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"Business appears to be 20 smacks in the face and 1 little tickle."
163 Plays1 year ago
I'm sure when we started our first business together we were like “God, this is the learning one and we're just gonna smash it all the way through the rest of them”. Unfortunately hasn't quite turned out that way, it continues to be a learning experience. Turns out, there's new sh*t to learn every time.
20 YEARS IN PERSPECTIVE:
The journey is the destination.
If you ask me where I thought I'd be 20 years after INSEAD I think I've definitely, largely because of my wife, who I met at INSEAD and my business partner, who I also met at INSEAD, I am in a 10x better space than I could see, so I'm pretty happy.
So we built a great business plan, we ended up actually acquiring a series of money transfer businesses, about 11 businesses over about 7 years and built what was a pretty substantial – 4th/5th biggest remittance company in the world.
Built another business and actually just sold that business last year to a large Israeli tech company called Papaya global, which is a phenomenal outcome, actually a great deal.
We had some crazy ideas on the list, but possibly 1 of the stupidest was starting a bank.
These days one of us got a couple of businesses on the go and I'm obviously a shareholder in those and we are on the board together. I'm doing a bit of VC investing for a couple of funds actually and then we do lots of angel investing.
ON TOPIC: Start-ups, exits, entrepreneurship, partnership
I remember being worried that we might be on the front page of the FT for the first time for all the wrong reasons, having taken a regulated financial services business bust, because of the sort of leverage that we put in.
The best thing that's happened in the last 30 years is it's become okay to be an entrepreneur.
I knew when he threw the entire telephone at me, it smashed through a 32nd story New York window and went out in the pavement that maybe this was not going to be the perfectly peaceful business relationship that I'd once hoped for.
One thing the three of us all had in common, we all promoted club nights at university which is very much an entrepreneurial venture.
I just never really fitted in traditional jobs. I didn't get on with them, they sort of felt a bit either I felt I wasn't very good at them or I felt very shackled in working for someone else.
It was a good way of learning what not to do, wasn't it? We took on probably too much debt, one week we were having dinner in the CEO’s office at Barclays and they'd written us a big senior debt line and then the financial crisis came and they sort of took us into the basement and beat the living crap out of us because we'd breached the covenants.
Actually, when you hit the liquidity moment and either the company's no longer yours or the money lands in the bank account or you sign the docs, whatever it happens to be, that moment is very fleeting and actually what sticks with you is the good times and the bad times that you've had over the years.
Winning wasn't measured just by the money, or the fame, or the other stuff, but actually by having a great set of friends, enjoying good times with them and having really quality relationships in your life.
All THINGS INSEAD AND GIVING BACK
INSEAD gave me my business partner, gave my wife and gave me all the talent that has made me successful. I'm British, particularly Scottish and this still feels a bit distasteful to be this enthusiastic about something, but yeah, it's definitely been a great thing for me INSEAD.
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Transcript
Introduction and Reflections
00:00:00
Speaker
This is Republic of Insead, the 20 years later O3D podcast edition. I am Milena Ivanova and will be your host in this limited series. So, here we are, 20 years later, hopefully all the wiser, naturally smarter and as charming as ever.
Sharing O3D Stories
00:00:20
Speaker
There were 432 of us in the O3D vintage.
00:00:25
Speaker
And certainly there are 432 unique and very interesting personal and professional stories to tell. While I cannot physically cover all, I have tried to make a selection of stories that will keep you interested and curious and will hopefully convince you to join us on campus for reunion. Welcome to the Republic of Insead Podcast Edition and enjoy the show.
Charismatic Guests at INSEAD
00:00:50
Speaker
Oops, I've done it again. Thought it's time to stir things up a bit. So today I have two guests. Let's hear from them. You who shall not be named, please go ahead.
00:01:02
Speaker
None of us are likely to quickly forget someone with such a presence or such a laugh. Anywhere and everywhere he was there, in the forefront. Front row sent him in P1 to coordinating the Private Equity Conference in P3. Yes, that's his excuse for the infrequency of his cameo appearances in class. To crowd surfing.
00:01:21
Speaker
dancing on tables and performing backflip off stages as well. Pick any party, really. He tackled all of his activities with energy, humour, creativity and flair, incurring rugby industry injuries well into the third half, selflessly offering his modelling services to the September class, stretching his culinary talents to their limits and repeatedly demonstrating his late night exhibitionist tendencies. With him, one thing can be assured, you'll never know for sure what's coming next. Where will he be in 20 years? Undoubtedly in the spotlight.
00:01:50
Speaker
No kidding. And can we hear now from the one with the unforgettable presence, please? When
DJ Mikey's INSEAD Legacy
00:01:57
Speaker
not flying around the globe making international appearances, DJ Mikey has been the icon of the Fonte Forest boogie scene. Adored by the women, envied by the men, not to mention the boars, he made sure there was no lack of shaking it this year at Intiad. He's heartlessly left his fans at London clubs to pursue an independent venture, Club Auberg.
00:02:16
Speaker
As his fame spread over campus, you've seen him spinning at white, veal surf, asphalt, and if you're really lucky, you've seen him demonstrate some suave moves of his own, including the donkey. The VIP legend and mastermind behind the Oberge parties has occasionally been seen to pursue serious projects, such as to bring them global leaders
00:02:39
Speaker
and plot the Winter Ball. With classic British wit and impressive drinking stamina, this snappy dressing, smooth operator has been nothing but a delight to be around.
00:02:50
Speaker
Well, there you go. If you didn't know who my guests are, now I'm sure pretty much everyone knows. I must say it's the first readout in which someone asked where will someone be in 20 years and whoever wrote this was spot on. He's still in the spotlight, right? One way or the other. So welcome to both of you.
00:03:11
Speaker
And I've invited you, my motivation, and I must say I've been chasing these two like crazy. Last I spoke to them was that they were at the Glastonbury Festival.
Post-INSEAD Business Partnerships
00:03:23
Speaker
But anyhow, my interest in them is the fact that they've been in business together from pretty much day one after INSEAD. So that's going to be the focus of
00:03:35
Speaker
Well, that's the focus of my interest, but let's hear from them and what you've been up to the last 20 years together separately, etc. All yours.
00:03:46
Speaker
Mike, why don't you kick off? You tell the whole story and then I can just fill in the gaps. You can just do the highlights. Yeah, brilliant. Thanks, Milena. Wonderful to be here. I don't think I've lived up to the billing in the alumni yearbook. Sorry to say. I've got a great INSEAD story. Back when we were doing Welcome Week in Fontainebleau and what happy days they were with all the nutters winding us up,
00:04:13
Speaker
I went to a dinner on the first random dinner, do you remember those? At the end of the first week with some second years. Very fancy chatter and I thought this is great.
00:04:24
Speaker
The two people sitting next to me at dinner on my left was a sort of quite a loud American guy telling us about how he'd rallied around Europe in various sports cars. They're very much the center of attention. And on my right is an incredibly good looking, well-spoken English girl who drove a convertible, brand new convertible BMW. Absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, happy to say I went into business with one of them and married the other one. So, you know, for me, INSEAD has been a very, very important part of my life.
