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Is the Tide Changing on the Genocide in Gaza? With Tariq Kenney-Shawa
591 Plays2 hours ago
Al-Shabaka's US policy fellow, Tariq Kenney-Shawa, joins Co-Director Yara Hawari to examine whether mainstream media and political discourses are shifting their stances on the ongoing genocide in Gaza, and what those changes could mean for potential accountability.
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Transcript
Indifference to Elite Commentary
00:00:00
Speaker
I don't care that Piers Morgan uttered the word genocide. I don't care that The Guardian published an editorial recognizing the the horrific situation in Gaza.
00:00:12
Speaker
I care about the millions of people who have hit the streets consistently in solidarity with Palestine. And I think it's there where we'll see real possibility for change.
00:00:30
Speaker
From Ashabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, I am Yara Hawari, and this is Rethinking Palestine.
00:00:40
Speaker
For more than two months, the Israeli regime has been preventing any form of aid from entering Gaza. It's important to clarify that the aid that was entering prior to this was a drop in the ocean and was far from meeting the basic needs of a population facing genocide.
00:00:55
Speaker
But the situation has significantly worsened over the last few months and hundreds of thousands of people are now literally starving.
Escalating Tensions in Gaza
00:01:04
Speaker
In addition to this forced starvation campaign, the Israeli army has decided to expand its military ground offensive and bombardments under the omnist title of Operation Gideon's Chariots.
00:01:17
Speaker
Netanyahu wants to gain what he calls operational control over the entire Gaza Strip. So dire is the situation now that even some of Israel's staunchest allies, including the UK and Canada, have rebuked Netanyahu.
00:01:33
Speaker
This has also coincided with a shift in some mainstream media spaces. And a common phrase that has been thrown around recently is that the tide is turning on the genocide in Gaza.
00:01:44
Speaker
But is this really the case? Joining me to discuss this Shabaka's policy fellow, Tarek Keneshawa. Tarek, thank you for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine.
00:01:57
Speaker
Thank you for having me on, Yara, as always. So this phrase of the tide turning has been used a lot, especially in the last two weeks. What are people talking about exactly?
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I want to talk about like whether the tide is actually turning. I'm not sure that's a fully accurate statement. I think, of course, what we've what we've been noticing over the past couple of weeks and maybe over the past two months has been more voices from the mainstream media space that are um maybe not not saying genocide explicitly, but more outright condemning um you know the indefensible, which is Israel's starvation policy on
Media Narratives on Gaza
00:02:36
Speaker
Gaza. And it seems to me, my reading of this is that there has been more of a visceral reaction to the reports and images of starving children coming out of Gaza.
00:02:47
Speaker
than there have been to the 18 months of aerial bombardment and killing through and bombardment bombs and bullets and all that. um And I think you know maybe there's ah you know there's there might be a conversation to be had about you know whether you know there's difference perceive a difference in people people perceive a difference in how people are being killed in that sense, whether it's through starvation or bombs. And you know maybe maybe some people believe that the starvation tactic is more indefensible than than blowing up a school because they buy into Israel's narrative that they're targeting Hamas. But I think that it all kind of ties down to, I guess, what I would call the Trump effect.
00:03:28
Speaker
And you know since coming into office, Israel has been acting with even more of ah blank check under Trump's administration than they were under Biden. And like you said, I mean, before the ceasefire collapsed, ah Israel was only permitting a performative trickle of aid into Gaza.
00:03:46
Speaker
But I think that aid was very performative, right? What the Biden administration did and did so well was creating a situation in which Israel could get away with the genocide in the long run. And they did so by providing this facade of sorts, right? you Using this humanitarian rhetoric, talking about the importance of getting aid in. And I think to many in the international community and in the mainstream media, they saw this as this basically as facilitating a situation in which you know this was a gruesome war, but at least you know the powers that be are trying to get some aid in, period.
00:04:21
Speaker
And what's happened since the ceasefire is not very strictly. like Israel has not allowed any aid in and the Trump administration hasn't engaged in that performative aid provision mission. right And I think that is the difference. right That's the difference we're seeing is that you know while the fundamentals of this genocide remain the same,
00:04:42
Speaker
right the you know the the killing from the air, the killing from the ground, and the mass starvation campaign. It's become a lot more transparent as to what's happening. and And the Trump administration has kind of done away with any of that performative the performative steps that the Biden administration took to ah insulate Israel from international criticism by pretending there was an aid mechanism going on.
