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Episode 19: Shin Megami Tensei V: Vengeance
47 Plays4 months ago
Kj's first SMT game, and Poly revisiting SMTV with the new Vengeance content. Listen in to see how we felt about it!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Episode
00:00:01
kj2294
Okay, so we are here, everybody, and we are here for the next episode of Turn Based Tangents on KJ.
00:00:08
polymune
Um, Polly.
00:00:09
kj2294
And we are covering SMT5
Pivot from Legend of Legacy
00:00:14
kj2294
Vengeance. So this was supposed to be the Legend of Legacy podcast episode. However, that game's bad.
00:00:20
kj2294
um Outright, that game sucks.
00:00:23
polymune
I didn't even get to load it up.
00:00:23
kj2294
um
00:00:24
polymune
Like KJ played like a couple of hours of it and sent me this big long message of like, uh, and then explained why. And I was like, let's pivot.
00:00:34
kj2294
i can't get those I can't get those three or four hours of my life back and I'm upset about it.
00:00:37
polymune
Yeah.
00:00:38
kj2294
I'm very upset about it.
00:00:39
polymune
Yep, yep.
00:00:39
kj2294
it was just It was a mess. The game was like incredibly grindy. ah in this and it's like so It had a system very similar to, I think, like the saga system where you have like life points, but the problem is they force
00:00:53
polymune
Yes, very saga.
00:00:56
kj2294
they force a very specific sort of general gameplay loop of like you have your tank and then you're like your DPS and your healer and it's basically like eventually your tank keeps getting whittled down and they keep losing like life points and every time you bring them back to life they lose more life points if they die and stuff like that so their life starts to get smaller and smaller and if any of your characters run out of their actual life points It's game over.
00:01:26
kj2294
So it's not even just one character, or it's not even just main character dies and it's game over because there isn't really a main character because you're picking characters, right?
Introduction to SMT5 Vengeance
00:01:36
kj2294
It's actually just that if any character dies like that, for real, for real, it's game over.
00:01:36
polymune
Right.
00:01:43
kj2294
And it's it was just, it wasn't fun.
00:01:43
polymune
Oof. Yeah.
00:01:45
kj2294
It was a bad time. Like I i tried, I really tried.
00:01:48
polymune
As soon as he explained that to me, I was like, no. And I was kind of coming off a period of time where I'm like, I want something I'm enjoying to play. And I was already partway through SMT5 Vengeance.
00:02:00
polymune
So when he said, hey, you know can we pivot? like Can we drop this? because i i I don't want to go through this." I said, yeah, that's fair. and Then I'm like, would you be open to playing SMT5 Vengeance?
00:02:12
polymune
and He had played a bit of it before, I think of five, and said, yeah, okay.
00:02:17
kj2294
yeah
00:02:17
polymune
so That's why we pivoted. We ended up pivoting to one I had already been playing.
00:02:22
kj2294
This ended up being the better of two evils, but I'll i'll keep this. I'll keep the emphasis of evils.
00:02:32
polymune
Oh, goodness, this is going to be a fun episode. If we thought we got canceled for the Golden Sun take.
00:02:39
kj2294
It's not that bad. It's not that bad. Like this game.
00:02:42
polymune
We still have two subscribers. It's OK.
00:02:46
kj2294
Yeah, you know, it's yeah, so.
00:02:52
kj2294
This game was basically the Atlas special, right? Like they do this all the time. They they come out with a game, then like a year or two, three years later, they come out with the definitive edition that has the DLC that has extra stuff and like right from the beginning.
00:02:57
polymune
Yes.
00:03:09
kj2294
So I've i played the beginning of SMT five. up through, like, up past where you actually experienced the new character.
New Content and Characters in SMT5 Vengeance
00:03:17
kj2294
Now, I know you get a choice in SMT5 Vengeance that you don't get in the original SMT5, and that was what kind of is the trigger for whether or not you're gonna be on the Vengeance route or the Standard route, right?
00:03:26
polymune
Correct.
00:03:31
polymune
Mm-hmm.
00:03:35
kj2294
So I, not having played the other route, like I chose to do this the vengeance route because I figured, okay, this will be good. Like I'm playing SMT5 vengeance. I might as well do this one. And I know Polly was going down that route as well.
00:03:47
kj2294
And also.
00:03:48
polymune
Yeah, because I had already gone through SMT 5 when it first came out, so I was all in on the new route and I thought that was very unique because generally the Atlas Special is like you get some DLC and you get some additional content and a slightly different ending, but you don't, but they kind of redid a big portion of the game and then made it a separate game.
00:04:13
polymune
which i thought was very interesting so i was very intrigued done by why they did that and how they were gonna play that out which is very different and uh generally uh atlas does this with persona games uh smt nocturne got a little tiny taste of it way back in the day but then smt 5 is the first time where it got like the atlas treatment and then it got like a full blown
00:04:34
kj2294
I thought they did it with four too. i think I think with four they actually came out with a separate game, like it's a sequel.
00:04:41
polymune
Oh, did they?
00:04:42
kj2294
I think there's
00:04:42
polymune
Because I've never actually played four, so i I can't speak on it.
00:04:44
kj2294
yeah fours on the I think there are two SMT fours on the ah the DS as well. I think they're both on the 3DS rather. But yeah, it was really cool. Like I agree with you. It was really cool because my understanding of Persona 5 Royal is like versus Persona 5 is Persona 5 Royal is the same game until a point and then they add all the extra content.
00:05:05
kj2294
Right.
00:05:06
polymune
Yeah, and they they add in like a couple extra social links right at the kind of the like near the beginning, which is interesting.
00:05:07
kj2294
Whereas this.
00:05:13
polymune
But yeah, a lot of it is basically the exact same as ah the original until a point where they start to de deviate. And then I mean, some of it's still the same and then they like kind of change ah the ending and that sequence and stuff like that.
00:05:30
polymune
So yeah, and they did that with four and they did that with um three and stuff like that too.
00:05:36
kj2294
Three as well, right? Yeah.
00:05:38
polymune
So like coming into SMT5 Vengeance when it was first announced, I was like, I was really excited about it because it was like i kind going to come out on my birthday, which was super exciting.
00:05:50
polymune
And then also it was like, no, no, no, it's not just some like DSC extra content. It's rebuilding the game. And I, mm-hmm.
00:05:59
kj2294
Yeah, and they did it really well. like i i mean i knew I was told very early that like there was one character that wasn't actually in the game originally, and the way that they weaved that character into all of the story dialogue and also turned into like
00:06:10
polymune
Yeah.
00:06:17
kj2294
a decision making process, which I believe ended up probably will go more in depth on it, but I believe ended up deciding like the ending that you get and what like what path you go down.
00:06:20
polymune
Yep.
00:06:28
kj2294
I think they did that really well. That is something I really do think that they did and did a good job of.
00:06:31
polymune
it felt like she was always there when she wasn't like, I played the original game. She wasn't there. So they did such a great job implementing that change and then making that change basically snowball throughout the game, um, into different, a different path and different choices. And even the gameplay mechanics too, like they kinda, they, they start off with a the very similar like mechanics of SMT five.
Gameplay and Story Enhancements
00:07:01
polymune
except that they made improvements onto it and they changed the combat music so that you knew you were in the different path and all these little things where I'm just like, I was very blown away about the level of commitment they went to into the game to giving you a new experience, even if you played the game before.
00:07:21
polymune
but also giving people the ability to play either one if they were brand new to the series, or brand new to the game, which I think is really cool. Because you can do either path in the same game. So you can go through the Path of Creation, um or you could be go through the Vengeance Path. So the Vengeance Path gives you new characters, ah two new endings. And then if you go through the Path of Creation, um you get um You have four different endings you could do.
00:07:52
polymune
Three of them um are ones you can get in one playthrough. The fourth one is very difficult to get without doing New Game Plus because it involves a lot of like extra content that you have to do.
00:07:58
kj2294
Mm hmm.
00:08:05
polymune
so
00:08:05
kj2294
Now, I guess my first question is, is that character the only new character?
00:08:13
polymune
No.
00:08:14
kj2294
OK, so I don't I'm trying not to give like because this game has very I think we have to be vague because this game has very little story to begin with.
