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Muscular Endurance Training with Uphill Athlete Coaches
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Steve House is joined by coaches Martin Zhor and Ben Morley for a deep dive into muscular endurance — what it is, why it matters, and how to train it. The conversation covers the critical distinction between local muscular fatigue and global cardiovascular fatigue, explaining why legs failing before lungs is the defining sign of a muscular endurance deficit. Drawing on examples from ultra running, mountaineering, ski touring, and cross-country skiing, the coaches walk through the physiological mechanisms at work: muscle fiber adaptation, capillarization, metabolic efficiency, and the role of stabilizer muscles in maintaining movement quality under load.
The episode then turns practical, covering how to sequence muscular endurance training within a broader periodization plan — including the importance of building a strength and aerobic base first, how to use the 10% aerobic-to-anaerobic threshold rule as a readiness gauge, and what both gym-based and outdoor heavy-pack sessions should look and feel like. Martin and Ben also address common mistakes athletes make, from loading up on easy long hikes to skipping the downhill component entirely, and explain why this type of training is essential for anyone taking on objectives like Denali, UTMB, or long days in the mountains.
Special Offer to Listeners: Receive free four week samples of our most popular training plans, visit uphillathlete.com/letsgo
Write to us at coach@uphillathlete.com
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Transcript
Trail Running Vs. Hiking: A Common Misconception
00:00:00
Speaker
I think most runners, trail runners especially, I mean, they don't realize that you will hike lot of the big part of the of the distance. And so you think hiking will be easy. I will just train running.
00:00:13
Speaker
So this is, I think, a big mistake that the trail runners make, especially ultra.
Free Training Plan from Uphill Athlete
00:00:27
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan. Head on over to uphillathlete.com slash let's go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:00:44
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at uphillathlete.com slash let's go. uphillathlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
Muscular Endurance: The Limiting Factor?
00:01:00
Speaker
You've put in the miles, you've built the aerobic base, and you can go all day at a moderate pace. But somewhere above a certain intensity, maybe on a steep uphill or on a tactical climb on a trail or at an altitude of an 8,000-meter peak, your legs just simply give out before your lungs do.
00:01:21
Speaker
You're not out of breath. You're just kind of done. That feeling has a name, and more importantly, it has a fix My name is Steve House and welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast.
Meet the Coaches: Martin and Ben
00:01:31
Speaker
With me today are two of the Uphill Athlete coaches who I've worked with extensively, have both applied, muscular endurance training with mountaineers, ultra runners, and ski athletes, with athletes just starting out as well as people racing at the highest highest level. So let's get into it Martin, you're based in Chamonix. You've got a sports science degree. You're working on one more.
00:01:55
Speaker
and you've done an FKT on Aconcagua, summoning from base camp in three hours and 38 minutes. Give me a quick 30-second version of what brings you back high-altitude performance specifically, and or the mountains that keep just pulling you back from a scientific point of view.
00:02:20
Speaker
I think um it's a curiosity and... i I like challenges, always always have. I started with Indian Run Sports when I was a kid. Always loved running around to my home village, but then eventually started running competitions, middle distance running, but also dreamt, always dreamt about mountains. And I think what draws me to the mountains is the the vertical, the vertical aspect, the the the views, just the awesomeness of the mountains and the environment.
00:02:48
Speaker
But think also... It's about how challenging it is. so walking uphill, hiking uphill is hard. I think many ah most people can agree with that. And i just really I just really love it, the challenge of it. And whenever I see a hill, I kind of want to run it. So that's basically led me to run and trying to kind of run a Konkaguah.
00:03:09
Speaker
ah So managed to break the record back then. um That inspired me to go higher. So made it even to 8,000 meters, which was my dream since I was a kid.
00:03:20
Speaker
And I think that's that's where it gets more challenging with um the altitude, the effects of it. and um But yeah, i'm I'm always inspired by that. And I keep training for it until today.
00:03:33
Speaker
The science of it also, of course, then. Yeah, science, really looking into the the performance, the physiology, what is behind it, how, especially the altitude effects, so the performance. So, um yeah, I'm, I'm really, really excited about that too.
Focus on Durability and Long-Term Development in Training
00:03:52
Speaker
Ben Morley is joining us and he's been coaching since 2007, the deep background in Nordic skiing. Ben's philosophy and approach is really grounded in longterm athletic development and durability and philosophy speed that's partially informed by one of his own backcountry skiing injuries.
00:04:15
Speaker
Ben, really glad to have you. what york as your coaching philosophy sort of centers on durability and long-term development, what do you mean by durability before we get into the topic of muscular endurance?
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah, so thanks thanks, Steve, and good to be with you guys today. um Durability stems from you basically... I think putting in all the all the foundational work too first before you get into the really specific kind of training as well. So, you know, we can't really skip the steps of jumping into zone three work right away, jumping into muscular endurance zone three work.
00:04:55
Speaker
It really has to start from the beginning of doing the base strength phases during the essential, you know, zone one, zone two workouts and building up that,
00:05:06
Speaker
that frame for months on end before we even think about jumping into, um you know, higher intensity strength and then building towards, uh, muscular endurance stuff in the gym and then muscular endurance stuff outdoors up steep hills with heavy packs. So, you know, it's a long progression. Durability means a lot of different things, right? And we need to work all our different systems and be well adapted,
00:05:33
Speaker
um you know, from strength to aerobic to anaerobic before we can get that specific a necessary muscular endurance workout where we're carrying that heavy pack for 35, 45 minutes really hard. So it's not any one thing. It's the whole gamut of what we work on over with athletes here at Upple Athlete.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, and durability has been a topic of, uh, kind of a buzzword the coaching circles lately. I know a lot of people are talking about it and we're going to talk about it more and in ah another time.
