper team or a so-called team in Nazaré. Amazing warehouse with ah six or eight or 10 jet skis, all with their colors, a bunch of lockers for 12 surfers and so on. And the reality, these guys did not operate as a team. They would all surf independently or have like temporary alliances between them, but continuously shifting. So they were not training regularly as a team. and that's when i sat down with lorenz and i said okay we need to be different we need to create a team with our own name which turns out to be red earrings initially it was a joke to to red red bull red earrings if you see the the thing and and it was it was a bit of a joke but we said we're going to have our own team with our own identity the team is more important than the individual surfers and then and and and we're going to create a structure that allows us to get sponsorship to
00:40:15
Speaker
first of all, reduce the costs. I was bearing most of the costs at the time. But to provide someone like Lorenzo, who was 20-something at the time, with the the infrastructure, the resources to develop a career in big wave surfing and without running risks or without actually not surfing on a good day because there's no money for the for the for for the gas or because the jet ski is broken or so and so on. So the idea was to create ah team to get sponsorship and build the the the right structure framework to develop young big wave surfing talents obviously not mine i would just be ah an instrument in that thing then um uh one day had i had lunch with uh with with a friend of mine with a swiss guy who was uh uh his name is adeline adeline coigny who was a um
00:41:08
Speaker
a foundation and that supports projects related to the ocean. So it supports young surfers with sponsorship. It supports an amazing and an amazing organization in South Africa called surffer surf Surfing Not Street Children. So essentially an organization that uses surfing to in Durban to to to to to help children and prevent children in the streets to to get involved with drugs and things like that. And then and I told him about this this this project to set up ah to to professionalize our team. And he loved the idea.
00:41:41
Speaker
and But he also said, but i have i have a problem with with this is that it looks to me like it's a very highly polluting sport, which it is. You burn a lot of a lot of gas. and And I would really like to you guys to do something to to compensate that. And I said, no problem. What we can do is you commit X amount every year and we commit to pay that forward. by organizing a pro bono educational projects and to compensate for that. So, which obviously this concept evolved a over time, but the concept we have today is so someone gives us a ah one euro in sponsorship, that one euro goes towards the structure to develop big wave talent.
00:42:23
Speaker
and But then the people who benefit from that, who are the surfers in the team, they pay forward by dedicating the equivalent amount of time to teaching children to surf, to doing presentations about team working in schools, and taking ah children from a local organization you called Academy of Johnson.
00:42:45
Speaker
to experience Nazaré and so on. So it went from being basically a hobby to a um but to ah to a serious hobby to actually becoming ah a property. team And so Smile Wave has been supporting us since 2021, I think, for a very long time. And and we've done a lot of things together. um Then over time, and well, a couple of years ago, we had another big sponsor, Private Equity Funds. But for their own reasons, they committed to fund us for a couple of years. And for for their own reasons, they actually defaulted on the second year. And and we had spent money counting on that money.
00:43:19
Speaker
and so So there was a big hole, which then I filled. I basically i stepped in with my my my own. and But that's when I had a conversation with Lorenzo and I told him, we cannot depend on sponsors.
00:43:34
Speaker
and because they are fickle. We need to have all the sources of income to to cover the costs. And and from there came the idea of of having of moving. Basically today, the team is a not-for-profit association. But then from from there emerged the idea of creating a business around this.
00:43:51
Speaker
So Red Airings nowadays is essentially an organization that does three things. Number one, and develops local big wave talent. Second, does pro bono educational activities.
00:44:05
Speaker
And third, for profit elements, which involves providing water patrol services to sporting competitions, whether that's surfing competitions, whether that's swimming competitions. and We've been supporting quite a few events like that. and But also organizing corporate events in Nazaré.
00:44:27
Speaker
So not just corporates, with companies, with sports teams. We've had companies and sports teams coming to Nazaré. And there we do three types of activities, what we call adventures, which is the part that you did. Come to Nazaré, visit, see the waves, go on a jet ski, on a boat, then on a jet ski, have fun in the water, visit our warehouse, et cetera.
