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What Trump’s Comeback Means for Palestine with Tariq Kenney-Shawa
0 Playsin 16 hours
Al-Shabaka US Policy Fellow Tariq Kenney-Shawa joins the podcast to reflect on the 2024 US presidential election results in the context of ongoing genocide in Gaza and the future of the movement for Palestinian liberation.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
At the end of the day, both Biden and Trump essentially share the same vision for the region. The assumption that Biden
US Political Stance on Israel
00:00:07
Speaker
represented a lesser evil when compared to Trump assumes that he was doing anything at all to constrain Israel. In fact, we see the opposite. He, at the end of the day, was giving Israel everything it needed to get away with genocide and regional escalation, while also distracting everyone with empty human rights rhetoric.
00:00:29
Speaker
From Ashabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, I am Yara Hawari and this is Rethinking Palestine.
00:00:41
Speaker
On 5 November 2024, the US electorate voted in Donald J. Trump for a second term in the 60th presidential election. His victory in return to office after four years follows a turbulent democratic presidential campaign, which saw President Biden abandon his re-election bid earlier this year, and his successor, Vice President Kamala Harris, doubled down on US support for the Israeli genocide in Gaza.
00:01:08
Speaker
Indeed, Gaza and Israel featured heavily in the coverage of the selection cycle. While many aspects of the incoming Trump administration's foreign policy plans remain uncertain, they will undoubtedly continue to have devastating consequences for the Palestinian people. Joining me to discuss all this and more is Ashabaka's U.S. policy fellow, Tarek Kanishawa.
Impact on Arab American Voters
00:01:30
Speaker
Tarek, thank you for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine. Hi, Yara. Thanks for having me on today.
00:01:38
Speaker
So Tarek, before we go into the results and what this will mean for for Palestinians, can you talk to us a little bit about the campaigns of both Harris and Trump and how they position themselves around the genocide in Gaza?
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, so I think what we saw this time around is is what we also see in every US election, which was basically a race to the bottom of sorts to see who could win the title of Israel's best friend. And then what that really entailed and in practice was a race to the bottom of A, dehumanizing Palestinian Americans, seeing who can say basically the worst things about Palestinians, and B, more importantly, seeing who can promise the most unconditional support to Israel. So this process began before Biden dropped out of the election before Harris became took over as head of the Democratic ticket. Biden was essentially claiming that his administration had we given more support to Israel than any other US history, and that was correct. The Biden administration, up to this point, has given more than more than any
00:02:36
Speaker
other previous administration. So basically, we went into the summer in a contest with with who could who could rightfully claim that title of of of of Israel's best friend between the Democrats and the Republicans. So this obviously really did not bode well for for Palestinians and then people who were hoping that there would be a shift or something different when it came to Harris's campaign.
00:02:56
Speaker
But she kind of took it a step further and and and Harris made it very clear that nothing would fundamentally change between her and Biden administration. And and this is not just in relation to Palestine. Her framing of her position and vis-a-vis the Biden administration was that she was going to be a continuation of of her predecessor.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I think that was a ah big that proved to be a ah ah ah big miscalculation on on the wider democratic part. But specifically in relation to the quote unquote Palestine question, I remember in in an interview she had, I think it was with Stephen Colbert. you Stephen Colbert asked her in light of the fact that she hadn't provided very much in the way of of policy specifics. He said, you know in practice policy wise, what will you do differently than Biden?
Progressive Divide Over Pro-Israel Policies
00:03:41
Speaker
And her response was inadequate.
00:03:43
Speaker
her response was, well, I'm not Biden, but I'm not Trump. I think that really set the tone for for the whole race, essentially. But more importantly, I think she, in addition to making it clear that nothing was going to fundamentally change between her approach and Biden's approach to Israel-Palestine,
00:04:00
Speaker
she actively scorned Arab American voters, Arab American voters, Muslim American voters, Palestinian American voters. And we saw that with her, her how her campaigning in and Michigan, for example, kind of played out. So for example, she went on ah on a campaign swing with Liz Cheney and kind of really embraced this moderate or rightward shift that the Democrats really leaned into in this election cycle. And for obvious reasons, I mean, not It's not just Arab Americans and Muslim Americans who see people like the Chinese as as know violent war criminals. It's a vast subsection of Americans who see that as well and who would agree with that framework. So I think that really not only turned a lot of voters off from the Harris campaign and supporting Harris, but it was really seen as as kind of rubbing salt in the wound or or spitting in the face of ah these voters who are already hurting.
