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Voice of the Mountains: The Measure of Permission with Dr. Christine Theodorovics
3 Playsin 11 hours
Dr. Christine Theodorovics — Viennese-born insurance CEO, doctoral researcher, and accomplished recreational mountaineer — joins Steve House for a wide-ranging conversation about what the mountains teach us that the boardroom cannot. Christine's story spans a humble upbringing in Vienna's public housing, a near-fatal attempt on Huayna Potosí with zero acclimatization, 25 years of quietly ticking off all 48 Swiss 4,000-meter peaks alongside a demanding executive career, and doctoral research interviewing 13 expedition leaders aged 39 to 97 across eight countries. What she found surprised her: at the end of every mountaineering life, what mattered most wasn't summits — it was the human connection forged along the way.
The conversation moves fluidly between expedition leadership and corporate governance, Viktor Frankl and intrinsic motivation, quota politics and the permission women give themselves to lead. Christine argues that accountability can never be truly shared, that freedom requires a well-defined frame, and that the mountains remain one of the few places where positional authority dissolves entirely — replaced by demonstrated competence and trust earned in the field. A self-described "curious" person who has financed every step of her own path, Christine offers a perspective that is equal parts rigorous and warm, and thoroughly earned.
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Transcript
Overcoming Norms and Building Competence
00:00:00
Speaker
In most of life, in the corporate world, in our personal lives, in our sporting ambitions, we are trained to wait for permission. We wait for the title, the invitation, or the sign-off of the expert's blessing.
00:00:14
Speaker
My guest today, Dr. Kristine Theodolvich, is the CEO of a large international insurance company and a lifelong Mountaineer. And she is someone who has challenged this whole idea of waiting for permission.
00:00:29
Speaker
When she was younger, she learned the high cost of impatience when she stood but beneath Juanipodesi in the Bolivian Andes and thought, why why don't I just do that now while I'm here? Well, suffice it to say, she failed spectacularly.
00:00:45
Speaker
The mountain drove her back with altitude illness. But that failure didn't crush her ambition. It taught her an important lesson that she needed to build competence one step at a time and not skip steps and then give herself that permission to move forward.
Balancing Careers and Personal Ambitions
00:01:02
Speaker
So over the next two decades while leading insurance companies across Europe, Christina didn't ask for a new chance. She, she built her competence one step at a time. And with mountaineering, She systematically climbed all 48 of Switzerland's 4,000 meter peaks one weekend at a time.
00:01:22
Speaker
She did a doctoral research project where she traveled around the world and interviewed climbing expedition leaders, aged 39 to 89, and tried to understand what they knew about leadership and how to translate that into leadership in business world.
00:01:43
Speaker
One of the things that she learned was that authority in the most dangerous and most stressful environments is not granted by a title. It is earned through what she calls qualified experiences.
00:01:57
Speaker
This sheds some truth on this old Alpine maxim, ability is the measure of permission. Think about that. Ability is the measure of permission.
00:02:08
Speaker
Her permission is one of meritocracy, responsibility, accountability, and hard work, and of not being afraid to take permission to define her own abilities and own her own accomplishments.
00:02:21
Speaker
It's a conversation about the difference between youthful ambition and earned ability. Christine will never talk about taking power. She talks about owning the process that gives her the permission to excel, not with pure approval, but with proof of self.
00:02:41
Speaker
I think this is a really important conversation because we explore the methods of building permission to excel that work both in a boardroom and in a bivouac.
Permission and Authority in Challenging Environments
00:02:51
Speaker
And this tells us and instructs us on knowing when and where you're able to fully stand and who you become and own the permission to act from that place.
00:03:02
Speaker
My name is Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains.
00:03:13
Speaker
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00:03:30
Speaker
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00:03:45
Speaker
Welcome. Hello. Hello, Steve. I'm really glad that you're having me for your super podcast. Thank you. You've said that in the end, you only see the summit, but it's the many small steps that get you there. Some people may hear that as something like a motivational platitude, but I think that you mean it as an operational philosophy. What did you mean by that?
00:04:11
Speaker
Well, I think it's it's two things. One is, I mean, the summit is you have to consider that or I consider that as some sort of overarching goal, be it of specific project or in your life. It's a visionary thing. You know, it's the summit. And the many, many steps is the way how to how you get there. That means you need to operate lot.
00:04:31
Speaker
make it operational, touchable, tangible, and then develop a plan how to do it. It's easy to say, I want to do that, but you you don't basically put any flesh in the game and invest yourself. And so at the at the same time, it's, you know, working out how to do it, but also investing yourself, meaning doing, you know, taking all those steps with all the right efforts. And sometimes that's really tough. And it's easy to say, I would like to do that without actually, you know, operationally thinking about it.
Influences and Early Experiences in Mountaineering
00:05:00
Speaker
I think that's the crucial thing about the whole, I mean, about everything, i be it on a mountain or being on any project you would like to realize. And it's really hard to know what you don't know when you start up climbing a mountain or starting a project, right? There's so much sort of ignorance. And I don't mean that in the sort of negative sense. I mean, not in just the practical sense that there's a lot you don't know. You don't know how to climb an mountain until you've climbed a few. Right.
00:05:24
Speaker
Of course, absolutely. I mean, that's the whole thing about it. Otherwise, you would just take a plan and then you tick the boxes and the checklist and you just know what to expect. But that's nowhere there. I mean, be it in the corporate world or be it on the mountain, there's always some surprises coming around. So you should rather a be surprised if there are no surprises. no Yeah, of course. Take me back to your childhood and going to the Racks Mountains for the first time.
00:05:47
Speaker
Who are you there with? What are those mountains like? And what did those early memories feel like now? Well, you know, my I mean, I really still love the rocks and the Schneeberg. It's my favorite mountains because it's this home, heimat feeling. And my mother, she used to come from the Austrian mountains. She comes from Semmering, which you might know. It's in Styria. So she always took us to the Raksin Schneeberg also to to go skiing and so on, but also to go hiking because it was basically where she was from. So I was exposed quite early to an area, mountain environment. And I also have a small anecdote which um comes to my mind. You might know Viktor Frankl, you know, the very famous Austrian psychologist. Of course.
00:06:32
Speaker
psychiatrist and um he was ah an avid fan and lover of the rugs. He was there every single weekend and climbing, you know, and then afterwards he was helping out in one of the huts as a waiter to help the the mountain huts tenors there. And the thing is, he used to be at the Otto Halls, which is the major hut, the bigger hut on the rugs. And when I was little, I was used to sit on his lap there You know, crawling around. And I wish my mother had taken a picture of of him and me because I'm the biggest fan, obviously, of Viktor Frankl because he combines this psychological analysis with his mountaineering experiences. And and um he was a complete passionate alpinist. So I think that that was something which is a nice anecdote. But obviously, I didn't know who he was when I was three years old. But this was the early, I think, imprinting as a childhood. It imprints you somehow that you have a feeling, ah a good feeling about something. And that was the mountains. And the thing is, when you're little, you do it with your parents. Then you become a teenager and you do everything else than what you did with your parents. So I went scuba diving, basketball playing and horseback riding, but always far away from the mountains. Only skiing remained a common you know threat. through my life And only during or after my studies, actually, I came back via ah really exotic travels in the Andes, as you mentioned before, to this taste of the mountains. And the feeling that wherever I am in the entire world, as soon as I'm on a mountain, I somehow felt home. Because that's this early imprinting, you know, whether you stand in the Andes or in the Himalaya or in Africa. As soon as you're in some mountain alpine environment, it feels somehow...
00:08:17
Speaker
area you know or you feel comfortable so so that was a little bit the the way and I learned skiing there as well on the mini slopes with one t-bar uh till I was I think 14 years old this is where I learned skiing but I mean I learned skiing with three years so that was my my home turf so to say Yeah, that's an amazing story. i mean, and Viktor Frankl, for those of you listening that don't know him, he wrote this incredible book called Man's Search for Meaning, which recounts how he survived the concentration camps during the Second World War. He's a Jewish psychiatrist from Vienna, kind of a contemporary of Freud's as well. Like part of this like very rich history.
00:08:56
Speaker
could have, you know, has defined, uh, psychiatry worldwide since, since their time hasn't changed, I don't think too much. And, was just, this book is something that I've probably read 15 times. It's one of the, there are a few books that read every couple of years, just go back to and read again and read again. And that is one of them. And it's absolutely incredible if you haven't read it. Yeah, I've read it many times. Yeah, I'd interested to try to read in the German. Maybe it would be different.
00:09:25
Speaker
um Yeah, you have... ah You know, described yourself as kind of having a a youthful delusion when you're in La Paz and you went up to Apodosí.
00:09:39
Speaker
what What was that delusion exactly and what actually broke it? Well, it was actually, I mean, it was predictable. We knew at the time, i mean, I was very young. I didn't even know anything about mountaineering. I didn't even know that, you know, I mean, there was a big danger or high altitude sickness. I only knew we need to be acclimatized. And the thing was,
00:10:00
Speaker
I was backpacking at the time and we went to Bolivia for five or six weeks. I was well acclimatized because they're always above 4,000 meters. And when we wanted to climb the Zulina Potosi, which I thought is easy, you no idea about but anything, really super naive. And then ah I said, um well, let's go. And then there was a snowstorm. And so they canceled the trip. And we already had booked a flight to the Amazonian part of ah Bolivia and spent a week there.
00:10:29
Speaker
Obviously, after week in the Amazon basin of Bolivia, you're not acclimatized anymore. And then we came back and we naively thought, now we're going to make the tour. We had three days left. And you know for obvious reasons, we completely failed. Because when you come from zero and you fly into La Paz and the next day you run up to...
00:10:48
Speaker
the The base camp, I think, was in 5,300 meters or something like that's that. It's bit substantial. So I failed to die there. I mean, I nearly died because I had these lips completely black and also the fingernails, you know, they were dark blue. And now I know I was really in danger. But at the time, I mean, I was 24 years old. I had no clue. There was no internet or there was no inflammation. Yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker
I'm happy I survived, but I also learned you know how hard... I mean, it's really hard if you walk up. I mean, it was a a long ah way up there, a long trek to go to the space camp.
00:11:20
Speaker
and um But i I really somehow got hooked because I really liked you know the atmosphere, the sleeping in the tent, although I was miserable. But I but i thought...
00:11:31
Speaker
Why do I necessarily have to do that in the Andes? I could also start climbing in the Ops and that was a little bit the yeah the reintroduction to the mountains. And I climbed the rocks in the Schneeberg with my mum when I came back, which was more adequate.
00:11:47
Speaker
And you didn't get blue lips and black fingers. Exactly. Sounds like a lot more fun. And then you sort of created this project that you completed over 20 years of climbing the 48, 4,000-meter summits in Switzerland. Yeah. that That you did while, you know,
00:12:08
Speaker
building your career for many, for those couple of decades. Talk about that and and that balance. Was every year the same? Were there years where you gave up some mountaineering because of what was going on professionally? Or was it just, how did that work?
Balancing Professional and Personal Life
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a good question. And the thing is, it wasn't actually a project at all. and know i just um I used to live in Munich at the time, and then I started climbing because it's close to Tyrol and you're from Vienna it's far. So ah from Munich I started climbing. I did all the courses, you know like ah how to behave on a glacier, jump in your crevice, and did all this training. That was the end of the 90s. And then all of a sudden, out of the blue, I got an offer.
00:12:47
Speaker
ah from a Swiss bank to to work in Switzerland. I had no clue about banking, ah but they really wanted me, so they offered me a good job. And I said, well, okay, you know, why not?
00:13:00
Speaker
It wasn't my plan to work in a bank, really, or in finance. But then there were the mountains, you know. I mean, that's also an incentive if you offer the job so close to the mountains. And then, and that was in 2000, I really started getting more into the, you know, alpinism because it's close. You can do it every weekend. And the 4,000 meters peaks are just there.
00:13:20
Speaker
And so I just started climbing guided tours or with some friends. And in the course of time, obviously you climb 4,000 meter peaks as well. And then you just continue. And I was there. I mean, like I really continued every year, not a lot, but steadily. I used to run marathon at the time.
00:13:38
Speaker
So I was always in a very good shape and never never had any problems in terms of ah resilience or good condition. And again, this was 25 years ago, so was easier. And so I always tried to keep a sam some years a little bit less, some years a little bit more. And I think after maybe 10 years, I started getting into the more difficult 4,000-meter peaks where I really needed also a guide one-to-one sometimes, you know. and And this guy at a certain point, he said, look, I mean, you've already done so many. You could do all. And I wasn't even aware of all. I mean, I wasn't even aware they were 48. And then he said, well, you only have to do 10 more or something like this.
00:14:19
Speaker
and And then it became a project when I realized I could do them all. And ah I wasn't convinced at all because I'm not a good climber. You know, I'm passionate and I have a very good physical condition I had. I was very, you know, resilient, but I'm not a good technical climber. Nothing compared to you or your peers. I mean, that's so far away, like you wouldn't even... be able to say, but you know, I thought if this mountain guy has the impression I can do it, he he is the expert, he can judge. i I haven't been up there yet. So so in course ah in the course of the time, it was really a project with this specific mountain guy because he could judge. And then, ah so I just, you know, ticked off the boxes, which also
00:15:02
Speaker
was then funny because I had to do the Grand Combin two times because ah the first time I went only on the meet summit and then I figured it counts for three. So I had to go back and do the other two summits. and so So it was a game also. And yes, I had to balance it a little bit with a job. But then again, if you live in Switzerland, you can do it in a weekend. You do a 4,000 meter peak, you come back and you work again.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. the let's I'm very curious to hear your impression of how we first met and that experience.
