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Episode 9: Lifelong learning
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Singapore University of Social Sciences (SUSS) Dean of Students Lay Yeo speaks to Advance HE's Fiona Lennoxsmith about lifelong learning in higher education.
SUSS serves students aged 18 to 80, with 80% enrolled as working adults. Its model combines flexible, modular study, evening and weekend timetabling, hybrid learning, micro-credentials and stackable qualifications. The university also supports mid-career entrepreneurship, including a dedicated programme for over-50s, and partners closely with employers to deliver tailored upskilling courses subsidised through Singapore's SkillsFuture funding.
Lay suggests that universities should stop merely reacting to industry demands and instead anticipate workforce needs, working alongside employers and governments to lead the conversation.
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Transcript
Introduction to Lifelong Learning
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to Talking Transformation. I'm Fiona Lennox-Smith, Head of Leadership at Advance HE. This is part of a two-part podcast exploring people, place and practices in lifelong learning.
00:00:27
Speaker
And today I'm joined by Lei Yeo, Dean of Students at Singapore University of Social Sciences. Lei is a highly respected educator and senior leader and a recognised champion of experiential values-based education.
Innovative Educational Approaches at SUSS
00:00:42
Speaker
highlighted through her leadership at the SUSS Student Success Centre. The centre designs authentic industry-ready programmes in career development, entrepreneurship and student life.
00:00:55
Speaker
Lay's work sits at the heart of lifelong learning, supporting diverse learners shaping applied and flexible learning ecosystems and nurturing the conditions for learning. And for those who aren't familiar with SUSS,
00:01:09
Speaker
It's a Singaporean institution that's deeply connected to adult learners and continuing education. Leigh, welcome. It's really lovely to see you today. Thank you so much, Fiona, and lovely to see you too.
00:01:23
Speaker
Great. and So let's begin with the people lens because lifelong learning at its core, I think, is always personal as well as structural. So can you tell me a little bit about your journey into that lifelong learning space?
Lei's Educational Journey and SUSS's Diverse Student Base
00:01:40
Speaker
So I've always been an educator, so I've been an educator for almost 20 years. um I've started at the pre-tertiary sector for kind of 15 years of my career.
00:01:54
Speaker
And so I've stepped into tertiary higher education only about nine years ago. and I've always been in the space of student development.
00:02:05
Speaker
So when i have when I come into the higher ed space, it is also in student development that I'm working in. So that that started with this lifelong learning, mainly because of the institution that I'm in. So earlier, as you have alluded to, um Singapore University of Social Sciences, also known as SUSS,
00:02:29
Speaker
ah We are an institution, a very unique university, um even though a public one, ah which is being basically funded by public fundings.
00:02:40
Speaker
ah But we are autonomous university at the same time. And we support a very diverse group of students from 18 to 80 years old ah Because we are university whereby um working adults actually come to take their undergraduate degree with us. So majority of our students, about 80% of them, actually do the undergraduate degree with us. So that's about 14,000 students.
00:03:08
Speaker
And we have about 4,000 full-time students, usually in the age range of 18 to 25 years old. to twenty five years old But like I say, we have then a majority of them from usually 25 to 80 years old.
00:03:25
Speaker
And um the average age of our learners is about 35 years old. So that's a very unique kind of student profile. Especially in Singapore, we are probably one of the only kind of a public university that serves basically lifelong learners.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. And how has your thinking and learning about lifelong learning evolved over the time that you've spent working with that really diverse range of learners?
Flexible Learning Structures and Opportunities at SUSS
00:04:03
Speaker
I think first I'll talk about structurally how do we support basically our lifelong learners. I think in the university, how we structure lifelong learning, I think it is definitely the kind of flexible modules.
00:04:16
Speaker
o um that is That has been all the way for the last 15 to 20 years, how the university has been set up. So in terms of a very modular type of approach, that's one.
