Transcript
kj2294: All right, so we are here for a very, very controversial um episode of Turn Based Tangents, because I think a lot of people have been waiting for this one, because this is a game that gets very often um criticized.
kj2294: um So I am KJ, and I'm here with Polly.
polymune: Yeah, I guess that's the best. Hello.
kj2294: There you go. I was like, say something. So, yeah, this is...
polymune: I forget how to do this.
kj2294: It's all good. This is our episode for Golden Sun Dark Dawn, um the third game in the Golden Sun. I guess we can call it a trilogy, kind of, even though they were apparently supposed to have more than just three games.
polymune: she Yep.
kj2294: But yeah, so that is that is.
polymune: Trilogy plus mark?
kj2294: I mean, yeah, that it's.
polymune: Yep.
kj2294: It's a weird one. It's definitely a weird one. And I think a lot of people really dislike this game. I think that's a lot of people dislike it.
polymune: Yeah, that's the the synopsis I've gotten.
kj2294: Yeah, i I mean, I think people were expecting Golden Sun 1 and Golden Sun 2, and I think they got something that was a more modern take on them.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: I mean, considering the game came out, I think close to, I'd have to fact check it, but I think it's close to like 10 years later, right?
polymune: Yeah, because it's on the DS, right?
kj2294: Like golden sun, dark dawn. Yeah, it came out maybe not exactly 10 years later, but very close to it. I mean, golden sun, golden sun.
polymune: It came out in 2010, so...
kj2294: Yeah, golden sun one came out in 2001. It came out and I think it's, I think golden sun one came out August 4th of 2001. And it looks like this came out in October of 20, uh, of 2010.
kj2294: So like, yeah, nine years.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: So that's a, that's a big deal.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: That's a big gap. I think the original golden sons, kind of like a, kind of like a Valkyrie Elysium to a Valkyrie profile.
polymune: That is ah especially for a i like a sequel to the the original two games too, right? So like it would be different if it was like a brand new kind of in the world, but not taking place sort of idea.
polymune: And like,
polymune: Cut yeah exactly so the gap could feel a little bit less jarring but yeah it's literally a sequel to the first two games so um it coming out like nine years later and then being like
kj2294: Okay.
polymune: I want to say like a different ah slightly different style. like It tries to pay homage to the original, but it's also like in the DS and trying to do 3D.
kj2294: I was going to say, it's very DS. Yeah. It's very DS.
polymune: Yeah, it's a very DS game.
kj2294: Yep.
polymune: You're right. Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
kj2294: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was like the first thing that was like the first thing I wrote in my notes when I was playing it and taking notes. It was like, this is very much a DS game. It feels like a DS game.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: It looks like a like everything about it. it's like yeah It has the golden sun but and the Golden Sun makeup, and it has the Golden Sun sort of...
kj2294: It feels very much like a Golden Sun game, but it for sure is like, you can tell this was made with... ah It wasn't made... with the intention of like, oh, this was supposed to be on the GBA. And all of a sudden it was actually made for the DS. No, this was definitely a DS game through and through. And it utilizes the but controls really well. Like it utilizes the touchscreen for all of the different like synergy and everything really well, in my opinion.
polymune: Yeah, I actually found the gameplay really fluid um and it's very pays homage to the GBA, which I found like the original two Golden Sun games are kind of, if you think back to Game Boy Advance games, they they're kind of one of the more top -tier looking Game Boy Advance games, for sure.
kj2294: ah yeah
polymune: And then this ah golden set of Dark Dawn is definitely more like on par with other DS games.
kj2294: Oh yeah.
polymune: It's not like a top -tier DS game, but what I did really like is the utilization of the touchscreen and then like just the mechanics and stuff like where you could like highlight parts of the story and learn more about it and it would just...
kj2294: Yo, that was so cool.
polymune: ah
kj2294: Yes.
polymune: Yeah, and it appeared on like the other screen, like the upper screen, which was so awesome because it's like I I mean, I played Golden Sun the first two games like a couple of years ago.
kj2294: Yes.
kj2294: Yep.
polymune: And so it was a nice little refresher of like, oh, yeah, that's what happened. And oh, yeah, that's that guy's name and things like that.
kj2294: pretty much any any like proper noun you could basically just like click on, whether it was story related in this game or story related in the previous Golden Suns, and you could basically click on it and then it would give you, yeah, like and basically the encyclopedia of what, yeah, that was dope.
polymune: Yeah, which was so cool. And it was a nice little touch for something that came out nine years after the first two games, because I feel like one, they were kind of like, well, they were trying to be, I think they were trying to be like, ah more open to having people kind of jump into the franchise without having played the so the first two games.
kj2294: Hmm?
polymune: even though it is is a direct sequel, they gave you the option, like that ability to like ah learn about the other characters and what happened before and all this other stuff as like an optional thing that you could do.
kj2294: That makes sense, yeah.
polymune: Or if you were veterans from the first two games and you knew them very well, you could just be like, Oh yeah, I don't need those like little notes or anything like that. I'm good. And it was a feature that wasn't like thrown in your face.
