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00:00:01
And finally… “You had your eat, pray, love moment.” “I totally did. I won't be shy about it. I was very, very lucky.”
285 Plays1 year ago
For me there were two options. I can be very rich and lonely 10 years down the line, or I had to change something so that I'm happy and I'm not lonely and I'm with someone that I enjoy being with.
20 YEARS IN PERSPECTIVE:
I changed absolutely everything. So I was in the recruitment industry in Poland before INSEAD, and then I ended up in investment banking in Austria. The only thing I didn't change was the market, because my entire life, the theme has been emerging markets.
I spent two and a half years in Vienna doing corporate finance, and then love called, and so in 2006 I moved to London. In 2008 I got a call from a head-hunter who was chasing me for a job in Kazakhstan and in April 2008 I moved to Almaty, Kazakhstan and then I moved to Russia in 2011. The end of 2012 I got downsized, it was the best thing that happened to me, because I needed to exit Moscow, I needed to exit finance.
At the time I was also going through a divorce, which was “amazing”, it was a major shock to the system, took me a number of years to get over it, not in terms of the relationship, but in terms of the failure, I treated it for the longest time as something I failed at.
So what I did is I bought a ticket around the world and took off for six months, the end of this was our reunion in Fonty in 2013.
Where I am today is I serve on boards, I have my own small business in aroma therapy, which is a direct to consumer model, I help with my family's business, which means these days I've [also] opened a hotel. And then I do a lot of pro bono work.
I got a guy who landed on my balcony in London, and so we have a seven year old son now, and I'm mostly spending time in Bulgaria.
On topic: a woman in finance, overcoming adversity and life in general
For a woman to decide that she doesn't like where she is and to move on is a fact of life. I did not like entering a boardroom with 22 men and two women on a regular basis. I did not like eating lunch in the MD lunchroom where I was the only woman and the guys had to talk with me out of politeness. But what they can talk to me about was Sponge Bob, they didn't know what to talk about.
The biggest challenge was solving my personal life because I was 36 and getting divorced. I thought I'm 36 and starting a family, and then one day I'm 36 and getting divorced. So I went through the fear of would I be alone, I went through the fear of would I have children…
There are three things in life that ruin you - one is divorce, one is losing your job, and I forget was the third one, and then you die. So I had two of those at the same time. So you are pushed. You are pushed, and this is when either you grow either or you go back to your old self, but going back to your old self, it's going to come back to bite.
After the rain comes the rainbow, in the darkest hour, I need someone to just remind me, that.
On all things INSEAD and giving back
Why I do it, I will revert to what a lot of people in these episodes have mentioned, the word impact. And it's having an impact and working for something that's bigger than oneself.
Without education, society goes down the drain. And sometimes people tell me, “Yes, but MBA is a luxury good.” And I'm like, “But you need leaders, as well.” And it's not leaders in the arrogant sense, but it's people who have the courage, people who are willing to be honest. So, if you want to change things, we need education at all levels.
I keep on saying thank goodness for my healthy sense of self-confidence because otherwise some of the things people have done are like, Jesus…
You've also seen them dance without their shirts on, so that's a great equalizer.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Republic of INSEAD Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
This is Republic of Insead, the 20 years later O3D podcast edition. I am Milena Ivanova and will be your host in this limited series. So, here we are, 20 years later, hopefully all the wiser, naturally smarter and as charming as ever. There were 432 of us in the O3D vintage.
00:00:25
Speaker
And certainly there are 432 unique and very interesting personal and professional stories to tell. While I cannot physically cover all, I have tried to make a selection of stories that will keep you interested and curious and will hopefully convince you to join us on campus for reunion. Welcome to the Republic of Insead Podcast Edition and enjoy the show.
Interview with Milena Ivanova: Career Path Reflections
00:00:50
Speaker
So today we turn the tables. I am not Milena Ivanova. My name is Rob Cheng, and I will be your host today with another special host, Daniela from E6 from Canada VIVE. We will be your host today. And we are turning the tables on our lovely class organizer and fundraiser and podcast
00:01:17
Speaker
creator extraordinaire, Milena Ivanova. So no surprises who our special guest is today, but I think you will all get a kick out of her yearbook entry. Daniela. Hi everyone.
00:01:33
Speaker
Milena, hello. I'm going to read Milena's yearbook entry. Here goes. Milena was easily one of the most hospitable people at INSEAD, perhaps helped by her ability to put together delicious Bulgarian menus. She was always happy to host a brunch or dinner or maybe a breakfast if you ask nicely.
00:01:56
Speaker
During class, Milena only occasionally deigned to look away from her laptop. Surely the professors didn't think she was merely taking notes. As a striking aberration, the laptop was put away during P3. It was at this time that her interest in finance blossomed. One can only speculate regarding the coincidence of our teacher being an ex-Naval aviator.
00:02:19
Speaker
Elected as CMS rep, given her extensive background in recruitment, she reflected her big heart by happily helping people with their career choices or CVs. As to herself, we have yet to see whether she will end up as an investment banker, entrepreneur, or HR director. She is certainly well qualified to work it out.