00:04:31
Speaker
Two, for working adults to be able to continue learning, ah essentially the curriculum time needs to be in the evening. as well as during weekends. So that's another very distinct feature.
00:04:47
Speaker
yeah The third very distinct feature to support lifelong learners, especially after COVID, it would be the e-learning. So the hybrid learning.
00:04:59
Speaker
So the hybrid learning becomes a very strong feature, especially after COVID. And it continues till today. And I think that supports um lifelong learning very much.
00:05:11
Speaker
So that's in terms of pedagogical curriculum design and all that, right? So that's one. the ah the The other feature is micro-learning. So micro-credential, micro-learning.
00:05:24
Speaker
So that's another feature that we we do see as a very strong one. And last but not least is stackable credentials. So stackable credentials ranging from you know from a certificate to a diploma or postgraduate diploma in our case.
00:05:40
Speaker
before going to a master's. So I think these these all these different features, i think, support lifelong learning ah currently in our university structure.
00:05:52
Speaker
Now in the area of work, and if i if I go down to the area of work that I'm in at the centre, as you have introduced earlier in terms of career development, support and guidance, as well as a startup entrepreneurship, as well as student life.
00:06:08
Speaker
I think in these three sectors, typically at the typical university, you see that at the undergraduate level. So that is very well developed at the undergraduate level.
00:06:19
Speaker
But what about at the mid-career level? Do they still apply? Yes, very much so. ah But they look very different, right? So for example, in terms of career guidance and advisory, then we're looking at how to provide career career guidance advisory for pivoting career.
00:06:38
Speaker
hu And this is the kind of advice that we we speak to students. And we also look at, for example, if they are already currently working at their workplace, how then are they able how they can we support them in what we call work learning opportunity?
00:06:56
Speaker
So leveraging on their current workplace, how can we actually expand their work scope who such that they incorporate the learning of what they learn at the university into their work and at the same time be able to gain credits out of it.
00:07:15
Speaker
So that is the second piece that we we explore. So we have a work study a program that is 30 credit units. And that could help actually our part-time learners who are basically working adults. track How can they learn credits and work at the same time?
00:07:32
Speaker
So that really helps. And this is a model that you usually will not see in the typical university. And i then I look into the startup space. So at the startup space, it's obviously, I don't know about other universities, we are quite porous.
00:07:49
Speaker
So we take in continuing education learners into our startup program. So they can range in a variety of age, right? um and they will incubate their business with us. So in the last one and a half years, we even ran a program for age 50 and above.
00:08:09
Speaker
We call it the kind of like a silver entrepreneurship track. And we purposefully actually recruit people who are 50 years old and above, and they would like to explore business ideas with us.
00:08:24
Speaker
So we have a one-week intensive program that basically allows them to look at business idea in terms of validation first.
00:08:36
Speaker
And then after the one week program, if they are really keen to explore their business idea further, they can then apply to our three months venture builder program.
00:08:47
Speaker
And from there, they can then pitch for seed funding of 25,000 Singapore dollars. and continue their business idea and journey with us. And then they can also go further into incubation.
00:09:04
Speaker
so So when we look at the startup journey, you know, in the typical university, usually they incubate undergraduate students or it could be postgraduate students, but typically quite young, right, in their 20s.
00:09:17
Speaker
But when at the at our current university, we're looking at the entire life journey. You can be in your fifty s And if you're keen doing a business, we we have that kind of support structure and system to to look into um kind of a silver entrepreneurship.
Transition to a Public University and Funding Models
00:09:35
Speaker
That sounds amazing. there's There's so much in what you've just said um about how you accommodate those kind of, what we would see normally as non-traditional learners, but it feels like at SUSS, those are your kind of core learners. So you you're adapting you're doing um in student services really to cater for a very different type of students and a different type of student needs?
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, so so this is exactly what we are trying to do. I mean, we're not at the destination yet. I think this is an evolving model because I think previously, ah before, i mean, SUSS used to be a private institution.
