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Stomping Ground - Lindsay Astarita: Sensory, Quality Control and Beer Judging
638 Plays3 months ago
Lindsay has developed the sensory and quality program at a brewery that has a happy knack of winning major trophies. The tale of how she ended up in that position, after years spent travelling the world seeking out good beer wherever she went, is an excellent one. She's about to head back to her home country, the US, so we needed to get her on quickly. As with many of the ongoing series on the main website, we're keen to use the podcast as a platform to shine a light on people in all parts of the beer world, not just owners or founders. And, as a mutual friend from outside the beer world put it, Lindsay is a superstar.
So, following our debut episode with Sailors Grave, here she is as the star of the second show.
Our chat with Lindsay features insights into how installing quality programs can help breweries produce consistently great beer, the importance of beer education, and the day in the life of a beer judge – as well as Lindsay's personal journey from beer-loving traveller working front of house to someone who's just landed a gig judging at this year's Great American Beer Festival.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Milestone
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CraftyPint podcast. I'm Will. I'm James and we've made it to episode two. Who'd have thought against all odds? Took us a long time to get to episode one, but here we are with episode two, just a week later. How amazing. um Yeah, thanks everyone who has got in touch since we put it out episode one with Sailor's Grave last week. and We've had, ah you know, without blowing one's own trumpet, we've had amazing feedback and not just from my mum. Even friends of mine who would never like, you know, say anything nice, even if you bribed them and were being in touch saying how.
00:00:41
Speaker
how well they thought it went, which is great. So again, thank you to and Matt, our um superstar producer and editor. um Yeah, it's been off off off to a good start. Thanks again to Chris and Gav for being such great guests.
Podcast Ranking Achievements
00:00:53
Speaker
And I mentioned to you earlier, Will, we actually shot to number one in the Apple Podcasts, Leisure and Hobbies charts. There we go. We're destroying all these four wheel driving sort of fishing podcasts, or that might be under sport. I'm not sure actually. I'm not quite sure how it works with their favours early on, but apparently we were ranked number 209 of all podcasts in Australia. So as long as there's not 210. It's a good start. Off to off a flyer. um But yeah, so. Yeah. So we're recording a little early this week because you're about to head off.
00:01:28
Speaker
I'm about almost said overseas but WA is a long way away. It is a long way away, yeah no I'm off to WA, first um work trip of the year I think actually, it's been a funny old
Will's Upcoming Trip and Plans
00:01:39
Speaker
year. Over there for the indies on Friday and the WA beer and brewing conference, hosting a couple of panels at the conference, i'm doing a couple of events, we'll record a couple of podcasts as well, one with found brewing and then also one with Callum Reeves the co-founder of Kaiju who's now also the chair of the IBA so we'll grab him the day after the indies because everyone loves getting on camera the morning after a beer awards for a chat about this year's indies about his new role with the IBA and I guess about excise tax as well so we've come around to the
00:02:13
Speaker
second hike of the year so um yeah I guess putting more pressure on brewers so we'll see what he has to say from an IBA perspective on that.
Lindsay Asterita's Journey in Beer Industry
00:02:23
Speaker
Speaking of awards this week's guest is Lindsay Asterita who's head of quality at Stomping Ground. ah She's it's got a really good story to tell it's really exciting for you to hear it she goes through how to build a quality program and her own career which is really interesting and also judging peer education and all this really important work that she's been doing in the Australian beard landscape for the last decade or so. yeah And I think it's great to get some insight into how beard judging takes place before people you know see the awards or the results come out on Friday, Saturday. It sounds like quite a glorious thing to do, but I think it's a pretty dedicated process to go through to taste 70 or 80 beers a day back to back. But yeah, so we'll have a chat to her about her global travels that brought her to Melbourne and took her from front to house to yeah setting up a a quality program and now being a
00:03:13
Speaker
i globally um really have um taken it from uh front of house to uh setting up the sensory program and the quality program at stomping ground and becoming a a beer judge and actually since we've chatted to Lindsay um A week or so ago, she we fact discovered that she also landed a gig at the great American beer festival judging in Denver this year, so that's awesome for Lindsay.