00:08:14
polymune
um Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:23
kj2294
And that's that's just kind of SMT.
00:08:25
polymune
And it had very little story in creation and vengeance has more story than creation did. But yes, SMT is very much known for its limited story, I guess.
00:08:37
kj2294
So I don't wanna go exactly.
00:08:38
polymune
Yeah. I don't want to say things too, but there are, they're different.
00:08:42
kj2294
so
00:08:43
polymune
There's different demons. There's different.
00:08:46
kj2294
Yeah, I figured there were different demons just based on, like i I would imagine the story demons weren't there.
00:08:47
polymune
Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:53
kj2294
like the demons that The special demons that you can get that were story-tied aren't all in the first game, I would imagine, right?
00:08:59
polymune
Correct um and then you do have a new character right at the beginning and then all the characters that were even in the original game all.
00:09:00
kj2294
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
00:09:12
polymune
change, if that makes sense. like their Their path is different, ah except for except for one.
00:09:14
kj2294
Oh.
00:09:19
polymune
um And what happens to ah what happens to some of them didn't happen in the original and things like that. So they really went into a progressive like
00:09:29
kj2294
Got
00:09:33
polymune
This is going to be very different than the original, which I particularly liked as somebody who was replaying it because I really liked the original and I wanted to see the new stuff, not expecting this level of change, um which I think was really cool.
00:09:49
kj2294
Okay. No, that is cool.
00:09:51
polymune
But yeah, but stay vague because I mean, what like, I don't want to spoil the story for people because there's, yeah.
00:09:56
kj2294
I'm going to, again, there's, there's very little story in these games to begin with.
00:10:00
polymune
There's still people playing it, so.
00:10:02
kj2294
Yeah. There's very little story in these games to begin with. So I don't want to, I don't want to give up really any story because if you're somebody that, if you're somebody that's playing these games for story and you
00:10:05
polymune
Yeah.
Discussion on Game Length Issues
00:10:11
kj2294
want that, like that's going to be, yeah, but I so i will.
00:10:12
polymune
Exactly. And I'd rather people be able to turn tune into the podcast and not be super spoiled.
00:10:19
kj2294
Um, I guess in that case, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about the endings, but we should probably be vague about that. Um, there is.
00:10:27
polymune
I'm going to leave that for the very end. um That way we can do like a spoiler warning thing and then i will be I won't go into depth on what the endings like portray and I think we should hold back on that just because this is a newer game and we want to encourage people to go out and play it.
00:10:29
kj2294
Okay.
00:10:37
kj2294
Yeah.
00:10:41
polymune
Well, I do. ah We'll see but see people's opinions and by the end.
00:10:45
kj2294
I am indifferent. I'm very indifferent.
00:10:47
polymune
Um, but like, so, uh, I will be a little vague. I'm just going to touch a base on why you and I actually got different endings in the end. Um, but, uh, Sounds good.
00:10:57
kj2294
Okay, cool. so here's what i will So I'll go into the things that I enjoyed about the game. um but Actually, ah we'll go back and forth.
00:11:06
polymune
Or, or yeah, we can do that. I was going to ask you a question being like, what did you think of the art style?
00:11:13
kj2294
I mean, the art was cool. I think the art and music, that the music got repetitive. The music was good. It was like whenever I got to a new area, I liked the music and then eventually got repetitive. If I have to hear that battle theme one more time, I might rip my ears off um because it felt like it was just the same thing over and over again unless you were in a boss fight, which I don't know. it was Again, it was solid and I think e the general sort of...
00:11:42
kj2294
but art I like the art style, but I think they could have done more with the landscapes because I think it was a lot of open and simple.
00:11:48
polymune
Mm, yeah, they are very simplistic.
00:11:52
kj2294
Yeah, it was a lot. It was very open. It was very simple. And for me, it was just like, okay. I mean, they start you off in the desert and it's like, okay, I'm in the desert for the first like 10, 15 hours of the game. And I'm just like, this is kind of rough.
00:12:05
kj2294
And then you go into a... desert area but with buildings and it's like okay like this is still kind of rough then you go into like snowy areas and it's like okay this isn't as bad and then it's just like more snowy area but with buildings and I'm like okay I'm lord oh right right I do remember reading that yeah
00:12:23
polymune
The funny thing is, is you being like, that's not as bad. The snowy area is one of the the new areas they added.
00:12:34
polymune
Yeah, the snowy area was not in the, that snow and like like, when you ran through the little plants and they lit up. Yeah, that area wasn't in the original game at all.
00:12:42
kj2294
yeah also the temple oh my goodness the temple was so tedious yeah that temple is tedious yeah I mean I don't know I I didn't again I was in a
00:12:49
polymune
That, unfortunately, a similar version of it is in the original and I, I i was not a happy camper during that.
00:13:02
polymune
It definitely felt like they were trying to be safe by putting it like very simplistic stuff because they were gearing it towards the switch, um which at the same time,
00:13:16
kj2294
Yeah, I guess four did or five did come out on the switch, right?
00:13:19
polymune
Yeah, so Five came out on the Switch and then Vengeance, you know, ended up being multi-platform, was absolutely fantastic. However, they still had the core base game that is ah from the Switch. My only gripe of all of that, though, is I really wish they would have then, since they were already expanding and doing the new area, to maybe jazz up the textures a little bit in the different areas and stuff, but they did like most areas were taken from the original.
00:13:52
polymune
um Some things were tweaked, I did notice that, and things like the light rail portion thing, so you know those like like little red things you can uncover to like basically speed across the map.
00:14:03
kj2294
Yeah, yeah and those are cool.
00:14:05
polymune
those Those were in addition to the game because a lot of people's complaints of the original was that it took you too long from your teleportation points to get to certain points. And if you died, you had to go all the way back.
00:14:20
polymune
And it was frustrating to navigate through some of these very long level like areas that between like, uh, uh, way points and stuff like that, lay lines are lay line points or whatever.
00:14:34
polymune
Um, and so they added a few more lay lines and then they'd give gave those two so that you could like get through it quicker, which I mean, at least they listened to pretty well, a good chunk of the feedback of the first game.
00:14:48
polymune
Cause that was one of the big things.
00:14:50
kj2294
So I, that's really interesting because that actually brings me to one of my biggest pain points of this game. Main character, okay, so main character death being a game over is a garbage mechanic, okay?
00:15:05
kj2294
Now I get, can like from a story perspective, it's like, sure, the main character is summoning the demons.
00:15:05
polymune
Yeah.
00:15:09
polymune
Yeah.
00:15:11
kj2294
Well, first of all, you have humans in your party too. So, That isn't that like humans should be able to heal the main character. Like I could get if it was like, oh, if the main character dies, then, and there's no humans in the party, then sure, that's that. But then what makes it worse is eventually there's a damn skill that you can, your demons can use items. So if your demons can fucking use items, they can revive you. Oh my goodness. That shit drove me nuts.
00:15:45
polymune
So fun, fun, fun fact about that in the original, there was no, you didn't get humans in your party.
00:15:53
kj2294
I know I figured because those are the extra characters Okay,
00:15:53
polymune
You were, you were, yeah, yeah. Those are the extras. And even those extras like, like even your friends, like Dazai and stuff like that, you didn't get to use them either, um, in the original.
00:16:04
kj2294
but you did get to use them in this game for a little bit yeah
00:16:04
polymune
So. Exactly. Yeah. So they did add that in as a mechanic, but I definitely sympathize with you on that one because that is a mechanic that Atlas likes to do in their persona games and their SMT games. If the main character dies, it's game over for everybody. And I was playing on hard mode because I played the original on normal. So I wanted to go through this one with a challenge because I would I knew I was going to know some of the stuff. I already knew the mechanics and stuff, even though they updated things and they made things easier and they added new mechanics in, which was really cool. um But I knew I was going to go in with a, I've played this game before, so I put it on hard mode. And yeah, sometimes enemies would one-shot my main character and it was like, ah, game over. And if I hadn't saved,
00:16:55
polymune
I liked that they updated like where you could save anywhere like anywhere. I don't remember if that was in the original or not. I can't like i played it when it first came out.
00:17:03
kj2294
I think you could.