00:04:54
Speaker
from you know losing family members to this genocide in Gaza or Lebanon or the wider region. And that was seen as you know not only was she not indicating any substantial policy changes between her and Biden, she was actually taking a steps step further and saying,
00:05:10
Speaker
no, we will actually throw you to this, cast you to the side. And and we are actually embracing you know the far right neocons who who started the forever wars that have really torn your families apart. So in that sense, Harris kind of dropped the ball to say the least in terms of you know taking the right steps to win this election. And Trump kind of saw that opportunity and he swung in and and he kind of courted these disaffected Arab American voters basically saying, making kind of empty promises, obviously, that he was going to somehow end the war and the genocide. The issue here is that obviously, a lot of the the communities that ended up giving their support to Trump are are inherently conservative, right? A lot of them are are conservative Muslim communities who would have voted Republican anyways, or or would have potentially leaned towards voting Republican.
00:06:04
Speaker
regardless of the situation in Gaza and and Lebanon. But Harris's interaction with them, her decision to scorn them, only served to push them further into Trump's arms. And there was this one example of a Muslim community in Michigan that ended up coming out in support for Donald Trump.
00:06:22
Speaker
What had happened was they had reached out to the Harris campaign to to meet with them and and have a conversation, open a dialogue with them, and they were and they were rejected. So this was kind of a clear distinction and priorities between the two. And it's clear that the Trump campaign was a lot smarter, more tactical, and courting these voters, even if in fact they were you know making empty promises, and at least they played this this political game. That's something that Harris didn't play at all.
00:06:50
Speaker
And you know the question of whether that actually loss of the election is a different question. And Tariq, you touched upon this a little bit, but what we saw throughout this election cycle was really a certain circle of progressives um being divided on this issue of Gaza and whether or not to vote for the Democratic
Debates Within Liberal Circles
00:07:13
Speaker
Party. And I think it really revealed, at least for me, who considers genocide a red line. Now, there was this argument among some so-called progressive circles that voting for Harris was a safer option because who knows what Trump would do and the implication there was that Trump will be worse for Palestinians. But as you said, you know, ah Harris ran on this ticket of neither being Biden nor being Trump and yet at the same time was very, very pro-Israel and very pro-Geneside. Can you talk to us a bit more about this this liberal argument that was sort of engulfing certain spaces?
00:07:55
Speaker
I would say that the debate amongst Democrats between whether it was Biden or or Harrison versus Trump was that you know the Biden-Harris campaign at the very least represented a lesser evil between the two. And I think that you know it's it's on paper, it's it's that's something that's easy to to say right because of all the rhe rhetorical differences between the two campaigns and between the two individuals.
00:08:20
Speaker
But I think in practice that that debate is a lot deeper. And unfortunately, just the toxicity of this specific election and the amount that was at stake made it extremely difficult to have this conversation about actual policy nuances between the two administrations and between the two candidates and their you know strategies and tactics. It made it impossible to have that debate.
00:08:45
Speaker
because so many Americans felt there was so much on the line for this election and there was actual, deep, justified tension and fear. And so in that sense that you know if I could describe, I guess, that that discourse that kind of engulfed these liberal circles in the US in order, it was toxic. It was hopelessly toxic. And I think This is largely because of the unique dynamics of this particular election, know the high stakes of it with quote unquote democracy on the line. The justified fear of Trump made that all came together, all those factors kind of came together to make
00:09:19
Speaker
to create a sense that Democrats and liberals needed to maintain a level of party loyalty. And then they were very, very hesitant to criticize Biden, to criticize Biden's handling of of the genocide in Gaza, to to call out his complicity.
00:09:36
Speaker
And I think ultimately what that did was that caused people to then lash out at those who did criticize Biden and and those who did call out his complicity and even more against those who simply could not bring themselves to vote for Biden or Harris because of their complicity in this genocide, because of the fact that people fundamentally found it extremely difficult to give their active of support to any candidate.