Deeds Brewing and Taproom Reopening
00:03:37
Speaker
um And in terms of latest news, you've been chatting to one of the founders of Deeds Brewing with some pretty interesting news.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, big, big news. So people may have already seen the articles on the Crafty Pine. You can check it out there, but deeds, they announced they were winding up a little while ago and now they have reopened the taproom and they plan to brew some more beers. It's it's not really a long-term thing. It's more about ensuring their staff get their entitlements paid out. So it's a really interesting story, really nice sort of farewell, I think as well, potentially. People seem to be really excited about it. So yeah, that's, just shows what a rollercoaster of a year we're on. that I don't think anyone was expecting this news and you know there's still also the possibility as well that someone could buy the brewery too. I mean the venue's been up for sale sometimes so who knows what the future holds. So there's a few limited releases that were planned before the period of voluntary administration they're going to bring back. yeah The tap room will open maybe with some other breweries beers on for a period of time as well and if you're keen to get your hands on some barrels of imperial stout. um They have rather a lot of those as well, so and they're looking for a new home for um for those as well. But yeah, I guess it kind of is in keeping with the chaotic and nature yeah of this year in
Launch of 'The Village' Collaboration
00:04:57
Speaker
beer. um And there was also some more sort of upbeat news relating to breweries and venues last week with Wildflower and Mountain Culture.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, so they've launched the village together at Wildflower's home in Marrickville. You know, it's it's not a merger or an acquisition or anything like that. It's more just mates working together. The families are very close. So Wildflower will sell mountain culture beers in the inner west. Mountain culture will do likewise in the Blue Mountains. It kind of gives them the opportunity. They're very distinct breweries. So it's probably not that much cannibalization going on. So it seems like a pretty, yeah, it's another cool move or interesting move to watch. Yeah, yeah and i it it's yeah a different form of consolidation in the beer industry, I guess. um and yeah I think the eagle-eyed or regular businesses to Wildflower would have known something was going on earlier in the year with more taps going in and mountain culture on tap and umbrellas and stuff outside. But yeah, i mean I think it's positive for both of them and positive for beer lovers in the Blue Mountains and um in Sydney. I wonder if we might see more of this kind of thing over time.
00:06:01
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense. I'm trying to trying to think of a like-for-like comparison. There aren't really that many. I mean, there's, you know, kitchens that are separate from the breweries and things like that, but it's a pretty different approach. Yeah, for sure.
Point Break Invitational Discussion
00:06:15
Speaker
And as for later in the show, I understand we may have an appearance from one of your old friends, Milo, again. well Milo is back i to talk about the Point Break Invitational, so thank you, Blackmans, again, for sponsoring the show. Listen out for that. We didn't get much feedback on the ad, but I'd like to hear some. Yeah, what we think of our our friendly gossip columnist. But anyway, I think we should get straight into the show and get to our chat with Lindsay. Yeah, enjoy the chat. Cheers.
00:06:46
Speaker
Lindsay, welcome to the Crafty Vine podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having
Lindsay on Quality at Stomping Ground
00:06:50
Speaker
me. Yeah, pretty good. Excellent. Now, do you want to explain to us a little bit about what you actually do, what your role is in beer these days? Yes, um so I work for Stomping Ground Brewing in Collingwood. um And I run the, I would say the quality department. um So there's a couple different aspects of this role, which encompass all things quality. So there's a sensory program that we um have instilled in our company and we use for um quality control with all of our products, as well as new product development and
00:07:25
Speaker
evaluating research and development trials. And then there's the lab aspect, which is more quantifying certain um chemical compounds and things that you might want to quantify or alcohol or anything like that. And so you're very much based in the brewery. Yes. And are you a brewer as well? I'm not a brewer, but I'm a brewery staff member. Yeah. um And I have done some brews. I would do a couple on like the R and&D trial kit and stuff like that. um And I've studied some brewing science as well. um But I don't, I'm not on the tools every day.
00:08:04
Speaker
And sensory would be the whole team coming together, what to check everyone's online with a sensory or to get feedback on a product or? So sensory the way that we have at work at our brewery. And this is something that I've taken from um multiple other people in the industry, whether from Australia or the US. I feel like people in the sensory field are very open with their advice on how to structure things like this. Um, and the way that I structured at our company is essentially, um, we use an app called draft lab, which is an American app and it makes it extremely easy to run sensory in multiple different, um, food production type facilities. They've got, um, you know, kombucha focused one, um, beer focused one, obviously. Um, and it was developed by, um, a person that actually also named Lindsay from the U S uh, Lindsay bar. So she developed that and she used to work for new Belgium.