00:10:22
Speaker
So I think when we became autonomous university, under the Ministry of Education, we have also morphed our model and the way we conduct adult learning education.
00:10:36
Speaker
So I think um aside from looking at our main bulk of students who are pursuing either undergraduate a degree with us or masters or even PhD as adult learners,
00:10:50
Speaker
This group of students are quite significant and obviously we want to look into various teaching pedagogies as well as learning support structures that can support adult learners at our university.
00:11:03
Speaker
The second big ah large group of students that we support are the continuing education learners, which means that they are not necessarily pursuing a long-term degree with us, but they are taking short courses.
00:11:19
Speaker
So this is another very, I would say, ah a large group of students that we are interacting with. So they come from the industry, they are working full time, but at the same time, they're taking short courses ah with us, either in short term certificates, and they are trying to upskill, right? And which they are able to apply back into their workplace quite immediately.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, so that that would be the second group of learners that we have. And for this second group, we have about 20,000 students who basically take short-term courses with us.
00:12:01
Speaker
And so it sounds like with that second group of students, are you working very closely with employers then to design courses that um they want? Can you tell us a little bit about the kind of partnerships that you might have there?
00:12:16
Speaker
Yeah, so yes. So for this second group of continuing education students, we work very, very closely with employers, with industry partners. So essentially, we are trying to customize and trying to tailor to the needs of the employers, to the companies. so these kind of workshops are very, very tailored.
00:12:38
Speaker
um I do not know how, for example, in the UK universities, or how they are able um to customise or tailor programmes for industry.
00:12:50
Speaker
But I guess in Singapore, what really helped, I think at the national level, is the funding that has been provided by the government. So we have the SkillsFuture funding.
00:13:02
Speaker
And that really encouraged both the learners as well as the employers to be tapping on these the funding that's provided by the government.
00:13:14
Speaker
to continuously provide opportunities to for um the employees, staff, as well as lifelong learners to be able to upskill yeah continuously.
00:13:27
Speaker
So I think um especially now with this two, three years, there have been really radical changes right in the market. And of course, AI is the biggest hot topic. right AI and sustainability.
00:13:42
Speaker
I think this too has always been, I think over the last three to five years is something that i think a lot of companies have been trying to transform.
00:13:53
Speaker
So I think these kind of skill sets and as well as the company needs that has driven quite a lot of um different types of courses that we designed in particular to beat industry needs.
00:14:07
Speaker
so So this is how we actually partner employers. So that there's different kinds of model and also different types of partnerships. Some of it, the companies will be looking for us in terms of it could be consultation then together with a training a model.
00:14:24
Speaker
So that is quite popular as well. Or it could be purely a kind of training model so that the staff is able to upscale and then be able ability to apply at their workplace, as I've mentioned earlier.
00:14:39
Speaker
And those, the funding that you mentioned there, I think in terms of the UK, it's an evolving model at the moment. And I think universities are really looking to to learn. And one one of the good reasons to be talking to you in Singapore, Leigh, is that um is is to help people sort of see examples from around the world of other things and that they might do and other case studies. And I just wondered in terms the funding, am I right in thinking that fund goes funding goes directly to the learners or is there also incentives for employers? I believe that there are two ways.
00:15:23
Speaker
So one of it is that, so essentially when the when the learner enrolls in approved skills future funded course, i The tuition fees or the cost fee, what happens is that maybe they only pay 10% of the the entire cost fee and some are 20%.
00:15:42
Speaker
So depending on certain criteria they they need to meet. And the one thing good about in terms of this government funding, in fact, the older you are, the more funding that you get. Typically at age 40 and above, ah you actually get more more subsidy. Because I think the understanding or the... the The challenge that the government understands is that you know when you get to a certain age, perhaps your impetus of actually trying to get yourself upskill gets ah bigger and the barrier gets larger. right
00:16:15
Speaker
So that's why there's more subsidy being given. So what happens is that in this case, ah um whatever institution or course that you get enrolled in, the institution is responsible for getting that subsidy to be claimed from the government.
