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Reflections on the Current Moment in Palestine with Makdisi Street
211 Plays3 months ago
In this episode, our host Yara Hawari joins hosts of the Makdisi Street podcast Saree, Ussama and Karim Makdisi to discuss the ongoing genocide in Gaza, intra Palestinian-Israeli politics and more.
This episode is co-published with the Makdisi Street podcast.
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Transcript
Central Role of Palestinian-led Organizing
00:00:00
Speaker
All the advocacy efforts, that hasn't happened randomly. This has happened as a result of Palestinian-led organizing in Palestine and in the diaspora. So I think it's really important to take stock of that and to remember that, that we're seeing massive solidarity, but we're seeing it in such an organized way because Palestinians refuse to be beaten, we refuse to be erased from our land, but also from the world's consciousness. And I think that's really a testament to that.
Genocide in Gaza and Intra-Politics
00:00:36
Speaker
The following podcast was recorded in collaboration with the Magdasi Street Podcast, co-hosted by Sari Usama and Karim Magdasi. In it, we discuss the ongoing genocide in Gaza, intra-Palestinian Israeli politics, and more.
00:00:55
Speaker
There are major demonstrations taking place today in Israel, you know, and labor union strikes. And this follows, of course, the kind of the deaths of six or the uncover of six hostages that were taken, captives that were taken and discovered.
00:01:11
Speaker
And I'm wondering, you know, how do you see this? How is it being covered? Is there something that is something new in Israeli politics, all these kind of major demonstrations, or is this just the kind of continuation of something that we've been seeing over the past several months, where it's not so much about what's going on in Gaza, about the genocide, about anything else, but purely a very kind of intra Israeli kind of politics and anti-Netanyahu, pro-Netanyahu type thing.
00:01:39
Speaker
So how do you see what's going on today? I think before I go into the demonstrations and the sort of intra-Israeli politics, I think it's really important that we take stock of what's happened over the last 12 months of ongoing genocide in Gaza and the figures of the death toll and
00:02:00
Speaker
Those figures are only the bodies that have been confirmed and identified. We're looking at 42,000 people. There are many more under the rubble, unlikely to be found until the bombing stops, and I think many actually won't be found at all. And those, only those who have been killed directly in bombings or shootings, many others have actually died from
00:02:20
Speaker
the other causes, the other symptoms related to the genocide. I'm sure you all remember that Lancer article that came out, the Lancer being, of course, one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. It estimated that the figure is more like at least 180,000 killed, and that includes people who've died from starvation, lack of medical treatment, contaminated water, etc.
00:02:45
Speaker
and now we have a polio outbreak confirmed in Gaza, so the numbers will only rise. Beyond the human cost of this genocide, the infrastructure in Gaza has been completely obliterated. Something like 90% of homes have been destroyed or deemed
00:03:01
Speaker
uninhabitable. Most of the roads have been destroyed, hospitals, schools, universities. It's actually the first time since the Nakaba that schools and universities will not open this month in Gaza. And I think all of this really speaks to the longevity of this genocide, even if there's a ceasefire.
00:03:21
Speaker
it's going to take years to clear away the rubble, to rebuild. I think modest estimates are at least a decade just for the rubble, just to get rid of the rubble. So we're looking at an entire generation of young people who will have their education dreams stalled and possibly destroyed, people who've had their businesses and homes destroyed, that they built their life savings. So this is something, as you all know, that's going to have really long-lasting effects into the future.
00:03:49
Speaker
And I think that's a crucial part of the story and something that's sometimes lost in the call for a ceasefire. Certainly a ceasefire is needed to stop the immediate death and destruction, but the death and destruction will continue long after.
Tel Aviv Protests and Societal Shift
00:04:05
Speaker
the ceasefire is achieved. And the reason I'm talking about that, I think it provides the sort of background to what's happening and what has been happening the last few days inside in Tel Aviv and within the Israeli regime. We've seen massive protests.