00:08:59
Speaker
um, in product development and stuff like that. But I'm a big, um, yeah, I love this program because basically it makes it really panel facing. So essentially what we do is Tuesdays and Wednesdays are or Tuesdays and Thursdays every week are our sensory days and it's based on our production schedule. So we put every batch through sensory as like a go no go sort of thing. Um, and what that means is every brand is defined. in terms of how it should be appearing or presenting visual aroma, flavor, taste, and mouthfeel. And that's all stored in the the database of that app. And if it's NOGO, it's rebranded as a limited release? It's usually saved for gabs. How often are you finding like NOGO beers? Is it um common in a commercial brewery? or Yeah. i mean
00:09:56
Speaker
It
Sensory Program and Brand Definition
00:09:57
Speaker
definitely depends, really. And this is why we use the the consensus of a large group of people rather than four people who work in the production team that are ultimately biased because they know exactly what's happened to that batch. um And that's why we put, you know if there's ever a flag batch or an aging stock batch or a batch of something that, you know something went a bit awry. um We test it with other members of the um of all of the departments that work for us. So we don't, we encourage every every person to participate in the sensory program. It's not just focused on people who have beer knowledge because everything's put into plain words in terms of the description of how that brand should be presenting. So anyone should be able to go in and say, yes, I can taste pineapple, or yes, I can taste clove. And if there's clove in the pale ale, then that's a problem type thing. So um yeah, in terms of that sort of no go,
00:10:56
Speaker
situation, it really depends on how high the risk is, I think. um But we gauge that on a situation to situation. And how much of it is down to a sensory within the team and yourself and how much is down to you know actual measurements you might take with tools in the in the brewery? ah I think that it depends on what you're focusing on. um There's certain things that we can't test for in our lab setup, because a lot of that equipment is quite exciting. And so we would fit base that decision on a sensory thing. But sometimes if I'm testing something and it comes back high, we would be we would flag that batch and then be
00:11:41
Speaker
quite um just really pay attention to what people say when they evaluate it because the non-biased people don't know that that's been flagged. Do breweries sometimes, if someone has the right equipment, you need to test something? Is there a bit of sharing of knowledge and equipment? yeah okay Helpful when you're brewing in Collingwood. Honestly, weve we have a really good relationship with CUB. There's a couple of people there um who have been really, really helpful to us in terms of sensory and in terms of lab. So we've got really good relationship with them. Um, and they've helped us a lot. We've also worked on like on a, um, research and development project for IBD convention with, um, Melinda who works in the lab there, uh, where she's on the board for IBD and we kind of, um, we did the sensory part myself and my, um, previous colleague Collette. Um, we did a sensory panel and they did all the analyticals yeah and then we compared them and presented the whole thing. So yeah, it's really nice to have that sort of relationship with community breweries, whether they're
00:12:42
Speaker
big or small, everyone kind of does help each other out. Yeah, because they've got some serious data knowledge. Yeah. And and but access to all sorts of tools around the world. don't it see youb Yeah, they've got a lot going on there. Yeah, in terms of, um you know, being a small brewery, Stomping Grounds are sort of medium sized, craft independent brewery, like, if you're a tiny brewery, are there sort of things you think a sensory program can't do without? Um, yes, I think that Like in terms of if you're a small brewery and you have a really small team, the best, like the absolute must is define your brands. So if you don't have a debt a defined brand and that's not like who it appeals to in terms, it's more in terms of sensory, like what is this brand? Like the BJCP specific yeah like bjcp style guidelines, yeah like put your brand into that format, visual, what is it? Color, clarity, head retention.
00:13:38
Speaker
um then aroma, any malt characteristics, any hot characteristics, any yeast characteristics, and then flavor and taste, the mouth feel, you have to define every single aspect of that. And so it doesn't matter what it is and what its name is, it's more like, if this is what your beer should be in the ideal form in your head, get it documented and yeah try and hit that every time. Try and hit that every time. um And having like, so setting yourself kind of like, critical control points of tasting as well. Um, so making sure you're doing it that on every batch at certain stages throughout fermentation. Um, and then before packaging or before transferring after carving and then yeah, after you package or keg it as well. So just defining it and then being consistent because quality is good, but if you're not consistent with it, it's, there's no point.
00:14:35
Speaker
Um, in terms of getting into sensory, like how did you end up in this role? Um, I've kind of just. Sidebar, sidebar it in, I guess. Um, I was working in beer kind of, um, and then the first act, like the first. I, um, certification I did was certified Cicerone. Um, that was really like, I guess my, my entry gateway into the craft or the the beer industry. Um, I was working at the local tap house in St. Kilda at the time, which was also owned by Stomping Ground. Um, and yeah, they, that company, the people that I worked with at the time were quite motivating. Um, I already had like a,
00:15:25
Speaker
a spark for craft beer. I was really into Belgian styles at the time. It was great to see, you know, a venue that was bringing in imported stuff and they always had good quality and a seller person and some people doing training and stuff like that. And how long ago was that? how what When did you start at the Tap House? And were you into craft beer before Tap House? I was into craft beer before the Tap House, yeah. Before that I was living in Wellington in New Zealand. um Before Wellington, I was backpacking around in a van type thing, also in New Zealand. And then, yeah, before that, yeah, plenty of good beer there. um And then before that, I was living in the States, but I was also still working in craft beer. Okay. Behind, in hospital. front of house yeah Yeah. And that's New Jersey? um No, that was upstate New York, in Albany. Yeah.
