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Bonus Episode: Top 5 RPG Antagonists
73 Plays1 year ago
After giving their thoughts on top RPG protagonists, Poly & Kj give their thoughts on top RPG antagonists! Come see if any are from the same game!
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Transcript
Introduction: Bonus Episode on Top 5 Antagonists
00:00:00
Speaker
So, OK, we are live. OK, so welcome, everybody, to another I guess we're calling them bonus episodes, bonus episode of turn based tangents. This one's going to be a little interesting because I think it kind of goes back to the.
00:00:21
Speaker
last
Spoiler Alert for Antagonist Discussion
00:00:22
Speaker
episode that we did, so we did the our top five protagonists last time. So now we're going to do our top five, Jeremy G. Antagonist. So, yeah, this is going to boy. I think I might. I feel bad. I'm going to give warning. This is going to probably spoil some games.
00:00:46
Speaker
Cause it's like, it's really hard to, it's really hard to pick antagonist and say the reason why you like an antagonist without spoiling the game. Because a protagonist, you could just like base off of like, you know, a couple hours of the, because that's your protagonist. You get the brain at the start, but antagonist is generally like bad guys and they have like a progression into why they're picked. You can't just be like, Oh, that bad guy.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. A little bit more spoilery. So we'll definitely say the name of the game very clearly before we get into it. So just in case anybody needs to skip ahead. Yeah, that's a good call. That's actually a really good call. I didn't think about that. Yeah, no, we're definitely going to make sure that we call that out. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?
Back in the Lab: Casual Vibes
00:01:35
Speaker
Uh, yeah, I could do it first. I don't remember who went first last time. I don't either. So it's, it's been a little while. So yeah, I'm excited to be recording in the lab again.
00:01:46
Speaker
We need the lab command, exclamation point lab. Oh my goodness, no. Yeah, OK. So my
Galleon: From Hero to Villain
00:01:55
Speaker
number five is from, so I'm going to say the name of the game, just in case you guys need to skip ahead to when KJ's talking about his number five. But my number five is from Lunar Silver Star Story Complete.
00:02:09
Speaker
Um, and it is, uh, so I'm gonna make sure I say it because if I say the name, it spoils some things just saying the name. So, Lunar's Circle Star Story Complete. Skip this segment if you don't want spoilers. Okay, there we go. I think I did enough. Uh, is Galleon from, from Lunar.
00:02:28
Speaker
So galleon for me was especially because I played lunar silver star story as a kid So I played it when I first pretty well first came out. It was a gift to me from my uncle and I remember just being like like okay, so you the whole thing with lunar is that they set they set him up as like a
00:02:54
Speaker
like this good guy right so he's a good guy he was original of the four heroes and yeah yeah so you like you're like okay and he's kind of put on a like a pedestal a little bit and generally in my jrpg experience that usually means they're gonna they're gonna fall from some pedestal if they're not a character made character in the party
00:03:13
Speaker
But I loved the whole... I liked a lot of what is revealed throughout the game. So he was one of the original four heroes.
00:03:28
Speaker
really nice, cheerful guy kind of thing. And, and, but then after his, his fellow hero's death, he kind of, he kind of, he changes. So it's like, it's very much a very classic of like, death changes a man kind of idea. But also then it's like revealed that his friend didn't
00:03:48
Speaker
die and they kind of like tricked him and so there's a little bit of betrayal in there a little bit and like there's a lot of reasons why you know the goddess and everything did this and and stuff but he felt it personally like he was and that you know the goddess and the dragon stuff stuff like that shouldn't be fit to rule anymore and then he goes fucking crazy and it's like
Complexity of Galleon's Villainy
00:04:09
Speaker
I'm gonna be the one who rules I could do this better
00:04:14
Speaker
But he's such a built-up villain that he's loved, he's betrayed, he's tricked, he's pushed to the edge. He ends up being a horrifying puppeteer mastermind by the end of the game to gain power and control the world. But his ability to lie and deceive everybody
00:04:40
Speaker
Like I get that he kind of was deceived himself, but like it definitely felt more like he always had that inside him. So it's kind of that classic, like a good person can turn evil depending on the circumstances, but also there was still bad in him because he's like really good at like puppeteering and like painting people against each other and like.
00:05:03
Speaker
just being really crafty and you don't even realize he's the like the main bad guy until partway through I mean there's there's hints that you can decipher in the beginning but like so it's just kind of one of those things where you're like okay and I like the way they did picked him more in Silver Star Story Complete than what they do in the remake because
00:05:25
Speaker
Oh, I've never played the remakes. I don't even know. Yeah, I don't recommend it at all. I know you love this game. So I'm like, fantastic. Don't touch the remake because they put your galleon. So they basically take out all the stuff about how like, you know, he was a good guy and stuff like that. They made him kind of petty from the start.
00:05:46
Speaker
Oh, and very kind of defiant and not agreeing with anything from the weird. Yeah. So like, so even though he's painted as one of the heroes, when you hear about what the way he is in the past, you're just like, how is he a fucking hero? I wonder if that is the case with the I wonder if it's the case with the original as well. Like, I don't know. I've never played. I've only recently seen the Sega Sega CD version in
00:06:16
Speaker
stores but like i'm wondering in a retro store but i'm wondering if they kind of do a similar thing so i know i was hoping you would ask that question because i was like okay you're gonna you're doing everything i dived into it and i found out the silver star story complete version of a galleon is the true galleon
00:06:35
Speaker
Okay, so the way they paint him in that game is also the way they put him in the novels as well as from the original Sega Saturn sort of thing like they they added some like quality of life things and stuff like that for silver star story complete but it is more the true
00:06:52
Speaker
direction of the story with the remake they change a bunch of things like they they couldn't get the original voices for the songs or I think there was something the lyrics weren't were copyright I don't remember the full specifics but like even the the songs that she sings are different in the remake but they had those songs live in my head rent-free like yeah yeah and then when they changed the lyrics of the remake I was like what the hell
00:07:21
Speaker
And it's like... It's funny. I looked at the remake and I immediately was like, oh no, this lost all of its charm. Like, this pig lost all of its charm. I don't like it. It loses its charm. The music loses its connection where, like, the lyrics are, like, foreshadowing the game. So, like, they lose that. And then, yeah, they even lose Galleon's, like, whole setup. But he was a good guy. He loved
00:07:49
Speaker
you know, dying and he loved like, like he was a good person. And then just a series of events just kind of brought out a side of him that was, you know, dark and twisted. And then it just kind of got worse from there, especially when he started to believe that he could rule and he could do it all better than everybody else. Right. So it's like his mind starts to get warped. But like, I love that that they have that buildup and they like lose it entirely in the remake.