00:17:05
polymune
I think you could as well. so like I did like that
Character Customization in SMT5 Vengeance
00:17:08
polymune
you could save anywhere. and After a few one shots at the near the beginning, I started to be wiser. and Anytime I went up against an enemy, I thought maybe it would be a challenge, I would save it.
00:17:18
polymune
however
00:17:18
kj2294
Yes, and.
00:17:19
polymune
main character death in games does frustrate me too and definitely is one of my frustrations with Persona and SMT games for sure.
00:17:28
kj2294
And I think.
00:17:28
polymune
Especially when you're playing on harder difficulties too.
00:17:31
kj2294
I think one of the biggest things is like. I had to, so from a very early point, like your standard sort of weaknesses. And so I really enjoyed the way you could build character you build your character, right?
00:17:41
polymune
Oh good, yeah.
00:17:41
kj2294
And one of the things I realized, it's like, okay. the main character death is a, is an important thing. So I basically built the way I built my character.
00:17:52
kj2294
I was originally going with like a a build of just like balance. And then I looked at it and I was like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm just going to, there was, I got an item that let me like re re-skill and I just went straight
00:18:06
polymune
Which is so good because I don't think that was in the original.
00:18:07
kj2294
I just went straight strength and fucking vitality and then said, okay, I'm just, I'm just going to be a powerhouse.
00:18:12
polymune
You did.
00:18:15
kj2294
I think by the end of the game, my strength was in the one fifties.
00:18:18
polymune
Yeah, you had it like I was just like, OK, he's going he's going he's going straight.
00:18:18
kj2294
And I was like, yeah, I just went full strength build. And what I did was I basically built my character in a way that I had, um,
00:18:32
kj2294
immunity either like resistance or immunity to everything because what was happening to me in the beginning of the game and I was on normal, but I was running into like my main characters either weak to darker light and dark and light auto kills on weakness at times.
00:18:44
polymune
Yeah.
00:18:48
polymune
They do.
00:18:48
kj2294
So
00:18:49
polymune
Yeah.
00:18:50
kj2294
That was the thing that pissed me off the most that was where I was feeling the main character death the most was in the beginning because I think by default your main characters week to dark. And I was running into stuff that would use darkness spells and I would just die and I'm like what the fuck and then once I recruited some demons which again.
00:18:58
polymune
Yes, he is. Yeah.
00:19:08
kj2294
and Another cool thing, like being able to recruit the demons and negotiate and all that stuff.
00:19:11
polymune
Mm hmm.
00:19:11
kj2294
That was awesome. But once I started recruiting some demons that were, that had those dark and light spells and I saw like, Oh, auto kill. I'm like, Oh, okay. That is, that is something I definitely think like that would have been, you know, that would have been good.
00:19:22
polymune
Yeah.
00:19:27
polymune
because
00:19:27
kj2294
Like that would have been good to know. But I think overall, like the. That was one thing I did, like like the customizability like how well you could customize your character in terms of their weaknesses and their stats and their abilities and stuff.
00:19:38
polymune
Their stats and their weaknesses. Yeah. That's huge. And their abilities.
00:19:43
kj2294
like
00:19:43
polymune
Yep. Yep. The ones you can move use.
00:19:44
kj2294
Yeah, I thought that was really cool. And the idea that like that comes from the essence of the different demons and like that essence has gotten through like leveling the demons up and stuff like that. I thought that was really cool. I think the there becomes a point where they do kind of force you to fuse your demons and make other ones, which is kind of frustrating because I think eventually it just gets to a point where they stop learning stuff, which I don't like, but.
00:20:13
kj2294
I don't know. I think in general the that whole process was really cool and I really did enjoy the demon fusing part too. I felt like Polly fusing all those Pokรฉmon.
00:20:21
polymune
Oh good.
00:20:24
kj2294
It was like, oh, I'm fusing these demons and like making other things.
00:20:26
polymune
Isn't it fun?
00:20:27
kj2294
and i I ended up um
00:20:28
polymune
Yeah. Did you ever get a mistake?
00:20:31
kj2294
ended up I bought the, I was just about to say, I bought the skill that got me a mistake, like would get you like randomly, it wouldn't be exactly what they, what they said it would be or what you would think it would be. And that was cool. um It didn't necessarily, it never screwed me over, which was nice. um But yeah, overall, like I think it just ended up working out that they,
00:20:54
kj2294
The process was really good and I had a good time. Like the true game for me was sort of the demon fusion fusion aspect of it, because I mean, don't get me wrong, the press turn system is cool, but eventually it started to get a little tiring when it was like, okay, well, it's cool for me, but it's also like if I run into a mob of like seven things, all of a sudden they're abusing the press turn system too and that's not great, so.
00:21:21
polymune
Yeah. No, it's true.
00:21:25
polymune
But I'm glad that you ended up enjoying the the fusion aspect because i I love that with like Persona games and SMT alike, being able to fuse them to create stronger ah demons and stuff like that or personas ah is really, really cool. ah One thing that I really liked that they adapted from the original version um is they had it where you could go to like a little area where you could talk to your demons.
00:21:55
polymune
I'm and so that demon hot.
00:21:55
kj2294
Okay.
00:21:59
polymune
I think it's called demon hot ah that demon on place was not in the original which ended up making it really.
00:21:59
kj2294
Oh.
00:22:04
kj2294
oh
00:22:07
polymune
difficult in the og to like Get them to be stronger so you had to just always be fusing and never keep a character in your party for very long because like.
00:22:17
kj2294
Oh!
00:22:18
polymune
You know they would learn their seals and then that was it kind of idea, but in this they not only gave you where as your your demons stay in your party and they level up they have chances.
00:22:31
polymune
You can get abilities where they have chances to get skills or new things, but they also gave you an area where you could talk to your demons and give them stuff to then also force like a power-up or a ah new skill or things like that, which I thought was really cool because that was not in the original game, where it made for being able to keep character like demons you liked longer.
00:22:35
kj2294
me Yeah!
00:22:58
polymune
um which made me bond with them more.
00:22:59
kj2294
Yeah, that is fair, yeah, the, yeah.
00:23:01
polymune
So like I bonded with Idun. I liked Alice. like ah you know There were certain ones where I had them for a long ah period of time because I was able to have them for a long period of time.
00:23:16
polymune
ah Because they had these changes to the mechanics to allow you to bond more with them Which was one of my complaints in the original that I'm like, okay, you get all these sweet demons and stuff but then like you're constantly like Changing them out like, you know You don't ever keep them for very long and they're not like Pokemon where they evolve into something new you have to like actually Yeah, so that was
00:23:33
kj2294
So. You're saying you're basically saying that this game allowed you to keep them longer because of those things. As I felt like I felt like it was unless I so you got the you got the um the things to like level them up to closer to your level, unless I got those, I felt like I had to keep using stuff.
00:24:02
polymune
Okay, that's fair. Yeah, depending on so like it depends on your skills, like there's certain skills like yeah I always had a lot of my demons have the um the one where if they're lower level than you, um they gain experience a lot more.
00:24:16
polymune
They gain way more experience.
00:24:17
kj2294
Okay.
00:24:18
polymune
So I find that helps a lot with like that aspect of things. Again, I'm going in with this having already played, so I knew some of the skills and stuff. I also was changing my um main character's affinity ah very regularly up until I could just make him so where he was just strong against everything.
00:24:38
kj2294
Okay.
00:24:38
polymune
when you get some of those essences near the end of the game. But I was constantly changing it depending on the ba boss fight that I had to do and stuff like that. But also depending on what party I was using, I would change my main character um and some of the spells he would use in order to compensate for what I was missing so I could use characters longer.
00:24:53
kj2294
Oh,
00:24:56
kj2294
I totally did not I was the things I was changing on my main character would like I would get a better physical physical spell and use that and then everything else was oh I got resist dark.
00:25:09
kj2294
Oh, no
Importance of Luck Stat
00:25:10
kj2294
now I'm I've got immunity dark like that's literally what I was doing I was just swapping out the immunities by the end Yeah
00:25:15
polymune
And that's fair, because you went for a very like strength and vitality-based build, which means like you didn't need any of the magic abilities. You just used your demons to have magic.
00:25:24
kj2294
Oh, no.
00:25:27
polymune
Whereas I went for a very different build, because in the original, I did what you did, where I went strength, vitality, and a little bit of I had agility up as well. um But in this game, I went magic and luck.