kj2294: yeah and i mean
polymune: It was in a it was optional.
kj2294: Exactly. And I think one of the things is when you have a game. So this game took place 30 years after the the events of the second game. Right.
polymune: Yeah, yeah.
kj2294: and So like when you have when you have a game that has that big of a time skip. You can kind of ah use it as an entry point for people to come into the series. And I think that's, like you said, I think you nailed that.
kj2294: I think that's what they were going for. I think they still kept a lot of the same charm with all of the different gin, which we can get a little bit further into later. um The music, like the music was very, I mean, the the music was very Golden Sun.
polymune: was very golden sun.
kj2294: Sakuraba, again, absolutely nailed it. Like, I don't even think we have to touch on that because it was just a given.
polymune: Yeah. No, he'd like anything he touches is generally gold for turns of soundtracks
kj2294: Oh, yeah, but I think they I think they did a really good job in terms of kind of keeping this feeling like a Golden Sun game, even even like, I don't know, in the beginning, it was like, OK, this feels this feels much more like the adventure that like you went on in the beginning with.
kj2294: the the Isaac group. And then later on in the game, I mean, there was more like backtracking and like going into these these different dungeons. And that felt a lot more like the quest in Golden Sun 2.
polymune: Yes.
kj2294: And so I think they they really kind of nailed that and hammered that home really well.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: And so, yeah, I mean, I think I think that was a. This feels like a Golden Sun game. This was definitely a Golden Sun game, and I i really, really enjoyed that part of it.
polymune: And going into this game, I, especially with the controversy and stuff leading up, like nobody really gave us like super in depth, but they were, it was very much a, a wide range of like people didn't like it. People pretended this wasn't like a golden sun game. And honestly, I was expecting something that was just way out in left field, like way out left field, like, yeah, I would have soccer, rubber's music, but like, you know, it'd be just something super different, but honestly,
polymune: It feels like a sequel to the first two games and a level -up sequel in terms of the device it's using.
kj2294: Yeah, I get that.
polymune: where I felt like the first two games did such a great job at utilizing like the Game Boy Advance to the max of a capability. That's why it was split into two games.
kj2294: yeah
polymune: And I actually really like how Golden Sun Dark Dawn on the DS really feels like a well put together DS game as well as feeling like a Golden Sun game.
polymune: So I i was very pleasantly surprised and I was like, Oh, yeah, you know what? I can dig this. i like you know Doing the little puzzles again, you know trying to mind read logs.
polymune: like you know if it had it It had all the stuff that I enjoyed.
kj2294: Oh, my goodness.
polymune: And you're very like you're so true with the Golden Sun 1 and 2. This game definitely felt like it was 1 and 2 combined the way it set the pacing.
polymune: The way it set the pacing and the way it like halfway through the game, it very much felt like 2.
kj2294: and
polymune: and kind of like the different characters and stuff like that. And then when you get the max party, it felt like at the end of two and and so on and so forth. So like, yeah, I actually was like, oh, this is basically the first two games, like what it was supposed to be back then, but a sequel.
kj2294: And I think that that actually kind of that speaks to I think with this game, they wanted it as an entry point, but they were trying not to take too many chances. And I think that's something that I think a lot of people critiqued it about um specifically like.
polymune: Yeah.
polymune: But to me, I can understand them being a little bit more hesitant because we've seen time and time again, we've both have played these kind of games where you see something that's supposed to be a sequel or in a line of games where it's just way out in left field or it took a huge risk and it failed and
kj2294: Hmm.
polymune: You know, this was kind of the era of timing where things were like slipping and games tried to take a leap and they fail.
kj2294: yeah
polymune: So I i don't actually mind it. And I realized it was very criticized for this, but I don't actually mind that it didn't go two leaps and bounds in a different direction because I really liked the first two games.
polymune: So playing this, it felt like the first two games for me and it like I didn't need it to reinvent the wheel, if that makes sense.
kj2294: Yeah, I get that. And I think it was definitely the case where I will say there were some things where they were like, they tried real hard to have like comic relief. And sometimes they were funny. Sometimes they weren't like, I know they really like with Garrett's son, they really, they really hammered home a lot of the like Garrett type moments from the first game and the second game with him.
polymune: Yeah. Yep,
polymune: yep they did.
kj2294: So I definitely think that like in that regard, Again, they were they were playing on what they already did and I didn't necessarily need them to take too many chances.
kj2294: like For me, Golden Sun's already a fantastic game. like More Golden Sun and being able to kind of play around with the different, the advanced, I mean, when I say advanced, I mean very advanced, Jhin combat system, like having all different, having...
polymune: Oh yeah.
kj2294: all the different classes and all of that stuff like that was that was fantastic and having more gin and everything like that was that was great to have and be able to kind of like do a bunch of stuff with and really kind of dive in in depth.
kj2294: So I think.
polymune: Yeah, I'm totally in agreement with you on that one. like i i'm like I felt the same way.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: i'm like I didn't need it to be something. I thought it was going to be something way out in the field. It wasn't. And like they definitely, basically every character like linking up, like Matthew felt very much like an Isaac.