00:04:24
Speaker
perhaps the largest since the genocide started, and this was of course following the discovery of the bodies of six Israeli hostages in a tunnel in Gaza. And there are Israeli analysts that are suggesting that this indicates that we're either going to have a ceasefire by the end of the week or the Israeli government will fall by the end of the week.
00:04:47
Speaker
And to be honest, I'm not sure about either of those. And I think we have to be really clear about something. The hundreds of thousands of people marching in Tel Aviv right now, they're demanding a ceasefire deal and the resignation of Netanyahu, their prime minister, not in protest of the genocide, not in protest of the destruction that I just outlined. They're doing so in protest of how the genocide has been carried out.
00:05:12
Speaker
So in other words, they haven't achieved the military victory that they set out to achieve, which is eliminating Hamas. And the hostages, many of the hostages have not been returned home. The tens of thousands of murdered Palestinians don't even register on their radar.
00:05:28
Speaker
And I think, certainly for me, that's not surprising. I don't have high expectations from the Israeli public. We saw there were quite a few polls over the last 11 months, but one in particular stood out to me and that was, I think it was at the end of last year it was published.
00:05:44
Speaker
It asked Jewish Israelis about the war, about the genocide. And the vast majority said that the Israeli army was not doing enough in Gaza. So what we see really is that there is bipartisan support for the genocide. But I think, you know, what we're seeing, what Israelis sort of asking or talking about is how that genocide is conducted and who leads them. So that's really sort of what's the central tenon of these demonstrations.
00:06:12
Speaker
Thank you for that. One of the things that's striking about the genocide now, as you're saying, is that insofar as there's dissent inside the Israeli state or the Israeli polity, it's very clear that there's no dissent about the genocide itself. As you're saying, we know there's almost, if not unanimity, there's certainly solidarity among Israelis about
00:06:34
Speaker
either the need for the genocide or total indifference as to what's happening in Gaza itself. The concern is more about the Israeli prisoners being held in Gaza and sort of Israeli internal political differences. So one thing that's striking about this genocide compared to other episodes going back, well, if not to 1948, then at least in our collective memory, maybe not yours, but my brother's and ours, 1982, for example,
00:07:00
Speaker
during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, there were actually protests inside, you know, in Tel Aviv, for example, against the war, not against the conduct of the war, per se, but really against the war altogether, right? In other previous Israeli bombardments of Gaza, for example, I remember it was either 2008, nine, or maybe 2014. There was that letter published by Israeli pilots who said, we're not going to be doing this anymore, and so on, right? So there has in the past been a certain, not much, but a certain degree of Israeli dissent about
00:07:30
Speaker
violence against Palestinians. This time, that's all gone. It seems that the Israeli polity has shifted to a far more genocidal mindset than even 2008, 9, 2014, 1982, 2006, name the episode you want. So something seems to have shifted in their mindset
00:07:51
Speaker
that has made the Israelis much more murderous as a kind of state project. So I want to just pause on that question. In other words, as you're saying, too, when there's an argument among Israelis themselves between labor and the good or between the so-called opposition, it's not like the opposition isn't any better from a Palestinian perspective than the ruling party. They're all basically in agreement about what to do with Palestinians, right?
00:08:18
Speaker
Let's just think through a
Western Complicity in Gaza
00:08:19
Speaker
little bit more. What does it mean that there's such unanimity among them with respect to Palestine and Palestinians, which is different from previous such moments, although there's no really comparable moment, but even in whatever terms we could compare this particular moment to 2014 or 2008, 2009, and so forth. What do you make of that, of this increasing murderousness of the Israeli collective, if you are the body politic?