00:25:41
polymune
And I did not realize how mean the luck stat gets to the enemy if you start really putting into it because luck actually basically controls your crit rate.
00:25:49
kj2294
Interesting.
00:25:54
polymune
Like how many times you crit or how often you crit, but it also controls like, um, uh, like certain things.
00:25:55
kj2294
Yeah.
00:26:03
polymune
Like, you know, how you were struggling with them instant killing you. Well, if you have the luck stat up, you are less likely to get triggered by one of those instant kill stuff.
00:26:07
kj2294
Oh, yeah.
00:26:13
kj2294
That makes sense. Yeah, extra abilities and stuff. And yeah, that definitely makes sense.
00:26:16
polymune
So I went super magic and super luck. So by the end of the game, I was a magic tank um and I was critting every hit. um And I ended up not even necessarily needing my affinities to be like where I was immune to dark or light because I never got insta-killed because it never triggered because my luck stat was so high.
00:26:40
polymune
So I ended up with a like doing like triple nine um with magic and stuff like that because I was critting all the time their weakness.
00:26:49
kj2294
Okay, yeah, see, I wasn't hitting like that.
00:26:49
polymune
Yeah.
00:26:50
kj2294
I was definitely, I mean, I was hitting in like...
00:26:53
polymune
But I went with a very like nonsense route because I wanted not only did I go hard, but I also wanted a challenge to myself and I just went the magic and luck build and I just, I just poured everything into that. So you're 150 and fifty in strength was like, I was like maybe 110 and ten in magic and almost a hundred in luck.
00:27:14
kj2294
Jeez, yeah, I think I was like 110 in strength, or 150 in strength, and then like, 85 or 90 in Vitality.
00:27:22
polymune
Yeah, i think I think my three skills were agility, luck, and um ah magic. But luck and magic were the big ones.
00:27:28
kj2294
but I think we ended around the same level, because I think I ended... I think you said you ended around like level 75, and I think I was like 76 or 77.
00:27:34
polymune
Yeah, yeah, I was in the 70s. Yeah, because I had a fi on a Fion in my like end party, and you can't you can't even like get him until so level 71.
00:27:47
polymune
So I was definitely in my mid to high 70s.
00:27:49
kj2294
I don't remember what demons I had. I had a bunch of stuff like the demons that I had.
00:27:51
polymune
I knew you didn't get Fion because he, in the original was the same thing. In the original, you had to do a bunch of side quests to get him. um He was also part of getting the secret ending, which we'll all talk about later.
00:28:04
polymune
um But in this one, I went for him right away because I thought maybe there'd be a secret ending again. So I did all his side quests right away, and I unlocked the ability to fuse him pretty early on, but then like I had to wait until I was level 71 before I could actually make them.
00:28:21
kj2294
Yeah, I did get a lot of the story.
00:28:22
polymune
and
00:28:23
kj2294
I did do a lot of the story ones. I got any time, basically any time I saw a special demon, I fused it.
00:28:26
polymune
Yeah, that's cool.
00:28:31
polymune
Did you get Turbo Granny?
00:28:33
kj2294
Turbo Granny?
00:28:34
polymune
Did you get Turbo Granny?
00:28:36
kj2294
Who the hell is Turbo? Is that a name you gave it?
00:28:39
polymune
No, that's actually its name.
00:28:42
kj2294
Okay, no, I did not get Turbo Granny. No, I got like, I got the dude's um like wolf dog thing.
00:28:44
polymune
Okay. it was
00:28:49
polymune
Oh, yes.
00:28:49
kj2294
i got I got all of the, all but one of the, yeah, all but one of the story ones.
00:28:50
polymune
yeah Hayataro or whatever.
00:28:55
kj2294
I got like the big King Frost dude. I got Alice. I got Eden. I got like, I got a lot of them. um Basically, because basically they're all like either things you run into in the story or like bosses, right?
00:29:11
kj2294
And so I kept fusing them. I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna keep doing this. Like, oh, I got Loki. um Like I got a lot of the different things and I used quite a bit of them till like for a long time.
00:29:22
polymune
Oh, perfect, yeah.
00:29:25
kj2294
um But I think.
00:29:26
polymune
There was a lot of like is obscure new ah demons and stuff like that. that like um So Turbo Granny was one that you had to happen ah to go back to Tokyo ah sir at a point that you didn't necessarily need to go back to, but I went back to Tokyo to see like if there was any more quests and stuff like that before moving on to the plot.
00:29:31
kj2294
OK.
00:29:49
polymune
And there was this one person in like the random like when you're in the overlay of the town and you can just like move around. um There was somebody there that I talked to. They were talking about trying to get a picture of a phantom that they know exists that is really, really fast. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I got excited because I was like, because I like the agility build this time around. So I'm like, Ooh, a fast character. This is gonna be great.
00:30:12
polymune
Um, so it ends up being that you have to like chase the stupid demon around freaking Tokyo and like your
00:30:21
kj2294
This fucking thing's name is really Turbo Granny. i so I'm sorry, I just googled it.
00:30:24
polymune
Yeah, it is Turbo Granny!
00:30:24
kj2294
Like, what the fuck?
00:30:27
polymune
But it's so fast that you have to like basically run too and like catch it, and you have to catch it several times before finally you have to fight it.
00:30:31
kj2294
Mm-hmm.
00:30:35
polymune
um And then i got was like oh yeah and that I was so disappointed because I was like level 50 and it was 28. And I like one shot it.
00:30:45
kj2294
law
00:30:46
polymune
And then you get the ability to fuse it. And it's so damn weak that I was like, oh, you must have had to go back to this part like earlier in the story. And I just like took too long to come back and get it.
00:30:59
polymune
But I thought it was the most ridiculous, stupid thing because I'm like literally called Turbo Granny because it was really, really fast.
00:31:03
kj2294
that's dumb um That's absurd.
00:31:04
polymune
But it's used. It's used for a bigger fusion down the line. So it's something you do actually need for another fusion.
00:31:11
kj2294
Oh, that's probably. See, there were some that were like super high level that I was like, OK, that's like level 80 something. There is no shot. But I will say because I had trouble with.
00:31:19
polymune
Yeah, that's fair.
00:31:24
kj2294
Not the end of the game. I did have trouble with the one of the end bosses. And because I had trouble with that, I actually went back and did a bunch of the the side quest stuff. So I went and I went and fought like he was like Aries or something.
00:31:36
kj2294
Like there were gods and I was fighting gods because I was like, fuck this. I'm just doing like I'm just doing.
00:31:41
polymune
Yes. And that's how you get them to be able to fuse them too, is that you have to actually fight them, beat them, and then you get the ability to fuse them.
00:31:44
kj2294
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:49
kj2294
But the good thing was, the the really clutch thing was getting their essence, because you could get their essence and then get like get the super high level spells to put on the demons that I have, and that's what I did.
00:31:53
polymune
Oh yes, that's right. You do you get your their essence when you beat them.
00:32:02
kj2294
And that's that's honestly how I got through the game. like I was able to basically get all these super high level spells and then use the essence to buff the demons that I had and go from there.
00:32:14
polymune
Yeah. And see in the original game, I think I beat it in my sixties. Like I don't think I was this high. Um, however, uh, cause it was easier. I did find the original game even on normal, uh, was easier. I did go up to hard quite a few times in the original game. Um, and there is an aspect where you end up having to fight a level 90 boss in order to unlock one of the endings.
00:32:40
polymune
and so um But it's very difficult to do that in a first playthrough. In this game, though, it's actually a lot easier to level, and I found that um you going back and doing like the the the gods and stuff like that that you're fighting, like Ares and Odin and whatever.
00:33:00
polymune
um you going back and fighting them, getting their essences and stuff like that. I actually like that aspect, whereas in the original game, you had to play through the game twice before you could get technically the secret ending, or you had to do a lot of grinding with stuff that wasn't made for you to get above level 70.
00:33:19
polymune
So I like in this game where you gave you the ability to to go back and grind areas and a lot of the side quests let you do that because there ended up you know that it ended up being different talk on how the endings were conducted this time around.
00:33:20
kj2294
Yeah.
00:33:25
kj2294
Mm hmm.
