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00:00:01
Keep humming.... “You're walking on this rope with a river full of alligators below you, and you're doing a dance basically”
191 Plays1 year ago
Running your own business is like a marathon at the speed of a sprint
Your mental health is under constant stress, what I realized early on is it's a very lonely space to do it, because there are very few people who do this.
Quite frankly, you're dealing with more failures than successes than from the outside people see.
I still remember sitting on my balcony with helicopters flying by, with soldiers and machine guns roads were blocked. You know buildings boarded up or you know it was, it was absolutely intense.
20 YEARS IN PERSPECTIVE:
We built the number one vitamin water brand in the UK and Ireland, it was bought by Pepsi several years later.
I worked for Pepsi for 3 -4 years in the UK and then we had this second big adventure together with the same wonderful business partner where we moved to Los Angeles.
I had immediately another and entrepreneurial bug, so I started the first low-cost gym chain in the UK, but I quickly realized how difficult it is to start a company when you don't have a business partner as incredibly fun and smart and nice to work with. So I decided to let that go.
And eleven years later we're still here thriving and building the business. We just increased our distribution footprint with a massive deal in Target which is super exciting.
On topic: vitamins, supplements, the supplements market opportunity in the US
We realized very quickly that the vitamin market was huge in America, yet it was extremely outdated, so this was ripe for disruption, which is why we settled here in LA, which is considered the centre of health and wellness. This is where the trends start they show up first on TV programs, or in movies and then they spread across the world.
It's not a multivitamin that will fix your unhealthy diet, right? The basis has to be right, you should eat your vegetables, your fruit, ideally you got your fiber, etc., that is really an ideal foundation. And then I would recommend to supplement or, as we say, complement with those micronutrients that are hard to come by with a regular diet.
Here in the United States there's a real shrinking of the gut microbiome, because the diets are not very well-balanced.
As you age your digestive enzymes deplete actually and this helps you break down the foods and foods have become more and more complicated, especially processed foods.
On topic: start-ups, entrepreneurial endeavors, INSEAD business partners
If you think about that, we have spent at this point 5,000 days together, which is a long time.
It's a very special relationship to have a business partner for many, many years. They know your real working life from a very unique perspective. It's not the same as having a report or having a boss is not the same as having a life partner, it is different.
When you start something you can develop a bit of luck and you develop opportunities and things that you wouldn't have known were going to start when you began the business
All things INSEAD and giving back
I honestly think that we have profited from the INSEAD connections almost more than anybody else.
We raised our seed money largely through INSEAD alums to get the V-water business off the off the ground.
So a lot of our seed investors were INSEAD, 2 of our board members of V-water were also INSEAD. Several of our INSEAD original investors have continued to support us with the HUM nutrition business in Los Angeles.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Series
00:00:00
Speaker
This is Republic of Insead, the 20 years later O3D podcast edition. I am Milena Ivanova and will be your host in this limited series.
Stories from the O3D Vintage Class
00:00:11
Speaker
So, here we are, 20 years later, hopefully all the wiser, naturally smarter and as charming as ever. There were 432 of us in the O3D vintage.
00:00:25
Speaker
And certainly there are 432 unique and very interesting personal and professional stories to tell. While I cannot physically cover all, I have tried to make a selection of stories that will keep you interested and curious and will hopefully convince you to join us on campus for reunion. Welcome to the Republic of Insead Podcast Edition and enjoy the show.
00:00:49
Speaker
All
Introducing the Guests: Chris and Walter
00:00:50
Speaker
right, good morning LA it is. The summer is on its way out and I finally get to record with these two hard to get Europeans from LA. Let's see who they are. May I ask one of you to start with a readout from the yearbook please?
00:01:08
Speaker
course. Good morning, Milena. Good to see you. Good to hear you. All right.
Memories from INSEAD Days
00:01:12
Speaker
The first profile is from day one when he defied the odds of 140 euros of Enrico in stats. It was clear that he was going to make a lasting impression on both faculty and students. Highlights include the well-deserved
00:01:25
Speaker
10 out of 10 participation grade in Management Accounting, winning the Stats Bottle of Champagne, speaking up in protest of the April 1st Finance One Pop Quiz, and his creation of the unforgettable 7-H Strategic Analysis Framework. He was never far from action, when not speaking up in class with a style, eloquence and colourful flair,
00:01:44
Speaker
that would not be matched. He would be seen charging down amphidas to take par in the vote for KISS trade in the Fisher or Barkey campaign, masquerading as Prince Philip for print week. Bloody foreigners. In this office, in his office, on the library's first floor, or pioneering the illustrious Hubert Society, and I didn't mention advertising once,
00:02:10
Speaker
There we are. Excellent entertainment value, I'd say. And now please for the second guest. Thanks, Milena. That brought back lots of very funny memories. But let me read out this one. The man who invented
00:02:26
Speaker
The seven C's in strategy is himself the man of the seven F's, famous for decadent parties in Paris, New York and Shanghai. Fashionable, even when taking breakfast breaks during exams. Funny, especially when he zombie walks in class an hour late with a massive hangover.
00:02:46
Speaker
friendly to everyone except those who challenge his Cruella de Vil love of fur. The fastest in car turnover, BMW Mercedes, a Mickey Mouse smart car.
00:02:59
Speaker
fierce in his Halloween ticket selling race with the Indians and the Pakistanis. Fabulous in his ability to shut up anyone, even Rasmus, with his verbal machine gun. We all remember his barbecues as part of his social rep position and the Halloween decadence that inspired some to strip naked in front of Zbilsev.
00:03:21
Speaker
E7 classes would have been a lot more fun had you been there more often and people would have gotten drunk on champagne if you hadn't hidden it all for yourself every time you laid your hands on it. That's funny.