00:05:07
Speaker
And I think that is is really what has changed over the last two
Mainstream Media Critique
00:05:13
Speaker
months or so. Dari, you mentioned voices in the mainstream media, and we've seen ah editorials from the likes of The Guardian and The Financial Times really damning pieces on the West's inaction and Israeli aggression.
00:05:31
Speaker
Pieces that I think would have been more welcome 19 months ago and and feel far too late now. um But also, and and to be quite frank, entirely hypocritical because there's absolutely, in these in these editorials, there's absolutely no...
00:05:47
Speaker
reflection on the role that the mainstream media has played in manufacturing consent for the genocide to take place in the first place and um for the situation of of mass and forced starvation.
00:05:58
Speaker
Lest we forget that these media outlets were parroting Israeli propaganda lines for months on end, um whilst also systematically dehumanizing Palestinians. You know, we didn't reach this point out of nowhere. There were steps ah systematic steps that were taken to get to a point where Palestinians are so dehumanized that only now people are ah beginning to be horrified.
00:06:23
Speaker
You know, even Piers Morgan has had this epiphany. But what's noticeable about the shift and and you mentioned this, it's not that all along this has been genocidal, it's that only now is it becoming genocidal, as if the bombing, the killing, the the wanton destruction, everything else up until this point was fine, but now this is um where the red line has been crossed. And I'm wondering if you think This is also, i mean, you mentioned about sort of the the lack of that performative action, but is this also because people are conscious of a reckoning ah with complicity in the genocide?
00:07:08
Speaker
It really depends. when When we're talking about the mainstream media, I think it really varies platform to platform. So, for example, you know, like you said, The Guardian and The Financial Times have are both two great examples of of relatively mainstream publications who have come out with very, very strongly worded kind condemnations of the widespread complicity and in the genocide in Gaza.
00:07:32
Speaker
um But then on the other side of the spectrum, we have the New York Times, we have BBC News, which very much seen as these liberal bastions of objectivity and and really maintained that um reputation.
00:07:45
Speaker
And they have have really yet to reverse their complicity and and their role in manufacturing consent for this genocide. So for example, like the BBC continues to to describe any basically any medical source in Gaza as Hamas-run or Hamas-affiliated, which automatically right off the bat for many people is seen as ah as a means of of discounting any reports from Gaza, period.
00:08:09
Speaker
um So I think that first of all, like there there is this, I think when we're talking about the tides shifting, it's, I really don't want to jump the gun. I want to, I want to be realistic about who is, who is shifting these tides. And um so I think there's, there's a long way to go before the tides actually shift when it comes to other mainstream platforms like the New York times
Social Media's Role in Narrative Shift
00:08:29
Speaker
and BBC. But I do think that these other, other platforms like the financial times or the guardian are recognizing what is absolutely a shift in public opinion.
00:08:38
Speaker
And um that means growing opposition to to israel's Israel's genocide in Gaza ah that is that is especially pronounced and in the West, in the US.
00:08:50
Speaker
For months now, we've the the US public has been exposed to images of the atrocities being committed in Gaza. And and that's largely thanks to social media, which which makes the proliferation of those images possible. And that wouldn't happen without without social media.
00:09:07
Speaker
And of course, there's a lot of censoring and there's, there's a lot of, there's, there's many ways that news and reports from Gaza are being censored and and and silenced, but still a lot of those images get out. And I think platforms like financial times, platforms like the guardian platforms, like the the Washington post are responding to that shift in public opinion by saying, by, by kind of like recognizing the fact that more and more people are, are kind of like recognizing the indefensible nature of this genocide.
00:09:35
Speaker
And it's getting, it, i'm not I'm not sure about you know the legal aspects of it because you know these these outlets manufactured consent for the Iraq war and have never you know faced any any consequences for that.
00:09:50
Speaker
But I do believe in the saying that five years from now, 10 years from now, everyone is going to say that they were against this, right? And I think this part of part of this is a reckoning in that sense. you know it's it's ah It's a recognition by these platforms that as as more and more people turn against this and and see this as completely indefensible, they're going to want to be on the right side of history. And some platforms are are just further along in this process than other and ive others. And I have no doubt that even the New York Times and the BBCs are going to reach this point.