polymune: Tyrell very much felt like Garrett. like you know they they And even the, I don't know how to pronounce his name, it's ah e Elio? eo
kj2294: Oh, yeah, and the other fire.
polymune: you Yeah, the other Fire one, um having them connected to like a character from the original game, um the like the the pirate the pirate guy's son or whatever, ah having those like little itty bitty connections to the original game and like those little easter eggs and stuff of the characters, like they all felt like they had their...
kj2294: The fire depth, yeah.
kj2294: Yeah, well, I mean.
polymune: their like they but They felt like, again, they didn't take any leaps too crazy with the personalities, but I was okay with that. like It was it it was kind of chart as goofy at times. and like Yeah, sometimes I was rolling my eyes because I was like, okay, you're just being stupid. But um at other times, it's just like, yeah, this just felt like I was playing a Golden Sun game, which is kind of big when it comes to these sequels and these like you're like, oh, I don't know what to expect. Is it going to be like the old game? Is it going to be different? like
polymune: That sort of stuff. But yeah, and then they had more gin and then they had more like expanses on the mechanic system, which to me, it felt like, oh, we couldn't do this in the Game Boy Advance because we what ran out of like space, more or less.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: um Let's like take these ideas and put it in our sequel game. it It definitely felt like Like they really expanded on it and it made it more like I was experimenting with it. We're with Golden Sun 1 and 2. I should have, but I kind of was streaming it and I didn't end up like experimenting too much. But this game, it kind of teaches you to write off the bat and with their little kind of mini tutorials. And then I just found I was like playing around with it like throughout the entire game. I was throwing gin on different characters and setting the different up and seeing what could be
polymune: ah stronger or weaker in terms of like on which character and like oh and of course I mean we had our gin hunting which I loved in the original two games like I had to get every gin in the game in the first two games and this one was no thing I did have to read a guide for some of them because some of them are like some really obscure places
kj2294: Yeah, they do put them in obscure places. Yeah, I also, I use the guide as well. um
polymune: Yeah, I only used a guide for the gym. I didn't need a guide for anything else. ah They do a ah pretty good job in this one on explaining where you need to go and where you need to pack track.
kj2294: yeah It's more modern, so there's like there is like indicators and things like that. They're a lot easier to kind of see.
polymune: Yeah.
polymune: It's definitely set up for like also kids to get into this game where they don't have to do too much like ah like the there there's so many tutorials and so many like indicators and stuff like that.
polymune: It definitely felt like they were trying to reach a new audience especially to kids um because I felt like
kj2294: Yeah, I do think they were trying to, like they were definitely trying to make sure they called back. Like you be brought up a good point where it's like six of the party members have ties, six of the eight party members have ties to previous characters. Because obviously you have the children of the main forecast from the first game. And then you have the son of the pirate Riggs. And then they don't necessarily confirm it but it's very clear that the like underwater Prince, ah or other water like Prince, which this is a spoiler for anybody that is gonna play this game, um it's very clear that that's Alex's son.
polymune: Yes, yeah.
kj2294: So, I mean, they make it very, very clear that like,
polymune: They're very clipping, but like they don't come out and like could be like, yeah, thing. And just like, which I thought this was really cool. Just like the first game, ah first couple of games, you had like Alex behind the scenes again, like just fucking shit up again, which is
kj2294: Oh yeah, Alex is always behind the scenes. Yeah. And and that was the thing. It wasn't until Craydon was, it wasn't until you were around Craydon where he was like, wait, is that who I think it is?
kj2294: And it was like, it was just a never ending, like nonstop, like, is this who it who is this who I think it is? Like through the entire game. And obviously like, it was clear for anybody that's played Golden The Sun, like that's Alex.
kj2294: Like, you know, and I think
polymune: Yep.
kj2294: that is That is something that I know quite a few people are actually not a big fan of, and that's because like because of all of that. I think his role of behind the scenes and everything means that you still don't get any kind of closures to like what truly is happening, what his true plan is, because he feels like the, he feels like the villain, right?
kj2294: Like he feels like he is the primary villain.
polymune: Yep.
kj2294: And going into this game, I thought like, okay, this is going to be a game about all of their children because I had i hadd played at least that much of it. But I thought that Alex was going to be like the final boss or he was going to be, it was going to, I thought we we're going to get some closure.
polymune: I thought that too. Yeah. Especially like halfway through it.
kj2294: We're going to get some closure on that story.
polymune: Yeah, I thought like halfway through it, I was really starting to like, okay, they're they're like thrown in Alex there. They're bringing in his son, like, okay, it's going to be a showdown between like father and son kind of idea. And you're going to finally unravel this plot that had been happening since the first game in the GBA, where Alex just seems to be behind the scenes, just messing things up, like basically influencing people, po poking them in different directions.
polymune: Um, never being like the true one you fight, but the one where you're just like, I kind of want to fight you. Like, like you've been messing things up and it's the exact same in this game as the first two games.
kj2294: Hmm.