00:04:54
Speaker
Well, okay, I guess Ricky's not my story is very intertwined. After in Seattle, I did a bit of corporate stuff, I knew I did want to be a management consultant and or a lawyer or a banker like everyone else. So I went into M&A, I worked for News Corp for a bit, worked for WPP for a bit. And then Ricky and I who was Ricky was in New York working for his brother, don't think that was really working out. And we were constantly talking about wanting to do something together.
00:05:20
Speaker
So we had quite a lot of discussions. We actually got together with another guy who we should tip our hats to, a guy called Nick Day, who I do done realising entrepreneurial potential with, which is a great INSEAD course actually. Thoroughly recommended to anyone who wants to go and be an entrepreneur. Yeah. And Ricky, Nick and myself decided we'd go into business together. I'm going to hand it over to Ricky then. And the rest is history as they say. Excellent. Yeah.
Building a Remittance Empire
00:05:47
Speaker
Tell the story, Ricky. What did we do next?
00:05:50
Speaker
Sure. It was actually pretty exciting times for all of us. I had, as Mike just referred to, come out of a slightly abusive relationship with my brother. Although actually we did pretty good business together and the business still exists and I still chair it. We were doing circular economy telecoms in developing world.
00:06:19
Speaker
I knew when he threw the entire telephone at me, it smashed through a 30-second-story New York window, and I went out in the pavement that maybe this was not going to be the perfectly peaceful business relationship that I'd once hoped for. My wife, then-girlfriend Susie, was there in the room at the time, decided that maybe us hanging out in New York in a one-bedroom apartment with my brother probably wasn't the best way to pursue either marital or business harmony.
00:06:49
Speaker
So when I came back, I was sitting down and chatting to various folks about starting new businesses, and Mike and Nick were super excited having written this business plan of realizing entrepreneurial financial, which, of course, which did breed a couple of businesses. I believe that's where Olivier's
00:07:10
Speaker
Silverware Empire began in RFP as well. And the mineral water as well? Didn't the mineral water come from that? I can't remember if that was actually there, but I remember discussing the water early with Walter and the guys.
00:07:40
Speaker
Anyway, so the plan at the time was, hey, we've got this industry that we don't really understand. Well, we thought they might understand something about remittances. We were going to take over the remittance industry. This was, you know, as a migrant myself from the US, you know, and Nick Day, migrant from Scotland. I think Mike, marginally migrant from Scotland.
00:07:53
Speaker
Walter and Chris. But yeah, another great partnership, which you should definitely get on the podcast, by the way.
00:08:08
Speaker
We felt we had a lot of affinity with these customer group and knew everything about it. So we built a great business plan. We ended up actually acquiring a series of money transfer businesses.
00:08:19
Speaker
Some people know this story, but about 11 businesses over about seven years and built what was a pretty substantial, probably fourth, fifth biggest remittance company in the world. So it was a story with many, many stories within it. I don't know, Mike, whether there's anything that's worth sharing, depending on how much time we have, any particular tidbits that you enjoyed along that way.
00:08:42
Speaker
Well, it was a good way of learning what not to do, wasn't it? I remember we were buying these really quite, in some cases, dodgy companies, trying to tidy them up, desperately trying to raise money at the same time as buy companies, never having the money to buy them, but never having the companies to buy and sort of trying to get that trade-off working. I remember relentlessly
00:09:06
Speaker
data-entering bank statements or getting on the 5am Europe easy jet flight to different parts of Europe and turning up with a pitch deck and trying to persuade people to sell us their companies. It was a bit of a come down from being the head of M&A at News International. So that was definitely memorable. It wasn't like that at MySpace? Yeah, yeah. Well,
00:09:30
Speaker
There's a little bit more money floating down that business. But yeah, that was brilliant. And we learned a lot. We probably took on too much debt. Do you remember that?
00:09:39
Speaker
One week we were having dinner in the CEO's office at Barclays and they'd written us a big senior deadline and then the financial crisis came and they took us into the basement and beat their living crap out of us because we'd bring some covenants. A whole bunch of series of rides. I guess it's a phenomenal way to... It was pretty destructive to everything except for the business itself. It took an awful lot out of us, I think.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, there was a good business partner moment there when the head of the Barclays restructuring team walked in the room and said, this is now my company. And I got quite angry and nearly threw a table at him. And Mike escorted me gently out of the room.
00:10:23
Speaker
said, Ricky, I think I might take over the negotiation from here. So, you know, there were those there were those there were those excellent moments when when partnership comes in handy. I remember another one actually when I think Mike and you and me, Mike had just had a first kid and
00:10:39
Speaker
We were so tired of not slept for about five nights. We basically said, you know, hey, Nick, I think you're going to need to take over this board meeting from here and both put our heads on the table and pretty much went to sleep in the board meeting. So, you know, there's a lot of times when business partners... No, no, that was actually you and Nick. I didn't have a kid. You took on the journey, sorry. Because I was off in Spain running all these companies that you bought while you were leading... You had children, so you couldn't actually do the weekly commute to Madrid.
00:11:09
Speaker
So these guys freakin' phoned me up on my honeymoon. I didn't give anyone the details of the hotel. Phoned me up at three o'clock in the morning, phoned myself on my bed, and I think out in, where was it? It was in Patagonia somewhere, and said, look, Mike, we've got this fantastic company, we're gonna buy it, but the problem is both Nick and I are gonna have a baby soon. Obviously taking ownership of that baby one. So we're not gonna be able to go and run it. Will you go out and, will you live in Spain for a bit?
00:11:39
Speaker
and go and run this company. To which I said maybe, which was taken to be a yes, company got acquired and I flew back from Latin America and then Monday following Monday was out in Madrid trying to turn this thing around that they bought. So yeah, no, with tag teaming, I guess we'd put it. That's interesting stories about that.
00:12:01
Speaker
But yeah, no, no. If I take one thing from all that stuff, it's actually about doing business with people, with having a business partner. And that's very important. I'm sure we'll come back to this at the end of the podcast. But it's basically business appears to be, from my experience, 20 smacks in the face and one little tickle. And it's having somebody to go through those, getting smacked in the face with every day for years and years and years. It's important to have somebody along for the ride.
00:12:32
Speaker
and occasionally enjoy the tickle, you know. Oh yeah, no, no. We lost, we lost, we can, for example. Yeah, thanks. We're not going to talk about those tickles. So, what happened after Small World? You clearly didn't get tired enough, right? Well, we did take a little bit of time.
00:12:49
Speaker
But not very much. Someone was in Bali, right? And I was taking tips from you about Bali. It wasn't an altogether popular manoeuvre because Mike was not in Bali. That's right. I called him, I think it was at the five-year reunion and I said, Mike, I'm thinking about going to Bali for 18 months. And he was in so good shape. It was the 10-year reunion. I'm happy to see everyone.
00:13:14
Speaker
turned out with a ridiculous, turned out with a ridiculous beard. And so they've been in Bali for six months. I'm thinking about doing another year. Are you okay to hold the fork? And I think I probably had a couple of beers at this point. And I was like, oh, that's a yes. Brilliant. But anyway, yeah. Yeah, great. So what happened? What happened after Small World? Well, Ricky and I both partially exited and we sort of did a full exit a few years later.