00:02:41
Speaker
I'm laughing, I'm laughing. So I ended up as an investment banker, not an HR director, and now I have one finger in the hospitality industry as well, so I'm really laughing. I don't remember who's written it, you should ask Casper, maybe it was him, but
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah, so life is funny. And my interest in finance, though, it wasn't quite quite worse. It was actually a visiting professor from Wharton. I forget his name now.
00:03:20
Speaker
And it was applied corporate finance. And this is where I fell in love with finance, which was a major, major surprise for me because I came to INSEAD thinking I want to do general management, so I want to do marketing and, you know, business development and then, boom, finance. So that was the shocking bit.
00:03:46
Speaker
So why don't you tell us a little bit about the last 20 years,
Career Transitions: London and Kazakhstan Experiences
00:03:50
Speaker
Milena. You've heard all about us. This is where we asked you for your elevator pitch. Right. Let's see how I do on time. So last 20 years in a nutshell. So post in Seattle, I actually hung around campus for another few months because I didn't have a job.
00:04:11
Speaker
the job market was difficult and remember how they used to tell us the career management service that it was post the dot-com bubble so they used to tell us you cannot change more than one dimension so focus if you want to change industry you cannot change anything else and I listened to this and therefore I changed absolutely everything.
00:04:36
Speaker
So I went from, I was in the recruitment industry in Poland before instead, and then I ended up in investment banking in Austria. The only thing I didn't change was the market because my entire life, the theme has been emerging markets, centuries in Europe, but also emerging markets, developing markets. You speak fluent Russian, right? I speak Russian, I speak Polish, I speak
00:05:04
Speaker
What else do I speak? English, obviously French, a bit of Italian, Bulgarian. So yeah, it's on various levels. I speak seven, but you know, it's like with the first day at Tincia, the first day you keep saying your story to people and you think you are very unique. And by the end of the first day, you're like, oh, but everyone else is the same, right? Oh, I've lived here and there and there. And then everyone else has lived in,
00:05:31
Speaker
a thousand other places therefore it's not that special as far as INSEAD is concerned. I moved to Vienna and I spent two and a half years in Vienna doing corporate finance so basically I was working on M&A deals as well as listings of banks in Central and Eastern Europe. So we sold banks
00:05:54
Speaker
We acquired some banks on behalf of our clients. We listed at least one bank that I can remember. We listed actually a Bulgarian one. And that was two and a half years. And then love called and I had, or I wanted to move to London therefore. And so in 2006, I moved to London, the end of 2006, just in time for the Litvinenko
00:06:25
Speaker
case for those who may remember the poisoning of this Russian guy so that's the sushi story and the green tea story yes so it's forever the image it was my first weeks in London and that's what I remember but yes so I stayed with the same bank but I moved from corporate finance into research so I did equity research which means I was covering banking
00:06:53
Speaker
Again, Central Eastern Europe, Georgia, and CIS. And I did that until 2008 when I got a call from a headhunter who was chasing me for a job in Kazakhstan.
00:07:11
Speaker
And I didn't even know where Kazakhstan was on the map. I'm being very honest. And so I said, no, no way. And then he kept on calling. And I guess there weren't crazy enough people to go to Kazakhstan. So at the end of the day, I took the job. And April 2008, I moved to Almaty Kazakhstan. So do you have to be crazy to move to Almaty?
00:07:39
Speaker
Well you have to be quite a bit crazy because it's the closest the closest the nearest places you can go to are four four and a half hour flights to Seoul, Beijing, Istanbul is about five hours and Moscow is about four and a half so
00:07:59
Speaker
by plane and then it was in hindsight it was also very crazy because 2008 best turns had already happened and 2008 we know what happened in September but
00:08:15
Speaker
Kazakhstan was already in meltdown because Kazakhstan is a very rich country in resources, oil, gas, uranium. They have every element from the periods table that you can think of. But because they were so rich in resources, they had gotten very leveraged.
00:08:37
Speaker
And you know what happened with the leverage in 2008, it all blew up. So Kazakhstan was actually probably one of the first or the first entire market that imploded. Also because, you know, everyone wanted to give them debt, but the local economy wasn't developed, so all of this was going into real estate.
00:09:00
Speaker
then you know what happens with real estate. So I arrived there just in time for the banks to start blowing up. And as I like to say, I had an amazing three and a half years of getting educated and getting paid for it. So I was working in Almaty and I was living in London. However, you can imagine this working. Basically I was 20 days of the month in Almaty and 10 days of the month in London. It's a 12 hour traveling time door to door.
00:09:28
Speaker
It's a six or seven hours time difference, depending on winter or summer. And it's not amazing. And then on top of that, all the other travel you have to do forward.
00:09:38
Speaker
Um, so that was, um, corruption there, there is, well, there's corruption everywhere. There's plenty of corruption in Bulgaria. So, um, so were you exposed to it? Well, the way I was exposed to it is the banks were blowing up because of corruption. So I had to, you know, analyze banks where.
00:09:59
Speaker
You were seeing balance sheets that were imploding and they were imploding. And as someone else earlier said in an earlier episode, with banks, you never know what's actually on the balance sheet. And the bigger the bank, the less transparent. So as an analyst, you're
00:10:21
Speaker
Yeah, you're guessing things. And you can suspect things as in how big is a bad loan portfolio. But yeah, so this way, one of the biggest banks, and the title of this research piece I published was number one at the wrong time. So it was a timely, I'm good with headlines. I'm good with titles. This bank blew up maybe one or two months later and was nationalized.