00:44:47
Speaker
Then we have what we call immersive activities. um And they are basically, it's taking, ah imagine a management team in a company and training with us, training up near in a swimming pool, which is really fun because it seems simple, but actually you get very quickly out of your comfort zone. and So you have a lot of exercises with relays, team working and so on. And and just to give an example, at some stage, we had said national rugby players in the, players,
00:45:16
Speaker
rugby players from the Portuguese national team with us. And it was incredible. These guys had just come back from the World Cup and we put them in the swimming pool. And after 30 seconds, they were totally out of breath, out of their ailments. And so so so that that really, really challenges people.
00:45:31
Speaker
And then we have what we call ah more reflective activities, which is really keynotes. So we go we do that in local in Nazaré or we travel. For example, in June, now we're going to to London to do this at ah in front of 200 associates at the bank to talk about and about about resilience in big wave surfing, lessons lessons that that you can gain from big wave surfing, ah risk management and things like that. So it's become quite a complete ah complete package.
00:45:59
Speaker
That keeps me yeah really busy, as you can imagine. top of ah riding the waves and on top of it running your business, which in a second we are going to turn towards that. how many How many sessions with clients are you able to do per year with paying clients that you train on risk management, on teamwork, on resilience,
00:46:27
Speaker
I think we can easily do two or two to three per per per week. and We're obviously not even close to that. But we yeah can we can easily do two two two to three, potentially more than it's a matter of of having more people delivering those those sessions. I am the bottleneck in this ah because I've got, as you mentioned, my my my my my my my job, my full-time job on the side. and then and On the side? because Exactly. You see, I get to a point life where the full-time job is on the side. That's a good that's a good progression. There you go. Exactly. but But I realized that I've been the bottleneck in the development of this thing. So so recently we've we've decided that I would...
00:47:09
Speaker
step back a bit from the day-to-day running of of of of red earrings. And now Lorenzo is is ah is ah is is really taking taking the the leads on developing that activity. and And so the only constraint we have is that in summer, there's no constraints at all because there's no waves.
00:47:25
Speaker
In winter, but some days are... very good for surfing and then we need to find ways to accommodate both things. So it's ah typically the day like the one when you came, there were waves.
Agricultural Investments
00:47:37
Speaker
um you we We might organize our activities around the surfing window, and but that's nice also for the for for the for for the company, for our clients because they see us surfing and that's part of the excitement.
00:47:51
Speaker
Yeah. So let's let's switch to tell us about the business, the land group. regenerative farming. We spoke about this. So what exactly do you do for a living or on the side?
00:48:06
Speaker
so my myself That pays the bills. That's the hobby. That pays the bills. and ah So basically, it's a 10-year-old company. It turned 10 years in in January this year. And then It started in 2016 with a my Uruguayan business partner, Joaquin Labella.
00:48:29
Speaker
and We've been working together since 2012. And we created this in because we saw that an opportunity to help ah European family offices that had invested in real assets in South America and regain control, restructure and manage distressed real assets. You will remember there was there the commodities cycle went bust around 2013, 2014. But just before that, there was a lot of excitement with South America. China was buying all the commodities that South America produced. And so a lot of investments were made at the top of the markets with
00:49:06
Speaker
paying over the odds with the wrong local partner, with no controls and so on. So we saw there an opportunity to to help the investors and take over the management of those assets. Initially, we were focused on renewable energy because Joaquin and I, we had been before developing and building a run of river hydropower projects in the middle of the jungle in Peru. And then we also helped some investors with real real estate. And then we ended up working in agriculture. And and very quickly, agriculture grew to become 100% of our activity today. So we did not set out to do regenerative agriculture. I'd love to to say that we were visionaries and that in 2016, we envisioned that we could see that in 2026, regenerative agriculture would be a thing. and Now, a lot of people talk about regenerative agriculture, natural capital.
00:49:57
Speaker
yeah But it was not the case. We got there. by by accident uh as we turned around those assets we found that several of the farms that we we were restructuring had ah severely depleted soils and because the owners or the previous owners and the tenants had been farming soybeans or monocultures for a very long time without rotations without rotating with other crops without rotating with uh with with cattle And the solution was to introduce cattle. and We had zero experience building cattle operations from scratch.
00:50:31
Speaker
We had zero experience actually managing farms. Joaquin got to work and and put together the teams. And we we started with one farm. We managed to convince one of our clients to to do the experience with us. And we built a 5,000, 6,000 head cattle operation at that farm.