00:08:15
Speaker
and just kind of make him really petty so like I understand why listeners if you're listening if you've played the remake and not the original maybe you didn't like him as much as a villain you're like why is she why is this guy on her list but like he does have quite a big buildup in the game
00:08:31
Speaker
um in the silver star story complete game and even in the original sega saturn version of the game and even the novels if you if you're interested in reading the novels there's a whole novel series fun fact um but uh yeah so i i put him as number five because i thought like he he had that really good buildup and stuff and also like i i feel like there's a lot of like really great villains and a lot of jrpg games like a lot of people haven't played and this is one of the games that i feel like a lot of people haven't played and they really should
00:09:03
Speaker
I'm not gonna lie. I don't have anything else to say, because like, this is my number five, too. Okay, okay, I just want to write from underneath me. I was like,
00:09:20
Speaker
In hindsight, I wish I went first now because I'm like, damn, everything that I was going to say, everything that I was going to highlight, you pretty much just nailed it. So I honestly love when we're in sync like that because it doesn't always happen because we have very like we tend to like lean sometimes on different characters. I don't think we're going to actually I don't know if we're going to be in sync completely, but you have played a couple of the games that I have characters on the list, so.
00:09:46
Speaker
I know for a fact that- That you have to go with number four first, because I don't wanna- No, no, no, no, no, I'm definitely gonna. Number four is one of the characters that you know on the list. So again, I
Exploring Graff: Manipulation and History
00:09:59
Speaker
am going to, this is not a primary antagonist. I would say they're like a almost secondary antagonist. And we're gonna get into some deep shit because,
00:10:13
Speaker
Again, this is a spoiler. This is a massive spoiler for Xenogears. Massive spoiler. No way. Okay. Well, my number four is graph from Xenogears.
00:10:30
Speaker
And let the fucking go. All right, Xenogears spoiler, everybody skip ahead if you don't want it. This is going to massively, but I'm going to let KJ take the reins of here because we have to both save four and five in this spoiler. There's so many things in Xenogears that are like, OK, there's a lot of sort of like psychological bullshit that's happening and like there's a lot of like things that happened in the past and then sort of
00:10:57
Speaker
split off embodiment of hatred. Like that is graph. Graph is a sort of like past of, there's a character that basically a bunch of tragic things happen and their soul like basically lives or gets reincarnated into the main character. But then the embodiment of hatred that they have ends up forming graph.
00:11:25
Speaker
So Graff ends up basically like finding a, I won't spoil too much, but Graff basically finds a vessel almost and then it's like a back and forth struggle with that vessel to like when certain personalities sort of show up. So it's a lot of like almost like Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde type thing. And Graff I feel like is just great because
00:11:55
Speaker
When you see Graf, it's always in a situation where, oh shit, this villain is about to make everything worse. Graf's timing is so good. Graf shows up and just like,
00:12:14
Speaker
basically gives like he basically puts whatever enemy that you're about to fight on steroids and it's like it is it is so good and the conversation with Graf is always very like almost condescending in a sense of like he knows that he is more powerful or he thinks he's more powerful and he's looking to try to basically
00:12:40
Speaker
avenge the things that happened in his past life. And I personally like I love when there's also sort of like a, we'll say, quote unquote, redemption arc. And so like at the end, the things that happened with Graf, like when you realize who Graf really is and sort of how all of the things unraveled and how it all happened, like you really you're like, oh, I kind of feel for them now.
00:13:10
Speaker
And yeah, I don't know, for me, a good villain has many layers. And I think the fact that graph has, has those layers and has like, that side where it's like, Oh, wow, I actually really wish that
00:13:28
Speaker
things could have been different almost. Like that is something I think the amount of depth of the character and the progression of the character I think is really good. And it's funny because you see graph in very, very few
00:13:46
Speaker
scenes, or like, I would say few scenes, but not a lot of scenes. Like, graph does not get a ton of screen time, but when graph does get screen time, it's memorable. Like, you remember- Yeah, and it's a powerful moment. Yeah, exactly. You remember the scenes when graph is around. And the other thing I will say is, graph's ability to manipulate redacted, and I'm gonna leave that out for spoilers, ability to manipulate redacted,
00:14:16
Speaker
to kind of go forward and do a bunch of things that are progressing his agenda are just, it's so good. It's so damn good. Like, yeah, Graff does a great job. I really, really enjoy Graff as a character. And I think it's all like, a lot of times it felt like as the player, you were just a chess piece in Graff's game.
00:14:44
Speaker
Oh my God. Yeah. It's so funny that we both picked it because when I was really thinking about it, like you played Xenogears before I did, and then you were kind of in my chat and you were just like, oh my God, I love Grapp. And when I really sat down because we're eventually going to do a Xenogears review podcast episode, hee hee foreshadowing.
00:15:05
Speaker
um but uh when i was really sitting down and like really thinking about it i was like holy crap graph the reasons why i like graph is similar to galleon where it was like he has this whole story of why he is what he is now um and it's like and you kind of feel for him but he also every time he's in a scene it's very powerful and it's very like oh my goodness and it's and it's just like
00:15:28
Speaker
Do you want power kind of thing? And you're just like, Oh, you could just picture the creepy voice, um, along through it. I kept picturing like Darth Vader's voice, but you know, I was like,
00:15:44
Speaker
But for me with like graph and everything, and I'm throwing to a game that maybe some people haven't heard of, but I'm just going to say it just for some listeners to be like, I know
Graff's Unique Motivations Compared
00:15:53
Speaker
what she's talking about. In Twisted Metal series, there is Calypso who's running the tournament. And he has this whole thing that if you win the tournament, you get one wish, you get your ultimate wish granted. But there's always a catch.
00:16:06
Speaker
Graf is kind of like that. He's like, do you want power? I could give you power to like fight this fight, but there's always a case.
