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Palestine State Recognition: Europe's Response to Genocide
527 Plays1 hour ago
In this episode, Al-Shabaka policy analysts Diana Buttu, Inès Abdel Razek, and Al-Shabaka’s Co-Director Yara Hawari are interviewed by Al-Shabaka's commissioning editor Dina Hussein on the recent wave of Palestine State recognition by several European powers as a policy response to the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
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Transcript
Ineffectiveness of Recognizing Palestine
00:00:00
Speaker
This policy of recognition has for the people like Mahmoud Abbas served the two purposes of keeping the Palestinian Authority afloat while at the same time giving these European powers an out so that they don't have to do anything. and the sum total of it is going to be a big nothing.
00:00:18
Speaker
Mahmoud Abbas thinks that somehow this will change the equation that when it's a state that's considered under occupation, that the world powers are going to act. But if we haven't seen that world powers are acting in the face of genocide, which is the worst of all international crimes, what makes him think that they're somehow going to act in the face of of one member state occupying another? It's it's completely nonsensical to me.
00:00:45
Speaker
In this episode of Rethinking Palestine, Al-Shabaka Commissioning Editor Deena Hussain interviews myself and policy members Deanna Boutou and Inez Abdur-Razah on the topic of recognition of the state of Palestine in light of the recent announcements by France and the UK.
00:01:01
Speaker
A condensed version of this conversation has been transcribed into a written commentary and can be found on our website www.al-shabaka.org.
Motivations Behind Recognition
00:01:14
Speaker
At this moment, as the world is witnessing one of the worst humanitarian crises of Israeli genocide in Gaza and the starvation campaign, what we're seeing from European countries is basically a policy centering on either the intention or the actual recognition of the state of Palestine.
00:01:32
Speaker
So my first question has to do with trying to understand why this is happening. Why are some European states moving to recognize the state of Palestine, specifically since the beginning of the genocide?
00:01:44
Speaker
And what are the political and strategic interests driving this policy or wave of the recognition that began in 2024? Why is this the case? Diana, would you like to speak first?
00:01:57
Speaker
I think it's important to put this in its proper historical context, and then I want to bring it to the current day. Historically, this move to have state recognition actually doesn't date back to 2024. It dates back to 2011.
00:02:11
Speaker
And the reason that it began in 2011 was because at that point in time, if you recall, this was the time when Israel had finished its bombing campaign, the two thousand and eight two thousand and nine bombing campaign on Gaza.
00:02:24
Speaker
And at the time, the Palestinian Authority really was left with kind of nothing. They had no political program in place. They had been pushing this idea of two states achieved through negotiations.
00:02:35
Speaker
And it became abundantly clear that there weren't going to be any negotiations, particularly since Ehud Umar was now, at that point in time, out of office. And so Mahmoud Abbas, having nothing in his pocket other than this idea of negotiations, embarked on this campaign of recognition, of statehood, of the world to somehow recognize Palestine as
Symbolic vs. Substantial Actions
00:02:59
Speaker
a state.
00:02:59
Speaker
And at its core, the whole point of it was to do two things. One, it was to continue to prop up the Palestinian Authority, even though the Palestinian Authority should have been sunk a long time ago. Its it's only purpose was to serve as an intermediary during the period of the negotiations. And without those negotiations, it was becoming apparent that it was simply the security subcontractor to Israel.
00:03:23
Speaker
And so on the one hand, he needed to show that he was doing something. But also on the other hand, it's been the way of the European nations and others to avoid actually confronting Israel.
00:03:36
Speaker
So rather than actually taking on measures that are going to directly confront this occupation, whether it's through arms embargo, through boycotts, through divestment, through sanctions, instead, this gives the European trees an out where all they can do is somehow recognize the state of Palestine and do nothing on the other hand.
00:03:55
Speaker
So this process or this policy of recognition has for the people like Mahmoud Akbar served the two purposes of keeping the Palestinian Authority afloat while at the same time giving these European powers an out so that they don't have to do anything. And the sum total of it is going to be a big nothing.
00:04:15
Speaker
Mahmoud Abbas thinks that somehow this will change the equation that when it's a state that's considered under occupation, that the world powers are going to act. But if we haven't seen that world powers are acting in the face of genocide, which is the worst of all international crimes, what makes him think that they're somehow going to act in the face of of one member state occupying another? It's it's completely nonsensical to me.
00:04:39
Speaker
I totally obviously agree with you, Diana. I think the the idea or the political measure of recognition is definitely a cop-out, as you said, for ah Western countries and Israeli allies, because that the problem is that they present this as a bold move, right? The entire spin around this is that they present this as this very costly political measure that requires a lot of political courage, when in fact, absolutely not. Like, it's the it's a very symbolic move.
00:05:07
Speaker
that changes absolutely nothing for the Israelis. And actually, back when Spain and Ireland, you know, recognized some Israeli, you know, think tankers and analysts just said it, like, it's not going to change anything on the ground. Israel will not feel anything, any costs after such decision.
00:05:25
Speaker
So it is maintaining the very comfort zone. that the diplomatic community, that the international community has been in, and that has led to this very moment, to the very brink of extermination of our people in Gaza and to the genocide. And, you know, we have to know that there is more than 140 countries now in the world. I think we're around 145 who...
00:05:46
Speaker
do recognize Palestine. What has that changed? We're still here at the brink of extermination of our people and an existential ah threat to our existence on our end. so So it's not like we don't have precedents. We haven't done this.
00:05:59
Speaker
And so I think, the as Diana said, I think that very point of like the cop-out it gives for Israeli allies to pretend that they are doing something when in fact they're Just reinforcing the culture of impunity of Israel um is is, I think, the main point, because also I think it's important to understand how Israel operates.
Accountability and Status Quo
00:06:21
Speaker
Israel uses, as Diana said, also negotiations, right? back the negotiations whether on ceasefire or the Oslo Agreement, or now even on humanitarian aid, they use this strategy, like they have a scorched earth strategy. They destroy everything. They take everything from us.