00:03:35
Speaker
Absolutely. I was laughing on mute. Very funny. I fully agree with you. So, a few giveaways here. Will Serf and E7 being the most prominent ones, at least to me. Well, unless we count the perfect British accent, you haven't lost it, despite the LA residents. Seven Cs, seven Fs, seven H.
00:03:59
Speaker
Seems that seven has been your lucky number for the two of you. You'll tell me if it still sticks, but where do we begin? The last 20 years in your lives, personal, professional, separately, jointly, whichever way you want to tell us. Well, why don't we summarize our stories each?
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, I went to London after in Seattle, set up this vitamin water business or vitamin water as I used to say it back when I lived in London. Now I will say vitamin with my business partner who's sitting beside me here. I know we're not allowed to say each other's name, which is going to be very, very difficult, but we'll see if we can make it. But we started that together in London, built it up, loved that. It was bought by Pepsi several years later.
00:04:49
Speaker
I got married in the meantime, had a daughter. We now live together in Los Angeles. She's now 16. And it's been a big story about London selling to Pepsi, building that business. I worked for Pepsi for three years or four years after that in the UK. And then we had this second big adventure together with the same wonderful business partner where we moved to Los Angeles. And we'll talk more about that later.
00:05:18
Speaker
Over to you. Yeah, a similar story. And as you know, I moved to London as well. And you were so kind to offer me your spare room. And in your kitchen, we were making little samples for our first brand, which was a vitamin winter brand that we handed out on Westbourne Grove to poor
00:05:39
Speaker
who then tried our products and gave us feedback. No one was killed in the process, luckily, and we built the number one vitamin water brand in the UK and also Ireland, which we're really proud of. And as you said, that was then sold to Pepsi a few years later. And after that, I stayed a little less, you know, my gig at Pepsi was a little shorter than yours. I had immediately another entrepreneurial
00:06:03
Speaker
I started the first low-cost gym chain in the UK with a price point below £10, which was unheard of at the time, by partnering with a Dutch group called Fit4Free.
00:06:16
Speaker
opened a few gyms there. But I quickly realized how difficult it is to start a company when you don't have a business partner as incredibly fun and smart, and nice to work with as yourself. So I decided to let that go. And then we came up with the idea of our latest venture, which is ham nutrition. And that was LA based and the reason we moved to LA was, you know, we're really interested in the health and wellness space in general. And also like during our first
00:06:46
Speaker
gig in the space. We work with this incredible formulator who wrote a book about the importance of gut health and skin health. And she really helped me fix my skin through her advice. So we thought maybe there's something there that we can look into. And we realized very quickly that the vitamin market was huge in America.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah it was extremely outdated so this was right for disruption which is why we settled here in la which is considered the center of the wellness this is where the trends start they show up first on tv programs or movies and then they spread across the world basically
00:07:22
Speaker
Further, I would say the weather doesn't hurt at all. So when you start a business, it doesn't matter where you started, the amount of time and effort you put into it is always the same, regardless of market size or weather conditions. Plus office space was a bit cheaper here when we moved here, compared to say New York or say San Francisco, which are other cities we considered.
00:07:44
Speaker
So we ended up here, which was a great decision. And 11 years later, we're still here, thriving and building the business. We just increased our distribution footprint with a massive deal in Target, which is super exciting. It's one of the top retailers here in the US. And thereby, the business alone is worth a billion dollars, just to give you a bit of a scale.
00:08:05
Speaker
of the market here. Anyway, so that's my trajectory. And I'm really lucky to have such a great business partner in the past.
00:08:15
Speaker
11 years here, and even the time beforehand, there were probably maybe three or four occasions where we really had like a massive ding dong. But outside of that, if you think about that spending, at this point, 5000 days together, which is a long time ago, so I think I spent more time with Christopher than with my husband, I would say it's been a remarkable time that we had together. So that's my summary of the last decade.
00:08:42
Speaker
Excellent. So, right. Hum nutrition, you did say how you came to it, but, and choosing the states, the opportunity is clear, but it's a very difficult thing. And if you're not from there, it adds complication. So can you tell me the biggest challenges you've had in the last 20 years?
00:09:06
Speaker
From a business perspective, I would say, you know, we are always, we're digital native brands. So I think first we had to crack the code of digital, which we did really successfully by focusing on subscriptions, by focusing on education, by really thinking through all the touch points, how to get in front of the consumer, but then also how to convert this consumer. So we had to learn a lot very quickly because neither of us
00:09:33
Speaker
was in, I would say direct to consumer business before. So like learning that part of the business was important. Plus content plays a key role in what we are doing. To give you a perspective, we have over 2 million subscribers in our blog that read our newsletter and that come to our blog called The Wellness. So with incredible content, I think building that up as well took some time, but we've grown this to like over 2 million subscribers now with like, you know,
00:10:04
Speaker
organically, we didn't ever, you know, quiet these subscribers by paying for them. And then layer in, of course, all the digital marketing initiatives, which move very quickly. So in our space, you know, at one point, it was all Facebook, then Instagram, then, you know, there were iOS updates, which made like digital marketing very inefficient. So you have to find new ways of getting in front of the consumer. Then the creative, of course, is very important video short form, long form that changes all the time. So I think,
00:10:31
Speaker
The key to success here is agility and having mindset of constant learning as opposed to having, I would say, a set strategy on how to win our space. And then you layer into that that, you know, the vitamin space is highly fragmented. There are well over 1,500 brands competing for shelf space, competing for the consumer, spending their marketing dollars in similar channels as you do. So finding your way through with creative messaging, creative storytelling,
00:11:01
Speaker
And all these things i think is another one and innovation i would say is another piece where you really like really the forefront of innovating here the whole industry. I'm not saying this because i think we're so great but it's true that they you know they copy our formulas they copy our packaging that copy our messaging that copy our taglines i mean it's.