00:15:36
Speaker
I want to hear your story and then I'll tell you my story. In 2005? Yeah. Yeah, that was really fantastic. so What were you doing in Pakistan? Yeah, I had this unique opportunity to go on this expedition trekking. was a trekking expedition like with Reinhard Meissner. And that was a very spontaneous decision because and i was at the time training for the Ironman. And so I was in a super good shape and I was really a just finished the Ironman.
00:16:06
Speaker
And ah so I didn't plan anything for the summer because I was training all the time. And then a very good friend of mine said, look, there is um there is a trip where i can sign up with Reinhard Mesna. It's really tough. It's an expedition like in Pakistan.
00:16:20
Speaker
I cannot go. do you want to go? And I said, well, Reinhard Mesna, I mean, he's an idol. You know, and my mother already went there when I was a kid. And I said, well, can you just sign up there? And she said, yeah, yeah. So I just signed up two weeks before.
00:16:34
Speaker
And I just went, you know, it was like completely out of the blue. And it was a fantastic ah trip because it was surrounding the Nanga Baba. And I went with Reinhard Messner with my book about Nanga Baba written by him in my hand, you know, and I was like, ah you know, what were you referring on this page to and so on. And so he was telling all his stories and everything. So it was a fantastic experience for a passionate alpinist. And I also like alpine history. or I really like all those stories and so on.
00:17:03
Speaker
But, and then, so we see but so we did this trekking around Nagar Pabat, and actually we wanted to climb the Diyamir Pnaroj, which is a 6,000 meter peak. And the thing is, we didn't, because we found this shoe of the brother of Reinhold in this expedition. So that was another alpine historic moment. I mean, in all the books you can read, you you you read about it, and I was there when we found this book. It's now in the museum.
00:17:29
Speaker
And obviously, what topped everything is we met a young US s mountaineer called Steve Howes, sitting in his camp at the Rupal phase.
00:17:40
Speaker
And then, you know, everybody said, oh, those are two aspiring young alpinists, but they are fantastic and they will try to climb the Rupal phase. And this is what Reinhard Mesov, his brother, did for all the people who might not know the story where the brother then afterwards died. So this is all historic. And there you were sitting with Vince Anderson trying to get some tips also from Reinhardt because he did the same trip in 1970. And that was in 2005.
00:18:06
Speaker
So this is how we met. And I thought that was really fantastic. And and then why we came back to Europe. And one or two weeks after we came back, I read in the newspaper, there was the, you know, like this was the super, super highlighted news.
00:18:21
Speaker
that the two of you made it in alpine style to the top of Nagar Barbat. And it was just so surreal that we met before and then I read everywhere. And so that was a fantastic... I mean, all those coincidences you couldn't plan, you know?
00:18:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, and we had no idea... that you guys were coming or that you were there. it was just like all of a sudden one day, like we're, we're in our rest period, just waiting for the weather. it was the end of August. And just sort of look up and, you know, trekkers pass through there and here come some trekkers and, you know, it's sort of, you're in the meadow and people usually camp around the same place because there's the spring water and so on. Like no big deal. And then, and then like one of the trekkers, ah i I really remember like looking up and like looking down and thinking like,
00:19:12
Speaker
wait, that's Reinhold Messner. like Like looking up again and being like, i mean, he he looked at me and I must've just had this like complete, you know, just sort of,
00:19:24
Speaker
what? Like I couldn't believe, like, how is it that Reinhold Mesner, is this a dream? Like we're at the bottom of the RuPaul phase trying to climb this thing and Reinhold is here? I can't believe it. And then we, yeah, we, we, we ended up hanging out and you and I talked a bunch and we talked to Reinhold a lot. like my, my memory of Reinhold was like, we're trying to get tips that he wouldn't, it felt to us like he wasn't telling us anything. It was like, we were like trying like, trying to pull something useful out of him and we're,
00:19:53
Speaker
But this 35 years before. Yeah, of course. He might not have had all the details anymore. Yeah, yeah and and he climbed a completely different route and you
Leadership Dynamics in Extreme Environments
00:20:04
Speaker
know everything is different. So what can you say? and now i Now I completely understand that. But at the time, I was just like, come on, give us some information.
00:20:13
Speaker
um but that love and But you know, one thing he told us that we did is he said, um he told us about how when he went down on the other side after he lost Gunther and then he walked out, that he had a hard time getting help and he didn't have any money.
00:20:27
Speaker
And so we actually put a bunch, like, I don't know, several hundred dollars worth of Pakistani rupees in a plastic bag and put it in the bottom of our backpack in case we ended up on the other side. We would be able to like hire a jeep or whatever to come back around. Yeah.
00:20:45
Speaker
So we did make one equipment adjustment. yeah We ended up coming back down the same side, down Reinhold's route, but that's another story that's so funny. Yeah, that no that was that was really fun, and it was the only time really...
00:20:59
Speaker
where we had a trekking group that that sort of interacted with us. I mean, we had a we had at least one or maybe a couple of meals together or something. And we really like, we talked to a lot of your expedition members and it was really fun. Yeah. but There weren't a lot of ah groups around. i don't remember. We met many people on this track because it was really, we went with with local peoples to find also the trail because sometimes there was no trail. And I remember at a certain point there was an avalanche, like a mud avalanche, which covered the complete trail. And so we had to walk around two days. So it was really expedition-like. I loved it. It was so remote. There was nothing, you know. I mean, yeah was really nice. Not too many people do the circumnavigation of that mountain. No, not at all. That's why it was so interesting. Yeah, it is huge. And the Matinola obviously is really high.
00:21:47
Speaker
So, you know, and you cannot not go because then you have to go back. And that's, to I mean, it's the point of no return. So it was really expedition-like, you know, we felt like being on a real expedition. So if we're going, connecting back to expeditions, I want to talk about your doctoral research and the interviews you did. and I mentioned them before, but, you know, one of these guys was almost 100 years old. What What did they tell you about the moments that changed them, the near misses, the losses, the decisions that they had to make that they they can't forget?
00:22:21
Speaker
Were there specific stories or something that surprised you? I mean, I have all in all, I mean, I've interviewed 13 people over two or three years and the rest was all the analysis and it took slow because I worked. I always took breaks of two years and then i I got myself back again in the analysis and everything. um But I have 333 pages of transcripts. um So if it's really 13 interviews. that so it's a lot. I mean, to to to boil it down, it's difficult. But the thing is, what I was most...
00:22:59
Speaker
not astonished, but surprised, is that the the underlying theme of everybody and leadership and and and all the accounts was really this human aspect. There was no um um regrets about not having done an expedition, not having reached the summit. It was all the human-related experiences and the human-related aspects which touched people, really, be it dramatic things or be it bonding with people and you know having experiences together in a positive way.
00:23:34
Speaker
And it actually boiled down to that. It's the human aspect. And that was quite surprising in the sense that if you think about corporate management or leadership and expedition guys, they're really tough mountaineers and then they go up in the ice and they survive catastrophes and so on.
00:23:53
Speaker
So you don't necessarily all of a sudden think about empathy and human aspects. Of course, you also do, but i wouldn't have immediately said that's the first thing I'm thinking about.
00:24:04
Speaker
But at the end of the day, it always came back to that. Be it in a conflict, be it in the bonding, be it in a positive surprise, it was always this human interaction, which was in the center of all the the accounts.
00:24:17
Speaker
And that's quite that's quite a lesson. I mean, at the end of the day, we are all human beings. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also fascinated by the kind of age range because you had expedition leaders that were 97 and then some that were, one was 39, believe. And the style of doing expeditions changed so much from 1950 to 2000 and 2000. Whenever the last one that you expedition-wise... Well, the youngest one was actually Edurne, Edurne Pasaban, the Spanish lady, who climbed all the 8,000-meter peaks as a first lady.
00:24:56
Speaker
oh Oh, yeah. and um And then um the oldest was Norman Dierenfurt and at the time was 93. He's now passed away, but I was so lucky to get hold of him. He lived in Salzburg and I was at the time working in Austria. So I...
00:25:14
Speaker
I went and saw him and that was an extraordinary experience because he was still part of a like a different generation. I mean, he's the one who organized the first expedition, US expedition on Everest yeah in 1963. And he was awarded by John F. Kennedy a medal, which he had in his apartment. And with the picture of him and John F. Kennedy, plus the two shepherds, which he brought, brought along, and that's also a leadership thing, he brought along the Sherpas to receive the medals from the US president.
00:25:47
Speaker
And there was also a nice anecdote, he said they nearly got attacked by the bodyguards because they had these scarves which they put on your neck in Nepal. So they probably wanted to put it on John F. Kennedy's and the bodyguards were ready to jump at them. put them down because you cannot touch the US president. So, I mean, to talk to somebody like that, he was teaching Marilyn Monroe, Marilyn Monroe in Hollywood because he was a photography and film teacher before. So, I mean, those are things where it's a different sphere. And then Edurne, I mean, she's like our age, she's our generation and you met her and she's like contemporary. So, that was the time period. I also wanted to have a long time period because
00:26:34
Speaker
the style of the expeditions fundamentally changed in this time period. Plus, during the time period at the end, the commercial expeditions were also introduced. So I made sure I also talked to some of the commercial expedition leaders, which are completely different than, obviously, um the expedition leaders which ah which ah were working or climbing with professionals or experts for that matter. So, yes, it it was a large range of people. But it was hard to find women, ah I have to say. I didn't interview lot of women. ah
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, and well, I mean, this voice of the mountains, I also struggle with that, like to find, you know, it's it's not balanced. Part of that's a reflection of who are my friends. I have more male friends and female friends. It's also a reflection of the topic of the season, which is, you know, business, and then ah the than then the mountains, you know, and all those things it sort of selects, ah seems to select pretty male-heavy.
00:27:37
Speaker
do Was there a moment when someone told you something in those interviews that changed how you see yourself or how you see leadership? Well, I think it was a lot what I mentioned before, this human factor. I mean, one of the things which I thought was really, i mean, one of the most reflected persons,
00:27:57
Speaker
Was Sir Chris Bonnington? I mean, was he still alive? But when I interviewed him and I actually his book, one of his books was the reasons I had this idea for the thesis because he was so reflected about leadership.
00:28:15
Speaker
He's one of the of the few expedition leaders who invested himself to improve as a leader. to improve his leadership skills. And afterwards, really reflected on all everything which happened, wrote many books about it. And that's when I read one of those books.
00:28:31
Speaker
He inspired me to write this thesis, which I did really for pure joy because the title or the subject did not necessarily do anything positive to my career or anything. It was really a combination of something I wanted to accomplish. And I'm ah i'm very interested in leadership. And as an alpinist, I as thought the match was good.
00:28:53
Speaker
um But Circus Bonington, when I interviewed him, he really... he was really convinced that you need to invest a lot of time to bond the team.
00:29:07
Speaker
And he had many examples where he didn't invest himself or where, for example, very for practical reasons in the tracking towards the base camp, which at the time took many, many weeks and not like now. ah So yeah usually we're going in one group.
00:29:24
Speaker
Sometimes these groups groups split up in two and he might hang out with one group more than with the other group. When they arrived at base camp, there was a complete asymmetric asymmetry in the relationship he has built up and thus the team itself didn't bond really well.
00:29:43
Speaker
That is very blunt, maybe, if you want to look at it from from external and say, well, yeah, that's true, that can happen, but that's not bad that's not so um ah dramatic.
00:29:55
Speaker
But yes, it was. At the end of the day, it took a lot of effort in the other team, for example, for him as a leader. to make up again and then to bring them together. And the more he invested in the base camp time, the less issues he had afterwards, you know, when they went to the high camps and they had the walkie-talkies at the time, because then you cannot have a lot of conversations anymore or discuss things because you're very limited in your time and you're way out to, you know, you have a space of, I don't know, five minutes every day at four and then you call yourself.
00:30:25
Speaker
So I think that was extremely interesting on how much to build this team and to bond this team should be invested to make sure that afterwards
Challenges of Remote Work and Team Management
00:30:35
Speaker
they work. And the interesting thing is when I and and when i finalized the thesis, I actually inter introduced a chapter on remote um meetings because it was during COVID. And at the time, all these team calls came up and they they completely substituted any human interaction in real because of COVID.
00:30:55
Speaker
And I thought... That was really a lesson learned because you cannot, even though we do ah substitute meetings with team meetings, and that makes a lot of sense in terms of you're all saving time and money, ah but you cannot completely substitute it. You need to invest in the team.
00:31:14
Speaker
Once a team knows each other and there's a confidence level, you can do a lot via remote. But you cannot, by definition, substitute from the very beginning because this confidence level and this trust is very hard to install if you don't spend time together. Invest yourself. I thought that was one of the really interesting things which you can one-to-one relate and where are many mistakes came.
00:31:43
Speaker
are happening in our corporate work because people think they're safe if they don't do not bring teams together. in reality in reality, I think it's a very good idea to at least once a year or to make a new team get to know each other, invest two days somewhere, doesn't matter where, to to get to each other and then everything works nicely.
