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Episode 10: Lifelong learning part two
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In part two of our discussion of lifelong learning, Fiona Lennoxsmith speaks with Professor Ang Davies, the University of Manchester's academic lead for lifelong learning.
Ang describes how Manchester is rethinking its provision across three strands: civic and social responsibility, personal upskilling and employer-responsive programmes. Initiatives include a Bank of England-backed economics teaching project and industry co-designed micro-credentials in areas such as net zero and digital sustainability. She highlights key barriers – cost, confidence, inflexible funding, and fragmented digital infrastructure, and calls for greater credit transferability between institutions. AI-assisted personalised learning pathways and reform of the lifelong loan entitlement are identified as critical future priorities.
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Transcript
Introduction to Lifelong Learning Podcast with Fiona Lennox-Smith
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Talking Transformation. I'm Fiona Lennox-Smith, Head of Leadership at Advance HE. This is part two of our podcast on lifelong learning, people, places and practices.
00:00:27
Speaker
And I'm joined by Professor Ange Davies from University of Manchester. Ange is Professor of Clinical Bioinformatics and Healthcare Science Education at the University of Manchester,
00:00:40
Speaker
She's a National Teaching Fellow and most relevantly for today, she's Manchester's Academic Lead for Lifelong Learning. Ange leaves major work across the city of Manchester to rethink how lifelong learning is delivered, shaping the future strategy for the city.
00:00:59
Speaker
Ange, welcome. Great to be here. Thanks for the invite, Fiona. No, thanks. It's great to have you with us. and So let's start off with that people lens, if
Ange Davies' Career Journey: Pharma to Academia
00:01:09
Speaker
that's okay. um So can you tell me about your journey into the lifelong learning space?
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Thanks. and So i I guess I probably won't be the first person to say this, but I think I became an academic a little bit accidentally. So um after many years working in the pharmaceutical industry, I'd reached a point where I was looking for something a bit different.
00:01:32
Speaker
and began a ah training related role. so very much focused on capacity building in healthcare. So to train healthcare professionals, basically how to adopt genomic technologies that were very much being introduced in the healthcare system to support sequencing of the human genome.
00:01:52
Speaker
And I guess during that time, I became much more involved in curriculum development. And then for a period of time, I was actually working with the Department of Health, producing a curriculum to develop a new profession of clinical bioinformaticians working in the and NHS, which was which was a great journey to be part of.
00:02:10
Speaker
and And at that point, I transitioned to an academic role at the University of Manchester and became programme director for that same programme that we were commissioned to deliver. And that was back in 2014.
00:02:21
Speaker
But simultaneously, at the same time, I also became our faculty lead for ah continuing professional development. And there at that time, back then, I was really thinking about the systems, the processes for supporting CPD development and delivery. So for I guess for a long time, I've had really quite an interest in non-standard learning and how we support both our colleagues to deliver the learning, but also making it easier for learners to find the learning and also learn with us as a university.
Flexible Learning Strategy at Manchester
00:02:53
Speaker
So I guess over the last few years, sort of moving on from there, we've we've really undertaken quite a large scale strategic change programme at the University of Manchester, thinking about how we enable flexible learning um and really thinking about three key areas coming back to your people theme. um So flexible learning in terms of place, pace and pathway.
00:03:17
Speaker
and And really, I was responsible for leading, ah being the academic lead for leading the flexible pathways work stream, which naturally really led me into thinking about lifelong learning um and what it meant to be a lifelong learner in Manchester or indeed within the University of Manchester. Fantastic.
00:03:39
Speaker
And how do you think your learning and your thinking about lifelong learning has evolved across that journey? It's a really, I think i think that that thinking about learners is so is so interesting.
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah, so um I mean, I've been lucky to be able to spend a lot of time thinking about this over the last few years. But but we do know now through that journey, through that flexible learning programme experience, that learners very much want to access universities in a much more flexible way. And at Manchester, we certainly want to be a university that learners want to come back to or indeed come to that have never engaged in higher education but before. So we've got a long heritage of being a civic university, being one of the first civic universities in the yeah UK, which means I guess we take our responsibility to work with the city region really seriously. And whether that's research and innovation or teaching and learning all come under that kind of banner.