00:16:31
Speaker
So that is one model. The second model is that we as citizens of Singapore, of singapore we get a certain um kind of funding direct to our account, kind of like our account that we can actually use and spend when we enroll in certain courses.
00:16:54
Speaker
So that's the second model. So that money is actually passed direct to the to the citizen And he or she gets to choose what cost of the approved ones to spend directly from the from the money that's given. So that's the second model. The third model, as you have shared, is the incentive given to the government.
00:17:19
Speaker
So there will be certain incentives. So for example, of AI-driven upskills. So let's say that as the company who who wants upskill your ah your staff, so you might get certain incentive from different ministries of Singapore who can who actually goes direct funding into that particular sector. So they are very selected sector. It doesn't mean that you get funding for all kinds of upskilling.
00:17:49
Speaker
So it basically meets the kind of industry needs that the government projects as well as what the market might do demand. So that's the type of funding that's available. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. that's I think that's really helpful just to kind of think about, you know, the differences there between our systems um and how and i'm thinking about where SUSS then fits into that Singaporean model where I think lifelong learning is ah is a major national priority, isn't it?
00:18:24
Speaker
Yes, that is correct. So I guess, ah especially in in the case of SUSS, the national priority of lifelong learning, we we fit in very well for this piece.
00:18:34
Speaker
In particular, in the first place, we already attract and a lot of adult learners into our more traditional undergraduate and as well as master's program.
00:18:47
Speaker
When we run our master's program from day one, it has been catered for working adults. So especially majority of our programs, they're all run on part-time basis for masters level.
00:19:01
Speaker
So they are either run on a weekday evening or weekends. So they are already structured in this way. So that that's that's the that's the first piece. Then of course, and in terms of continuing education, we are kind of positioned right to provide a lot of this kind of short-term upscaling courses and modules. And I think um the third thing that was that goes for us is that we do have an independent subsidiary known as the Institute of Adult Learning.
00:19:29
Speaker
So this is a national level agency that is actually works with us hand in hand. we are We're kind of like a same reporting structure to our president of the university.
00:19:41
Speaker
So the Institute of Adult Learning really looks into a lot of learning adult pedagogy And they do a lot of national level initiatives on train the trainer program.
00:19:53
Speaker
ah That means train the adult trainer so that the adult trainers actually will be able to train other adults. So and that's that's at the national level kind of scheme.
00:20:04
Speaker
so So that really makes us as a university very well positioned um to look into lifelong learning. So this is a major piece for us. Fantastic.
00:20:16
Speaker
If you think about what might be next for lifelong learning, are there exciting plans coming up as, um I don't know, maybe because of the rise of AI or maybe just because we're learning so much more about that kind of new type of learner?
AI's Impact on Education and Employment
00:20:33
Speaker
um What do you think is going to be coming up next? Yeah, I think this is it is a million dollar question and i I cannot claim that I'll be able to answer that. you know It's almost like a crystal gazing, right? Because in particular, I think um the employment market, I think this is the biggest, I think, disruption that's happening right now, which is the AI disruption.
00:20:58
Speaker
And I think um with all the different conversations that's happening, this is the part which is, I see um even universities, if we talk about at the traditional kind of degree level first, we're already having a lot of conversations about it.
00:21:19
Speaker
And to be, and there's a lot of opinions that have been already been written, right? So I don't have to rehash that, but but I think in short, to be honest,
00:21:31
Speaker
I don't think anyone has a clear direction as to where we should be going at the university level first. Everyone is trying to to kind of like experiment, pilot, and try to make changes to the traditional degree.
00:21:47
Speaker
but i would foresee and But at the same time, I would foresee that with the with a major disruption in in employment market, this continuous learning and lifelong learning piece is going to be even more important and more foregrounded, right? Because what happens is that whatever that you learn in the traditional system, what we are foreseeing is that our typical undergraduate is by the time they graduate, the the knowledge is obsolete.