00:32:04
Speaker
That's one of those things where I thought, well, he has a point and he has done it many times and that you could translate really easily. And he's done it from, you know, his early expeditions in the early 60s that were massive. Like his early, you know, he was leader of the early, some of these early British Everest climbs from the south side and they climbed the southwest phase. And then later on in the 70s and 80s, they were going as teams of four to Himalaya and doing things. So yes quite, he lived for this incredible span. I've been trying to get him to come on this podcast, but I think he's so ah think he's not doing interviews the moment. So hopefully I can find a way to convince him. I was lucky, you know, when I and i was referred to him and I remember so well, he was very strict. ah He said, um okay, you can come and um interview me, but make sure you have read all my books before.
00:33:00
Speaker
And he was right. I mean, he wrote so many books and he didn't want me to waste his time to ask exactly the same questions which he had already answered in the book. so i was I was really reading all these books and then referring to certain things there, which I thought was a valid ask. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I got to spend a lot of time. and Initially, we had 45 minutes. I was there two hours with him. So he was really, really very nice and very eloquent in his sayings. It was one of the most interesting interviews I had. yeah
00:33:33
Speaker
I can imagine. What an incredible guy. I've had the chance to meet him a few times. So you you found that in that this idea, one of the ideas that you kind of elaborated on in your right and your thesis it was that how expedition leadership, as we've ah observed a few times, has evolved from this hierarchical command towards sort of a small agile team with more distributed leadership. And you talk about emotional intelligence taking precedent over things like positional authority. That's, you know, I think a lot of small companies or startup companies, they they think in those terms, but at the corporate level,
00:34:14
Speaker
You know, at least the the people I know that work in places like Cisco or other big corporations, Walmart, you know, they they're not really operating. They're trying to operate that way, but they but they really struggle to.
00:34:29
Speaker
How does that affect how you lead both in the in the group at Havetsia Bawa and, you know, your CEO role for the three countries, Italy, Austria, and Luxembourg?
00:34:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's a very important point you're making here. I mean, there have been many, many ah ah tries, you know, also in the corporate work to incorporate a little bit more, you know, agile leadership styles or ah be leaner, approachable and so on. And I think a lot of things have changed.
00:35:02
Speaker
There are less hierarchies, there are less formalities than many years ago, not everywhere, but ah that you can really, i mean, change. And it's also society with changes.
00:35:14
Speaker
But a complete, this these agile teams with no authority, with little authority, which just auto manage themselves. We have tried it yeah in different organizations where I've been working.
00:35:28
Speaker
the The problem is also with the startups. It works till the startups gain a certain size. Usually a startup consists of a couple of people, and all like three founders and with some programmers or whatever.
00:35:41
Speaker
Then they're successful, they grow. And usually at the size of, usually it's around 60%. People, something like that, you need, i mean, at the very latest, usually with 30 starts, but 60, you need structures because otherwise it gets completely chaotic, anarchical, and you waste time and resources, really. And even if you have still the same goal, it or you already need some sort of governance, who is signing what, who is deciding what, otherwise it doesn't work.
00:36:10
Speaker
Now, in ah in ah in a big company, the The thing is, usually, why doesn't it work? And I'm convinced that you still need a certain authority and you need hierarchies. It's just easier.
00:36:24
Speaker
And then it's the question of how you live that. But the thing is, if you have a self-organizing team, the authority might be shared.
00:36:37
Speaker
But the accountability never is. At the end of the day, somebody puts the head there. Usually it's then at the top it's the CEO, but it's the head of the department. Somebody is there. I mean, you cannot the accountability, it's somebody is embracing it. He knows or she knows what what she has to do. The team accountability is very difficult to enforce. I mean, the decision is for everybody.
00:37:01
Speaker
the ownership gets very blurry, and when the things go wrong, we're not when the things go good, you we always say the success has many mothers. hu Then nobody feels responsible. So who who do you go to? ah And the managers themselves, they they they don't intervene because they delegated the authority. So nobody's responsible. So what's happening? Nothing. yeah So that's the one thing. So the result is slow decisions, ah you know turning in circles, risk avoidance, finger pointing and so on.
00:37:32
Speaker
So so that's that's one thing. It's very difficult to to be accountable. the The other thing is it's really um the role in biguity and it that creates a little bit like silent power struggles. now If you're not key on your role and everybody does everything, then people i people want to show off. they want to be ah you know You still want the salary rise or do something else one day. So you need to and also you have these silent power struggles.
00:38:00
Speaker
People don't know who decides what. Then they pretend they did something which they didn't. you know So informal hierarchies then emerge. Because at the end of the day, that's very loud. I mean, there's a group, there's always some silent leader or the most experienced person or the most outspoken. So informally it emerges, but it doesn't exist ah in reality. so that So you have those hierarchies and then you have conflicts which are not outspoken, but they go underground because we are all in the same, you know, it's like we all love each other. But then again, there there is a conflict, but we are not not allowed to have one. So that's also difficult.
00:38:36
Speaker
And the third point is the managers of today, they are simply not trained for it. I mean, you can try it, but then at the end... How do you live all that if it's you're in a big organization? At the end of the day, it's your head. you know if it doesn't you know How do you handle all that?
Effective Team Structures and Freedom
00:38:53
Speaker
In our organizations, that's very, very, ah very difficult. And the last thing is it always is assumes this ah trust level. you know ah Sometimes companies say like we are family and so on. Well, that's not really true because in a family you don't get fired. And in a company that can happen.
00:39:12
Speaker
we you know It's not an end to you. It's not some cozy environment. It can be cozy and nice, but it can also be really tough. And then you know if you have no accountability and no structures and everybody...
00:39:24
Speaker
It's just you know floating around. It's very hard. And at the end of the day, you have and meritocracy, you have a consequent management, at least if you're a performance-related company. And you don't do yourself something well or also the team because the decision-making gets painfully slow and nothing happens. And that's also frustrating for people because consensus only consensus-based It doesn't work. you know So yeah, it's it's it's a stretch, but that doesn't mean that you cannot make an effort to change the culture. I mean, you can be less hierarchical. You can be very approachable as a CEO. ah as ah And that's what I ask and what I do, because you can learn a lot. a lot I mean, if i sit in the canteen and I talk to people on the table or I have an appa and I have a drink,
00:40:10
Speaker
take I mean, I talk to everybody and you learn a lot. And I think that's a little bit more the way I would approach it. Because what I also learned, the whole thing about freedom and empowerment...
00:40:22
Speaker
Yes, you should give people empowerment, but you need to define the frame really well because it's easy to say to somebody, just do it as you think because I empower you, but you don't give any guidelines. That's actually not fair because you need to provide a frame, a very good frame, a very well-defined frame. And within this frame, you should give this freedom. So you know you can tell the the person, this is the frame. And within, I trust you, you're the expert, do whatever you want.
00:40:53
Speaker
And if you have a question which is outside of this frame, then please come and ask or or ah talk to your other frame, your colleague who is the frame yeah all of another frame. And then your your task as a manager is to make this frame not leaky, you know, that then all of a sudden the person doesn't know whether it's his responsibility or not.
00:41:13
Speaker
And that allows real freedom. And then it's constructive because then it's not this pseudo delegation, which there is not really a delegation because people don't dare to act because they don't know whether they have the right to do so. So I think that's actually a fairer thing. It has to do with governance. And it might seem that you put some rules, but in reality...
00:41:34
Speaker
it's fairer because people know what they can do and what they cannot do. And the frame can be quite large. You know you don't have to make a mini frame. At the beginning or at the end, maybe it becomes bigger. But then you can just empower really people. So that would be my interpretation of the whole topic and what I've seen. um And how does that apply? You've been talking about it through the lens of the corporate CEO. How does that work in the mountains?
00:42:01
Speaker
Yeah. What is the... It's completely, i think that's very different already in the area where we're thinking of.
Evolving Leadership Styles in Expeditions
00:42:09
Speaker
I think a lot of the conflicts in the areas of um ah the big expeditions, you know, in the 50s where they climbed all the 8,000 meter peaks, I think there was a lot of conflict because of this hierarchical um attitude.
00:42:24
Speaker
and behavior of the expedition leaders. Why? Because they came from a very hierarchical background. Usually those were military guys. Because those expeditions, they were all military background. Because those expeditions were funded by the state, they were very prestigious.
00:42:41
Speaker
And they had the logistics and everything. So that's very military know-how. So by definition, male military background You have this um hierarchical behavior. It was also in the corporate life at the time like that. So that's it's also a society-driven development. And on the other hand, um I think one of the other conflicts was that the leader, the expedition leader, was not necessarily a very good alpinist.
00:43:11
Speaker
So the acceptance was purely about to you know the entitlement, was purely the position power. And that's always a problem. If people know he or she is the boss, but she's only put there for a reason, which is not necessarily the content.
00:43:26
Speaker
of the person's ah you know being or existence, but because somebody put for whatever other reason. And we have ah ah many examples. ah You know that, I mean, one of the best is Aditya Desi of the K2 expedition. He was put there by the Italian and government. government So was he a good alpinist and mountaineer? No.
00:43:45
Speaker
ah Did he know how to to get the state funds and and logistics and organized logistics? Yes. So the thing is, I think a lot of those conflicts were between the the highly motivated alpinists, experts.
00:44:00
Speaker
yeah They could act completely independently. And these very bureaucratic, hierarchical, old-fashioned at the time, not old-fashioned now with our lens, it's always easy to say expostate. At the time, that was the thing.
00:44:13
Speaker
ah people, expeditions leaders. And then all of a sudden you're on the mountain and this this um entitlement becomes different because all of a sudden this logistics person who raised the funds and organized the the expedition has less know-how about what's going on on the on the mountain.
00:44:33
Speaker
And all of a sudden, these experts took over. And very often with fractions in the in the expeditions of Ennard Messner on Nanga Bavad, but also Hermann Buhl on Nanga Bavad 1953, he just took off because he knew he could do it. And he took accountability. So the leadership changes and he goes from these I say organizational logistics leadership to the expert. I would call it the expert because that's then the expert. i mean you You trust the expert. He knows or she knows what what what is doable on the mountain. And who could really link this really well for the first time, I think, was Serbis Bonnigton. He was a super accomplished mountaineer and achiever.
00:45:15
Speaker
He had credibility in the team. He also created his team only with friends. Same nationalities, same background, easy to bond friends. And he went up there and not necessarily to their summit. So he exempted himself and said, well, I'm the leader of the expedition.
00:45:33
Speaker
That's another learning, by the way. The leader doesn't have to be on the summit. And then the people went up there, but they all accepted him. That doesn't matter there were any wild discussions. ah But I think that was the, for the time and the consistency of the and how those expeditions were made up, I think this was the state of the art, what you could have done at the time to cover both. And then he gave the freedom to the people and that's how it works. So I think, yeah, the leadership you have to probably... Yeah, it's the expert leadership and then the rest is like the organization. And the third role, obviously, is the Sirda with all the logistics on the mountains with the Sherpa team, which is like a shadow leadership organism on the mountain, which also completely changes at this point now. I'm talking really about the old-fashioned 50s, 60s, 70s expeditions here. Of course, yeah. And I think it's also interesting because we don't have these...
00:46:30
Speaker
I don't know what to call them, military-style expeditions anymore for the most part. And we're climbing the mountains in small teams of two, four. mean, a big expedition now is 10 or 12 people.
00:46:42
Speaker
be My first expedition in 1990 was 18 people. And it was, we had a leader. He didn't go like, you know, and we had the the walkie-talkie radio check-in every day at four. You know, the people that got to the summit were were were climbers. They weren't.
00:46:58
Speaker
the leader and and so on. But what happens in my experience now is when I'm out in the mountains, whether it's ski touring or or alpine climbing,
00:47:09
Speaker
yeah or, you know, you leave the hut in the morning or you leave camp in the morning or you're on Denali at at high camp, You're on Mount Rainier and there are a bunch of people around you.
00:47:21
Speaker
Almost always there. Maybe it's, maybe it's four, maybe it's 30. I don't know. And then it's all fine when everything is fine. But then as soon as it's not fine, the, this group of people who are complete strangers are looking around, trying to figure out who knows what, Yes. The most. Who's the leader? Like who has them, you know, and and I've found this personally very awkward quite a few times, both because i very often recognize in the mountains, right? Because that's where people know me. Yeah, course. And also I have the mountain guide badge. I i kind of, i now that I'm not officially a mountain guide anymore, I stopped wearing it. I took it off my backpacks and pins and stuff.
00:48:06
Speaker
Partially because like i didn't necessarily want to be made responsible for somebody's disaster. And it's it's it's it's it's a tough thing because like i I, of course, want to help people that are in need or...
00:48:19
Speaker
but I can't take responsibility for everybody out there that just happens to be on the same mountain on the same day. And it's sometimes very, very scary and and it creates some very interesting dynamics. And I haven't quite figured out how to, how to navigate that. You know, it's it's a very interesting observation because, you know, I usually go with mountain guides a lot because I'm not a pro like you. So I, I,
00:48:44
Speaker
And for the difficult or also for the less difficult, I fortunately can afford it now. But I go with Marmenguards. That's my privilege, you know, my luxury in my life to have a real super expert.
00:48:56
Speaker
And I remember when we went the oru with the skis. Our mom got here, really got mad because of this specific reason. Because we were group, good group with him. And you know the Otrut better than I do. And it's a demanding thing. And you want to make sure you know where you go because 1,000 things can happen. And there were these three people.
00:49:22
Speaker
And they were without the guide. And you could tell, you know, you can tell whether somebody's experienced or not already where how he wears the backpack, whether there are 1000 things dangling around. i mean, you just can't tell if you've been in the mountains for many years. So you could tell they they were not experienced.