Importance of Muscular Endurance in Sports
00:06:05
Speaker
Martin, let's start with some definitions. What is muscular endurance and what is can you help us understand the difference between local fatigue and global fatigue? Because I think that distinction between local and global fatigue is really at the heart of everything we're going to talk about.
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah. So what is muscle or endurance? and By definition, it stands somewhere between the strength and endurance. of It is a capacity ah in endurance athletes at least. It's a sport-specific capacity to ah resist fatigue and produce submaximal force ah keep coordination, keep the economy over, let's say, prolonged duration, or prolonged effort and repeated contractions of the muscles.
00:06:53
Speaker
um So that would be the definition. And then um when it comes to local and central ah central fatigue. So basically muscular endurance is that in the category of floco ah local, local fatigue or local muscular endurance, we can call it. and So what is the difference there? So when ah the body is trying to respond to the demand of the exercise, ah so let's take an example of what walking uphill, and going up a mountain, running up a mountain. ah so
00:07:30
Speaker
the the whole physiology response. ah The central, ah what we call central, is really anything from ah cardio, respiratory function, vascular. So basically it's about distribution primarily of oxygen to the tissues, but primarily actually the muscles. They have a high demand for oxygen to um provide the aerobic metabolism with oxygen. so then the the metabolism can can actually ah produce energy for for the muscles to do the work. So that is the central part, really the the transport, the distribution of oxygen, but also the nutrients through the bloodstream to the working muscles.
00:08:11
Speaker
So basically that's the first part of equation and the second part is then the muscles, what happens in the muscles. And so um what we want to discuss today is actually what will what is the limiter at any given time during the exercise.
00:08:26
Speaker
and um And yeah, so ah the muscle endurance specifically talks about when it becomes the limiter and how we can train it. Yeah, and we've written and talked about local muscular endurance for many years at uphill athlete. And it really is that idea like walking uphill, the legs and the glutes are the local muscle muscles that are the limiter at like ah ah high strength, high endurance activity, like carrying a heavy pack uphill.
00:08:57
Speaker
Then let's like kind of look at this through the lens of skiing. i mean, could be almost any kind of skiing, ski mo, ski touring, Nordic skiing. How do you describe this and ME concept to skiers who like to think that they're already fit? How do how do you get this ah across? Yeah.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's much different, right? Like, um, you might have somebody that's in in pretty good shape. Uh, they can, you know, run two plus hours really easy, or they could go on a a moderate ski tour, uh, two, three plus hours or a cross country skier could be cruising along on varied terrain and and really tap into their aerobic system and feel pretty solid. Right. But when we get into steeper terrain, heavier weight, um,
00:09:48
Speaker
you know, and thinking about like even cross-country skiing where you have to double pull for hours on end, you're you're it's working a completely different system, right? And we have to train that. So for cross-country skiers, it's like we will go out and just do, you know, sometimes a two-hour straight double pull. And it's, you're definitely getting some aerobic work in, but you'll find it's it's harder to get your heart rate up as much right um but that's because we're we're trying to really focus on that that muscular endurance aspect of the upper body that's so key in cross-country skiing so you know it could be the same kind of work that you're doing in schema where we gradually start to work in steeper terrain add a little bit more weight but have that workout be specifically focused on building that kind of system right um
00:10:48
Speaker
So yeah, you can be in great shape, but I've i've seen it time and time again of like cross country skiers that are in fantastic shape, right? And then the double pulling is a limiting factor. um So yeah, there's there's definitely a difference there.
00:11:03
Speaker
what What is the injury prevention angle for doing muscular endurance? Specifically, like kind of what happens when some of these slow twitch muscles that help stabilize joints get tired?
00:11:18
Speaker
What happens to movement quality and injury risk? Yeah, I mean, movement quality goes down, injury goes down, right? so And like I spoke to this before, you can't jump straight into the muscular endurance. The base strength work is going to support that muscular endurance work. So it's the core stability work that you put in prior to jumping into this muscular endurance stuff that allows you to have that correct body position and move efficiently and effectively.
00:11:48
Speaker
Um, so it's, like I said, again, we can't just jump straight into em ME work and go hard. Um, you see injury prevention work that goes in the base strength before that.
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah. Makes sense. And in, like you said, like it has to progress, right? Like it has the, the sandcastle has to be built in the right order. You can't just put, you can't do things in the wrong order or, and expect to get good results.
00:12:16
Speaker
If someone is able to run, say, 50 miles a week, pretty decent volume, and they feel like they're aerobically fit, what would be a good test for them to understand that muscular endurance may actually be their
How to Test and Identify Muscular Endurance Limits
00:12:31
Speaker
limiter?
00:12:31
Speaker
How would how would you prescribe a ah a test to someone? Yeah, I mean, we we do this, um you know, at Uphel Athlete, too, when we're coaching, but...
00:12:46
Speaker
Something like ah an anaerobic threshold test where you're you're running uphill like just really hard, as hard as you can go. I mean, this can be anywhere between 30, 45 minutes, right? And often you will find if it's steep enough,
00:13:03
Speaker
um you're your heart rate might not be able to get up there quite as well as easily if you know your muscular endurance isn't. solid if your legs aren't solid. So that's, that can be a good test to kind of figure out where you're at.