00:13:43
Speaker
We set up another business called Asimo, and that was basically our sort of trying to surf the technology and the app wave.
Founding and Selling Asimo
00:13:53
Speaker
iPhone had recently come out, and so in 2012, we set up a business that was allowing people to send money, rather than from sort of stores and call centers, ala Western Union, much more on your mobile phone, ala, another great INSEAD founder business like Wyze, or
00:14:06
Speaker
a remit me or a world remit so yeah again still still in financial services still regulated i'm still involving consumers and money so i could guess a consumer fintech called asmo i ran that business for eight years and then i hired a guy from paypal as the ceo and moved to executive chairman
00:14:28
Speaker
Lots of stories relating to that. I don't think Ricky and I were very good at building software when we first started that business. I think we're marginally better at building it now, but tech is building good software is hard and the iteration and the way of building good software, I think we learned along the way, actually just sold that business last year to a large Israeli tech company called Papaya Global.
00:14:51
Speaker
Which was a phenomenal outcome, actually. It was a great deal. Everyone was very happy. My investors, my team, and me, actually.
00:15:06
Speaker
No, but, and it's an interesting one actually, and coming back, I'll fill in the bits I was up to at the same time as well, but with Mike, but it was interesting because it was definitely, you know, that exit process while it was a fantastic end story, obviously any deal is super hard. And so, you know, it's those moments when it's really important to be there for your business partner and sort of work through what's a pretty emotional journey,
00:15:34
Speaker
selling something you built up over a long period of time. And similarly, when I left, so the bit I missed out is obviously Mike and I were sitting down when I go back from Bali, or actually when I was going back and forth to Bali. And again, sifting through a list of what we were going to do next, which we'd done Priyasmo as well. And we had some crazy ideas on the list. But
00:15:57
Speaker
But possibly one of the stupidest was starting a bank. The logic being we've been working our way through financial services. There's been a lot of disruption and payments. We've done that for a few years. We looked at some peer-to-peer lending businesses, made some angel investments, but really retail banking hadn't been disrupted at all.
00:16:20
Speaker
We were like, how do we take advantage of what we think is going to be a wave of disruption that hits this part of the fintech ecosystem next? And as usual, our timing was impeccable. Actually, I think it was Mike and I were basically around September, and I won't even remember the year at this point, but
00:16:47
Speaker
would have been circa 2010. And when we sat down, we were like, actually, screw this. Let's start a bank. And then we obviously had to figure out how to go about that. So we went and hooked up with a guy, Matt Cooper, who was one of the founders of Capital One and had set up a Capital One bank in Europe and in the UK. And so started the licensing process for the bank, which was not altogether a simple matter.
00:17:16
Speaker
And actually, in fact, at the end, in the last probably eight months in Bali, I was working on the application process for the bank. Maybe not working quite as hard as I might be if I was back in the UK, but trying my best. And Mike was coming along to meetings with me, along with Matt, as we tried to navigate the bank application process. So that turned into a marginally interesting story.
00:17:45
Speaker
with plenty more learning. I'm sure when we started our first business together, we were like, this is the learning one, and we're just going to smash it all the way through the rest of them. Unfortunately, it hasn't quite turned out that way. It continues to be a learning experience.
VC and Angel Investing
00:17:59
Speaker
Turns out there's new shit to learn every time.
00:18:01
Speaker
Yeah, and that brings us back up to date. A couple of other things. So, these days, Ricky's got a couple of businesses on the go, and I'm obviously a shareholder in those, and we were on the board together. I'm doing a bit of VC investing for a couple of funds, a couple of funds, actually, back to Andamanazamo. And then we do lots of angel investing. And actually, that's one of the most rewarding things, I think, for me personally, is
00:18:22
Speaker
you know, working with younger founders in an area that we maybe know a little bit about and can be helpful in. So yeah, that's currently, and if you ask me where I thought I'd be 20 years after INSEAD, I think I've definitely, largely because of Sophie, my wife, who I met in SEAD, and Ricky, my business partner, who I also met in SEAD. Yeah, I mean, for 10 times better space than I could see, so yeah, I'm pretty happy.
00:18:49
Speaker
And how many dogs, kids, cats, any of this, or you want to share? Yeah, I've got two daughters who are amazing, but they're entering teenage, which has its own challenges. One, well, one 12-year-old and one 15-year-old. One that was a redhead, now is a bleach blonde and black head with a lot of nose piercings.
00:19:13
Speaker
And I've also got a little dog, who's actually a matchy matchy dog with me, has a ginger and gray beard now. Now he's grown up a bit. He's a cabapoo called Jumble. And still with Susie, and still, I mean, a lot of interns will visit me in London, and I'm still in Primrose Hill. So yeah, kind of pretty
00:19:39
Speaker
pretty settled. That's all worked out well on the family front as well. So yeah, that's what's going on. And you, Nick? And you? Mikey boy? Me? Yeah. Yeah. So I've got two kids, Martha, who's 13, Stanley, who's 10. Both good kids. Stanley's cricket mat. Martha loves dancing, but she's also just getting into those fun teenage years where she's starting to get interested in all the joys of life.
00:20:07
Speaker
So yeah, that's where we are. I haven't got dog yet. I'm sure it's in there in the tubes. All right. So tell me, when did you know that you want to have a business partner, each of you, and then what have been advantages and disadvantages of doing it together with a partner as opposed to going it alone?
00:20:32
Speaker
I do remember INSEAD teaching me that if you want to go into business, it's better to do it with a partner. Actually, I thought it was REP that taught me that, but it was something I saw played out a number of times. The one thing I've learned over the years, well, I'll take a few things, but it's definitely the journey is the destination. By that,
Entrepreneurial Challenges and Lessons
00:20:55
Speaker
I mean, you can spend 10, in this case, 20 years building businesses
00:20:59
Speaker
hopefully another 10 or 20 years ahead of us building businesses. It's not actually when you hit the liquidity moment and the, you know, either the company's no longer yours and the money lands in the bank account or, you know, you sign the docs, whatever it happens to be, that sort of that moment is very fleeting. And actually what sticks with you is the, you know, the good times and the bad times that you've had over the years and years and years you work together. And I think doing that on your own would be very lonely.
00:21:27
Speaker
somebody to share the highs and the lows with, I think is super important. I also think it's kind of like if you are a single founder, and I've backed a few of them and I've talked to others, you've either got to be just made up differently because they're somewhere on the spectrum. Yeah, I wasn't going to say that. But yeah, you're somewhere on that spectrum, not maybe the psychopathy spectrum. I think you call it sociopathism, don't you? It's more practical.
00:21:54
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's very hard. And also, you can't counteract the erosion of the stress on your relationship, having someone separate that's not your team, that's not your shareholders, that's not your life partner.
00:22:10
Speaker
to take a lot of this stuff. And generally it's quite stressful, big decisions to be made. It's quite lonely at the top of these organizations. So having a business partner has been great. I never really counted on this, not having one. And actually it's one of the things when I talk to other entrepreneurs or people are pitching to me about raising capital or wanting to build businesses, I'm always interested to know what is the dynamic in terms of the founder and business partner dynamic. Because I think it's a really important one.