UNESCO City of Learning: What It Means for Manchester
00:04:36
Speaker
And indeed linked to that and in 2024, we were really pleased to join the city as a strategic partner when we were awarded a UNESCO city of learning status, which I guess illustrates both the city and also the university as a strategic partners commitment to that kind of bigger movement of lifelong learning and our collective endeavor, I guess, to support those communities and also our our region. So, i mean, I guess over the last couple of years,
00:05:04
Speaker
In that context, we've done a lot of research with both our alumni and also our strategic industry partners. And that's really helped us to understand the needs of lifelong learners and in particular what learners require to support both personal and
Curriculum Design for Time-Constrained Learners
00:05:18
Speaker
professional development. And and it's clear from listening to them that guess no one size fits all.
00:05:24
Speaker
but But time for learning is precious. It's limited and it needs to fit around really busy professional people often that are studying whilst working full time. very demanding jobs, juggling busy family and personal life. so So not too surprisingly, that research highlighted how little time people often have. So our alumni typically said they have between about five to 10 hours for CPD type activity per month. So so that's made us really think carefully about what our kind of ah non-standard provision and learning needs to look like. And maybe we can talk a bit more about this, but we've we've moved much more towards thinking about micro-credentials, shorter sort of chunks of learning.
00:06:05
Speaker
um And then I guess separate to that, so we we did a big piece with our strategic partners and and an alumni. We also ran a panel with our civic community. So we explored with them. it was around 50 members of our civic panel to understand what lifelong learning meant to them. And and that was really kind of interesting. so So they viewed it very much as a personal and practical activity, often linked for them with kind of work or career changed. But it was really interesting talking to them. We talked to people that had a university degree background and those that didn't. and across the board, cost was always a dominant barrier quite often for people, but particularly acute among the non-degree learners was was the confidence to engage with ah a university learning environment. and And so they talked a lot about actually the university needing to step away from its usual domain and go out into communities, go into coffee shops, community centers, and take the university to the to the community. And that's kind of an idea that's sort of resonated with me, I guess. So one of our visions is to kind of try to be a learning partner for life, really. So whether that's our alumni, strategic partners, or our community, that we've got something that kind of fits the bill across them all, really.
00:07:29
Speaker
That's amazing. I love that idea of being a learning partner um for life. um It so changes our whole view worldview about learners and students, doesn't it?
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. it's something that we came up with, you know, it's a bit of a tagline, really, guess, for when we were doing the work in the Flexible Learning Programme. But it's something that kind of resonates more strongly than just a tagline, I think, actually. yeah It sort of goes across that whole piece, really, for our community and through to all the people that we work with.
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's, and thank you so much. that that's There's so much really rich, interesting pieces here, and I think we'll probably be able to come back to them. It just strikes me as well, that very small amount of time those learners that you have or the alumni you have have in that space. So five to 10 hours per month feels a tiny amount to deliver. And again, it shifts our view, doesn't it, of what students are.
00:08:28
Speaker
It does indeed, yeah. Yeah. So if we if we kind of turn from that learning to the to the model you have at Manchester, can you tell us a bit about what lifelong learning at Manchester looks like?
Categories of Lifelong Learning at Manchester
00:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So I guess probably the easiest way to explain how we're beginning to think about it is really splitting it down into three main categories. So I guess the first is very much sort of the piece we've just touched on, which is lifelong learning that addresses a more social or civic responsibility. and Then there's kind of the piece which which is much more of a personal endeavor that maybe addresses an individual's particular knowledge or skills needs or need to upskill, et cetera.
00:09:12
Speaker
and And then there's a piece that's probably a bit more categorized if as sort of professional learning, really, which is supporting either an employer or employees for a particular upskilling or reskilling need that they have within their particular business. And and I guess um what we're beginning to do is build up a portfolio that sort of transcends all of those. So I don't know if it's helpful to talk about a few of the examples that we've got those great in those spaces.