00:13:20
Speaker
Um, I would say, and then, you know, we, we look at that data and then we decide, okay, what kind of training do we need to do to get to the point where we want to be, um, to be able to get that heart rate up with pushing some weight as well.
00:13:32
Speaker
If I can add the 50, the, the running, I think that ah we should always keep in mind that it's sport-specific or within the runners for running, especially when ah for half marathon, marathon running also. I think there is that aspect of muscle endurance. It's actually the capacity of the athletes to sustain so many so much impact.
00:13:57
Speaker
So actually, they are not so limited by... the cardiovascular function per se, it's actually to be able to go so fast at such a high speed for so so much time. So ah so the the muscle strength work is is so, so important. So I think it's say it's you know it's it's in in its own category within running. But I think for trail running, mountain sports, it's's it's that's our domain.
00:14:22
Speaker
um I think ah the way at least I address it for my athletes in trail running, in ultras, is, um and it's tied to the durability, right? So one thing is to run for one, two hours, but what happens after four, five, six hours or 20 hours running those really long ultrass? So I think then the muscle endurance is really a strong factor.
00:14:43
Speaker
It's actually, you're not limited by kari by your central function and so much anymore. You're so tired, but actually being able to keep going, just hiking takes so want so much effort. So then I think that the training, the muscle endurance is a key.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I would say also definitely differently for uphill, differently for the demands of the downhill, right? So it ah it's always worth to analyze the sport, to to to look at the profile of each race and take it from there. Yeah, I think that the fingerprint of a muscular endurance deficit is always that the legs fail before the lungs.
00:15:22
Speaker
And I've seen this and just as an observer, like at Hard Rock before, you know, it's like, there's ah You can tell who can run the hills and who's walking all the hills. And obviously over 100 miles or more, that takes that makes a big difference in in time.
00:15:39
Speaker
So, Martin, you want to just walk us through what's happening inside a muscle during this kind of sustained high force output. Why does it fall apart What is what is muscular endurance training structurally change?
00:15:57
Speaker
Yeah, so as we all said, Ben highlighted this, that it's all on the top of the base strength, right? So ah it's about the muscles, muscle fibers.
00:16:08
Speaker
So they should, by this point, when you go into the this stage of training of muscle endurance, they should be really strong. you You should really increase your maximum strength capacity. So then whatever you do, whatever those muscles are required to do is ah at a kind of a lower percentage of the maximum.
00:16:25
Speaker
That's one part. But then when we look into the muscles, so we we have different types of ah muscle fibers. So slow twitch and then fast twitch. And there are also the subcategories of this fast twitch.
00:16:37
Speaker
I think this this is ah quite... um Known for all endurance athletes, but just to be clear, slow twitch fibers, ah they have low force, but they have high endurance, high capacity go to go for a very long time. ah But then and then vice versa, the fast twitch fibers, they can produce a lot of force, a lot of power, ah but they don't last very long.
00:17:01
Speaker
And then there's that subcategory of type 2A versus 2X. So those are really powerful, but very short lasting. ah So those between. so basically with ah chronic long term endurance training, we've observed that or scientists have observed that some of these fast twitch fibers can actually transform into slow twitch fibers.
00:17:24
Speaker
which is for endurance athletes at least beneficial. It's at a cost of losing power, losing that absolute sprinting sprinting speed, but that's not really a factor for most endurance athletes. We want to be able to go for very long time. And so then that would be kind of the first thing to really target the the slow twitch muscle fibers and make them really robust, really strong, really resistant to fatigue. So what does that mean?
00:17:53
Speaker
So I would say, yeah but i would keep it in like different categories. So metabolism, metabolism. So what is happening in those muscle fibers? ah So the one important part also to mention, and that actually links the central central factor distributing the blood to those muscle fibers.
00:18:13
Speaker
So capillarization. I think we can agree that this is really huge. And also ah one of the key adaptations from us specifically muscle endurance endurance training.
00:18:23
Speaker
So you can really be efficient distributing blood, oxygen, and um and metabolites, and also getting getting those metabolites, result of the metabolism, out of there ah quickly and efficiently.
00:18:37
Speaker
And then the metabolism, so basically producing the energy for for the for the work that the muscles do. So we are targeting all of it. We're we're making those fibers really, really strong, ah being able to stay in fat metabolism, which is the one that we want. That's the long-term one. efficient one, oxygen dependent one.
00:19:00
Speaker
And we want to postpone then the shift or kind of the turn into the glycolysis. So that's it's It's a factor. it's It's of course something that is happening naturally, but it comes at a cost and we want to postpone that, the glypholysis, lactate production and other metabolites, the actually increasing acidity, because that in turn will make everything more difficult, more complicated.
00:19:27
Speaker
The contractility of the fibers will go down. So yeah, it's pretty much the the metabolism and part of the of the the picture. Also in terms of neuro-muscle connections, so ah we are we're trying to um make sure that the muscle fibers are still recruited, ah they are well coordinated, so the the movements are really efficient.
00:19:52
Speaker
And as we discussed with the fatigue, this is starting to fall apart. the The movements are becoming less efficient, ah the form goes down and ah basically... ah we were starting to feel it the fat fatigue will show up one way or the other.
00:20:07
Speaker
um Then the mechanically, as I mentioned, so being able to perform those contractions or those movements going up the hill ah from like the really high ceiling. So the maximum strength, we want to really have that strong max ah mux strength stage before um resistance to damage. So I think this links to the types of constructions really important.
