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Voice of the Mountains: Season Two Recap
70 Plays10 minutes ago
Longtime friend Kyle Lefkoff — an alpinist, venture capitalist, and IFMGA-certified mountain guide — turns the tables on host Steve House in a wide-ranging reflective conversation facilitated by producer Jamie Lyko. We are deeply grateful to Kyle for joining us: his rare combination of elite climbing experience and high-stakes business acumen made him the ideal interlocutor to draw out the season's most resonant themes. The conversation moves fluidly between the episodes of Season 2, distilling through-lines that span risk tolerance, the explorer's mindset, delayed gratification, childhood intensity, and what it means to successfully "make the turn" from elite athletic performance to a life of purpose and contribution. Steve reflects candidly on his own transition: the accident on Mount Temple in 2010 that forced a reckoning, the decision during COVID to cut the safety net of professional climbing income and go all-in on Uphill Athlete, and the parallel between committing on a big alpine route and committing to a business. Kyle offers a venture capitalist's lens on these same themes — examining how mountain guides develop a risk management fluency that translates directly to high-stakes decision-making in business, and how figures like Greg Penner embody the qualities of deep listening, disciplined time management, and talent recognition that define elite leaders in any arena. The episode closes on an intimate note — three fathers of six boys between them — reflecting on how the intensity that set them apart in the mountains is something they now seek to pass on, not as a liability, but as the seed of something extraordinary.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Voice of the Mountain. Clearly, I am not Steve House, founder and CEO of Uphill Athlete, but he is here. Say hello, Steve, so the audio listeners know you're here. um My name is Jamie Lyko. I am the producer of the Voice of the Mountain podcast as well as the Uphill Athlete podcast.
00:00:17
Speaker
Today we also have with us Kyle Lefkoff, who joined Steve earlier this season. For those who don't know, Kyle has spent nearly four decades as a venture capitalist in Boulder, Colorado, investing in 65 companies, including Array Biopharma, which he co-founded in 1990 until it was acquired by Pfizer in 2019 for $11 billion. dollars But before that, Kyle was a climber and a mountain guide who tested himself around the world, including on the 1986 American expedition to the north face of K2.
00:00:45
Speaker
He was the founding chairman of the board of the American Institute for Avalanche Research and Education, known as ARI, the evidence-based avalanche education authority used by guides and snow professionals across multiple countries in North and South America to help keep our mountain athletes safe.
00:01:03
Speaker
Besides being an accomplished businessman and guide, he's an author, a devoted family man, and a believer in the explorer's mindset.
Invitation to Uphill Athlete Newsletter
00:01:10
Speaker
By his own admission, he lives in Boulder, Colorado, because it's the only place that his job and his pursuits can live side by side.
00:01:26
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan. Head on over to UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:01:43
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
Kyle's Podcast Experience
00:01:58
Speaker
Kyle, welcome back. Thank you, Jamie. appreciate it. i was I was resistant when Steve first asked me to to to be on the Uphill Athlete podcast because I'd never done a podcast before.
00:02:11
Speaker
and You were great. I did my best. It was terrifying. But I'm really pleased today to be on the other side of the table and to interview Steve House as ah as a follow-up to this excellent season of discussions that Steve and you hosted on the podcast with a group of of really experienced alpinists and business people who cross both of those worlds.
Alpinists and Business Intersection
00:02:33
Speaker
And those are really interesting discussions to me because they they they focused the conversation on it on a set of topics that I think are really relevant and that and that now we can turn the tables on Steve and get his feedback having led those conversations.
00:02:48
Speaker
um I'm pleased to introduce Steve House, my my long-term friend and climbing partner. and fellow mountain guide, you know, who who is the greatest American alpinist of his generation. um His record of ascents in the Alaska range, in the Himalayas, in ah in various sub ranges of North America,
00:03:09
Speaker
um are in it as a songbook unparalleled amongst his, amongst his peers, um his success in the mountains and his success now in the business he created uphill athlete gives him a really good perspective to interview the people he did, all of whom I know very well, as it turns out. And I have to say that I, it was not my idea, Steve, that, that, that you talked to John Windsor and Randy Levitt and Greg Penner and,
00:03:36
Speaker
and Peter Metcalf as examples of people who have both industrial experience and successful alpeine Alpine careers. um yeah But you did so, and and some of the themes that emerged from those discussions were both consistent and consistently interesting, I think.
00:03:54
Speaker
So I'd like to focus our our talk today on the on the takeaways from those discussions. i'm Yeah, I'm so glad that you found those interesting. And this is the, you are in a way the, both the audience for the for the interviews, but also for for the listenership, because there's so many incredible business people and entrepreneurs and professionals of every stripe out there in the uphill athlete community, whether they're you know, doctors running a general practice or, you know, venture capitalists or like all kinds of all kinds of contractors, all kinds of people running all kinds of interesting businesses
Mountains and Personal Growth
00:04:34
Speaker
out there. And there is so much, I think, that our our community consistently sells itself short, in my opinion, on like the depth and breadth of skills and intelligence and agency that as ah as a community, we we possess and have and bring to the world.
00:04:51
Speaker
So I want to turn the tables back on you then, Steve, um ah from from our from our review of this year's podcast. One of the things that you consistently ask to everyone, including me, is what ah what do the mountains give to you?
00:05:06
Speaker
What do the mountains give to you? If you look back and at your career, both as an alpinist now and as a business leader, you know what ah what what's your key, what's the number one takeaway that the mountains gave to you in your life?
Risk Perception in Climbing
00:05:21
Speaker
You know I just spent the weekend last weekend with my parents and the topic came up that, you know, course, you're with your you know mom who's in her 80s and she had to for some reason, I don't know how it got to this, but she brought out the baby book.
00:05:37
Speaker
And then like, you know, there's the drawings I made when I was five and it was mountains. So, you know, I'm not sure what the attraction was, but you know, I was always a ah mountain person. Like that was my place. That was my piece. It was also became my community. And I,
00:05:59
Speaker
i I found that just by sheer force of, I'd say, magnetism. I found that in high school with the the friends I made that I started rock climbing and backcountry skiing with. I found that when I went to college with ah a community of climbers and skiers there. I found it, you know, when I went abroad for the first time in a climbing club in Maribor, Slovenia. And so i'd say what mountains have given me is the the through line to everything in my life. Like it's what connects mountains.
00:06:27
Speaker
you know, my, my professional climbing career. It's what connects my guiding career. It's what connects uphill athlete. It's what connects how I spend my, my, my free time. I just got back from an amazing two week trip of ski touring British Columbia in the mountains. There was never any thought of going to the beach or, to you know, whatever, like you know, i'd I like to do that with my kids, but if it's my time and I get to do what I want, then I'm going to spend that time in the mountains. Yeah. So mountains gave you community and they gave you identity.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, absolutely. And and they gave me a professional path. but it But as Melissa Arno pointed out in her segment, they also introduced risk to your life and a level of risk that that that's not typical of the way most people lead their lives.