00:06:39
Speaker
Our homes, our land, they destroy everything. And then they will ask us to negotiate to get a crumb, you know, to basically get a breadcrumb from the entire... resources, food that they have stolen from us. And then we're we're actually blamed for not accepting these breadcrumbs.
00:06:55
Speaker
And so that's exactly what's happening now. They deceived the Europeans into some form of you know humanitarian scheme um so that the Europeans had an excuse to say, okay, we'll not take accountability measures because they've agreed on a humanitarian scheme.
00:07:10
Speaker
So it's exactly the same pattern as they do always. They use this to control the agenda, to control time and space, to then further annex, further kill our people and further ah destroy.
00:07:21
Speaker
And so that tactic has been repeated over and over again. And with recognition, they've done the same. They've like portrayed outrage. They will, you know, expel an ambassador, we recall an ambassador, say that this is diplomatic terrorism and and and project outrage, when in fact they know it won't change anything. And so that outrage...
00:07:40
Speaker
creates the sense in the international community that they have done something meaningful to to basically you know upset Israel. It it is really a sort of ballet in the political scene that is effectively shielding completely Israel from accountability and is making the countries escaping their very legal ah responsibility as well.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I think we also have to be really clear about what we mean when we're talking about the recognition of the state of Palestine. We're talking about diplomatic recognition of an entity that doesn't exist.
00:08:16
Speaker
And really the the solidification of of a narrative of colonial partition. And by that, I mean the the partition of historic Palestine geographically, socially and um politically. And as Diana mentioned, this this narrative has been around for some time and and in some circles, it's been put forward as the most urgent policy third states should pursue in support of Palestinian in self-determination. I think Inez described as this this diplomatic comfort zone.
00:08:45
Speaker
um And it's something that the the so-called Palestinian leadership pursues at a state level. it's It's really their dominant sort of narrative. And we've seen in the last year and a half, since the beginning of the genocide, really, European countries or certain European countries that have been vocally critical of Israel, like Norway, Spain, Ireland, just to name a few and They all recognize the state of Palestine in in response to the the genocide.
00:09:10
Speaker
And it was celebrated in a lot of circles and a lot of spaces as as a win. And I understand that impetus because in the darkest chapter of our history, we need wins. You know, we need to feel like that we have allies, especially on a state level.
00:09:25
Speaker
and But I think we have to be also very careful and recognize what's at stake here. States, especially the European states, have long used recognition as a distraction from accountability and complicity.
00:09:37
Speaker
Because when we talk about recognition of the state of Palestine, we're not really talking about a recognition that is followed with um any kind of decisive action to make that entity a reality. You know, none of these states are saying we're going to recognize the state of Palestine and then we'll send in forces that will enable that state into being and and the occupation of the 1967 lands or put sanctions on the Israeli regime, etc, etc. So what they're actually saying is that they're going to recognize it in the international legal realm, this ethereal, magical, mystical place. But in reality, it will remain...
00:10:12
Speaker
elusive because there is no political will to actually force the Israeli regime to allow the physical state of Palestine into being. So it's really, it's a diplomatic policy move. And and it's one that a lot of Palestinians have t-cov because it really enforces this narrative or this state level position of partition. And it And it shrinks down the the population of of the Palestinian people to less than half by only recognizing those in the West Bank and Gaza as Palestinian. And so it geographically fragments Palestine or it shrinks the the actual territory of what Palestinians call home.
00:10:46
Speaker
And I think in some cases, recognition of a Palestinian state has been pursued. by very well-meaning parties, and we can unpack that a bit more later. But we also have to recognise that this discourse of of two states and a recognition of the state of Palestine has often been a ah smokescreen to avoid accountability mechanisms that could be used for Israeli war crimes and for continued contraventions of of international law. So rather than hold Israeli regime accountable,
00:11:17
Speaker
countries or politicians can say, you know, we're trying to get back on track for a two-state solution and we want to recognize the state of Palestine, et cetera, et cetera. And the absurdity of it all is quite something, you know, here we are and amidst an ongoing genocide, a forced starvation campaign of over 2 million people that is being funded and aided and abetted by many European states.
00:11:38
Speaker
And rather than say, you know, we have to stop this genocide, they're saying we need to focus on recognition of but a state that doesn't exist.
Palestinian Authority's Challenges
00:11:47
Speaker
I wanted to build on on the the point you made, Yara and Diana, earlier about you what Mahmoud Abbas was seeking and also the PA's interest in this. Because what's interesting also is that i think with the latest recognition moves even more.
00:12:00
Speaker
What is it that they're recognizing? And it's clear that they're recognizing more the PA and the the sort of role of the PA rather than basing it on... Palestinian right to self-determination and every base of international law that exists for that.
00:12:16
Speaker
And I dig, you know, before our our meeting today, the Norwegian statement when they recognized lately. And they say the goal is to achieve a Palestinian state that is politically cohesive.
00:12:26
Speaker
And that derives from the Palestinian Authority. That's kind of reversing the entire point of recognition, which is Palestinian self-determination. De facto recognizing the PA as the representative of the Palestinians, but when they don't have a representative mandate, you know, they were established as an interim body and...
00:12:44
Speaker
And so it's interesting how it has been flipped completely, again, erasing all of the basis of what a Palestinian statehood, if it would be supporting Palestinian self-determination, would mean. And and another point in that is one criteria in international law for statehood is the ability of the government to exercise effective control of the population and the territory, right? It's it's called the principle of effectiveness.
00:13:10
Speaker
and the In this case, like you know the PA will never be able to meet that criteria because it it just simply does not control borders, natural resources, the population registry, taxes, all of that.
00:13:23
Speaker
All of these fundamentals of sovereignty are with the Israeli regime. like the israel The Israeli entity controls the entire territory between the river and the sea and and our lives as Palestinians. So ah even that you know is is completely...