00:49:38
Speaker
And so that's very dangerous, as we know. You don't do the old truth if you have no idea where you are. And they were actually attaching themselves to us all the time. And, um well, they got a free ride, you know. i mean, we pay for the the guide. And then it's not only that we pay for the guide and he basically gets abused, but it's also what you're saying. I mean, what do you do if one of those guys falls into a carvesque and they had no clue how to rescue the other person or whatever?
00:50:03
Speaker
And at a certain point, the mountain guide, he stopped. It it was foggy because we came. it was also a really bad weather and we had to change a part of the route because of the snowfall. So it wasn't the perfect condition. So those guys, they were following us. And at a certain point, the guide just stopped.
00:50:18
Speaker
I said, okay, let's make a break here. And then they were yeah sort of, they didn't know what to do because they cannot make a break at the same time. And then, ah you know, and then they were like, ah and stopped. And then he really was going at them the second time.
00:50:32
Speaker
And he said, look, I mean, you just go ahead now. I mean, you cannot just you know follow me. Just go ahead. Where would you go now? They didn't have the slightest clue. i mean, it was fog, you know. And that was such a such a situation.
00:50:47
Speaker
and where I thought that's really difficult because you can accept that you get abused and your clients ah or you leave them to the destiny and potentially they die because they were really awkward guys.
00:51:02
Speaker
so So we let them follow us. But then he said, look over there. This is the way down because had to go down and and and take a take another way because of the folk. And there you go and you don't follow us anymore. And next time we take a guide.
00:51:15
Speaker
But that was a really difficult situation. I thought of the guide's responsibility, you know, because you have a responsibility and you're even liable. It's like a doctor, you know, you cannot not help.
00:51:27
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. his responsibility to you and your group is being compromised because now he's only one person and his attention is being divided by these other people. And and that's not fair to you. um so and and it's interesting you mentioned, I've absolutely, i was thinking of the hot root and my some of my experiences there. i know, I've seen your documentary. And you've seen my documentary about... afterwards yeah Yeah, one of my experiences where where a big tragedy unfolded right in front of me. um And also, like, whether you're on the Grosskorkner or the Piz Bernina or the the Mont Blanc or Mount Rainier, I mean, there's there. And I was also a beginner once, right? Like, we all been beginners and we've all been that.
00:52:14
Speaker
And you know I learned a side story, but I learned to climb from my father. And i my father learned to climb because he was stationed ah in the middle in the U.S. Army in a base in Germany in the late 60s because he decided to yeah and go to go to Germany rather than be drafted and sent to the Vietnam War. and Good to assume.
00:52:34
Speaker
Yeah. And so he was there for four years and ah near Stuttgart. And one of his... fellow fellow enlisted men wanted a climbing partner and taught my dad how to climb. And then they went to the Alps and that's how they climbed all their mountains. They climbed the Matterhorn and that's what he told me later. He's like, when he was telling me those stories as a kid, he was like, their whole strategy was to figure out in the hut who the mountain guides were. And then like,
00:53:03
Speaker
out when they were going to wake up and and be awake and be by kind of by the door and then just like be like just you know 10 meters 20 30 feet behind them and and follow them up because they were they didn't know what to do or where to go but they were young and fit and full of energy and excited for the mountains and and stuff but he so it's a time-honored tradition to but do that in a way and what is the response, what is the, who is the leader? Like where, where's the accountability? Where is the responsibility when, when something goes wrong? Obviously when, when, when it's sunny and you can just ski from Chamonix to Zermatt in the sun every day, it's easy. It's great. No problem.
Self-Assessment and Expert Guidance in Mountaineering
00:53:44
Speaker
But on those days, but when, when it's really difficult, that's, that's a whole nother, another matter. This brings me to Paul Preuss. And for those of,
00:53:53
Speaker
My listeners that don't know who Paul Preuss is, so just look him up in Wikipedia. He's an incredible individual. Also from Vienna, I believe, right? Isn't he originally Vienna? I think. I'm not sure whether he was from Vienna. I mean, Austrian for sure. He also died in Austria. think he was from Vienna. And he he he once ah said, and I'll read it.
00:54:23
Speaker
Ability is the measure of permission. ability is the measure of permission i love that phrase ability is the measure of permission How do you ah use that? How do you think about that?
00:54:36
Speaker
Like, even for your own self, like as, as a, you know, ah CEO, like not everyone is able to, you know, achieve something like that in their career.
00:54:47
Speaker
Like, how do you know how much permission to give yourself? Yeah. What's the edge? Well, apparently you don't always know because otherwise Paul Price also, I mean, he died falling off the mountain. So, you know, so that apparently... Good point. That's the stretch. yeah ah But the thing is, I think the essential of this quote is that, you know, the...
00:55:14
Speaker
The limit shouldn't come from anything else but yourself knowing what you're able to do. Now the question is, are you able to know what to what you're able to do? And how do you assess that yourself? But it's this, you are allowed to do more things the more you can do something and they're able to do that. That was basically what he what i was referring to. And that's true for everything. i mean, if you overestimate yourself, ah obviously, you know, if you completely go on a wrong route and you fall off or you... ah you get stuck somewhere that you should, the first ability you should require is to get some sort of an assessment what your abilities are. And if you're not able, and I was referring before to this mountain guide, and I wasn't able because you cannot, I mean, if you have not been on the mountain, how would I know? I mean, you can read all the guides and it says plus Z, whatever, it's thesh verric plus plus, whatever. ah that's ah you know It doesn't really tell you whether I can really do it or not. So for me, for example, to figure out whether I can do it because I do have the capability or not was really the assessment also of an expert because I don't know. So if this mountain guide went with me, i mean, I with him, on five mountains.
00:56:36
Speaker
He knows me. He knows whether I can climb or not and how much I can climb. And if this specific mountain guide, and again, I very much rely on experts. That's why they are there in professional and in mountain or any other life.
00:56:49
Speaker
the If he tells me, look, I think let's train a little and you can do the Shrek one, which I never thought I can do because I'm not a good rock climber. I never, you know, i when there was a rock, I had to climb up, but I didn't specifically train a lot.
00:57:04
Speaker
So when he as an expert tells me, you know, you can do that, then I believe him. I mean, he's the he's the one who tells me this Conan is the Stephen's mask. I can't, and I do it with him. I would never have had the idea to go there on my own or with somebody non-professional because I know I'm not good enough. you know, it's not, it's probably, maybe I would have survived, but maybe not.
00:57:28
Speaker
So I think that's also a little bit the lesson. I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to know, but you should try to to know. You should try to know by any means ah what what is your limit and you can grow it.
00:57:42
Speaker
I mean, the Dürfnir can grow by increasing the können. And that's also true for the professional life. And i have to say, we are often young people and they're very ambitious and they want to do a lot of things. And I think that's great.
00:57:55
Speaker
But then after year, they tell me, wow, I've seen everything now. want to be basically a CEO or whatever, and take over a department. And then it's like, well, you know, this is the difference of us. mean, you should probably get more experience on this and this and this before you are able to do certain things. So, yeah, there's lots of analogy there as well. And at the end of the day, to come back to the acceptance of the leader where I was mentioning before, the ones which were not accepted,
00:58:22
Speaker
Well, that's a little bit the thing. You get accepted if you can, you know, if you have the entitlement. And the the entitlement comes by very boring, you know, practicing, ah acquiring discipline and make a lot of qualified experiences. And I think that's one of the big advantages of mountaineering compared to ah corporate life.
00:58:47
Speaker
you get to make some qualified experiences because you're out there. And like your dad, you're just out there and you try it out. Sometimes you're probably in not comfortable positions or situations, but you get to know to do it. You know, like you don't only read on it, you do things. In corporate life, very often,
00:59:07
Speaker
you you don't immediate You don't have the chance to get this qualified experience. The more you have, the the easier it is to learn and you don't get this, especially if you're not you know privileged or whatever. I mean, it's really hard to get somebody to trust in you. also you know you some You don't know whether somebody thinks you can, that you're there for And so I think this qualified experience one of the most important things to learn. Anything is like do it yourself. It's like driving. You know, the first time you drive a car, you can somebody has explained it one million times. You need to do it yourself. You need to do it yourself. Yeah.
00:59:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it makes sense that you can have an expert tell you when you're ready or when you're able, like, hey, you can train a little bit and you can do the Shrek horn. and Or, you know, i mean, I've also used coaches in in ah and running my business a lot. um Yeah, but i feel I like to use business coaches, obviously, like fitness, like what the coaching we do. That's actually one of the things I think that coaches – in all areas, whether it's a guide or, or endurance coach or a business coach is, is give that validation, right? Like you, you know, you can do this, look at what you've done. You've got the background. Cause a lot of us do our instinct is to sort of self doubt and think that we can't do it. And then there's some people that are off obviously a little overconfident and that requires a different kind of coaching, but we, we, you know, you obviously see both, but what about,
01:00:40
Speaker
using yourself as that grantor of the permission because you you don't always have an expert, especially no in something like business where it's it's it's something like it has been done before, but exactly that has never been done. But you know, in reality, it never has been done anyhow. I mean, it's never exactly the same. So the whole thing is about feeling comfortable in acting in ambiguity all the time. And that's one of the major managerial skills. They they say,
01:01:10
Speaker
Especially now, you know, how do you act in this complete volatile bird and everything's unsure? and yeah Yeah, but that's one of the main traits. I mean, yeah, otherwise it doesn't need
Decisiveness and Resilience in Tough Conditions
01:01:20
Speaker
us. You know, that's what always say. I mean, just to coordinate things, you don't need you know all those highly paid people. I mean, you're you coordinate. the they Really, the difference is that you, you know,
01:01:32
Speaker
in this opaque environment, is in this volatile ah environment where you cannot anticipate anything at the end of the time of the day, you need to carry on, deliver, make decisions left, right. And that's very similar to a mountain because, i mean, at the end of the day, nowadays you have a good weather forecast. Yes, that wasn't always the case.
01:01:51
Speaker
but I mean, there can be so many things. I remember when we were were seeing you in colorado Colorado, you showed us this this this imprint of this bear.
01:02:01
Speaker
i mean, you know, I was freaking out. I was so scared of bears. We don't have them. So I was like, oh my God, the mountain is not dangerous, but this bear. And you told me the story about this cougar and this elk. So I was like, oh my God, what am I doing? That is not what I associate with alpinism. It's like all this animal. So you always need to do that. There's always something new. And I think that's the art.
01:02:23
Speaker
This agility, it's it's it's really like, just go on with it, you know? And... Stop and don't whine. You know, that's one of the things. Don't whine. That's what it is. I mean, just accept it. Either you can change it, change it. If not, accept it and do something with it. Like in a mountain. I mean, that you know, when I did the Ironman, many people said, oh, that's so great. I admire you for doing this long distance triathlon. It's fantastic. that thought, yes, of course, a lot of resilience, training and so on. Yes, it's tough.
01:02:58
Speaker
But on the other hand, you know, during this Ironman, you can stop at any given point of time and you just say, I stopped. I don't want to go on running or cycling anymore. I stop and go home. I take a shower, i eat and I go to bed.
01:03:13
Speaker
Nothing happens in my life. On a mountain. You know how often, I mean, I don't tell you, you're probably one million times more than me. You said, I would like to stop now. But the alternative is just not there. So it's like, okay, yeah, I would like to stop. My toes hurt. You know, I have headache. I'm thirsty. Everything aches. You know, whatever.
01:03:35
Speaker
You cannot. It's simply not there the option. So that's very similar. You cannot ah you can whine. Okay, doesn't really help. Maybe for a short time period it releases, but then you better shut up and suffer in silence.
01:03:50
Speaker
And the same is like in you know if something comes along and now there's some volatile interest rates up, down, political havoc, you just need to ask yourself, what can I do? I mean...
01:04:03
Speaker
yeah And then you attack that that's the whole thing. I mean, it's nothing more than that, really. And I think that's the whole that's probably something you can apply a little bit everywhere. Yeah, I think so. Non-whining attitude, I would call it.
01:04:20
Speaker
ah used to have, and i got some bad feedback ver for about two years when I was a mountain guide, I had this pin on my backpack and it said, no whining. i really did I want to have that. I would put it here in front of my office, fee everywhere, everywhere. You make coffee cups and give them to everybody.
01:04:43
Speaker
I really love it. I mean, I'm whining myself sometimes and I'm like, oh no, that's but then, you know, it's rather a little bit, but this constant whining without changing, that's something, something you know.
01:04:55
Speaker
For nothing. And I recently read something really nice that the Finns, the Finns, you know, they don't have all the, you know, that the Danes, they have this hickle lick, this, we are, we hickylic at the everything is cozy and, you know, they, um in the in the long winters, they have everything very cozy with candles and and they cuddle up at home and it's really nice. Yeah.
01:05:21
Speaker
And the the things, they have a different concept. It's really nice as well. I like it. They call it Sisu. And it means that you acknowledge risks without dramatizing them and that you prepare instead of hope and you just continue to act even with the conditions getting worse and changing. You just go on. And I really like that somehow. You know, it's the complete opposite of the whining situation.
01:05:49
Speaker
So misha I would like to, you know, I'm a complete promoter of the Sisu. I feel a little bit Finnish here. Yeah, I like that as well. And it's not in this part of my, I'm looking for it in my notes because I i had something that it was similar to this that had come come up for me.