Client Care vs. Risk Management
00:07:19
Speaker
How do you think about her idea of this toxic risk that that that you have to be so comfortable with putting your life at risk in the lives of others as a mountain guide that it that it's almost a it's almost a liability to be that comfortable with risk?
00:07:38
Speaker
Yeah, it it is interesting. And you and I were just, as we were warming up here, talking about how we've both enjoyed being guided as well as guiding. And i mentioned how hu it's really hard for me to be guided poorly, but I really enjoy being guided well.
00:07:57
Speaker
And that's one of the main things that I'm noticing when I'm being guided, as I was in British Columbia two weeks ago. and
00:08:08
Speaker
It's so interesting as a professional guide to watch and sort of almost read the mind of another guide, making those just
00:08:19
Speaker
It's not just one decision, right? Like it's, it's, it starts days before with knowing what the snow pack is. This is in this case, we're s ski touring. So that's the context. So avalanche risk is the primary hazard. And, and there's just like decision after decision, after decision, after decision, like down to the, it's almost like having a really good mission statement for a company, like the mission statement for the day of being in the mountains is to stay safe. And that defines so many decisions. And the but, but what stay safe means to different people, you know, can be very, very different because we do have different risk tolerances. And I think that one of the jobs of a mountain guide and one of the things that,
00:09:02
Speaker
I think we get do get good at is that we get good at defining what that risk cap is and then getting right up cozy next to it and and not going over it.
00:09:15
Speaker
Like that's the that's the magic. Mountain guides to be successful have to be good at client care and they have to be good at risk management.
Empathy in Training and Guiding
00:09:22
Speaker
yeah Those are two different universes for most people.
00:09:26
Speaker
One of the things that came out in Melissa's melissa's podcast, we use it, You know, sheep she has her own view of risk management. I have no sense of how good she is at client care.
00:09:39
Speaker
You know, what it's like to be in the mountains with her. Same thing with Twight. That dude, you know he's he's great at getting Hollywood celebrities as buff as they can get. you know You saw those guys on the the the the movie he helped make 300 about the defense of Thermopla, which I loved. It was fantastic. And Superman, Henry Cavill. I don't think it's CPI, is it? They're they're authentically ripped you know because of what what Jim Jones did for them, right?
00:10:11
Speaker
So he's really good at that. But how is he at client care? Right. Did he did he did did they come away with, you know, with with a positive view of Mark Twyett after their experience of getting ripped for 300?
00:10:24
Speaker
I think they did, because, you know, Mark's approach is, you know he has this sort of saying that ive I've tried to figure out a way to rip it off without making it sound exactly like what he says. But his saying is the mind is primary.
00:10:38
Speaker
And if you look at it from that perspective, whether, you know, the training of the gym is all based or training outside is all funneling like how like how you how you show up, what your self-talk is, what limits you set on yourself, what like how you allow yourself to expand those limits or not, how you show up for other people that you're training or climbing or skiing with, how you show up for yourself, ah how you're honest or dishonest in all these relationships with yourself and with others. i mean
00:11:18
Speaker
So the mind is primary. And I think I've seen Mark work with with athletes, you know, one-on-one and and in in groups. And, you know, the the the public image of Mark is this tough guy, right? But he's actually an incredibly compassionate, empathetic person, which is also what makes him an incredibly good artist because he he just walks into a room and he can feel – what other people are feeling. He knows what other people are feeling just just by... he he has empathy for the people. He has empathy. training which Which is not what people think of when they think of Mark Twight. And I think that to have good client care, you have to be empathetic.
Guiding and Business Decision-Making
00:11:56
Speaker
Absolutely. And in my 20s, I was a terrible mountain guide in the category of client care because I had no empathy. I was just like...
00:12:04
Speaker
I could charge all day. And if you wanted to be like, go up a route and fast and safe, I was your guy. But, you know, we we probably didn't have a lot of laughs.
00:12:15
Speaker
It's a tough it's a it's a tough line to hoe. What was he like climbing with? Because you actually did a big route with him on, I think, the south face of Denali. You guys climb together. You weren't guiding each other. You were climbing partners. Was he was he a good partner to have on a route like that?
00:12:31
Speaker
And we were climbing partners a bunch, actually, um ah all in Alaska. But we climbed a number of times in Alaska together, including an attempt on the Slovak Direct the year before that where we didn't even get on the route, but we spent a month trying. um So we spent a lot of time together in the mountains. And, you know...
00:12:56
Speaker
our relationship is really easy to be honest. Like we're very different. Um, but yeah, And he and I were talking about this recently because he was trying to write something about one of our experiences together and he was struggling with that nice. And he was comparing it with trying to write about his experiences with one of his other partners who's been on the uphill athlete podcast, Scott Backeys.
00:13:24
Speaker
And he and Scott have this, they bring out the extrovert in each other and they like, you know, are really, so when he writes about Scott, he just has to remember the dialogue and write it down. And it's funny because those guys are funny together. And Mark and I are not funny together. We're, we're very different. we're we're two introverts and we bring out the introvert in one another. So, you know, we would communicate.
00:13:47
Speaker
I remember after the Slovak direct coming down, The next day, we just sat in the tent and he and with the little speakers in the Walkman or in the CD, it was a mini disc player for if you really want to date us.
00:14:02
Speaker
And he just played music for like hours, like three or four hours. We didn't talk. He just DJed, if you will, just played song after song after song. That was a form of communication and a very deep form of communication. And it was an amazing experience. And I still like it goosebumps thinking about it. But we weren't like, I don't know.
00:14:23
Speaker
being a bros or high-fiving each other or being like, you know, la we were we had our own way of communicating. Did you feel like his decision-making under conditions of uncertainty and his risk management were were on point in those in those expeditions? you yeah saying He was more conservative than I am.
00:14:44
Speaker
Huh. the reason That's not a public persona, obviously. Yeah, but I think the reason is that, and I think you would agree with this, at that point in his career, my career respectively, i was i was a better climber. And so I could do things that he couldn't do um safely.
00:15:06
Speaker
So, you know, this is this is where the intersection and this is one of the things I wanted to get out of these topics with business leaders and is like, as you get better at something, you can control the risk more carefully because you can do things more precisely. you know the outcomes, you've seen the, you've done the enough reps through this thing that you kind of like, okay, you you know how close you can you can go. Right. and ah and ah that's one of the things that made it hard as getting becoming an older alpinist and and seeing those abilities decline i also had to decline reduce my risk tolerance and it and it felt like my world was crumbling in a way if that makes sense even though not that's that's being dramatic but it it wasn't it wasn't ever the same as it had been and that's that's i think another adjustment i was wondering
00:15:57
Speaker
ah For both you guys, um you to talk about being being guides. You talk about risk management and how it changes. um Risk assessment, I should say. we're Did you guys both consciously...