Moscow: Leadership and Personal Challenges
00:10:52
Speaker
BTA, so it's history now, you won't find it. Yeah, so and then in 2011, I moved to Moscow and where I continue to cover banking stocks, but I also became deputy head of research. So at the peak, we had 100
00:11:10
Speaker
30 or 40 people I no longer remember in research. And people were spreading offices. We also had the sub-Saharan and South African business. So yeah, investors obviously are all over. So US, Asia, as well as Europe. Really not. It's the world's biggest elevator, by the way.
00:11:34
Speaker
Ha, wait, 12, you're right. Well, so you can shut me down. But Daniela is asking questions. Normally, I do not interrupt when we, when you let the person speak it, so we cut this. You're not. No, no, there you go. She doesn't want to cut itself. I'm asking questions. What happened after? So you're fresh out, yes.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah so okay so I moved to Russia in 2011 and was there until the end of 2012 running the research organization across so it was global and taking
00:12:17
Speaker
Yes, and this was the best thing. So Daniela, Velichka and Olga, we went to an ice skating rink in Moscow and also went to Bolshoi and I bought the most expensive available tickets in the front in one of the, what do you call them, the private
00:12:41
Speaker
And it was amazing and I'm so happy we did it because you know what, we are probably not going to see Bolshoi in this lifetime again. And it's very sad, but it is what it is.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah, the end of 2012, I got downsized, which is basically the entire 2012, my team and the whole bank was involved in rounds of reorganization.
00:13:10
Speaker
which is a new feminism for downsizing. And me as the deputy head of research had the honor of running this for the research organization. So we went from 140 to maybe 50 or 60 people in that period. And every time you do the next list,
00:13:29
Speaker
You you calculate you know Where's the level at which your name has to show up there because such is life? But it was the best thing that happened to me because I needed to exit Moscow I needed to exit finance And but being in banking you just don't quit yourself for various reasons so so they did me a favor and
00:13:59
Speaker
what I did next is I said, okay, I know I don't want to be in banking anymore. The reason being, I am a bank analyst. I've seen where the finance industry has gone since 2008, and I wasn't optimistic about
00:14:15
Speaker
the prospects. At the time I was also going through a divorce which was amazing. It was a major shock to the system because I married in 2008 and we already separated in 2011 and this whole time
00:14:34
Speaker
was a massive, massive pain. To be honest with you, it took me a number of years to get over it, not in terms of the relationship, but in terms of the failure. I treated it for the longest time as a failure. It's something I failed at.
00:14:50
Speaker
And so when I was thinking what to do next, I realized that going back to banking, going back to the industry, it's a very male-dominated industry, is simply not going to help me solve my biggest priority, which is my personal life.
Life Reflections: Family and Personal Fulfillment
00:15:12
Speaker
So what I did is I bought a ticket around the world and took off for six months. The end of this was our reunion in Ponti in 2013, after which I parked myself at the Black Sea coast for two months, which had been a dream of mine. So I had lived away from Bulgaria for almost 20 years at this point in time.
00:15:36
Speaker
Eventually where I am today is I serve on boards. I have my own small business in aromatherapy, which is a direct to consumer model. I help with my family's business, which means these days my mother became the investor in a building we converted into a hotel. So I've opened the hotel and Rob is gonna advise me on
00:16:04
Speaker
on better marketing and commercial aspects. And then I do a lot of pro bono work, a lot of it.
00:16:16
Speaker
for courses that I care about. NCIAD is one of those. The general discourse is another one. So in Bulgaria, I started a podcast last year, which again, the topic is let's change the way we talk about, the way we see ourselves as Bulgaria, as a nation. And so, yeah, that's where I am. And on the happy side, because it sounded quite,
00:16:45
Speaker
gloomy for a moment. After two years of being absolutely single, which was a first I must admit in my life, I got a guy who landed on my balcony in London
00:17:01
Speaker
A lot of you know I have a big balcony and the strategic move he made was he came with two bottles of champagne. And so we have a seven-year-old son now and I'm mostly spending time in Bulgaria. We still have our London home, but most of the time is spent in Bulgaria these days. So that's my elevator pitch. That elevator got stuck.
00:17:33
Speaker
The elevator pitch was very interesting. You've done a lot of different things. But if you think about challenges, and I think you did mention some of them, but specifically, you have mentioned in the past that finance isn't an industry that women can flourish in. Can you explain why you think that, or why that was your experience?
00:17:58
Speaker
So this is not a challenge. I mean, for a woman to decide that she doesn't like where she is and to move on is a fact of life. I did not like entering a boardroom with 22 men and two women on a regular basis. I did not like eating lunch in the empty lunchroom where I was the only woman. And the guys had to talk with me out of
00:18:25
Speaker
um politeness but what they can talk to me about was spongebob they didn't know what to talk about i wasn't surprised i wasn't enjoying it and the most important aspect in fact which i may be alluded to before is
00:18:40
Speaker
To be successful in a male-dominated environment, you have to bring to the front more of the male behaviors, because this is how you survive. And especially in banking, it's an aggressive environment. There are no niceties when you're an MD.