00:22:36
Speaker
So yeah, I never really thought about doing it. In fact, I probably wouldn't have done it on my own. I don't know whether it was Nick or Ricky that really sort of kicked me into it. But yeah, I don't think it was that. Doing it on my own is never really an option. Yeah. And I went into business with my brother and that was tricky in that thought before Mike. But now I think
00:23:00
Speaker
Uh, yeah, the partnership aspect is, is super important. And I'd sort of echo what Mike said, but say it's like differently as well, which is, you know, one of the things, and one of the things I frankly, I liked about Michael, and the reason I wanted to go into business with him was, you know, he had a healthy set of values, particularly in terms of fact, like,
00:23:18
Speaker
that winning wasn't measured just by the money or the fame or the other stuff, but actually by having a great set of friends, enjoying good times with them, and having really quality relationships in your life. Mike's got a super broad group of super cool friends who would now sort of consider my friend, apart from when they call me a random business partner.
00:23:43
Speaker
you know, realizing that, you know, along the way, at every step of the way, making sure you don't sacrifice those friendships, relationships, making sure you stop to enjoy the time with your team, to enjoy the time, you know, just the time, you know, with time with your business partner, celebrate things, you know, little things, because the, as Mike says, like those huge celebratory moments are almost like super weird, kind of,
00:24:09
Speaker
double-edged swords always. There's never just straight hands in the air, oh my God, I've sold it. Because if you build this thing for like 10 years, if you sell it absolute, you get a huge chunk of money. But equally, there's departure and separation from teams and other things. So there's lots going on there.
00:24:28
Speaker
and so it's making sure that you just keep your head above water and realize that winning is not the business, it's not the money, it's not the fame, it's winning is coming out of all that with some awesome friendships and having enjoyed the ride. That's a bit like in a marriage mode.
00:24:49
Speaker
Fight. I mean, we definitely had arguments. We'd definitely been pissed off with one another for a long period of time. If we ever have really had a proper fight, I kind of feel like I did have fights with my brother, like actual physical fights with my brother. So yeah, I can confirm I have fought with the business partner, but I think they're primarily started his end. But yeah, have we ever fought, Mike?
00:25:09
Speaker
there's a bit there's a bit at the end when i think you ask you ask about any regrets but um i i was pretty pretty sort of angry passionate in my earlier entrepreneurial activities and i think yeah i definitely remember times that we had quite strong disagreements and exchanges frank exchanges of views but generally yeah no you haven't
00:25:31
Speaker
And these days, yeah, it's we kind of know how each other operates. So, yeah, it's all quiet on the Western front. Yeah, I don't think we never swung fists. I mean, I think there were definitely some shouting notes, but we both shout a bit anyway. So it's kind of like it was fine. All right. So top lessons learned from all the ventures, the successes and the failures on the way. What would be your top three each of you?
00:26:01
Speaker
You've got a really wide-eyed look there, mate. Top three in the next another. No, no, I have a bunch.
00:26:08
Speaker
Ricky is super, really one of the best people I know about identifying, you know, very talented individuals, putting them into roles that are probably bigger than they or anyone else would think that they can fill. I'm thinking specifically of sort of early employees at tandem and early employees, we probably shouldn't name them, it's a bit unfair, but early employees at both ASMO and tandem who really changed the game.
00:26:34
Speaker
And that's really nice because you have somebody who's actually got incredibly hungry to run stuff.
00:26:42
Speaker
and does a phenomenal job. And they actually also end up transforming their life because they go into a role that gives them a stepping stone into all sorts of good stuff. So I think obviously it's hard not to be cliched when you're talking about the sort of big learnings, but Ricky's ability to sort of identify talent and then sort of put it into bigger roles than it or you think that they can probably deal with is something I've always been in. And it's basically made a couple of our businesses much more successful than they would have been.
00:27:12
Speaker
Be careful of leverage i think i probably learned balance sheet the hard way. Financial crisis two thousand nine every very lucky that we are still here to tell the tell me will you manage to keep the company through those very tumultuous years that was proper stress i remember being worried that we might be on the front page of the fc for the first time for all the wrong reasons.
00:27:34
Speaker
having taken a regulated financial services business past because of the leverage that we put in. We use leverage wisely, or wisely, not widely, I think would be another one. I'll give one more to Ricky. Sure. I think there's a couple. One of the other things that Mike and I have been pretty aligned on is building purpose-driven businesses.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yes. Depending on who you are, and this extends much more to team members and employees and even late employees in a larger venture, I don't think anybody, I mean, some people just work for money, that's a limited category.
00:28:23
Speaker
But most people work and work much more effectively for some type of cause that they can get excited about. And certainly that's the case for me, certainly that's the case for Mike. So I would say sort of my lesson number one, if you like, is making sure first of all that you build a business
00:28:45
Speaker
that where you feel passionate about the purpose and you believe in the reason for this business existing to help the world rather than.
00:28:55
Speaker
And look, if you are a sociopath, sorry, and your only thing is money, that's fine, you know, do that. You're gonna attract a certain type of employee. There are some very successful businesses out there that I can point to where you will get people who only want money to join you and work incredibly hard and do some great things. But that wasn't our vibe. And therefore, you know, but making sure then, and this is almost kind of lesson two is like, you know, say it, say it, say it again.
00:29:24
Speaker
When you're running an organization, even a small organization, it's amazing because your thoughts are in your head all day long. You think everybody's understood what you said. You think everyone identifies with the purpose.
00:29:40
Speaker
Mike and I may be discussing the purpose on a regular basis. You think it's been discussed and mentioned, but you can't mention it too often. If you mention it 10 times a day, that's probably still not enough. Every time where you stand up and talk about it at tandem, I'd always start with, why are we here? What are we trying to build? What are we trying to do for the world?
00:30:00
Speaker
And it feels super cheesy when you're saying it, but just actually re-emphasizing. And it might be a message other than purpose as well, maybe your quarterly goals or whatever it is, but just over-communicate massively because it's interesting coming back, like talking to people from tandem, 20 years later, we had this thing which we're building a good bank. And people come back to me up in the pub and go, oh my God, I fucking love tandem, it was amazing.
00:30:27
Speaker
It was so good building a good bank. And they use this phrase like, you know, well, 10, 15 years later to sort of describe their experience of working there. And these things are incredibly important to people. So that's sort of say it again. I suppose the last one, and this is going to be, again, one that, and by the way, say it again, was as much, you know, I think probably Mike's discovery before mine as well, just couldn't communicate enough.
00:30:57
Speaker
And a lot of what I've used is dilution. And this was actually more my lesson than Mike's. And Mike's been pretty disciplined about not diluting himself too much. But obviously, when we started a bank, there's a question and a challenge was raised by some investors, which is, oh, shit, you're going to need an awful lot of money to do that. And indeed, we did need about 250 million pounds building a bank. As it turns out, pretty much everyone spent 250 million pounds building a bank. And apart from maybe a friend, Nikolai, who built Revolut,
00:31:27
Speaker
who managed to continuously get away with some pretty monstrous valuations, pretty much everybody diluted pretty heavily along the way.