00:10:00
Speaker
who was facilitating the genocide of their family, their friends, their loved ones. And that applies to both both Harris and Trump. I think what's left out of of a lot of the current discussion about the results of the election were that, sure, some Arab Americans voted for Trump or voted for the Green Party. Sure, some did. But the bigger bigger story here is the amount of people who were actually left out, who stayed home, who just couldn't bring themselves to vote at all.
00:10:26
Speaker
So basically tying this back to your question, I mean, this toxicity made it impossible to have an actual debate about that the policy nuances that distinguish Biden's administration or Harris's future administration from Trump. And I think that now what we're seeing, unfortunately, is a lot of liberals who are lashing out and and and scapegoating and blaming the Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, Palestinian Americans,
00:10:52
Speaker
for Harris's loss, even though before you know before the election going into it, they were saying that you know these these communities don't have any sway in the actual voting results. And again, going back to you know whether these voter decisions how ah had an impact on the election results, that's a bigger question. But at the end of the day,
00:11:12
Speaker
The unfortunate thing is, Harris and the wider Democratic Party lost this election for a range of reasons. And you know while their scorning of of the Arab American vote definitely played a role, it was not the leading factor. And now a lot of liberals are obviously blaming us and blaming Arab Americans for this and refusing to learn about the wider, more more systemic issues that contributed to the failure.
Public Opinion vs. US Policy
00:11:37
Speaker
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00:11:49
Speaker
I mean, it's just really the the audacity is astounding, the fact that they are lashing out at those who couldn't with good conscious vote for a party that facilitated a genocide rather than lash out at the party itself. But really, this this isn't surprising in the context of American politics.
00:12:09
Speaker
The Democratic Party is historically more supportive or has been more supportive of the Israeli regime throughout history than the Republican Party. I think it was in 86, Biden gave that famous speech where he said that if there wasn't an Israel, they would have to invent an Israel and that it was the best investment they had ever made. So really, the question remains, is there any room for any kind of pro-Palestinian policies anyway within this kind of system?
00:12:44
Speaker
I think that's a very hard question to answer. And I think it's a timely one because just yesterday the US Senate voted down a resolution introduced or legislation introduced by Bernie Sanders that would block a portion of the $20 billion dollars worth of of arms and munitions sales to to Israel. I think only 18 or 19 senators actually voted in support of the move. And that I think is something like 18 to 19% of the Senate who would support this cutting of of military aid to Israel or or an arms embargo against Israel, even though it wasn't even a full arms embargo, when in fact over 61% of Americans across the political spectrum, so not just on the left, not just amongst Democrats, more than 61% of Americans actually do support an arms embargo on Israel. So I think what that shows is is just how out of touch
00:13:35
Speaker
the US ruling class is with with the actual demands and interests of the voters they supposedly represent. um But it also goes to show just how little hope there is in actually affecting policy change in the US within potentially the next few years or even our lifetime.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I think that over you know over recent months and years, we've seen a ah real shift in public opinion in the US. So for the first time, a growing number of Americans actually sympathize with Palestinians more than they do Israelis. A growing number of Americans actually see are are beginning to see Israel as the be violent apartheid entity that it is. And that is being translated in data like the fact that more than 60% of Americans are are supportive of an arms embargo However, it's it's in many ways reaching the point where it's kind of analogous to the the gun issue, the gun restrictions issue, and that the vast majority of Americans want tighter restrictions around gun usage and gun ownership. However, due to the realities of partisan politics and and the realities of the gun lobby, those voters aren't heard from. And and and that's a very similar dynamic
00:14:45
Speaker
is being applied. And we're seeing a very similar dynamic when it comes to US-Israel policy. And I don't think it's impossible to fundamentally change the quote unquote, special US-Israel relationship, but I think it's going to take a lot more than shifting public opinion. And obviously, we're not done shifting a public opinion. This is a process that's going to take years, if not decades. But I think that what's going to be needed to actually shift US policy towards Israel, to actually start chipping away at at the unconditional support at the US has given to Israel since essentially 1967, is to start building the lobbying infrastructure that can compete with the pro-Israel lobby. And I think that's just the unfortunate reality of US politics in which
00:15:36
Speaker
democratic will is subordinated to the interests of lobby organizations and and different interest groups. So going to your question of whether there is kind of the space for fundamental policy change in the US, there is. If the pro-Palestine movement can build this lobbying infrastructure, but that is the bigger question, is if the pro-Palestine movement in the US can build a lobbying infrastructure like Pete with pro-Israel lobby. And that I think is there's a potential for that in the long run. But this is something thatll that'll take years, if not decades, to actually start seeing shifts in policy. And I think that you know that vote today, ah the US Senate vote on on whether to block a portion of military aid to Israel is kind of very emblematic of this wider national dynamic in that it's also important to note that it took more than a year of genocide. It took more than 43,000 dead Palestinians and plus you know potentially hundreds of thousands of more when you count indirect deaths or those missing.