01:06:13
Speaker
oh what what makes people miserable is that when people What makes people miserable is when events are controlling them and what makes people happy is when they're controlling events.
01:06:26
Speaker
So it's this idea of of agency and like yes and just taking taking action. Yeah, exactly. Be the master of your own destiny. And, you know, to come back, we we talked about Victor Franklick. That's the whole thing.
01:06:40
Speaker
Exactly. That's what he said. you know now Even if I'm in a worse condition, nobody can tell me what I'm thinking, how I'm inclined to ah react or how I'm inclined to feel and what I'm making out of it.
01:06:55
Speaker
And ah this is just amazing. When he wrote a book there. Yeah. In a concentration camp where some of his campmates were being sent to the gas chambers. And I mean, just like it's ah it doesn't get worse, right, than than that. And he found in that situation a way to control his reaction. He found purpose.
01:07:18
Speaker
he because He found the purpose. This whole purpose thing, which is very popular nowadays, but that was his... He had the purpose and he actually studied people who did not have any purpose, thus people who knew, for example, that their entire families were not there anymore and they didn't have this purpose anymore. They died earlier than other people who still had this hope. And what many people don't know, but Viktor Frankl, actually before the war, he was a suicide... He created the suicide prevention ah department oh wow
01:07:49
Speaker
For young people, mainly men, who in the midst between the First and Second World War, many, many young men committed suicide, either because they came back from the war and they were completely traumatized and there were no psychologists or anything like that at the time who helped them.
01:08:05
Speaker
or not post-traumatic orders, know what they had or in end, then they didn't find work. They were not included in society. There were super unemployment rates, obviously, in between the two wars. So there was an extremely high suicidal so ah rate of suicides in Vienna. And Viktor Frankl actually took them and he had this program of together with them, with this therapy, the logos therapy, which he developed.
01:08:32
Speaker
He developed, you know, the sense of purpose and how to save them and how to not commit suicide. So this was the whole basis of his thoughts, actually, was before the war. That's quite interesting because it really comes back to this purpose thing. Yeah.
01:08:47
Speaker
I think that this is also very interesting to dive into. i'm going off of my script here, but it's so interesting and it's such a good conversation.
01:08:58
Speaker
Where is the difference between the the kind of doing something because you feel ah a duty to do it or you you're just you're motivated. Like you you have a strong will and you're like, I'm going to do this because i said I was going to. or Versus, it's like that's more of this duty responsibility. and i I felt like Victor Franco was talking more about those kinds of purposes like people had a a duty to their family or they had a they had a ah business back home or or someone to take care of those kinds of things but there's another kind of motivation which is more of this which is and i'm not sure where franco would have fit in here
01:09:46
Speaker
is Like for me, it's, you know, uphill athlete because i get it's a vehicle for me to help my community of of mountain people, right? that's That's how I see this as ah as ah as fitting into my life. And it's sort of like my my heart pulls me forward.
01:10:03
Speaker
And it's it it's very abstract. And I mean, I think a lot of businesses try to figure out how do we get our our teams, our employees, our leadership to...
01:10:17
Speaker
to be pulled by, i mean, it sounds silly to like love insurance, but, you know, through, through, and you know, financial products like insurance, you're helping people to, you know, hedge against risk and, you know, that would otherwise destroy their property or their business or whatever you're, you're insuring them for.
01:10:39
Speaker
How does, how do you think about that? How does this, what is the intersection between what is this sort of like this determination versus like, I love this and I want to do it and the mountains and business, how does that all fit together in your mind?
01:10:57
Speaker
Well, I think basically what we are talking about is two already two types of motivations, which, you know, it's the intrinsic and ex extrinsic
Motivation and Purpose in Adversity
01:11:06
Speaker
motivation. I think the intrinsic motivation is really something which you generously appreciate yourself. a pregenous generously appreciate yourself for yourself.
01:11:19
Speaker
And that the the easy test to find out whether it's intrinsic or not is, would you do it and enjoy it the same if you didn't tell about what you did to other people? Now in our world of the social media and everything, that's a very valid question. How much of the things would people really do if they weren't allowed to tell anybody about it?
01:11:42
Speaker
How much? Would they climb Everest? Many of them, if they were not allowed to tell anybody that they were out there, I'm not sure how many would go. So that's not an intrinsic. and You could say, yes, the intrinsic motivation is to show off. Okay, that's another thing. But I'm like this pull, you know, which you feel you want to do something. And, you know, I think...
01:12:05
Speaker
Alpinists know that or mountain lovers know that. ah you You have this, you feel it. you need that For me, it's like if I haven't seen a mountain for one month or so, I need to at least go out for a hike and go back to Switzerland. And, you know, it's it's it's it's in it's intrinsic. But the same is, you know... If you do something really for your own will and pleasure that because you really like it or help people or whatever it is, it's intrinsic. Extrinsic is really you get something from outside and you're motivated by The easiest thing is the salary, the award, the you know, something. which And that's obviously a very valid motivation as well because it's never unidimensional because with this reward, you might do then something which you intrinsically love, you know.
01:12:52
Speaker
the and the the the difficult part for companies is to to to get this intrinsic motivation in the workforce. And sometimes you feel that. If you have a project and you really, really like it, that's intrinsic. Then you don't think about your salary, your bonus, whatever that you get in the work. You really want to get it going, see the success, celebrate with the team.
01:13:20
Speaker
That's why it's so important to celebrate those successes afterwards, because that really triggers this intrinsic ah motivation versus then afterwards you get a awarded, you're LinkedIn, you get the the best employee of the month or whatever, which is also valid. I'm not saying one is good and bad, it's just different. And we need to distinguish the two. In the corporate world, obviously, the extra you know the the seller is one of the most important things or most important people go to work because they yeah they have to earn their living ah for for obvious reasons. So I think that's... that's ah
01:13:54
Speaker
If you think about the professional alpinists, they match that, you know, at the end of the day, they have this pool. Depends how much is ah left over after all the stress of posting all in the media, social media and so on, because then that's again, this expression, you know,
01:14:10
Speaker
But that's another that's another thing. But I think that's a little bit
Corporate Responsibility and Work-Life Balance
01:14:14
Speaker
the thing. And coming back to the purpose, I mean, all the companies try to define some sort of purpose because it's easier if you know why you're working. Most people would say, you well, to earn my living. Yes. But I think it makes a difference.
01:14:26
Speaker
And you you alluded to that. I think in my ah industry, it's really easy to find a purpose because... you know Imagine society with no ah insurance ah industry. That's quite that's quite sad. ah I mean, insurance came into being because of this um cooperative approach. That means in some village, you know in the Balois history, there was the Glarus, it's a city near Zurich.
01:14:57
Speaker
It burned down 160 years ago. And then, you know, there was no insurance. So obviously, you know, then people put funds together, how to rebuild the city, how to, you know and they created the That's the history of an insurance. created the fund and then, you know, it's a mutually so ah mutualization of the funds. So that's actually a very, ah to solve a social problem, a problem of a society, and you know, a cow dies and the poor,
01:15:25
Speaker
you know, peasant or farmer couldn't ah afford a second cow, then the the the village would save and, you know, give him another cow. Otherwise, the family, I mean, I'm now a little bit exaggerating the situation, but that's that's where insurance comes from. So it has a role in society. Now, obviously, not everything is um always only positive because the way how it was distributed and so on, there are many things which you could also say is not so much the purpose. But generally speaking, I think insurance, it's easy to to say you have a good purpose. And if you do it nicely, in a good and proper way, you really play an active role in society. So I think in my industry, it's easy.
01:16:09
Speaker
I don't know about other industries. And there are certain industries, not sure whether you want to work there, if you have this this ambition or this, ah you know, sort of personal wanting, having, finding your own purpose if you work for some, I don't know, of the not so good industries, for example. So for me, it's really, I think it's it's easy to define that. And also that's what I repeat always to my staff because it's ah it's a nice industry to be in actually.
01:16:39
Speaker
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I think that that makes sense. I mean, you know as you know, I spent, whatever, 23 years working at Patagonia, and they had a ah very clear purpose, and everybody knew what it was, and it's one of these companies that has been talked about so much ah and that I've been used an example in this way. And it it really just originated from the very genuine perspective sense of of of for kind of responsibility, but, you know, it's it's this, I think one of the things I really admire about the Chouinards and both Yvonne Melinda Chouinard is they look at at the environmental issue, you know, whatever, 20, 30 years ago and felt overwhelmed, but they took that Sisu approach mentality and like, yeah, we're going to work towards a solution anyway. We're not going to give up. We're not going to just sit here and not do anything. We're going to do something and we're going to to move forward. And and yeah, they they they over time accomplish all kinds of incredible things. so that's ah That's a fantastic story. And I think that's one of the ones where it's really genuinely started with their passion, a hobby also. I mean,
01:17:51
Speaker
climbing, you know and then they just did their own hooks and everything because it wasn't there. I mean, all of a sudden, not over the many, many years, they became billionaires. And then they were really, i mean, have, you know, investing in a strategic way in like metro, uh,
01:18:09
Speaker
resources and reserves and the and and and what i might I admire most is and they they're living a good life, you know their life. It's not giving up one for the other. And that was always because you asked me before how i combined the corporate and the and the montaneer.
01:18:27
Speaker
I think that, for me, was one of the things I always wanted to accomplish. And I think it was it's okay how it works out. That, you know, it's easy to... I mean, easy. It's not easy if you have no money, ah but it's easier if you...
01:18:41
Speaker
If you just if if it just went to, you know, I wasn't probably good enough to become a ah professional, but to do one thing, it's probably more efficient, but to to play on two ah sides of this in this life and do both above average,
01:19:00
Speaker
That was what, you know, I wanted to have a good life and have a good career. And I think ah the Patagonia, they had, you know, they wrote this book, Let My People Go Surfing. i'm sure you read it And and that's that's a little bit the thing. I mean, they they worked hard, you know, but then, I mean, they had a good life, you know, and I think that's a good thing. You can work hard and have it and throw on your passions as well, because that That's a little bit, the you know, the the tricky thing. How do you organize that? And I always it admire people who were able to do both ah the most.
01:19:36
Speaker
And I can say for all the, like, things that I've read about them that come, sound like they're out of a PR press release or something, it's all true. Like, all my experiences that I lived, you know, like, if it's ah if it's um if it's a morning on a Monday and the surf is really good, guess what? There's nobody in the office.
01:19:54
Speaker
yeah But when but then the deadline is due and that the yeah the thing has to get shipped or whatever, and it's you know Saturday or Friday night, everyone's in the office. They show up. it ist sort of Yeah, they show up and they just get it. yeah And you know and they know that they they know that there's this give and take. And that's how...
01:20:12
Speaker
like the The reality of life isn't always like Monday through Friday, nine to five. No, exactly. it's it happens Life happens when it happens. Often it happens on Friday at five o'clock too. like when all that All the bad news comes out or whatever. So I think that that's important that people are on that. And I noticed this with my, it's one of the things I look for in like, as we develop our coaching team internally with our endurance coaches at Appalachia, looking for those people,
01:20:39
Speaker
that it's, it's fine to have boundaries and say, you know, i have, this is when I'm going to be available to my athletes and this is when I'm not and stuff. and you know i But I always ask, well, what if such and such and and the ones that are like, well, yeah, in that case I would go the extra mile because that's, you know and, and,
01:20:56
Speaker
Not that i I want them to overextend themselves, but I just want the kind of person that is going to go the extra mile. and and And also understand that there are times when there's weeks when everything goes super well with your athletes, when coaching is pretty easy. And then there other weeks where it's really hard because all of a sudden, you know, all these things seem to go
Empowering Women and Diversity in Leadership
01:21:14
Speaker
in waves. yeah I want to connect back to um something that the American listeners won't rec won't know about or recognize, but you've done a lot of work with SOS Kinderdorf, which is I don't know exactly what the equivalent of the US would be, but it would be something like, I think what we have is called Salvation Army and it's kind of a... Yeah, it's just helping kids abroad. I mean, like yeah kids in in countries where they are not so privileged usually. yeah
01:21:41
Speaker
And you've done, you know, you're in this incredible, you know, accomplished role, I don't know, you know, in the insurance industry.
01:21:54
Speaker
How do you how do you see that connection? Like where where is the connection between like being a leader in business and and doing this kind of work? It's like whether it's a volunteer work or... It's pro bono. Yeah, it's all pro bono. Well, I think it's a little bit of a, you know, you always think how could you leverage a little bit what you this tip you're giving back, um but also not only to, you know, hang around and and and and not do anything, but just, I mean, fundraising is also good, but how can you leverage your know-how somewhere else? And ah typically in NGOs as an accomplished corporate manager, it's quite a,
01:22:36
Speaker
ah you can quite ah support ah because typically NGOs, you know, they don't have a lot of the governance which we're used to or what I found, for example, ah very interesting is I wouldn't have thought of fundraising having so much in common with a distribution channel of insurance. I mean, if you lead a tight agents force and you train them to sell insurance policies, ah non-life life insurance, they need to go out and you all have a narrative, a bridge, they are trained, need a good story and then a good product, obviously. And then they go out and you manage them as a sales team ah with incentives and everything. So that's very much the same. I mean, if you're a fundraiser for whatever NGO, um you go out there, you have a narrative, you have a story to tell you a good product, hopefully, and you train those people right and then they come back and hopefully return with funds. Same with processes, you know, they need to be very lean in NGOs because you need to also fulfill certain requirements because if too much of it goes to admin fees, then you're not credible.