00:16:14
Speaker
And it doesn't bode well for the person getting the power from him. And so it reminded me a lot of that too, which I love the Twisted Metal games and I love that sort of like double-edged sword of being like, oh, you get your one wish, but if you're not really careful with how you word it, like, you know, you're going to just get screwed over in the end. And Graf is kind of like that too, because in the end, like he just
00:16:40
Speaker
he has a path that he wants to like undo every horrible things that happened to him and everything that went on and he's got the set mind and set goal and like he doesn't care who he uses to get to it and he's not necessarily playing ball with anybody which at the beginning you think you're like okay he's with the bad guys
00:17:05
Speaker
nah he's his own thing like even like the end boss of the game and everything that's revealed and stuff you go through i had more pull towards graph of being like yeah but then you got this motherfucker
00:17:19
Speaker
in the corner, just causing complete chaos. It's like, holy shit. So like, yeah, I had to put them on the list. And I laugh really hard that we both had the same number four and five. That's hilarious. Yeah, that's, that's kind of wild. Because like, I went back and like thought about like, because I wanted to think more about the Xenogears stuff or whatever, when we start talking about it for the thing. But I'm like,
00:17:40
Speaker
I actually really liked him as a thing. I know Xenogears gets kind of some flack because it was, you know, rushed and there's so many things with it, but like he was done well. Like he's done really well. And to me, I was more drawn to him as being the main antagonist, even though he was more of a side antagonist. Yeah.
00:18:03
Speaker
And just even just his appearance was fucking cool. And like his gear, his gear looked really freaking cool. And like he always had his arm like extended out of being like I or like having his arms crossed. It's just being like, I am above all of you. Like that's just very like there. His cool because of redacted. Because it was it was effectively redacted.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's true. That's true. That's true. I mean, yeah. I mean, you're not wrong. That's true. But like, still, though. And I know and I know because of redacted is the way he looks at stuff like that, too. So but like, I'm just kind of like, OK, I love this guy. This guy's one of these days I will get Zenogears figures. It'll happen eventually.
00:18:53
Speaker
Same, same. I need to decide what I want first, but like same. And then I also thought about I'm like. Because I don't know if they have like the characters, I think they have only the the gears. They have they have two gears and two characters like the bring arts ones. They have. Oh, OK. OK. Yeah, it's one of those. They Ellie, well, tall and the red gear.
00:19:21
Speaker
Okay, yeah, see I'm just like thinking in my mind how hard would it be to 3d model graph and to print it? Oh, that'd be cool. That'd be cool as shit. I'm probably gonna do a Perler art of graph. That's probably yeah, your Billy looked awesome
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, that's the next, uh, I was hoping I was actually, when you sent me Billy, I was going to be like, where's Chris? Cause like the bath pun is right there because, uh, for the, for our listeners who might not know, uh, KJ has been diving into Perler art and it's like lining beads with like specific positions of like pixel pixel part. But if you look at it, it kind of looks like a graph, like a grid graph. And I was like, Oh, come on. The pun is right there. Graph on a graph. Yeah.
00:20:06
Speaker
Got you anyway. But that's that's hilarious. He's number three. This is you. Let's see if it's the same. I don't think it's going to be the same, but like. Hmm. I think this is where we start to differ, we'll see. I think number two went into being the same, but. Yeah, hit us with it.
Lazard's Twisted Evolution
00:20:30
Speaker
All right, so number three for me is, so I'm going to say it right now. So I say the game just in case people need to like vacate for this game too. They are in Valkyrie profile one and two.
00:20:45
Speaker
um and for me so i'm just gonna say valkyrie profile one and two da-da-da-da-da spoiler spoiler spoiler okay so um did not my number three is lizard valus so lizard i and i specify the first two fucking games i've i specify both games because
00:21:06
Speaker
He's twisted in one, but he is twisted in two. So, like, the two of them leading up and building up as character was just like, okay, he's definitely on this list. And why he's above Galleon and Graf for me, which is kind of a little bit unfair because they only had one game to, like, build this up. But it's just kind of like... I find my feelings are a little bit more towards Valkyrie Profile 1 and 2, but 2 also did a good job of making it even more twisted.
00:21:35
Speaker
But yeah, he's basically built up as the sorcerer who's constantly researching and investing. And he's very classic of that trope of taking things too far, so experimenting and stuff.
00:21:52
Speaker
He also portrays something that like, even in our own world, happens a lot. It's just when somebody gets incredibly obsessed with somebody else at how mentally unstable they can become. And like, he ends up being super obsessed with Letta Valkyrie and the Valkyrie. And so, and has all these like really twisted game plans to like, basically like,
00:22:22
Speaker
keep her for himself. Like, like a, like a pet and it's, it's really messed up. Like her soul and like, uh, yeah, it's weird. Yeah. And like a homunculus doll thing that he made and it's, it's real twisted and you're playing this game and you're like,
00:22:37
Speaker
this because you're like going through and you're like seeing the souls and everybody of like who died and stuff of bringing them on and you're doing this for Odin and yada-yada and you're getting bits and pieces of like something is like in a mince and not all right and you know the world of between like Asgard and Midgard and so you're getting bits of pieces but then you get this guy
00:23:01
Speaker
It's just kind of it's kind of there and he's so intertwined into the main the the main good ending of the story that He it's just it's so messed up like he's like experimenting on people and he's like Turning significant others into freaking monsters and having them like just oh my god He's very twisted and he has a his own tower that you have to go through so
00:23:27
Speaker
The tower sucks and it's hard and it's annoyingly hard. That tower is the worst dungeon in either of the games. That tower, that took me two hours to go through. It was brutal. And watching you do that, I was like, oh, I remembered the page. The thing is, I didn't realize it was optional either. I just stumbled upon it and I was like, oh.
00:23:49
Speaker
This is a place. And yeah, that just sucked. It's good that you did it because you have to do it for the good ending. And I know you were going for the good ending. And that's the big thing about Lazar Valith and why I cite two in here, because he can technically like, like his whole tower and more revealed of him can actually be missable content in the original game.