00:19:02
Speaker
because either I eat lunch or eat lunch. We don't both eat lunch. So it's a very crude, you know, who gets the biggest bonus, et cetera, et cetera, bullshit. It's not bullshit, but it's bullshit. So basically, I just at some point did not want to be in this energy anymore because I was losing my femininity. And as I said, I was going through a divorce. And the question for me was, there were two options. I can be very rich and lonely
00:19:32
Speaker
you know, 10 years down the line or I have to change something so that I'm happy and I'm not lonely and I'm with someone that I enjoy being with. And so that was the choice. That was what I had to problem solve for. That's how I felt. And in fact, this journey and just like
00:19:54
Speaker
Having a clean slate was very important to clear the energy, to lose these behaviours of the aggressive always getting things done. You know what? We don't always have to get things done. Sometimes we have to let them go.
00:20:11
Speaker
But in these environments you don't let go. You keep on biting. So this is the finance. The biggest challenge was solving my personal life because I was 36 and getting divorced. I thought I'm 36 and starting a family and then someday I'm 36 and getting divorced.
00:20:34
Speaker
So I went through the fear of, would I be alone? I went through the fear of, would I have children? I did want, and I've always assumed I'll have two kids. We are very happy with how things have ended up, but I was 40 when I had my son, so it's not a given. I remember I was, so I was,
00:21:02
Speaker
I was setting out to go around the world and I had started research to see if I should freeze my eggs, something that's very common. And back 10 years ago, it was a topical race. And there were a few women that I know of in our promotion who did.
00:21:23
Speaker
I went to a clinic on Harvey Street and the consultant consulted me and then I did the first test and everything was fine and then I was supposed to, so I did the test and then I was supposed to give them a call to get the next steps and I was in Laos at the time.
00:21:42
Speaker
So I give them a call and they wouldn't put me through to the consultant until they got my credit card details. And I was already a patient or however you want to tell it. And this was the point at which I was like, well, let me think about this. And for me, my conclusion was I want a family. I don't want a child. So for me, I said, I'm not going through with this.
00:22:12
Speaker
And maybe the morning prayer of the Laotian, we were in Luang Prabang, and this was one of the most amazing experiences I've had, like going in the morning and giving them offerings, and just it was so... So maybe it helped, but I said, okay, I accept, maybe I will not have children, but I am not willing to go through with this. And so, yeah, these are things that
00:22:41
Speaker
this is what I've been solving for. And in one of the conversations, Kavya said, you know, career is not linear. Well, life is not linear, right?
00:22:55
Speaker
But I think the fact that you took this time off, right? Something that we all dream about, right? And you had your eat, pray, love moment. I totally did. That's around the world. I won't be shy about it. I was very, very lucky. No, but I think, you know, I think, you know, everyone dreams of it. I think you were brave enough to actually do it. You know, I happened to do it during COVID, so I didn't get to go around the world.
00:23:23
Speaker
But I think it'd be interesting to hear a little bit more about what you discovered during this time off, right? And about yourself, about life, about what you wanted and what you did about it and the journey that you went through with you. Because a lot of people taking some time off, they go straight back into what they were doing, right? But you pivoted completely and
00:23:51
Speaker
you know, change jobs, change careers, change where you lived, et cetera, et cetera, right? So tell us a bit more.
00:23:59
Speaker
So, you know, we are trained to analyze and to be very rational about things. And because of all the emotional distress I was going through. So there are three things in life that ruin you. One is divorce, one is losing your job, and I forget what's the third one, and then you die. So I had two of those at the same time. So you are pushed, you are pushed. And this is when either you grow,
00:24:30
Speaker
or you go back to your old self, but going back to your old self, you know it's gonna come back to bite you. You go back to square one. So what I figured, I had a super structured life for the 10 years because I was living in Almaty, working in Almaty, commuting to London, then Moscow, London, et cetera. My life was scheduled in 15 minute slots.
00:24:57
Speaker
I was flying, I don't know, I was making three or four tours around the world per year. And I was, you know, everything was scheduled a year ahead. So what I said is right, now I'm going to learn to not have structure and to actually be spontaneous.
00:25:19
Speaker
Bespentaneous. So what I did is so I went to Southeast Asia and what I did there is I had around the world, so I had preliminary, I had booked flights for all the stops. So basically what I did is I said, okay, there's one place in which I will not have a plan. So I had a flight from Bangkok to Rangoon
00:25:46
Speaker
And I had the night, I had booked the first night in the hotel in Raghun and then I had no plans. I had the return flight. And so I said, I will figure it out. I will survive. I was also very afraid because I was on my own. And so of all the countries in the world that I can do, not in the world, of my itinerary that I can do this, I chose to do it in Myanmar, which is, you know, at the time they still had limited availability of hotels.
00:26:15
Speaker
sales, flights, I had the blast. What I also did is I deleted my Bloomberg application, I deleted the FT, so I said I'm not going to read finance news, I'm totally going to unplug. This lasted for a while, but to be honest with you, I love markets and I love economics, so eventually I went back to reading and following.
00:26:44
Speaker
But it did help me in like clearing my head. I remember in the States, we then ended up, I flew from Tokyo to San Francisco. My mom flew from Sofia to San Francisco. We met at the airport, rented a Mustang convertible. And I always joke the only defect with this was it was not red, it was black.