00:13:38
Speaker
obviously hypocritical in the way that that they're using this move. Just to build off of what both you, Ines, and Yara have mentioned, one of the things that really strikes me a lot in this moment is that we've been watching with extreme pain this genocide.
00:13:56
Speaker
And we've been watching this and and waiting for some type of of leadership that's gonna come out and and say something and do something in relation to Gaza.
00:14:08
Speaker
And instead, it's just this leadership goes back to the same old ideas of, oh, it's about statehood. it's It's not even ah any longer about liberation or about self-determination or liberation being the highest and in self-determination. It's now just about like creating some sort of an entity that's called a state.
00:14:26
Speaker
And it's because they're not even willing to to challenge Israel just as much as the Europeans aren't willing to challenge Israel. We also have this authority that's not willing to challenge Israel. They're not willing to do anything to push back against Israel during this crisis.
00:14:40
Speaker
genocide that we're all watching with extreme pain. And instead, in their minds, it's all about, well, if we just create something, then all of this pain is somehow going to be erased.
00:14:50
Speaker
And so rather than them confronting Israel, rather them leading the charge to confront Israel, it's all about how is it that we can achieve a little bit of what we want to achieve without actually confronting Israel. And and again, it's them giving the Europeans this pass and the Europeans taking this pass.
00:15:10
Speaker
So neither side is actually doing anything to hold Israel to account. And the terrifying thing in all of this is that there's been so much effort put into all of these legal and other mechanisms of accountability, whether it's at the ICJ level or at the ICC level, you name it.
00:15:26
Speaker
And yet with all of that, it's always being squandered by ah leadership that instead of picking it up and and running with it, is instead concerned about the optics of having something that they can declare a state where they can raise a flag, have a postage stamp,
00:15:42
Speaker
and um and and have a passport that says Palestinian, but without any of the actual things that come with statehood, as as you said, Ines, there's no actual freedom.
00:15:52
Speaker
There's no actual sovereignty. It's just the trappings of looking as though it's a state without actually having that level of freedom. And that part for me is not only incredibly frustrating, but it leads you to question this whole enterprise as an enterprise to begin with. And why it is that the ceiling has become so low for this leadership.
Oslo Framework Critique
00:16:14
Speaker
Just to add there, I would go one step further and say that it's far worse than that. I think the the Palestinian Authority is pursuing this policy because it's yet another way in which they can solidify their control over the entirety of the Palestinian people in the face of deep, deep unpopularity and illegitimacy. You know, this is a body that that is not that has not been elected. It doesn't have a ah popular mandate from its people.
00:16:43
Speaker
And so this pursuit of statehood is really, for them, about solidifying their their position as the leadership, and as a non-elected leadership of the Palestinian people.
00:16:57
Speaker
This kind of fixation by the Palestinian Authority and Western powers to kind of frame what's happening in Palestine in this Oslo language of this two-state solution and the peace process.
00:17:11
Speaker
And all of that is is part of holding on to this kind of post-Oslo language. order, if you will. So how do you think the world has changed or this has changed or this setting has changed after October 7 and in the midst of this ongoing genocide?
00:17:27
Speaker
Are we witnessing some kind of change in this framing of what's happening in Palestine?
00:17:35
Speaker
I can say a word on that. And then Diana has much more experience in this. And you start with that, actually, Diana, because I think we cannot detach the entire political framing that governments are incapable of exiting now in this urgent moment from the so-called Middle East peace process, from the very sort of political framing of the entire question of Palestine.
00:17:57
Speaker
and And we're seeing this, of course, with the conference that is happening supposedly happening in New York in just a few days from now. The whole framing is around the idea that, again, there is this false equivalence, right? That there is two parties in dispute.
00:18:12
Speaker
I was just, you know, um i think reading the statement from the UN n Secretary General, he said he's hoping for a peaceful resolution of disputes. Like this would be a dispute between two parties. Like there's no colonizer and colonized. There's no aggressor and aggress. There is no occupier and occupied. Like again,
00:18:29
Speaker
where still stuck with countries that are very complicit in maintaining that idea that ah there's just two parties that, you know, would have just a dispute and would need to dialogue and negotiate.
00:18:42
Speaker
And so this is a very fundamentally serious problem at hand.
Normalization with Israel
00:18:47
Speaker
Like what needs to happen is a complete shattering of this paradigm. And again, it's not without having its basis. Like the ICJ said it clearly, like there needs to be an end to the occupation and states have an obligation. Like everything is written black and white. All of the tools, all of the resolutions, all of the court decisions are out there.
00:19:07
Speaker
it's ah It's a very clear political decision not to come out of that comfort zone to protect Israel and to, again, make a false equivalence. that the Palestinians and Israelis would be on an equal footing. And so without getting out of that trap, of that very framing, we're literally going to be genocided towards the end. I mean, that's that literally what's happening. Ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people accelerated if we're not getting out of that trap.
00:19:36
Speaker
And if Israel is not helped to account isolated and sanctions as it should be. And so I think that's the very, very core of the problem. And everyone knows it, but everyone keeps the same mantras. Everyone keeps repeating those very empty and and really shameful statements that are coming out of all of those states.
00:19:55
Speaker
and And the parallel to that is the regional dynamics, because... Obviously, a lot of the states, when very lately they were talking about recognition, it was implicitly to encourage Arab states to recognize Israel.
00:20:09
Speaker
So again, it was had nothing to do with Palestinian self-determination or the Palestinian rights or advancing the question of Palestine to, you know, resolve this ah with justice and and and our rights. It was really just, let's have more Arab states normalizing a genocidal regime and and a colonial regime.
00:20:28
Speaker
And so let's recognize Palestine in exchange to recognize Israel. And that's, of course, very dangerous and and outrageous.
00:20:37
Speaker
You summed it up so perfectly, Ines, but so I'm not sure if I have anything to add, but i go to maybe I'll try. One of the problems, if you look at it from the perspective of the Europeans, and I think it's important for us to look at it from their perspective, they think that this is so radical.