01:23:45
Speaker
As an NGO, if you waste half of your money for your own your admin, that's probably not a good idea. So things like that, you know, so you can actually help shape ah those organizations which usually don't have access to expensive consultants or leaders from companies.
01:24:04
Speaker
ah companies like with the experience we have. So I i thought that's quite that's quite fruitful and I wouldn't have thought that it's that, ah yeah, that there's many similarities at the end.
01:24:17
Speaker
you've You've done a lot of work with something called Generation CEO. What is that and how does that come tie in? That's actually an association. I've joined...
01:24:30
Speaker
12 years ago, something like that, of women. It was founded by by ah by a gentleman, a headhunter at the time, i think in 2007, who realized that there's a lack of women leaders too for succession planning. And there were more and more calls for women. And I like i can say for myself, I've always been very...
01:24:52
Speaker
but like the only woman in the boards or anything like that, because I'm around for many years. i have a corporate career of 30 years now. And so he decided to have this, as so like at the time it wasn't an association yet, but he said, let's have a sort of a club, a get together of,
01:25:08
Speaker
very highly qualified women ah in certain positions. And it's called Generation CEO. That meant who have the potential to become a CEO, like the next generation CEOs. And I was accepted because you have to apply. And I was...
01:25:25
Speaker
and be recommended is a purely German-speaking association out of Germany, but then they extended to Austria and Switzerland because also German-speaking. And I joined there, I was accepted, and it is an exceptionally nice community. Now we are already a lot, we are 240, I think. But it's a very nice community of very high-level managers from different industries, women only, um and with a very trustful relationship.
01:25:54
Speaker
And it autocorrected itself at the end. There was this association, but now it's really... There's a lot of ah things going on really created by the members themselves. I've been in the in the selection committee ah to ah for the women to apply. And there we have, for example, also created the whole process, how you apply, which wasn't at the beginning very professional. But now we have yeah video applications, a system. It's very rigorous, a very good process.
01:26:25
Speaker
And it it really lives by the members. I i really enjoyed it because it allows me to um exchange with ah fellow women in similar positions, which you wouldn't meet otherwise because they're of different industries in completely different cities. I have ah really gained great friends there. ah Also some of them, which i go to the mountains. and But what is really nice that it has this self-created dynamics. One thing we have started a couple of years ago is um organized trips. If so one of us is in another country.
01:27:06
Speaker
and has access to local leaders, politicians, ah access because you're the CEO of this country or whatever, then we would organize a trip in this specific country for the for the women and then have this exclusive, not exclusive in terms of luxury, but exclusive access to leaders in that country. And I've been in Tunisia there.
01:27:26
Speaker
And I myself, I organized the trip to Luxembourg last year. So where we met, you know, ah the people of the financial world, female ah wine producer, the female director of the local international art museum, local Luxembourg, MUDAM. So we had ah put up a really nice program and I brought them here in this office and I made them...
01:27:51
Speaker
also meet all my women leader of Palo Alto here in Luxembourg. So those are the things so which I really enjoy. And nowadays there are some really ah like CEOs in this association. yeah You know, one of the things that I learned from the Chouinards at Patagonia, and he writes about this in his books as well, is most of he leans heavily to hiring women throughout the Patagonia organization. And i have to say, like, that's been a something that I've learned and I've applied within a bill athlete where I'm really trying to not only just have half of our coaches and, you know, management team and marketing team, the people making the decisions, guiding our little organization, but now we're, it's like, I'm the only man. And one of the, one of the things
01:28:43
Speaker
That I, that the reason, so when I was younger and in mostly in university, I noticed how hard my female students, you know, co-students were working and they were very good.
01:28:59
Speaker
And later as we got like further and further along in that education process, I noticed also that it got harder and harder for them. um this sort of built-in sexism that that was still existing this time and still exists many places now.
01:29:16
Speaker
When I later, now i if I have to hire, like find a lawyer or a dentist or a doctor, i will purposely seek out a woman. in that role because I i think, well, that she had to be like 20% better than everybody else to achieve the same thing. So she's going to be really good and I'm going to be able to really trust her.
01:29:38
Speaker
There's another... narrative that is being pushed frequently these days. And that is this idea. and maybe this is just an American thing. This is, and I don't want this podcast to get political by any means, but there is this narrative that you'll hear where people will say, oh ah that woman is a diversity hire. She's not, a you know,
01:29:59
Speaker
better qualified men, but but they had to hire a woman because they needed to beat their diversity targets or something. What do you say to that kind of narrative that people when people say things like that? How do you how do you respond as ah as a female? I'm already glad you said that women have to fight harder to get where they are because yes, ah I agree. ah the The thing is, I can tell you what I do when I hire people. And I've just hired, because I'm in a transformation here, so my executive committee here, there are also some fairly new hires, both of them men.
01:30:35
Speaker
And not because I privileged men. On the contrary, i but I want to make sure I take the best person. ah That's for me as a manager. I wouldn't do myself a favor if I take somebody who who is less competent because of any other criteria. However, however, what I really intend... insist, and that's not the service I always get, is that Hentai Tampas propose me also a list of women, not only the first list, 15 men. And that's not the norm yet. So I always send back the first list and say, give me some women. And they always or very often come back and say, I don't find them, it's so hard.
01:31:12
Speaker
And have to say, well, yes, okay, make an extra effort. I don't care, that's your job. There are women out there, we're not in medieval ages, in the dark, uh, where you women are working. Here Luxembourg, I mean, you can you know shop around in France and in Belgium. It's French speaking.
01:31:29
Speaker
I mean, if you do an effort. So then I myself went to the LinkedIn for of myself and I proposed some names within half an hour of research. And i said, look, that's your job. So this is what... But at the end, I had two lists.
01:31:42
Speaker
I had two final candidates, a woman and a man. I picked the man because at the end of the day, he was the best but candidate for me. So that needs to be a very objective, fact-based decision. However, the pipeline needs to be the same. And that's what the main problem is. And also within the companies, where you I like to have a pipeline, you know, and and everything developed, the talents ourselves. That's not reality, especially if you're smaller.
01:32:10
Speaker
But There is no pipeline. you know If you cannot pick up the same amount of people, then by definition, there's always the same who get help get to the top. So that's, I think, one of the major things we need to make sure is that if we hire, that we have this, maybe not the same amount. i would also accept less, but you need to have women there because otherwise it's so easy not to have them in the in the sample which you get. And as for the ah what you were mentioning, the diversity thing, it's not an American thing, it's all over. And I think, you know, the the interesting thing is when I was younger and people said, you
01:32:52
Speaker
We're talking about quotas, you know, quotas in boards and so on. I was always against it because I was young and I said, well, exactly, you know, we don't need quotas. It will happen automatically in the course of time.
01:33:05
Speaker
Now, 30 years later, I can tell you I'm pro-quota. Now, if I get the sheet storm, that's fine. I can deal with that. But in certain positions, you need first to break the structure,
01:33:19
Speaker
by force, if it doesn't happen otherwise, by quarters. And I'm talking now purely so ah non-executive ah boards, not executive boards, ah for the moment being, in my example, because the non-executive boards, the recruitment procedures are more opaque than for executive boards. So if I hire a manager, it's, you know, there's a profile out there or the headhunter is chasing ah your manager executive board member, like the CEO or the CTO, CFO, et cetera, CFO.
01:33:51
Speaker
If you hire the non-executive boards, they are usually not, I mean, now more and more, but there was no process. I mean, this was a person sitting in the non-executive board and saying, well, whom could I take of my friends here? Who would be, you know, and there was no, I'm talking now 20 years back, there was not a lot of governance, right?
01:34:13
Speaker
fit and proper requirements, no not so really strict to enforce. So basically it was a you know it was a an award you got after your career and since the only careers were there were the male people and then so by definition it's only male. So that is a self-triggered propelling process because there is no process.
01:34:35
Speaker
So that's why to break this pattern, you can only have a forced situation. And once it's broken, it's okay, because then you're again in there are women and men.
01:34:46
Speaker
So I think that was essential, and you can see it now. It's not 50-50 yet, but in some countries it was 30% compulsory in France, Germany, and it worked. All of a sudden, there are those women, oh, you you you could say they are not all completely unqualified and all they are for... the the the quota, some of them there might. Yes, there are certainly some women out there, they wouldn't be there without the quota, but have a wild guess. Most of them are are qualified because it's really difficult to put somebody completely unqualified. So for me personally, that's a non-topic. If somebody would ever see you there for the for the gender, I can only laugh because then look at the CV and the qualification. It's usually the double of anybody else. So yes, it's true. You have to overperform to justify and to to be really a little bit...
01:35:40
Speaker
immunized against such um things. But frankly speaking, I don't care. And I personally, I experienced how nicely it changes the atmosphere in a positive, very interactive and very productive atmosphere if it's mixed. I'm not saying only women. I'm not saying only men. It's really this interaction. It's just a nicer atmosphere. And I've experienced that once in an unconscious way when I was invited to a leadership
01:36:11
Speaker
um ah leadership seminar in one of my previous companies for managers. And it was a top executive leadership er training for three days from the London School of Economics.
01:36:26
Speaker
And after we were 24 people, and after a day I thought there's something different than usually at those meetings. Something is better. And I couldn't figure out what it was.
01:36:39
Speaker
And then all of a sudden I counted and I found out there were eight women. And that was completely odd for me because usually ah all alone in these meetings, I mean, all those group pictures, i it's always me, maybe a second woman, and then many, many black suits.
01:36:56
Speaker
That's the finance industry. and And I thought, that's really interesting because they always scientifically talk about this 30%, which then changes the the dynamics in a group. 30%, you're not a minority anymore. You are not...
01:37:14
Speaker
um you're not not everybody's aware of you if you're the only one you go out and grab a coffee everybody knows this person now went out and grabbed a coffee and comes back if you assert you're not a minority nobody realizes you anymore you're just included you're mingling you know And I figured that's really funny that I didn't even refer, I didn't even realize there are eight women and 16 men. It was only afterwards when I figured what is different. Why is it nicer? Why is it more constructive? And also the speaking time was different. Because if you're the only woman, you always get overtalked. Anyhow, you cannot imagine it's how much I talk.
01:37:52
Speaker
But it happens. You just get overtalked. Nobody listens. you know It's like, yeah, that happens. It's not because everybody's mean. it's That's how it is in a group dynamic. ah And with this 30%, that doesn't happen. And that really was for me such a turning point where I thought, well, this scientifically or this recommendation must have some scientific proof because it's true. It makes it does something to to it to a group.
01:38:22
Speaker
It does something to a yeah to ah the dynamics of a group.
01:38:28
Speaker
I want to connect this back to the the permission. no How can we give, you know, how can I as a man, but how can we as as a community give women more permission to be in these leadership roles, both in the boardroom, but also in the mountains?
01:38:49
Speaker
I think it's a lot, but what I'm experiencing a lot is that women, and that's a little bit of a stereotype, but it's true, they underestimate themselves a little bit. and that's But in for example, in the jobs, if you offer...
01:39:06
Speaker
a project or an additional job or whatever to man. And that happened many times. I said, would you like to take on this project or something? The typical response I get would be, yes, and ah would I get a salary rise or what's my new title? Or yes, of course. yeah And if you do the same with a woman, she would say, are you sure I can do it?
01:39:29
Speaker
Are you really sure I can do that? And then my answer, my standard answer is, well, I would never ask you if I wasn't sure. I wouldn't think you can do it. And that's very typical. So what can we do as leaders?
01:39:41
Speaker
And that's probably the same in the mountains because you always, I mean, I told you my experience. I wouldn't have dared to just go to the Shrekron, but I wanted somebody to give me a little bit of a comfort. Maybe it's also the risked version of women. Yeah.
01:39:55
Speaker
themselves But there is this little bit, that doesn't mean that we are more cowardice or anything. That's not, it's it's something about self-assessment and risk-taking maybe we that's different. And there is this study, I think the Österreichische Altenfragen, the Austrian Alpena Association, I think they did this study with the avalanche propensity of people. ah There's like 80% of the, more than 80, 80, 90% of the avalanche incidences where people die or are in avalanches are men. And they said, well, okay, there are more men doing skiing tours. Yeah, but nowadays it's 50-50 55-45.
01:40:29
Speaker
But it's nearly the same amount of women going ski touring and you probably can confirm than men. So why is it still that 90%? Well, because the risk-taking is different. There's this deep ah slope and they're like, ah okay, let's give it a try and go down. Yeah.
01:40:44
Speaker
Women wouldn't. So there is a difference of risk-taking perception. And I think this entitlement, this permission, sometimes that has to do with that.
01:40:57
Speaker
that you you're not sure and so you you might not take the risk or you might need a certain and you know confirmation confirmation by somebody else and then you you feel better. Maybe it's that, but I've made this experience really in corporate life and also with applications.
01:41:14
Speaker
You get applications, you know it's described the task and you get it from male applicants and they fulfill half applications. And they apply. And the woman, you would tell you, well, there's one line. And I didn't do that yet, so I cannot apply. And that's that's really, that's ah that's a gender bias somehow. Why? i don't know. But it it is it is that way. Yeah.
01:41:37
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think we can we can help by just being aware of it, right? I mean, it's it's the same. Aware and encourage. you know Encourage. It's the same with negotiating for salaries.