00:24:11
Speaker
Um, and so for me i'm just kind of like a lot of people can end up like like you you'll see him and other like depending on you'll see him in a couple other uh and harry our stories But you can miss his tower entirely which which reveals a lot of his like sick and twisted reasons for why he's doing things whereas in valkyrie profile 2 as long as you play the game
00:24:35
Speaker
You get, you get his whole experience worse. Cause not only, not only, not only is he twisted and obsessed and his main obsession is still there, uh, but he's also lying, manipulating it, backstabbing everybody. So he's a crazy motherfucker, crazy motherfucker, but they do him so well that they set up that way. And like,
00:24:59
Speaker
Again, he's another instance where when it came to Valkyrie Profile 1, I was more like, this fucking guy, over even just like the end boss and end sequence. So similar to Graf and the end boss and the end sequence to Zito Gears, I found Graf more powerful of an antagonist for me. Lazard is the same thing for Valkyrie Profile 1 and 2. And then 2, they set it up where finally they're like, okay, yeah, we see that he was the
00:25:27
Speaker
you know, more interesting, I say interesting lightly, more twisted, bad guy. And then, and they really, they really amped it up in two. And so and solidify why you have to play one before you play two. And so I was like, I was just like, okay,
00:25:48
Speaker
And he okay, you know, he's a great villain when he creeps you the fuck out. He creeped me out Like he creeped me out so much and I was like, oh my god. I don't like this guy. It's realistic. He is a very realistic like
00:26:03
Speaker
like had stalkers like that and well not to that extent I mean he's a fictional character but like but I mean have been stalked and like obsessed over and like and even having you know a little bit happened to myself it's it's one of those scenarios where you're just like holy shit this is hitting a little too close oh my god so he's he's believable but he's also terrifying too because he's so believable if that makes sense
00:26:32
Speaker
And if he's near number three, I'm going to fucking throw my water glass right now. No, he's not my number three. It was close. He I'll even I'll say it right now. He's my number two.
00:26:41
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So we, we swapped order. Okay. Yeah. Only. And the reason he's my number two is because he's just that well-written. Yeah. Um, they did a really, really good job. And I think both games did a really good job on him. Whereas I prefer Valkyrie profile one over two. I will say that. And we both had the episode of the podcast where we reviewed two and we both kind of say said that there too. But one thing that I did really like it too was.
00:27:09
Speaker
the whole buildup and reveal of him too. And honestly, I would even like, I was, when I put him on this list, I wasn't even thinking about that career profile one, to be completely honest.
00:27:21
Speaker
Well, so you put him on the list for two just for two alone. Yeah. Yeah. Alone. Like for two alone. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, they do. They write him so well into with like all of the making him making them think that he's in your party and he's going to be fine. And then like just pulling out the fact that everything is a fucking crazy part of his crazy little fucking world. Like, yeah, that's so well.
00:27:48
Speaker
they do and like and that's why I tried to emphasize two more than one because one he's missable like a lot of his stuff is missable in the game so it's a little bit hard to be like oh yeah he has I think but in two he has such a large impact into it man from like start to finish like neither one of us starting Valkyrie Profile 2 neither one of us being like
00:28:12
Speaker
I don't trust him. Yeah, I know. I saw him in the party and I was like, I don't fucking trust this. Neither one of us used to be there. I used to do a little bit because he was good. Like he was powerful. I was like, fuck yeah. Like I have a character like I didn't have any mages at the time. So I was like, fuck it. Let's do this. But yeah, no, he. Yeah, no, not at all.
00:28:35
Speaker
But that kind of puts me in a weird spot because my number two is now like like two and three were a toss up for me, I will say. OK, so this is fine. I can go ahead. You could talk about your number three then. Yes. So my number three is the and I'm sorry for anybody, anybody that has not played this series and is listening to this podcast episode because I am about to completely spoil this like
00:29:05
Speaker
10 game series. So if you have not played Kingdom Hearts, please run. Run fast, far away. Run fast, run far. My number three
Xehanort's Strategic Villainy in Kingdom Hearts
00:29:20
Speaker
is Xehanort. Xehanort, like, so Xehanort's backstory being like researcher and all of this and like
00:29:33
Speaker
sort of having all of these different, like, assistants and all this stuff. Like, Xehanort's backstory is very interesting. And then you go from that to, like, really, he's just trying to, like, have all the Keyblade War stuff and reenact all of the, like, reenact all of the Kingdom Hearts stuff. Yo, it is fucking wild. Like, going from
00:30:02
Speaker
Going from where the story starts in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep. I'm not even talking about the Kingdom Hearts mobile game that's canon or anything like that. I'm just talking about the games that came out on consoles. Going from Birth by Sleep.
00:30:18
Speaker
all the way through. Like, especially once you get that, once you get the backstory and everything from Birth by Sleep, it's like, you just, you see everything from him creating like, from him creating Vanitas to him fucking like, taking over Terra to going back in time and like,
00:30:39
Speaker
making sure he has, like, basically young versions of himself. Yo, it is fucking nuts. Like, there is... He has many layers. Xehanort's plans. And that's the thing, like, his plans, they just unravel and, like, in such a way that it's like, holy fuck. And...
00:31:00
Speaker
Even though people talk about how convoluted the story is with like all of the different games and all the different worlds and all the different characters and the heartless and the nobodies and all of these different things, it does end up flowing well. And without giving out any spoilers, like Xehanort is pulling a lot of the strings. And yeah, it just...
00:31:29
Speaker
He's one of those characters that he has, I feel like, so for me, and this is probably gonna spoil some things, because I think this character is gonna be your number two. But I look, when I look at a villain, I look at the villain and I say, are they crazy? Are they evil? Are they both? What are their motives? And like,
00:31:58
Speaker
How are they going about things? And for me, a villain isn't just pure evil. Like a villain to me, like all of the, especially all of the villains that I, like all the antagonists that I have on this list are like, they're ruthless in their own regard, but they also are very like,
00:32:24
Speaker
They have reasons, they are thought out. And so, yeah, Xehanort, I think the way that his plan, the way that he had his plan all together and like, just the way that he went about trying to do everything, like, it's impressive. And even the bits of pieces that I've played of the Kingdom Hearts series, like, I can see him being built up to being this ultimate villain and Kingdom Hearts series, like, there's, you know, mixed opinions aside, it sounds like he,
00:32:55
Speaker
It sounds like people are hitting the nail in the head when they say he's a really good villain. Mm-hmm. Like, I've only played a few of the games, and at some point, I'll go through the entire series in, like, a little bit of order so that I could get a little bit more of it. But even from the ones that I got, it's like, it's crazy how twisted and everything he is, and just, like, he kind of has that mastermind puppeting thing that Galleon's giving, but, like, way worse. Yeah. So.