00:09:40
Speaker
so So I guess to to pick off one of the ones that I suppose we're probably most proud of actually is in terms of that social civic responsibility is a programme we're working on in partnership with the Bank of England.
00:09:53
Speaker
ah The project's called Teach Economics and it's led by colleagues in Manchester Institute of Education. And it's a programme that's been really developed upskill teachers to be able to teach economics. and And we hope that by doing this, we're going to be able to help to address the diversity in students taking economics within schools and then also going on to study it within universities.
00:10:16
Speaker
um a big piece of research by ah colleagues in collaboration with Discovery Economics and the Bank of England showed that there's a huge gender disparity and also a socioeconomic disparity, particularly when you compare the north of England to London in and young people that are going in to study economics. um So that's something that we' we're particularly proud of. And we've basically focused on the northwest to start with. And then we're focusing on the north of England ah in our second year, and then we hope to offer it nationally going into our third year.
The Role of Micro-Credentials in Emerging Fields
00:10:51
Speaker
So I guess the second area we focus on is kind of much more these sort of shorter micro-credential courses. So thinking about things that can be offered direct to individual learners.
00:11:02
Speaker
And there's quite a lot of debate around micro-credentials and QAA have begun a big piece of work working with um the Welsh ah and special interest group around this. and And they've been thinking a lot about what micro-credentials look like. For us at Manchester, we've shaped them in being in the region of 50 hours of learning. And at the moment for us, they're non-credit bearing, but this is something we we may well be looking at in the future.
00:11:29
Speaker
and And one of the the benefits of, I guess, micro-credentials is that typically topics taught within that kind of ah format are developing so quickly that more formal degree structures just can't update quickly enough to be able to meet those needs.
00:11:45
Speaker
So, You know, things like cybersecurity, digital skills, sustainability, that kind of space. um So I guess, you know, so so for us, it's been a format that we've been able to explore through some of our pilots. So, for example, we've developed micro-credentials around net zero in fashion, and we've co-designed that with with Tesco. And we've also done a project around digital sustainability that we've partnered with with another industry partner with. and So in that, we're kind of making sure they're really kind of and industry relevant as well.
00:12:22
Speaker
um And then the third area is really kind of, I guess, sort of business to business or much more employer responsive programs. So how we think about co-designing and programs with industry partners. So for example, we've recently worked with a large global pharmaceutical company and to co-design a new program that upskills their teams and that can be from their R&D teams through to their marketing and commercial teams to make much better use of their data to improve decision making in the organisation, work more effectively, more efficiently and so we're really interested in those kind of partnerships and deep co-design and partnerships that really then if we get it right might feed into our research and innovation pipeline as well so go much beyond the teaching and learning space.
00:13:14
Speaker
Fabulous. um And when we're thinking about those those different types of programmes, is all of that that you're talking about online or is some of it blended or hybrid approaches?
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, so we've we've gone for sort of quite often online or or blended. and And the reason for that is obviously our reach is much bigger. One of our challenges at Manchester is we are a very busy and full campus, in and particularly in the city as well. So taking too many extra learners or students onto campus is is challenging. um And also by developing a more blended online model, it allows us to scale. So working out with our international centres, for example, and just think about where we've got skills needs, you know, there's certain other areas for sure globally that will have the same skills requirements. So and what we are thinking about is sort of this kind of
00:14:08
Speaker
almost like a bookend model. So sometimes maybe a particular partner might want something where you certainly get a group of learners in the room together at the start of a program. There's something then that flows quite asynchronously that fits around their pace and sort of self-directed mode of study.
00:14:25
Speaker
And then something that brings them together again at the end, I guess. So, you know, there's that opportunity for networking and growing kind of communities of practice and things like that. um So, yeah, so that's kind of,
00:14:37
Speaker
largely blended online but but sort of sometimes thinking about a little bit of a mix. Okay fantastic and those those different kinds of learners are you learning about the kind of pedagogies they best respond to?