00:50:50
Speaker
um And as we did that, we started experimenting with cattle grazing. So going from the typical Uruguayan landscape where the cows like extend are managed extensively, which turns out is not good for the cows, is not good for the land, to a model where we concentrate the cattle. Imagine we concentrate 500 head of cattle in one hectare.
00:51:14
Speaker
for 24 hours and move them ah across paddocks every 24 hours. And it turns out that number one, it's more profitable because you can have more cows per hectare, therefore more kilos of meat produced per hectare. So that's very important for our clients. that they they' not I would be lying if I told you that our existing clients are very concerned about sustainability. Their number one concern is recover was at least at the time recovering the investment and making money. So we showed them that we could improve the return, but not just improve the return, but improve the quality of the lands, increase biodiversity, and increase ah improve the quality of the of the pastures, all of which reflects at the time when they they decide to sell their lands. So it's really one of those rare cases where sustainability goes hand in hand with higher returns. And in doing this, we developed what's called precision grazing,
00:52:05
Speaker
which is we haven't invented. We just took the principles of something called adaptive grazing or adaptive multipathlet grazing or holistic management, which is quite practiced by a lot of people, not at scale. Very few people practice it at scale the way we do. And while we did it, we fact we we adapted those principles to our own circumstances in Uruguay.
00:52:26
Speaker
We applied it at scale across 20,000 hectares. And now besides growing it in in Uruguay, we've also applied it in Paraguay and we are currently applying it in Portugal and Spain. And and we really became a specialist in regenerative livestock livesock grazing management.
00:52:44
Speaker
So Spain and Portugal, we had this discussion about the fires and the lack of water in parts of both countries. um And you actually told me that by by farming this way, you improve...
00:53:03
Speaker
the situation with not only with soil but with water. Can you like expand a little bit on this as in, and I take the point of investors care about the returns as opposed to the so sustainability, but by the time you get better returns through being sustainable, then you are able to grow this business. So can you expand a little bit on this?
00:53:28
Speaker
Sure. what One of the pioneers of of this this type of grazing is called Alan Savory. He's a guy from Zimbabwe. and we will Essentially, his story is quite interesting. He tells his story in ah in a... in a in a TED talk that was viewed, I think, 10 million times. And I recommend people watch it. It's quite interesting. He used to be the manager of the of the the national parks in in Zimbabwe.
00:53:55
Speaker
And he was the guy responsible for calling, I think, 10,000 or 20,000 elephants at some stage. Because he thought that there were too many elephants that could not be supported by the land. So he deducted that by by by shooting all these elephants, essentially there would be less pressure on the land, therefore less desertification.
00:54:12
Speaker
And he saw the opposite. Actually, land desertified more. So that's when he realized there was something wrong and in his assumptions. And so he started experimenting and he came up with something called holistic management, which is really similar to what we do.
00:54:24
Speaker
and And then he started preaching his gospel across the world. And in his TED Talk, it's quite quite interesting because he applies that to places in Africa where he shows a desert. And then 10 years later, it's all green.
00:54:37
Speaker
which it's ah It looks magical. um It looks... ah it's It's actually hard to believe that it's the same place. But the reality, there's several different explanations for for it. But this what but when you when you do this type of of grazing, essentially, the one of the direct consequences is that you increase the organic matter in the soil and you improve the structure of the soil. So organic the organic matter and retains the water.
00:55:02
Speaker
The structure in the soil re retains the water. Can you be more specific organic matter? Can you be... organic matter. Well, basically, a lot of organic matter. So you have the the cow, like a cow that is that is grazing is going to shit. Exactly. So that's one part of the organic matter, but not just that. The cow is also going to graze the top part of the grass and the other is going to trample. And so that's organic matter that would, in an extensive system, would be, and would be, it would stay standing up and would would would would go through oxidation rather than organic decomposition. But when you concentrate them, they trample all of that. So that that matter and rots in the soil and yeah returns carbon to the soil. So the organic matter can evolve over time. So imagine you take a poor soil with 1% or 2% organic matter over 10 years, it might increase to 5%, 6%, 7%, 8%, depending on your how you manage. And that has a direct impact on fertility, on water retention, yeah and and so on. So it's quite it has a huge impact.