00:27:08
Speaker
And we set off on a trip from West Coast to East Coast. We stopped and visited with Plaman and Jeff and then stopped on the East Coast and saw more friends. It was Kavya in Chicago. And so I remember moments where I was just singing with my out loud. And this is you need to get things out and you need to get your power back.
00:27:37
Speaker
To get to this point, you have to be really low. You have to be really pushed, I think, because if you are comfortable, you don't have to. Okay, so in the 10 years after that, you've been involved in several different types of endeavors.
Entrepreneurial Ventures: Hotel and Aromatherapy
00:27:54
Speaker
You've been an NED, a non-executive director on boards. And I think you took the
00:28:01
Speaker
the class at INSEAD also. Very good program, highly recommended ID. You started your own website, e-commerce for oils for essential oil. You have a hotel in Velico, Tarnovo, which is the town from, and probably more that I can't think of, but what's your favorite?
00:28:23
Speaker
of them, what would you like to do more of? The hotel was the family business, so family comes and I cannot say no. What's the name of the hotel? If people want to sort of look it up and... Oh, it's bridgesresidents.com. It's a nice small hotel, but it's small, it's seven rooms. It's super nice, we now have become the go-to place for embassies.
00:28:51
Speaker
My hometown is the old capital of Bulgaria. It's quite touristic and it's one of the top places to visit if you ever come visit Bulgaria. So you're all very welcome to be my guest. Not at the same time, please. Seven rooms. Anyhow, so that's the family business. What I enjoy most is actually doing these things that don't pay.
00:29:19
Speaker
So I enjoy the podcast. I enjoy the Bulgarian podcast. I also love the aromatherapy because you can actually help a lot with a lot of common ailments and, you know,
00:29:34
Speaker
flu season and viruses and all sorts of problems like sleep disorders. So I love when people call me back and they're like, oh, this was amazing. Thank you so much, et cetera, et cetera. But I do not give it enough of time.
00:29:51
Speaker
And what's the website that you sell? So we're basically the distributor of a German brand for Bulgaria. It's called Oshadi. And the Bulgarian one is Oshadi.bege, but you won't be able to read anything on it. But you see, even this, I do more so far more as a cause than as and as a passion more than a money making enterprise.
00:30:21
Speaker
Um, so I, yeah, my motivation has changed to be honest. So it sounds like that, yeah, that, that eat, pray, love is really kind of driving your, you know, your choices these days, but I'm interested in actually what you kind of, as we were talking about the impact of the war. And I think sometimes those of us who are a bit further afield from, from, from, from Europe and Ukraine, you know, don't appreciate it.
Geopolitical Insights and Bulgarian Brain Drain
00:30:47
Speaker
and don't understand kind of the impact, but you having worked extensively in Russia and in and around the region, you know, you live right next door in Bulgaria, you know, what's your take on what's happening?
00:31:02
Speaker
So I remember we had the visit from the founder of Roland Berger. Is that how he pronounced the consulting name? Yeah. When we were on campus. And the guy was saying, we were very fortunate. We lived in very peaceful times. And your generation is not going to have this privilege. He said this in 2003.
00:31:27
Speaker
Um, and at the time, I mean, I come from the Eastern side of the wall. You know, we were, we were exploding on the scene. We were blossoming. So it was hard to, it was hard to actually believe in what he was saying, but you know, 20 years later, unfortunately, uh, he's been proven right.
00:31:50
Speaker
And what we have today might take is that one way or however you want to call it, this is a situation where the world is split again. And it's not going back. These things last a long time. It's not going back to any sort of a previous status quo anytime soon, as in this is going to last decades. That's my take on it. I've been heartbroken because I've worked and lived in this region. I've helped colleagues
00:32:19
Speaker
I have friends in Moscow who you can imagine if you're a Western educated liberal economist or whatever business minded person, you can imagine that what you see with your mind is difficult to accept.
00:32:39
Speaker
So we had five or six Bulgarians in the promotion seven Seven you're the only one living in Bulgaria today. Is that right? It spends quite a bit of time here Yeah, so she travels regularly. She her client base quite a few clients. I from my understanding So why do you think that is that does that they're not coming back because I'm assuming the
00:33:05
Speaker
It's a brain drain for Bulgaria. Well, basically, had I not found my husband, who is Bulgarian, probably I wouldn't be here as well, because once you're in a mixed marriage, in a mixed relationship, it becomes very difficult. Bulgaria is not a place where you easily... In tech, in IT, you probably can, but still the differential in pay is very different, so you're not...
00:33:35
Speaker
You still, with our education, you'd get a much better opportunity elsewhere. So for me, it's amazing to be here and to have my son growing up near his grandparents. Grandparents in Bulgaria are a big deal, big deal. So I feel very fortunate and very blessed that I can be here, but, you know,
00:33:58
Speaker
if I look at Iliana's husband is Italian, Maria's husband, they live in Zurich, he's French I believe, right? So Victoria's husband is from London and he's not gonna move from that one street, never mind London, never mind the country, right? Plamen is also like they live in the States, his wife is Australian, so you know, life gets in the way of things. Okay, so let's
00:34:27
Speaker
transition to the part of the podcast where you ask us for money, right? So obviously, we don't have to do that. And we don't have to kind of talk about, you know, we don't have to harass you to give back to it and say, hey, I'm a broad salamander, so I'm not, I'm not shy about it.