01:41:48
Speaker
Very rarely women would do that. um And then they get a better, worse salary. You need to speak out. So you need to encourage. And if you know that, then ah yes, that needs to be made explicit. yeah What is the connection for you between the the confidence gained in the mountains and the confidence gained in having these, you know, positions and experiences and opinions that you have ah in your professional
Lessons from Sports and Mountaineering
01:42:18
Speaker
life. Is there a connection? Does one feed the other? I think, I think absolutely. Whether it's only mountains or sports in general,
01:42:26
Speaker
I don't know, I think it's sports in general, but mountains obviously has a tick ah of a more extreme or potentially more dangerous sport. But but i've um because I really love sports and I think for young people, especially for young women, I always had the feeling it gives them so much self-confidence, especially in the teenage years or early years where you really don't know who you are and so on. And sports helps you in this...
01:42:53
Speaker
time to be a self-confident person, also in terms of body, self-awareness and so on. If you look at a young basketball player or ah athlete young athletes, and that is also for the mountains, they have this self-confidence and they develop it over the years.
01:43:11
Speaker
achievements, you know, and they what they can do and what they are what they are able to do. And then afterwards, and that was intuitive, I always thought there must be some link to then afterwards, like how you behave in corporate life, whether you're self-confident or not. And then So I am always an advocate for sport and I thought it might have even a good impact for young girls to be better ah managers or more successful and self-confident. And then I found an American study.
01:43:40
Speaker
um They did American Sport the Association or something and They did actually a study over 20 years. So it was a long study where they observed young girls who did sports, like volleyball or something like that, but really quite engaged, not once a week, like really engaged young sports women, ladies, girls at the time.
01:44:06
Speaker
How many of them would then, and what what would they become? And there was an exceptional high percentage of those girls who were successful in sports in their teenage and young adult life would become ah leaders, managers.
01:44:22
Speaker
Because in sports, and that's again true for mountaineering as well, either you have a team sport, then you learn all these team dynamics. You learn, however, and that's true for all sports, resilience, and you know how to deal with failure.
01:44:38
Speaker
On the mountain or on the basketball field, I mean, you fail. By definition, you fail. Now you can go and cry stop, or you can go on and train harder and do it again. And that's a little bit the whining thing which we referred to before.
01:44:53
Speaker
And I think that's something which carries over. i mean, A, it gives yourself confidence because you did it at the end or not, but that's also learning.
01:45:04
Speaker
to To go on and all this attitude and this confidence that you can do something in something which is really hard more than anybody else. That I'm sure that carries over to to you who you are and how you act.
01:45:19
Speaker
So yes, if you ask me, not specifically mountaineering, but there you have this extra you know risk or whatever you want to call it. ah Yes, it certainly will. I mean, this study actually ah was the proof of the pudding ah that ah those women, I think it's 80% of them or so don't nail me on the results, but it was an exceptionally high percentage of those ah who then became top managers, leaders and had this accountability also, you know, discipline, accountability.
01:45:49
Speaker
Yeah. One of the reasons that I started this Voice of the Mountains is, you know, it's it's not ah it's part of our podcast, but it's not about training at all. it's these And I have this thesis, and I think you touched on it earlier. one of the reasons that mountains are so powerful is you can't just step off the bike or get off and go home and take a shower, right? And what that forces is that forces you to realize how much more capable you are than you realized. Because you get into situations, you're like, I wish this was over.
01:46:18
Speaker
I wish I was in bed. Like I wish I could take a shower right now. And it's like, I have a long ways to go. And it's and in my own climbing career, I realized like how I could push that in in increments, in small steps, as you said in the beginning. But I could push that so much further out than I ever even imagined when I started. Like, I didn't even know. It's like that was the going to the moon. and And I was just trying to do the the next step. But I couldn't go directly to the to the farthest reaches. I had to take all the steps to get there. And i think that that's part of the beauty of the mountains is that you...
01:46:58
Speaker
that you know Whether it's running around Mont Blanc or or climbing Mont Blanc, you can't just like say, I'm just going to go home. It just doesn't work that way. and And we are so much more capable. And I think, as yeah as you said, women are so much more capable.
01:47:15
Speaker
generally and and and and often in so many ways, then they then they give themselves credit for or realize that I think this giving of permission is is such an important idea. And I just think that, you know, there's so much media and attention on things like football or these, you know, basketball or these sports like that. And, you know, I like those sports. It's fun to watch sometimes.
01:47:40
Speaker
And it takes grit and you fail and all these things. But it's, it's for me still like the mountaineering community, the mountain community in general just has so much to teach society about grit and yeah how far we can push ourselves and how much we're actually capable of that. You know, a one hour game, just our 90 minute games. Yeah.
01:48:00
Speaker
is is never going to teach. And I really feel passionate about that. and I really want us as a community to like, I think we have an obligation to sort of step into that and be like, and I think Rhyno Misner, he's been, he's been like exhibit A of doing this really well in all his career where he's just like pushed himself out further and further and further and provided this incredible inspiration for, you know, millions of people.
01:48:23
Speaker
And we all have a responsibility to do that, whether we're amateurs or professional. I think it's it's really like, yeah, this is this is just a step-by-step process. and No, absolutely. I completely i completely agree. And what I really like, to come back also to the women, I really like to see...
01:48:41
Speaker
How many young women mountaineers are out there doing great things which you wouldn't have solved? And, you know, between them, with a grit, which I thought that's a new generation. And that's really something which changes in society.
01:48:56
Speaker
Those young ladies up the mountain, I mean, that's really something. i know I follow them all on Instagram and have a look and I really like that. So that's fantastic, yeah. Yeah, it's great to see that. Something you wouldn't have found 40 years ago or something like that. And they get sponsorship and they get awareness. That's the thing. It's interesting, you know.
01:49:15
Speaker
I mean, in one of one of my interviews, in my thesis, I had with Arlene Bloom, ah the U.S. climber. And she's a fantastic woman. She must now be in her, ah well, late 70s, think she, yeah. She landed the first all-female ascent of Annapurna, among others. Exactly. And she climbed Mount McKinley also with a pure female expedition. And they all said, i that's a feminist thing. And she said, well, actually not. I wanted to climb it with men, but we were not allowed to join at the time. I mean, it was a pure you know male expedition.
01:49:54
Speaker
ah club. So we had to organize it ourselves in order to be able to get up there. Otherwise, I wouldn't have, you know, I would have joined men, but they didn't take me. And it was funny because she was always, there are these families and they wanted just to stay between them. No, they didn't, but there was no other means. So I thought, well, this has been a long way since then. And yes, the Anapuna climb was in, I think, in the 70s, 78. So that's not that far. I mean, you know, we were both alive and yeah It's not that far. remember 1870. Exactly. So and now you have those young women and they get sponsorship and they have the nearly, not yet the same, but there's ah yeah they're catching up in awareness. and and then
01:50:37
Speaker
So I think that's fantastic. Yeah. And I remember when I was still working on the as a Patagonia ambassador, having this discussion internally as an ambassador team, like if we should be 50-50 men, women. And we we had a lot of women on our team compared to some other teams because Patagonia has, I think, always been very pro-female.
01:50:55
Speaker
And they ah the we had to, like is with the quota, that was basically the same conclusions. Like we have to break this system and the only way we're going to do it is we hold ourselves to what we think should be the standard, you know, because there was surprisingly, know, there's always this discussion. And I think like to, to reset the system, sometimes you need to, I don't know, not break it wholly, like not destroy it, like destroy society and I'll go back and live in caves and then rebuild from the ground up, but just like break this one thing. And like, you know,
01:51:32
Speaker
Until it becomes normal, you know. one of the exact It's like the belt. You remember still when we drove around the cars without the belt. And, you know, if you had asked anybody, do you want to wear a belt? No, of course not, because it's uncomfortable. At the beginning, it was fixed. Nobody wanted it. Everybody said, I didn't die before. I won't die now.
01:51:50
Speaker
So why have it? So it had to be enforced. Now, maybe that's not the same example, but you know, those things nowadays, I mean, you know that the um the rate of accidents, of fatal accidents and and and all those injuries, they drop substantially. I mean, it's not even comparable, although there are more cars and they're faster. Because of the belt. So nowadays, nobody would ever complain about the belt. It's just there. So initially, some of those things, they need to have this little push to be enforced and then you can live and you you live in a better you know situation at the end of the day. Absolutely.
01:52:24
Speaker
So if we go back to that young girl on the rocks or the young woman humbled on Juana Potosi or, you know, climbing your 48 summits and in Switzerland or researching the expedition leaders or being a board member and CEO, what is the one thread that connects all those different versions of you?
01:52:47
Speaker
whom Moms Red. I mean, there's always the mountains, obviously. But I think it's ah it's the curiosity. I think that's the major... I think I was always curious to do something the next. And that alludes
Curiosity and Passion as Drivers of Success
01:53:02
Speaker
to everything. The mountains, the corporate field. You know, I'm also passionate scuba diver and scuba diving instructor. It's not only limited. I mean, the biggest passion is the mountains. I just come back from a...
01:53:12
Speaker
from a liveaboard in the Philippines, 10 days on a ship, scuba diving every day, four days, four four times. ah so it's this curiosity combined with passion. And what what I also learned is the more, you know, the the passion comes from the frequency also, the action,
01:53:34
Speaker
And let me let people put that in... I mean, you can like mountains, you know, but if you if you if you're never in the mountains and you don't regularly go there, it's not that you forget it.
01:53:47
Speaker
But the more you're out there, I mean, isn't it the the fact that then you get really... You want to do more and you have another idea and then you're like, another day would be great, but now have to go back.
01:53:58
Speaker
When I'm here in the office and I'm completely absorbed in the office work... Sometimes I forget even about it and I don't even take the the pleasure out of thinking about the mountains and the mountain tour and sometimes I'm afraid I'm not passionate anymore anymore but it's actually, it comes via the action. that The action increases the passion. Like in in the in German we have the saying, know, mit dem Essen kommt der Appetit, which is when you eat you get even more hungry because it's so good.
01:54:27
Speaker
I think that's a little bit the thing. So I'm not sure whether that's a common thread but the curiosity... You know, the curiosity opened so many interesting things. I was always interested interested in in seeing more and and doing more.
01:54:42
Speaker
But then you have to engage to a certain level to get to a certain level to have this Good appetite, that which is which is increased all the time. So yeah, I think ah passing think and everything I did and I do is is is I like somehow. It's not that I always like everything. You don't like suffering on a mountain. You know what we just said. I don't always like my work. That's completely normal. But generally speaking, i I don't think I sold my soul and I didn't do anything completely without what I hated for a long time period.
01:55:17
Speaker
That's a great summary. And I think, you know, there's one of the things I really like about, you know, you and our friendship over the years is you've been one of these people that I've been able to, you know, we've known each other, even just not, even though we don't see each other very often, but 20 years now. or twenty yeah it's the first match is Yeah. And You were always able to work hard and like advance in your career. And you were also able to allow yourself to enjoy life. And I think that there's a lot of people, and maybe this comes from me as an athlete. I had always had this, like, I just have to work hard and work harder. And I'm kind of, I didn't give myself permission to enjoy everything, anything outside of that. And I had to i had to eat really strictly and I had to sleep really strictly and I didn't drink alcohol and I didn't stay up late and I slept this many hours and da-da-da. Like everything was super, super disciplined.
01:56:15
Speaker
And at a certain time, you wake up and you're like, wow, like, you know, my friend Christine, she's like scuba diving in the Maldives now and like, you know, so or the British Virgin Islands or I don't know what. And and you start to think like she's – there's There's a lot of value in being able to do both and being able to balance like that that work ethic and that whether it's an intrinsic or extrinsic motivation, but you're working hard, you're creating things, you're adding value to the teams around you and to society. And, you know, you're
01:56:51
Speaker
going and skiing the Hout route or going to your favorite resort on the weekend or going somewhere and scuba diving. And I think that this is a balance that a lot of us really ah struggle to find, like how to be good,
01:57:04
Speaker
you know, as you said, above average, but I think you're a little more than above average in in in ah more than one realm. And and that's always it's always a very difficult thing to to do. And I really admire you for for how you've navigated that. But, you know, let's put things into perspective. but I think it's really nice what you're saying, but you cannot compare my achievements with yours. You, you you know, in the mountains, you know, if you want to achieve what you achieved, you need to go all in. I mean, that's the thing. You know you need to go 150%, 200%. And you need to do everything you did because otherwise you are not there. You cannot go ah diving on the Maldives and climb the Nanga Pava on the Rupa face in Alpine style. ah No. I mean, you're already Superman like that, but then you are an extra tiaresta. So that's exactly the choice you make. And what you're referring to is that a normal person like me. I'm not an athlete like you have ever been. I'm a good athlete, but, you know.
01:58:02
Speaker
Then I think that this balance, I see it rather with my colleagues that, you know, the balance is sometimes too much corporate. And then at a certain age, they wake up and they're like, oh, wow, maybe I die in 10 years because, you know, I should live.
01:58:18
Speaker
That's a little bit awkward. yeah You should think about that yourself. And I had certain rules, which I never, because I'm curious, I really like to do other things as work as well, but I love my work. ah ah But i I never threw away a single holiday in my entire life. And we have much more holidays, as you know, than in UF. You know, six or weeks, seven weeks, whatever. i took all my sabbaticals between jobs. So that the thing is, that's choices you make.