00:33:36
polymune
So you got to be able to level more if you needed it to, where um you got to get better abilities and stuff like that. So I like that because some of the coolest demons are between level 70 and 90, like in the game. Some of the coolest ones in the game, you have to be between the levels of 70 and 90 and you don't need to get that high in the original game.
00:33:59
polymune
um
00:33:59
kj2294
OK.
00:34:00
polymune
going through it unless you're going for the fourth ending. So um that's another change that I really liked about it and it was cool that you utilized that when you got stuck because I thought that was kind of a genius way of like it made grinding
Challenges of the Final Boss Sequence
00:34:14
polymune
less like there was still grinding in the game but it made it more fun because you were challenging these gods and getting these really cool abilities afterwards.
00:34:20
kj2294
I mean.
00:34:23
kj2294
It was cool, yeah, and I think the the part that I think I that drove me that like.
00:34:23
polymune
it
00:34:29
kj2294
was the worst is there was no good way like and I wrote this in the very in the very beginning of the game and my notes and I felt really good about it money and resources in this game felt there until the final boss fight like the final boss sequence and This is going to be spoilers to anybody that is listening.
00:34:50
kj2294
like this is It's going to be loose spoilers, but it's still going to be spoilers. The final boss sequence is like three bosses in a row. so depending on i don't know if I think that's the case regardless of which path you go through.
00:35:00
polymune
yep
00:35:02
polymune
Yep.
00:35:03
kj2294
and
00:35:03
polymune
Yep. It's the same, either one.
00:35:05
kj2294
all of them are fucking damage sponges. And it pissed me off because it made me use all of my healing resources that were healing for MP.
00:35:10
polymune
Yep.
00:35:17
kj2294
And so by the time I got to the third one,
00:35:17
polymune
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:35:21
kj2294
I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Like I just need and I did end up powering through it. But like and luckily you can save in between. So at least there's that. But like I ended up having to basically farm one of the trading NPCs to get like the lowest.
00:35:39
kj2294
item that you can use to um recover MP to make sure that I could at least have turns where I would recover MP to do damage to the final boss.
00:35:49
kj2294
It was complete and utter bullshit. and that the the But this way.
00:35:54
polymune
Yeah, they did make that gauntlet. They did do make that gauntlet really hard, which in the ah original, the end bosses the ed bosses, it was not hard at all.
00:36:05
kj2294
The end boss is just the final boss that I fought, right?
00:36:08
polymune
Yeah, so they didn't do the gauntlet before and even our paths were different because we ended up fighting a different boss.
00:36:09
kj2294
that's what in this in the second boss that we fall is different which I don't know I I don't know how bad your boss fight was but
00:36:17
polymune
um
00:36:19
polymune
Yeah, yeah, I had the stupid angel guy um and you had somebody else.
00:36:27
polymune
I think I got the better end of the deal, which kind of sucked because I was playing on hard mode and looking for like that challenge and I found them really easy. But then hearing how you were with the second second boss in yours, I was like, damn it, I should have done your route.
00:36:44
kj2294
like can Here's the thing. Here's the thing. actually I didn't actually have a big problem with the second. i beat So the first one took me like a bunch of tries because I got into a state where they just basically sapped all of my resources and that sucked.
00:37:01
kj2294
The second one
00:37:02
polymune
Oh, the first one took your resources. So then, OK, that makes sense.
00:37:05
kj2294
second one actually I think the second one I did in two tries because the first time I figured out what the the gimmick was and then the second time, I think I did it in two tries. It might have been one and i might have just be like it might have just been one long thing. I've i've tried to dump the knowledge of this game out of my head.
00:37:23
kj2294
but The second one was actually really cool because the way that it kind of abused it it really made you try to abuse the press turn system, right? um And again, I'll talk a little bit about sort of what the gimmick was, because it's really straightforward, but it's basically that any it's it starts off weak to every every element. But if you use elements in that turn,
00:37:51
kj2294
Its next turn, it becomes it it starts to absorb those elements.
00:37:57
polymune
Oh, that's very different than what I did.
00:37:59
kj2294
And once you hit it with every element and it absorbs every element, it then charges. And then its next turn, it will unleash a almighty attack that hits everybody.
00:38:12
kj2294
and And then after that, it resets its abilities. So what you basically had, like, my strategy was, okay, when I know i hit it with a bunch of stuff at first, because I was like, oh, you're and you're weak to everything. And I'm just like doing that. And then I realized the next turn, oh, this fucker is now immune to like five different elements. I fucked up. So that's when I was like, okay, I need to be more calculated about this. So it was the case where it was like, okay, get all of your demons that have fire attacks and unload all of your fire attacks in one turn.
00:38:42
kj2294
And then it has and now has a fire immunity. Then do the same thing with electric. Then do the same thing with with dark. and Then do the same thing with light. And you just slowly start shifting away at it. The problem is, it has so much HP that you're still in a spot where it's just such a fucking damage bunch. that Each one of those fights Like the final boss actually was the shortest of the three. The final boss took me, like I first tried it and it took me about a half hour to like get through all of it. Cause it was just, it was a grind, right? the of Each of the other, i maybe it not a half hour, maybe like 20 minutes, each of the other fights took at least an hour.
00:39:28
kj2294
because it was just like, it was just a constant, because the the first one is like four different parts that heals itself constantly. And it was just like, oh my goodness. And again, I got to a point where I ran out of MP, so it was healing as much as I was doing damage, which just kind of ruined me. So yeah, that that was a pain, a huge pain in the ass, but I ended up getting through that one. The second one,
00:39:56
kj2294
It was just a long fight. Like, it was just a long, painful fight. And then the third one, like I said, it was a cakewalk, so.
00:40:04
polymune
okay yeah and honestly i felt a little let down through my aspect because i found my my second one was really easy and he and they didn't even give him like a new form or a cooler form or like a souped up form nah it was just him i was like okay well this is this is kind of this is kind of boring so i ended up
00:40:22
kj2294
Wow. See, I...
00:40:26
polymune
making quick quick work of him.
00:40:26
kj2294
yeah
00:40:29
polymune
But um but yeah, since we're talking a little bit more about spoiler stuff, um the thing that I thought was really interesting this time around where in the original SMT five, um you got to basically the end of the game and your last decision determined which ending you got.
Impact of Player Decisions on Ending
00:40:51
polymune
and who you sided with. And so um you had your two buddies, um they both had opposing opinions that you could either side with one or the other.
00:40:53
kj2294
okay
00:41:03
polymune
And then you had a third option, which was more or less like, I'm trying to be vague, but the the the human and demon that you see periodically throughout, um they're a third path, more or less.
00:41:16
kj2294
Yeah.
00:41:19
kj2294
Okay.
00:41:20
polymune
and so But you get to decide right at the end of the game, so you can get whatever ending you want at the end. um The only ah thing you need to do for an ending in that one is the fourth ending, which is the secret ending, where you have to do a bunch of the side content with Konzo, the demon who who took the the girl, is all I'm going to say,
00:41:43
polymune
um You have to do side stuff with him, you have to do you have to do all of Fion's side stuff and get Fion, and then um you have to ah beat this get all this stuff to unlock this boss that's level 90.
00:41:43
kj2294
Oh, yep. Okay.
00:41:58
polymune
It's intended for you to go through the game twice in order to do it because it's level 90, so you need to be higher than that or you're going to get one shot. um And so I ended up not wanting to go through the game a second time ah because there was no reason to technically, except for getting levels quicker. So I just grinded out until I was able to beat that boss so I could get the fourth ending.
00:42:20
kj2294
That sounds like cruel and unusual torture.
00:42:20
polymune
um so it it was It was. And I should have just went through the game a second time and saved myself so much headache. But I was so determined to get that ending. And when I got the ending, it was mind blowing, but it was also not worth all the effort I went through. So I was scared that was going to happen this time around. But this time around, they actually changed it up where your decisions throughout the game matter.
00:42:45
polymune
and depending on what you say in responses to basically everything you have a choice answer in determines whether you get one ending or the other. So you got your ending because you made the choices that you made throughout the game and I got my ending because mine were mostly
00:43:06
kj2294
Surprise, surprise, Polly was chaotic and I was lawful.
00:43:10
polymune
Yeah, yeah, it was just really funny because this is not the first time we've done this because we did this with Tactics Ogre Reborn 2.