polymune: But then that was one of the, one of the things that really annoyed me is that there was no closure to that. And I think with this game, they set it up again, where it feels like it was meant to be two games.
polymune: instead of just one, and they never make the fourth game. Like, we don't have a fourth Golden Sun game.
kj2294: Yep, we get a...
kj2294: And that's that's honestly, I think, a lot of people's biggest problem is, like, the game ends on a cliffhanger.
polymune: ah
kj2294: The game ends on a... Like, I literally... The last bullet in my notes was, cliffhanger, we need more on Alex and a High Emperor. Like, that is literally it.
polymune: Yep.
kj2294: like
polymune: I had the same thing. I had the same thing with Alex being like, I had theories. I had like written out theories of like what it could be the next one or whatever. And I thought we were going to get a conclusion with this.
polymune: It just oh it just felt like we were going to get it and then we get to the end and it wasn't.
kj2294: Like...
polymune: And I just kind of left there being like, Oh, like I felt like I was disappointed because I know there's not another one. I know that already. I knew this was the last one.
kj2294: Mm hmm.
polymune: So it just felt like I'm like, Oh, I really want, I want a conclusion. I want, it's like having golden sun one without two in terms of the, the overarching plot.
polymune: Like I feel like golden, what sun one could stand on its own in terms of a lot of things, but it has that in behind plot that kind of starts unraveling into well, like, That's how this one feels. like i i want to I want more, and there is no more. And it was frustrating because I'm like, I want to know what Alex's deal is. What his end goal in this thing? He just seems like he's poking the bear in so many scenarios from all three games, and then you don't get a reason.
polymune: like at all, cause there's no conclusion with him. And I'm just like, it was driving me mad cause like I had these theories and like it's still open. It's open ended, which I feel like I think they should have gone in a different direction. Like I realized they were leaving it open and maybe they didn't get funding or this game did do very well. So they couldn't do the fourth game, but I think they should have concluded it. And then if it did really well, then think about something.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: at that point. like I just feel like they should have concluded the Golden Sun. like This could have been the conclusion to all three games like wrapping itself up, more or less.
polymune: wrapping everything up, wrapping the stuff up with Alex, ah having like, I don't even care that there's the big time skip of like 30 years.
kj2294: I agree.
polymune: That's totally fine. Especially when you start getting into the plot and like with the signer G vortexes and like the, the altering and stuff. Cause like, you mean created and still alive, you know, things like that.
kj2294: Yeah, and I think that that's a it's like that's a, they did explain that.
polymune: So like,
kj2294: like The explanation of that was all through the fact that they, everything that happened in the first two games, like that's why Glitch Cradon hasn't aged and stuff like that.
polymune: Mm -hmm.
polymune: Which is...
polymune: Exactly. Yeah. So it like ties in very well to the first two and then it kind of keeps going. Like it would have been so nice if this was like the end, like it was a conclusion. And I think, I think it would have left a better taste in a lot of people's mouths if it truly was the conclusion. Like we got to figure out what the heck Alex's deal is. And honestly, like you said, fight him, like him being the end boss to all three games.
polymune: would would have made big sense because he just seemed to, he seems to be the puppet master kind of thing behind the curtain.
kj2294: Yeah, pretty much.
polymune: So it was very disappointing that not only do you not get a conclusion with like what the heck's going on with him, you don't get a conclusion at all. It leaves off being like until next time kind of idea.
polymune: And you're just like, But there is this came out in 2010 and we're in 2024 and there's And I think, I wanna say that ah along with the simplified simplification of the game to be open to more wider audiences, I think is why a lot of people were upset with this game.
polymune: Because it leaves off in a...
kj2294: I mean the game was too easy that's that's like it was way too easy I considered I know there's like There's like
polymune: Yeah, oh yeah, it was... and Did you use items the whole game? I don't know if you used items, but I never used items.
kj2294: Or barely. there's like I think there's um there's like four like post -game dungeons. I thought about doing them, but I was just like, eh. So you can fight like multiple multiple bosses from the second game.
kj2294: So like Star Magician, you can fight Star Magician again. Delahan, you can fight Delahan again.
polymune: Oh, I didn't do any of that.
kj2294: Yeah, so there' is there's like a bunch of different things. there's like there's I think there's four total like extra ah extra bosses, like final like but they're all to get summons.
kj2294: I don't know. I didn't really care too much about the summons.
polymune: Oh.
kj2294: like I used some of them, but yeah, it's one of those things where you You get a bunch of extra like broken summons, but i didn't really I didn't see the point of extending the game any longer by doing that, so I didn't.
polymune: That make.
kj2294: And honestly, that's kind of just where I was. I was like, this is... The game was solid, but I didn't feel like I had to go and do all of the extra stuff.
polymune: Yeah and like Golden Sun 1 and 2 had a pretty good set of like challenges in it and then you like you really had to utilize the jinn and building them and having them on different characters and stuff and using summons and stuff to beat the secret bosses in those games but you like they kind of wrap things up at the end of the second game. Like the first and the second game feel like, you know, games where you want to do the extra content, I guess is what I'm saying. And so, you know, I, I did the extra content of the first game and then I tried, to I tried to beat the, the one big boss at the end of the second game, the special super boss or whatever.