Climbing Risks vs. Business Challenges
00:16:10
Speaker
When you went into business, did you did you feel it immediately that you had to step up on other people because you could look at things that way? Because you were taking into account client care, looking after the people that work for you, but also wanting to take big swings in business? Did did that click as something like, oh, that's something, that's a right I already to have that arrow in my quiver? Or did it take time to realize like, oh, this was I really learned these really valuable lessons on the mountain that can apply?
00:16:38
Speaker
Jamie, I think that when you're a mountain guide, you can never turn it off, even when you're being guided by somebody else. And the same is true in business. you know When you're a mountain guide, you can't not be a mountain guide, even if it's a business meeting. you know And and it kind of it kind of that experience informs the way you lead your life.
00:17:01
Speaker
i don't know how Steve feels about that, but that's my that's my position. Yeah, I had this experience a few years ago where I was, um you know, as you said, Jamie, taking a big swing. I was trying to build business.
00:17:15
Speaker
AI model for building workouts for, for mountain athletes. And it was expensive and it was terrifying. And I was like from the biz and I, and I needed to, I wanted to bootstrap it. I want a meaning that I wanted to just fund it from my own revenue of the company. So I stopped taking a salary for a long time. i just put everything into this thing, lived off some savings and it was really scary.
00:17:45
Speaker
And i had a lot of really sleepless nights. And ever during every one of those sleepless nights, I would just think to myself like, man, this isn't as scary as being halfway up Nanga Parbat with no way to go back down except going to the summit.
00:18:02
Speaker
This isn't as scary as like I could come up with 50 nights. examples because you know i wasn't going to die you know i could i could i could maybe go bankrupt would be the worst thing or i could not pay the next invoice to the computer scientists that were running the the model building but i wasn't going to die i was going to lose my life and so i was able to be comfortable with a lot a large amount of discomfort that I think that most people wouldn't
Explorer's Mindset in Climbing and Business
00:18:33
Speaker
be.
00:18:33
Speaker
And that actually, in a way, at the time, ah you know, i i don't remember if we talked about this, Kyle, but I i thought of that like, man, this is actually kind of a competitive advantage because very few people are going to be able to be this uncomfortable.
00:18:49
Speaker
And the only other way to do this... The worst that happens to you as a venture capitalist is you lose someone else's money. That's not a it's not a consequence. It's mountain guides that we worry about. Right.
00:19:00
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So, that so that, that felt like I could, you know, good information. Like I can push through this. It's scary, but that also means that a lot of people are going to peel off at this point and not compete with me beyond this point.
00:19:15
Speaker
Of course, that whole thing didn't really work, but I mean, but kind of it didn't work, but that's kind of the way things, these things go and we're still here and we survived and we're onto to the next thing. Let me ask you about Windsor's interview, because I thought that was one of my favorites and really interesting. And of course, he been so good you know, and and and John and I have been friends and climbing partners and ski partners for decades. And I served on the board of one of his publishing companies.
00:19:39
Speaker
And his dad, John Windsor Sr., who was a publisher himself, was an early investor in my venture capital fund. So so there's ah a long history there. of the two of us. So I was really happy to to see your your your you know your your session with him. and it was also interesting because in recent years, John teaches, as you know, at the Harvard Business School and he has this has this role there. and And I've seen him speak in his role at the Harvard Business School and he's super pedantic and East Coast stuffy.
00:20:10
Speaker
you know, the academic speak kind of stuff. That was not the case on your podcast. he He elucidated some really interesting ideas and he's a very big, very clear thinker about the issues that he thinks about, which is the future of work and how AI impacts civilization basically.
00:20:28
Speaker
And one of the, one of the things that, one of the themes that came out of that was, was this idea that I hadn't heard before because it's that he calls the explorer's mindset where you're, It's kind of his job to look over the horizon, see something other people haven't seen, to go out there and get it not just talk about it, but go out there and get it and bring it back and operationalize it in the context of of of of his world, which I thought was a really interesting idea.
00:20:54
Speaker
You know, and so I wanted to explore that with you a little bit of how how that idea is is maybe a common theme now for for climbers, alpinists and business people that that that explores mindset.
Evolution of Climbing Profession
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah, I want to tell you a little story. You know, who Chuck Pratt is right. Very well. Tell the audience who Chuck Pratt was. Chuck Pratt was one of the four great rock climbers of the Royal Robins, Yvonne Chouinard, Chuck Pratt, Tom Frost era in Yosemite in the 60s. And the four of them made the first ascent of the North American Wall in 1966, I think, which at the time was the hardest big wall in the world. It was the first time Americans had been in the post-war era had been the best climbers in the world.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yeah, that's very well spoken. Thank you for explaining that on the spot with no prep. I worked at Exxon Mountaineering as a mountain guide one summer, and I worked next to...
00:21:58
Speaker
Next to Chuck Pratt. And he was a huge character. This would have been 2000. He used to teach. He was in his 70s, I want to say then. And he would only teach the basic rock climbing classes, which were pretty good money, but, you know, kind of boring. And he would spice it up by asking the students, all kinds of trivia.
00:22:20
Speaker
And one day he, I was just, I was just assisting him. And his question was, which of the four first ascensionists of the North American wall? So your introduction was perfect, Kyle is not a millionaire today.
00:22:35
Speaker
and of course the answer is, like, these people didn't even know, first of all, they don't know what a first ascent is. They don't know what the North American Wall is. Like, they they don't know, you know chuck you know, Tom Frost's name. You know maybe they know Yvonne Chouinard.
00:22:49
Speaker
And of course they people would have, and the answer was him. And that idea kind of stuck with me and has been part of...
00:23:00
Speaker
You know I think that in the, and I talked with John Windsor about this a little bit, and in your era, his era of climbing, there was no path to being a professional climber. It simply did not exist. And arguably, like maybe the one generation ahead of me was the first generation, the the Conrad Anker and Lynn Hill generation, was the first generation to kind of be able to make that happen.
00:23:25
Speaker
I think one of the great problems with climbing people becoming professional climbers is you took, you know, this incredible energy that those types of people bring into the world and just kind of gave them an easy job. Let's be honest, like being a paid alpinist was like the easiest job I've ever had in my life and and will have. And Before that, it was like, you know, look at the things that you, your generation and Yvonne Chouinard's generation, Tom Frost, Royal Robbins, look at like Royal, Tom and Yvonne themselves, like those three people, know, and started and and ran incredible companies. The North Face, you know, with Doug, Doug Tompkins this is another one of those that came out of that same era, founded in that same time, like 1966, 67, 68, somewhere in there.
00:24:21
Speaker
that you know, you guys just crushed it. And i think that I feel like my generation didn't really do much ah in that way. And i think, I don't know why, why that is, but I always thought like, man, you know, who, cause I spent a lot of time with the Chouinards and Yvonne is you know The more time – he's one of these rare individuals. The more I got to know him, the more he was my hero. And I just thought, man, like this guy i look up to so much.