00:20:31
Speaker
to So I think most of our uphill athlete programs for muscle endurance include both the concentric and the eccentric movements. So concentric for me is most important for the uphill, uh, eccentric, especially for the downhill. Of course, there's always a combination of all, all those, but with the, with the eccentric contractions, what is the deal is that it create, can create a lot of damage, real damage that the the muscle fibers are actually kind of torn. Uh, the fascia is this damaged. And so of course that creates, uh,
00:21:02
Speaker
inflammation and pain. And of course, ah overall, the the performance will suffer, especially when the the athlete has to go keep going. And this is actually actually happening during that that
Exercises for Training Muscular Endurance
00:21:14
Speaker
one activity or during that one race, for example.
00:21:17
Speaker
But good news is that this this capacity is is trainable pretty easily. um But I think it's really good to to think about it and distinguish.
00:21:27
Speaker
um Yeah, I think then the biomechanics. So as we discussed, it's also not not just about the primary movers, the big muscle groups that are doing the movement. It's also about the movement, the um the muscles that are stabilizers.
00:21:42
Speaker
So if they do the work, if they have that fatigue resistance and muscle endurance, then the big primary movers, they can do their job. But usually what happens when the stabilizers start to kind of fade, the big muscles, they try to catch up. They try to kind of do the work of the stabilizers, and but that's not their job. And then everything goes down. Everything starts to crumble and we just feel the fatigue also back to the injuries. ah
00:22:12
Speaker
Over the extended periods of time, this can definitely lead to some overuse injuries too. Yeah, I think it's one of the one of the things that helps people get on board with muscular endurance training is that when the your legs, the local muscular muscles, in this case of going uphill, the legs can are strong enough in this way they can finally push the cardiovascular system to its actual limit and you can get the most out of the input, which is the breathing and the blood flow and the and the glycogen that you're delivering um and and the nutrients you're delivering, the metabolites, as you said.
00:22:51
Speaker
So let's let's shift over to you, Ben. like How do you, um you know, there's this there's this question about sequencing for ski athletes. I'm just going out of role here.
00:23:07
Speaker
um you want to talk, Ben, about like when to start? um Like this sort of 10% rule that, you know, or guideline rule of thumb that we have, like get aerobic threshold within 10% of anaerobic threshold before starting aerobic base. You want to kind of introduce that? Are you comfortable with that?
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, totally. anyway I think Martin just spoke to, you know, the stabilizing muscles are are super important. That's key. We we talked about the base strength, but even some dynamic strength at work before that can be really good as well. But yeah, I mean, to the point of getting within 10%, that's key before you start any muscular endurance stuff. I think you're right. Like, um and really before I even jumped into any kind of zone three muscular endurance work where we even maybe do a little bit of a lightweight to ease into that. Um, and even before doing the anaerobic threshold tests, I think it's important to warm up an athlete to doing intervals in a fashion where they can get used to those lactate levels a little bit and just what that
00:24:18
Speaker
feels like, right, to be in a place where when they do get to that anaerobic threshold test, they can push themselves hard. We can see how their muscles respond, how their anaerobic system responds.
00:24:32
Speaker
And then after we look at some of that data, if we're not within, you know, 10%, that's going to give us some data to understand how to structure the training a little bit differently.
00:24:42
Speaker
How quickly do we move into the muscular endurance stuff? Do we need to do more um aerobic work potentially to get that aerobic threshold up to close to the anaerobic threshold.
00:24:57
Speaker
But often we see some athletes that are in really good shape, you know, and they are within that 10%. And that gives us an indication that, yeah, let's jump into this work right away.
00:25:08
Speaker
um You know, start with some zone three stuff that's not weight bearing or that's not like heavy weight quite yet. um And then gradually use into it, gradually increase the weight um through interval fashions, right? Sometimes we'll, you know, we start, I usually start with something like three times five minutes, working towards three times eight minutes, two times 15, two times 20, times 15, times 25. And then we're to the place like, okay, we can start to handle that duration. We can start to
00:25:44
Speaker
And through that process, increase the weight. So we get to that point of being able to sustain a 35, 45 minute zone three effort with carrying really, really heavy weight. So um like we said at the beginning, there has to be a progression to all of this. And the 10% rule gives us some information about where that athlete is at and how to structure the training.
00:26:07
Speaker
to get them to that point. I think those are great points. And I just want to zoom out a sec, a second and sort of bring together something that you both have talked about in that the, the correct sort of periodization of strength training is to do four to 12 weeks of sort of general strength, foundational working on movement patterns, building and reform, you know, getting the connective tissue, turn, like what's the right word here? Getting the connective tissue going.
00:26:36
Speaker
I'm getting the, I don't have a good word. Well, there's, there's sort of four phases to this. We want to start with general strength, which is going to be four to 12 weeks, really foundational strength, developing good movement patterns and do eight, 16 weeks or really eight to 12 weeks, mostly of a max strength, which is heavy compound lifts.
00:26:58
Speaker
That's more of a neurological training. And we've talked about that in other places, a neurological effect of that training. then muscular endurance, and then after muscular endurance, going into some high-intensity intervals.
00:27:10
Speaker
And one of the things that you're talking about, Ben, and I've seen this, is that it's really important for ah coaches who have not – there are a lot of coaches out there who have worked and have themselves been elite athletes, And when you're working with somebody who has already done a lot of intervals in your their lives, like they kind of know what it to do. They know what it feels like. They know how to go hard.