00:22:24
Speaker
So that is the biggest challenge, right? So if this knowledge is going to be obsolete or the skill set is potentially obsolete, then that makes continuous learning and lifelong learning going to be much, much more important.
00:22:39
Speaker
So the question here is that are we going to then go into a potential system that maybe we don't look at three and four years degree? Maybe that system...
00:22:52
Speaker
I'm not sure, I'm not trying to kind of like revolutionize, but this is something that we might have to think about. boom Maybe this three to four year continuous learning within the education setting setting is not going to work very well again, you know, in the future.
00:23:09
Speaker
We are already currently in the undergraduate system, already incorporating a lot of work learning opportunities. So we are looking at six months kind of internship, 12 months work study.
00:23:24
Speaker
This is already existing in our current undergraduate degree system. And for part-time learners who who taking their undergraduate with us, they are already working and learning at this level.
00:23:37
Speaker
So I think what we I probably foresee, as I've mentioned, is that continuous learning, lifelong learning is going to be really important. which means we foresee our workforce, our employees, even the bosses, the CEOs, they're going to come in and out of the learning system much more frequently.
00:23:59
Speaker
And i think I think the advantage or the unique proposition that the universities can bring is likely to work much more closely with the industry, that's one, in terms of designing this kind of short-term learning, short-term courses and application,
00:24:17
Speaker
so that whatever that this the the the working adults need, they can cross into the learning institution very seamlessly and then go out back to their workplace to actually apply or to pivot into another career.
00:24:35
Speaker
So I think this is going to be really important moving in the next three to five years. That's the first.
Anticipating Future Industry Needs with Education Partnerships
00:24:42
Speaker
I think secondly is that the current conversation, what happens is that I find that the current conversation at the tertiary level is also like, ah how can we meet industry needs?
00:24:53
Speaker
So I think rather than to think about how we can meet industry needs, I think it's important for the university to also take the leadership as to how can we articulate, you know, we fussy we should be training um employees or our students in in general um to look in advance what are the needs that the industry will need in three to five years time and how can we prepare our workforce in such a way and not the one lagging behind, right?
00:25:27
Speaker
So I don't know, I mean, in the UK conversations, but I find that sometimes in in our current conversations, we keep talking about meeting industrial needs, but how about rather than meeting industry needs, how can we be the one leading industry needs? So we we actually foresee, we should already have the kind of foresight and planning to say, this is that what the industry will need in three to five years time, and let's prepare our graduates.
00:25:54
Speaker
Let's prepare our students and let's prepare the workforce, right, to be ready in three to five years. and we be the leaders and leading the conversation together.
00:26:06
Speaker
And of course, in partnership with the industry. right but sounds That sounds super exciting. So we're we're not talking about the employers there as the as the kind of customer of the university.
00:26:18
Speaker
We're really talking about that partnership where we're trying to anticipate we're trying to anticipate needs um um And really, I think that that sounds like we're really partnering then with industry to understand where they think they're going and for us to then use our more blue sky type research and thinking to be able to then say, you think you're going here? We think maybe there's there's some added...
00:26:47
Speaker
um There's some added pieces here, so let's anticipate that future together, which sounds a really exciting um proposition actually for universities, much more so than delivering to the now.
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah, so really, as what you have summarised very, very succinctly, I think that's really the way to go, right, is to partner the employers. They should not be seen as the clients.
00:27:14
Speaker
We should not see our students as clients as well. But that's another topic. That's another topic completely different from lifelong learning. But but I think, yeah, it's to work in in a much more... Because now, what I'm seeing now is that the employers seem to be leading the the conversation, right? As in the industry.
00:27:34
Speaker
I mean, look at the tech industry. They introduced AI and and is a huge destructor. And it seems to me that we are lagging behind, right?