00:10:23
Speaker
um But I think you know by the time that they do, it's going to be it's going to be far too late. And we know from history, after World War II, for example, suddenly everyone had been part of the resistance against the Nazis. that When Mandela was freed, suddenly everyone had been part of the anti-apartheid movement. So there is precedence for for this kind of behaviour.
Diplomatic Responses and Performative Politics
00:10:46
Speaker
I want to switch gears a bit and think about sort of the the diplomatic level because we have also seen some slightly stronger r rhetoric um from some of Israel's staunchest allies, as i as I mentioned earlier, in a joint statement released on Monday the 19th of May.
00:11:06
Speaker
um the The British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, French President Emmanuel Macron, And the Canadian Prime Minister, Mark Carney, said that their respective countries would take, quote, concrete actions, end quote, if the Israeli regime continued its um expansion of military operations in Gaza. And then they also, of course, called for humanitarian aid continued.
00:11:30
Speaker
um immediately allowed in and this was a sort of stop the this latest military assault or else kind of statement but I think the the or else is not particularly compelling especially given the the concrete actions that the UK for example has taken so far which has been the suspension of negotiations over a future trade deal, um the summoning of the Israeli ambassador to ambassador to the UK and sanctioning a few um settlers in the West Bank.
00:12:03
Speaker
So, you know, these are really very performative actions, um which amount nothing more than slap on the wrist. um And of course, I don't need to remind everyone that there there was a red line and sort of ultimatum that was given before during this genocide back in 2024.
00:12:23
Speaker
Rafah was considered a red line. um We all remember when the hands-off Rafah sort of social media post went viral and we saw a lot of other countries branding around this sort of what else is but Israel then did proceed to invade Rafah and we saw what happened it was completely decimated and the thing is the UK could be really strong on this it does have leverage because the UK is still selling arms to Israel arms that are used to kill Palestinians and
00:12:59
Speaker
They are still flying ah RAF planes from their bases in Cyprus to fly over Gaza on reconnaissance missions um where they share that information collected with the Israelis. So they could, if they wanted to, set in motion concrete actions that could lead to, for example, an arms embargo.
00:13:18
Speaker
But the reality is, under Keir Starmer's government, they they won't do that. So I'm just wondering if you think there is a possibility that some countries will take more concrete actions, unlike the UK, which is, you know, obviously performing outrage.
00:13:36
Speaker
I'm glad you kind of brought up that the Rafah red line example, because I think what I'm seeing now is where that tide shifting stops, right? You know, the tide might be shifting when it comes to public opinion, the tide might be shifting when it comes to even a substantial section of of the mainstream media.
00:13:53
Speaker
um And I think that, you know, the the governments of, of you know you know, Britain, Canada, France, they're they're reacting to that, right? um But I very much see them as reacting because they want to return the paradigm to the Biden status quo, right? Which was the continuation of genocide, but under this you know facade of of international law and processes and and human rights and and minimal aid provision.
00:14:20
Speaker
um So basically what I see and and in Britain's actions and Canada's actions and France's actions um While it is you know they're absolutely taking steps, quote unquote, whether those steps will actually implement will actually affect the situation is an entirely different question.
00:14:36
Speaker
And if you listen, for example, Lammy's address to to Parliament, he was making a very heartfelt and desperate appeal to the Israeli people, right? If you listen to him.
00:14:47
Speaker
And he was saying, just give us give us something to work with. And I think Basil El-Smotrich kind of responded to him directly when he said, very publicly about you know why they decided to let in those, I think it was 90 aid trucks that they they eventually let in, in total over the week. And I think ah the first day it was nine aid trucks that they let in.
00:15:10
Speaker
And he was saying, Smutrich was saying, you know we're only doing this so that our international allies can get off our back and let us finish the job in Gaza. That's the only reason why we're doing this. And he he very explicitly said, he was saying like these these nine aid trucks, they're not going to, they're not even a drop in the water. They're not even like, they don't even, they won't fundamentally change the situation at all. Palestinians are still starving.
00:15:35
Speaker
This is just, you know, the This is just to, you know, again, to get our international allies that we need. We need the weapons from. We need the financial support. We need the diplomatic shielding from to get off our backs.