00:16:40
Speaker
They took all of this just for 19 US senators to vote in support of blocking a portion of US military aid to Israel. So what happens if there's a ceasefire someday? right What happens if the situation in Gaza returns to pre-October 7th norms, which was suffocating blockade, which was apartheid, which was you know suffocating military occupation?
00:17:05
Speaker
that bare minimum support that the this fraction of the US ruling class that's given will also disappear. So I think that, in short, what that means is that the US is never going to...
US-Israel Relationship Complexity
00:17:20
Speaker
I think what we need to shift in terms of how we look at this is that you know there's there's hopes that the US will act as ah as an honest peace broker here. right But the truth is the US and Israel act and lock step together. you know This is their genocide, this is their war, and their interests are essentially eye to eye. And I think this means
00:17:44
Speaker
that we need to be of course you know we need to continue our efforts to shift U.S. public opinion. We need to continue our efforts to shift U.S. policy through increased lobbying and and and through increased lobbying efforts. But I think we also need to just focus on increasing our support and the rest of the world. And you know as the international community kind of shifts away from this unipolar order right and into more of a multi-polar international system where someday the US won't hold all force of mechanisms when it comes to international law or international methods of of enforcement, I think we need to be focusing on alternative alliances and alternative relationships to build that don't solely rely on trying to convince America
00:18:29
Speaker
you know a settler colonial entity in itself to essentially forget about its its history and forget about its, quote unquote, special relationship with Israel. I think that we need to kind of diversify how we approach that fundamental relationship.
00:18:43
Speaker
And just on that point, Dada, I think it's crucial to understand the Israeli regime as not only a product of Western imperialism, but also as this quasi-U.S. outpost in the Middle East that continues to serve American interests in the region. And so it's a very codependent relationship, and it's in many ways also an existential one.
00:19:08
Speaker
Without US material and and diplomatic support, Israel would face serious challenges to its existence as a settler-colonial and apartheid entity. And vice versa, the US would also face serious challenges to American unipolarity.
00:19:25
Speaker
I want to switch gears a bit and ask you about this incoming Trump administration.
Middle East Policy: Trump vs. Biden
00:19:33
Speaker
Firstly, how do you think it's going to compare with the Biden administration vis-a-vis the genocide in Gaza and the broader US-Israel relationship?
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah. And i think I think with this question, we're kind of turning back to that that eternal debate about which administration actually represented the lesser evil between you know Biden versus Trump. I think, unfortunately, we fundamentally missed the fact that you know Biden and Trump fundamentally share very similar, if not the same, ultimate visions for the Middle East. And where they differ is in tactics. So it's it's kind of the difference here is is in style versus substance.
00:20:10
Speaker
I think we can start by just comparing the policy resumes prior to prior to this genocide, right? Trump kind of made history by taking unprecedented moves like moving the the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. um He recognized Israeli sovereignty over occupied Syria's Golan, and he cut funding to UNRWA, and these were all substantial steps that marked huge deviation from the typical US position of trying to masquerade as this honest peace broker. And so he kind of like shook the ground in that sense. But so when when Biden came into office in 2020, he really did have an opportunity to make his support for quote unquote two state solution clear. And and basically all he had would have had to do was the bare minimum of reversing this these like earth shattering Trump administration moves, right? That
00:21:03
Speaker
um kind of upended decades of the US diplomacy in Israel-Palestine. But he didn't. He kept basically all of all of the Trump administration's policy changes. He kept the US embassy in Jerusalem. um the ah He continues to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the Golan.