polymune: I did everything except for being able to beat that one. And that one was definitely a tried and true. You really need to have a master of the Djinn and you have to have certain characters built a certain way. But this game, it was so easy. I don't remember using items hardly at all.
polymune: Uh, it basically tells you who who to set up with what, although I experimented a lot. And then, yeah, I didn't use summons again, just like the first two games. i I didn't use summons.
polymune: I didn't like need a guide except for to find the gin. And so when I beat the game, I kind of had in the back of my mind, maybe there was like a super boss, like the first two, but because of the cliffhanger and because of how easy the game was, I'm like, well, it's not going to be a challenge.
polymune: So what's the point?
kj2294: ah From the sounds of it, it is a challenge, but I think
polymune: You know? Oh, so I had the complete like I thought it was going to be like just super easy like the rest of the game.
kj2294: No, it does sound like it is a challenge. Now, that said, like it sounds like it has double... I'm looking at the guide right now, it has like double the HP of... The true final boss has double the HP of the final boss and does a bunch of absolute absolute nonsense.
polymune: Oh, okay OK.
kj2294: It's very similar to the absolute nonsense he does in the first in the second game, just worse.
polymune: OK.
kj2294: But I think... The thing for me was because it was so easy, like I think I game overed once and it was the in very, very early on in the game when you didn't really have many gin.
kj2294: My biggest thing is I don't think this game was actually meant for you to get all of the gin. in the play through, like that's what it feels like.
kj2294: It felt like it wasn't necessarily, because me having all of the gin, I felt like I was just able to walk through the game without a problem.
polymune: Hmm.
kj2294: like And for me, I was like, I'm never, the chances are I'm not playing this again. So I'm gonna try to get all of the gin. That way, if I do wanna go back and do all of the extra stuff or do any extra stuff, I already have a save file with all of the gin and I can just do that, right?
kj2294: Because obviously doing the extra stuff, you're gonna need the gin.
polymune: True.
kj2294: But yeah, I.
polymune: And we know from the first two games that we needed all the gin to unlock, unlock the secret boss, right? So knowing that in the back of our minds coming in from the first two games, I had the same mindset of like, I need to get all the gin and maybe you're right.
kj2294: Yeah,
polymune: Maybe because doing that and following a guide to get all the gin makes you too strong and makes the game easy.
kj2294: yeah I definitely felt too strong after doing that.
polymune: Hmm. You know, I agree. And honestly, I think you're right. I think they ah hoped you'd go through the game and then you'd go through a game the second time to get them all. But to me, when you have a game that leaves off on such a heavy cliffhanger and then you never have a sequel, like And then the game like maybe would have been a little bit more challenging if you didn't have them all, but it's still, I still think it would have been easy that like, I don't know. It just, just feels like there's like, ah like you don't need to, you don't feel the drive to like you did in the first two games.
polymune: Like i I was driven to like, Oh yeah, let's go challenge these secret bosses. This is going to be fun. Like I, I was driven to in the first two games, but I like, you're the one who just told me on this podcast that that there's secret bosses that I didn't even know.
polymune: Cause I only looked up the guide for the gym and I was it.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: And then I beat the game and I found the, the, the end boss and everything was just kind of. easy maybe because I did have all the gin but like I didn't like I didn't need to do it multiple times I did it the first time and and then it was like the big heavy cliffhanger of like they're gonna be more and then there's never more and it's just like Oh, sad face.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: but like And sad thing is, is like despite being like super easy, I found it super easy. um I actually really had fun finding all the gin. I had fun going through the game and getting the plot and the characters and the different things.
kj2294: yeah no
polymune: I thought some parts were more wordy than needed to be, but I get it. it's i mean There's parts in Golden Sun 2 that I found extremely wordy. So again, i feel I feel like they were just like really trying to stay within the lanes of Golden Sun as the first two to not go too far outside of it.
polymune: Also, I will say as a storyline thing, I knew it was going to happen, but I was so sad because I wanted Isaac and Mia to get together.
kj2294: Yeah, I understand.
polymune: So sad. I was so sad.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: And I knew going in, be I was going to be disappointed. I knew, but like, I was like extra disappointed because I don't like Jenna.
kj2294: Yeah.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: I didn't like Jenna at all so it was so sad and Mia was just such a badass at the the first two games and like I like her so much as a character and uh and you get like her like her two kids or whatever um um or one of her one of her kids yeah
kj2294: as You get one of her kids and and her nephew.
polymune: Yes. Yeah, that's it. And so, like, I i was soothing, but I was also very sad because I was like, oh, ah my ship did not happen.
polymune: And it's a canon game, so I can't even be like, it doesn't exist. But. Yeah, I.
polymune: It was.
kj2294: We're not nephew, cousin, cousin.
polymune: I think I think maybe I shouldn't have gone all the gin, maybe yeah maybe I shouldn't have gotten all the gin and followed a guide for that.