00:15:47
Speaker
And so while it kind of, you know, goes back to what we were discussing earlier about it's the Trump effect, the traditional liberal world is saying, and and what I mean by the traditional liberal world is Britain, Canada, France,
00:16:02
Speaker
and And their approach now, what they're saying is that this Trump approved process of not let it of not even engaging in the performative aid provisions, that's not okay.
00:16:15
Speaker
But the Biden paradigm, that's fine. We can return to the Biden paradigm of of you know full-on genocide with a performative trickle of aid. That is something that we we support.
00:16:26
Speaker
Israel, work with us. Let us get back to that paradigm and you can continue to finish the job. That's basically it. And i think that you know I think that when it comes to other countries and you know across across the global South, i think we will continue to see countries stepping up. I think doing trying to do more countries like South Africa um continuing to pressure countries like Colombia joining in that process. um Even even you know Spain seems to be taking a stronger a stronger stance. But again
00:16:57
Speaker
I think we have to think about the loopholes in each of their, you know, in each of the steps that they're taking. and And at the end of the day, the question of whether that'll be enough to actually deter Israel is an entirely different question. And, and you know, the answer to that in short is no.
Shifting International Positions
00:17:15
Speaker
If you're enjoying this podcast, please visit our website, al-shabaka.org, where you will find more Palestinian policy analysis and where you can join our mailing list and donate to support our work.
00:17:27
Speaker
who So Spain, the Spanish parliament passed motion not long ago calling on the government to impose ah an arms embargo on Israel in response to its assault on Gaza and it was introduced by the the leftist alliance um which is part of the ruling coalition.
00:17:47
Speaker
And then it also recommends reforming Spain's foreign trade ah legislation to prohibit military agreements with any state accused of committing genocide or crimes against humanity. But the motion is non-binding.
00:18:05
Speaker
um meaning that there are still ah quite a few stages um that it has to go through before it becomes binding resolution. And the EU also announced that it was going to review its trade agreements with Israel. so it's It's difficult to see um or to think about these actions as anything more than performative. I think Spain is is possibly the one where we can maybe think about and more seriously as ah as a country that is willing to take more concrete action.
00:18:39
Speaker
um But it does feel, all of this feels far too late. We're also seeing people pointing to things shifting in in Israel.
00:18:52
Speaker
um And in particular, they're pointing um to statements said by opposition politicians, including Ehud Barak and Yair Golan, who is the opposition leader.
00:19:05
Speaker
And it feels like people are really sort of grasping um desperately on onto anything. Like, you know, when you talked about David Lammy, it's sort of really making a plea to to to Israel, to Israeli society, you know, give us something.
00:19:24
Speaker
It feels like this is sort of in that same vein. Ye'er Golan, the opposition leader, he said that, recently he said that Israel is on the way to becoming ah pariah state like South Africa was, and he said that A sane country does not fight against civilians, does not kill babies as a hobby, and does not give itself the aim of expelling populations.
00:19:49
Speaker
Now, this went viral in Israeli society, and people were so shocked by this, and Netanyahu attacked him um and accused him of blood libel, of course.
00:19:59
Speaker
um But some in the international community are seeing this as a sign of hope, and they're already positioning um Ergolan as this... antidote to Netanyahu. But it's worth reminding people who this man is. Yeah, Golan is, of course, an ex-Israeli army general, as they all are.
00:20:18
Speaker
And at the start of the genocide, he was enthusiastically calling for the starvation of all of Gaza. In fact, on the 13th of October, 2023, he said the following. He said,
00:20:31
Speaker
First of all, close all the electricity switches to Gaza. I think that in this battle, it is forbidden to allow a humanitarian effort. We need to say to them, listen, until the captives are released from our side, you can die from starvation.
00:20:47
Speaker
It's totally legitimate. So Ye'eh Golan having a change of heart or is he just reading the room and preparing himself to be the favourite of the international community to take over after Netanyahu?
00:21:01
Speaker
I think the latter. And I think also this shift is not happening in Israel. you know we I don't know, Dara, if you've seen those latest polls that were done in Israel with regards to support of the genocide, but overwhelmingly Jewish-Israeli citizens...