00:27:36
Speaker
But a lot of times we're working with people who this is pretty new to them. And so like, you know, getting them to understand what a zone three feels like, you know, it takes more than just like one day. It takes more than one phone call. You know, it it is some effort to to build that up. And I think it's really important. You and this is where the the magic of coaching happens, knowing who's that person and who is the person that you can, you know, just throw at a, throw them into a, you know, two by 20 minute, you know, zone three and their for their first ME workout. And that that's very, very different ah people.
00:28:11
Speaker
For mountaineering, like someone going to Denali, Martin, like how do you see muscular endurance playing a role in people training for denali or
Denali Challenges: Specific Training Needs
00:28:24
Speaker
Everest? so One of these, particularly I think Denali because it has a really unique ah need to carry all heavy loads, heavy packs and move heavy sleds just by yourself that no other climb think really mimics.
00:28:40
Speaker
Yes. um So it's a good question how to actually put it in the plan, the periodization and where it fits. So um Again, it comes to knowing the specifics, the demands of the climb. Now we talk about the mountaineerings. So ah Denali ah is a really big one, right? And so the demands are really high, especially the specific movements to pull the slats with the weight and also the heavyweight carry, which is big one.
00:29:14
Speaker
combined actually, both of them at the same time. Depending on the quality of snow, you might have to actually carry most of the weight ah versus maybe if if you are lucky, it's sliding really nicely, you're pulling the weight and it's it's not creating too much resistance. But it really depends.
00:29:30
Speaker
you should be you know You should hope for the best and for the worst. So you should you need to be ready for if it's really, really hard. And also that heavy carry up the up to the high camps where then it's a really high heavy backpack.
00:29:44
Speaker
it can be really icy, basically black ice, you're on your front points. So really making sure that the athlete, at the climber is ready for or those demands. ah So even, for example, the calf strength there, so not not ah forgetting that. Sometimes we forget and and within that specific a muscle group, it's actually mostly the isotonic, the isometric, sorry, isometric, the hold muscle.
00:30:11
Speaker
isometrical, so i like I like to include that in the protocol. But guys coming back to the planning, so where does it fit in? So let's say if I have one year for with the athlete, that's ideal, of course, longer the better.
00:30:27
Speaker
So um the way I think about it is I have to see the athlete, where they are, what they have been doing so far, testing, see where they are with the Arabic base thresholds. um and start from there. Also, if they are planning some climbs in that year, I like to because it's good to have some medium intermediate goals to test them as well, in the especially in the mountains.
00:30:51
Speaker
And train technique. Yeah, train technique and all that. So cover all those demands, not just the physical preparation, the physiological parameters. But when it comes to the that is physiological parameters, so ah we think about it in a way that how long does it take to get those adaptations? And usually I focus, I use the block periodization. So echo focusing on like one intensity, not only of course it's on the base of of the Arabic intensity, but trying to increase the ceiling, the VO max also sometimes, but making sure of course that the Arabic base is there
00:31:30
Speaker
But I like to also go from from the end. So, okay, the May, ah may June expedition for Denali, and I kind of go backwards. So I know that the last part really is specific. The specificity, one of the main training principles.
00:31:46
Speaker
So the training needs to be specific. The movements need to be specific. The duration of the training, the overall volume, and also the type of strength training, which is muscle endurance. So the muscle endurance is really the last specific part of the strength plan. And it's both the gym based and also the weighted carries sled pulls when it comes to Denali. It is quite similar honestly with Everest. Metabolically at least or what what we are addressing and i already spoke about it, what is actually happening within the muscle endurance. That also ties into the the the timeline of adaptations, right? it's The metabolic, the neuromuscular, those are usually the first ones. But we actually then, if we go backwards more, we come from the maximum strength protocol. So ah the muscles kind of know what to do. And now we hit them basically with the metabolic demands and the the endurance part of the muscular endurance picture. Yeah, I love that framing of like getting the you know getting the neurological...
00:32:48
Speaker
layer sorted out and then adding the metabolic demands on top of that. That's that's the right way to think about it. um let's Let's talk a little bit about what muscular endurance training looks like. I tried to find a background picture for my screen today that showed hiking up a hill with a backpack, but I wasn't able to dig one out. This is close enough.
00:33:16
Speaker
so one of you want to walk, ah walk me through sort of a typical heavy pack carry session. What is the terrain? What is ideal terrain look like? What kind of grade are we talking? low duration?
00:33:29
Speaker
How does the athlete know by feel if they have the right intensity?
00:33:38
Speaker
Sure. I mean, i I think maybe we can both add to this a little bit, but, um, you know we we We ideally want this to be pretty hard, right? And maybe even some uneven, weird train like scree using all your stabilizer muscles to be able to move your body with heavy weight, right? So ah you have to be ready for that right there, too. You can't just jump into that. So I sometimes, um like I said before, I start with lighter weight on these muscular endurance workouts with athletes.
00:34:14
Speaker
Um, and then gradually increase the weight, gradually increase the the terrain or the the grade of the, uh, where they're doing their workouts. So it's not any, like, this is your only muscular endurance workout where you need to find the steepest hill and put a 60 pound pack on. Right. I think it really varies just athlete to athlete.
00:34:35
Speaker
Um, And just having a nice progression is is the best way to approach it. And even doing stuff in the gym, too, right, to help prepare for that, too. Like short rest periods, box step ups, box step downs. If that's the weakness of the athlete, like we can focus on that workout um and then move that stuff to the outdoors. so um One little trick I've used with people doing it in the gym is I'll have them do the box step offs.