00:21:22
Speaker
And while he did resume funding to UNRWA temporarily, he was quick to remove it again when Israel ah launched its latest smear campaign against the organization. So in many ways, Trump and Biden's actual policy resume looks almost identical. And this was before October 7th, before the genocide.
00:21:43
Speaker
Now, post-genocide, as I mentioned earlier, the Biden administration has given Israel more military and financial support than any other administration in U.S. history to this day, in addition to the $3.8 billion dollars that as Israel already receives in military aid.
00:22:00
Speaker
the ah The Biden administration has allocated over $22 billion to Israel for military military assistance. So this kind of really bolsters Biden's claim to be Israel's best friend. And then Biden's you know hopes of of gaining that title of Israel's closest ally, because in the material sense, he has given Israel more support than any other administration in US history.
00:22:23
Speaker
I think this underscores the fact that we need to remember that that Trump and Biden have essentially the same goals in the Middle East and and where they differ is style and and rhetoric. Perhaps the biggest difference between them is is the rhetoric they use. you know Trump is known for not mincing words. And and for example, he said things like he would if he had been president this whole time, he would have let given Israel the tools it needed to quote unquote, finish the job. He's used the the term Palestinian as an actual slur against his political opponents. And then people say that, okay, well well, on the other hand, Biden has expressed concern for civilian casualties. He talks about international law and he uses lofty human rights rhetoric. But in in many ways, I think that has actually done more damage than Trump's blunt honesty because it
00:23:15
Speaker
distracts both Americans and the international community from the fact that the Biden administration has given Israel all the tools needed to get away with genocide for a year, to carry out this genocide, and to escalate across the region. At the end of the day, Israel is finishing the job in Gaza, in Lebanon, and across the region.
00:23:36
Speaker
regardless of what words you know or the Biden administration chooses to use. And I think that's something that's been fundamentally missed from this debate between you know which administration represents a lesser evil. What we should expect is essentially just a ah ah closer relationship with Israel, and one that's a lot more unapologetic. But we also need to recognize that Trump is known to be unpredictable, and and he's known to be a lot more transactional and self-interested than Biden. So where Biden was kind of a self about Zionist, right and and he was a proud Zionist, and he really made sacrifices or what he saw as sacrifices for what he believed to be Israel's self-interest and Israel's defense, i don't think I don't see Trump doing the same thing or taking the same approach. So for example, where where Biden was willing to deploy US troops and assets to come to Israel's defense,
00:24:33
Speaker
There's a question as to whether Trump would do the same because he might see that as violating his America First principles or making it more difficult for him to achieve his ah wider goals of, for example, expanding the Abraham Accords, reaching an agreement between as Israel and Saudi Arabia. so where where Biden was willing to sacrifice US and regional interests for the defense of Israel, Trump might not be as willing to do so. That's where we might see start to see some differences in how the two administrations interact with Israel directly. But then it's also extremely important to to consider the fact that Trump is going to be surrounding himself with some of the most bloodthirsty, neo-con war hawks in US history. So these are people like Brian Hook, Marco Rubio,
00:25:21
Speaker
Mike Huckabee, Jared Kushner, who all will attempt to drag Trump into more confrontational US foreign policy in the Middle East. They'll they'll have no reservations about deploying US forces and assets. And I think this will come into conflict a lot with Trump's America First approach and Trump's reluctance to to actually spend money and and actually devote resources to these conflicts. But in many ways, I think i think the more concerning
00:25:52
Speaker
fact, are the people that but Trump surrounds him with. And these are the people who will go to bat for any wider regional war and and definitely try to to drag the administration in with it. But i think it's I think it's really important to to remember that at the end of the day, going back to what I was saying earlier, is that both Biden and and Trump essentially share the same vision for the region.
00:26:17
Speaker
And how they go about it is is the question. And I think you know in many ways, a lot of these quote unquote worst case scenarios were have been underway this whole time. you know Israel has been carrying out a genocide in Gaza. Israel has killed more than, I think, 3,000 people in Lebanon now. the The assumption that Biden represented a ah lesser evil when compared to Trump assumes that he was doing anything at all to constrain Israel, which, in fact, we see the opposite. He, at the end of the day, Israel, everything it needed to get away with genocide and regional escalation, while also
00:26:55
Speaker
distracting everyone with empty human rights rhetoric. I think it's fair to say the US foreign policy will always have devastating consequences for Palestinians on the ground, but I wanted to ask you a bit about what this means closer to home.