Israeli Public Opinion and Government Actions
00:21:18
Speaker
support the ongoing assault, um the ongoing starvation, and the expulsion plans for Palestinians in Gaza. I very much see it just as ah as a matter of style over a substance, right? And and it's it it these people have tactical differences with the current Israeli government, right? Yair Golan, we heard a similar statement from Ehud Olmert, the former former Israeli PM, who I think said,
00:21:44
Speaker
who called it you know this the ongoing genocide, a war of annihilation. And I think that at the end of the day, Golan, Olmert, Netanyahu, and Smotrich, they all have the same ultimate objective, which is you know kind of based on the idea of of maximum land with minimum Palestinians. However, Olmert in my opinion, and Golan, that type of Israeli is a little bit more strategic and recognizes that the best way for Israel to achieve its end goal of maximum land with minimum Palestinians is to do so ah bit more gradually and and to shield their actions behind lofty, empty facades of of human rights rhetoric, like Israel is the most moral army in the world and and stuff like that.
00:22:31
Speaker
And they recognize that absolutely what Netanyahu is saying and what Smotrich is saying, their rhetoric combined with their actions in Gaza is absolutely turning into Israel into a pariah state.
00:22:42
Speaker
So I think it's just, yeah again, it's just it's just that's a great microcosm of Israel as a whole, right? Because It's just a matter of people with different figures with different tactics and and the same objectives. And then it ties into the wider population, right? I mean, if I think it was over 80% of the Israeli population supports the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and then 47% of Israelis supports the extermination of Gaza's population.
00:23:05
Speaker
not Not much else needs to be said about that. So I think we can absolutely read the relatively minor tactical differences between Israeli leaders as just differences in style over over substance. And i think it's also important to kind of look into the future and imagine what would happen Israel Netanyahu is not going to be in power in Israel forever.
00:23:29
Speaker
um Obviously, Israel's right wing, the the likes of Smotrich and Ben-Gavir, they're there to stay and and they're only proliferating. But all it would take is a more quote unquote moderate government in power in Israel for governments across the West, the US, the UK, to basically throw their arms arms up in the air and declare victory and say, now we can continue returning to our status quo of unconditional support of Israel.
00:23:57
Speaker
um And we can be happy about it. We can be proud about it. And I think that you know Israel can continue it's its literal actions on the ground the same way. as And if they you know if they had different leadership that didn't say it so plainly, that would fundamentally change things. And um I think that, again, we're we're going back to the same thing where going back to David Lammy's speech, I mean, they're he he's not saying that they're cutting Israel off. He's not saying that they're really applying conditions to its relationship with Israel. What he's saying is that they're applying conditions to this relationship with this current Israeli government at this current moment. And all the
00:24:34
Speaker
this current Israeli government needs to do is give them the tools and and the words to kind of prevaricate return to that initial status quo. Right, because it's a freeze on future trade negotiations, not on the current trade deals that they have or the the arms deals that they have.
00:24:56
Speaker
Another thing I would say is that I think it's like, this is a really important case study in how genocide and ethnic cleansing is carried out in the 21st century. I think one of the biggest differences that separates genocide in the 1940s and 50s and 60s to today is that you know genocide has become a much more public process.
00:25:18
Speaker
I think and you know i think genocidal states or genocidal entities have to contend with the fact that their actions are going to be telegraphed to the world for the world to see.
00:25:30
Speaker
And that's not to say that they're not going to engage in in genocidal acts. And that's not not to say that they're going to change their genocidal objectives. It just means that they have to do it in a different way, right? In a way that that covers it up in some ways and makes it a little bit more gradual process that normalizes it as a whole. And I think they have to manufacture consent for it so that the public doesn't step in and call for intervention. And I think that is one thing. And then the other thing that we're learning is is how much public response it's going to take to trigger intervention, right?
00:26:03
Speaker
At what what point in the genocide are we going to get to before not only the public says this is enough, but but until the point that they can influence the actions of actual policymakers?
00:26:15
Speaker
And I think that is is a huge disconnect. that is That is the main disconnect. Right, because we have seen massive mobilization for Palestine and Gaza all over the world and consistently for for months on end. And i think I think what this moment really tells us is that people power is not as powerful as we think it might be.
00:26:39
Speaker
um And that democracy does not exist in countries where we fought um where countries in which they you know are so proud of their democracies. you know If there is an overwhelming majority of people that have been against this genocide, why has it continued for so long? And so I do think that this moment is a very reflective moment. I think it tells us a lot about the the world in which we live in. And I think there is a realization um that the current world order is coming to an end.