00:11:18
Speaker
It's incredible how much we inspired the whole industry. We really changed it. So when we started Hum, you would find vitamins sold in either white bottles with a very medicinal positioning or in black bottles with a sort of sport slash performance positioning. And we were really the first brand to bring joy and fun and excitement and color and design and lifestyle and benefits first.
00:11:40
Speaker
to the consumer and i think that was really appreciated because we realized very early on that. When the consumer has a product that is not particularly well presented then they move it away from site so that somewhere hidden in the cupboard in the kitchen on the bathroom if you don't see the product you forget to take it if you don't take it you can't buy more so i thought for us you know it was a good question about compliance.
00:12:01
Speaker
And furthermore, we have really set the bar for clean ingredients in the industry. We have adopted like standards similar to what we have in the European Union from day one. But even prior to what the European Union has done, we have banned ingredients that we have clearly identified as very bad for the consumer. One would be titanium dioxide.
00:12:20
Speaker
That was never part of our formulas, and that has been banned two years ago or three years ago. I forgot now the European Union, and I'm sure America will follow suit. But we have been really a decade ahead when it comes to clean formulas. And then last but not least, we do clinical research, which is super exciting. Not every vitamin brand does that. Actually, there are quite a few. I would say we're one in the top 1% here when it comes to actually clinical research and publishing that. And then one more thing we're extremely proud of is sustainability.
00:12:47
Speaker
So what we realized is like when you're in consumer goods, you actually create a lot of like, I would say pollution, and you create that pollution with your packaging. So we want to do something about that. And over the past three years, and this was also something we did during COVID, we introduced upcycled plastic. So all our bottles are made from 100% upcycled plastic, which is typically collected in your oceans and coastlines around the world.
00:13:11
Speaker
because that plastic often ends up with rain and you know other amino events in the ocean and often these communities don't have recycling structures and they really can gain a living from like actually collecting these plastics and then upcycling them then we buy obviously clean upcycled plastic and make those two bottles so our idea is to never bring any new plastic into the world I do think there's a lot of it already so these are the big initiatives that we have really focused on the past
00:13:38
Speaker
I would say a decade and we're extremely proud of. It is a cutthroat industry. I would say that if you want to get rich, don't start a vitamin company. It takes time. It takes dedication. It takes a lot of energy. It takes
00:13:50
Speaker
you know, also like an approach that prioritizes the consumer when it comes to the health and wellness. And all these things combined make it like a very interesting industry, because you hear sometimes from consumers how grateful they are and how much you have impacted their life in a positive way. But I would say it takes a lot of like effort to really build a strong business here. So anyway, do you want to build on that, Christopher? I think I've spoken a lot.
00:14:15
Speaker
Sorry, no, no, it's great. I think you've covered all that's in line with your machine gun. What was it? Right? You still do the machine gun speech like You know, it's a really interesting industry the violet industry, I mean when we looked at it from a risk approach when when we
00:14:40
Speaker
before we dived in. I mean, one of the things that we noticed is that it just continued to grow and grow. I mean, it had grown for years and we noticed that even when there had been a recession, it carried on growing. I mean, Americans love vitamins. They consume many more ahead than any other country by far in the world.
00:15:01
Speaker
We found that quite reassuring actually. Even when economic times have been more difficult recently, people have continued to buy vitamins. They may not buy a new car, but they will continue to buy health products like vitamins. Again, I think that was a reassuring part of the industry that we identified and it's held true over the years.
00:15:24
Speaker
Yeah. And so since we are talking about the vitamin industry and in our preliminary conversation, I did give you my cynical view on it as there was a point in my life I was getting a lot of newsletters and every month there was a new supplement and a new thing you can you take and you become more amazing. And, and then at some point, I realized that maybe I'm
00:15:52
Speaker
overdoing it, and then eventually I more or less switched off the whole thing. What's your argument there? How much of it is BS versus real product? So you already said you do R&D, et cetera, et cetera, but give me the BS products versus the... How do we as consumers distinguish between a real good stuff and junk?
00:16:16
Speaker
Yes it's a very good question and you're right, imagine a market which is very competitive, you have thousands of products on the market, so like 1500 brands and each of them have say maybe like 100 products minimum, so multiply that, you have a lot of offering here, so obviously you have I would say a combination of like good brands and I would say questionable brands, but that's not even the key question, the key question is what you actually need as a consumer, right? Like I think this sort of like self
00:16:44
Speaker
diagnosing is obviously people love to go online and figure out what's wrong with me and then find a recommendation here and there. And there's a lot of myth and a lot of trends that come and go, ingredients suddenly become extremely popular and then they disappear a year later. It really comes down to what you really need at this point in time, what you're after, right? So for example, if you're eating a healthy diet, I will tell you it's not a multivitamin that will fix your unhealthy diet, right? The basis has to be right. You should eat your vegetables.
00:17:12
Speaker
fruit ideally you got your fiber etc that is really an ideal foundation and then i would recommend to supplement or as we say compliment with those micronutrients that are hard to combine a regular diet. What are these micronutrients probiotics for example sure you can yogurt but like if you take probiotics you get billions of cfus these are life organisms
00:17:35
Speaker
that you find in probiotics and it's an interesting space but what we've seen here in the united states there's a real sort of like i would see shrinking of the gut microbiome because the diets are not very well balanced everybody cleans everything and people take antibiotics all the time the antibiotics in the needs and you know
00:17:51
Speaker
through the entire supply chain so the benefits of good bacteria are undisputed for example now the question is what do you use them for etc so then you really want to think through okay where's the clinical research and that's where really our team of nutritionists come in we have a phd who leads the formulation side of the business.
00:18:09
Speaker
And she really looks at what's the latest and greatest in clinical research, the quality of the studies. Is it just one study? Is it several studies? Is it a study done in humans or animals or is it in a lab, et cetera? So there's a lot of factors to determine whether the quality of the study is there. And then you want to include that micronutrient at the exact standardization in the product. And you want to make sure you test for that, too.