00:16:20
Speaker
um
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, mostly in upstate New York. Yeah. And so the tap pass, was that a case of any left Wellington moved to Australia on on a tourist visa or? Yeah. but again So working holiday. Yeah. Yeah. Which is turned into how long? Um, nine years. Yeah. what like lot Yeah. Uh, came on working holiday. Yeah. Got off the plane, took the sky bus thing to some backpackers on Spencer street and someone had told me in Wellington, oh, you should check out this place, local tap house. Um, so I, I applied for a couple of different jobs. Uh, cookie, very different. Um, they just saw like, Oh, you've bartended in New York. So cool. I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, but it wasn't really my style because it involved. Yeah. Staying up till like five in the morning bartending, which wasn't really my forte. Um,
00:17:22
Speaker
And then the other job I applied for was the local tap house. Rambo hired me. yeah and then I chatted his ear off for about half an hour while I was walking around aimlessly, still in backpacker mode. And then, yeah, that's where it all started. And nine years later, you're running the sensory and quality program and a whole bunch of other things we'll get
Lindsay's Career Progression
00:17:43
Speaker
to as well. Yeah. And and so but but I guess what were the steps from going from working in hospital at the tap house to ending up in the brewery and the sort of training someone might have to do to get if they if they were interested in your sort of role?
00:17:56
Speaker
Okay. Um, yeah. Well, I actually was front of house for a long time because I was on a working holiday visa. Um, I had multiple, multiple jobs. Then I was on a student visa, so I couldn't work full time. And I also had a lot of different random jobs. And then ah eventually I got permanent residency here. in Australia and then I could work full time, but I'd always stayed employed with Stompy Ground because I felt like that's the direction I wanted to go in, something more beer focused. And I had done my certified cicerone and started doing, I think I did some like homebrew beer judging comps as well.
00:18:40
Speaker
And, um, yeah, once I became able to work full-time, I did a bit of front of house managing as well, strangely. Um, and then eventually it was kind of random, really. Like I think I've always been like somebody who's quite, um, like I like sensory experiences. Like I'm quite, I'm always like, Ooh, that smells like that. Or that's an interesting flavor or something like that. Um, but it was really just kind of presented to me at stomping ground, um, by a few people then they were like, Oh, well we've heard, you know, of like quality programs and stuff like that. Um, would you be interested in starting the sensory program? We don't know what one is. Do you want to, do you want to just go for it? Like, I think they had an idea, but pretty much I think at that stage, the only people that were really doing it was Stone and Wood. yeah Um,
00:19:38
Speaker
And probably like CUB and Lion and stuff like that. But a lot of the small breweries didn't have anything going at this stage. And um I know a lot of of a few people from Stomping Ground had taken a trip up to Stone Wood. were really impressed by what they had set up and came back and everyone was like, oh, let's start a sensitive program. Yeah. I was keen. Like I was just like, cause I was like, hi, I'm here. I want to do something. ah I'm interested and I'm like motivated. Uh, not sure exactly what that's going to be, but, um,
00:20:13
Speaker
I had my hands up for something. Yeah. And you've done a past event for us for our beer club, the Crafty Cabal, where we kick came in, I'd look around the brewery and then went through some standard beer faults, that kind of thing. Have you done other consumer stuff as well on bar for Stomping Ground, or is it purely is your job purely focused within the brewery for Stomping Ground? I've done sensory trainings for, um definitely for some of our ah customers as well. um And I did one for William Angles, their food science program. um Yeah, done a fair amount of different sensory things. Lindsay, I was just wondering, with diastole, how come, why do you think no brewers want to admit that they can't taste it?
00:20:59
Speaker
that they can't taste it. oh that they Yeah, that they can't taste it. I feel like it's, yeah. Sorry. Sorry, go on. Oh, okay. Well, Daxtol is one of the ones that is very common to be genetically blind to. Um, so especially with like any sort of sensory thing, I think a large misconception about like muck me or people in a sensory job is that they're like super tasters, but it's not, sensory is not about, um, that person being the best person, the best sensory person, like they're the super taster that can smell everything. It's about having a large group of people making a consensus about one product. um But i don't I don't know. I guess maybe because, yeah, I just don't think people should be self-conscious about that because it's genetic if you can't smell something like that.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting people sort of perceive it as a, I don't know, personal failure. yeah A personal failure, yeah. Sometimes. I definitely think it's something that when you study sensory science, that's something they address straight away is like being um not as perceptive to a certain compound is not your fault. And that's, that's why we have a group consensus. So otherwise, the sensory would just be you. Yeah. Sitting in a room on your own. Yeah, which is not the fact. That's great. Now we might take a quick break and then we'll come back and have a chat about your judging and beer tasting. So yeah, great. Thank you. Sweet. Thank you.