00:34:50
Speaker
But I think we can kind of adapt the question, I think, because I think as someone who has been flying the inside flag for the last 20 years, really, not just donating money, but also donating time, effort, you know,
00:35:13
Speaker
constant thought, right, to not just Isiah, as you mentioned, but other causes as well, you know, and kind of applying lots of different ways and charm and creativity and being thoughtful and funny, you know, what's your motivation for doing this, right? You know, what do you get out of it, you know, and why?
00:35:38
Speaker
Is it such an important part? And this is also your opportunity to plug the endowment and what you're trying to speak. But it'd be interesting for you to tell it in terms of your journey and any evolution that you've seen, any changes in people's attitudes. So basically, I came to INSEAD with a scholarship
00:36:07
Speaker
from Ally Lilly, it was merit-based scholarship for innovation.
Education and INSEAD's Global Role
00:36:12
Speaker
I had to write an essay about, I had done something innovative in the recruitment industry in Poland, that's true. And so the scholarship covered half the tuition.
00:36:25
Speaker
which in today's money is 40,000. In 20 years ago, money, it was 21,000 or something like that. Situation doubled? Our tuition is close to 90,000 now, yes. Unfortunately, the Americans keep on raising tuition and then we keep on raising tuition because we compete for the same professors, right?
00:36:46
Speaker
And then if you do the compounded of the 42,000 in 2003 until today, it ends up more or less there with inflation. So, you know, it sounds bombastic, but the power of compounding people, one lesson from finance, the power of compounding. But then someone said, you know, and if we had put our tuition in Apple stock, now it's gonna be 20 million. So, you know, the power of investing, anyhow, I'm digressing.
00:37:17
Speaker
So for me, at the time, it would have been super difficult to finance it myself. I was earning my salary was something like $500 a month.
00:37:35
Speaker
before you said, so imagine I was making $6,000 a year, and the tuition was 42 plus living expenses. So it made all the difference. And the moment I got the scholarship, I said, okay, I have to pay, I will pay this back.
00:37:51
Speaker
I couldn't imagine in my wildest dreams, starting with $500 per month's salary, how I could pay it back with money. I was not very, you know. So I started fundraising and then I paid it back with money and all that, so that's fine. But you know why I do it, I will revert to what a lot of people in these episodes have been saying.
00:38:16
Speaker
In the quickfire questions at the end, a lot of people have mentioned the word impact a lot. It's most people. And it's having an impact and working for something that's bigger than oneself.
00:38:33
Speaker
Without education, society goes down the drain. And in Bulgaria, as Daniela mentioned, we have the brain drain, okay? And then we have a horrible quality of education. It's gone downhill in the last 20 years. And sometimes people tell me, yes, but MBA is a luxury good soul. And I'm like, but you need leaders as well.
00:39:00
Speaker
And it's not leaders in the arrogant sense, but it's people who have the courage, people who are willing to be honest. So if you want to change things, we need education at all levels.
00:39:22
Speaker
And I think the world is at a point where, I mean, I just read the headline today, we are so far away from the targets of the Paris Agreement.
00:39:33
Speaker
you know, and this is a result of the leadership we have, right around the whole world. It's just, it's depressing. So by anyhow, that's my motivation. And I would probably say that INSEAS is probably more, the experience is more than just an education, right? And it's more than the subjects that we learn. And I think, especially in today, where the world is getting more fragmented, right? This is a place where you do have
00:40:03
Speaker
all of these nationalities coming together and it really is truly global and international, right? More so, I would say, than some of the American schools, right? Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I remember, I'll quote again from first day on campus, Dean Hawawini at the time was giving the speech. And I remember him saying, remember, you've come here to learn to be humble.
00:40:31
Speaker
No other business school tells you that. Do you remember what he said on the first day? I actually remember. Do you, Vanya? I do because I looked at him and I thought, oh, come on, you're such a pompous... Okay, but I'll challenge you. If you listen to the people on the podcast, there are some super, super successful people
00:40:55
Speaker
And I haven't heard arrogance. There's no humble brag a little bit. Oh, well, I don't know. Well, I don't know. But I mean, to be honest with you, because I've interacted behind the scenes with these people as well. And it's not like they're going to sell their business because they come on the podcast, right? So there's no such motivation. I've dealt with some super normal people.
00:41:24
Speaker
that actually are super impressive. I keep on saying thank goodness for my healthy sense of self-confidence because otherwise, you know, some of the things people have done are like, Jesus. You've also seen them dance without their shirts on, right? So it's not necessary. That's a great equalizer, right? Yeah, yeah. We'll keep that. We keep the paper coffee safe, people. So behave.
00:41:56
Speaker
Exactly. So if anyone gets too big for their bridges, just remind them.
00:42:02
Speaker
And I think that's actually, that's one, that kind of leads on to another question. Since you talked to so many of our classmates, right? And I think you have made a tremendous effort through this podcast series as well as through kind of all everything you've been doing for the last 20 years. What are your impressions from some of the, like what are some impressions you've had on our class and from some of the conversations you've had and how has it evolved potentially?