00:18:36
Speaker
From the formulation to the manufacturing to the testing at the end of it, there's a lot of things one has to get right in order to really demonstrate efficacy of the product. And then we go the extra mile by actually conducting our own clinical research with a finished product to validate that actually the combination of ingredients that we have in our formula does deliver on the effect that the product is supposed to have.
00:19:05
Speaker
Now, what happens often is people hear about something, oh, I've heard about this ingredient, and it's trending, and then I take maybe a little bit of this and that. They may not get the right amount. They may get it in the wrong format. So for example, take ashwagandha. You know, it can be from the root, the leaf, the whole plant, et cetera. Key here is that it's standardized to with aniloids, which is the active components. You want to have a certain percentage and that's really where the chemicals are based on. And so those are the details that consumers don't know.
00:19:33
Speaker
But as a brand, you can do a lot of education online about that. What we do is we have a team of RD nutritionists who are actually very skeptical when it comes to vitamin supplementation. So if you think about it, our customer service or customer experience is actually quite skeptical for the space. But because they know what goes into each product and they really educate the consumer to also eat right at the same time, they feel really good about working with them because they know of the
00:19:59
Speaker
the quality of the product that they know about, the efficacy of the product as well. So that's really the approach. And often people think, you know, vitamins are all equal. They're very, very different from the way you manufacture, the way you formulate, the way you market a product, the claims companies are making. I mean, it's just like a wild, I would say, range that truly comes down to the actual brand that you're consuming. I'm really proud to be a brand that has been really at the forefront here.
00:20:28
Speaker
By pushing the needle when it comes to research by pushing the, I would say the barrier higher up when it comes to clean formulations and the quality of the product as well. Another thing I would mention as well, which is important helping wellness in our opinion should be very accessible. So our products are quite affordable. Typically they range from the twenties to thirties.
00:20:49
Speaker
as opposed to 50s, 60s, and 70s. And that's something that was reported to us as well, to bring our product to a wider audience and not price out, I would say, a more price-sensitive consumer. Because I do think there's some really good benefits of consuming probiotics, prebiotics, digestive enzymes, minerals, in certain cases when you're stressed, magnesium is
00:21:11
Speaker
great, for example, adaptogens, ashwagandha is a great ingredient, but also rhodiola rosea, which has great clinicals. So these are the kind of ingredients we're using in our products and they really make up the core business. There is a side of the business that number one category is like actually multivitamins. It's something that we're not really working in very much because we do think it's a very saturated space. And quite frankly, if you can eat healthily, I would encourage you to do so first.
00:21:39
Speaker
prior to considering a multivitamin. What's your best selling product? So we have this digestive enzyme called flatter me and it's incredible because it works so quickly. And that's why it's our best seller. People see results after only one use. And it helps you if you think about it, you know,
00:21:57
Speaker
As you age, your digestive enzymes deplete actually, and this helps you break down the foods. And foods have become more and more complicated, especially processed foods. And again, in America, if you look at what the typical consumer eats, there's a lot of processed foods ingredients that, in my opinion, shouldn't be there. And they make them really hard to digest. What this product does, it makes you help break down the food more easily. You absorb the nutrients better, but also you bloat less. You feel better.
00:22:24
Speaker
And that's our best seller because it works so quickly. And that's one of the products that we had in clinical research. And the research was really cool, actually. If you don't mind me explaining what we did to actually show that the product works very quickly. We recruited several people, I think it was between 20 and 30, you have to double check the number. And then they would go into a lab and get a piece of pizza. Prior to eating the pizza, they would take either a placebo or flatter meat, the product.
00:22:52
Speaker
then the same person would come back to the lab two weeks later. If they had gotten the placebo in the first instance, they would get flatter me. If they had flatter me, they would get a placebo. It's called a crossover clinical trial. So the same person is then measured. We looked at their bloating, for example, how they felt. So we had objective criteria such as like waist size and how much you bloat after eating. And we saw after only one use,
00:23:16
Speaker
a statistical significance difference in those people who actually took Vladimir versus those that took a placebo. So that's the kind of studies we're doing to really show how quickly the products work. And that was really an incredible result, which is why I would argue one of our top sellers because it works so quickly and the results are so strong.
00:23:38
Speaker
All right, so are you coming to Reunion? You can bring a few of those, so we sample them after the heavy meal that you're planning to have. No, you have to take them before you have dinner, so I'll hand them out prior to supper. I'm not sure yet. Are they funky color? No, it's like
00:24:00
Speaker
I'll show you here if you want to see it, basically. I don't think we're filming this, but it's a very natural color. We don't use any funky stuff in our ingredients. And they're quite small as well. Can you see that? Yeah. There you go. All right. Well, if you come, please bring... We'll test it. How many? So now it's 147 classmates registered. So we
Business Partnership Insights
00:24:24
Speaker
can increase your sample dramatically.
00:24:30
Speaker
Jokes aside, we are speaking vitamins but of vitamins, but can we also speak about startups and working together as business partners and the challenges of that side of business?
00:24:50
Speaker
As you mentioned, you've been in two ventures together and pretty much you've been together the last 20 years with a minor, with a small break for Pepsi and jeans. But how did you get into being business partners? Let me tell you the story. Happy memories. Long ago now, Walter and I met at Vilsurf
00:25:16
Speaker
which looking back was a hotbed of entrepreneurial ideas from our year. Absolutely. We've all heard about El Almo and the Potato Garden on your previous podcast. Yeah.
00:25:27
Speaker
But Walter and I were neighbours in Vilsaaf. In fact, he didn't like me to begin with because I booked the house, reserved it about 10 minutes before he had. He'd travelled all the way from Germany or New York even where he was before to try and book this house. I had somehow snuck ahead by about 10 minutes, so he was a bit hacked off about that.