00:35:05
Speaker
step up one side and then have to step down on the other side, but have another small box there so it's not as far. Because if you have a ah box that's high enough for you to step up, it's really hard to step off, especially facing outwards.
00:35:18
Speaker
So that's that's a little little trick for people. what do what does What is the feeling? um tell what How does the athlete know in their body? like What is the feeling in their body when they're doing this right?
00:35:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think but In general, again, we we should be limited by the muscles, basically, not by the cardiorespiratory. So the breathing is not the limit, or the heart rate is not super high. It shouldn't be. So i think then what the what kind of weight we are using.
00:35:48
Speaker
um So i think it's very individual. but also sport-specific and event-specific. I like to i have two categories of non-specific weight and specific weight because for some mountains especially, especially Denali, we talked about it that one,
00:36:07
Speaker
you have to be ready to carry a lot of weight. ah You have to be independent of there, there's there are no borders. So I like to ah kind of use it also as a framework and you know build it up towards that specific weight that actually usually covers even the demands for the muscle endurance training, because it's heavy enough.
00:36:25
Speaker
And then otherwise, I think it's using percentage of body weight I think that ensures you know like individuality and specificity. So if it's a 50-kilo athlete versus 80-kilo athlete, the relative weight will look differently. But it should ah should kind of induce enough stress for that given athlete. And then we take it from there and we build it up.
00:36:52
Speaker
I think what what we usually see is the overall speed, uphill speed goes down a bit, which is good. For me, it's specific. It's actually about that. The Slotovic fibers are working really hard and there they now are really, ah we are working on that capacity that we want, really postpone the fatigue, make them for like creating a lot of force, but repetitively and postponing the fatigue as much as we can. Another thing I like to do is if the athletes have a way to do that, to basically go up and down a hill, like something like 1,000 feet, 300 meters elevation gain, ideal, do it three times.
00:37:31
Speaker
And you can really see It's a nice test of durability also, but also I think that muscle endurance, how is that speed over those three laps? You can compare the heart rate. The heart rate actually goes down to our point that central function is not a limiter.
00:37:47
Speaker
It's actually the fatigue building up in the muscles. and And so over the phase, we are able to see the progression. we They are able to keep the pace. Yeah. Yeah, great. And I think that one of the things that people always ask is like, well, I don't live in the mountains, what do I do? and you know I always say you know the the first choice is something that uses real gravity, like walking up and down stairs stadium steps.
00:38:13
Speaker
The next best thing is probably a treadmill, steep treadmill. Third best is probably a stair master. and when we think about this, you know we do want the lights to be burning, but the conversation to still feel possible is sort of one of the ways to think about it. And it's you often, and if you don't get to that on the first workout or even the second or third workout, don't be surprised because it takes time to dial in the the location, how, you know, just all the, all the variables. There's a lot of kind of gear involved. Like how do, how are you waiting your pack? Are you, do you have enough water bottles?
00:38:56
Speaker
there's just a lot of logistics that go into getting these workouts right. And it's, and it often takes a few tries. I also want to say like, it's almost never steep enough to go up a trail or a road. Like you have to go up a, ideally you have a ski run. You can go right up the fall line of the ski run, or you go up this, the slope um somewhere where you're not, young you know, you know, we're not causing too much erosion and and go up a scree field, something like that.
00:39:21
Speaker
But, you know, we all, limited by the terrain we have ah around us. Here where I'm sitting, like there's steep hills, but they're covered they're pretty it's pretty forested. So it's pretty hard to go straight up the fall line on on these hills here unless I have ah something like a ski run.
00:39:38
Speaker
So let's let's shift to the gym area. jim What does, we've mentioned this a couple times, but let's get really specific. What does a gym based muscular endurance progression look like? I got to say like probably most of the athletes I coach are doing this in the gym. There's just not that many people that have the right terrain to do this outside. So what is that? What is a gym based ME workout look like then?
Gym-Based Workouts for Muscular Endurance
00:40:06
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I, I think we kind of spoke to it a little bit, but, um, And, you know, I think in the base strength phase too, there there's, it's not muscular endurance, but I often have athletes do more reps with more rest, right? In that base strength phase. And it kind of just adapts their body in a way to be able to move on to that max strength phase. So by the time we get to the the more muscular endurance aspect, like, yeah, we might have some some longer rest periods, but really trying to shorten those rest periods as much as possible, right?
00:40:47
Speaker
and And doing ah like a box step-down workout then do going to do something else like push-ups or pull-ups right away. It's it's kind of, I mean, people we talk about this, people think maybe like CrossFit, but it's not like CrossFit of the high-intensity one thing to the next. It's really the the time and the duration that's bringing those muscular endurance adaptations.
00:41:12
Speaker
It's just the short rest period and then the long sustained box step stones. We're talking about, Martin said again, it's specificity, right? so um Someone that's running a marathon, that could look a little different. and How do we train that in the gym? It's a little bit more difficult, right? They just need to go run like for hours and hours.
00:41:37
Speaker
um But we can do stuff that's less intense with less weight, just more Like lunges, right? It's not necessarily weighted, but lots and lots of lunges and short rest periods.