00:42:29
Speaker
um you know besides you know us all wanting to to have impact yeah so one theme i am seeing is uh this question about retirement uh people are not having plans to retire uh in the classical sense what do you think that is well i think it's a combination for one thing we i mean
00:42:58
Speaker
We are too curious as a bunch. That's another theme, by the way. Quite a few of the people say, I get bored too easily, therefore. And when you are too curious, you enjoy things and you cannot.
Health, Well-being, and INSEAD Community Changes
00:43:16
Speaker
So people say, I will slow down, but to stop. Majority of people say, I'll continue being active.
00:43:24
Speaker
Um, but all in all, pretty much we are very far away from retirement is my conclusion. But we're also maybe working at the same time. Another topic, which is becoming a topic is health as in taking care of health. And a lot of people are acknowledging that maybe they've been slacking off.
00:43:50
Speaker
And maybe they should have done it sooner, but people are getting there. Most people sleep well with one or two exceptions, which is good because sleep is fundamental, huh? Yeah, Rob, we have to work on your sleep. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think of the changes that INSEAD has gone through?
00:44:12
Speaker
over the past 20 years. I sometimes view you as like a, almost a spokesperson for NCI in all promotion. And so I think you have a front row seat because you donate, but not just because of that, you mentioned you did the- IDP program. And I do- The school has changed. So we said, okay, so tuition is doubled, but how else has it changed? So we've had one Dean for 10 years.
00:44:42
Speaker
That's a first in the history of INSEAD. He just, as you know, stepped down and we have a new dean, so we'll be the first class to be welcomed by the new dean. And having one dean that can deliver on his vision, mission, strategy consistently, it's like having a CEO, right?
00:45:07
Speaker
Although you could argue that that's not really changed because you got the same guy for 10 years. So he's doing one.
00:45:14
Speaker
academia moves slow but in any case what and the good thing is NCI has term limits so the dean is has maximum of two terms and they have expired so we have a new dean so and it's been a very impressively smooth process but what's changed because if you remember if you remember we had a few deans that were like changing in rapid succession and that's not good
00:45:42
Speaker
So we are better in the rankings, much better than where we were in 2003. Now, what's changed for the school? You think canceling Welcome Week changed the school? And I'm not going into why it was canceled and all that. But now that there's been a few, I don't know, three or four years without Welcome Week,
00:46:07
Speaker
I can say for myself, Welcome Week was a real sort of anchor of the culture of the place. It's more than that.
00:46:16
Speaker
I agree with this. On the other hand, I cannot see how all the pranks we were doing can survive in the time of TikTok, Instagram and Facebook. And in fact, I would not name the professor who told me that, but he says we were such a fun class. And nowadays they're so much more serious and so much more studious.
00:46:41
Speaker
and laborious, but I don't know if it's the school, if it's generational change as well, but welcome, we could have not, we had an amazing thing, but it could have not, we would have been dead as a school, social media would have taken care of it.
00:47:01
Speaker
And at the time, it wasn't clear to me because I was also upset. At the time, it wasn't clear to me the impact of social media. It became clear a couple of years later. But I mean, imagine the Me Too and all the rest. And it's like, what is joke? What is not? Yeah, I don't think we even had Facebook. I think Facebook started around 2000. We had nothing. We had log off emails. Yeah. And maybe and maybe someone should dig out and find one of those.
00:47:31
Speaker
Hilarious stuff. Okay, so next is the quick round of questions that you've been asking at the end. There's like a dozen questions here. I'll start with a few and then Rob will take over. First question, proudest achievement. My family aside, which I'm super happy with, I'm quite happy about our own class endowment. It's a baby I've nurtured all along and this gives me super special pleasure. Okay. Success for you. How do you define success?
00:48:00
Speaker
Having the freedom to choose what I do. Happiness is? A one month road trip with my son and husband. Where to?
00:48:12
Speaker
We went to south of France and back, 6,300 kilometers. That's happy. Yeah, I went in high province where the lavender grows. And then you took it back to make essential oils. Oh, no, no, no. It's distillation you cannot make. You can't, but I know. Biggest regret. The road trip? No regret because I won't be here otherwise, but I would say, I would say I
00:48:40
Speaker
If I, while I had a great wedding party, you know that, I would have skipped that bit. You would have skipped having a wedding party? I would have skipped that wedding, even though it was a great party. What keeps you awake at night?
00:48:59
Speaker
You know what? I sleep well in general, as in I can fall asleep on a plane, I can fall asleep. However, I have a sleep disorder from my many years in banking. I'm used to working until late. I'm a night owl. And the trouble is, 7am I have to get up.
00:49:20
Speaker
because we have to get ready for school, et cetera, et cetera. So this is what keeps me just working my brain, but I'm training myself because I have read and I've mentioned more than once the book, Why We Sleep, highly recommended. And so, yeah, it's the sleep disorder from having worked crazy hours and having changed time zones, commuting and jet lags and all that for many, many years.
00:49:49
Speaker
Okay, so moving on to the next set of questions. So what do you wish you had known or someone had told you? It's mostly I need to be reminded because I forget it often enough that after the rain comes the rainbow, I just, you know, in the darkest hour, I need someone to just remind me, hey, hey, that's it. That's nice, actually. And if you had to do it all over again, what would you change?