00:08:47
Speaker
Well, I know I wasn't alive in 1982, but I'm not sure that I fully ascribed to that assessment of the Israeli psyche that they've become more of a murderous society. You know, this was a regime that was founded on the murder and the looting of an entire society. I think it comes in ebbs and flows. I don't think it's a sort of a straight line going up. You know, Israelis becoming more and more violent in terms of their attitudes towards
00:09:14
Speaker
Palestinians. And I think, you know, when you talk about the dissent with violence or how Israelis, you know, sometimes in the past have dissented, I think it's never about the question is never about whether violence should be used. It's the extent of the violence used. I think it's fair to say that, you know, across the Israeli political spectrum, there is agreement that violence should be used against Palestinians. It's about where that violence is used, which communities will suffer, which tactics and
00:09:43
Speaker
and which tools of oppression. I think we see this even with the more so-called liberal Israelis. We've seen certain points in history where certain groups of liberal Israelis have had a turning point. We saw this during the second intifada, where many of the Israeli peace camp, the so-called peace camp,
00:10:04
Speaker
suddenly turned away from it because they thought that Palestinians, for resorting to armed resistance, were ungrateful and undeserving of human rights. And they became actually even
Inherent Violence in Settler Colonial Society
00:10:17
Speaker
more ardent in there. They became more sure about the oppression of Palestinians. And we're seeing that again. We're seeing so-called liberal Israelis once again saying, how do Gazans resist their oppression?
00:10:31
Speaker
this is what they deserve. So I think I don't fully agree with that assessment. I think a society, a settler colonial society that's founded on the ashes of another society, in this case Palestine, I think will always inevitably be violent.
00:10:49
Speaker
Yara, on that, if I could just jump in here, on that point, of course, we agree that this is a settler colonial society, and there is a sort of a logic of elimination in a settler colonial society. So the question in the study, and Yara is really, and Karim is really one more of resistance, as Yara is saying, it's an index and a relationship to resistance. Every time native populations or indigenous populations resist their oppression, they're met with extraordinary violence.
00:11:17
Speaker
And so 2006, for example, you know, it was a prelude to what happened in Gaza. The Dahi doctrine is a prelude to what happened in Gaza. Gaza then shows us what the future is in terms of how much violence and killing and mass murder and genocide is going to be acceptable to the society. And the question really is, what is, are you surprised, Yara, by the way Western societies
00:11:44
Speaker
liberal societies and governments in particular have not only tolerated but have actually condoned and accepted and enabled this genocide, which is just so shocking to so many people around the world. Or do you see this? I mean, so Israeli society, you're saying, is totally on board in terms of the violence directed at the natives, which is true. But what about Western societies more generally? Do you see there's a shift or not a shift or is it more shocking or more appalling?
00:12:13
Speaker
than previous episodes, and just to link this to another level. Are you surprised by the British, by the US, by the French, et cetera? By the British and the US, not so much. I think, yeah, look, I think the notable assets of this genocide, something perhaps unprecedented, is that it has been live streamed, that it has been covered so extensively by the very people that this genocide is being perpetrated against.
00:12:40
Speaker
And so I think for many people,
Palestinian Resilience and Global Advocacy
00:12:42
Speaker
the images that just hundreds of thousands of even millions of images and hours of footage and the live streaming, you know, all testament to the horrors that are occurring in Gaza. I think for many people, the shock is that, you know, with all of this, how can we not have more opposition? By opposition, I mean, you know, obviously there have been
00:13:04
Speaker
massive grassroots mobilisation. I'm talking right now about state opposition, third party opposition. How can we not have people actually say, hold their hands up and say, okay, actually, we don't condone this and it looks really bad. At least for them, they could say, even if they don't value Palestinian lives, which we know they don't value Palestinian lives,
00:13:27
Speaker
They could say, actually, this looks really bad on us to have an ally doing this so brazenly. I think for many of these politicians, and I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I think it's also uncharted territories for them. They have an ally that they have supported for decades since the very existence of the state of Israel.
00:13:49
Speaker
They have really premised their foreign policies, certainly in the Middle East, on this state. For them to come out and condone what Israel is doing or to challenge the policies, it has serious repercussions. It's not just coming out and saying, Israel, you're doing a bad thing. It actually has much
00:14:08
Speaker
much more serious repercussions, foreign policy for decades to come. And I think that really hammers home the point that whatever happens in Palestine, in Gaza, doesn't happen in a vacuum. This is connected to so much more. It's connected to the wider foreign policies in the Middle East. It's connected to the arms trade. It's connected so much more. So there's a lot riding on this. So it's not easy for them to come out and say it because it undermines their own democracies as well. And in their countries, it undermines their own politics.