00:25:49
Speaker
We fortunately made up and became great friends at the campus. And I think we both quite quickly realized that we were interested in running our own business together one day. And so we used to sit there with a glass of wine and talk about different businesses that we might do. And I think that the whole idea of working together was definitely hatched on those drives to and from Vilsurf and at Vilsurf itself.
00:26:14
Speaker
And then there was definitely, I mean, I remember when we were talking about the vitamin water business, we had a couple of other ideas as well. And I think right after we left, there was a bit of tension because we were both interviewing for a few other jobs. And I think we both secretly didn't really want the upper one to get offered another job and they would have made it much easier. And then after a few weeks, we said, look, let's just commit to the vitamin water business. And we did that.
00:26:38
Speaker
went on from there. I'm so glad that we did actually. I think it's a very special relationship to have a business partner for many, many years. They know
00:26:50
Speaker
your real working life from it's a very unique perspective. It's not the same as having a report or having a boss. It's not the same as having a life partner. It is different because you're on equal level and then you have so many of the same meetings, you have so many of the same decisions. So it is like sharing an amazing journey with someone which I love.
00:27:13
Speaker
You know, one has difficult days, difficult weeks. It's nice to share problems with people. It's nice to share successes with one's business partner, with Walter. I think it's a really amazing experience, actually, which...
00:27:26
Speaker
I'm delighted to have had. I feel very lucky about it. I guess one of the dangers we're discussing is, yes, then we are thinking one of the dangers might be if you're too similar, you could sort of create blind spots where you could go into a sort of crude think. I don't think I think we are quite similar in many respects, but not so similar that that has happened. But now it's been great. What do you think?
00:27:50
Speaker
How do you, how do you decide who does what? Like one is the marketing guru, the other was, uh, is the CFO or like, how do you distribute? I bring in the money and Chris keeps it. All right. Yeah.
00:28:16
Speaker
I oversee marketing, branding and digital, like, you know, all our direct consumer business. And then Chris overseas, our wholesale business, which includes places like Target, Amazon, which is now a growing channel for us, and then the operational and financial side as well. But the majority of the business is still direct consumer. And you mentioned that it was
00:28:39
Speaker
different with the first venture? Yeah, the first venture was who looks after finance. I had no idea why. I can't remember now. Well, you did a very good job. But anyway, I've ended up with this on the hub nutrition side. I mean, you know, I think that
00:28:56
Speaker
We learned a lot of good lessons from the V water, from the vitamin water days. We were just thinking about that. We exited the business to Pepsi quite quickly, I think after four years. What are the lessons? I was just thinking of two. One is attention to detail on the shelf.
00:29:16
Speaker
We were, we learned very quickly that you could grab an enormous amount of space in the delis. If you send in a merchandising team and you took other brands literally took the bottles off the shelf and you put your bottles in that place with merchandising signs, it worked very, very well.
00:29:32
Speaker
develop a sales force you want to run london on little best to do exactly that that was one thing which which we learned i said the other thing is serendipity i mean business was growing we're in a good space but we didn't know that could i was gonna buy the leading vitamin water brand in america. We didn't know that something is gonna become a very very hot category in the uk and in europe and i would then leave it to become
00:30:00
Speaker
very sought after as a brand by some of the last drinks companies in the world. So I think that when you start something, you can develop a bit of luck. You know, you develop opportunities and things that you wouldn't have known were going to start when you began the business. And I think that would be one of my big learnings.
00:30:20
Speaker
And production, production is a complicated thing. And were you producing or you were outsourcing the production of the water? And then now do you produce or you? On both businesses, we've outsourced production. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, I think it's, there are many, many advantages of doing that. I'm a big, big fan of outsourcing production in the startups in the in the early years of businesses for sure.
00:30:48
Speaker
Well, also like in our space, it's very complicated, right? We offer capsules, soft gels, gummies, powders, and F of essence. And each of those require completely different approaches in manufacturing and know how, and there's absolutely no way you as a brand can develop those skills in the house and scale the business simultaneously. So I do think working with the right manufacturing partner is critical. I actually want to diversify that as well as something that we did early on. So we always had a full back plan.
00:31:16
Speaker
We're based in California, so we always have to say, hey, what happens if there's an earthquake, for example, right? Or like a massive fire that runs down the factory. So having backups in place is part of just our risk management approach regardless. But then during COVID, it became very obvious that having a backup in supply chain was critical to success because we scaled very quickly during the pandemic. But simultaneously, it was very hard to get a hold of certain ingredients, for example.
00:31:45
Speaker
certain plants were shut down, like one of our products concludes and includes a cranberry extract that's made in France, that French factory shut down, I think it was for six months or something like that. So obviously, all the stock was depleted very quickly, then having backup, you know, ingredient manufacturers for those was critical as well. So a lot of complexities.
00:32:05
Speaker
to encounter when you do outsource. But I think it's the best approach. But at the same time, you want to have backups for each of your partners because something can go wrong as it did during the pandemic. And from all the learnings, well, before I go into the learnings a bit more on the water and then Pepsi, how did you survive any time in a corporate environment? I'm just curious how the water said
00:32:36
Speaker
You didn't survive as long. Yeah, Walter left quite soon. Started the low cost gym business. Now I actually, I have to admit, I found it, I found doing the Vwater business and the wholesale very stressful. And I found working for a big company for a few years actually suited me at that time of my life. I learned a lot about how a big manufacturing and brand company works.
00:33:04
Speaker
It didn't have the endless ups and downs of one's own business, which I have to say at that time was right for me. After a few years, I think I realized that I wasn't going to be the absolute Pepsi star and end up running the company. And I was delighted when Walter came out with an idea of a big adventure and moving to the west coast of America, start hub nutrition. But at the time, it actually suited me well for a few years.
00:33:33
Speaker
I'm always curious because there's such different animals, right? Being in your own thing, being your own boss and then going in a big corporate. But learning is a big advantage as well. I think there's an illusion out there too that being your own boss is like...