00:56:02
Speaker
The main impact we see in Uruguay is that we can we have richer pastures, more diversified, denser. Therefore, the land can support more cattle. In a place like Portugal, what you can see is that you can save on on supplemental foods in summer. So you can reduce a a cost that is very high because here in summer it's very dry. there's no In most places there's no pastures. and And here you actually manage to have pastures even during the dry month. Therefore you don't need to buy and to buy hay, etc. to so spend so much money.
00:56:33
Speaker
So which makes me think, you know, like innovations very often come about because of need. And at the moment, it's 2026 March and the Strait of Hormuz is closed. So fertilizers are totally stuck.
00:56:52
Speaker
So I just wonder, what's the opportunity here that people discover at scale? Because what you are doing is not at scale in terms of... So what are the opportunities for people to actually, out of necessity, rediscover this as as a way to farm?
00:57:11
Speaker
Or is that too much to hope for? No, for for sure. um that if you If you look back throughout the 10 or 12,000 years of ah human farming history, we always mixed crops with animals.
00:57:26
Speaker
So that this was always a mixed system where we used animals to help. But at the same time, the animals fed on on the biomass that was left after after after after harvest and and so on. And then And it was only after the Second World War when we started david human so the the world started developing industrial agriculture to feed billions of people that we thought it was a good idea to separate animals from crops. And that's where we got to this model where on the one hand, you have these huge monocultures that use ah a lot of fertilizer, a lot of pesticides and insecticides and so on. And on the other hand, finded and confined farming operations where we basically confine the animals in the same place. And what do we feed them?
00:58:10
Speaker
the product of those monocultures. And it turns out that the the product of those monocultures has a very high carbon footprint and because you need, the as I mentioned, fossil fuels to do fertilizers, ah chemicals, and so on. And you need fossil fuels to harvest and process and to transport to the to to those those ah factory factory factory farms. And um and and so...
00:58:35
Speaker
Now we see that with the Strait of Armour's closed, there's pressure on the cost of fertilizers and so on. Well, just look at Uruguay. Uruguay a country with 17 million hectares. 11 million hectares of Uruguay are natural grassland or native grasslands that are not sufficiently fertile to plant crops. Their only use in a very sparsely populated country, their only use is cattle.
00:59:00
Speaker
and and And the 99.99% of those hectares are farmed in an extensive way, which is highly inefficient and not even good for the lands. And so you can you can just go and convert 11 million hectares from extensive, inefficient cattle grazing to a more intensive,
00:59:18
Speaker
and more profit more efficient, more profitable, and at the same time, more sustainable farming. So it's really a great opportunity. And actually, we we see that there's much more interest from for what we we are offering these past 12 months. Suddenly, there's ah I don't know if it's a it's probably related to geopolitical concerns, to inflation concerns, and so on.
00:59:38
Speaker
But we're finding it much easier to have conversations with investors. and Whereas before, we struggled because what we were what we were were offering was too esoteric. um denish Yeah, which which ties them back together, the big wave surfing and and and your work in farming, which when we spoke before was the patience factor.
01:00:05
Speaker
And yeah so being patient and then knowing what you are after. Yeah. So is that another lesson you picked up from surfing or they just collided? Yeah, it's it's it's it's ah what what in our presentations I call and optionality.
01:00:28
Speaker
And and a lot the two things actually is staying power and optionality. Nazaré is bloody harsh. It's the harshest thing I've done in my life. It's ah it's it's a lot ofistic a lot of preparation, a lot of a lot of physical and mental preparation, a lot of logistics.
Balancing Passions and Responsibilities
01:00:47
Speaker
Every single day is a nightmare, just putting the jet skis in the water and so on. you Most sessions, you have incidents, injuries, you break equipment. and A lot of time, the conditions are crap.
01:00:58
Speaker
and then And it's quite tempting not to bother. and basically just stay in the office, which honestly I've been doing a lot lately because i my my job is demanding it. But the previous years, a lot of times I was driving one hour and a half to, well, when I started in Nazaré, I was actually, I had two jet skis in a garage in the center of town.