00:33:25
Speaker
So Xehanort is your number three. Interesting. Interesting. So I'm interested in now your number two, because my number two is Luca Blight. Wow, I just said the name of not my number two. There we go. That's great. Totally messed that up. That's okay. My number two is Lazard.
00:33:49
Speaker
Who is your number two? I just revealed my number one on accident. It's all good. It's all good. I knew it was going to be something probably I didn't know, so it's all good. Yeah, my number two, I don't think you would have been able to guess it. Really?
00:34:06
Speaker
My number two is, so I'm going to spoil it because this character's from Persona 4. I've already talked to KJ. He has no plans of playing this game. I have no desire. So he doesn't care that I'm doing this, but I'm saying this to all our listeners right now. If you are planning on playing Persona 4 Golden, please jump ahead as this is a major spoiler of the entire game. There's no way for me to say this character without spoiling the whole game.
00:34:36
Speaker
So like police jump ahead. All right. So for persona four golden, persona four, persona four golden, I am going off of golden because I feel like they went a little bit further in depth with him and putting him in number two. He would have been in number five otherwise for me.
00:34:57
Speaker
So Persona 4 Golden kind of solidified him higher up the list for me because of how terrifying it was. So the villain in Persona 4 Golden for me that puts it at number two is Toru Adachi.
00:35:16
Speaker
this guy. Holy shit. So he is one of those person people with like layers to the point of that he has so many layers that at the core he is just
00:35:30
Speaker
evil like so he has a lot of layers on top of it to try to give you some sort of aspect of what it but you start off this game as him kind of like being your caregiver in the games your caregiver is a police detective he is the sidekick police detective of your caregiver in the game and he is not somebody most people suspected unless you were really paying attention
00:35:56
Speaker
So the game does such a good job at revealing him as an awful human being in existence, but does it at its pace that unless you're really nitpicking and looking back, you're like, okay, I could kind of see there's a little bit here. You wouldn't suspect him.
00:36:17
Speaker
He's a bumbling nice guy. He's kind of lazy with his job. You know, he's always kind of like they're helping you bridge the gap between you and your caregiver. Like he's helping out a lot. He's really friendly and helpful. But he's also kind of stupid. So like, he, you know, and you're kind of going through this or whatever. And you're like, okay,
00:36:40
Speaker
way through the game. It's they do this so well, too, is that it's subtle enough that you might not notice it a first playthrough. But if you if you're really paying attention, you can notice so that so there's a few people, I believe, Kat, one of our mutual friends, kind of figured started to saw the signs because she was very invested in the game. She was doing a lot of the side stuff. And she kind of like really caught on to a few things.
00:37:08
Speaker
Also, she just was in love with him and immediately, well, everybody I love turns bad guys. So there was also that, but, um, yeah, this guy, he starts to go unhinged about halfway through. So he starts saying things where you're just like.
00:37:23
Speaker
What the fuck? But you don't really pay a whole lot of attention unless you're like doing a lot of the social link things and you're doing a lot of like, like you're really kind of paying attention to his dialogue. He starts to shift a little bit because he's starting to get nervous.
00:37:39
Speaker
that you're getting closer and closer and closer to figuring things out so as you develop this game you're figuring things out and then by a point you think it's this person and he and he thinks he's safe so then he goes back to kind of normal for a little while where he's you know like oh yeah i'm a good guy
00:37:58
Speaker
But he is literally the reason for everything. He sounds like a murder mystery. Yeah, he's a murder mystery person. And by the time you get towards the end of the game, you have such few suspects left. Well, that was straight up a guess. I didn't realize there's actually like a murder mystery. Yeah, it is. So he's like murdering people or whatever and blaming like putting like basically putting the blame on other people. And then you start to see that one of them that it was pinned on, although crazy.
00:38:28
Speaker
You could tell that they were influenced by somebody else. So then you had to start to think, huh, who left?
Adachi: From Friendly to Sinister
00:38:37
Speaker
Could this actually be revealed to be like there? It's just like there's so few other characters left that you've interacted with. So they paint him up really, really well. And then when they're revealed, KJ, I'm not even killing the killing. Oh my God. I'm not even kidding. The reason he's killing people.
00:39:00
Speaker
He's bored. So it gets revealed that he starts being this like he's bored. He joined the police force just to get a gun.
00:39:12
Speaker
so that he can walk around carrying a gun. That's why he joins the police force. And then he has this weird messed up look on the world that he just wants. So he keeps trying to paint it like there's a reason. So he keeps going, oh, I don't want any more pain and suffering in the world. There's a lot of pain and suffering.
00:39:33
Speaker
But if you play Persona Golden and you actually unlock where you get to be a social link sort of thing with him and you actually can choose to be his accomplice. I'm not even kidding. There's this part of the game where you could be a bad guy.
00:39:49
Speaker
It's you actually see that he is just straight up evil. He just wants to kill people and get away with it. He just wants to have power and be in control. And he uses this whole alternate world to his advantage to gain that power because he realized just because he was walking around with a gun, he wasn't really going to be able to do it and get he got he get caught.
00:40:11
Speaker
Yeah, fairly quickly as a police detective. He learned that like, oh, you know, I can't actually kill people because that's wild. It's fucking wild. And there's so many layers to it where you're built up all the thing. And you're led to believe in the OG vanilla version that, you know, he just wants all this pain and suffering then you're like, okay. But then you, when you actually find out like he kills a girl because.
00:40:33
Speaker
Because she was cheating on somebody, whatever. So he kills her. He's like, nah, this is an unforgivable thing. And he kills her. And then he's like, ooh. And then he's like, oh, I like you. But you don't like me back. I'm going to kill you. And it's just layers of like, he just wanted to kill people. He just wanted to feel powerful and have all this power and do these horrible things. Deep down, that's all he wanted. And you can literally do a whole side thing where you're on his side.
00:41:02
Speaker
Oh, that sounds awful. It is messed up. And for curiosity's sake, of course, I went down that path a little bit to see because I'm like, your main character really hates himself by the end of that. Like he is so tortured and so upset.