00:41:52
Speaker
Lunges are great. Yeah. I don't know Martin can add to what his ideas on gym-based muscular endurance as well. i Yeah, I think so. I mean, I agree with you. I think yeah we can split it into categories of like two-legged squat versus the unilateral squat. And I think those unilateral squats, in that especially the last stage, are more specific to us endurance athletes because we are ultimately doing that whether you're running or hiking or or especially uphill hiking or downhill hiking, right? So it should be some version of that. So box step ups for the uphill, I think that's
00:42:30
Speaker
as specific as it gets, ah you can control the movement relatively well. And it's as you said, I think it's the important part there. It's about the time, the duration of those reps. And you should start to feel that kind of aerobic, we can call it maybe aerobic part. You start to, the the brave breath and the heart rate goes up.
00:42:49
Speaker
because the demands are all of a sudden very different to classic strength protocol, which is about low number of reps. The energy metabolism is completely different. So we're actually going to that endurance part of the muscle endurance.
00:43:02
Speaker
um Yeah, so with the BoxStep apps, And lunges or some kind of dropping the weight down and doing reps of it. Maybe jump rope also. Maybe that's more for the dynamic movements of running.
00:43:16
Speaker
ah Some kind of, ah as I mentioned, the calf, something for the calves. Maybe simple calf raises and drops, of course. But then um maybe also the isometric holds for some of those.
00:43:28
Speaker
mountaineering, especially ice climbing or parts of the climbs where you are, know, on your front points, uh, which can be on Everest, which can be on big mountains on Denali. Uh, I would also, we could include there. So it's not necessarily reps. It's actually holding in that specific position, ah for a certain time.
00:43:50
Speaker
Let's just do real quick. Some of the common mistakes that you've seen.
Mistakes in Muscular Endurance Training
00:43:57
Speaker
Ben, you want to is there something that you've noticed that people get wrong about muscular endurance training? Yeah, well, it's a lot of my athletes, some of them, they they they like to, when I when i prescribe a muscular endurance workout, like when we're really into this specific part of it towards the end of their training, um they think that they should be carrying this really heavy weight also on their their long workouts, right?
00:44:22
Speaker
memory Three or five-hour one, zone two. And I, you know, I try to communicate it to them that we, we, we have, we need to balance out this training stress, right. And we need to be very specific about this muscular endurance work.
00:44:37
Speaker
If you're going out and doing three, five hour hikes, um, and trying to get your aerobic work in during that and carrying a huge pack, that's not what we want to do.
00:44:48
Speaker
So that's probably the, the most common mistake I see is that people want to jump in. They say, oh, I'm, I'm carrying this weight on my, zone three muscular endurance workout. Why can't I do it on this three to five hour workout? And I i should be doing that too, because why not? Right. It's making me stronger. More is better. Yeah.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great, that's a great point and a common area of, of misunderstanding. And um yeah. like Martin, how about you? What's a, what's something that you've seen people,
00:45:23
Speaker
not um yeah I think there are several of maybe forgetting the downhill part, um maybe um not using terrain steep enough or actually doing the rucking, which is the hiking on flat, thinking that it will be good enough. But we just I just tried to explain to athletes that.
00:45:43
Speaker
For most people, this is just not hard enough. You're definitely doing something, but you're getting better at hiking on the floor, basically carrying some weight. It might be worth for those upper body muscles to keep the posture. I think that there's a benefit, but you need to be efficient with your time and most people are busy. So that one session is a kind of a lost opportunity. It really needs to be specific. And the the most, I think that one of the most important important factors when it comes to mountaineering is the uphill part. We have to do a lot of work to get ourselves up the hill against gravity. That's the physics, right? It's the body mass plus the ah the the weight of our gear.
00:46:23
Speaker
and the gravity factor times the elevation gain. And that's pretty much the energy that but our body our muscles need to produce to get us up there with less and less oxygen and altitude. So is The math is clear. We need to be specific. We need to get those muscles ready for the specific incline. Yeah, I think that's that's one of the the big the big income mistakes.
00:46:49
Speaker
um Yeah, and the other one i would add is that people get addicted to it in the sense of they do it for six or eight weeks they're like, wow, this is amazing. I feel so great. I'm going to do this all the time.
00:47:03
Speaker
And, you know, then they hit a plateau. They start to detrain. You know, this is why we have – this is why training needs to be periodized. It's sort of a living example that. can't just do muscular endurance training all year and continue to get better.
00:47:18
Speaker
and You can do it for probably maybe 16 weeks and and get better if you're paying attention. But anything beyond that is is really probably just science fiction.
00:47:29
Speaker
What do you say – and neither of you can take this, but what do you say to an ultra runner who says they don't do weighted carries? They just do steep uphill repeats because they think that's the same thing. Like what, what's your answer to that? How do you explain the difference between like a uphill, unweighted fast run, like hill repeats versus a muscular endurance workout?
00:47:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think it, uh, you know, we, we need to isolate the, the muscles here. Right. And we need to like really focus on the strength aspect of of what we're trying to achieve in that workout. So if we're just doing uphill repeats, um, and maybe that, that ultra runner is like really tapped into their real, really fit, really tapped in their anaerobic system. And, um, and they're, they're pretty strong too. Right. But we need to add that training stress of,
00:48:30
Speaker
adding some weight and making it really, really hard. mean, that's the point is like, is building the durability through the legs. Right. So I guess that would be my answer is you got to make it hard.
00:48:42
Speaker
but Yeah. And I think you have to load the muscle enough that you can't go fast to, in order to build the strength. And so if you're doing hill repeats, you,
00:48:56
Speaker
you don't have enough load. And at a certain level, you can't run. There's no hill steep enough that you can't run it for some of these athletes, right? They can always run it. And, you know, that would be the only other way to keep the muscle muscular load higher, to just make the hill steeper. But there's a physical limit to that, too. Like once it, you know, gets to 30 or 35 degrees, they're not going to be able to run too easily up but even 45 degrees, maybe like they're not too, and you're using your hands a bit. But yeah, I think that that's, that's how I would explain that to, to folks.