00:20:54
Speaker
And the reason that they think that it's so radical is because recognizing the state of Palestine is coming not at the end of a political process, but ah but like ah at the beginning or not even at the beginning. It's just, it's something that they're gonna do. And so for them, this is so deeply radical.
00:21:11
Speaker
And yet it's so not. And the reason that it's so not is because of everything that you mentioned. like We already have these now, these several ICJ opinions, one that came out in 2004, another one that came out in 2024, that all have added up to say that not only is the occupation illegal because of the way that it's been conducted, but it's also illegal because it's illegal.
00:21:35
Speaker
and And so it's been, it's put an obligation on states to not recognize that this occupation and not recognize the illegality of it. And it effectively puts into place all the things that the three of us have always been talking about for many, many years now, which is the whole idea of BDS and that states have a responsibility to ensure that they are acting in accordance with BDS.
00:21:57
Speaker
So as a means of them evading their theirre international legal responsibilities, and they do have international legal responsibilities, they are trying to go around and you know take this path of of recognition and at the same time thinking about how radical it is because it is it's going away from the traditional of bilateral negotiations into and into them saying what they want the end to look like.
00:22:24
Speaker
And yet embedded in that is this idea that there has to be bilateral negotiations, which is is to its very core, it's quite sick. It's, you know, this idea that we are the ones who always have to be negotiating our freedom. we have to be negotiating every single aspect of our our very existence.
00:22:40
Speaker
And again, this takes away from their responsibility as third state and actors, as international actors, And they're acting as though somehow they don't, you know, they're just these like hand wringing, know, we we don't have, we can't do anything.
00:22:54
Speaker
When in fact they can and should be doing things. They they can be imposing an arms embargo. They can impose sanctions. They can be supporting the BDS movement, but they're they're choosing not to. And it's so it's this effectively, we've paid the price, we as Palestinians have paid the price for for the European Holocaust of
Beyond Symbolic Recognition
00:23:17
Speaker
Jews.
00:23:17
Speaker
And rather than them taking on actions to actually hold Israel to account, It's as though Israel can do no wrong. And by embarking on this process of recognition, they're being so radical and they're just, you know, they're they're going totally against Israel. When in reality, as we've already mentioned, they're not they're not at all being radical.
00:23:39
Speaker
It changes nothing for people on the ground. changes nothing for Palestinians on the ground. And even so far as if Israel were to go ahead with all of its annexation plans, as already, they've already got some bills that are going right now through the Knesset.
00:23:53
Speaker
Their recognition doesn't change any of this whatsoever. It has zero impact whatsoever.
00:24:00
Speaker
You know, i I would rather that states recognized the genocide than a Palestinian state, because that would trigger all kinds of obligations. Not that I'm under any illusions that they would meet them, but in recognition of the genocide,
00:24:18
Speaker
States have to do everything in their power to stop that genocide. So focus on state recognition, I think conveniently lets them off the hook for other obligations. And I think overall, I think there's a disproportionate amount of energy among allies and well-meaning people. For me, I think if if people want to pursue struggling in the the international law arena, then I would say that the focus has to be on accountability.
00:24:45
Speaker
and This is the only way to stop the ongoing horrors of the genocide and and to deter them from being and inflicted on the Palestinian people again, because when there is a ceasefire,
00:24:56
Speaker
There will be no guarantees that the Israeli regime will not do this again and again. and I think recognition of of the Palestinian state does nothing to deter them.
00:25:08
Speaker
It doesn't come with the same kind of you know consequences as recognizing that a genocide is is happening in Gaza. I want to double down and and expand on the point you made is the destruction and the energy.
00:25:22
Speaker
I think people have to realize also how much money and diplomatic capital and political capital and time and space, all of these...
00:25:35
Speaker
Ballets and preparations of conferences and distracting dialogues and discussions on recognition, not recognition, peace ah process and negotiations and dialogue and all of that are taking away from, sorry, but you should be in Rafah every day. Like, you know, all of these diplomats and and politicians until like the siege is broken. Like, I'm really trying to not curse, as you can see. Yeah.
00:26:02
Speaker
in this talk, but it's like, this is insane, like how much of all of the political potential they have, leverage, that is used completely in useless ways that make them complicit.
00:26:16
Speaker
You know, it's not just you're complacent. You are at this stage complicit because your time, space, energy budget you have as a politician should be just on like arms embargo and getting the humanitarian aid in, breaking the the the siege and all of that.
00:26:33
Speaker
Something they can do. And so i think that a lot of the time, maybe a lot of people don't necessarily realize, but there is entire positions that are called, you know, Middle East Peace Process Envoy and Peace Envoy that takes on the tax, you know, that are paid on the taxpayer money.
00:26:50
Speaker
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00:27:02
Speaker
ah Thank you, Ines. One of the things that was mentioned, also specifically in the lead up to the UN conference on the two-state solution that is supposedly going to happen at the end of the month, is that it's also a way of recognition of the state of Palestine by European state is meant to kind of encourage Gulf states, particularly Saudi Arabia, to normalize ties with Israel and, you know, advance the normalization, you know, the Arab normalization or the normalization between Arab regimes and the Israeli regime.
00:27:34
Speaker
So are we witnessing all of this effort and money and diplomacy will, in fact, go into expanding and advancing a normalization and at what cost?
00:27:46
Speaker
So with the the conference that was going to be ah hosted by France and Saudi Arabia, sort of getting us back to two states in in June, which was subsequently cancelled because of the the war in Iran, we saw a lot of these conversations floating about that suggested really that Saudi normalisation with Israel would be leveraged to get more European states to recognize the state of Palestine. So in other words, it would be a very transactional understanding that if the more kind of European countries that recognize the state of Palestine, Saudi would then sort of reward those maneuvers with a normalization.