kj2294: It would have been, it would have definitely been more difficult if you hadn't. I like, that's my thinking, but honestly, like, I don't know.
polymune: Mm -hmm still It was super fun to have them all like I I had so much fun like building my party and doing different stuff I think I ended up beating the game in my 40s level 40s or something
kj2294: I think it was worth it. I think it's worth having it. It's worth having the, the, it's worth having the, all of the gin. Yeah.
kj2294: Yeah. I was also, I was like low level forties, I think as well.
polymune: And that's also what made me feel like, OK, I can only be halfway through the game, right? Like when I was in my 40s and stuff like that, I'm like, OK, we're going to get some plot opening and we're going to go get thing.
polymune: And then when it leaves off at a cliffhanger, it definitely feels like, oh, we were going to start the game at probably in the 40s and go from there to get to like level 99 or something like that.
kj2294: yeah
polymune: And it just never happened. And I. Do you know why they never got a fourth one? Like, do you did it just because it didn't do very well?
kj2294: I have no idea.
polymune: Because I know it only sold like 44000 copies or something.
kj2294: I don't think the game sold well. I really don't.
polymune: Yeah. Yeah. looking Looking at the numbers, it looks like the the the game was really the game has sold 80000 copies in Japan.
polymune: That seems really low for a DS game.
kj2294: Yeah. i mean
polymune: Oof.
kj2294: I don't know. I don't know how much it sold, but also like Camelot has been pushed to.
kj2294: Camelot has been pushed to ah basically just sell or just make.
kj2294: Mario sports games at this point.
polymune: Oh, right.
kj2294: Yeah, so the forty six thousand was like in the first week or whatever, but. um Yeah, I'm seeing something that says in general, it sold like 200 ,000 units or something like that.
polymune: In total, that's that still doesn't seem like very much now.
kj2294: Like it's not, it didn't sell well. Like this game did not, did not sell well at all.
polymune: Which is unfortunate because like, it yeah.
kj2294: It's not a bad game. It's actually like, that's the thing. And I think a lot of people, so a lot of people give this game crap and here's where the hot take is gonna come in. I said I had something spicy and I do.
polymune: Yeah, here we go.
kj2294: This is a better game than Golden Sun The Lost Age.
kj2294: I think this is a better game than Golden Sun the Lost Age. I think Golden Sun the Lost Age, while it's the beginning, the first half of Golden Sun the Lost Age is painful. There is so much backtracking. There is so many obtuse dungeons for no reason. And this game, I just like,
kj2294: That's honestly, like, I want to go back. I have never beaten Dullahan in Golden Sun the Lost Age. I want to go back and do that, but I really, really do not want to play the first half, like, up through the freaking Jupiter lighthouse.
kj2294: I don't want to touch that game at all. And so, like, it's so painful to go through the first half of Golden Sun the Lost Age, like,
polymune: fair
kj2294: Golden Sun the Lost Age does everything that Golden Sun 1 does a bit better, but also does the things that are like kind of annoying with Golden Sun, it does significantly worse.
polymune: Mm -hmm.
kj2294: It's just like, it is Golden Sun, the first Golden Sun, just heightened so much on both the positive and negative sides which honestly just for me leaves it as like a very sort of like average game, right?
polymune: Tron out.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: I still love the game, but I yeah, I
polymune: On.
kj2294: It's really a struggle. And for me, Golden Sun Dark Dawn, while it did, it's cheesy and it's a lot easier and all these things. I think it was much more of a well paced and like quality and adventure.
polymune: Yeah, they the pacing was well done, like really well done. i will I will give it that for sure. And honestly, I thought I was going to be the controversial one and this in this podcast episode because Golden Sun, The Lost Age, almost lost me on stream. And like I had to push myself. And you know I was also streaming it, so it's like, okay, it may might have felt like worse than that. But yeah, the first half of the game is really drawn out, really boring. You're playing the cast that you don't really want to play as.
polymune: And like it's really tough to get through it like once it gets about halfway it hit and hit it's hard and it goes and I loved all the twists and turns of the plot and I love like that afterwards I'm glad I stuck it out but it was really hard to stick it out I didn't feel that ever playing this game.
polymune: um Dark Dawn, I thought the pacing was done really well. The story storyline was good. The characters were good. like I get that there's parts of it that way I feel like were more goofy towards a younger audience than I, 36, playing this game. But um I could appreciate that and not look at it as a criticism because, again, you know it it was trying to be more well -rounded to appeal to anybody who wants to try it. And so, you know what? like Thinking about it and how difficult Lost Age was for me to get through and how long it took to get you good, I would say Dark Dawn does so much better
polymune: in almost every aspect of that despite it being easy and again I think we can both agree that the easiness might have been because we went after all the Jhin and had a guide to do it where it's another one of those games where it meant for you not to necessarily have the guide and like to play through it twice or buy the guide after you like the game or something like that and then go back and get it.
kj2294: Yeah, I can definitely see that.