00:27:47
Speaker
Like we are reacting. We are reacting to this change rather than walking alongside with you with this change or even leading with this change or working. account Yeah, we're we're not in that relationship.
00:28:02
Speaker
this is This is something to me quite disturbing. ah as as ah as As a higher education institution, we should be either in conversation, we should be planning together, we should be leading conversation. As you said, our faculty members should have the expertise as well as the domain expertise to be saying that, hey, you know, look here, this is something that we think that you can even go further.
00:28:26
Speaker
And we are working hand in hand to look into labor market needs and things like that. So I think that that would be really, I thought, if if you ask me about the strategy and the future ambition for for universities at large,
00:28:40
Speaker
This is something that I thought we could work together. And of course, together with the government, but it's always a tripartite, right? Together with the government funding, ah with the industry, and of course, business associations of different types of businesses, and together with IHLs, ah higher learning institutions, I think this is where I hope that would be the one going in terms of future direction, rather than a kind of reaction, reacting and lagging behind kind of conversation.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah, that that to me sounds really exciting and inspiring and I'm sure lots of universities would really like like to go there. Is there anything you think we could be doing now to help that change along?
00:29:29
Speaker
ah I guess ah I think the first is probably dialogue and conversations. I think that that has always been important. um And rather than, because i think that a lot of anxiety right now, like I say, going back again to disruption.
00:29:46
Speaker
And obviously IHLs has a very important role aside from leading in innovation and research. I think IHLs, I do see high learning institutions that have a very important role in basically um in the labor market and then the labor demand, right? I think this has always been one area of, uh,
00:30:10
Speaker
a domain in which institutions ah like universities should play a key role. but But I do not know in terms of conversations with industries and the gap, can we, um to close this gap, because I've heard a lot of conversations with industry partners and the gis the the common rhetoric right now is, all the universities do not produce graduates or students that meet our needs.
00:30:37
Speaker
I think this is the biggest issue, right? has been ongoing for quite some time. So if we are not producing graduates that meet your need, then the question here is what is missing in this equation?
00:30:51
Speaker
What can we do as higher learning and not just meet your needs, but also anticipate what is coming up. So that's what I'm saying earlier. But at the same time, for the industries, so both parties, we need to come together and perhaps facilitated by associations, unions, government, who are looking into um labor employment and competitiveness, right? I think this these cant conversations need to take place. And Today, i i am seeing these conversations taking place in the Singapore context.
00:31:26
Speaker
I think our Ministry of Education is is in in a way very much aware that these conversations need to take place. So ah we have this reorganisation that is taking place right now at our two very important ministries, which is Skills Future. Just now mentioned about Skills Future funding.
00:31:48
Speaker
and Workforce Singapore, they are integrating together because Skills to Future funding actually looks into funding in the education space. So it's a kind of like funding from um how do we upskill people?
00:32:03
Speaker
And usually the funding goes into different types of education institution. So I think this merger that is going to, is taking place right now, I think you will help to close the gap between industry and education institution at the policy level.
00:32:19
Speaker
So I think if we can get this piece right, and then plus higher education institutions taking very active our steps and conversations with the industry and vice versa, I think that would be the first step that we could do now immediately, right?
00:32:36
Speaker
And obviously, we need to look at our own curriculum changes and our own curriculum space. How could we change our curriculum space to allow our students to move more and kind of...
00:32:49
Speaker
be able to move from the institution and into the workplace much more smoothly. I think this if if we can overcome this barrier, I think that that would be definitely a first step forward.
00:33:03
Speaker
Fantastic. um Leigh, this has been such a fascinating conversation. I feel we've covered loads and loads of ground um from talking about some student experience through to that entrepreneurship part um and then through to the employers. So thank you so much for your time with us um today. It's been a really great conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
00:33:30
Speaker
Thank you very much, Fiona, and really great to have this conversation with the Advanced HES team.