00:28:24
Speaker
of relations with the Israeli regime. So it's kind of used as this bargaining chip. And it's a really cheap trade-off, you know, as we've already discussed, know, recognition of of the Palestinian state is, you know, symbolic at best. It has no, you know, guarantees for Palestinians in terms of an end to the genocide, the occupation or but fulfillment of their inalienable rights.
00:28:47
Speaker
I don't think Ahmad bin Salman, MBS of Saudi Arabia, I don't think he cares about that. He wants to normalize his relations with Israel and just needs to find really the excuse to allow him to do that. So it could be sort of framed as this sort of trade-off. and But I think it's really important to mention here that the the stance of anti-normalization, which was historically taken by states in the region was based on this understanding that Israel is not a normal regime or country. It's ah it's a colonial entity that exists at the expense of of the Palestinian right self-determination and literally on top of historic Palestine. And it was...
00:29:24
Speaker
a stance that was based really on popular sentiment from the the people of the region. And in recent years, we've seen a complete 180 in terms of of the stance for many Arab regimes have officially normalized their relations with Israel, usually in return for military or financial aid from from the US.
00:29:42
Speaker
The Abraham Accords was an example of this per excellence. It was you know very much a series of transactional um deals rather than an ideological shift of popular sentiment. And I think it's really important to stress that we know that popular sentiment in the region remains steadfast in support of the Palestinian struggle.
00:30:02
Speaker
But the equation now on on a sort of state level is that if you normalise with the Israeli regime, you will be heavily rewarded. so recognition of Palestinian statehood by European countries sort of offers the Saudi the saudi regime the excuse to normalise, to do what it's long wanted to do, which is to officially normalise relations with Israel.
00:30:28
Speaker
The fascinating thing with this is that Israelis don't care. Like Israelis don't give two hoots about normalization any longer. So much so that it's not even a topic that they discuss, that they care about. Even when 2020 normalization with with the UAE then followed by other countries happened, it barely made a blip inside Israel in terms of public opinion and otherwise. And yet, as you've already said, rightfully, it's also the other way around, which is as much as there have been these attempts to try to normalize between Egypt and Israel. There's an agreement between Jordan and Israel, which wouldn't have been possible had it not been for Oslo, by the way. And now with the UAE and with Israel, we as Palestinians, you know the three of us who live in Palestine, we don't see people from Egypt.
00:31:19
Speaker
We don't see people coming from Jordan. We certainly don't see people from the UAE visiting either. So on ah on ah on a popular level, like on ah on a personal level, those pushes for normalization have actually failed. And normalization hasn't yielded anything for any of those countries, that's for for certain, other than security agreements and security contracts, which may which was probably the the crux of it to begin with. But But the fascinating thing is that, and you're right in saying that MBS wants to normalize, and yet the normalization, it means absolutely nothing inside Israel.
00:31:55
Speaker
So much so that that the more that they keep trying to push it, the more that the MBS and Europeans, et cetera, try to push this idea of normalization, but normalization has to come with recognition.
00:32:06
Speaker
The more that we see that the Israeli public is opposed to it because globalization doesn't mean anything to them. They don't really they don't even know what countries are. They can't name five countries that are in the Arab Middle East.
00:32:19
Speaker
They certainly don't speak Arabic as you all know. and And so for them, their sights are always towards Europe. It's not at all towards the the Arab world. And so it leaves me with this sense of, like, everybody's desperate on a state level to have this process of recognition and normalization.
00:32:38
Speaker
And yet...
Normalization's Impact
00:32:40
Speaker
When it comes to us on the ground, it's going to mean absolutely nothing. And when comes to people like Netanyahu and his supporters, it also means absolutely nothing.
00:32:49
Speaker
And so it leaves me with this sense of other than, it wondering, it leaves me just with this sense that we've talked about from the beginning, which is the only reason that they're doing it is because they have to look as though they're doing something in the face of this genocide. And as you so but so eloquently put it, Yadda, they don't want to recognize the genocide. So it's so much easier for them to recognize a state rather than recognizing a genocide.
00:33:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the latest somehow counterbalance a bit this is from the Arab state's perspective is that Israel is accelerating so much its colonial project and endeavor beyond Palestine, right?
00:33:26
Speaker
Now it's it's it's attacking very clearly and occupying parts of Lebanon. And it's in Syria. It has extended its annexation of, you know, and occupation of the Golan. So it's like, it's it's uncomfortable.
00:33:39
Speaker
it It makes it a bit uncomfortable for the Arab states at this stage. But yet, of course, we are very, very, very far away from, of course, embargoes, right? Like, we have to remember 73 and...
00:33:51
Speaker
Arab regimes that had imposed embargoes. But I want to go back to the, I think what is even most outrageous about this conference is that it is happening at the end of the month, but it has been downgraded.
00:34:02
Speaker
So not only the situation is the worst that it has ever been, But somehow they are admitting their very own failure. And instead of saying, you know, cancel this conference, we understand we need the completely reshuffling of the political approach and Israel needs to be sanctioned and measures need to be taken.
00:34:25
Speaker
They're completely putting things under the rug. They're like escaping their responsibility more, just then grading. And there's not actually much more talk about recognition anymore for the conference and it's in the ministerial level and the presidents are not showing up.
00:34:42
Speaker
So very much admitting their very own failure on every political level, with even the worst political and diplomatic response behind it. So I think that's what's the most outrageous about it all.
00:34:53
Speaker
And, you know, the the thing that I think Diana reminded is that, again, this tactic of Israel to destroy everything, to really annex as much as possible, to get our people on the brink of just beyond barely survival,
00:35:11
Speaker
is then every single minimal measure, and the Arab states are following on this, right? Like the the Gulf regimes will bind on this, like whether it will be millions on humanitarian aid to Gaza. Before we talk about breaking the siege, ending the blockades, ending the occupation. Now, then it was reconstruction of Gaza and economic peace. Now it's just getting a few trucks in and getting humanitarian aid in.
00:35:38
Speaker
So it keeps shrinking whatever they're presenting as either good gestures or measures for towards, you know, a solution or peace or whatever.