00:22:30
Speaker
G'day listeners, ahead of the point break invitational, we're back to do another beer and film pairing. And once again, I'm joined by the extraordinary and the extravagant, the Bellarine Peninsula's most famous beer writer and gossip columnist, Milo Applebottom. Thank you, William. And it's a pleasure to be back on the podcast. Now, Will, you didn't mention in your intro, but I also write the obituaries. And, you know, for all of us, it's a real reminder that life is just too short for
00:23:05
Speaker
drinking terrible beer and missing out on great beer events, which is why I think you and all of your wonderful listeners should jump onto the internet and snap up some of those tickets to the Blackmans Brewery Point Break Invitational on Saturday the 17th of August. There'll be live music, iconic movies on the screen, some for wonderful beers to be drunk and all sorts of good times to be had. Now speaking of movies, we're back for our next beer and movie pairing. Will, what have you got lined up for us today?
00:23:36
Speaker
So I've picked out a fantastic beer from one of the breweries that will be pouring beers there, Bridge Road Brewers. One of Victoria's oldest craft breweries. And we've got their Kelly Double IPA. It's a mild 8.5%. You know, Kelly IPA is a very crisp, very tropical, very clean. Can be boozy like this one, but still very light on their feet. So, you know, um it's a fantastic beer to watch a movie with, I'd imagine. What do you think about this beer, Milo? Wow, that is incredible. I'm thinking of a ah beautifully choreographed chase scene. You've got all these characters darting in and out, the citrus, the tangerine. There's an explosion of of pineapple, ay followed by a long, bitter road to the very end.
00:24:27
Speaker
What a beer. Oh, what a lovely beer. I think for me, this would be the perfect traveller for George Miller's iconic classic Mad Max Fury Road. Oh, what a film, hey? I'm glad you said that, Milo. That's a great film, a great lengthy film to enjoy with a lengthy beer. And well, that really took me and I hope you as well, William, on a journey. And if you like beer and movies and journeys, why not head down to Torquay for the Point Break Brewery Invitational at Blackmans Brewery on the 17th of August. Tickets are available now and selling very fast, I believe, at blackmansbrewery.com.au. I can't wait to be there. See you there. Cheers. Cheers.
00:25:19
Speaker
Welcome back, Lindsay.
Assessing Beer Quality in Venues
00:25:20
Speaker
and like One of the things I was thinking about is is someone who has to be focused on Stomping Ground's quality and all that kind of thing. I know this is a tricky kind of question, but Stomping Ground's got a lot of, but it's Stompo Pale, like out there in bars and pubs and all that. When you're going out as a punter and like ordering your own beer, you're sort of nervous about how it might taste or you always feel like you're ultra assessing it, or can you just sort of relax and drink the pint? Um, I definitely assess our beers every time I go out. I can definitely switch off with other breweries, but with our beers, um, it's not as easy, but I, in terms of all of our brands, Gipps Street, our pale ale is, um, probably the least fluctuating and I am fairly confident every time we go somewhere that it's going to be in good nick.
00:26:11
Speaker
What happens if you do go into a bar or a pub and it's not in good nick? Will you? you flash your sensory time yeah like i not on the fbi loose and no definitely not definitely not i would um I would just flag it with our rep, a rep who, rep who, um, covers that venue and have them just get in touch with the venue and just make sure that, um, you you know, they're doing stock rotation and stuff like that and just make sure that, you know, they didn't get something. incorrectly. Yeah. None of this. Do you know who I am? No, not now. Yeah. Um, Sargent of Sensory in the Quality Program at Stomping Ground.
Experience in Beer Judging
00:26:50
Speaker
You've also been involved in beer judging. Um, tell us how you got into that and, you know, I guess what it involves really. Um, yes, I've been involved in beer judging. I did at first a couple of, um, Homebrew competitions, um, that I just got involved in through knowing people in the industry.
00:27:09
Speaker
um And then I also have been a judge at the ABA's Australian International Beer Awards and the Indies, which is coming up in two weeks as well in Perth. And yeah, I just really got into it um just by industry connections, I guess. Asher, who's the head brewer of Stomping Ground, has always been really good at putting people forward from his team. um So yeah, Asher always put me forward because I think, I think also, um, yeah, working in a sensory role or quality role or any brewing role where you're tasting things day to day at different stages of fermentation. Um, you really get to know what an off-life risk, like you just really, you're not doing spike training anymore. You're actually smelling sulfur when there's sulfur acetaldehyde, when there's acetaldehyde, diacetol, when there's diacetol type things. So you do get really in tune with that sort of thing.