00:43:11
kj2294
ah prize Surprise, ah prize surprise. surprise.
00:43:18
polymune
So, KJ got the lawful ending and I got the chaos ending. And I, hearing, like I don't want to go into too much of the endings because I want you guys to play this game and go through it, but hearing his, I actually prefer mine.
00:43:34
polymune
in this turn time around, but in the original game, I prefer the secret ending than all three of the others. like I didn't like any of the other ones except for the secret ending in the original, which it was behind such a grindy aspect that I was so mad because it didn't feel worth it. um and then But in this game, ah my ending ah that I got, I actually really enjoyed when I looked up what KJ went through and his ending, I was like, nah, I like my ending.
00:44:02
polymune
in the end. um But yeah, I thought that was really cool that they made your decisions matter, which is generally my pet peeve. And that was my pet peeve in the original game because you made choices and they didn't matter. By the end of the game, you made the final choice that mattered. Like all your choices throughout the game in the original didn't actually matter equ quite to anything. But in this game, and but like ah in vengeance, it did.
00:44:27
polymune
Like it ah it entirely matters on which ending you get, but this time there's only two, there was only two endings this time around, but like still though, I was like, oh, they like, i I'm happy. They changed that aspect because it was kind of, I was just like, you could just save it at the end of the game and the the original and just reload to get the three different.
00:44:46
polymune
And that's what I did until life like I was like, okay.
00:44:46
kj2294
Yeah.
00:44:48
polymune
And then when I heard that there was a fourth one and I had already done most of what I needed to do already, I went back and did a bunch of grinding and did it, got the fourth that day. And I was like, oh, this wasn't really worth all the effort I put into it, but okay.
00:45:01
polymune
um But but yeah, a lot of things like they make quality of life upgrades. They made extra demon fights that you could do where you're fighting like um the matador and other ones and stuff like that.
00:45:17
polymune
ah That was all.
00:45:17
kj2294
I thought a dragon, and that was cool. I had to go, there was like the ah quest where you go around and you fight all the different, like, I don't like, like these, and then you, yeah, that was cool.
00:45:21
polymune
Oh.
00:45:25
polymune
Yeah, so that was in the original, too, where you fight the four different um like east west. OK, yeah. Yeah, that dragon fight is really, really cool. That was in the original.
00:45:36
polymune
That's one of the ones I did to level up to get to the over 90 that I needed to get the secret ending is I did do that one.
00:45:43
kj2294
Okay.
00:45:44
polymune
So that one was in the original, but there was a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the original, like picking up the little stars that fell right at the beginning, kind of one where you're just like.
00:45:52
kj2294
oh yeah yeah i remember that yep
00:45:54
polymune
Yeah. there And they expanded like um things turning to salt. That was completely different. And then they gave more side quests around that.
00:46:06
polymune
and
00:46:06
kj2294
I will say the side quests for as many side quests as they as there were they didn't all feel super samey which was kind of nice like obviously some of them like you're gonna have repeated but they actually did feel very different which was cool I i will give them props on that as well like I feel like I do
00:46:16
polymune
Some of them were, but a lot of them weren't. Yeah.
00:46:24
polymune
which before I found all the side quests were kind of samey and you know, I didn't do a whole lot of them because they weren't necessary. The only ones that were necessary were the ones to get the secret ending.
00:46:32
kj2294
yeah
00:46:34
polymune
And those ones were really cool and interesting, but this one, yeah, I agree. They made them more unique. A lot of them didn't feel like the turbo granny thing. I thought that was hilarious. He had to run around the map trying to catch her.
00:46:46
polymune
And you know, if I was a lower level and did it when I was supposed to do it, it would have been really cool because i she probably would have been in my party for a bit. But I thought that was really neat. like they They really tried to think of cool ideas like where you had to take the pictures and send it to the students to get the one essence of a demon and like things like that where I'm just like, if they all felt unique and different.
00:47:10
polymune
Oh, another big difference which I thought was so cool is your character leveled up in this one.
00:47:17
kj2294
Did that not happen in the original?
00:47:17
polymune
In the original, you no, it did not, because the whole sequence that leads to you, I'm being vague, the whole sequence that leads to you leveling up does not happen in the original at all.
00:47:30
kj2294
Oh,
00:47:33
polymune
So, which I think is really cool, you get another upgrade of your character's appearance and everything, which is so cool.
00:47:41
kj2294
oh, right, right. Okay. Got you.
00:47:43
polymune
Yeah, that was not in the original game.
00:47:43
kj2294
Also, I just want to, I just want to say it's hilarious that you found Turbo Granny.
00:47:52
polymune
It is kind of funny that I found, hey, hey, I would thought you meant because you were doing all the side quests. No, you're taking the joke is that I'm grandma, apparently, and I hate it.
00:48:03
polymune
Everything keeps telling me I'm grandma.
00:48:04
kj2294
i successfully i successfully turned the new I successfully squeezed in the new Polly joke of the week into the podcast episode, and now I can
00:48:15
polymune
I hate.
Pros and Cons of SMT5 Vengeance
00:48:18
kj2294
now i can rest easy tonight.
00:48:18
polymune
You were definitely not sorry. Okay, earlier today, he was picking on me about being grandma, but we're doing a side twist here.
00:48:20
kj2294
actually okay
00:48:25
polymune
Anyway, yeah, you little sneak snuck that in there.
00:48:27
kj2294
three
00:48:28
polymune
I'm so mad right now. But but yeah, overall, like there was so many improvements over the original, so many additional content, so many additional demons, changes to the story, changes to the ending, changes to what happens to the characters in the game.
00:48:45
polymune
I will still go on record for both games now having played and beaten both of them. I hate Dazai and I will never like Dazai. I don't care. I'm sorry for the Dazai lovers out there.
00:48:57
polymune
I hate him.
00:48:58
kj2294
There's Dazai lovers?
00:48:58
polymune
I hate him. There is. There's a whole group of people who love him.
00:49:01
kj2294
What?
00:49:04
polymune
Love him.
00:49:04
kj2294
He's just kind of a shit, like...
00:49:06
polymune
he's he's said and he's where he He is worse in vengeance than he was in the original SMT5, but he still is awful in both, in my opinion.
00:49:19
kj2294
Fair enough. Yeah. I think the biggest thing for me in this game, and I went in and not expecting a lot of story and have is the story was ass or drop for most of the game.
00:49:29
polymune
Yeah, we warned you on that one because I i didn't want you to like
00:49:38
kj2294
And so I'm just, I'm not going to be around the bush, but again, this game is not supposed to have crazy story, but like, I think one of outside of that main character death piece,
00:49:38
polymune
yeah Yeah.
00:49:48
kj2294
the level scaling was just really weird. And I think that that really just, I don't know, I didn't like it. And I think that really kind of hurt me a little bit because I felt like there was points where I was like, okay, I feel like I'm overleveled. Then there were points where I'm like, okay, I'm definitely underleveled. Then by the end of the game, I was like, ah, shit, am I underleveled? And I think I was.
00:50:11
kj2294
And I beat the game, like because of how I was struggling with the final boss, I think I was underleveled and I'm just like, I don't know. And I'm just like, ah it is what it is. Like where I'm just, I'm just going to keep pushing through. And so I did end up getting through it, but it was definitely like, I don't know.
00:50:30
kj2294
i
00:50:32
polymune
I will say the sudden spike in difficulty yeah for the last bit there did seem less fleshed out than everything else. um Especially because they spent so much time like giving you more content to level that that kind of like was very like suddenly abrupt and I'm going okay this is this is this doesn't fit and I think they should have taken a little bit more time fleshing that out a little bit more extending it a little bit more um I also will say that tower was ass in both versions of the game I do not like the tower in either version it makes me
00:50:53
kj2294
and Yeah. There.
00:51:11
polymune
So I hate it. I hate that part. I hate it. I find it so boring and so tedious and stuff.
00:51:15
kj2294
Yeah.
00:51:18
polymune
I will say I wish they would have like they changed the music, which was great. um But I really wish they would have still had a little bit more changes to the battle theme more frequently and things like that.
00:51:30
kj2294
My 30 hours in, I was playing on mute.