00:35:50
Speaker
So it is outrageous because then we're we are trapped into this kind of position where we are negotiating on just getting a tiny bit of flour on the floor.
00:36:02
Speaker
And so we're we're here right now, like we're at this stage right now. And i I think that's what the the regimes that want to normalize with Israel will use also as a tactic to kind of try and show they're doing something for the Palestinian people for their own constituencies. And because, it again, it's uncomfortable for them, given Israeli kind of colonial expansion and maximalist approach in this moment.
00:36:31
Speaker
Ines, you talked before about the activism that has been happening among civil society organizations in the lead up to the conference that was happening that was supposedly going to take place in June and now postponed to end of July.
00:36:43
Speaker
You know, what kind of civil society, what's the role of civil society, what role did it play or it should play in influencing these kind of, you know, in in the diplomacy field and influencing states' actions to kind of shift away from this ah recognition discourse?
00:37:01
Speaker
and move to more accountability and isolating Israel and and sanctioning it. I don't really like the actually concept of civil society and how it is understood probably by most of the audience listening to this talk right now.
00:37:17
Speaker
We are part of a civil society, but what does it mean? i think we won't have liberation without a liberation movement. But because we don't have a unified representative liberation movement, what we have left as actors who are not part of the PA, who are not part of the PLO and who are not getting basically who wants a politically representative movement to take on those issues.
00:37:42
Speaker
We're left with what we can do, right? Which is... on the civil society level. But we cannot be defined as civil society as in any states that, again, like any country or nation that has like its institution, its constitutions, and then its parliament, and then civil society will be a counterpower. That just doesn't work like that in our space. So what we can do as Palestinians is that every Palestinian individually, collectively, as groups and as collectives, we're organizing together as we can to make sure that, you know, we can defend our people's rights because the people who are supposedly representing us who are have absolutely no legitimacy or electoral legitimacy or whatsoever are speaking on our behalf.
00:38:26
Speaker
So I'm not representing the Palestinian people, but we can do in the meantime to push for this end to this international complicity because the biggest obstacle to our self-determination and us, you know, kind of also getting to renew our political body and our political leadership is also that we're under attack constantly.
00:38:47
Speaker
We are smeared, we're arrested, whether it's actually in Palestine or in the US now or in Europe, just for trying to defend our people. and so And so I think that's just in terms of framing like what we're trying to do and what what civil society is or not. And then Look, I don't think any of us who are active on the international scene have had any expectations or high expectations on this conference or, again, diplomatic efforts and whatnot.
00:39:13
Speaker
I think it's more like just putting them, like trying to also show that it's now or never. You know, if they're not cornered now into doing something with that gathering, they choose to have a gathering, make something out of it.
00:39:25
Speaker
If you have that gathering, make something out of it and actually take the decisions and the and your obligations and the measures you should take, whether it's arms embargo, energy embargo, cutting ties with Israel, changing your entire relationship with a state and a regime.
00:39:40
Speaker
That is inherently destroying the entire idea of a world order, of international law for everyone. And so I'm afraid that now, if the next few weeks completely fail on the Palestinian people, this is the deathbed, final deathbed for the entire multilateral system as it exists.
Rethinking Self-Determination
00:40:01
Speaker
And actually, the U.S. s is now burying the very system they created and their hegemonic moment after the World War II, like the UN n and and all of these institutions that they dominate.
00:40:13
Speaker
So if they would make something out of it, they actually control them, but they're very much destroying that system. And so something will emerge out of it. But I think we're in this and these very fluid moment that is very dangerous in some ways because we don't know what's coming next.
00:40:27
Speaker
in terms of others you know how does the international community come together? How do they relate to each other? And is there any rules? If there is no rules, we know that we're the oppressed people.
00:40:40
Speaker
We're the first one everywhere in the world to be the first one. And Gaza is the litmus test. We're the first ones to be the test to that failure. I think, you know, a question that Palestinians have to ask themselves and and also put to to our so-called leadership is why are pursuing self-determination within the confines of a partitionist and colonial framework?
00:41:04
Speaker
you know, is this what the the majority of of Palestinians want. And I think part of the answer lies in the fact that the leadership who is pursuing this strategy is not one that is operating on an elected or popular mandate. You know, these, as I mentioned before, people that don't hold any kind of popular legitimacy. And then I think it's incumbent on us to think what it means, you know, what sovereignty, what self-determination means beyond partition and colonial fragmentation. it you know,
00:41:32
Speaker
and Part of the answer it is that it it requires us to reject you know the confines so oh of feasibility that have been enforced upon us. you know we've As Palestinians, we've long been told that Palestinian statehood you know recognition are the only sort of feasible options that that we have ahead of us, when the reality is that you know the former is never going to happen, and the latter is just lip service. And I think these are all really important.
00:41:57
Speaker
challenging conversations to have amidst a mr genocide. It seems like such a privilege to be having these debates and and discussions when people are literally being bombed and and and starved as we speak in Gaza.
00:42:10
Speaker
But I think it's really it's really important as Palestinians, especially those who are outside of Gaza, to to have these questions and to put those questions to our leadership.
00:42:22
Speaker
Our sovereignty does not have to be confined to a framework of fragmentation of colonial partition. Yora, I wanted to add something to this, because you're reminding me of some old conversations, and i think these anecdotes might help shape the way that some of these actors are thinking of things.
00:42:43
Speaker
So yeah I remember in yeah in the early days of Oslo, but during the during process of negotiations, This topic of why are we limiting our idea of liberation to this concept of a state, a state that's only on 22% of our historic homeland, in which the vast majority of Palestinians are not going to be able to see liberation or see their right of exercise their right to return.
00:43:17
Speaker
And the response at the time, and I'm sure it's the same today, is that the settlements are a cancer. And because they're a cancer, we have to think of ways to stop that cancer.