00:24:51
Speaker
How can ever do – how can you ever do what what what he did in his lifetime?
Impact of Business and Climbing
00:24:58
Speaker
It's just incredible. And I started to realize like the the business is actually – his business at Patagonia was by far his biggest lever in making, leaving the world a better place, which was kind of what it comes down to for most of us is just trying to, you know, in life, like how do we make, how do we leave the, how do we go through life making, making the world better and ultimately leaving it a little better than we found it. And, uh, Shunard is a classic example of this explorer's mindset, I think yep of going out the rise and saw things that no one else could see.
00:25:31
Speaker
I mean, he was visionary in tool making and in and product, a product visionary is how I describe him. 100%. And brought it back and actualized it and made a big business out of it.
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah. I'm critical. Black Diamond. Right. um I'm critical Chouinard in other ways, though, as a business guy, because because as a business guy, I have, you know, some some experiences and some and some knowledge and some expertise that that that are that diverge from his practice at Patagonia. He built Patagonia in his image, and he and Melinda owned all of it.
00:26:07
Speaker
And he It was very important to him to control that deficit. He's a control freak, and he never wanted to give any of it to anyone. But he created this mythos around, you know, let my people surf and how great it would be to be an employee at Patagonia. He was a billionaire on on Patagonia.
00:26:27
Speaker
Nobody else who worked for him was ever a billionaire. Nobody else spent any money at Patagonia, just Shinar. That's true. Is that an indictment of of him? In my opinion, yes, because in the venture capital world, our job is to not only build successful companies that produce products and services that improve the lot of everyone, but that everyone shares in that success.
00:26:52
Speaker
Every single person in Array Biopharma had stock in the company when we sold it to Pfizer. that that Those shares went all the way through the cap table, and we were all partners and all shared in that success.
00:27:04
Speaker
And that was not true at at Patagonia. So i think it's I think it's, you know, kind of the irony that he gets lauded as this great capitalist and this awesome creator of this environmental ethos. I do think that capitalism is incredible. I do think that business is the best way to have a large impact in the world.
00:27:29
Speaker
Like, i don't that I don't feel that I can have a large impact on the world through my vote as an American citizen. i wish I wish I felt differently about that, but reality is like I'm one of 300 and whatever million people, some 40% of which actually vote. And, you know, I don't feel like I'm swaying national policy. But but you can have an impact through your business.
00:27:58
Speaker
But I do can and do once it gets to a certain level, I can I can absolutely do that. And I think it's the same. Like with climbing, I tell young climbers us all the time, the rewards and the impact come after you've done all the things like I didn't start making money as a professional climber until after I climbed the RuPaul face and I'm a power bot.
00:28:20
Speaker
Like I was 34 years old at that point. I had been climbing hard for 14 live you know, on $12,000 a year. That was the most money I ever made before I was 34 was $12,000. And then I started to be able to make a living and I started to be able to make ah a good living. And I never climbed anything remotely as amazing as K7 or Nanga Parbat. Again, in my opinion, but I got all the reward on the back end. And that's, I think, the way a lot of it works in business, too. You you have to build the business and it has to grow and be something that people are attracted to and aspire to and participate in and love as a brand.
Delayed Gratification in Success
00:29:03
Speaker
And then... on the back end of that, you can you can lever that into something that you know you want to see in the world. Well, of course, the explorer's mindset going across the horizon, picking the you know picking the thing, bringing it back, operationalizing, it's not generally recognized till later and rewarded until later. So that's ah that's a common experience, both in your career as your career as business person. yeah Mm-hmm.
00:29:30
Speaker
Delayed gratification is key. Delayed gratification is the key to success because it takes a long time to create human capital. Yeah. Lead human capital doesn't occur right away. it takes a long, long time.
00:29:42
Speaker
yeah how many How many decades of crack climbing experience does Alex Honnold have to produce you know his one great moment in sport you know that's now set him to set him up to be the iconic climber of his generation?
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 15 year overnight sensation story. What did you think about his his Netflix doc on the ah climbing the building in Taipei? i've I didn't really think about it, to be honest.
00:30:11
Speaker
I hope that he was paid some good money. um i you know, I'm sure that he, that's why he did it. Like that's, that's not a labor of love. He didn't, you know, have a picture. My, my guess is that he did not have a picture of the Taipei tower taped to his bedroom wall for the last seven years, dreaming about it every night. Um,
00:30:35
Speaker
So, you know, i think i think that he's earned it. I think he earned the right to do whatever the hell he wants off of his successes and his career. And he took massive risks and he applied maximum discipline and focus and toil and work to be able to do what he did. And, you know, he's got a wife and kids now and he should be reaping the, we should monetize it. Yeah. Because yeah, he certainly wasn't getting paid very much when he was living in his van in Yosemite climbing 300 days a year. I expected not to like it just because it's silly and, you know, building all these people and the whole made for television kind of thing.
Climbers on Risk and Growth
00:31:23
Speaker
And I really enjoyed it ah because he was having fun. The joy that he takes in goofing around on this, you know, look what they're letting me do here. This is awesome. You know, the joy he had, I like that.
00:31:38
Speaker
I like that. i didn't better I haven't seen any of it. And in real life, like Alex is kind of a introverted and somewhat goofy person. So I'm glad that he could be goofy and have that be himself and be rewarded for that. That's, that's fantastic. That's all any of us can hope for.
00:31:54
Speaker
You know, in your episode with Randy Levitt, which I also loved and I love Levitt, but Levitt's got a different kind of spin. His spin is climbing doesn't matter. Nothing we do here matters.
00:32:07
Speaker
And I kind of get where he's coming from. And it's also part of his business life because he's a real estate guy, you know, and he's not Sam Zell or Donald Trump or, or or you know, one of these captains of of of ah real estate. He built a nice personal real estate portfolio over time and monetized that human capital. He's obviously really good at it, I think.
00:32:31
Speaker
um You know, and he was a great, great trad climber in my generation. Absolutely. One of the top trad climbers, you know, but he morphed into guy who set up hard sport routes and just sport climbed all the time.
00:32:43
Speaker
You know, sport climbing doesn't matter in a climbing sense. You know, it's it's kind of like bowling. you you You go, you take your family out, you have ah you have a great time, and then you turn your smelly shoes in and, you know, go to go eat pizza.
00:32:57
Speaker
it's not it's not It's not actually, there's actually nothing there, you know, to sport climbing. And I think that's kind of his perspective on climbing is is it's informed by his sport climbing. Do you think that's true?
00:33:09
Speaker
but In contrast, You know, my favorite interview of the whole series was Greg Penner, who I don't know, although I have, and you know, high respect for in his position.
00:33:21
Speaker
and Amazing guy. an Amazing guy. And, you know, the chairman of Walmart, the owner of the the Denver Broncos, who's really transformed both in an era when either could have died as iconic businesses in someone else's hands.