00:49:32
Speaker
How, let's get to closing thoughts. I'd like to, as I like to use this example. Last year I was, uh, in UTMB race here in Chamonix. So, um, I went to watch the ah top three women Champagne Lac, which is, uh, the point where they've been running for very long time.
00:49:51
Speaker
Uh, What does it make it? 15 hours, I don't know exactly, but they still have quite a long way to go, about 55 kilometers to Chamonix, so they've been on their feet for 10, 120 kilometers all the night and part of the day. And so there's this um nasty climb to this Champelac where there's a refreshment point.
00:50:13
Speaker
So i was I saw the three women, they were quite close to each other. And the difference but They were hiking. ah At this point, most of them are hiking, most of the people. And even these three female athletes, and the difference was quite impressive and quite clear.
00:50:28
Speaker
i mean, of course, there are the other factors playing, overall fatigue. But they are they were not breathing hard. They were not out of breath. It was the muscles, the leg muscles, the way, that the cadence, the form. You could see who's training the muscle or endurance, if we can call it, and who's not.
00:50:45
Speaker
And so I think most ah runners, trail runners especially, I mean, ah when it when it comes to running a lot of mileage in the mountains, they don't realize that you will hike a lot of the big part of the of the distance.
00:51:00
Speaker
And so you think hiking will be easy. i will just train the running. So this is, I think, a big mistake that the trail runners make, especially ultra. And ah so, and as Ben said, isolate that factor, right? And as you, Steve said, I'll make it hard, make it slow and hard so that you actually retarget the specific local muscle endurance.
00:51:21
Speaker
ah So I think that make, that can make a huge, huge difference. Yeah. ah My story is the same. I mean, I did a marathon and remember I didn't do any muscular trans training.
00:51:36
Speaker
Um, You know, and i I felt great. Like my, my, my car, my aerobic and aerobic systems were on fire. Like I didn't ran 16 miles and felt great. Right. And then my legs gave out and my heart rate went way down.
00:51:52
Speaker
And I was like, if I would put me on like cross country skis or put me on roller skis right now, I'd take off. Right. But you know, that, that's the, that was a limiting factor. So it pays off. Yeah.
00:52:07
Speaker
It's a great anecdote.
00:52:11
Speaker
Martin, what's your closing insight as we wrap up here? but me, i mean, it's it's really important to understand what is behind like muscle endurance to but think having the definition in front of you to actually understand what's behind.
Sherpas' Endurance: Genetic or Training?
00:52:27
Speaker
ah Maybe another anecdote actually to finish it with is the high-altitude mountaineering. So I really thought about this when I was going to to the Manazlu, to the top of Manazlu a year and a half ago.
00:52:40
Speaker
And ah i think I did well, actually. I was not limited by my muscles. I i could go faster. i was actually limited by the other, which is the altitude. I was not acclimatized enough, so I was just out of breath.
00:52:52
Speaker
for this, my body was really struggling with so i that. The muscles were great. I was like, I just want to go faster. Another thing to add to that is the studies about Sherpas.
00:53:07
Speaker
I think people know about Sherpas, their enormous capacity to carry heavy loads, to help people, to carry down people if if it's needed actually sometimes. And so we can guess that the their muscle endurance is enormous.
00:53:22
Speaker
And actually the studies that I've read, that actually you can see those things that we discussed, the physiological mini factors within the muscle endurance, they are there. They are bodies adapted genetically over generations in these unique ah factors. And of of course that makes their muscle endurance, I think, in a high level. So I think we can take it from from then. We should train that because it will be important up there in the mountains.
00:53:52
Speaker
Ben, any closing insights about durability? Yeah. I mean, I think this is a, it's a very important part of training. Like everybody thinks about it, talks about it. It's a huge topic, um but it's a very small part of it.
00:54:08
Speaker
Right. So like you said before, if we're going to just i be hyper-focused on this and try to do it all the time and make those gains by, jumping in too early with it or doing it for too long and not doing it in a structured, you know, a specific isolated way, it can be a real detriment to your training. So I think it it certainly pays off to, you know, ideally get a coach, um, at least get a training plan and understand these ideas of everything that goes into your endurance training. So you can, most effectively do these workouts and make it count and make it actually work for you. so
00:54:46
Speaker
small part of our training, but it's super important. You can't neglect the rest of it. Yeah, muscular endurance is not a secret. It's been known and it's been studied in sports science literature for decades.
00:55:00
Speaker
We have great articles on the website explaining the full methodology, workout progressions, weighted carry protocols, gym-based muscular endurance workouts that you can follow.
00:55:12
Speaker
That's all free. Go read it. Check out the aobic threshold and aerobic anaerobic threshold testing guides. And before you start muscular endurance block, be sure you know that your AET aerobic threshold is high enough to ah accommodate the the work of the, of the muscular endurance training. The bait, the aerobic base prerequisite is real.
00:55:37
Speaker
And Ben, as you just said, people should use a training plan or even better a coach. you want personalized guidance, all three of us are currently taking athletes. So thank you very much, Martin and Ben.
00:55:53
Speaker
Thanks to everyone for listening. go earn those miles and we'll catch you all in the next one
00:56:12
Speaker
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00:56:29
Speaker
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00:56:40
Speaker
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