00:28:08
Speaker
And then, yeah, just kind of kept going and yeah. Do you have to be invited or do you have to go through various stages? like what if someone yeah If someone's out there and is like, I'd love to do that one day, because it does sound pretty glamorous beer judging, and we know there's the hard side to sampling God knows how many beers you do in a day, but yeah what what was the process? It sounds sounds like you may have been sort of fast-tracked through the system because of what you do, but what's the sort of standard process for getting to that point? Uh, I reckon the first thing you would want to do is find a, um, home brew judging competition that Mary Mashers is a really good one, um, which I've done with them before, um, and get in to that so that you start getting acquainted with, um, style guidelines. So there's two different main style guidelines that we use in the brewing industry. BJCP style guidelines is what Cicerone uses and what home brew competitions use. Um, and then brewers association is what most other, um,
00:29:03
Speaker
competitions use. But ah yeah, finding a home brew competition to start judging at because you can get your foot in the door there. And when you apply for another competition, they'll see that you have that experience. um And yeah, really just getting acquainted with different those two specific style guidelines, tasting beers, um while also referencing how they say that beer should be presenting in the guidelines or the brewery themselves. Uh, the guidelines versus the classic example. So you get a classic example, say find, find a check Pilsner, if you can, um, you can download the BJCP style guidelines app on your phone and you can get into that habit of looking at a style guideline and assessing that product and say, whether it is true to target for that.
00:29:52
Speaker
baseline description of the of the product. Going back to Stomping Ground, do they, as the brewing team, try and hit style guidelines for all of their beers? Like you have a check pills man, for example, do you look at the style guidelines and go, we want our check pills to be, you know, banging the center of that? Or is it more, we want it to, we have an idea in our heads and this is how we want it to taste? um It depends on what we're brewing. Yeah. If we're brewing a kind classic style, which we brew a lot of, we aim for the style guidelines. especially because if we're going to be entering that beer into any competition, it needs to fit into the guidelines, which that's also my, my job. I enter which batches and and then go judge them. Yeah. You can't, you can't judge your own views. Can't judge your own views. Um, but yeah, if you're making classes, classic style, you really do want it to fit those guidelines. Otherwise it's yeah, it's not true to target. Um, but if you are doing something a bit more inventive, New Zealand paleo or something with fruit,
00:30:48
Speaker
then yeah, you've got more leniency. In terms of judging over the years, have you noticed how it's changed very much? Like we're always sort of hearing, oh, there's X medals this year and it's more than last year and those kinds of things, but he's sort of in there and you're finding certain you know faults have dropped off or more common or anything like that, like what's coming across your table. Um, I think that when I first started judging, there was definitely more variation in terms of quality, in terms of things like, um, very simply, like clarity. Clarity wouldn't
00:31:21
Speaker
maybe be as bright. I think visual. Do people still make clear beer? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, for a class classic style, you know, like a classic Pilsner or something, Chuck Pilsner, it should be, but should you should be able to see your fingerprints through the glass. So I think the small things like that have, um yeah, definitely gotten better. There's also like less oxidation, um less absolute, like, Dastaw bombs. um So yeah, it's gotten, it's definitely gotten, more tight in terms of quality.
Beer Judging Process and Challenges
00:31:53
Speaker
And think it if someone hasn't judged or, you know, read about or seen them judging before, can you take some what a standard day would be like on on a judging panel, you know, whether it's the Avers or indies or whatever, from, you know, arriving at 839 o'clock in the morning, what does your day look like? Well, it's day after day, I guess. Yeah, so yeah indies is indies is ah usually two days and then one final day.
00:32:17
Speaker
AIA's is a lot longer, so it can be a bit strenuous, but usually you get there, there's a, you find out what table you're on, you look at your other table people, table captain, and you're like, ooh, or yay. You can tell it's afternoon. Actually, no, I think people are really like, in the last couple of years, especially I've found that everyone's like really kind of come together more as a community, and unless there's a little bit less of that, like, You know, I'm the captain type thing. Um, people are, I think everyone's just banded together more as an industry and a community. So it's quite nice to see. Um, but yeah, you find out your table. Then they always use a, they're using like a platform now. So you've got your laptop or an iPad or whatever, and then you can see what you have for the day. Um, and so it'll probably be about 70 to 80 beers all day. Um, and it's broken up into morning, morning tea.
00:33:14
Speaker
another 10 or 20, then lunch, then 10 or 20, afternoon tea, then you finish. um So yeah, 7880 beers. And the table captain kind of will dictate how they come out in succession. They try to make it so that you have your like, your kind of easy drinking stuff first, and then you taper on into the more um pronounced characteristics. Obviously, you don't want to start with an imperial style and then wind up with a no elk after that, because your palate will be Well, it's already gonna be fatigued. that's That's music festival, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um So yeah, it's just going through all those and really what it's focused on is you get you get samples, they're all blind. You know what style it's supposed to be and then you have the guidelines in front of you, Brewers Association usually, um and then you are assessing each sample against the corresponding style guidelines. In silence when you do your first sort of round of sampling or always permanent discussion around the table?