00:31:43
Speaker
that either you start a less capital intensive business or you have the chutzpah to go out there and raise at successively higher valuations and clear vision for how you're going to achieve something that looks absolutely astonishing at each point of the way. Otherwise, dilution can definitely come back and bite you in the ass, slash reduce your and your investor's returns.
00:32:10
Speaker
And you mentioned a few times building businesses. So two questions there. At which point did you know you will go and have your own businesses so you will be entrepreneurs? Was it always there or it sounds like Mike maybe was dragged into it a bit?
00:32:28
Speaker
I don't think
Early Ventures and Reality of Entrepreneurship
00:32:29
Speaker
that's true. One thing Nick, Mike and I all had in common was we all promoted club nights at university, which is very much an entrepreneurial venture. Mike was probably better at DJing than either Nick or I. I actually had a clothing company at university as well, which was clubbing clothing, incidentally, called Sin Clothing. The night was called Sin as well, no reason for that.
00:32:55
Speaker
Certainly, and I weirdly, while my American, my dad's side of the family were largely entrepreneurs, so it was something I was excited about really early on. Although you kind of forget if you translate yourself back through time, it was very unsexy. I mean, the 80s had a brief sort of Richard Branson flirtation where it was cool to be an entrepreneur.
00:33:16
Speaker
Mostly it wasn't. It was like, you know, sort of selling shit out the back of a van, of a wheelbarrow. There's this sort of buy-sell that, you know, when you thought of an entrepreneur, it's certainly in the early 90s, like, you know, you were thinking about a, you know, a market trader, you know, and not a glamorous tech guy.
00:33:34
Speaker
And while in the very late 90s, obviously then, 98, 99, you sort of had these tech entrepreneurs appearing really for the first time and looking a little more glamorous to be Larry Page or Sergey Brin or one of these guys. But this was, that was really a late 90s phenomenon. So yeah, I think it was swimming against the tide a bit. What about you, Mike? I mean, obviously you were promoting club nights at an early age.
00:34:02
Speaker
I just never really did it in, in, in traditional jobs. I didn't get on with them. I didn't, they sort of felt a bit either a fat, I wasn't very good at them or I felt very shackled in, you know, in working for someone else. So I don't, I think, I think you just being unable to do a proper job, as you might say, kind of led me to the path of doing, you know, becoming an entrepreneur.
00:34:31
Speaker
It's called an improper job. It's not it's an improper job. It's not, you know, it's, um, it's, yeah. 24-7 job. Yeah, exactly. It's an indecent job. Indecent job. Not with too much work.
00:34:47
Speaker
But I spent quite a lot of time going into various business skills around the UK, far inferior to our one, obviously, and talking to people. Just give it a go, guys. I know this is going to be listening to a bunch of old people, our peers.
00:35:06
Speaker
Sorry, young people, young and hard, young and hard people. Yeah, young and hard, yeah. In some of your audience, it's never a good way of carrying on, is it? But, you know, I just like, you know, I think the best thing that's happened in the last 20 years is it's become okay to be an entrepreneur. And I think that is phenomenal. When I left News Corp and decided to start in business, everyone thought I was absolutely mad. To some people said it politely, quite a lot of people said it very impolitely.
00:35:35
Speaker
But these days, the idea of starting your own business, becoming an entrepreneur, doing a startup is kind of socially accepted. In fact, I think that's probably going to, the pendulum will swing back a little bit now that we've got a big economic downturn, but it's kind of like in this acceptable career path. And I think that's phenomenal because we're not going to be, the consultants and the bankers can't get us out of this sort of economic hold that we're in.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah, get your kids to give it a go. At least, you know, you can always do something else if it doesn't work and you'll probably be more employable and more effective for the rest of your life if you've done it. I'm a big, big sort of cheerleader for entrepreneurism as a profession, as a career choice. Super. So your take on leadership, what makes a good leader from your own experience and your observations around you, good and bad?
00:36:25
Speaker
Do you want me to kick off on that or you? Yeah, go on. Go on, Ricky. Yeah. So look, I mean, elite leadership, and it's funny because it's sort of, because it's one word, you think it's one thing, it's really not one thing. And, and there's, you know, so, so I'm going to, I'll start from sort of purpose and inspiration, which is, I think an important aspect, but absolutely not enough is, is to be able to inspire people.
00:36:50
Speaker
and excite them about what they're gonna do every day even if sometimes the content job content itself may be a bit boring so inspiring focus where i start but then i think i would you know and this is something much stronger than me on.
00:37:09
Speaker
organizing and marshalling human resources to achieve a goal. So executing is a really important part of leadership as well. And it doesn't sound as sexy, but it's probably more important.
00:37:23
Speaker
than inspiring people. If you inspire people and then allocate the wrong resources, the wrong role, to the wrong job, the wrong time, then I suppose a third piece, which again, sort of sexy sounding, but a sort of strategy and actually be able to, you can help with advisors, but unless you can tell between a good advisor and a bad advisor, you're in trouble. So figuring out, again, at a high level, the themes of how you're then going to organize and marshal those resources.
00:37:52
Speaker
is super, super important. And then I suppose the last piece that I'd throw in there, which sort of related the first but is culture and thinking about and being conscious about that culture and the way you're communicating within an organization is absolutely critical because it sustains the organization in times when you're not there to do the leading, but it creates
00:38:22
Speaker
a sort of culture of leadership that then can be communicated down to the different ranks. When you grow a business and you've got multiple layers of leaders within the organization, that culture allows them to sort of perform within that context. Anything from Mike?
00:38:37
Speaker
No, I mean, yeah, he's thought about this much harder than I have. Not much to add, except for just identifying talent. It's certainly in my experience, if you have great leaders that sit underneath you, they can make you look good. No, that's actually really good point. And when you get to guys like Jack Welsh, that's exactly what they were good at. Yeah, it's a very good point.
00:39:05
Speaker
I'm not shy, I aspire to be like Jack Welsh, but, you know, recognizing talent and promoting it and encouraging it and nurturing it and, you know, giving it enough space to make mistakes, but learn from them and, you know, and do things, get people to do things their own way, I think is super important. But I'd agree with all of that. And I wouldn't say, actually, I'm a great leader, I'm probably a better early stage company leader, I'm a late stage company leader, but I've definitely learned a lot along the way.
00:39:34
Speaker
And if we stereotype the roles in a business, who is who, the two of you? How do you divide or it depends on which business we're talking about. I'm like the PR agent. I just sort of sit on the outside and talk shit. No, I'm, I know. Yeah. Well, I don't know. How would you, how would you, how would you split it up? Mike. Well, so in our first business, there were sort of three of us. I guess Ricky sort of raised the money and he's very good at that.
00:40:02
Speaker
sell ice to the Eskimos was always the expression that we used. And you can imagine, you know, fast-talking New Yorker with big ideas and a world-conquering plan and things to execute on it. It went down very well. And we were nothing if we didn't raise capital. So he was very good at that. I've kind of become a little bit better at raising capital over the years. Obviously, as a CEO of Asmar, I've had to do that multiple rounds.
00:40:28
Speaker
I think we're both reasonably good at that stuff. I probably started off a little bit more operational than Ricky. I used to have a long set of bullet points that I come to every meeting and I'd try to come out with. So I was probably more of the operational manager early on in our careers. I think both of us have grown towards each other in that direction. Ricky was maybe not the most organized manager in the early days.