00:41:17
Speaker
And all the friends that you build up along the way just end up hating you by the end because they sense something is amiss and it's not really uncovered, but you're not revealing anything and you're hiding it because Adachi's blackmailing you. So if you try to throw Adachi under the bus, he's going to throw you under the bus. And it is this really messed up storyline of a segue of the game, which is just interesting to see. But holy man, KJ, this guy.
00:41:47
Speaker
all these layers of like super good guys, super friendly guys, super bubbling idiot, manipulating all these people into thinking it's somebody else killing people. And then deep down in his core, he's just pure evil. He just wants power. He wants to feel powerful of people. And how one way to feel powerful over people is like having control of whether they live or die. And that's wow.
00:42:15
Speaker
And it's like, oh, holy shit. You're just like mind blown throughout the whole game. And it is one of the redeeming qualities of Persona 4 Golden that I encourage people to play the game to do it because just just that unveiling is great. But there's also a lot of issues with Persona 4 Golden that even make it so that like I probably won't play it again just because there's some really bad things. That's fair.
00:42:43
Speaker
and stuff. But I always look at it as like the overall game is good. You can kind of put that I think it's the same reason for like, you know, Final Fantasy 10. I still love it, even though there's a problematic character in that. I still love Final Fantasy six, even though there's a problematic character in that. So it's one of those things like I could put it aside.
00:43:04
Speaker
As long as you know the game and everything else is good and persona for golden is a similar state of that But yeah, this is my number two because he's like he is just layers upon layers upon layers, but at the very core of it he's just a terrifying human being because ultimately he just wants to be in control of everything and just wants to feel power and just wants to kill people and that's just that's a that is a thing that there are psychopaths out there like that and
00:43:30
Speaker
And so that's another one where it touched a little Duke. It was just built up really well because it was very believable. Yeah, that's fair. But you have to play Persona 4 Golden to get it all. Because they don't give you the full story in the OG one. And they don't, between the layers and stuff like that, and you get his whole thing in Golden.
00:43:56
Speaker
as opposed to the vanilla one, which I feel like that kind of sucked a little bit because if anybody played the OG vanilla one, they already knew the reveal. So it was less impactful when they played Golden, even if they did get more of the layers. You know what I mean? So it was a little unfortunate that that circumstance happened that way. But that's why I just encourage everybody to play Golden and not vanilla.
00:44:21
Speaker
because you got it. Yeah, you get that antagonistic. So yeah, that's my that's my number two. You know, my number two and my number one. We already talked about my number two. So my number two is is Lazard. I think we had we we've
00:44:36
Speaker
disgust a ton of him. So now I'm gonna do the almost impossible and dance around all kinds of spoilers to talk about what I think is the best antagonist by far. Like when we
Luca Blight: Pure Evil Embodied
00:44:52
Speaker
decided we were gonna do this list, it was the first name that I wrote down.
00:44:55
Speaker
And that is Luca Blight from Sweet Coating 2. And so the reason I didn't say like any spoiler warning or anything is because it is very obvious from the very beginning of the game that he is the antagonist. So there is no sugarcoating that one. Luca Blight is 100% the antagonist of Sweet Coating 2. So this dude,
00:45:24
Speaker
His evil is rooted in a lot of family trauma, and there's a lot of things that are really fucked up. And I don't want to get too far into it just because, like,
00:45:39
Speaker
There's and I wonder if my order will will change when I play. Oh, yeah, I think it's going to be in your top five by the by the end of by the end of you planks. We couldn't do like 100 percent like this dude like there is probably the most iconic scene.
00:45:54
Speaker
in Suikoden 2 is like, and this is sort of spoiler, but not really, is like the dude sets a village on fire and then has the people of the village beg him to keep them alive. And he like makes the person get on all fours and like. Like. Oh, my God. Like an animal. And then kills them anyway.
00:46:22
Speaker
Oh my God. I was going to say, does he just kill them anyway? Yeah. Yeah. No, this dude is, he is like the embodiment of all things evil. And the thing is, is like not only he's, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, take Kefka's evil.
00:46:43
Speaker
but transform it into a he actively knows what he's doing isn't just doing it as a game has real motives and still just want and still wants to take over the world but it's come it's it's come from trauma it is come from family things that happened that he
00:47:03
Speaker
Saw and was experienced that caused him to hate other family members want to get revenge and then just do a bunch of evil shit and all in the like all in the sort of All in with his agenda of he wants to dominate the world it's just it is so
00:47:33
Speaker
fucking wild. And like, when you do finally this is this is something and again, this isn't this is light on the spoiler side because like obviously you're gonna play like you play the game and like you're gonna you're gonna see it but like, yeah, he says something along the lines of like, even though you've killed me, it took you hundreds of men to kill me.
00:47:58
Speaker
where I've killed hundreds and thousands of men. But he is the embodiment of just pure evil. And honestly, I've never experienced a villain that goes about things in the way that he does.
00:48:21
Speaker
where he actually has purpose. Because again, people can argue, and depending on if you're number one is Kafka, I don't know if it is, but if it is, the argument of how evil he is is there. And maybe this is because it's a Super Nintendo game, but the lack of development for me personally puts Luca Blight leagues above.
00:48:49
Speaker
Above Kefka personally, but yeah, so my number one is Luca Blight again I can I'm trying to dance around spoilers cuz I think I can lay this all out and you'll just be like, holy fuck but yeah, no Luca Blight he I Don't think I've ever played a game where I'm like where I've been thinking I want to kill this character more than when I was fighting when I was playing sweet code into like Luca Blight just
00:49:18
Speaker
he transcends what I thought antagonists in an RPG could be, so. Okay, that's awesome. That gets me even more hyped away. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because he sounds like terrifying, and I'm like, okay. For me, this list was also just degrees of terrifying as they went up the ladder. That's fair. That's totally fair. All right, take it away.
Kefka's Nihilistic Impact
00:49:48
Speaker
You already know. So the funny thing is this is actually tied with Adachi for a while because just the layers of how Persona 4 Golden, but like I also had to kind of compare it a little bit too because of like technological time periods.
00:50:05
Speaker
So, like, Persona 4 Golden really, like, really pushed the Vita to the limits and had a lot of content in it. And so developed Adachi from, like, good guy, seemingly good guy, to, like, horrifying bad guy fairly well. And the pacing was done really, really well.