00:33:37
Speaker
yeah And who really thinks deeply, I think, about his role in business, his role in life, and his role as an alpinist as exemplified
Values and Decision-Making Lessons
00:33:48
Speaker
by his decision-making under conditions of uncertainty in on Everest. I mean, there he was faced with an absolute splitter day in position you know, with the right guides and the right stuff and, you know, ready to summit at 8,000 meters on the South coal and headed up the hill and the regulators fail, you know?
00:34:09
Speaker
And he makes the decision to go down, right? That, you know, my life isn't, I'm i'm not going to end my life here on the South Ridge of Everest because my regulator's not working.
00:34:20
Speaker
I'm going down. yeah That's real insight from a from a guy who's the chairman of Walmart. Yeah, I think it's he's i think just such an amazing guy and you know one of the most humble and yeah you can't find anything on Greg online.
00:34:41
Speaker
like Like the internet has been scrubbed of all mention of of him or any of his accomplishments or anything he does. And I don't think that's actually on purpose. I don't think it's been scrubbed per se. I think he just is not a person that needs – external validation in any way, shape or form. He's just is interested in doing the things because of the process processes that he's engaged in, in doing those things. And I, you know,
00:35:13
Speaker
I think it's re one of the, one of the moments when I think you find out I think one of the interesting things about climbing that i had to learn and one of the interesting things in parallel about business that I had to learn separately of running a small business is that you kind of, you, it's a, both are good ways to find out who you are and what your values are because they get tested And we often don't know who we are, what our values are until we kind of come up against the limits of them. And then we're like, ah, that's a little too far That's not far enough.
00:35:47
Speaker
And i started off i was obviously as a climber mountain guide and i felt like felt like I was prepared for everything. And then when I got into running a small business, I felt like I was prepared for nothing.
00:36:00
Speaker
Like I, you know, I was like, what am I doing? Like, I have no idea like how to do X, Y, Z, you know, just think of anything, whether it was like,
00:36:12
Speaker
what to say, how to fire someone, what to say that we, that that needed to be exited or, ah you know, how to hire someone that we needed to fill this particular position or how to train someone because we needed to bring in another coach.
00:36:26
Speaker
Like there's ah a million things I just had no idea how to do as a human being. And you find out very quickly kind of, you know, If you are with with climbing, you can kind of fake it until you make it to a certain extent, right? Like, but then there's those moments where your regulators fail high on Everest and you can't like, you can't fake it until you
Client Relationships and Learning
00:36:51
Speaker
make it. You just have to decide and you have to know exactly who you are, exactly who your values are. And you have to know it like that. Like you've got two minutes to decide. You don't have like all day. You can't call a committee meeting. can't call like three friends. You can't hire McKinsey to do a study for you. can't hire McKinsey to do a study. No, none of that. Like you've got to know right now. And if you don't make the decision in the next two minutes, a decision will be made for you and you're going die.
00:37:17
Speaker
So at some point, that's a good insight into Penner's mindset and his decision making under conditions uncertainty. I think what came out for me also in that podcast was that he must be a very good judge of talent and manager of people. He must have a good eye for who to rely on and how to and how to manage those relationships.
00:37:39
Speaker
Did you get that from him? Yeah. And, you know, I've, I've had the pleasure to get to know him a little bit because he's worked with me as a guide and with my friend, Vince Anderson is a mountain guide.
00:37:50
Speaker
And I've been able to go skiing with him in Aspen and and ski touring. And, you know, one the, when I'm around someone like that, like I just try to keep my mouth shut and like, listen and watch because I'm trying to figure out like, you know,
00:38:06
Speaker
I try, you know, it's it's always so cool. it's such an amazing experience. And this is one of the things that got really boring for me with climbing. going sound arrogant but here, but I was never the dumbest person in the room in the climbing rooms. And that got a little boring to just be kind of, quote unquote, the smartest guy or the most experienced guy or one of them.
00:38:27
Speaker
And, you know, when when I stopped learning, you know, I got, I found that a little, ah ah not a lot of stimulation. And so with with Greg, it's hard because the guy actually doesn't talk that much, right? Like he's ah he's a pretty quiet, pretty soft-spoken guy. um And it's hard to figure out actually what...
00:38:49
Speaker
he does. But I think that that was ultimately what I realized is like, he's observing. a He's asking questions. The questions are only five words, seven words, 10 words long. And then he's getting like 15 minutes of answer.
00:39:04
Speaker
And that's the skill. Right. Like to so like watch, figure out what to ask and then ask and then get like get an answer that elucidates some aspect of the problem that he's trying to solve or thinking about. And that's a really, really cool skill to have. And I, yeah, he's he's he's an incredible person. When you spend time with him in the field, was he guidable?
00:39:30
Speaker
she Was he good client? Yeah. quiet yeah Very, very good. um and like, 100, like, the hundred like one of the best, right? Like listened, followed directions, didn't not do what you said. Like if you said climb to the left side of the the waterfall, not the right side, he he did that. If you said leave that screw because we're going to use it as a directional on the way down, he did that.
Childhood's Influence on Development
00:39:57
Speaker
Like it was it was he was a ah a joy joy to climb. He really he he really listens. Maybe that's the the key takeaway. That guy, that guy, Has a keen ear what people to him.
00:40:13
Speaker
Here's something that I struggle with a lot in my day-to-day is staying or staying organized and keeping my priorities like sorted properly. And he, i think, also has a superpower for that. He's incredibly tightly scheduled. he's you know I was late today to to you know by 15 minutes, you guys, because i was on another podcast and and it went over and I...
00:40:38
Speaker
that Greg would have never done that. Right. Like that's and and I know that. And, when i you know, and and he he would he's when he says he's going to be there at eight o'clock, he's there at eight o'clock. He's not there at 755 either. When he says he needs to go at 230, he goes at 230. And it's he's very well structured and as seems to be able to set his priorities down.
00:41:00
Speaker
really effortlessly. There's a lesson in that for you, Steve, as a business person. Yeah. hundred percent. hundred percent. And even as I was being late today, I was thinking about it like, oh God, like, you know, Kyle would not late. Kenner would not be late. Like, I mean, Like people who could perform it, they protect their time and they figure out how to get things done on time and on task and not mess around. I think that's another thing. He's incredibly efficient. Like he just gets a lot done in a short amount of time.
00:41:33
Speaker
One of the things that I, i wouldn't before you showed up or you were late, Jamie and I were talking about some of the past episodes and my experience being interviewed from podcasts this year. And one of the things I was surprised about was pretty much in all episodes, it certainly surprised me in our discussion, was how you immediately went to everyone's childhood and your experiences as a child and how that informed your growth and development as a human and how it led to your climbing and to your alpinism and your guiding and your business career whatever.
00:42:05
Speaker
Right. And what why was that? what What is it about childhood experiences that are interesting to you in this podcast that you think, you know, that that you focused on and what do you take away from those?