00:27:14
Speaker
And I think, you know, in that sense, the the genocide has gutted the liberal rhetoric of a world order and it's really stripped away its foundational illusions.
00:27:26
Speaker
I think that hits the nail on the head because if you look back at the the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years since the end of World War II, bring it back all the way to then, you know, Gaza isn't the first
Challenges in Influencing Democracies
00:27:36
Speaker
genocide. Gaza is the first digitalized and telegraphed genocide to be seen across the world on social media. Sure.
00:27:43
Speaker
Like you say, over the past couple of years, I think what we're seeing is ah is a far wider problem. that Gaza, it's opening the door for, it's acting as a warning of sorts. But what we're seeing is that democracies across the globe, I think, are increasingly insulated from mass politics, period.
00:28:00
Speaker
And because of that, I think we need to ask ourselves, okay, how do we in general, affect policy change if our democracies, if our governments are so fundamentally isolated from the traditional process of mass politics, you know building people power, building enough support to get you know behind policy.
00:28:18
Speaker
And I think tying this back to ah an individual issue, for example, like i mean gun rights gun rights in the US, a vast, vast majority of Americans want tighter gun restrictions. But To this day, because of the pro-gun lobby and and because of the ideological issue that it's it's become, it's not actually being enacted into policy. And so what does that mean when such substantial majorities of people can be behind ah a certain policy change or a certain um topic or certain issue and not have that implemented in any way, shape or form? How do we even how do we move forward in terms of how we organize and and organize power? I think that completely changes what it means to to be
00:28:59
Speaker
you know, to be organizing and and resisting in today's and today's day and age. So Tarek, that leads me on to my final question. How can we mobilize in this moment where people in the mainstream media and Western political institutions are backtracking?
00:29:18
Speaker
I think what we're dealing with right now is, again, it's much bigger than Gaza. It's much bigger than Palestine. I think what we're what we're dealing with now is, again, it's it's fundamentally how do we engage in democratic mass politics or why why would we engage in democratic mass politics if mass politics has less and less influence on our governing structures and our governing institutions?
00:29:44
Speaker
My generation has always grown up to at least kind of believe if you if you get enough people in your camp, if you if you if you can you know cultivate the support of enough people, that'll inevitably lead to political change. right And I think that that idea was kind of started getting shattered as early as you know the Arab Spring, the um the Occupy Wall Street movement.
00:30:08
Speaker
and basically every attempted systemic revolution slash popular movement since, right? But then what comes next?
00:30:19
Speaker
if If power is not affected by mass politics, then what is our role in politics? And i'm not I don't have an answer to that. If our role as everyday civilians is to cultivate growing opposition to Israel's genocide in Gaza, for example, and in the hopes that enough pressure someday will be placed, for example, on the U.S. government.
00:30:44
Speaker
But if the U.S. s government is becoming increasingly and insulated to public pressure, especially on this topic because it's so dependent on entrenched interests like the pro-Israel lobby or or the military-industrial complex,
00:30:59
Speaker
And if it is ultimately beholden to those over the demands of popular opinion, then where does that place us as as civilians?
Potential for a New World Order
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right, Zarek, that it does this moment does require us to reflect on on a different kind of politics and and you know to realise that this is all connected to to a question of global and and and capital interests as well.
00:31:26
Speaker
And if you know these massive demonstrations, these massive disruptions... for literally months on end from from protests in the streets, from, you know, campus encampments, from the shutdown of of weapons factories, all of these things, if they're not enough to even shift the needle a little bit, because, you know, we're not even talking about a massive shift. We're, you know, talking about even just a small shift. if the If that's not possible, what does that...
00:31:57
Speaker
What does that say about our political system? What does that say about the world order? And I think, you know, many ways, as I said before, i think this' this world order is crashing down. um And I think it is scary in a way that unknown is scary.
00:32:17
Speaker
always frightening but I think one thing that i hold on to with change is that there's always possibility and also we have to remember that the world order that we have been living in since World War two was not a world order that benefited the majority of people around the world it was you know It's supposed to be one that provides stability, self-determination, to to territorial integrity um for all these states worldwide. But the reality is far more complex than that. In many cases, the world order has been used to support the continued colonization and the exploitation of of countries in the global south.