00:33:50
Speaker
Freedom you know the truth is we have to motivate and mobilize, we have investors that we report to, there's a lot of stakeholders that you actually have to take into account and quite frankly, when you are your own boss, you know that
00:34:09
Speaker
You can work 24 seven if you want to. And that's a big challenge because you know, it goes straight into, obviously into this equity and increases your shareholder value. And you're one of the main shareholders here, which is fantastic. But the flip side is like, where do you draw the boundaries? How do you do this for not just a day or a year, but like a decade in our case, or even two decades. And I always say running your own businesses, like a marathon at the speed of a sprint. So it is quite.
00:34:39
Speaker
Put it is like, luckily, we both have a lot of energy, but you also have to make sure you maintain that energy and nurture those, you know, moments to take a break from the business because it is very intense. And I do think like, you know, we often talk about the successes and this and that, but I mean, quite frankly, you're dealing with more failures and successes than from the outside. People see the success, of course, the growth that people know the brand and you're like these great shops and
00:35:04
Speaker
you were on television suddenly and like you have the news and you know all these wonderful things but behind the scenes i mean you really have to deal i would say with two things which are very stressful number one the amount of decisions you have to make on a daily basis that have huge impacts on the business is quite big actually i mean it like it's it you have to be really really quick and really think through on those
00:35:27
Speaker
on a constant basis plus you don't have the social safety net attached to the business like if the business goes bust we're not too big to fail you know we're a bust basically i think it's something else to keep in mind and then last but not least because you can work so hard and so demanding your mental health is under constant stress so it really isn't in my opinion for the sort of like faint hearted but then you also have to do something about your mental health
00:35:51
Speaker
What I realized early on is it's a very lonely space to do it, because there are very few people who do this, right? Like they can share, like if you're in a big corporation, you may have a team that understands what's going on here, like, you know, in a quite unique position. Luckily, I have Christopher, which really helps with mental health, but also I have a coach, always had coaches.
00:36:13
Speaker
Which are really helpful because those are kind of things that people overlook and i think it's good to have this independent perspectives talk things through in a structured way and then you know learn from those coaches and how to be better leader.
00:36:29
Speaker
especially with all the things we have been confronted with over the past years. I mean, just the journey here in Los Angeles has been incredibly intense. We came here under Obama, then there's a Trump presidency. We had riots where the military was everywhere. I still remember sitting on my balcony with helicopters flying by, with soldiers and machine guns. Roads were blocked.
00:36:55
Speaker
you know, buildings were lit up or, you know, it was absolutely intense. We had COVID where, you know, I mean, everybody had COVID so they were not unique in that sense, but then we had the wildfires where you couldn't see the sky for a couple of weeks too, right? And on top of that, we had like big social moments or big societal moments.
00:37:16
Speaker
like Black Lives Matter, that we had an opinion on and that we participated in as an organization. So all these things are in addition to leading the company, doing your strategy, doing your business plan, doing the marketing, et cetera. So you have to understand there's a lot of moving pieces and there is absolutely no safety net deep down, especially not in America. So you're walking on this rope.
00:37:42
Speaker
with a river full of alligators below you, and you're doing a dance, basically. So that's how I see it. And you can do that by having a great business partner, but also by having coaches, for example, which I highly recommend to others. I think it's a very beneficial exercise to hire a coach.
00:37:57
Speaker
finding a good one. And then obviously, also, I think the reason why we have the energy and why we do what we're doing is like, we're in this space where we bring a lot of happiness and joy and health and wellness to the consumer, which is really rewarding, you know, I think that's what's so powerful, where you really are in touch with the consumer, you can innovate, and you can listen to that, so we can move quickly, you can get in front of them, you need those consumers. And that's exciting, because you really have an impact.
00:38:23
Speaker
what you're doing so those are the things i think i need to talk about in general it's like this of course the subway you know glossy appearance from vietnamese world but inside it's it's it's a very intense space but i love meeting other found this i'm exchanging ideas there i'm depending on the industry within the beauty industries were so half beauty half how the world is almost because we have bits of its intersection
00:38:48
Speaker
And it's really fun to meet other founders and see how their journey went and learn from them and partner with them. So that's something I find very exciting. So all in all, because it started to sound very scary, but all in all, would you recommend having your own business? More upside or more downside?
00:39:11
Speaker
Well, you know, it's always a balance, right? But I think if you have an idea that you feel passionate about, and you want this to happen, that's, and you see it unfold, it's very rewarding. I would say it's extremely rewarding. If you're looking for stability, I would say
00:39:30
Speaker
And you're more concerned about like you know let's say you have kids in school and or college and you have big bills to pay etc and that is a big concern of yours i would consider it. Because quite frankly it's it can be very fast and there's lots of ups and downs.
00:39:48
Speaker
that not only you obviously go through, it's like we're all humans and we're in a relationship, our partners live through that as well. And I think taking them into the account for the decision making is very important. Luckily, both Chris and I have very supportive partners, but it should be a decision that everybody makes together and feels good about, as opposed to like, no, I'm going to do this on my own and I'm going to be the next rock star, you know, muck Zuckerberg or Elon Musk, whatever it is, basically.
00:40:16
Speaker
I would recommend it to those who feel strongly about an idea, who have something that they think they can bring to the world and need an impact, because you really make an impact. You make an impact to the consumer, you make an impact to an industry by innovating, you make an impact to the people you hire, like the amount of people that we brought together in the team, the culture we build is incredible. And I feel very proud of that, right? So that's the kind of things like you truly make an impact. And that's the exciting part.
00:40:45
Speaker
On the flip side, there's not much stability when you actually build a business, especially in those early days. Yeah. Chris, anything more for me? Oops, Chris. No, I think that's, I agree with all of that. All right. So, and just
Scaling the Business
00:41:00
Speaker
to wrap it up here, can you give us a few numbers? I know that you are not a public company.