00:51:33
polymune
Yeah the the music is still very limited and so it can be like you're hearing the thing over and over and over again and it gets kind of like sometimes I wasn't playing with sound either even though I really do like the soundtrack and I was really happy that they added new tracks they added a bunch of new tracks
00:51:37
kj2294
Yeah.
00:51:52
polymune
especially for boss fights but they only added like two tracks different and for regular fights and it was only that like they didn't but include the original at all which i was like you could have included the original and split it up to four like you could have had four different
00:52:04
kj2294
Okay. Interesting.
00:52:09
kj2294
Yeah, that is weird.
00:52:11
polymune
Yeah, I don't know why they did that. I think it was try to be more like, oh, you're on a different route. But I'm like, I would have liked it if they had the original music in there for a while, then the new one, then back to the original of the new segment. And then, you know, it would have broken it up a little bit more and been less like monotonous in this in the same thing. I will say, though, the Mara theme literally having you literally fighting Mara.
00:52:40
polymune
Being and anybody listening who are SFT or Persona fans knows what Mara is, and that's all I'm going to say. I'm not even going to describe it because I'm pretty sure you fought it too. um Anybody who fought Mara in this version, it had one of the coolest songs ever in the game. and I'm like, of course, Mara has the coolest song in the game, in my opinion.
00:53:05
polymune
out of everything, of course, of being a staple in the series. Ridiculous. And yeah, I took a video of it and I was just...
00:53:12
kj2294
Oh yeah, I know what that is.
00:53:17
kj2294
That is a very weird, very, very weird thing.
00:53:20
polymune
It's in...
00:53:23
polymune
it Yeah, it's in a it's reoccurring and it's now kind of just a thing in S&T and Persona games that they have to have Mara in there somewhere. Just this time, they not only made Mara, like,
00:53:36
polymune
30 feet tall in the in the in the game kind of thing where you run into him as a boss.
00:53:39
kj2294
Overworld, yeah.
00:53:42
polymune
They also gave him they one of the coolest tracks in the game and I was like, a freaking course of course you made this piece like this. And his weaknesses too.
00:53:51
kj2294
ah
00:53:52
polymune
I was like, of course you're weak too, Ice. Of course you're weak to ice. Anyway, so, um, yeah.
00:53:59
kj2294
Overall overall I do feel okay
00:54:00
polymune
Overall, what did you think being a new, okay. So I want everybody on the podcast to hear KJ hasn't played persona games. He played a little bit of SMT five, but not a whole lot of it.
00:54:13
polymune
Um, so he's like brand new into this. Uh, we did prepare him a little bit about like SMT, not having the greatest of stories, which is in my personal opinion, one of the weaker setbacks of this game.
00:54:24
polymune
However, ah what did you think for your first fully done SMT game? Like what did you think and what did you rate? What would what would you rate it?
00:54:34
kj2294
Okay, so I think this game would have been great if it was like 30 hours. I think the fact that I had to put 50 hours into it by like, I don't know, hour 35, I was like, all right, I'm done with this. I'm checked out. Like, I just want to be done. I just want to get get this over with. um
00:54:53
polymune
They did make it longer this time around for sure.
00:54:54
kj2294
i like I don't know. it wasn't It wasn't a situation where it was like overly painful. um Again, I was just i was bored by like because it was just it got repetitive, right?
00:55:06
kj2294
like It got repetitive and it was the case where like
00:55:06
polymune
Yeah, they did.
00:55:11
kj2294
By the time it it was it was just like, OK, go to new area, see demons. And then the demons that I was seeing were also the ones that I could fuse. So it's got to the point where I stopped using demons because I was only fusing when I got special demons, because otherwise I would just basically recruit the other demons. And so it it started to get like That part started to sort of like become a bit more lackluster and that was the part that was like really pushing me was the demon fusing and stuff like that.
00:55:43
kj2294
so i I do think that that really really took away from the game.
00:55:43
polymune
That's fair.
00:55:50
kj2294
um I don't think I would play another SMT. i think the I don't think this game was bad. I think it was average. um I think the main character death thing is a huge turn off. I don't think I'll ever play another game that has like, if the main character dies, it's game over. I don't, I think that mechanic outside of like, that's that's one of the worst like battle mechanics I think in in a game. Like main character dies, it's game over or like,
00:56:23
kj2294
MP death, like those things are right on par for me in terms of like what I think is is kind of rough. um Or I mean, the flip side is also like if one character dies, it's game over.
00:56:35
kj2294
That's also bad. ah of Unless it's like a tactics game. Tactics games make sense because you have like a Lord character or whatever. Like there's an objective, right? But in like a normal turn based RPG, I think that it's just really bad.
00:56:44
polymune
OK, yeah.
00:56:47
kj2294
If the main character dies, you can't. revive them. No, I think that's bad. um
00:56:52
polymune
Yeah, yeah, and they do that with SMT and Persona games, which is kind of.
00:56:56
kj2294
Yeah. And so for me, it's like the lack of a story and the combat getting. Really sort of repetitive after half the game, this game is like a solid seven for me. I don't think that it's I don't think it's it doesn't feel amazing. It doesn't feel necessarily bad like it's a It's a solid seven. I think the problem that I have is if I'm playing a game that's a seven, I'm okay with that. As long as it's not like 50 hours. A 50 hour seven feels bad. And I think that's sort of where i'm I'm at where it's like, if this was a seven and it was like, I don't know.
00:57:41
kj2294
15, 20 hours, I'd be singing this game's praises because like, it would have been like, yo, this was great. Like, this is a good time. It wasn't, it's not reinventing the wheel or not doing anything super crazy, but it doesn't wear out its welcome.
00:57:52
kj2294
I didn't get bored with it. Like I wouldn't have gotten bored with the game if it was like 20, 25 hours. But the fact that it was, the fact that I logged like 51 hours in the game, I'm just like, okay, snooze fest, I'm done.
00:57:58
polymune
That's for.
00:58:04
kj2294
So yeah, I'd say like a solid seven.
00:58:07
polymune
OK, that's higher than I thought you were going to do. And honestly, your criticism makes me think of so in the original game, it was closer to like the 40 hours. so I think I beat it in 40 hours, like 35, 40 hours. Like I beat it pretty quickly.
00:58:24
polymune
um
00:58:24
kj2294
Oh, you're crazy amount of time was because you were grinding, right? Because I thought you said you put like 90 hours.
00:58:27
polymune
Exactly. Yeah, I put a bunch of time into because of the grinding to get the fourth ending.
00:58:28
kj2294
in
00:58:32
polymune
Now with Vengeance, they kind of built a lot of that in there and now only gave you two endings and stuff like that and extended it out, which is really interesting to me because I think I don't think you would have been happy, like completely satisfied with either one because original was shorter, but the story was even less of anything.
00:58:32
kj2294
Yeah.
00:58:53
kj2294
yeah
00:58:53
polymune
like they added to the story in vengeance like so for there to be for you to feel like there was lack of story that that vengeance was the souped up story version and like the original so you would have had that but it would have been a shorter game um unless you tried to go for the fourth ending whereas with vengeance it's a longer game but they did they did make it feel like How do I put it? Like tedious, like you monotonous, because you're doing the same thing over and over again, the music not changing. A lot of things not changing kind of just makes it feel more dragged on. And for me, um I was happy because it had more story in it.
00:59:41
polymune
to do a lot of the extra stuff. And I was delighted by the end that I didn't need to do like the grinding that I did originally to get an ending. But at the same time, I did feel like it was almost too long.
00:59:53
kj2294
Mm hmm.
00:59:53
polymune
And I feel like they would have been better with a happy, like I think they would have been better with having it closer to the original time frame of gameplay as the OG, but with the more story. And I think yeah it might have been a higher rating for you. um And I think it might have been closer to an almost perfect game for me.
01:00:15
polymune
um But that said, like yeah, there was a lot of like monotonous portions of it. i i I enjoy SMT games because I've played Nocturne, I've played SMT5 original, I've played Persona 3, 4, 5, Royal, all that sort of stuff. So I like these kind of games and I like SMT because i don't like it's not an over-intensive plot line and it's not a crazy long game like Persona is.
01:00:43
polymune
um Persona is one heck of a 100-hour commitment and man, can I get that. But honestly, by the end of SMT5 engines, i was feeling I was feeling my persona bird burnout where I felt like it was just too long. I did think vengeance was too long.