01:01:18
Speaker
I would wake up at three, four in the morning, pick up the jet skis, drive for one hour and a half to the harbor, put the jet skis in the water, go surf. I have a lot of things happening, breaking equipment and so on, then take the jet skis out, wash them, and take them back to Lisbon and I would arrive home at 11 at night. And thank God now we are more structured. We have this we have two warehouses in the harbor. We have It's much easier, but still, its it it demands a lot of investment. And sometimes it's easier, as I was saying, to not bother, stay in the office and focus on easier things. and But the reality, and that's something that we discuss a lot with with Lorenzo, if we want to be the best, we need to catch the biggest and the best waves.
01:02:00
Speaker
Because this is... ah visual sports. There's one competition, no one really cares about it. Well, it's an important competition, but outside of the surfing world, and it's not that relevant. and But if you break the world's records, it is very relevant. And so, for that to happen, ah you need to be all the time in the water. yeah Because you are in the water, and the conditions change. And when the conditions change, if you are in the water and you are ready to take advantage, like and the the story I mentioned before with Lorenzo, when we switched roles,
01:02:29
Speaker
You can take advantage of that. And that has happened countless times. Lorenzo, five, six years ago, got the wave of the season just that way. He basically had said, OK, he had a new miss. He lost his surfboard against the Rocks. He said, OK, enough for the day. I told him, no, you are going to continue and use my surfboards. And the next wave he caught was the wave of the season.
01:02:51
Speaker
And just happened because we insisted on staying there. Same thing, my biggest wave, which is 17 meters, i I started the day, it was the beginning of the season, and I did not want to surf because I did not feel ready.
01:03:03
Speaker
But then I was, as I was in the water and I saw people catching better and better waves, when Lorenzo came to me and said, you sure you don't want to catch a wave? said, no, no, I'll go. And I catch one wave. That was the wave. And Lorenzo tells me, okay, you're done for the day. And say, yes, I'm done for the day. So so you have to, and there are days where you are, you are it's cold, you are beaten up, you feel miserable. You wonder what the hell am I doing here?
01:03:28
Speaker
And then suddenly all the jet skis get out of the water. You are there alone. And you catch the wave of the season. It has happened to me again a couple of seasons ago. Everybody left. We were still in the water. And then I catch this magical wave with the sunset behind. And I've got this great picture of that wave. And I'm i'm very happy I stayed. Same thing in business.
01:03:49
Speaker
When we were talking to to investors, and I'd say seven, eight years ago, trying them to trying to convince them to buy a farmland in south america was a terrible timing because people were reeling from the the commodities bust and um and they would barely listen to us and i remember having this conversation with joaquin and telling him we need to be to to stay in the market because at some stage something is going to change uh inflation will come uh for example and or there will be geopolitical uh upheaval and we will be there
01:04:22
Speaker
well positioned to benefit from it and turns out that a couple of years later we had covid inflation started picking up so we started having more interest from clients and nowadays we finally feel that we we are to at the at the tipping point because we have 10 years of track records and we have proven ourselves we have a concept that not many people if any applies at scale and uh and investors are can actually looking at this type of defensive assets so we are at the right time uh at the right time, ah right on right at the right place, at the right time.
Future Goals and Achievements
01:04:54
Speaker
Give us an idea about the scale. How much land are you managing and what's the portfolio size? Sure. So we've we've in the past 10 years, we have managed and restructured 140,000 hectares of land across Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Brazil.
01:05:16
Speaker
ah At some stage we were operating. So operating is really how we were doing. We are we're rolling up our sleeves and actually doing all the work with our teams. We're operating 50,000 hectares of land, in Paraguay and in and The land in Paraguay we sold. So now we're out of that market. and So nowadays we have 20,000 hectares in Uruguay, which is about $130 million dollars worth of farmland. And we are now expanding in, in as I mentioned, in Portugal and Spain.
01:05:49
Speaker
and We got our first mandate for Portugal this morning. So I'm very happy. Hey, champagne is on you. Well, we got the mandate. Now we need to find the land. But yeah half of the work is done.
01:06:01
Speaker
half the work is done awesome so listen so let's put it all together back to those three wives and the dog wants to have a say as well you have a dog as well so we've been a good thing they couldn't hear each other because uh then it's gonna be a lot of fun so but uh one last so first of all balancing your life You manage by not managing them, by not balancing. That's that that's what you told me, right?