00:34:14
Speaker
So you will go for a block, basically. The table captain will be like, oh, we've got 10 check pills in this to start. Should we get five out, talk talk about them, and then the five another five out and talk about them? Because obviously, you don't want and anything to warm up too much. So you'll go through your first lot, assess them all, and you rate them, I think it's a 20? Yeah, it's 20 points. 20 points. um it's like And then, I forget what it is, broken up, but 15? to 17 is bronze and whatever. And then you have to put notes, very concise notes for each sample and how it's presenting visual aroma, flavor, taste and mouthfeel because
00:34:59
Speaker
you need to be giving these notes back to the brewer. It's not just like, yeah, I liked it. it You have to be like, and they don't, you really don't want to give um brewing advice or try and guess what kind of hop is in it. Don't make this beer ever again. yeah yeah It's about assessing it in terms of sensory characteristics and how it compares to the guidelines. Not anything subjective. It's always objective. And any i mean how do you actually manage that physically in terms of like staying awake and have it freshness? like So you're still being as fair as you can be to your 80th beer on the third day as you were to the first beer on the first day. like Is there any sort of tips or is it just you know just try your best? I think you definitely get, um especially if you're very confident or comfortable with that style, you can really pick out
00:35:50
Speaker
quickly, uh, things that aren't characteristic of that style. Um, and people always sometimes don't think about visual aspect as much, but visual is, is a really big, um, component of what that beer should be. So it's always starting with the visual, just making sure that that's all ah to spec. Um, and then yeah, between each sample, um, it's good to, so you smell the back of your own hand. So that's kind of helps you reset your sense of smell, having sips of water. um They give you palate cleansers, usually it's tasty cheese and some crackers. The cheese can be a bit waxy on the tongue after a while, but it kind of helps. Sticking away from coffee in the morning, um any spicy foods, definitely no go for smoking.
00:36:41
Speaker
because you want to have a fresh palate. Yeah. I've noticed the lunches are always those plain white triangular sandwiches. Yeah. They sort of serve it. Yeah. Countries, women's associations, morning teas yeah normally keep that food as bland as possible. Bland. Yeah. There was one year that there was a lot of curry and onion involved in lunch and everyone thought it was a bit strange. They'll usually have non-scented soaps as well in the bathrooms, which helps. Okay. and no staying at all three or four o'clock in the morning each night and then starting again. You'd honestly have a miserable day. yeah like It'd be pretty bad. um and and Something you mentioned a couple of times and in terms of the study you've done, Cicerone, and also teaching Cicerone. So this is i guess another aspect of
Cicerone Certification and Training
00:37:26
Speaker
what you do. Can you tell us a little bit about what Cicerone is and how you got into it and why it matters? Yep. So Cicerone is an organization in the US based in Chicago.
00:37:38
Speaker
They are kind of the pioneers, I'd say, of beer education um in terms of a holistic view of the industry. There's also obviously Domens in Germany, IBD, which is also really good for more brewing chemistry and stuff like that. But Cicerone is more of a holistic view of the industry and it's valuable to anyone. in any role, really, um not just on the tools. um yeah I think I've seen a number of businesses, whether they're venues or brew pubs, put all their front of house staff yeah through just the entry level Cicero as well. So it's not just for brewers. It's something that's more about learning. Well, you can tell us what it's about, learning about beer. So the first level is Certified Beer Server. um And we we promote all of our front of house staff to go through this program. um We just had a ah big group of people actually
00:38:34
Speaker
um, have a study group for that and go through, um, together. Uh, we promote a lot of beer education training and stuff like that within our company. Um, and certified beer server is a base, base level knowledge. It's very attainable. Um, but it gives you a, a really good, um, entry into, you know, some styles, um, brewing specifics, ingredients, flavors, um, and a little bit into faults, but only like storage faults, no brewing faults. Yeah. And you've gone from doing the basic course through how many, what level have you attained now? I'm only certified Cicerone. Okay. but you But you are delivering the program as well, is that right? Yes. yeah Yeah. So we've got three advanced Cicerones in Australia. um I'm the level below that, certified Cicerone. And that's the most common level to achieve. But I have been doing, I've been the Victorian proctor for the Cicerone exam and their in-person trainings.
00:39:32
Speaker
um in Melbourne for the last two Jewish years. In terms of your day-to-day or even just enjoying beer, like what does ah having attained certifications for me? What but but but benefits does it bring for you and for the business? um really I think it's a really good program because it it's about, um I think the like what they're trying to get across is, one, it's a really good door opener for anyone who's interested in being in the beer industry because you get a little bit of everything. You learn a little bit about styles, a little bit about food and beer parent pairings, brewing process, ingredients, faults, flavors, all of it. so And then you can kind of pick where you fit in. um But also, I think that's something that's really important about Cicerone is that it's about keeping beer relevant.