00:14:38
Speaker
Can you specify what repercussions you're talking about? And when you say repercussions, what do you mean?
00:14:43
Speaker
I think one of the serious repercussions of the genocide is going to have in the future is on the international legal regime. What does it mean to have an international legal regime when people are not held accountable, right? So there are plenty of mechanisms within international law that actually could bring about a ceasefire, could have brought about a ceasefire in the first week of the genocide. But third states are actively choosing
00:15:09
Speaker
not to invoke those mechanisms, they're actually choosing to ignore their third state responsibilities. So that's going to have a serious repercussion on the international legal regime moving forward. What does it mean if we're only applying this regime, which so many Western countries have hold so dear to their hearts? What does it mean when they're applying it to one group of people and not to another? I think also in terms of the region, I think this is going to have repercussions.
00:15:39
Speaker
maybe not in the short term, but certainly in the medium to long term. The populations of the Middle East have seen how these countries have behaved towards the Palestinian people who are facing a genocide. I don't think they're going to stay quiet for a long time. I think those are just some of the repercussions that I'm thinking about.
00:16:00
Speaker
I have a couple of questions. First, just a clarification. Since you're based in Palestine, I assume that you're meeting with a lot of these NGOs, a lot of potentially delegations that come or not. Do you get an impression from at least some of the Westerners that they are aware of what's going on, the ones that are coming to the area?
00:16:19
Speaker
as opposed to the capital and the official statements behind the scenes and lunches and dinners. Do they acknowledge or are they taking positions like the Germans seem to do or others that they are fully serious about their official positions? And it's not just, well, we need to do it, we have domestic concerns, we have to, etc.
00:16:38
Speaker
but we actually know what's going on. I'm curious about that because we often get this, you know, when people come to Lebanon and have some discussions with them, sometimes there's a difference. Like they understand, they come and say, you know, we know what's going on, but, you know, we can't do anything about it.
00:16:52
Speaker
During the genocide now, is this something that's taking place? And also, I think it's connected as well. We hear from the United States and from
International NGOs' Silence
00:17:02
Speaker
European capitals that there seems to be a distinction between the West Bank, which I want to talk about in a little bit.
00:17:09
Speaker
And it's like, okay, we're turning a blind eye to genocide, go ahead, do what you want. But when something happens, it's like, there's at least this kind of, you know, formal note or formal protest or, you know, they say something, the Americans even kind of do this symbolic sanction on this individual settler types. Do you see that? That there is a distinction in this sense and why?
00:17:33
Speaker
Perhaps I'll address your question in reverse. I think absolutely there is a distinction between how people, the international community, including NGOs, diplomats, politicians, how they respond as opposed to how they respond to the West Bank. I mean, we know that there is deep dehumanisation of the Palestinian people and it's not like the responses to the West Bank are
00:17:55
Speaker
particularly phenomenal. But when it comes to Gaza, it seems like it's a different playbook entirely. The dehumanisation is so deep that we don't even see an ounce of humanity afforded to them by this community. And I'm speaking in general terms, but it's from my experience. And then to your second point, I actually have not been meeting in the last 11 months with that many people.
00:18:18
Speaker
I think a lot of people, internationals, have not been coming to Palestine. It's also a choice of mine not to. But just from past experience, it's incredibly infuriating when internationals, and again, I'm talking about people who work for NGOs, various diplomats, they will admit in private
00:18:38
Speaker
that the occupation is horrific. They will talk about Israel with disdain. They will say how awful it is to have to deal with them and how terrible the situation is for Palestinians. But in public, they won't say these things because they're concerned either for their organizations, their funding, et cetera, or their own personal positions.