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah I think I mean so it's early days for us in terms of these programs are still quite new and they we've what we have been doing is running probably pretty much each one of these new programs we've been co-designing with industry with pilot cohorts. and And that's the beauty, I guess, of working with a partner to co-design them is that we are getting lots of feedback. and And people do still like that opportunity to come together, that's for sure. um But equally, most people do like, you know, the opportunity to learn at a pace that works for them. you know, the usual things come up around, you know, clearer signposting or flexibility. and But we're also simultaneously exploring how to use, we've just moved to Canvas. We're using Canvas Catalog to deliver these kinds of courses. So we're we're exploring how to get the best
00:15:48
Speaker
of the virtual learning environment to support that kind of learner journey as well. Exciting. So it sounds like a lot of this is is still very emergent in the way that you're working.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, it is for sure. It is. Lovely. So if we if we think about and taking so sos taking a step back to that more strategic lens, how are you seeing lifelong learning impacting the university of Manchester's strategy and ambitions overall?
Manchester's 2035 Strategy: Impact on Teaching
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a great question and it's ah it's kind of a timely one for us really. So and so last year was an it was an intense and busy year. and We had a number of and leaps which were basically areas of focus where we were working on developing our new strategy. um And in the autumn of last year, we launched our new 2035 strategy.
00:16:45
Speaker
And I'm really sort of pleased and proud to say that a lot of that work we did in the flexible learning program fed into that. So we had lots, I wasn't the only work stream, lots of different work streams and all that great learning that came from that fed into that and So flexible and personalised learning is really central to that new strategy and our teaching and learning ambition.
00:17:06
Speaker
um So I guess for Rose and the area of work that I'm interested in, particularly around lifelong learning, we want to make sure we can kind of create new ways for people to learn with us or maybe return in life and from alumni to residents or global students, for example. but very much supported by our online digital campus and making sure we're developing where we need to employer responsive courses that really strengthen the skills for our region and also far beyond as we've already kind of discussed.
00:17:44
Speaker
and And what have been the challenges as you've gone through this and sort thinking through that um that future
Infrastructure Challenges in Lifelong Learning
00:17:53
Speaker
strategy? What what challenges have you have you had to overcome?
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, so, I mean, I think some of the the core challenges are thinking about things like... um our infrastructure. So we've mentioned we we had a great and timely transition to Canvas and that's been brilliant for us to be begin to design and deliver these kinds of programs for non-registered learners. But but we have a lot of workarounds in place. So systems, processes, et cetera, that are not necessarily fit for this kind of non-standard learner. So so really it's working on those
00:18:32
Speaker
additional integration so for example being able to take payment for those pieces of learning um you know having other things where we have curriculum content management systems for example where we could literally you know as long as we design well in the first place with that strong pedagogy it's how we then use curriculum content management systems to build new programs for the future in a much more flexible way and then also other things like ah customer relationship management systems. So, you know, at the moment, we're in a place where we don't have one that sits across the entire university. So that means tracking non-registered students or learners is is very difficult at the moment and also, you know, um sort of, quite well, quite challenging. So it's something that obviously we hope to be able to to develop in the next couple of years or it certainly is an area of priority. And then it's also what's our front door. What's our front door as a as a university to these kinds of learners? We've got lots of really great practice, lots of really great provision across the university, but we don't have it in one place.
00:19:45
Speaker
So how do we meet the learners easily and simply where they're at, where we can bring that content together? kind of in one place for them to be able to see. So we definitely need to look much more holistically at our digital estate and infrastructure to be able to support these kinds of learners.
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. And I think when I've talked to other places as well, that particularly for those non-standard learners, I think sometimes bringing them in, as you said at the beginning that you you kind of have to go out to them um in the city and to sort of and to sort of find them rather than relying on them finding you in the way that our regular students would.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yes, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then thinking about the workforce, um how are you developing the University of Manchester's
Upskilling Academic Staff for Lifelong Learning
00:20:45
Speaker
workforce? Because this is clearly very different as ways of working then we would be working with our regular undergrad and postgrad students. So how are you bringing those people on the journey with them and what sort of development do they need?
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a great question. I don't think we've got all the answers there yet, but we've identified there is definitely a training need because there's some colleagues who feel really comfortable with working with kind of certainly people in industry and sort of this upskilling kind of space, but there's others that maybe it just had no kind of interaction in that regard and much more used to undergraduate teaching. And so that there is a big upskilling piece within our own, certainly our own academic workforce.