00:41:07
Speaker
Number how big is the team or you said 2 million subscribers? How many customers do serve any numbers that you want to throw as well as I would love to know how much capital have you raised in total? Between the different ventures. So again, we are not disclosing
00:41:24
Speaker
any secrets. We can mention how much we raised for this company. There's no profit also. We raised slightly north of $20 million for our nutrition. In several rounds, there was sort of like, you know, in the beginning Chris and I put a little bit of money in to get it going. Then there was sort of like Series C and Series A and Series B. The Series B was $15 million, I believe. The Series A was about $5 million and the Series C was like, I think a million or $2 million. So slightly north of $2 million.
00:41:52
Speaker
The team is around 70 people right now. We do not share revenue numbers, et cetera. We're a private company, but it gives you a bit of a setup size of the team and the kind of operation that we're running.
00:42:06
Speaker
All right. And let's switch to INSEAD and the INSEAD connection as well as giving back. So obviously the first INSEAD connection is you met at INSEAD and you are sitting not next to each other, but you are in the same section, right? Even. And in the same house or neighborhood. But what other INSEAD connections can you mention there?
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, we've got lots of them in and I honestly think that we have profited from the NCI connections almost more than anybody else. Apart from what you've mentioned, when we raised money for V water, we wanted to raise some seed capital. And we, I remember sitting in London with Walter, we got the inside alumni book, it was a big book at the time.
00:42:54
Speaker
And we went through every single person living in London who looked like they might want to give us some money. And we had a list of about 200 people, and we emailed them all on one evening. A very good little note, sounding like we were starting a business and would they like to support it in the earlier stages. We got probably about 30 different replies, set of people saying that they were interested to have a meeting, to see our deck. And we raised our seed money
00:43:22
Speaker
largely through INSEAD alums to get the Vwater business off the ground. Fortunately, we got the emails out very quickly because we then got about a week later an email from somebody from INSEAD saying that we'd broken some rules and we shouldn't have contacted alumni to raise money. The good news was that we'd already had several meetings, so we apologized and moved on. So I think there's a real lesson on acting quickly.
00:43:47
Speaker
So a lot of our seed investors were in SEAD, two of our board members of VWater were also in SEAD.
00:43:55
Speaker
When we sold the business, we later, after the acquisition had been done, we later found out that the head of mergers and acquisitions of Pepsi had also been at INSEAD. None
Impact of INSEAD Connections
00:44:05
Speaker
of us had known that at the time, but it was another nice link. And several of our INSEAD original investors have continued to support us with the hub nutrition business in Los Angeles. I mean, it's been a very, very big theme throughout our working life post INSEAD for sure.
00:44:24
Speaker
And you mentioned when we spoke the Realizing Entrepreneurial Potential, I think you mentioned Tim Bovard and right as an inspiration. We were both very inspired by that course called Realizing Entrepreneurial Potential run by Michael Ullman and Tim Bovard.
00:44:44
Speaker
I mean, it was an extraordinary course. I remember it that you had to pick a company that was a real company that was for sale. They had these kind of lists rather like you'd look to buy a flat or something. They had these lists of companies for sale and we rang them up and asked for all the particulars and send you that P&L and that cash flow.
00:45:03
Speaker
that balance sheet and we had to make a pitch to buy the company and say how we'd turn it around. I'm very inspired by this. Michael and Tim asked along a lot of interesting entrepreneurs, a lot from London came who had started interesting companies. And I personally found that very inspiring actually. I met people who had done it and it made it real.
00:45:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very well.
Giving Back to INSEAD
00:45:28
Speaker
And with regards to giving back, you both are donors to INSEAD. How do you think about giving back in general and then INSEAD?
00:45:39
Speaker
Well, the best way I've given back is, and I know Walter has as well, is the interviews. We regularly interview people who are interested in going to in Seattle. In America, it's very important that those interviews are done properly because it's different. If you're living in Europe, in Seattle will clearly be the top choice.
00:46:00
Speaker
When you're in America, you're competing against Harvard Business School, all the big business schools, all the Ivy League ones in the States. So you actually have to sell INSEAD to the candidates, to the good candidates, unlike you would have to do if you were working in Europe. So I think that's a way that we've given back a lot. And I know that we've both sent a whole number of very good candidates over from the West Coast of America to INSEAD over the last 10 years. Anything else from you to add?
00:46:28
Speaker
The general giving back piece is like if you meet other entrepreneurs, for example, helping them out is very important to us. You meet them early on in their journey. And they're sort of like almost like a rule of, I would say an unspoken rule, where it's like you take the meetings, even if your days are incredibly busy, and then you listen to what they have to say and connect them with people that could be beneficial to them. Of course, you know, if you think that's the right choice, of course,
00:46:57
Speaker
but also like with initiatives like in diversity, that's something that's important to us as a brand. We have a very diverse team and I think at INSEAD the students, the student body was very diverse too, which I think is wonderful. After that in London, it's a very diverse city and we brought a bit of that culture here into abolition as well, where we really look at numbers,
00:47:20
Speaker
throughout the entire organization and we don't do it in a way of like having just ticking the boxes but just making sure that all the voices of society are truly represented within your team not just like you know set the patterns but throughout the organization and then you know we do a lot of work with communities
00:47:40
Speaker
that may not have access to education around nutrition or have not had proper resources. We actually hand out scholarships as a company to students in the field of nutrition who would like to become a nutritionist or an RD. It's an organization called Diversified Dietetics where we saw real underrepresentation of certain groups
00:48:05
Speaker
including Black and Hispanic students. There's a lot of disconnect between messaging and the communities because nobody within those communities
00:48:16
Speaker
is involved in the messaging of these organizations. So that's work that we're doing. And I think it's also a result of INSEAD's, you know, incredible diversity that then translated into like Hans diversity. And I'm really proud of like, you know, how the entrepreneurial spirit has lost also like the outlook when it comes to like, including different perspectives, new decision making, which is incredibly rewarding. All right, so I think that that covers
00:48:47
Speaker
a lot of what I wanted to cover. I can keep on talking, but then the clock is ticking. So I'd switch to the quick, the last bit, the quick round of questions if you are ready. And I don't know if you decided, if you take turns or you both answer. So let's see, we improvise. So let me, you ready? Can I go? Go for it. Proudest achievement. Number one, Brandon Sephora. Success for you is?