00:18:57
Speaker
And that's been the case for decades. And people who've been working in the field much longer than me will tell you the same, that they'll have a great meeting with someone in private and they'll come out that meeting feeling elated. And then it's a different story when they see the public statements or public actions from these internationals. So there is certainly that disconnect between what is said in private and what's said in public.
00:19:26
Speaker
So Yara, on this point then, therefore, a couple of questions come out from what you've just said about the NGOs and the liberal NGOs and also Israeli society more broadly that you described. What is the point, given this kind of analysis, given what you've been saying, is there any point in appealing or depending on
00:19:47
Speaker
or engaging with this kind of NGOs or Israeli society more broadly. I mean, Israeli Jewish society specifically more broadly. So what is the efficacy or point of appealing to them if what you're saying holds true? Can you flesh that out for us a little bit more, please?
00:20:06
Speaker
I'll separate those two out. So I think with the international community, and it's such a broad time, but I think many of the listeners will know, broadly speaking, who we're referring to. But we will always have allies in that community. There will always be people coming to Palestine who are coming so, because they genuinely support the struggle and the right for Palestinians to have their freedom and sovereignty. And so I think it's always worth engaging with people who are well-intentioned, who have the right politics.
00:20:34
Speaker
I think it's not a question about whether we give up entirely in that arena. I think it's more a question of how much energy do we spend. And I think for so long, especially since the Oslo records and the NGOization of Palestinian civil society, we've put too many eggs in that basket. We have spent so many energies on these time and energy on these
00:20:55
Speaker
people on these organizations. And we haven't seen tangible outcomes from it. And I think we have neglected, for example, our allies and our brothers and sisters in the global South. I think there has been such a large focus on these these Western groups and entities. And that's not to say that we should abandon them because there are allies among, you know, in these spaces.
00:21:16
Speaker
But it's really about shifting our energies and doing a reassessment of where we spend our time and our advocacy efforts and our time in building alliances. As for Israeli society, I mean, the poll I stated earlier where the majority of Israeli society thinks that the Israeli army hasn't gone far enough in Gaza, I think really sums it up. I think it's really difficult to advocate or to
00:21:45
Speaker
appeal to such an audience. And I think there are people better suited to do it than Palestinians. I don't think it should be the responsibility of Palestinians to engage in that kind of work. I actually think it should be the responsibility of Jewish allies to engage with those people. And also importantly, there is a consensus among Palestinian civil society in the grassroots
00:22:11
Speaker
against normalisation with Israelis and Israeli entities that refuse to recognise Palestinian fundamental rights and very much support that consensus and so do many Palestinian organisations and individuals. If you're enjoying this podcast, please visit our website al-shabaka.org where you will find more Palestinian policy analysis and where you can join our mailing list and donate to support our work.
00:22:42
Speaker
on this point, I mean, I think we're largely in agreement with you that the sense that no matter what we say about Israeli society in the past, I think that there were cracks of dissent at different moments that are just gone now. There's no question about that. And in that sense, I think you're right that what we're talking about here at a kind of collective social level shows that there's very little to be gained in trying to negotiate with these people or to try to explain to them
00:23:11
Speaker
genocide is wrong. It seems kind of hopeless to me, right? It seems to me a society in which 90% of the people support the genocide in effect, which is what those polls pretty consistently show, a society that has also leveled calls, for example, for the destruction of Lebanon and things like that, that's a society that needs to feel not just international kind of
00:23:34
Speaker
attempts at dialogue, but also it should feel international isolation collectively, right? Which is, of course, that's the whole, the whole point of the BDS, boycotts, divestments and sanctions campaign is to isolate Israeli society in the way that South African society, settler, apartheid society was once isolated, to make them feel, if this is how you're going to behave, this will be the result, not trying to appeal to your conscience, because I don't know what vestiges of conscience there remains collectively in that society.