00:40:25
Speaker
um and not you know and not falling in ah in a market that's so flooded in terms of the alcohol industry. um you know There's wine, spirits, RTDs, all sorts of stuff. It's about saying that beer is just as good as wine. It's just as good as a pairing. It can be treated with the same level of respect. Exactly. Yeah. So that's, I think that's what Cicerone kind of stands for and what they're really good at. In terms of your own experience with it, I mean, you talked about doing it like a tap house. Was that when you kind of went, okay, I know beer is what I want to do and I want to be involved in production to some capacity. Like, like what, do you remember that light bulb kind of, or or kind of what you went, was there sort of moments in it?
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say when I decided to do the certified Cicerone level, I decided that I wanted to work in the brewing industry um and was a bit, you know, unsure of where I would fit in. But yeah, I also really like beer education. I like teaching. um So that's also really fun to see people going through that process as well and have that sort of spark lit about learning and It's a funny one as well, because I think in certainly in the early years I was getting involved in beer over here, launching the Crafty Pine, I guess the big early boom years of craft beer. There was a lot of beer education taking place, a lot of events that were built around beer education, like you know our stars to this to an extent at the Tap House. And I've talked to a number of sort of brewers saying it currently needs to be brought back, whether it's a case of the industry thinking, oh oh, we've sort of made it to this level now, we don't need to do that. But I think it actually plays a really important role because
00:42:03
Speaker
Once you and know a bit new and understand a bit more about beer, I think you actually enjoy it more personally. you know I think I'd want to find out more. Is that something you you sort of find it as well? that with If you can educate people a little bit, they suddenly go, oh, it's not just something I'm drinking. I actually understand what this is now and oh why that's different. And that sort of boosts their interest. Definitely. Yeah. I think that there was, as you said, a ah large focus on beer education, um you know, 10 years ago in Australia. Um, which has tapered off a little bit, but you do still see venues as well, reaching out, um, interested in getting their staff certified Cicerone or certified beer server, um, certified the first level. Sorry. You know what I mean? Um, and yeah, I think there is that flux of motivation. Um, so I think it is very.
00:43:01
Speaker
important because it does you still do see people coming through the program and getting that spark again and you kind of need those people to instigate another flame. Where are you off to next?
Future Plans and Relocation to the US
00:43:16
Speaker
So I will be relocating back to the United States. um in a certain amount of time. DVD. How long was it since you've lived there on a permanent basis? 11 years. Wow. Yeah. Do you know about Trump? Who?
00:43:37
Speaker
oh So yeah, big so be a big big move then. yeah Yeah, it'll be a big move. um Yeah, I've always been kind of never going home. But, uh, yeah, I'm ready to be, you know, a bit closer to family and stuff like that. So I'm excited for that next chapter. And I am a citizen here as well. So, you know, I might be back in six months. And staying in beer when you go to the States, is that the plan? I think so. Yeah. Um, I'd like to do a bit more study. Um, I've done a, um, a certification with UC Davis, which is a uni in the States. That's quite good with brewing science and sensory science.
00:44:15
Speaker
Um, but I'd like to potentially do a full bachelor's on food science. So see how that goes. Um, but yeah, we'll open to whatever happens really. And if you got contacts over there, any, any opportunity, any opportunities like ahead already. Um, I've got some contacts there. I've met a couple of people through, um, judging at the AIBAs, um, who are involved in Cicerone and in the industry. Um, I also obviously work with Cicerone here, so I have some contacts through that. and we'll probably continue to run courses and exams for them. um And pretty excited because I do like i do like beer judging. I should be, hopefully, judging the World Beer Cup for 2025. It's pretty exciting. and that's And that is the premier beer judging competition on the planet, is that right?
00:45:06
Speaker
potential I don't know. You're keen to do it though. It'll be fun, yeah. yeah It'll be nice to see what the industry is like there because I was i was quite, you know, I was working front of house when I was in the US over 11 years ago. Now you're going back as the guru. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how that industry works and how I can fit into It's there. I'm sure you will find your place. Hopefully. That's great. no Well, thanks for joining us and best of luck with the the next stage in your global travels and adventures. Yeah. Cheers. Cheers.
00:45:49
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com. and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials. we wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website the events or festivals we run without the support to the beer industry whether that's suppliers bars breweries or bottle shops If you'd like to support the show or partner with The Crafty Pine in other ways, please reach out to Craig by the details in the show notes. And if you're a beer lover who'd like to support what we do, you can join our exclusive club for beer lovers, The Crafty Cabal. Visit craftycabal.com for more. And until next time, drink good beer.