00:50:19
Speaker
I said it. I'll skip the wedding. Otherwise, I'll find retirement ever or never. Or is it now? Well, look, this is a bit like Sylvia said in the sense of working for money, I've retired. I retired in 2013 in that sense. And in fact, when I was pregnant and I was going to yoga for pregnant
00:50:42
Speaker
mothers. I, you know, you have these circles and they ask you what you do. And I'm like, well, I'm retired and people look at me and in Bulgaria, this is not what's wrong with you. Are you sick? Because in Bulgaria, you retire out of old age or because you're sick. So, but no, I retired. Therefore I'm busier than before. Um, but as I said, I choose what to do. I have that luxury. And if you had to pick one book that everyone should read,
00:51:13
Speaker
The Roots of Love by Swagito Liebemeister. Oh, you thought about this one, haven't you? No, it sits downstairs in my library and a lot of the books that I love have been mentioned, but this one helped me go through my big heartaches and dramas. And who's the author? Swagito Liebemeister.
00:51:40
Speaker
Bulgarian? No, I believe he's German. It's about family constellations. It's psychodrama and like understanding the traumas that you come with really good. You're most admired public person. For the love of me, I couldn't come up with one. And I wrote this. Exactly. You've heard enough answers. 25 times. Yeah, but you know, and it's not that I don't believe in public people. I do believe there are some good public people.
00:52:10
Speaker
I just couldn't come up with one I really, really admired this time. And you're the most despised public person then. Yeah. When I was writing this question, it was around the time that Twitter was getting finally acquired and was, and you know, the guy came with the toilet sink. So yes, that guy. You want to name him? Yeah. Mask. Fair enough. You know, so I think after, you know,
00:52:40
Speaker
25 podcasts, you know, a year and hours, uh, saving way
Podcast Impact and Community Connection
00:52:46
Speaker
for this class. I think, um, you know, you know, this is what a year in the making or two years in the making the, um, the last question, right? Are you coming to the reunion? What do you think?
00:53:01
Speaker
thankfully hopefully nothing happened no black cats crossing the road as we say in Bulgaria and so yes I'll see you there both of you and many more 147 so far plus partners 200 so we are the biggest class on campus of course there's something special about our class right and absolutely well we are remembered to
00:53:29
Speaker
Okay, so before I do our closing here, is there anything you want us to ask that we didn't think of before? No. Okay. You want to correct anything? No.
00:53:44
Speaker
Okay, so thank you, Milena, and thank you for listening in to our conversation with Milena Ivanova, the creator and host of this awesome Republic of INSEAD podcast. Whether in the gym, or the car, or the kitchen, or wherever else you tune in, what?
00:54:01
Speaker
I just remembered, you know how, so I told you, so this I've been working on for two years in my head, in my head, then like the last three, four months actually physically.
00:54:14
Speaker
But so two things I want to say is first, we were talking with you in the beginning about the podcast, and you were saying, how come there isn't a single example of women from our class going in business together? Because we have, and they've been on the podcast, guys from our class that have gone in business together are super successful, 20 years later, continue to be in business together, haven't divorced each other, et cetera.
00:54:44
Speaker
And so I have two challenges for us as a class, you know, because we have to have, for the 2050 reunion, we have to come up with something new. So the podcast would be old by then, so. So this is a challenge to the 23% of us who? Yeah, well, to everyone, to everyone. So two challenges. One is, can we please try and make the,
00:55:15
Speaker
example of women getting in business together, 20 years after inside. How difficult is that? It's the easiest recruitment you can do, right? Finding a partner from a bunch, you know. That's one. And the second one is generally more about doing things in business together, as in business doing things that are good, as a force for good, whatever you like to call it.
00:55:42
Speaker
Or, you know, and we have a bunch of guys who may be even willing to invest in these businesses. So this is my challenge for the 2050 reunion. It's on the record so you can play it five years from now. Yes. All right. So we were in the middle of saying that whether you're in the gym or the car or kitchen or wherever else you tune into this podcast,
00:56:07
Speaker
We appreciate your time and we look forward to catching up on October 6th and 7th, 2023 in Fonty. Au revoir. Au revoir.
Closing and 20-Year Reunion Invitation
00:56:18
Speaker
Thank you, Rob and Daniella. Thank you. See you in Fonty. You were listening to the Republic of Incia 20 years later or 3D podcast edition.
00:56:33
Speaker
It is my hope to remind everyone what an interesting and, dare I say, colorful bunch of people we are, and how much we can contribute to each other, be it through ideas, knowledge, or mere inspiration. The podcast is inspired by the original Republic of India Yearbook, produced on paper 20 years ago by Oliver Bradley and team. Thank you, Ollie and team, for this contribution to our class's memory and for letting me continue in the tradition, title and inspiration included.
00:57:02
Speaker
Creator and author of the Republic of Incia 20 Years Later O3D Podcast Edition, M.I. Milena Ivanova. Original music by Peter Dondakoff would help from their film's productions. Stay tuned for more and remember to book your tickets for the 20-year reunion in Fontainebleau October 6th, 8, 2023. Thank you for listening.