01:58:44
Speaker
Unless you're a professional athlete, then you you just do that for a certain time. period You don't do anything else. By definition, look at Roger Federer. I mean, he was skiing after 15 years after his tennis because it was forbidden for him as a tennis yeah star. So that's normal. So I think what you're saying is is is true for normal people.
01:59:03
Speaker
For athletes like you, at the time, you couldn't have done it otherwise. I mean, that's that's what... But i my here's my question for you then. Do you think what you learned from the mountains is any different than what I learned? That's a good question.
01:59:22
Speaker
I think you must have, I mean, learned. always is so Everything is is is is relative. ah I think you have probably lived much more intense ah situations on the mountain than I ever did.
01:59:37
Speaker
ah So I probably got a glimpse of the entire universe of what you got. But I've been certainly sometimes as scared as you were yeah some asking myself, why am I here? I could be in bed now, you know, somewhere. So it's a difficult question. I don't know. But I mean, it's probably the personal...
02:00:02
Speaker
o inclination of self-reflection and the willingness to learn what you take away and that can be different according to whatever ah ah experience ah you've made. So that's difficult to answer.
02:00:18
Speaker
I think we all learn something. Yes. yeah One of the reasons i purposely moved out of being a sponsored athlete is I came to the opinion that my experiences as an ultra expert at the tip of the spear of like the of alpinism were no more interesting or valuable or relevant than anyone else's and and it this started it And therefore, it didn't feel authentic to be put on a pedestal or to put myself on a pedestal or to have my stories broadcast on television or
02:01:00
Speaker
any of the, or get attention or awards or, it's like, why is, why is what I do any better than what Christine does? Or it's, because the end of the day. But that's, I think that's a very interesting thing about, I think that has to do with the personal development and not with, because there is no absolute truth. And, you know, some people tell me, why do you go to the stupid mountains all the time? I mean, that's completely useless, you know, ah or, or, you know, when I dive or whatever and they all run or, and it's it's it There is no absolute ah ah truth and for young alpinists probably you were a hero. So obviously you were much more than anybody else for this particular ah population because they they looked at Steve House, the you know this guy, they wanted to be like you. So I think
02:01:51
Speaker
you cannot compare it. Some of the young ah women probably look up to me and say, well, it's possible to become a CEO. So it's always in the context, to see in the context, you know, and and as long as you feel authentic and happy what you with what you do for others or for yourself, again, that's also without a weight, you know, there's no better or worse. So,
02:02:12
Speaker
So what you're saying is actually that for yourself, it didn't feel right anymore because I'm sure there were still people out there who were willing and interested in listening to your stories. It's not that there were no, but you didn't feel any more the same about it. So that's that's a very conscious decision, you know. And and so so you started a new part of your life, which is completely...
02:02:38
Speaker
legitimate but that doesn't mean that nobody would have been interested or that it's less or more yeah it's in your field
02:02:48
Speaker
That's what it what it is. I mean, nobody can take that away. It's the achievement. that's that's your That's what you did, your legacy. So I i wouldn't see it like, know, but I understand that you are not interested in it anymore. At a certain point, you do something else, you know, and but which is still related, you know, where you have this um this entitlement. Yeah.
02:03:11
Speaker
a certain and Because you have the credibility, you know? yeah Yeah. I think that's... And that was one of the things I was looking for exactly. Like, how can I take this credibility that I've earned and translate it into something positive? Mm-hmm.
02:03:28
Speaker
other than just like you know doing lectures about Nanga Parbat for the rest of my life. that But you're at a step which many professionals, including me, don't know what to do after the end of their professional life. Usually, they go to boards and do some board work.
02:03:45
Speaker
But at the end of the day, that's a very similar life, just because with less work ah working hours than before. But to really consciously, and I'm in an age that many people start thinking about that now, whom I know, what do you do afterwards when you all of a sudden, and that's a new aspect, you don't need to earn money anymore. Because yeah at a certain point, you're always like, well, I need the money, I need to survive. And then all of a sudden, you might be, wow, I can...
02:04:12
Speaker
either stop or I'm retired or whatever. And it's not the money. So what do you really do afterwards? And that's a very good question. It's a luxury question, obviously.
02:04:23
Speaker
It's a luxury question. But the thing is, it has very much to do with you went through, because it's like, we caught you know, it's it's a break in your curriculum. You stop doing what you always did successfully, actually.
02:04:35
Speaker
Your work, your mountaineering. And what... You I was asking myself, what would i have done if I had been a millionaire or something like that?
Journey to Self-Made Success
02:04:43
Speaker
I probably wouldn't have done the same life, ah ah because the origins come just from, yeah know, you get an education to work something and earn your life. So that's a very interesting thing, and I see these conversations arising a lot, and Some people have this earlier, like you did, and you already successfully developed something, which is your person, depending on it. Not the position power, because if I'm gone tomorrow from the company, I'm just k Christina, like Christina on the mountain, or scuba diving like anybody else. It's just the position power...
02:05:16
Speaker
which I have now at this point, which is completely worthless anywhere if I step step out of this door. And you need to be very conscious of that. Some people mix it up and think it's themselves. No way. No way. so And it's important if they if it's ripped off and you're not thinking about that, what to do afterwards. And by the way, that's why I love going to the mountains.
02:05:39
Speaker
Because nobody cares who you are, because it's just the competence. You know, if you go skiing, if you know the mountain, do you handle the situation where they couldn't, nobody could care less of of the the the other people when we go on the mountain, because that's a different league. It's a different life. It's a different area. I really enjoyed it.
02:05:59
Speaker
I completely enjoyed it. And to be there also top of the game and not only, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's super interesting. Actually, you something you already are through ah a part of your life and development, which I still have in front of me. And I'm not sure what to do with that in some years, but I will figure it out.
02:06:21
Speaker
Yes, you most certainly will. hope stay fit and I can still go to the mountains because that's the most important thing is to stay fit. Because otherwise, what do you do with all your time and your money if you cannot do anything anymore? Yeah. Yeah, and and you you know you have to remember that you are still you star the person that you became through all of the things that you managed and the projects you did and the company, how you built it and the people, how you managed it. And you still have all those skills and you still are that person. doesn't go away.
02:06:54
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And i think that good CEOs are in super high demand, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah, but it's it's really a question, what do you want to do with all that? If you have the luxury of being able to pick, which you usually don't have unless you're born a million, I am.
02:07:09
Speaker
What would Viktor Frankl do? Huh? What would Viktor Frankl do? Yeah, exactly. well he He found his purpose. ah he's a psychiatatt He was a psychiatrist. and that was And you know, he was teaching till very old. And I'm actually a friend's psychiatrist. She's 10 years older than am. And she was still in his lessons at the University of Vienna. She still enjoyed his lessons in person. Can you imagine? That's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah, it's great to know that these legends like him like or were walked the halls and taught the people that you know and so on. But
02:07:44
Speaker
One last question. well not one last question, but one one small question. What is the next small step then for you? ah Professionally or mountain wise? I think the like the next small step is a medium step because I assume the responsibility is corporate-wise of the two new countries.
02:08:07
Speaker
And that's very recent. And so I need to figure out how to manage that really because nobody gives you a recipe and tells you this is how you now also assume the responsibility of two countries. So I'm trying to figure out the target operating model there really. How can I do that? Combining that with my current responsibilities, what are the...
02:08:26
Speaker
What are the support functions I need? What is the time? How do I split my time without losing myself and with still being able to take all my vacation? Because I know it's not only um that I like to take my vacation, but I need it. it's It's something which I truly am convinced if you work all the time without necessary breaks, you're just not good. You cannot always high perform without any breaks. So that's that's basically, I need a weekend or a week or whatever on the mountains of skiing and then I'm good again. and So that's ah that's the other thing. And mountain-wise, you know, i I have this big dream still to go on Mount Winsen.
02:09:08
Speaker
And so that would be something which I really would like. It's it's horribly expensive. But i i when I assumed this role, ah when when I was hired for the role of CEO of Luxembourg, Carlos Luxembourg, at the time, I thought, if I do this very demanding executive job, I...
02:09:29
Speaker
I should promise myself that I paid this. I mean, this is the gift to myself for doing that because, you know, ah not that it's, you know, but I thought yeah I might.
02:09:40
Speaker
So this is something I might do. It's a way to celebrate. it's Yeah. So that that's really something i I really would like because the Antarctica and climb this mountain and the environment and everything, I would really, although I'm really afraid of the cold because I'm easily cold all the time. So it's probably the wrong mountain for me. But ah but you develop strategies for that, too, I'm sure.
02:10:03
Speaker
I buy a lot of Merino clothes and down and yeah, exactly. but My last question for you is, how would you like to be remembered? Oh, ah you know, that's a I actually would like to be remembered as a funny person, you know, like not nice and funny, easygoing to be around with easily and authentic and inspirational.
02:10:32
Speaker
So if I inspire one or two people in my life, that would be already that would be already nice But, you know, funny. I mean, like, the thing is, nothing counts if it's always too deadly serious and you don't have fun in your life, you know? So, that that it's sad, huh? So, if I'm saying funny, I don't mean stupid funny, you know, without any reason, but you know, if take take life a little bit, yeah, from the nice side and the fun side and, yeah, and and take it easy and and and then do your stuff and, then yeah, yeah, I think authentic, inspirational, funny, yeah.
02:11:10
Speaker
Not more than that. What is the, you know, in the States, in our cultural language, we talk about the moonshot, you know, with John F. Kennedy saying, we're going to go to the moon. And, you know, that was this incredible goal that we didn't have the technology for and all What is the moonshot version of that?
02:11:29
Speaker
answer. You said very humbly inspire one or two people. I'm sure you've inspired way more than one or two women. i mean, I know for a fact that you've inspired more than one or two women because I know more than one or two women that have been inspired by you. So what it like without pretend for a moment that you're this overconfident man saying you can do the project that you only have half the experience for maybe that's the mindset now I'm falling in the women's trap again ah ah now look I think
02:12:02
Speaker
If I want to be remembered, you probably don't know, but I come from a very humble background. I grew up in the you know the public housing of Vienna, which is ah yeah not typically for the very rich. In my generation, it wasn't for the poor either. but the but But I mean, I had you know a really good upbringing, but we were not rich. And I didn't have any support in terms of... um My parents supported me super, but they didn't have the...
02:12:34
Speaker
the the connections, you know, to to provide a job, to to get you a good job. And in Austria, as you know, everything is about connections. It's now a little bit less ah pronounced than it was 50 years or 40 years ago.
02:12:49
Speaker
So it was really, i mean, either know you knew somebody or didn't get a job. There's a reason why I'm a brother. And... the I have to say I'm really proud from where I come from. I mean, I was always i empowered by my parents. They always said, you can do everything, you're great and so on, but no money, no connections, i mean basically.
02:13:10
Speaker
And I have to say, where I come from, I would have never imagined that this is possible, you know, that I'm... I get there where I am, i you know that I lived in so many countries, that I did what I did, that I earned what I do, but that I'm a CEO, that I know the people I know. I speak five languages. I financed myself two master's degree and a doctorate.
02:13:34
Speaker
via student loans, as student scholarships. Everything was financed. I had never any money of anything. I worked since I was 14 years old. and My first job was at McDonald's with 17 where I financed my scuba diving course. So it's all self-made. There is no shortcut. In my life, no shortcut.
02:13:53
Speaker
Never, ever. And as a foreigner, as a woman foreigner in Switzerland, to become this first female CEO with a P&L responsibility and the biggest insurance,
02:14:04
Speaker
That's not a thing which comes from nothing. So yes, that would be the male version, plus the mountaineering, plus the Ironman, plus 20 marathons, plus the traveling in nearly 100 countries, and then getting to know Steve Howes.
02:14:19
Speaker
Oh, come on. Well, I mean, you know, I mean, I know people in the mountaineering world. That's not automatic for a CEO of an insurance company. Yeah. You know, to track twice with Reinhard Messner around, once in Nepal, once in Pakistan. You know, when we met the second time, it was with Peter Haveler. I mean, he led me on the Großglocken in a private tour. I mean, could I have imagined that when I was a little kid in Vienna? Yeah.
02:14:45
Speaker
No way. I mean, those were my heroes. And all of a sudden, you're playing in a league you could have never imagined with no support in terms of, you know, like Pistoné, they say French, it's like a pushed ah vitamin B. That I have to say...
02:15:03
Speaker
Yeah, you did that. You did that. You can be very proud of that. It's very impressive. Yeah. I find you very impressive. Now that you're saying that and you pushed me to say all those things, I need to say, wow, that's really impressive.
02:15:18
Speaker
So we impress ourselves bilaterally for our stories. Yeah.
02:15:27
Speaker
Thank you so much for being here. I know was hard for us to find a time that worked with your schedule. You're very busy. You just went through this merger of these companies and taking on all this responsibility. So thank you so much. I'm super grateful for your time. You're sharing your wisdom. and you know, we're for sure going to help you inspire more people. So thank you, Christina. Thank you so much, Steve, for inviting me.
02:15:50
Speaker
i'm I'm really proud to be able to, you have to have been in your podcast because I also admire you. So that's a perfect match. Good. Well, let's go skiing sometime or go climb.
02:16:02
Speaker
I would love to, if you take me long, I come anytime with a little bit of planning, planning ahead. Yeah. Right. Of course. Maybe we get through the the merger first and maybe yeah exactly next winter. Okay. Sounds good. We'll do it.
02:16:16
Speaker
Thank you so much. You're very welcome.
02:16:33
Speaker
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02:16:50
Speaker
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02:17:01
Speaker
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