00:43:29
Speaker
This was always the the mindset that was put forward, is that the settlements are a cancer, and we have to think of a way to stop that cancer. And the only way that we can stop that cancer is if we have a process that actually ends it, right? That ends the settlement construction, that ends the colonial process, et cetera.
00:43:45
Speaker
And yet, at the same time, in that way of thinking, it also then goes a little bit further, a little bit further, a little bit further. and And in conversations I've had with diplomats who have been talking about this idea of recognition, they bring up the same idea that at least recognition is going to stop the cancer.
00:44:05
Speaker
It's going to stop the cancer of the settlement expansion, the settlement growth, etc. Annexation, you name it. And similarly, on the part of the UAE, when they normalized, you'll remember, you'll you'll all recall that one of the things that they said is that now at least we'll have a say and we'll be able to have influence when it comes to Israel to do one, two, three, four, five.
00:44:26
Speaker
Well, in all of those responses, they're all false. First, the the push for statehood has not stopped the cancer. Limiting hour our vision of liberation to just 22% of historic Palestine hasn't stopped the cancer.
00:44:43
Speaker
The idea of embarking on just a recognition process hasn't stopped the cancer. ah The idea of the UAE and others normalizing with israel hasn't given them any superior leverage with Israel. In fact, quite the opposite. It's been that that because they have have normalized, that they don't want to use that leverage because it takes a lot to take back recognition. Once you recognize, you can't like unrecognize. It's you know it' so a one-time event.
00:45:13
Speaker
And so all of this is to say that for somebody who's looking at it from outside, I don't want people to walk away with a sense that it's all about no, no, no, no no but a sense of what it is that could have been done otherwise.
00:45:24
Speaker
And the what could have been done otherwise, at least in my opinion, what I'm hearing from from everybody else here as well, is that there could have been a campaign that actually focuses on holding Israel to account. There could have been a campaign that is focusing on accountability and pushing for sanctions and pushing for arms embargoes and and pushing for boycotts.
00:45:44
Speaker
And that's actually taking Israel on rather than giving Israel this out and giving the Europeans this out and giving the PA, quite frankly, this out. And that's the part that for me is so frustrating is that when we talk about leadership, you're right that this is an unelected leadership, very ah unpopular.
00:46:02
Speaker
And at the same time, even though it's unpopular and unelected, that doesn't mean that they are incapable. They could have done so many things to be pushing for, to hold Israel to account and to be pushing for our survival. But instead it feels like they're pushing for our sidelining.
00:46:21
Speaker
and in some cases pushing for our capitulation.
The Limits of Recognition
00:46:23
Speaker
And that's the part that for me is the most alarming in all of this, is that they're not even choosing the path of least resistance, they're choosing a path from which there is there is very little way that you can actually go back to the path of holding Israel to account. Once you go down this path of simply recognition, I just don't see how they're then going to push these states in the face of a genocide.
00:46:47
Speaker
To do anything to hold Israel to account when their ceiling during the genocide has just been, oh please recognize us and that's it. And I think others also might argue that recognition comes with but all kinds of sort of privileges and and access to to certain spaces that, you know, will level the diplomatic playing field. That's certainly something that that that I've heard from proponents of of state recognition, that, you know, if Palestine is recognized as a state globally, the Israeli regime and um Palestine will be negotiating from a place of
00:47:23
Speaker
equality, which I find quite naive and also absurd. You know, states are not equal in the international arena. We know that international law is not implemented equally. We know that one country in particular, the US, maintains a veto power at the UN, for example, which gives it, you know, massive bridge. And as the Israeli regime's biggest ally, this means that inherently the relationship will always be unequal.
00:47:48
Speaker
And I've also heard that if Palestine is recognized globally as a state rather than an occupied people, that will also help them in negotiations. I think that that is precisely what we are. We are an occupied. We are a people. We are a besieged people. We are a colonized people. We are a people currently facing a genocide in Gaza. That's the ah reality on the ground. And any kind of so-called negotiations have to start from that position, not from this delusion of a state that doesn't I think Diana made an important point about the PA choosing not to go to confront. I mean, the only, in fact, the only pathway we have right now in the face of what we're all living and and what our people are living in Gaza is resisting in so many ways are possible, right? And the PA itself has leverage, starting with the security coordination and things where it will hurt the PAs, obviously,
00:48:44
Speaker
power, the little power that some elites have maintained. I think that's the crux of the problem. But as as I think, as Diana said, like they chose deliberately not to do so. And on the other point about, you know, the this rhetoric from the a lot of the European...
00:49:02
Speaker
I've heard it even from kind of the most kind of progressive or or deemed progressive states like Ireland, you know, when the the government sort of buried a draft bill to just ban trade with settlement trade, with trade with the colonies. Like that's that's also a kind of a very low threshold of things that they have, they can do, align their trade with international law.
00:49:24
Speaker
They buried it with the rhetoric you know that ah they wanted a seat at the table. They didn't want to be sidelined in the dialogues or with with Israel. They wanted it to be listened to by Israel.
00:49:35
Speaker
And so I think the root the root problem underlining all of these approaches is that I think this government is fundamentally still saying that Israel is a good-faith actor.
00:49:47
Speaker
Because in all of their engagements, they still give the benefit of the doubt to Israel. So whether we are deemed presumed guilty The moment we do something, the Israelis who lie, their policy, their very tactics and patterns of how they govern and do things, especially on the international scene, is lying, is having a very powerful disinformation machine, smearing and basically dehumanizing Palestinians and smearing.
00:50:18
Speaker
We've seen this in countless examples, whether it's when they're killing Shirin Abu Akleh or whether it's when they're destroying Unrua. They're basically fabricating lies.
00:50:29
Speaker
And then these governments will take them to face value or they will believe that somehow, you know, it's, oh, it's the Israelis. And I think there is a fundamental, somehow racist, deep underlying, you know, mentality here ah that the Israelis, you know, would be the ones that give the expertise and and they send them documents and documents and pages in Hebrew that don't...