00:42:18
Speaker
know, what's the synthesis of those discussions? Yeah, that's a good question. I honestly didn't do that. on purpose? I mean, Jamie, maybe maybe you helped create those questions. Maybe you had an idea there, but I didn't necessarily realize that until you just said that. I i might have. i I mean, I am very, I mean, a few guests have talked about experiences in childhood and, you know, how they formed their resiliency and how that resiliency has helped them on the mountain in business. i i think, um and I'm i' not done, do we only had men as guests, but I think being a father, like I'm very interested in like how people's different childhoods can kind of create,
00:43:06
Speaker
you know, different kinds of adults and, you know, kind of also having to accept that there is no code to crack, like you never know. But um yeah, I mean, being the father to two boys, I think maybe i want to, to be honest, guide them maybe away from being alpinist and being exposed to so much risk in some ways. But um yeah, I, I,
00:43:30
Speaker
you you do very much lean into those questions, whether I'm sliding them in there
Climbing Community Personalities
00:43:35
Speaker
purposefully or not. um The conversation, kay as as Kyle observes, does often come back to that.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, and each one of us is a father to two boys. We have six boys between us, so that's kind of ah a fun parallel. But I think one of the things that I've learned, because as an alpinist and even as a mountain guide,
00:43:57
Speaker
you know, I was often very focused on being efficient. And it's like, you know, it's like we're burning daylight. It's that idea. Like as soon as the alarm goes off, It doesn't matter if it goes off at 1230 AM and you have a big objective for that day, you're burning daylight. Like you need to be like, go, go, go.
00:44:14
Speaker
And it was very hard for me to not, when, when uphill athletes started to get to this point that we had meetings, because there was more than one person, more than a couple of people, we needed to ah align on various things or execute different projects or work on things together.
00:44:30
Speaker
I started off that way. I just would like dive in like, here's the here's the thing. We got to decide this. what is What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Okay, we're going to make a decision done out. And one of the things I learned from is and ah and and you're very good at this, Kyle. I've observed this in you for years.
00:44:48
Speaker
People who are good in business are good at connecting with other people. And i think ah questions about people's childhood and how do they came to the mountains, for me, i think it was really in a way to connect.
00:45:01
Speaker
to the person, to the human, and and like a little vulnerability going like it's vulnerable to talk about yourself as a kid. Cause you know, not all of us had amazing childhoods. I mean, I, I think I did, but not everybody did. And so, um I think that was the purpose of of those questions was- It was connection. It in connection was a connection But it also highlighted in most cases, Metcalf and me and Windsor and and you know and Leavitt, that we were intense kids. We were all intense kids. and
00:45:36
Speaker
And the community you've built at Uphill Athletes, it's kind of a community for people who are too intense for the rest of the world. you know is that Is that a fair statement? I think that is a fair statement, you know, and I think I picked up on that in the first season, you know.
00:45:53
Speaker
i was just started looking at the guests we had in the first season when we were working on the second season, and it's like Vince Anderson and Barry Blanchard and Will Gadd, and I mean – All super intense people. And I often felt out of place in society due to my intensity. And I have particularly one of my boys is also really intense and a little ADHD. And I see the other kids sort of like back off from him because he's just like taking up all the space and all the energy.
00:46:25
Speaker
And like people don't know how to navigate around that. And i've have often felt kind of ashamed of that and felt like I often held, like held myself back because because I, well, because i felt like there was something wrong with
Parenting and Identity Nurturing
00:46:41
Speaker
me. I was made at various points to make, I was in, there's a story, there's a personal story. I don't know, maybe we can edit this out if we don't like it, but I went to a public high school, but there were these AP classes, the advanced placement classes. And it was very competitive to get into these classes. And I was in all the AP classes and I had this really elderly English teacher in my AP English class. And one at least one day a week, she would just have the class do strange exercises because she enjoyed seeing how smart the class was.
00:47:18
Speaker
And anytime there was one of one of the times it was mazes, and I'm very good with visual things. Like I can just look at a maze, kind of defocus, and I see the thing and I can just draw the front. Like, I don't know why. It's also why I'm good at navigating in the mountains. I can visualize terrain really well.
00:47:35
Speaker
That's just part of my brain works. Don't know why. She got so mad at me. Because she and she made me do maze after maze after maze. And these other kids who are you know, um one of them was, you know, top top in his class at Yale Law years later. Like these are some really smart kids. Like they were struggling to do these mazes. And she was like, yeah she told me, you're so stupid.
00:48:02
Speaker
Like this is a teacher telling me, yelling at me that I'm so stupid. Like she, she was so mad that I could do the maze because she expected me to be the worst because she thought I was so stupid. You know, and that guy that got, like, that was one of ah several things that happened in my developing life where, you know, I was made to feel like I was not okay the way I was. And it wasn't anybody in my family. It was always teachers or and Boy Scouts or some of these other areas and activities that I was in. And that was, so I learned to pull back. I learned to hold myself back.
00:48:38
Speaker
there Weren't there other example counter examples in your early childhood of people who celebrated your intensity? My parents, for sure. Like my mom being a school teacher, she like kind of would lesson plan my days for me ah in a wonderful way. Right. And got me involved in like saying like, hey, you'd be you'd really like the Boy Scouts. And like, that was amazing for me because I just had this I just had these checklists and I just had to go through and do one thing after another. And then I'd get these little rewards every once in a while. then I'd do the next thing.
00:49:08
Speaker
um But like in things like. ah individual sports was another place where like that intensity was rewarded because you're just like intense for yourself. You're not having to like pay attention to how everybody else is doing or feeling.
00:49:23
Speaker
Right. Well, you know, now with your two young boys, parenting them into adulthood is really the only important thing you do. Everything else in your life, as you know, now is trivial.
00:49:39
Speaker
That's the thing you do that's most important in your life, you know? so So what do you take away from that? Having the intense boys that you would expect to have, being you, what do you take away from that experience that informs how you as a parent are going to raise those boys into a successful adulthood?
Inspiring Children through Climbing
00:49:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's it's really interesting because particularly for my older boy, he I feel like he's my carbon copy. And i'm so ah I have so much empathy for him. i can you know like but The younger one, it's a little harder for me to read, um but particularly Francie, like...
00:50:15
Speaker
Like whatever he's feeling, I'm feeling in my own body. Like it's just that's the way the connection is. And you recognize he's watching you like a hawk. It it doesn't matter what you tell him.
00:50:26
Speaker
He's emulating you. yeah and Yeah. Yeah. And that that that has been that has been such a test, right? Because, you know, we're human and we're imperfect and, you know, we lose our, you know,
00:50:41
Speaker
I lose my temper. That's part of being an intense person and I can get really angry. And then I see him getting really angry and and i was like, Oh God, hes he you know, that was that I, that was me. Like I did that. Like now he saw that now he's modeling that, um you know? And so I have to be better at like, you know, you're the role model.