01:06:31
Speaker
However that works. So when I got into this, I did not expect Nazaré to become really passion and the way it became. And and and it's an all-consuming passion.
01:06:45
Speaker
And an all-consuming passion, as I told you, wake up at 4, back at 11. And I was in the early days when people when people hadn't replaced the conference calls by Zoom calls, I actually used to do conference calls on the jet ski, which which doesn't sound doesn't sound very professional, but Halfway through a session, I would tell Lorenzo or Estelle, guys, the guys and now you surf by yourselves. I'm going to take the jet ski 500 meters out in the middle of the sea so the guys on the phone don't hear the the seagulls. and And I would do conference calls there. So I managed to to sort of combine things. Nowadays, it's much harder with with Zoom. So i when now when I go surfing, I go surfing and I try not to think too much about... about about work but um the main challenge is that you do not choose the day you're going to surf you you surf when the waves are good and um and then and that may be a weekend which is great but very often it's in the middle of the week so in the past until this season what i was doing was from october to march i would really give
01:07:54
Speaker
priority to Nazaré in the sense that I would try to avoid traveling too much or or organizing calls in the morning. I would organize the calls towards the end of the day when ah when I when i could could have a break to to to do those calls. and And then I would organize my my time. if i If I went surfing on a Thursday, maybe I caught up over the weekends. And I managed to do that.
01:08:18
Speaker
This last season has been different because my job has got much more work. It's always the same thing The more you work, the more work you have. And then and I really had to to make a pause. So this year I've served very little in this array, unfortunately, but I hope to come back stronger next next next season. and But so far from 2017 until last season, I really was focusing. So there's these three wives, as you call them, or these three elements, family, Nazaré, and work.
01:08:48
Speaker
And I would be lying if I if i didn't tell you that Nazaré was top of mind from march to from from October to March. And and then from ah April to September, I would really give priority to work and family or family and work. and This year, because of what I told you, I've been better at balancing things.
01:09:10
Speaker
or not, I've actually not balanced. um i i compensated the other side. So I've been much more dedicated to both ah family and work and less to surfing. But hopefully that's tempor temporarily. But it's it's it's a difficult balance to find. And and and no one is ever happy. and my wife is not My wife and my kids are not happy because I'm either surfing or working. and My business partner is constantly pissed off because he feels I'm not giving enough to the to the to the business. and And the only one who understands me is Lorenzo because he's a surfer. So he doesn't criticize me
01:09:44
Speaker
ah There you go. And your thoughts on our aging bodies, recommendations here for everyone, and because there are specifics to male and female bodies, to the male portion of our friends and classmates.
01:10:02
Speaker
How do you keep up with... with age, keeping fit. i I'm not going to give advice because and now nowadays you have a ton of advice on Instagram or wherever you look. So so we all have advice regarding what we should do and so on. But what I will say is that and i i It's been incredible, this Nazare experience, because I've learned a lot about body and mind that had no clue about.
01:10:31
Speaker
and And by necessity, I needed to be prepared to go in the water, which meant I needed to be in shape, but also not just physically, but also mentally, and but also through injuries. i've spent ah I've spent in the past few years a lot of time in physiotherapy, and I became really a specialist in movement and things like that. So I've i've really ahve really learned a lot about our bodies. I've learned that the more you if you work your body in an intelligent way, it can take you very far.
01:11:02
Speaker
and Body and mind, by the way. I never thought I would do the things that I've done. That was not my intention when I bought my jet ski at all. And and so so so if you prepare properly, you can really...
01:11:15
Speaker
take it very far. So far that actually I went through a couple of bad situations, one of which was actually pretty close to dying. And and I look back and I think, how did I survive that? But yeah actually you can, which at the same time is a bit tricky because it makes you think you're a Superman and makes you push the boundaries. But... and so So then what do I do to to prepare? i do physical and mental training. Physical, I do a bunch of stuff. i do So my rule is I try, again, this year i haven't done it, but I try to exercise almost every day, at least five to six times a week. And it's ah alternate between apne a dynamic apnea training in a swimming pool. What does that consist in? It's essentially a bunch of exercises alternating between swimming, doing weights underwater. and
01:12:01
Speaker
um It's punishing. It's very hard, but I've been doing this for eight years and it's the best exercise I do. I do that that twice a week. I do Muay Thai martial arts. I do i do a typical normal physical training with weights and things like that. Swimming, cycling. I do mobility, I do something called gyrotonic, which is a sort of pilot. And so that's for the physical side. On the mental side, I do breath hold training.