00:50:26
Speaker
well, that my number one still terrifies me because of childhood terrifying. I was terrified of this antagonist as a kid, but it's also like now that I've gotten to, now that there's more stuff out there evolving around it,
00:50:45
Speaker
Still can be my number one for now, but it's like Realizing how many JRPGs and how other characters were on this list? Like I I'm just gonna say it I had Kuja from Final Fantasy 9 on this list originally way back when before we played Well, that makes sense. Yeah, I think war would have been on this list for me had had I not played had Xenogears not been a thing I
00:51:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I think a lot of people like hide themselves behind the big franchise of RPG gates that they're, they're missing a lot of these other, uh, these other potential ones that have these more terrifying villains. But for me, so my number one, uh, KJ's already mentioned it. Uh, my number one is from Final Fantasy six. It's pretty obvious at this point, even if you haven't played the game, I'm sure you've already heard because it's like,
00:51:36
Speaker
they're in Dissidia and so many other things as a villain and very much paint it that way, is Kafka. And it sounds like Luca Bray from Suikuto 2 is like a more fucked up version of Kafka, which has me even more terrified to play the game. That's fine. It's clean too. I think after playing Trails, I would have probably, the main villain in Trails in the Sky,
00:52:05
Speaker
who probably would have knocked Gallion off the list for me.
00:52:10
Speaker
Interesting. I'm excited. I'm solely partway through one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So for me with my number one villain is being Kefka. So I played this game as a kid. This was my very first RPG game. It took me a few playthroughs to kind of get the whole story behind Kefka because it's not super obvious. And then I also feel like due to the limitations of that particular game of where they didn't go
00:52:37
Speaker
too far to care development with a lot of things. Because I had a lot of characters, I had a lot of story, like Final Fantasy VI is still my favorite game of all time for Final Fantasy games. But I do realize there was like, there was some stuff that I definitely think would have like, that they talk about in the Ultimania and in Dissidia and stuff like that, that
00:52:59
Speaker
kind of boosted a little bit. So I'm just going to go off of Final Fantasy VI itself. But basically, Kefka brings out the I'm terrified of clowns trope for a lot of people. That is true. So as a kid, I was already like, I don't like clowns. And Kefka is basically, he's a court jester kind of thing, right? That's how he starts out. And then they started experimenting on him.
00:53:28
Speaker
Um, as being one of like the first experiments of like the match tech stuff, but it goes horribly wrong and kind of makes them a little bit more insane. But they're like, even though he was kind of this goofy gesture, there is also hints towards that.
00:53:43
Speaker
He had some dark humor, but not saying dark humor was a bad thing, but dark stuff that I think the experiment, though going horribly wrong, just amplified it all. It just brought it all because now it gave him power. Now suddenly he could do something.
00:54:01
Speaker
before he's dancing for entertainment for the Emperor and stuff like that. But now he actually has real power and now suddenly the things are within reach. And he's terrifying at how much manipulating he does from the start of the game all the way throughout. Because it's painting the entire empire as the bad thing.
00:54:29
Speaker
And he's not the Emperor. Gestahl is the Emperor. So like he's kind of one of the subordinates. So like you see a lot of the supportments, but deep down you realize as you progress in that game,
00:54:44
Speaker
Kafka is really the one running the show and like Manipulating everybody to run the show which is terrifying so like he's manipulating the Emperor and then turns on him he's manipulating like he manipulates terror with the slave crown or whatever and like burned cities and stuff like that with her and like all these things and he's his maniacal laughter is like You know
00:55:07
Speaker
Iconic in the jrpg community is just laughing like crazy So because he's still having some of that like course gesture Bits in him, but now he's like so much darker and he's making like dark humor jokes towards The horrible things he's done and then things just keep getting worse So like you start off a little bit where they're like, okay, he put on the slave crown of terra He did all this stuff and you're like, okay
00:55:33
Speaker
And then you see him going to Figaro or Fargo Figaro or whatever castle and he's like in the middle of a desert and then complaining that there's sand on his boots and like but his soldiers are so terrified of him that they like get on their knees and start cleaning it off like immediately.
00:55:52
Speaker
And you're just like, OK, who is this creepy clown man? And so you progress into the story more and it gets worse. He poisons a whole freaking village because he wants to. He, you know, he is just like this embodiment of like.
00:56:11
Speaker
Evil like just evil and and while he like a lot of that was brought out with experiment and stuff and and honestly, that's kind of the side of like Final Fantasy 6 of how it builds up or whatever is like, you know Tara also did really horrible things but had a slave crown on her but with Kefka, it's more like
00:56:30
Speaker
Yeah, you were experimenting on on, but now you got to own your own shit. You're you're you took that power and you're like, I am going to fuck shit up. Whereas Tara was like, got her control and she's like, no, I want to fix it. Yeah. And I think the biggest thing is like. Is exactly that like, but. The backstory for.
00:56:56
Speaker
But I feel like they don't reveal enough of the actual, like there's a lot of theories out there. Yeah. And I think that was, that was one thing I found with Final Fantasy six is like lead up with everything with Kefka is that they didn't dive a whole lot into it. And then, so you're just kinda more or less led to believe he's just crazy where it's.
00:57:18
Speaker
There's more layers to it to that and there's bits of pieces of it throughout but it's not enough that like gives you that development and so for me like He's still terrifying because one clowns but also to just Just all the awful things he does and the progression of it like things like he he's he is so
00:57:42
Speaker
Like he's so manipulative and doing all these dark and horrible things, but on the same side, he is super narcissistic. That is true. And people like that terrify me of like, and like just the whole, like he's obsessed with his appearance and everything. And then like he just hates anybody who's trying to do anything good because he thinks he just, ultimately he feels like there's no,
00:58:09
Speaker
like he doesn't care about anything but he just he just wants everybody to kind of like burn right so and then
00:58:17
Speaker
But he is also so vulnerable in a sense that even the little bit of him being injured and the sight of his own blood sends him into a fury. So he's like terrified. So he has a bit of like soul in there of like, he's scared of being hurt ish, because he like flies into this frenzy. But like after being hurt or whatever, it just goes fucking nuts. But like,
00:58:42
Speaker
when you're fighting him in battle or whatever. But at the same time, he's okay inflicting all of that onto millions of people. And he believes love and hope and anything positive is completely worthless and wants to destroy it all and everything. So it's terrifying to me to have a villain who's just ultimately against anything even remotely good in the world.