00:40:56
Speaker
Just trying to be diplomatic here. Who didn't read Milena's beautifully organized briefing document until we got on this call. But no, I think, yeah, less complimentary skills than you might think, actually. I think we've got quite similar skills. I think
00:41:20
Speaker
where Ricky hired some really good people in the early days. And I've really learned from that. I wasn't as good at hiring talent as Ricky is. And he's just got a way of talking to people and getting behind under the skin of people working out what makes them tick. And all of the best hires I think that I've made have had sort of
00:41:43
Speaker
you know, Ricky in there at some point. So yeah. And an interesting one for me actually, which I, I mean, I mentioned culture before, but actually something that I hadn't done and didn't know anything about before we started was branding and not the mic and add a massive branding background, but he actually considered it super important. And I remember when we were in a small world, really, really pushed the agenda on, you know, building a modern brand, understanding it, defining it, and did a great job as well as a mo and even, you know, sat in the tandem process as well.
00:42:13
Speaker
to figure out how we how we did that, which is sort of it's like the an interesting one, because I think 20 years ago was a separate process to culture, because you could you could sort of project the bullshit brand and not project your internal culture. I think that's got a lot harder, you know, the internet and everything from Glassdoor that you know, you can really look inside a company quite easily. And it's quite easy to see in Congress. And I think
00:42:39
Speaker
Particularly in B2C businesses, customers really get pretty upset if there's a total incongruence between the internal culture and the external brand of business. So those two have come closer together, but Mike certainly taught me a lot about the value of branding and how to think about the process and how then that relates to the internal cultural aspects.
00:43:01
Speaker
Great. So, to wrap it up here, what would you tell future entrepreneurs? One point. Future INSEAD entrepreneurs or just future entrepreneurs in general? Well, let's keep it in the family. Let's say future INSEAD entrepreneurs. Do you want to kick off Mike or me? Sure. So, I think the interesting thing is get started early.
00:43:25
Speaker
So the opportunity cost as you get older goes up of going out and not having a salary and not being able to earn the big bucks that you coughed in or on offer if you sort of go the corporate route. So I actually wish I'd started earlier than I did.
00:43:44
Speaker
I think consulting is interesting for maybe a year or two, but after that, I think you should really kick out on your own, because you don't really start learning until you do it. So yeah, I think my number one thing would be, start early. My number two thing, and we've alluded to it all the way through this podcast, is find yourself a business partner. Probably not your best friend, but definitely not your worst enemy. Probably some kind of complementary skills is useful, and make sure you've got somebody to share the journey with. That's what I'd tell them.
00:44:14
Speaker
So yeah, and from my from my end, and Mike's already echoed this, but you know, kind of just get on with it.
Advice for Future Entrepreneurs
00:44:22
Speaker
I mean, one of the things I've heard endlessly from various people is, oh, I don't have an idea, or, you know, or I don't have the capital, or I don't have a business partner, like, you know, all of these things kind of come together in different ways. And even the two
00:44:41
Speaker
businesses that I've set up with Mike recently, you know, if I'm honest, like the idea, and we staffed around a little bit on one of them, kind of trying to hire an external kind of CEO, and actually what we need to do is just get the fuck on with it. And, and, and, and, you know, the idea, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's morphed and it reshapes. And when you go out to raise capital, which actually interesting reflection,
00:45:08
Speaker
because we're doing this at the moment. You discover that the market doesn't want this and that, and it wants that and the other. Until you've built a lot of infrastructure, a lot of code or a lot of people,
00:45:23
Speaker
then there's a lot that can be fairly fluid. So when you get going, you learn a lot more about the opportunity. So just start. Just sit down and start whether it's planning or quitting your day job or all the rest of it. Just get that along with it.
00:45:42
Speaker
And I would say it's got a hell of a lot easier. And so, starting a business today is all the admin stuff. Ironically, I was on the phone with Seedlegals before you guys came, but this stuff was expensive, tens of thousands of pounds.
00:46:06
Speaker
and you know and it took a long time and i do you know so company you can you can do your investment round the cost a couple grand you know you you you can you can pretty much everything out i'm not recommending see legal particular platform to do this but you know.
00:46:22
Speaker
But the admins got a lot easier, building codes easier, even getting some grunt assistance from chat GPT has got a lot easier. A million different aspects of the journey have just simplified themselves. I mean, even actually on the branding exercise we're just doing, we use mid-journey and other stuff. It's so much quicker to generate imagery ideas, et cetera, et cetera, than it was 20 years ago.
00:46:52
Speaker
So again, come back to, I suppose, get on with it. And coming back to, I suppose, Mike's third
00:47:02
Speaker
piece, and I think it's finding a business part, but it's also finding those early team members. It's one of my interesting things, and I would do a side lesson from tandem, and it doesn't always work for startups. But if you've got some recruiter friends or exec search friends, getting them to
00:47:23
Speaker
It is occasionally I've thought in the past in my career that these people weren't adding as much value as it might. Actually, if you're starting a business and somebody's willing to make some intros for you, it's almost the most important thing. They can make 20 intros.
00:47:40
Speaker
ideally for free, to people who might join you on your journey. Like that person can, even if it's just learning from those people, you know, just asking. We had a very friendly recruiter, Paul Stegel, who was at Carbon Search at Tandem. And honestly, we couldn't have started a bank. Like I had no idea how to run a bank.
00:48:01
Speaker
how to manage bank, how to apply for a banking license, and he was able to introduce me to all the people in banking, having never worked in bank, I didn't have any idea, who were able to actually help me on that journey and make this for a few steps. So yeah. Give your money to this man. Exactly. Who has no idea? Always. Excellent. Maybe we can end with that. We have no idea.
00:48:25
Speaker
We're paying a very good savings rate. Tandem is currently paying a top of the market savings rate. So please do deposit your money. Exactly. Or join for more, which is our new Wealth Club, or indeed helps save the world.
00:48:43
Speaker
I'm loving it. All right. So listen, so tell me, tell me, well, you've, you've pretty much said, but are there more INSEAD connections than the most obvious ones being you and your business partner and you and your life partner, Mike? Any other INSEADs? Well, and of course Nick in the, uh, in, in the first winter, et cetera, et cetera.
00:49:07
Speaker
Uh, so I, um, uh, well, actually we raised money. Um, some of the angels are in our very earliest rounds. Asimo were, were, were raised to the, uh, Asimo. Angel club, you know, and we made those guys the 10 to 50 X return. I think it's 50 X actually, if they came in the first round. So yeah, we're sort of, that was a, that was a good inside connection.
00:49:32
Speaker
didn't get very much money from them, but it was useful. My superstar COO in the business, often compared to Atlas holding the world up of the business, really did every role across the eight years she was with the business.
00:49:50
Speaker
you know phenomenal lady um and you know and our friends um so that was you know i've had a bunch of insead talent through the business and it's it's it almost invariably you know top tier there's something about that sort of pragmatic get it done um but also super smart which you just don't seem to doesn't seem to come out in the same way from other business schools i'm obviously biased
00:50:13
Speaker
I have, I guess, just shamelessly milked the INSEAD network. As a moment, we formed relationships with banks all over the world. I think we had 70, 80 different banks on our network in lots of far-flung and exotic places. We're in the Philippines and Nigeria and Colombia. I shamelessly milked the INSEAD network.