01:12:32
Speaker
ah So whenever I can, I do some exercises, whether I'm watching TV or walking, i do some exercise like box breathing and things like that, which helps come calm my mind. I do visualization. i've done hypnotherapy. So all of these things are really useful. But I mean, the main thing is we are aging.
01:12:54
Speaker
and For me, it's very clear that I will think about whether i will continue surfing Nazaré the day I feel I'm not improving yearon year on year. But it turns out that I feel I am improving every year. I told you this year and and I barely surfed in Nazaré. And on last Friday, I came back from three weeks of traveling. I was jet lagged. I was tired. I was at i had a huge backlog of tasks waiting for me at work.
01:13:23
Speaker
But the waves were small but amazing in Nazaré. So I took the day off. And that was probably one of my best sessions in Nazaré. I surfed not just not because the conditions were good, because but because I was surfing at my best. And and while what this season i've I've been thinking a lot about, well, maybe I should start slowing down and actually focus more on on work. Suddenly I'm again super super super keen to continue. So as long as I feel that I'm getting better, I will continue doing it.
01:13:49
Speaker
But I'm 50, I just turned 50 years old and, uh, and time catches with us. So the only thing I can do is to, is to train as much as possible to, to, to, to really slow down the process of aging. And, um,
01:14:01
Speaker
Yeah, and and and and hopefully that that will work. Right now I am, I think, the third oldest guy in the Zara, but probably the old the oldest one that is surfing regularly. The other two guys are McNamara, who shows up, I think he's approaching 60, but he shows up like two, three times a year. And the other one is a Brazilian guy called Elmond Merziers, who does mostly jet ski driving.
01:14:21
Speaker
so So, yeah, I mean, that ratified the... So, yeah third oldest guy, Nazareth A and B, buddies can keep on improving. So, there is a message of hope or two. So, I like that. My last question, if we had if you had to choose never surf again or leave the business world...
01:14:46
Speaker
Which one are you giving up? Today, today, not like in 10 years. So I'm going to sort of contradict what I said before. Yeah. I think. But if I had to choose, if you put a gun to my head and say, now you need to choose business or or surfing, or big wave surfing, I would probably tell you, well, give up big wave surfing. And the reason is simple. i I feel that in business, I haven't yet achieved what I want to achieve.
01:15:13
Speaker
um There's still a lot to do. and whereas in big wave surfing because i had no expectations when i started i've really achieved things that i never thought i would achieve i've surfed at 17 17 meter wave when i was 46 or 47 years old i i've survived the two wave all down which means that i was underwater for two waves uh was pretty close to to actually passing out but i went through that and My surfing is at its best. I've never surfed so well. so So you know this thing about kidding. You quit while you are ahead.
01:15:50
Speaker
So I would quit while I'm ahead and I would find another hobby. I like that. Just to put it in context, 17-meter wave is what in in building floors? Just to visualize it for people who... Because it's hard to actually understand what... Until you see it, like when I was there, and we didn't see a big, big wave, by the way. So what is 17... So you're on top of what? And then you...
01:16:18
Speaker
Yeah, let me preface that by saying it's highly subjective because you measure based on a picture. So yeah so actually I was lucky enough that that wave was i have several angles of that wave and the picture is very clear. So it's easy to to see my height. And basically, if if you are and in the surfing position,
01:16:37
Speaker
um If I'm in a self position, I will be 150 centimeters tall. And then you you project that on the wall. ah you You see the base of the of the wave and then you count and you can get to an estimate. That's how I got to 17 meters. And I got my engineer ah father-in-law had to double check and he confirmed it.