00:50:49
Speaker
no one understands in those capitals, probably something there, right? Whether it's also accusing human rights groups of being terrorist organizations and designating them. All of these examples is leading to the same problem, is that ultimately they will consider that in anything that Israel does,
00:51:09
Speaker
whether it's letting a truck in or, you know, humanitarian aid in Gaza or ah doing an investigation into a killing or assassination they did in the West Bank, that they have good faith and they have good intentions.
00:51:23
Speaker
And I think without shattering this, without actually the entire world understanding that Israel deceives and Israel lies and they will pursue their colonial project and no matter what.
00:51:35
Speaker
And they've been very steady with it. It's been a very, now they're very accelerating it, but somehow the trajectory has not has not changed. So I think that's really a fundamental issue that needs to be shattered ah so that we can move towards a different political approach and actually just recognizing that Palestinians have a right to resist ah their oppression.
Confronting Israel
00:52:02
Speaker
If recognition is the way for European powers, for Western powers to evade confronting Israel, what would it take for them to actually um start confronting ah the Israeli regime, you think?
00:52:16
Speaker
A decision. It really is as simple as that. It's as simple as them just deciding that they're going to confront Israel. And that's it. And so far, the approach has been to not.
00:52:29
Speaker
I want to share with you, for example, what happened with Norway. So Norway was one of the countries that that did end up recognizing the sign. And as a result, their representative has effectively been kicked out of Palestine.
00:52:44
Speaker
And they haven't totally but effectively been kicked out. The same thing happens with Sweden. The same thing has happened with others as well. And so the question that I have for Norway, for Sweden, for all of these countries is, why did you exert all of that political capital, spend all of that political capital on nothing?
00:53:01
Speaker
Right. Like it's not that your recognition didn't change anything on the ground. Whereas if they spent that same amount of political capital, knowing that they're going to be kicked out of the country or that they're not going to be able to operate, etc., they could have at the very least spent that political capital on doing something that's going to to stop the genocide.
00:53:20
Speaker
And that's going to change the equation in some way, somehow. But they didn't. So we've seen that all it's taken, for example, from South Africa was the decision on the part of South Africa. Now, South Africa could have been like every other country that's out there. you know South Africa is no wealthier than any of these other than any of these European countries. In fact, it's it's much less wealthier and it's in a much more vulnerable position.
00:53:43
Speaker
And yet we saw that South Africa did ah embark with all these proceedings when it came to the ICJ. at at And, you know, not like it all should have taken out a burden for itself if it had been at a risk to itself.
00:53:53
Speaker
And so the all that it requires is them to take that decision. The problem is, is that they don't want to do it alone, is that they're looking for the, quote unquote, coalition of the willing.
00:54:05
Speaker
They're looking for other allies that are existing within Europe. And when you take that position that there have to be other allies or that you take the position that the entirety of Europe or the European Union has to take a position, then you're effectively doing a race to the bottom.
00:54:19
Speaker
Because we know that countries like Germany, like Hungary, and like others are not going to be stepping up and doing anything against Israel. And so it really just demands that they put themselves out there. You know, Norway doesn't need Israel.
00:54:32
Speaker
Believe me, Norway does not need Israel. It's the other way around. And yet they, again, they expended their political capital on a big nothing. And the impact has been a big nothing.
Leadership in Accountability
00:54:45
Speaker
And you know what you said, Diana, the word has not waited also for the West now. Like ah Colombia is an example. They've taken leadership. They decided to cut diplomatic ties, but also ah their coal exports to Israel. And it took obviously time and efforts and it had to go through presidential decree.
00:55:04
Speaker
And now, you know, through parliamentary acceptance, like all of the government's census, but they did. And now some countries came together to see what they can do together, like through the hate group gathering.
00:55:15
Speaker
So there are efforts, which I think are obviously too late, 77 years too late. But I think i think we're we're in this moment where fortunately there is some leadership, but not from the countries that have, of course, the most power leverage there. As Diana said, like some of them have a lot to lose.
00:55:32
Speaker
so So it's important to point out and and even Spain, you know, like they've they've not gone through towards like an entire ah full two-way arms embargo, but they have taken some steps that are important. And they've really, you know, taken concrete measures to stop contracts with Israeli companies and in arms companies.
00:55:49
Speaker
So that's what we need to see more. At this very moment, there's literally, as with all of what we said, these statements that say we call on Israel and we strongly demand.
00:56:01
Speaker
Demanding Israel and calling on Israel to do anything is absolutely impossible. useless And so this is where it is shameful, really, at this stage to be uttering those words without actual measures behind that.
00:56:19
Speaker
Israel's shaking when they say we demand, you know, so shaking. Yeah, and I think it's not by chance that the the Hague Group was established and is being led by Global South countries. And, you know, these are countries that some of whom have, you know, historic ties with Palestine, some of whom don't understand all too well what genocide means and what colonization means. And the remarkable thing is that these are the countries and states that have the most to lose.
00:56:49
Speaker
They can be punished and they have been punished for taking the stance, this promise to take you know action to to try and hold Israel accountable.
00:57:00
Speaker
So I think that's a really important thing. to highlight. And I think, you know, beyond countries, I think, you know, just among people, because we've seen this massive mobilization globally, think people need to focus on accountability. It comes but it see really has to be the key thing here. And I don't just mean in the international law realm, you know, where a lot of Palestinians and allies have lost faith, you know, in it ah as a system to deliver justice.
00:57:29
Speaker
But I think beyond that world and that but system, you know, to think about creative and alternative ways to hold war criminals and genociders to account. And we're seeing that because we're seeing that already happening and in various different countries around the world because of the failure of states to do so. You know, we're seeing really brave attempts by ordinary people to take matters into their own hands.
00:57:53
Speaker
And I think even though collectively we have failed to stop the genocide, I mean, that's something that is really difficult to say, but it's a reality. and It doesn't mean that we give up.
00:58:10
Speaker
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00:58:27
Speaker
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