Challenges for Palestine Advocacy
00:27:13
Speaker
What does the incoming Trump administration mean for the US-Palestine organizing moving forward?
00:27:22
Speaker
I think it means that we have our work cut out for us. We have a clearer enemy and a clearer message in that you know the struggle for Palestinian liberation is indelibly tied to a wider struggle for democracy because we've seen how tactics that are currently being used to suppress Palestinians can be turned around and and used against you know Americans at large.
00:27:41
Speaker
When we see this, for example, and in efforts to silence Palestinian advocacy and activism by constricting our constitutional rights, like freedom of speech and expression, that's something that's going to affect not just us, not just Palestinian and Palestinian Americans, but any American who who opposes the incoming Trump administration's far-right agenda. So that's that's a concern to everyone, not just us.
00:28:05
Speaker
But I think it's also really important to recognize that this crackdown on Palestinian solidarity and this crackdown on the the wider movement has been ongoing for years, if not decades now, and is very much bipartisan. The US House is going to be voting on HR 9495, which is a resolution that will give the incoming Trump administration or any any official within the Trump administration the ability to remove the nonprofit status of any organization that they deem to be a terrorist organization or supporting terrorists. And they don't need to provide evidence for that. They just need to be accusation. This is a bill that will be passed with bipartisan support. It was actually voted down a week ago, but it's being reintroduced and will only need a simple majority to pass it. But in the in the first iteration of the vote,
00:28:56
Speaker
over 50 Democrats actually supported the measure. So it's really important to recognize that you know this this crackdown on on Palestinian solidarity has been a bipartisan process. And some of the most some of the most vocal opponents of Palestinian rights and some of the most vocal opponents of of Palestinian solidarity organizing here in the US have been Democrats themselves.
00:29:18
Speaker
So while we recognize that this process has been bipartisan, and while we recognize that both Democrats and Republicans have kind of led the charge and and efforts to silence the movement, we also need to reckon with the fact that with Trump's you know trifecta control of US governance, with his you know with Trump in the White House, Republicans in control of of the US Senate, and Republicans and in control of the House as well, that's going to make it a lot easier for them to pass bills and and get away with much more sweeping measures that target the Palestinian solidarity movement in the US. And we're already seeing this with initiatives like Project Esther, which was recently announced by the Heritage Foundation, which also published the infamous Project 2025, which aims to kind of take advantage of of Trump's second term in office and and completely reshuffle US democracy. and And basically Project Esther
00:30:15
Speaker
recognizes that there has been this fundamental shift in US public opinion on on Israel-Palestine, it's this growing support for Palestine amongst you know everyday Americans. And what they want to do is essentially, since they've lost yeah the the argument, since they can't respond to the fact that more and more Americans are becoming critical of Israel, they aim to silence Palestinians and they aim to silence the Palestinian solidarity movement.
00:30:41
Speaker
by targeting US-based organizations or Palestine organizations with lawfare and, in that sense, you know shutting them out of the conversation entirely. So I think that, again, you know while this process is very much a bipartisan process, it's going to accelerate and it's going to intensify under the Trump administration.
00:31:02
Speaker
and that is something that we need to brace for. But I think it also opens up new opportunities because I think it, in many ways, very much like the Trump administration itself in terms of its policy directly with Israel, it lays out the reality for what it is, right? And it exposes and in this case, it exposes the crackdown on the Palestinian solidarity movement as a sweeping crackdown on all all of our constitutional rights here in the U.S. And I think that is going to be something that we as a movement need to leverage in order to mobilize opposition. You know, the question of of how liberals react to this to this assault on all of our constitutional rights is to be seen. Dardit, thanks for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine.
00:31:57
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
00:32:05
Speaker
Rethinking Palestine is brought to you by Ashabaka, the Palestinian policy network. Ashabaka is the only global independent Palestinian think tank whose mission is to produce critical policy analysis and collectively imagine a new policymaking paradigm for Palestine and Palestinians worldwide. For more information or to donate to support our work, visit al-ashabaka.org. And importantly, don't forget to subscribe to Rethinking Palestine, wherever you listen to podcasts.