00:49:15
Speaker
When everyone I love is happy and healthy. Happiness is? Your picture taken by Eddie Leibovitz. Okay, biggest regret. Not playing more golf at INSEAD. Okay, well you have a chance now, so have a think. You can take that flight, I know that. What keeps you awake at night? Some small business issue that goes around and around in my head.
00:49:45
Speaker
The solution is you have to have a pad of paper and a pencil by your bed. Then you quickly write it down so you don't forget it. And then you go to sleep. Good idea. Any additions there? All right. So the next question we should have known or someone had told you. I think it would be good advice when you start a business, you offer a service or product to really have good margins.
00:50:12
Speaker
Often people think you scale the business, you get economies of scale, and things will magically improve. But I think if your foundation is really healthy, then you have enough capital to reinvest in growth. You become profitable fast, you're not reliant on outsized capital, et cetera. So I do think a focus on margin is really good advice to any entrepreneur out there. OK. And if you had to do it again, what would you change? Would you change anything? Business personal. I think maybe we would have
00:50:42
Speaker
Maybe I would have gone into mass distribution a little bit faster. That's the only thing I can think of. Okay. Retirement, ever or never?
00:50:52
Speaker
Well, you know, I like to be busy, but I'm really excited to retire at one point, to be honest. That's been quite intense, but I always do something. So no doubt, even after we saw, you know, B-water went troubling for a couple of months and after I left Pepsi, but then I, you know, I was on the beach thinking, okay, what am I going to do next? What else can I do? Change, innovate, et cetera. So there will always be something. The question is like the scale of which I will operate, you know, down the line.
00:51:18
Speaker
All right. If you had to pick one book, everyone should read. I thoroughly recommend the Walter Isaacson book on Steve Jobs, which I know it came out several years ago, but it's an amazing book about an amazing life. And it really brings, it really paints an amazing picture of Silicon Valley in the 1970s. And you walk away admiring the man, although it must have been incredibly difficult to work for.
00:51:49
Speaker
But it's a great book, the fact that the author has just written a new book on Elon Musk, which is coming out next month, which I'm looking forward to reading. And you have a pick or? Sorry, I couldn't hear. What do you say? Do you have a pick as well for a book? I think Animal Farm is a good one because it really teaches you about power and how people behave. I think that's really like, you know, most people can't handle power, in my opinion.
00:52:13
Speaker
And it's very timely to reread it these days, right? All right, most admired public person. I really like Mother Teresa and I'll tell you why. She told us that if you are against something, you're still putting your energy towards that. So let's say you're anti-war, you're anti-this, you're anti-that, you may be anti-politician or anti-you're still putting your energy towards that.
00:52:39
Speaker
person and what that cause. So instead be pro-peace. So to be for something as opposed to be anti-something, I think it's a very valuable lesson. How you feel about it. I think it really triggers the right emotions. You know, you really channel your, I think your energy in the right direction. I think that was a really incredible lesson and she really dedicated her life to like, you know, really helping out the poor.
00:53:06
Speaker
And I find it extremely inspiring. I know there's a question about the most despite. I don't want to answer those questions because I think it's again, it's against my mantra. You see, I'm saying I don't have anybody at the spot. It's deep down. So for me, it's really about being for something and putting energy there as opposed to having, you know, those, I would say thoughts that bring everybody down and yourself included. So that's how I think and operate.
00:53:32
Speaker
All right. And from seeing Chris nod, I take it this is your joint answer. So I don't expect a different answer from Chris or you have. All right. Well, fully subscribed to the same answer. Yeah.
00:53:48
Speaker
All right, so tell me now who's coming to Reunion? Last question. That's the last, last question. TBD. Honestly, there's so much going on. It's really hard. I know we're inching closer and closer to the date. I would love to come. It's looking unlikely at this stage, but maybe I can figure it out. How about you, Christopher?
00:54:09
Speaker
I'm not coming. I'm very sad. I'm going to stay here, but I am going to come to the 25th in 2028. You can put me in already, Milena. I'll see everyone there. We have it on the record, so you're the first one. You already signed up. Very good.
00:54:27
Speaker
All right, so that was it. And now, even though you heard their names a few times, I can finally make it official and say that this was Chris. These
Conclusion and Guest Acknowledgment
00:54:37
Speaker
were Chris and Walter of Hum Nutrition. And they called in from LA. And thank you so much for your time. And have a great day. Milena, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed it. Keep humming, Milena, OK? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks.
00:54:55
Speaker
You were listening to the Republic of India 20 years later or 3D podcast edition. It is my hope to remind everyone what an interesting and dare I say colorful bunch of people we are and how much we can contribute to each other, be it through ideas, knowledge or mere inspiration. The podcast is inspired by the original Republic of India, the yearbook produced on paper 20 years ago by Oliver Bradley and team.
00:55:22
Speaker
Thank you Ollie and team for this contribution to our class's memory and for letting me continue in the tradition, title and inspiration included. Creator and author of the Republic of Instia 20 Years Later O3D Podcast Edition, MI Milena Ivanova. Original music by Peter Dondakov with help from their film's productions. Stay tuned for more and remember to book your tickets for the 20 year reunion in Fontainebleau October 6th, 8th, 2023. Thank you for listening.