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah. I'm the role model. And, and I have to, um I'm very much a parent that is trying to raise my kids to solve their own problems too. um And, you know, there's, you know, and if you can't solve the problem, then come to daddy for help. Like if your brother's bothering you and you want to smack him and you don't know what else to do other than just smack him, then, then come to me for help and I'll work through it with you and we'll find another solution other than smacking your brother. yeah Like big part of your parenting is, is
00:51:41
Speaker
giving them agency, yeah yeah allowing them to to to fend for themselves and in every respect that they can. i you know i was i was really you know in a mode where I didn't really have, i think, the a lot of the role models I needed. And I've lived, you know i wanted to be raised by mountain guides in Boulder, Colorado. I didn't get that chance.
00:52:05
Speaker
You know, so I'm in a way I'm living vicariously through my children and my parenting of my two boys because I, you know, this is This is the model that I would have wanted to have been presented with um for me in my childhood that I and improved on to to give to them. And I'm really, ah you know, it's the greatest thing in my life to see how they've turned out as adults now.
00:52:28
Speaker
You know, that they they have agency and they're yeah they're they're good boys. And that's that's really the only important thing we do, honestly. All this other stuff is pretty trivial. And helping them...
00:52:40
Speaker
ah particularly francy again know how to channel his intensity in a positive way into something other than i don't know video games or whatever right it would be the the lowest common denominator thing but um yeah that's it's pretty fun actually it's mostly just a lot of fun especially now that we can ski everything like i'm getting into that era where we can just ski everything now and it's you know do things like that together that are just so much fun it's the best period because you know they haven't gotten older whether they're they're like they're like six and eight now or or seven and ten yeah seven and ten okay they're fully operational they can get out on the hill with you and do everything you want to do with them they can enjoy that they love you and they love hanging out with you and you're going to have this period where you can do that stuff with them and travel all over the place and
00:53:28
Speaker
you know, really have those adventures with them all the way till they get to their sort of mid-teens and start developing their own relationships that supersede your, your, your, you know, your dad.
Transitioning from Climbing to Business
00:53:40
Speaker
And they get to, I take, I try to really get them out with my friends. I have just like yourself. I mean, I have so many incredible friends. Like this summer, we're going to go on and a wilderness backpacking trip and Mark Twight's going to come.
00:53:53
Speaker
Nice. You know, like how, I mean, Mark's a very particular, but like it's they're going to love Mark and it's going to be really good for Mark too, by the way. he doesn't have any kids, does he?
00:54:04
Speaker
He has no kids. Okay. Yeah. yeah But he's a very – he's just a great person and I want them – they can just like spend – They need to used to the idea that there's all these dad's friends who are also intense and also have these interesting lives. And they do cool stuff and you have a chance to hang out with them.
00:54:23
Speaker
I mean my kids grew up with their Uncle Strappo and their Uncle Stevie Haston and their – You know, their Uncle Crusher, they thought that was awesome, you know, to have these adventures with these guys. And they they're fully empowered now in their lives to just call those guys up and go ski and climb and do stuff. They don't need me to go climb with a strap-up, you know. It's pretty interesting.
00:54:44
Speaker
That's great. So let me let me let me finish our conversation with it with with, I think, one of the key themes that that came out of your discussion, not just with the athletes and business people this year, but also the first season, with the which was more of a season about super athletes, really, you know, world-class athletes, um which is their ability to make the turn from the best in the world at what they were doing to the rest of their lives.
00:55:12
Speaker
who you've made the successful turn from being America's greatest alpinist of your generation to a successful business guy who's helped who's actually giving something back to the next generation of athletes and helping helping them helping bring them up and building a successful business, right? You made that turn. It didn't destroy your ego. It didn't cause depression and anxiety. It was not always the case for most proeth for a lot of pro athletes, not all lot of pro athletes have a really hard time making that transition, right? what What do you think informed your success at making the turn from the top to the top athlete to a successful business person?
00:55:53
Speaker
Well, I would say that it caused ah anxiety and depression. And I would just say generally that it was very hard. And it took way longer than i thought, right? Like I thought that I could...
00:56:07
Speaker
do this and a do that in a couple of years. And ah you know your description feels very generous to compared to what my actual experience was because it was super hard.
00:56:19
Speaker
and
00:56:23
Speaker
Also because there was a path to just sort of continuing to be on the dole, as I like to call it, with Patagonia and Gravel and La Sportiva and just sort of show up at some trade shows and some ice climbing festivals and um make a decent middle class income and have like a really easy life.
00:56:46
Speaker
But it felt um so Twight and I used to have a rule when we were both active climbing that we could if we did a slideshow, we couldn't speak about anything that had happened more than two years ago, two years in the past. That was our cutoff. And so as I was even like getting to 40 and I was still talking about Nangar Parbat, which had happened five years prior and I wasn't, there was really no more, so ah not, well, there were some small ones, but nothing of that magnitude in terms of stories that I had to tell. it started to feel ah like I needed to do something else. And really it comes down to this experience I had on Mount Temple in 2010. As you'll remember, i had this really bad accident. I almost died. had a couple of hours waiting for Steve Holetsy in the
00:57:37
Speaker
uh perks canada rescue crew to fly and pluck and pick me off of there and this incredible long line rescue that was super risky and they completely saved my life and if they hadn't done that i would not be here and i had time to think about if i die today What am I happy about? one of it What I wish would have been different? And there was three things. One was I was happy with the climbing I'd done. I hadn't done everything i wanted to do, but I'd done a lot. I'd done more than most. And that was ah a box that was checked. I had not had a family and I had not given anything back to my community, in my opinion.
00:58:14
Speaker
And so now is the time of my life where I'm checking boxes one and two, you know, or three and four or two and three or however you want to count it. And that still is what weeks week gets me out of bed every day. You know, both both things like taking care of my kids, raising my kids, being a good dad, giving them good experiences, introducing them to amazing places, amazing people.
00:58:40
Speaker
we were talking about like Revelstoke and earlier before the podcast started, like if you had told me in 1990, the first time I rolled up to Rogers pass and put skins on my skis, how many days of my life I would spend skiing in that little mountain range there.
00:59:00
Speaker
ah I would have been blown away. Like, i don't know how many nights of my life I've spent in Revelstoke. Hundreds. Hundreds. Hundreds of days. Yeah. In the Columbia mountains of Canada.
00:59:11
Speaker
hundred hundred percent. And and then hundreds in Chamonix and hundreds in Canmore and, know, dozens Huaraz you know, dozens in juarraz and ah you know I've spent two years of my life in the country of Pakistan, 24 months of my life I've spent in the Karakorah mountains of Pakistan.