Final Ratings and Series Characteristics
01:00:59
polymune
I was very appreciative they added more to the story and I found the story more interesting than the ah original, except for I liked the secret ending in the original better than either ending. I ended up looking up for this one. I thought the secret ending was cooler. um I like that you leveled up. I like all of the improvements and stuff. So i'm I'm much higher than KJ, but I'm not where I thought I would be because I was like an eight for the original game.
01:01:27
polymune
And that was like only 8.5 for the fourth ending, but then I knocked it back down to an eight in my mentality because of all the grinding I had to do. And I was so bored and so frustrated and I had so many hours in the game because of that grinding. And me and Dark both did that and we were both so exhausted because the ending was cool, but it didn't feel like it was worth the grind. Um, with this one, uh, I ended up close. No, I wasn't.
01:01:55
polymune
i I was still less hours than I was in the original, um but d I liked my Chaos ending and stuff like that, but yeah, I i would have been an 8 of the original and I would say this one for me um is an 8.5 close to a 9, but not quite because Of things kj said because it felt monotonous because they dragged it on a little too long a little bit longer than they needed For the added plot. They should have left the time down with the added plot. I think it would have been more enjoyable that way I did find the lack of music rotation
01:02:36
polymune
to be monotonous and like you I was not playing with sound sometimes like Enno would come downstairs and he's like are you playing your game? I'm like yeah and he's like why don't you have the sound on? I'm like I don't want to listen to it.
01:02:45
kj2294
ah Yeah.
01:02:46
polymune
I like I like muted it because i I didn't want to and then you know like at times I would turn it back on to see if there was a new track and I was pleasantly surprised that there were some for boss fights but like the regular music was just just the same over and over again so it was kind of like just like the original where I'm like okay this is this thing So yeah, I would say 8.5.
01:03:07
polymune
I wanted to give it a 9, but it just it just fell a little bit short. It was still better than the original, in my opinion.
01:03:13
kj2294
Hmm.
01:03:14
polymune
um And if nobody like if people like SMT games or Persona games, I do recommend this. um However, I will state, like I told KJ, SMT games, they don't do too much of the story.
01:03:26
polymune
They did better in the story this time around. I think this is one of the better stories in the SMT game to date. With vengeance, I recommend people getting vengeance if they do get it. um However,
01:03:39
polymune
Personally, I think there might be a new contender that's gonna go i can i kick kick out SMT and Persona.
01:03:44
kj2294
Maybe we'll see, we'll see.
01:03:47
polymune
We'll see. i've like I've got real high hopes for it. And yeah, I'm really hoping Metaphor metaphor is the sweet in-between that I've been desperately wanting because Persona's too long and SMT is like not enough story and then ended up being a little too long this time around.
01:04:06
polymune
And I'm like, I just want a nice in-between. You just want it in between but yeah, yeah, that's where I'm gonna I'm gonna sit and Yeah
01:04:15
kj2294
OK, makes sense. Yeah, I think I think it'll.
01:04:17
polymune
yeah
01:04:18
kj2294
Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. But yeah, I think that's pretty much I mean, that's what I expected. I expected you to enjoy the game. I expected me to.
01:04:29
polymune
I kind of figured you would enjoy it less.
01:04:29
kj2294
I was.
01:04:31
polymune
And like, i I knew, especially when I was getting towards the end and you were getting up there close to the end, I could like, I knew, I was like, Oh, he's, this is, this is monotonous.
01:04:42
polymune
I'm finding a monotonous and I'm like, I grinded in the original one. So I'm going like, ah yeah. So I knew you were going to be a lower score. It's not as low as I thought you were going to be. So that's cool.
01:04:53
polymune
um But i I wanted to be higher than I was, like I did all the math of my numbers and I wrote out my little sheet here and I ended up being lower than I thought I was going to be just because of like there's just, it's still, it was still a few things but I still enjoyed it and I liked my ending and I liked um the additional content and stuff like that so it was worth playing it again but
01:04:55
kj2294
I mean, it's not two delta.
01:05:17
polymune
um yeah ah Yeah, I'm looking forward to diving more into Metaphor and hope that it's kind of the nice in-between that I've been hoping for
Next Episode Preview: Star Ocean 4
01:05:26
polymune
between the two games. And it's exciting because KJ picked up Metaphor too.
01:05:30
polymune
ha ha But we'll see, we'll see.
01:05:31
kj2294
We'll see what happens. but yes so So next month's game is going to be Star Ocean 4. So I played about five minutes of this game back in 2009 on the Xbox 360.
01:05:39
polymune
Yeah, which...
01:05:45
kj2294
That's basically all I've played of it. So I know nothing about it. But I think we're both playing the definitive version. Or are you playing? Actually, I shouldn't.
01:05:52
polymune
i I got it on, I do have, so I have like, I have too many copies of Star Ocean 4 for somebody who hasn't played through it yet, but I have the Xbox 360 version and then the PS3 version and I was gonna play the PS3 version but then I ended up going for the Steam version because it was on sale and it's just easier for me to play the Steam deck.
01:06:10
kj2294
Yeah, as neith I have the same version. That's the version I'll be playing.
01:06:13
polymune
I don't have my PS3 hooked up right now, so it's just easier for me to play the Steam Deck, which I'm playing the Steam version, than the 360 or the PS3 version. However, I played five hours... like I actually found my old save file. I played five hours on the 360 back like when it first came out. I bought a 360 for the game, played like five hours of it, and that was it.
01:06:40
polymune
So I have no concept of it, but it's one of the few Star Ocean games I have not played all the way through and beaten yet.
01:06:40
kj2294
Yeah.
01:06:45
polymune
So it's going to be interesting. today Yeah, we'll see.
01:06:50
kj2294
Yeah, that's what we'll call it. No, it shouldn't be.
01:06:52
polymune
Yeah.
01:06:52
kj2294
It shouldn't be that bad. We've played some bad games this year or we've played. We've played two bad games this year, but.
01:06:58
polymune
We have played two bad games this year.
01:06:59
kj2294
If you want to hear which ones go watch all the episodes and you'll see which ones we.
01:07:00
polymune
i Yes, please go listen to our episodes.
01:07:03
kj2294
yeah yeah
01:07:04
polymune
Help support us. ah Hit the likes, hit the comments, all that sort of stuff.
01:07:05
kj2294
and was ah
01:07:08
polymune
It all helps. But if you want to hear which ones we found, we played bad. But yeah, i' i'm i'm op to I'm cautiously optimistic, but we'll we'll see how it goes.
01:07:19
polymune
And I'm excited for November. And at the end of November, we'll be we'll be back to our live shows on YouTube.
01:07:25
kj2294
And we'll also um we also have a trailer that will be coming out at some point. probably We'll probably show it on the YouTube channel. also We might also post it on YouTube, but yeah, that'll be good.
01:07:37
polymune
Yeah, I think that'd be a good idea, like early December or something.
01:07:40
kj2294
Yeah.
01:07:41
polymune
Yeah, because it's going to highlight our next ah podcast games for the next year.
01:07:41
kj2294
So yeah, I think we're...
01:07:45
polymune
So it's going to be cool.
01:07:46
kj2294
Exactly. So I think that's just about it. I think we can wrap up.
01:07:49
polymune
Yeah. Yeah, we absolutely can.
01:07:51
kj2294
Awesome, so thank you everybody for listening. um I hope you guys enjoyed the episode.
01:07:53
polymune
And.
01:07:56
polymune
Hope you stuck around and haven't abandoned us for our two recent reviews.
01:08:05
kj2294
It's fine, it's fine, it's not that bad.
01:08:08
polymune
If they didn't cancel us over the Golden Zone one, they're not going to cancel us over this one.
01:08:14
kj2294
Yeah, probably not. You're probably right. That's, that's probably a, that is probably a fair assumption that if we, if we got through, if we got through the golden sun one week, we will get through this one. So, all right, everybody. Well, thanks again for watching and we'll catch y'all for the November episode.
01:08:31
polymune
Yeah, thanks again guys for listening. Appreciate it the support. See you next time.
01:08:36
kj2294
Bye.
01:08:37
polymune
Bye.