00:33:01
Speaker
So this facade is... is falling. And I think that can be ah frightening thing for some. But I think there is possibility, or we are entering into an era of possibility ah to create something entirely different.
00:33:19
Speaker
And this isn't to romanticize or to overstate the the possibility for that. um But I think, you know, we have around the world seen massive radicalization and politicization of people because of the genocide in Gaza.
00:33:39
Speaker
And I think for me, I'm more interested in those people than the sort of the people in the mainstream media ah for whom this phrase, the tide is turning, is being tied to. I don't care that Piers Morgan uttered the word genocide.
00:33:58
Speaker
I don't care that The Guardian published an editorial recognizing the the horrific situation in Gaza. I care about the millions of people who have hit the streets consistently in solidarity with Palestine.
00:34:16
Speaker
And I think it's there where we'll see real possibility for change. But I think it requires massive attention massive reflection on the current political system, um a massive reflection on on the current world order.
00:34:38
Speaker
I think where this conversation is headed kind of reminds me a lot of all other conversations that we've had at Ashabaka in terms of future visioning, right? And in terms of in terms of if and how we can envision a political future.
00:34:52
Speaker
And, you know, there's there's all these theories. i mean, there's there's, you know, hyper-normalization, capitalist realism, like all these, you know, I'm not the first one to say this basically, is that I think at this at this stage of capitalism, it's it's been very difficult to envision a world that is not a capitalist world, right? For example.
00:35:13
Speaker
And I think in in many ways, there is it it is also very difficult to envision a world in which Israel does not exist as an apartheid genocidal entity, right? And I think that The one possible first step in this process of thinking of new ways to engage in mass politics, boast both when it comes to Palestine and even wider than that, is really taking on a conscious effort to attempt to step outside of the boundaries that we have created for ourselves or fallen into in terms of our ability to envision or picture a new world, a different a world that is not confined by the realities of of capitalism or the by by the realities of of perpetual ah occupation and apartheid.
00:36:00
Speaker
And I think it's extremely sometimes it's ah extremely difficult to envision a world that is that is outside of those confines. And that makes it extremely difficult to envision a world in which policy is not necessarily changed by mass politics. And I think that if we're if we're trying to answer that question in the long run, I think it first takes us trying to you know think about and and again, envision a future that is separate or outside of the confines that of of capitalism, of occupation, of apartheid.
00:36:33
Speaker
And i'm i'm ah I know that that can sound really lofty and I'm just throwing around kind of terms and stuff, but I think it's it's really simple. It's just a status quo that has been so thoroughly entrenched over so many years can become extremely difficult to think outside of. right And I think that that is a first step that we need to do is we just need to try to figure out how to think of how to think outside of the status quo that we've become just so used to and has become so deeply ingrained into our mindsets.
00:37:07
Speaker
And I think that is just a first step to then thinking about, okay, if the if the tactics and strategies we've been using for for decades just don't apply anymore, or aren't effective as they might have been in the past, what what might work in the in this new world, right?
00:37:25
Speaker
And what could work for a future that we want to achieve? And I think that it's just like that first step of of trying to, you know i don't know, call it thinking outside of the box or and outside of the status quo or or the norms that we've gotten so used to. But I think even doing that is an act and in itself, is is extremely difficult. It's it's a process.
00:37:44
Speaker
But I think it is something we need to do because how can How can we think about tactics and strategy when, to be honest, like sometimes we can't even envision the alternative, the end goal, the the end objective?
Reimagining Policy Making for Palestine
00:37:57
Speaker
That is a first step. And um I don't know what it looks like, but I think at least we can recognize that that's something that's something that we can do. Dare, I think we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine.
00:38:15
Speaker
Thank you for having me on, as always.
00:38:20
Speaker
Rethinking Palestine is brought to you by Ashabaka, the Palestinian policy network. Ashabaka is the only global independent Palestinian think tank whose mission is to produce critical policy analysis and collectively imagine a new policymaking paradigm for Palestine and Palestinians worldwide.
00:38:37
Speaker
For more information or to donate to support our work, visit al-shabaka.org. And importantly, don't forget to subscribe to Rethinking Palestine wherever you listen to podcasts.