00:59:34
Speaker
And, you know, I didn't know that that was how, you know, and and now I'm going to like, i really want to introduce my kid and I'll tell him now, like, hey, do you want that? pay attention because this is a place you're likely going to be coming back to your entire life. And the layout doesn't really change. The the church in Chamonix is always going to be over here. Flegere lift is always going to be here. you know, this is always going to probably be, you know, ah you know, where, ah oh what is, Oh, I'm forgetting the name of That little hole in the wall, like burger joint um ah is on the route of a card. That's always going to be there. Like, you know,
01:00:14
Speaker
And I think that that's- It's a metaphor for their lives because a lot of things in their lives are going to change. Yeah. But a lot of things that you've experienced and that you're expert at, that you've mastered, are going to stay the same. And that's what you want to try to pass along to them, right?
01:00:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really good.
Future Plans and Podcast Impact
01:00:31
Speaker
You know, having made the turn though, and having experienced your, yeah having fallen off the north face of temple and almost died,
01:00:39
Speaker
right and and being heroically rescued. I know the CMH pilot who who long lined you off of that thing. iss one of the best in the business. The guy's unbelievable. I've flubbed, belly skied with him a ton of times. the the the Do you feel like that was the the break with your past that enabled you to experience your future?
01:01:03
Speaker
That was a break. Okay. Do you think that your guests that you've, over the last two seasons, who've made the transition, who who made the turn successfully, had a break like that?
01:01:17
Speaker
I don't. Well, so in season one, most of them didn't. And most of them, I think, didn't make the turn or were trying to make the turn and were in the middle of the turn. And i think in season two, it was people who, you know, integrated both. They integrated, like yourself, integrated the mountains and a business career.
01:01:39
Speaker
and in most cases, family as well. And so i that's where i was that's why I was so interested in this group of people is the integration. And i think it's really getting to the question of, like, I had this extracurricular stimulus that nobody should have to go through, and I wouldn't wish on anyone, but yet for me, it was necessary.
01:02:03
Speaker
And is there a scenario in which, or would there be what would what would my model be? and I don't think I have a role model to make the turn.
01:02:16
Speaker
i don't think Chouinard or Royal Robbins or you had to make it in the same way that I did because I was one of the early people that was able to be a professional climber and Codrad's still professional climber. He's one generation ahead of me. you know And that was the path. That was the path that was open to me. And I just...
01:02:35
Speaker
I just personally, for me, didn't want to continue on that path. And it felt also very important for me at a certain point um to to really just cut the rope, you know, and and what I mean by cut the rope is like,
01:02:56
Speaker
you know, there's this idea in climbing that you can kind of fix ropes up the wall or up the face or whatever. You can go up and down the ropes as much as you want and you're always safe.
01:03:06
Speaker
And when I was, for a long time, I was running uphill athlete and I was professional climber and I sort of had these two things. And the bigger uphill athlete got, the harder it was to manage. Because I had a lot of free time, but I didn't have infinite free time. I still had obligations.
01:03:22
Speaker
And at a certain point, it was like, I need to remove the safety net of these salaries that I get every month and the funding my retirement plan gets every month.
01:03:36
Speaker
And commit because that's how climbing is, right? Like you have to, at some point you have to cut the rope or pull the ropes or whatever the analogy is and just fully commit to the path in order to be actually on it. And that only happened, that happened during COVID basically. That happened five years ago so. And that was, ah everyone...
01:03:59
Speaker
Again, like I looked at Chouinard because he always one thing about him is he always made big, took big swings and made big bets on things that at the time seemed like really bad ideas to everyone but him.
01:04:13
Speaker
And that felt like one of those to me. I was like, everybody hates this idea. My wife was completely against it. You know, everybody I talked to thought I was completely crazy. Why would you do that? And i was like, that's the reason this is a good idea.
01:04:27
Speaker
Everybody thinks it's a good idea. It feels right to me. i got to do it. And I think it was the best. I think it was. I think that uphill athlete wouldn't be what it is today if I hadn't done that. That's for sure. And I wouldn't be helping as many people. And that's really ultimately what I'm trying to do.
01:04:43
Speaker
Well, I'm grateful to you and Doug Pill Advocacy for the community and the work that you've done because it it creates space for for a group of people that otherwise don't have a real ah a real way to connect and voice and and a voice with each other.
01:04:58
Speaker
And I'm really grateful to you for this podcast series, which which I thoroughly have embraced, as you can tell, um because because i i hear the same themes that you know or or have run through my life and have run through yours and have run through a lot of other people's.
01:05:16
Speaker
yeah And and that we that we can then share with a generation that might pay attention to us, might not, but at least they hear those themes and can integrate them into their experience and don't have to don't have to feel isolated or outside of it because of the intensity that they feel about the the things that they do in their lives.
01:05:36
Speaker
It's about seeing the route or the path that nobody else sees and going through and blazing that trail, so to speak. and you know, and that's one of the things like I was just saying, I didn't have a role model to make that transition that I didn't feel like I did at least.
01:05:52
Speaker
And i would like to try to to create that. And actually one of the paths now is coaching. I think some of the coaches who are really adept, they make really good money and, you know, they can translate all the years of experience they have with running or climbing or whatever it is into answering questions about shoes and hydration and which running pack that people should use and all those things. Plus be able to, you know, help them with the training and the programming and when to have the rest day and when to push and when to hold back. And so that's that's super gratifying to be be able to do that.
01:06:27
Speaker
I think it's also really puts... really puts I go back to this and Jamie, you'll remember these first conversations about what is voice of the mountains. And it really started off just as a creative project. I had no idea what it was really going to become or, or do, but I just, I just, and it, and it really doesn't serve any business purpose per se. Like, I mean, i don't think this is a podcast that generates like leads for coaching. and I just think that that's, that's not really what this is about. ah
01:07:01
Speaker
And i had Mark Twight told me he thought it was like my most important work yet. Those were his words. I agree. I i agree. I was really surprised. I think it could have ultimately as much or more impact.
01:07:13
Speaker
If you keep it up, keep it going. Don't stop, Steve. keep Keep finding people. And I've got some suggestions for you and Jamie for next season, but keep it up. It's a good series.
01:07:24
Speaker
i'm now And
Closing and Newsletter Encouragement
01:07:25
Speaker
I'm going to model Greg Penner. and and and And end the conversation because I have i have my next appointment at exactly 1230. So I was on time.
01:07:36
Speaker
Right. But thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Jamie, for your excellent production help. and and and thank you for doing Thank you for doing all the heavy lifting today. you were ah you You might be the best interviewer on this podcast right now. on doing more got to be yeah I'm way more comfortable doing that than I was having having Steve House root around my early life in Atlanta growing up as a kid. That was pretty uncomfortable. so So I'm really glad to have this opportunity. Steve, I hope to see you and the boys this summer in Boulder. You're always welcome. Excellent.
01:08:09
Speaker
Well, thank you. right I'd love to come visit. Thanks so much, Kyle. All right. Thanks, guys.
01:08:27
Speaker
One of the most common questions i get is, how should I get started with training? Well, they say the first step is the hardest, so let's make that easy. We are offering three four-week samples of our most popular training plans for mountaineering, trail running, climbing, and more.
01:08:44
Speaker
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01:08:55
Speaker
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