00:21:32
Speaker
um And I think there's sort of a bit of a mindset change as well, really, in terms of promoting this kind of approach of flexibility by design. So focusing much more on the design of the blended learning that can be from the outset,
00:21:47
Speaker
envisaged to be repackaged, reused for lots of different audiences. So simple things like, you know, recording shorter chunks of video, when you're recording those, not referring to the specific unit title or names when recording videos of that particular unit, and thinking about accessibility, thinking about high how learners are going to digest that content in a much more shorter form format. So on a phone, on a, on the move, listening to a podcast, you know, or you know, much more thinking about it in a really kind of different way. And also there's sort of something about sort of a team teaching model. So with, with the team we work with, we have a fantastic education development team that consists of learning design, and you know, support with that learner interaction. And, and once, once people are on the courses,
00:22:43
Speaker
And it's learning to work together with that team as we're sort of co-designing a program when we're delivering it and what that sort of team approach then looks like as well.
00:22:55
Speaker
Fantastic. So sounds like it sounds like for some people that's going to be a really exciting um change. And for some people, they you have to work quite hard probably to shift that mindset to bring people along on that journey. are there any Is there anything you can you can share about how you might have done some of that?
00:23:17
Speaker
um I mean, I think it's also fair to say there's some people that might never want to go on that journey, I guess, too. i i think the way that we've approached it so far is is having, so we were very fortunate that we had some funding to take some pilots through where we could learn in a safe space how to work with industry,
00:23:42
Speaker
And also importantly, to give colleagues some money to actually almost, in some cases, buy out their time. So it it brought down the stakes a little bit. So it wasn't something they were trying to de sort of alongside the day job. It actually allowed them some focused time. so giving them time, giving them that support structure. So i also work really closely with a business engagement manager and then the business engagement team. And, you know,
00:24:10
Speaker
that sort of more holistic support around them and that connection across business engagement, ah suppose gives more confidence when they're then having, we're having conversations with senior colleagues in industry and so on. So I think having a space to conduct pilots and, you know, not all of them have been as successful as others. You know, it's also having a safe space to learn when to fail. So if all of these things have to succeed immediately, that's putting, you know,
00:24:39
Speaker
And we even know, don't we, in our normal sort of standard provision, there are programmes which we have to sadly close or, you know, so it's having that sort of approach where it's sort of it's a safe space to to try ideas, innovate and sometimes fail to a degree.
00:24:57
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's I think that's a way that universities are having to evolve globally. a lot at the moment in all sorts of different areas. So there are two things I heard there. One is that, as you said, that psychological safety to fail and hopefully fail in a way that isn't isn't doesn't feel catastrophic. And the other one being around scaffolding so that people feel that they're really supported in taking those sort of slightly riskier moves than they they might do normally. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
00:25:33
Speaker
Great. So just thinking ahead to lifelong learning for the future. So when we're thinking about lifelong learning for the current for the coming decades, what do you think it might what do you think that might look like? What do you think might be different for how it is now? What progress do we need to make?
00:25:56
Speaker
Mm hmm.
Future Needs: Skills Levy and Credit Transfer Reform
00:25:57
Speaker
So, I mean, I guess we've not really talked about the lifelong loan entitlement and that kind of space. And obviously something we're keeping quite an eye on is obviously the skills and growth levy and what that looks like.
00:26:09
Speaker
So my personal kind of feeling is ah really a hope that we have a much more flexible skills and growth levy that employers can use to train their workforce. and You know, obviously there's been really big changes to the apprenticeship levy and so on, but I think in reality it's,
00:26:26
Speaker
You know, the hurdles are just too great often for employees to engage with that. They need to take somebody on their baseline. Having something more that's more flexible that they can dip in to upskill and reskill employees it is much more workable.
00:26:41
Speaker
So I think they need to be able to have access to funds in a much more flexible way to address these critical skills needs where we know when we look at the industrial strategy, you know, digital skills, cyber skills, sustainability skills, all really critical.