00:59:11
Speaker
being a creepy clown. That doesn't help. And then on top of it all, just like all the little bits of him that still make him a little bit realistic, like his narcissism and his, you know, really dark humor and like his maniacal laugh and like all these other things where I'm just like, Oh my God, I just, I don't, but you're right.
00:59:35
Speaker
some of his build up in future things of like in the ultimatium that they did and stuff like that gives him a little bit more in depth into that. So it's like absolutely 100% fair, especially this day and age when we're playing more and more JRPG game. Exactly. He doesn't have as much development as that antagonist as let's say Adachi. That's why they're kind of tied for me.
01:00:03
Speaker
because Adachi had that thing. But at the same time, I realized it's a Super Nintendo game. And I think of it also a little bit as if Final Fantasy VI came out the same time as Persona 4 Golden, which is my other top of the villains, I was like,
01:00:25
Speaker
a lot of this would have been included and I think the two like I think the two of them would have like rivaled each other if not Kefka would have still come out a little bit more on top because in the end like some of like Adachi's things of being like oh woman didn't love him so he killed her that kind of bit you're like yeah that's kind of just more scumbaggy but like also yeah I see what you're saying whereas Kefka it's more there's there's more layers to there like it's like he he had that like like
01:00:53
Speaker
Like deep down, like with it, it's like, he definitely reminds me of like the truth, like that kind of the villain trope of like, Oh, I had nothing and they made fun of me and I only had this thing and then I got power and that shit happens. Like, you know, obviously the experiment and fucked him up too. So like, there's also that, that maybe he wouldn't have come out as evil if he didn't, if he wasn't experimented on. But you know, he signed up to be experimented on because he wanted power.
01:01:23
Speaker
he wanted that he wanted that control and the fact that like even the emperor in the end you're like that's kevka and he turns on the emperor and of course it is him in the end and messes up the world it becomes what he what everything comes up in final 56 try not to spoil super a lot of it but like yeah he
01:01:47
Speaker
He still terrifies me. Like he terrifies me as a villain. Clowns are clowns are just they're clowns. So. Yeah. And like even even just like all his story in his plot and like all the things that he does in the game to the people you care about in the game. Like I love Sian like him murdering his whole friggin village and family and poisoning the lake was poisoning the lake and laughing about it like I'm going.
01:02:15
Speaker
Like he does so many of these horrifyingly evil things that it's like, that build up that like bits and pieces were like, you build up the, this love for these characters and you just see all along the way. It's him. He's the one who fucked around like, and with Tara and made her do some terrible things. He's the one who like took science family away. Like there's just so many things there. Like, you know, he took general Leo, like all these things in there where you're just like,
01:02:45
Speaker
crap everything I love you keep destroying it and that's just because he just believes that like he doesn't believe that love and hope or anything like that should exist so like he is trying to strip all of that away and it's just like oh my god no I don't want you to exist ever yeah well then that that went very similar to how I thought it was going to I
01:03:12
Speaker
I figured that- The fact that we had three of the five the same, just one was out of order is- When I made my list, I was pretty certain that at least Galleon and Lazard would be on your list. I didn't know who else would be on the list, but yeah, no, that was good.
01:03:36
Speaker
So just kind of any closing statements before we wrap this up. Closing statements is, KJ and I are still playing a lot of JRPGs. And it's quite a crazy thinking about this list and how different it would have been for me had I not played Persona 4, had I not played Xenogears, like how I had, funny enough, I had several Final Fantasy villains.
01:04:06
Speaker
I would have had several Vital Fantasy villains in there because I played, like a lot of people growing up, I played a lot of mostly Squaresoft and NX games, and so for RPGs and stuff, so I didn't explore. But KJ and I are playing more and more RPGs now that are outside of that realm. And while there are a few Square Ones here, I think three for me,
01:04:31
Speaker
It's one of those things where it's like every time I play in one of these new ones, I see the creativity and stuff like that that they have in it as per villains and stuff like that. And even playing Golden Sun, for example, going through Golden Sun 1 and 2 and all of that plot reveal and stuff, I was like, wow, I still, deep down, did not feel like there was a super movie.
01:04:55
Speaker
bad guy doesn't necessarily, except for that secret boss. Fuck that guy. What's that? You said in Golden Sun? Well, I met like a lot of the bad guys of like, I was like, sympathizing a little bit with them. You know what I mean? No, no, no, no, no. There's definitely one person in Golden Sun that I'm just like, there was somebody in Golden Sun that was almost on this list for me.
01:05:19
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I know what you're talking, I know what you're talking about now. Yes. Yes. You were right. Yeah. The one, the one, the one S. But I'm just saying like some of the, like the side woods and stuff like that. Like I thought about putting, putting them, putting them on it.
01:05:35
Speaker
And then Graf ended up beating, pushing Galleon down, so then Galleon ended up pushing, pushing the main Golden Sun 1 and 2 villain out, the one that's revealed by the end and everything. But like, there's like some of those A-Taggotists going through the first game and then into the second where it's just like, aww.
01:05:56
Speaker
I feel bad for you guys and sometimes like that also creates a good antagonist to me too is that they don't necessarily always have to be like like straight evil through the core and that's like with galleon for me with graph for me um they were both like they were both that was brought out of them yeah due to circumstances
01:06:21
Speaker
But then the ultimate terrifying antagonist for me are the Lazar, the Adachi, the Kefkas. What are those that are realistic? Yeah. Also, you're not going to have sympathy for them. You're just like, no.
01:06:41
Speaker
Yeah, like I'm not I'm not gonna be on Lazard side there. I'm not simple. No, you you crazy not gonna be on a dachi side No, I'm not gonna be on Kafka's or whatever and like I but with galleon and graph you kind of feel for them a little bit
01:06:55
Speaker
from here and there. A little bit. There's a little. I mean, they're still fucking crazy, but like a little. Just a little. Awesome. So let's say we wrap this up then. Thank you everybody for listening in. We'll be back with some more.
01:07:12
Speaker
Hopefully some more bonus episodes, but also some more episodes. Our next episode is the Trails in the Sky one and two episode. That'll be sometime the end of June, maybe the beginning of July, depending on how long it takes to wrap the game up. But yeah, this was this is awesome. Thanks for listening and we'll catch on the next one. Yeah.