Power of the INSEAD Network
00:50:35
Speaker
Every time I flew to one of those destinations, there was somebody to have a drink with, give me the lie of the land.
00:50:40
Speaker
Have a have a have a few jokes about welcome week get drunk and just have a good time. So I think that's kind of like that's and then obviously an international network of party people so It's rarely anywhere that I go to in the world where I can't meet other people and have a great time So that I'm phenomenally grateful to it. So yeah, I guess build my business gave me my business partner gave me my wife and
00:51:07
Speaker
and gave me all the talent, a big chunk of the talent that has made me successful. I don't want to be, you know, I'm sort of British, particularly Scottish, and this still feels a bit distasteful to be this enthusiastic about something. But yeah, it's definitely been a great thing for me in Seattle, but that's for sure. The American may feel less embarrassed about being exuberant.
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah, but I didn't get me a wife. I'm feeling a bit cheated, but I didn't lose me and my wife, which did most other people. So maybe I should thank you for that. Thank you for all those people who held back at the right moment. No, I'm kidding. And so, yeah, I mean, I'd add kind of a lot of friends and I know
00:51:53
Speaker
Sophie celebrated with a whole load of her posse and Ibiza reasonably recently. Actually, on Wednesday night, just two nights ago, had Rahima, Nanik and Rajiv who had not seen for a very long time,
00:52:08
Speaker
come along to one of our four more launch events, which was super fun. Interestingly, I actually had about four other Inti editors there that were from other promos and things at the event. But yeah, it's been extremely useful. And as you get older, these people get more and more successful and go on to do cooler and cooler things. So it's often quite fun just catching up and finding out what they're up to.
00:52:38
Speaker
In fact, I had an entertaining Glastonbury connection with Peter Reed, who's one of my favorite partiers, but was at INSEAD about 10 years above us and was one of the UK's most successful entrepreneur, well, sort of angels, and had an inspiring time with him. So, you know, it can even be useful in finding your random party partners.
00:53:03
Speaker
There you go. All right. And how do you think therefore about giving in general and then giving back to inside in all the forms? I'm not talking just money, but what's your philosophy on or how do you think about it? Do you want to start my guineas? Well, I'm Scottish, so I don't like giving any money away.
00:53:26
Speaker
But it pains me. Both Ricky and I are supporters of something called Founder's Pledge, which anyone who's not aware of it, I suggest that you Google it. I guess it's a scheme whereby you pledge a percentage of your net worth in the future on the basis of any exits that you have. As a founder, I think you can also do it as a VC or
00:53:51
Speaker
There's different lines of work but we both participated in that and we've sort of both written reasonably chunky checks towards founders pledge because I do think that's an important part of giving. We're both in Seattle donors and I'm pretty sure we're going to be tapped up by Milena.
00:54:07
Speaker
either during this call or after this call to become larger and see our donors. I think it's a special place and I think it's important that it's a place we support. I've always had a little bit of a problem with the administration not being as efficient as it could be, and certainly when I was there, they weren't necessarily the...
00:54:26
Speaker
the best run business school in the world, but I think things are improving a lot. So yeah, I'm quite happy to donate in Seattle. And then I kind of like giving a lot of my time and quite a lot of my capital to, you know, early stage businesses. And I see that as a sort of a way of giving back. Obviously, I'm looking for an economic return and a thousand extra.
00:54:44
Speaker
on my investment, but I quite enjoy doing that as well. So yeah, we're pretty, and I think that kind of stuff becomes more and more important. I think the other thing that people can do and get sort of negated a little bit is I get a lot of inbound emails from in Seattle, there's people who are either currently there or have just graduated or are looking to change careers. And I try and give, and I think we've probably, everyone on this podcast, listens to this podcast gets the same thing. I try and give people that time.
00:55:13
Speaker
because I know time is our most valuable resource these days, but try and sort of to have some stories and some words of encouragement. I called a
Giving Back to Community and INSEAD
00:55:22
Speaker
couple of people post INSEAD out of the blue and they were both very generous with their time. Ricky and I both sort of tapped up the INSEAD network for money and advice over the years and people have been very generous with it. So yeah, I think that's the important bit. Yeah, obviously it's about the dollars, but it's about the time and sort of
00:55:40
Speaker
helping the next generation coming through to navigate and maybe they allow them to make a different set of mistakes to the ones that we made.
00:55:51
Speaker
interesting on the sort of Founders' Pledge front. They've got to focus on efficient altruism, which is something I'm quite interested in, which is like sort of amplifying your impact and your giving. You know, interestingly, I think like the NCN Scholarship Fund that you set up is actually an interesting way of doing that because you're bringing somebody in who might have an outsized impact as an individual. And I think individuals are probably in a way that one way that you can amplify your impact. The
00:56:19
Speaker
you know, part of the reason why Mike and I built the other business working on ran out of carbon electricity is because we want to have an impact on climate change on the planet. And we've amassed some pretty respectable business building skills. And so, you know, this is a business where that I feel is sort of striking at the heart of one of the
00:56:43
Speaker
potentially most high leverage areas of reducing carbon emissions, which is a little less speculative, which is basically the rollout of wind and solar and particularly in the developing world. So we're helping wind and solar projects get funded, access subsidies.
00:57:00
Speaker
in the developing world. These are super efficient, totally mature technologies that just need to be rolled out faster. We need to transition away from oil, coal, et cetera, more quickly. And right now, we can sit here and feel great in the UK because we're probably over 50% renewables, but actually we're not where the problem is. So trying to drive that into the rest of the world more quickly than it's happening today, I think is where we can have quite an outsized impact.
00:57:30
Speaker
in terms of the impact side, I suppose, giving rather than just the monetary side.
00:57:39
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Thank you for that. And keep giving, keep giving. I will give every year. Now we come to the end of this. So it's the quick round of questions. You have them in advance. Ricky has not read them. So let's see how I start. And then you go. So first question, proudest achievement.
00:58:06
Speaker
This is going to be a quick fire, isn't it? So I'd say family, wife, friends, and after that, Asamo. Yeah. I mean, daughters, having not fallen out with my business partner over 20 years. And yeah, I don't know, having built a bank, maybe. Success for you is?
00:58:27
Speaker
This is interesting. So it's changed over the years. I mean, it used to be money. It's not money anymore. It's the ability to see people that you've worked with going on to flourish and get good jobs and sort of achieve things that you think they probably, or maybe actually they think they might not be able to achieve had they not worked with you or an organization set up by you. So other people's success is the secret of success.
00:58:52
Speaker
It'll be slightly cheesier and I'm going to say love. Now, what I mean by love is having loving relationships with your main people in your life, your family, et cetera, but also with your friends. Happiness is... I would say love there, actually. Well done, Ricky.