00:26:56
Speaker
um and and need to be able to be dealt with, you know, much sooner rather than later. um And then there's the piece around, you know, thinking about obviously leaning into the lifelong loan entitlement.
00:27:11
Speaker
We also need to work much harder as a sector towards a system where credits really can be transferred flexibly between organisations. And I and and use that in the broader sense, you know, obviously at the moment we're very much focused on probably university conversation but it's like where does that barrier sit or or um you know where' where's that gray area between us and further education for example so we need to be able to put much smaller units of learning more easily really um and then you know something that I feel really needs thinking about is further and future reform of the lifelong loan entitlement so can we bring level seven provision into scope? If you look at things like the industrial strategy um and priority skills needs, they don't necessarily sit naturally in our undergraduate provision. So quite a lot of those, you think about cybersecurity, for example, might sit more in sort of level seven provision. And so um it's really, how can we maybe look at bringing that into scope for the future? And also allowing learners to to take much smaller units of learning. At the moment, the smallest unit um is still really around 300 hours now based on our earlier conversations and what we've heard. That is a large amount of learning for anyone to take that's already got a job and working full time and not really very compatible to working professionals. And so I think, yeah, there's there's quite a lot in that sort of space, really, that policy space.
00:28:51
Speaker
Great. anything Anything you can see coming up from a technological point of view with AI um and digital?
AI's Potential in Personalizing Learning Paths
00:29:00
Speaker
AI and digital. um yeah I mean, we've not really done it yet. I mean, we've got an opportunity, obviously, looking now that we have Canvas, looking more at learning analytics and so on, using AI to be able to signpost, personalise learning paths and so on.
00:29:20
Speaker
you know, having suites of micro-credentials, suites of smaller chunks of learning that somebody can use AI to help them to navigate through, i think is a real opportunity.
00:29:31
Speaker
um People will be starting to do it. I don't think we've started to, you know, really explore that at Manchester, but I think, you know, and also people are using AI to curate their own learning paths and experience learning journeys as well now. And I think that's something as a sector we need to move much more quickly on yeah that's a really interesting one I haven't thought about that people using AI to curate their own pathways where I'm assuming they're deciding which institution to go to and what to what to study in a way that fits their their own needs yeah I think I mean it could be between institutions it might even just be within an institution if you know if courses and ah
00:30:14
Speaker
digital infrastructure was connected enough to be able to navigate through that but obviously to do that you've got to have things listed tagged with you know certain um learning outcomes and and um so on so we've we've got a bit of a way in most most universities i would suggest to to get to that point yeah yeah i think we're still very much on the journey aren't we um So just finally, what questions do you think we should be asking ourselves now as a sector to bring some of these changes into being?
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I had a project some years ago and we were hoping to try and um do a kind of partnership model with the University of Glasgow around micro-credentials, but we couldn't actually get it to work in terms of transferring credits you know, and how that would look like. And I think one of the main questions for me that we need to address is a much more flexible transfer of credits between organisations and even globally. So we're yeah part of a project ah with the ah the European Continuing Education Network, and the acronym's MESH, and but it's very much about looking at
00:31:36
Speaker
micro-credential credit exchange between ah you know and you know universities certainly kind of within Europe and so even even within the University of Manchester the amount of um accredited prior learning that we allow into our programs varies considerably between subject area and sometimes quite considerably between faculty so you know I'd suggest maybe a way forward rather than trying to start big is beginning small with agreements between you know partner institutions for example and feels like a good place to start where they'll you know nominally accept these ah credits from each other and so on and just we've got to move much more in that direction to be able to get this level of personalised, flexible and lifelong learning that I think the the learner and the market is demanding from us as universities.
00:32:37
Speaker
Fantastic. And I've learnt loads from this conversation um and I'm sure other people will as well. Thank you very much and for your time on this today. and I've really enjoyed it. um And if you're listening...
00:32:55
Speaker
and We'd love to hear from you as well and to get your thoughts on this. and So please do feel free to comment and subscribe to future podcasts that we have to.
00:33:08
Speaker
Thanks Fiona, it's been a pleasure.