01:16:54
Speaker
so So, but it's it's five or six floors. So it's a big building. Yeah. so yeah so it's yeah a decent building. It's a decent building. Yeah. There you
Closing Remarks and Acknowledgments
01:17:05
Speaker
go. All right. Well, listen, awesome conversation. We've meant to do it for a year and a half. So thank you. I'm so happy we finally did it. I was procrastinating. So a shout out again to Pierre Lusato as well. And then a shout out to you for A, back two years ago in 23, three years ago, now almost, you offered to help with the fundraising by
01:17:31
Speaker
ah by by giving out these experiences and Ricky Knox ran the auction. And then we managed to raise more than €10,000 from memory for the O3D endowment fund. And I thought that was that. Then we got the perk to come. You said, hey, come over and... and enjoy this. So Ivan, who loves when we first met, the first trip together was to Portugal. And he said, I have to go to Nazareth to watch the waves. I had no idea what he's talking about, but it was January 1st and he went to Nazareth from Lisbon to watch the waves. And so I thought that was that. And then now that we are running Giving Day, you send me a private message again. And you said, if you think it will help, you know, to get to 100 people, I offer another experience. So we did that. So the raffle is on people. We release that urgently on the last day of giving day so that we get above 100 people and and someone is going to get lucky and experience the Nazareth, get the Nazareth experience as we determine it's priceless.
01:18:43
Speaker
you should go and pitch to MasterCard, I'm telling you. It is priceless. Ivan, my husband, confirms that. And so um really, really nice. And thank you so much. And I would also plug in a product placement here. for all the people in our group who have teams, do consider ah training with Lorenzo and and Francisco and the team because it it is very special. And so that's it from us today. Again, thank you so very much, Francisco, for your time, for the generosity, for coming up with these ideas. The two of us, we never really knew each other at INSEAD, but somehow...
01:19:28
Speaker
This is the beauty of time passing and we are kind of like working as a team, even though we've we haven't known each other back then. So I love it. Thank you very much. Thank you to everyone who's getting into the, yes, into the raffle and tell tell us. You close. i just wanted, yes, I'm going to close. I wanted to say that what you've been doing for our promotion is amazing. And and from my personal perspective, I did not go to the Singapore reunion. I think it's 2018. And because it was in the middle of the Nazaré season.
01:20:01
Speaker
And at the time i was less i was less mature than I am today. Today I would go because it's just a couple of days. and and But I was so focused on Nazaré, I did not go. And to be honest, by that time I was mostly disengaged from INSEAD. I went to the fi five year reunion, 10 year reunion. And I remember after the Singapore reunion, you you you you added me to this WhatsApp group.
01:20:21
Speaker
and And so I started engaging again with INSEAD. Then COVID came and the WhatsApp group blew up. and And then the 20-year reunion was amazing. and Amazing with the how you built built up and things with your podcasts. Amazing the work you you guys have been doing with fundraising. So so I'm sure, i mean, i'mm I'm speaking on my behalf, but I'm sure a lot of our colleagues agree with what I say. I wanted to thank you because it's incredible. I feel much more engaged with INSEAD. I love that that group. I even like the, enjoy the the political discussions. But yeah,
01:20:59
Speaker
it's i think i think I don't know if that's the case, but ah every every promotion should have someone like you. So so if the other promotion don't have, you should try to find someone like you.
01:21:10
Speaker
Thank you, fras Francisco. Thank you so much. And we'll we'll see you again Nazaré. Let's see who's going to win the raffle. Thank you so much. And have a great one.
01:21:21
Speaker
You too. You were listening to The Republic of INSEAD now in its 2026 O3D Limited Podcast Edition. It is my hope to remind everyone what an interesting and dare I say colorful bunch of people we are and how much we can contribute to each other, it through life experiences, ideas, knowledge or mere inspiration.
01:21:46
Speaker
The podcast is inspired by the original Republic of Insead yearbook produced on paper now 23 years ago by Oliver Bradley and team. Thank you, Ollie and team for this contribution to our class's memory and for letting me continue in the tradition, title and inspiration included.
01:22:04
Speaker
Creator and author of the Republic of Inciad 2026 Soul 3D Limited Podcast Edition MI, Milena Ivanova. Original music by Peter Dundakov with help from Dare Film Productions. Stay tuned for more as and when it comes.
01:22:19
Speaker
Thank you for listening.