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: um
kj2294: It wasn't, it's not, the expectation was not that you would get all of them on the first place.
polymune: Exactly. Yeah. So it made, so we ended up being powerhouses throughout it. So it ends up like we're blowing through it a lot quicker. Cause I, I was, you know, it was like a few nights and then suddenly I'm like level 30 and I'm like, what?
kj2294: Yeah.
polymune: You know, cause it was.
kj2294: And I think, I think another thing that I noticed that they did was the gin like refresh rate, the set to standard, like the the refresh rate was a lot faster. So that was another thing where it was like, Oh, that made things a lot easier.
polymune: Yes. Yeah, definitely.
kj2294: Cause it's like, if I'm using gin, then like they're reef, they're, they're becoming more available a lot faster. So yeah, I think.
polymune: And the enemies weren't as, like, they weren't tough enough to need that to be faster, if that makes sense.
kj2294: yeah
polymune: But yeah, they were definitely, at the refresh rate for the gym were definitely faster than the first first two games for sure. um
kj2294: Yeah. No, I honestly, I think this was. So this I think this game is a perfect example of why I don't want like a Golden Sun remake, but also I think this game is sort of it it felt like it was sort of.
kj2294: close to what I would have expected from, this is what I would have expected kind of from like a Golden Sun remake. Like this is how I would feel Golden Sun 1 would feel if it was remade in modern times. Like in terms of how easy things are and sort of all of the like indicators of like this is where to go and all of this. And honestly, I think the pacing is much more reminiscent of Golden Sun 1 than it is of Golden Sun the Lost Age.
kj2294: And honestly, i I appreciated that. I can appreciate when there's like a, I mean, it's like a 25, 20, 25 hour game and the pacing is good and it doesn't overstay its welcome or anything like that.
polymune: Yeah.
polymune: Yeah, it didn't feel like it, like overdrawn at parts.
kj2294: Yeah, exactly.
polymune: Like it was wordy at some parts, but it wasn't like overdrawn out. And honestly, if they, if they remade golden, someone into in the style of this, cause I really liked the style of this game and they could put it on the 3DS or whatever, or the switch, whatever, and like it'd be in that same style and everything, but like fix the pacing issues of two, um, you know, have that like streamlined and everything.
polymune: Maybe two would have been easier on me. If it had the fixes that Darkdawn did, like it I think I would have liked to a lot more if it was done like this, than how it ended up being.
polymune: like like i feel like One and Dark Dawn were definitely done better. Pacing done better. um I felt like I was more into it.
polymune: And it wasn't overly long. it didn't It wasn't an overly long game where it felt like it overstayed its welcome. Where sometimes I feel like with RPGs, they like try to fill it with a lot of filler.
kj2294: Agreed.
polymune: And then it gets drawn out for a lot, um like the Tales series I find does, where it's obnoxiously longer than it needs to be.
kj2294: Oh, yeah.
polymune: It didn't need to be that long where dark dawn feels like a perfectly like perfectly paced perfectly like saw like 25 26 hour game um Golden sun being I think a little bit more than that I think if the lost age would have been more like dark dawn I think I would have been more into it and or if they ever did like remaster or whatever I would hope they would look at dark dawn as being a positive of what they should fix The Lost Age to be. But yeah, I almost don't want remakes. I want to know what happens. Give me the fourth. Like, I know they'll never do it, but I want to know what happens and give me the fourth game in the final conclusion of all this.
polymune: I don't want remakes. I want a new game that tells me what the heck is Alex doing. Like, deal? Like, why is he doing the things that he's doing? Like, it's never explained. And like, um that's what I want. I don't want f freaking remakes. I want Golden Sun 4.
polymune: And that's how I felt at the end of this, which, like, I really, like, I feel bad saying this because I know there's a lot of our community members are going to be listening to this and they're going to throw hands at me, but I really like this game.
kj2294: okay i
kj2294: No, we're gonna get canceled. I was just about to say, and so that we, for anybody that is still listening at this point or sorry,
polymune: I like the scheme!
polymune: Beastone is going to be angry emailing us. You know what? We're going to get the official like like resignation of Beastone as our friend. He's just going to leave.
kj2294: yeah I feel like I feel like a lot of people are going to be calling for ah us to get canceled, but we can we can wrap this up before we dig ourselves too much of a hole.
polymune: yeah
kj2294: So overall, like what did you think?
polymune: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
kj2294: Overall, what did you think?
polymune: Honestly, I would score it higher than the Lost Age. ah So when I played Golden Sun, I thought Golden Sun was a 9. I thought Lost Age was like an 8. I would put this in between. I would put it at 8 .5.
polymune: I don't want to fault it for not getting its fourth game, because again, that's not on the studio. That's ah like that's on like the company as a whole, not funding the fourth game. So I didn't want to as much as it was a huge disappointment was a close to anger that did piss me off like there were so few things in this game that actively made me upset that I would probably give it very close to what I felt Golden Sun was which Golden Sun for me was like a 9 9 .5 I would give this game probably an 8 .5 like I really enjoyed it Mechanically was a lot of fun
kj2294: and
kj2294: Okay, I'm not gonna go that far. you're you're saying You're saying some crazy things now, Paul. We gotta chill out with that. We gotta take a step back. This game is like a solid, it like It's a little bit, I would say a little bit under a little bit under an eight.