00:59:10
Speaker
As soon as I shot you, I got the question wrong. You're joking over me beforehand. Ricky comes out with the big guns. I think happiness, your health is your wealth. I think being healthy and having people around you be healthy is incredibly important. Yeah. And yeah, just happiness is big around people that you love and love you. Yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
I'm going to take it more contemporary and say, Dan's going to feel with Mike and some other very good friends to Fat Boy Slim as he drops his third awesome track on Saturday afternoon in the park. There you go. Biggest regret.
00:59:55
Speaker
I don't believe in regret. Everything happens for a reason. I don't know regret. I have to think about that one. There was that really bad night with the four farm animals. No, I know. I know. I'm going to stop there. What keeps you awake at night? Used to be business and now it's worrying about my kids.
01:00:15
Speaker
My dog really annoyingly wakes up in the night, barks up foxes sometimes, like really irritating. Now I used to have a very productive period at like 4 a.m. if I woke up early where I actually had my best business ideas, but yeah, I've been doing just waking up at 4 a.m. a little bit less. Oh yeah, yeah, my bladder. That's what keeps me awake, you know, right? Wish you had known or someone had told you
01:00:45
Speaker
I didn't actually get far down this list of your bullet points. I'm sorry. I'll go for this one. Whenever you're in a pickle, think about it in retrospect. I just remember the first time things were absolutely fucked and falling apart as an entrepreneur.
01:01:06
Speaker
You know, it did seem like the world was actually going to end, but my life didn't end. Mike's life didn't end. My, you know, friends and family were still there afterwards. And actually, when you look back at it, you were like, actually, that wasn't really that bad. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that table at the banker. But you know, other than that, it was no. But generally, like, and I had an interesting moment.
01:01:27
Speaker
with my sister, I wouldn't give the details, but with exactly that, like on Sunday, where I was able to sort of pull her out of her current perspective and just go, hey, hang on, this is gonna be totally fine. So yeah, it's gonna be totally fine. It's probably the advice. If you had to do it all over again, what would you change? Would it go on the LBS? Nothing, honestly, this is like regrets.
01:01:53
Speaker
You know, everything happens for a reason. I'm very happy with the way that things are. Maybe I would have started earlier as an entrepreneur. I was going to say that one, started a bit earlier. I did, I don't know, they were all a bit useful on the way through, but you know, yeah, could have started earlier. All right, retirement for you guys, ever, never.
01:02:19
Speaker
What's the time? Arguably, I'm already retired. The answer would be never, I want to keep doing things I love with people that I like.
01:02:33
Speaker
forever. That's the plan. And we actually talked about this last weekend, and it's more like, it's more like a wind down. Like, you
Reflections on Retirement
01:02:41
Speaker
know, it's kind of like, you might have done seven days a week, you know, 20 years ago, you know, I prefer to keep it under six at the moment, you know, and there will be a time when I want to do two days a week, you know, I just don't have the energy anymore. The energy hasn't left me yet, but it will, it will eventually. Right.
01:03:01
Speaker
If you had to pick one book, everyone should read. Oh, I know. The Philosophy of Money by Morgan Howthall. Phenomenal book. In fact, every one thing out of this podcast, read that book. It will change the way that you... It talks about money, happiness, the way that you feel about people you love and money. I wish I'd read it earlier, actually. It's a phenomenal book. I'm also reading about the Stoics at the moment.
01:03:29
Speaker
the Emperor Marcus Aurelius which is quite cool. So yeah that's worth a try if you've never done it before.
01:03:35
Speaker
Thank you, Ricky. My one is going to be actually one that I read at INCHAD. So it's more for current INCHADers than our guys, which is what colors your parachute, which actually we did. I think we studied even somewhat, which I just found super. I hadn't really thought about things from that perspective before. And it's not even specifically for business school people. I tried to rewrite it after INCHAD. Most admired public person.
01:04:02
Speaker
Mandela, I have some South African roots and I think he's an example for everything that political leadership in the face of adversity and bringing people together can be. Can I tell you are the second one who picks him out? But I'm not going to tell you who's the first one. You have to listen to the podcast. I love it. I love it. Yeah.
01:04:27
Speaker
No, I got asked this the other day and I really, really struggled to answer it. You sort of end up a bit like sort of Gandhi or something. And Mandela is a little along the Gandhi lines of kind of
01:04:45
Speaker
you know somebody who is genuinely wise yeah so yeah struggle slightly i would say but yeah let's go with that let's go again just for fun shall we try with your most despised public person oh plenty of those don trump it's a bit unoriginal hitler
01:05:06
Speaker
Boris Johnson. All the people who brought the leadership and the highest elected office in to distribute, I have very little time for. And controversially, I would say that I'm on the fence about Mark Zuckerberg.
01:05:28
Speaker
I think we really miss the beat in terms of regulation and controls around the internet, but in particular social media. The impact it has on young people, old people's mental health, and I think we're living in the world west at the moment. I think Facebook and their ilk are sitting on an awful lot of information that they know the harm that
01:05:49
Speaker
as well as the good that their technology can do. And I just don't really think they're doing enough about it. I think we're in a sort of potentially in a Philip Morris type situation. No offense to all my Philip Morris friends out there. Yeah, so I really worry about the sort of permacious nature and mental health impact of social media. And I wish that the leaders in those industries would do more to recognize it and change things.
01:06:15
Speaker
I'm with you there. All right, the last question, last last, are you coming to Reunion? Absafucking Lutely is the answer to that question. I'm definitely there. And in fact, I'm gonna break this to you now, Milena, because it's public forum, so you can't abuse me too much. But I was hoping to host a party on this Saturday, but now that I realize we're in the chateau, DJ to one, I think I may host a party on a Friday.
01:06:40
Speaker
So I apologize, as I know, people may be slightly rougher on Saturday, but I thought I'd best do it. I use this strategy with my wife sometimes. I wait till we've got guests over, and then I break the worst news. I'll have to speak to you about this often, OK? All right. No. Well, that's OK. With Mike. Mike, but you didn't tell me. Are you coming to me? Yeah, no, so I will also twist. I'll twist the English language to its limits and parrot Ricky's phrase, abso-fucking-lutely.
01:07:10
Speaker
There you go. Super. So I couldn't keep it a secret with you. These were Ricky Knox and Mike Kent. Mike and Ricky, you know, our partners in crime or not crime, well, financial services for 20 years. Crime, crime. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. It was entertaining, but you totally messed up my script and everything. So let's get out of here with us. It's all right. Thank you. And we'll see you latest informative probably before.
01:07:40
Speaker
Thank you so much. You were listening to the Republic of India 20 years later, or 3D podcast edition. It is my hope to remind everyone what an interesting and there I say colorful bunch of people we are and how much we can contribute to each other, be it through ideas, knowledge or mere inspiration. The podcast is inspired by the original Republic of India, the yearbook produced on paper 20 years ago by Oliver Bradley and team.
01:08:10
Speaker
Thank you Ollie and team for this contribution to our class's memory and for letting me continue in the tradition, title and inspiration included. Creator and author of the Republic of Incia 20 Years Later O3D podcast edition, Am I, Milena Ivanova. Original music by Peter Dondakoff with help from their films productions. Stay tuned for more and remember to book your tickets for the 20 year reunion in Fontainebleau October 6th, 8th, 2023. Thank you for listening.