kj2294: So I would round up to an eight. But yeah, I i don't know if this comes. I don't know if this actually comes close to. um I don't know if this actually comes close to the original Golden Sun.
kj2294: I wouldn't say that much, but.
polymune: See, I told you I was going to be the controversial one because I'm like, oh.
kj2294: I mean, again.
polymune: But in my like my I played it, I'll go on a long time ago or not long time ago, a lot of years further in in my life of having to play a lot of things. And I really like that.
polymune: But to be fair, Golden Sun's probably more a nine point two five.
kj2294: No, it was a solid game.
polymune: So there you go. There's ah there's like a seven point seven difference. There you go.
kj2294: Yeah, again, I think this is this. It's like I said, this is a it's a solid game and I think people just have to deal with that. I really do.
kj2294: I think.
polymune: Yeah, I feel like people shit on this and then pretending it doesn't exist ah is kind of harsh. um I think they did it good a luck a lot of things right i and that I would love to see them do a fourth one. Like I would be all in on them making a fourth one if they made it a lot like Dark Dawn.
polymune: if they made it a lot like Dark Dawn um and concluded the story and maybe make the difficulty a little bit more difficult or that you really couldn't get all the jins in one playthrough, something like that, um so that you're not super OP.
polymune: But ah honestly, i i I want a Golden Sun 4 after playing that. And it's kind of sad because I'm like, it's 14 years later and there's nothing!
kj2294: i agree i think goldson
polymune: would you agree like you Would you agree with like wanting a fourth one rather than a remake?
kj2294: I mean, yeah, I think i would like to I would definitely like to see the story closed out. Like, I'd like to see what the story would look like if they had sort of closed out the story and sort of figured, like, finished all of the Alex stuff.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: We get closure there. I would love to see that. That'd be great. But I don't think i don't think it's gonna happen, but I think it would be good.
polymune: Yeah. No.
kj2294: So, yeah, I don't know.
polymune: Cry, but yeah.
kj2294: um I'm... i Won't say I'm content with where this ended like it did end on a cliffhanger and I don't like cliffhangers, but at the very least it was It was better than I expected I remember buying this game in 2010 when it came out or not 2000 I guess I got this in like 2013 cuz I didn't have a DS but I remember getting it and in like 2013 after I'd got a 3DS and I was like, Oh, I need to go back and like kind of see more of the DS library.
kj2294: And I picked this up and I was very, very disappointed. And I was disappointed that it wasn't Isaac and company.
polymune: Oh.
kj2294: And I was disappointed that of just kind of how it all looked and everything. And I remember being disappointed and jumping back in, I was like pleasantly surprised with how much fun I was having with the game.
kj2294: So yeah. yeah
polymune: You know what? That's a really great point that when you first played it way back when in 2013, you were coming off of like Golden Sun being your favorite game of all time and you wanted to have more Isaac and all that sort of stuff.
polymune: It wasn't that. So you were disappointed. And maybe a lot of the people who got it back then were in a similar boat to you where they wanted to be Isaac and co.
kj2294: Expectations, yeah.
polymune: They wanted all that.
kj2294: I did think Expectations killed this game, yeah, for sure.
polymune: Yeah, their expectation killed it and then they never looked at it again. But you coming back to it now, 11 years later, playing it with a fresh perspective and a fresh, like, you know, I know this is in the future.
polymune: I know it's not going to be Isaac. You ended up appreciating it a lot more. And I think that's actually good to our listeners. Try this game again. If you played this game way back in the day and you didn't like it, give it a, give it a shot again.
polymune: Try it again.
kj2294: Oh, Paula, you're really trying to get us canceled.
polymune: And like,
kj2294: You're trying to get people that don't like this game to go play it again. That is crazy.
polymune: I'm just trying to hope that people start talking about cold and some more and we get a four, okay?
kj2294: That's not happening.
polymune: KHA like, let me dream. Let me dream.
kj2294: There's no way.
polymune: Let me have my hopeless dream.
kj2294: Okay, I think with that, yeah, on that note, we can wrap up.
polymune: On that note, now that everybody has unsubscribed to turn -based tangents, thanks for staying.
kj2294: Yeah, for the one or two people that are still subscribed, we appreciate y 'all. Thank y 'all for being here. um Yeah, we've we've had a lot going on. Both of us have, so we haven't been able to do the or that we're not able to do the the live so like the live ah podcast episode.
polymune: Yeah.
kj2294: So this one is obviously just recorded, and then the next one will also be recorded. But yeah, we appreciate y 'all, and so we' ah we'll see y 'all next time.
polymune: Yeah, we'll catch in the next one, which will be SMT5. SMT5 Vengeance is our next one.
kj2294: Yeah, we pivoted. We'll talk about that on the next episode.
polymune: Yes. All right.
kj2294: All right.
polymune: Well, thanks to everybody for listening. I appreciate you guys who like the two people who are still here.
kj2294: yeah All right. Bye -bye, everybody.
polymune: Bye.