00:24:04
Speaker
But rather to say, okay, you do this, this is going to be the consequence. You will be cut off from international events, international sporting events, the UN, international organizations, and so on and so on. So it seems to me that that's pretty clear. There was always the need for a boycott campaign and a sanctions campaign, but what we're seeing now boosts the necessity of that much more clearly than ever before in that sense.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if you want to respond to that. No, just to say that I know I agree with that point. I mean, I want to go back a little bit to the question of that I sort of started a little bit with the question of the intra Israeli kind of politics. I think this question of overwhelming Jewish Israeli support for the genocide, I think for me, in any case, that
00:24:50
Speaker
If there was any shred of doubt about things, I think for me now this is very clear that you have to consider that the whole society there with individuals aside, of course there's always some individuals, but that this is a war by the entire society against the Palestinians. There's no longer in a sense this, for me, I mean, maybe I'm in a different position, I live in a different country in this case, with this question of trying to form allies in Palestine
00:25:18
Speaker
seems to me to be extraordinarily difficult even conceptually at this point. It's very difficult to even find allies, again, outside of certain individuals.
00:25:29
Speaker
And then you have on top of that when the US Secretary of State shows up a few days after October 7 and says I'm here as a Jewish person rather than as the American foreign minister or the Secretary of State. It kind of adds to this larger way in which there must be a sense among Palestinians, and this is where I want to kind of get your view, there must be a sense among Palestinians that how does resistance look like?
00:25:55
Speaker
So you've got the resistance, you have Hamas, you have military resistance, which has its role. Then you have other forms of resistances, through civil society, through all the policy networks, through all these other kinds of, let's say, what's called these non-violent kind of movements. Where are we now with this? Where is Palestinian society?
00:26:16
Speaker
in trying to imagine a post-genocide society, post-genocide politics. At this point, I'm not talking about Palestinian Authority or PLO. I would like to talk about it in a little bit. But just among the society itself, is there something going on? I know right now it's not the ideal moment to be thinking about it, but does that exist? Does that space still exist?
00:26:42
Speaker
Will this be renewed in a sense? Will the kind of politics be renewed and taken much more viscerally in a sense? Or is this a major setback to all those initiatives, all those networks that were built, all those kinds of allies that were being counted upon? What's the sense inside Palestine on this?
00:27:02
Speaker
I can't speak to or, you know, about Gaza as someone who is not in Gaza, has never been to Gaza. But I think, you know, elsewhere in Palestine, I mean, all of Palestine's civil society in the grassroots has always had this phenomenal ability to rebuild, to bounce back in the face of massive adversity. I know what we're seeing today is unprecedented in many ways.
00:27:27
Speaker
But if you look at what happened during the Nakabah in 1948, our entire society, all our institutions, all our communities, all our various different groups and political parties were obliterated from the land of Palestine or for the majority of the land of Palestine. And quite phenomenally, it was able to bounce back. And so I do believe that we will come back from this as a people. I think it's very difficult to say this amidst the genocide, which is ongoing.
00:27:55
Speaker
and from a position of immense privilege as someone who is not currently under Israeli bombardment. So I do believe in that. I do think Palestinian civil society and the grassroots and activists are continuing to mobilize. And I think sometimes it's a bit difficult to see amidst all the horrors, but they haven't gone away. And we're seeing all the advocacy efforts
00:28:21
Speaker
all the mobilization efforts around the world, that hasn't happened randomly. This has happened as a result of Palestinian-led organizing in Palestine and in the diaspora. So I think it's really important to take stock of that and to remember that, that we're seeing massive solidarity, but we're seeing it in such an organized way because Palestinians
00:28:42
Speaker
refused to be beaten, we refused to be erased from our land but also from the world's consciousness and I think that's really a testament to that and I don't say this to sort of romanticise the current moment we're in either because of course at the same time
00:28:58
Speaker
many Palestinian political organizing has taken a huge hit, not just since the beginning of the genocide, but also since the 2021 unity into father. There was a concerted effort to disrupt and to destroy the leadership of that moment. The disruption
00:29:20
Speaker
was successful in many ways, and the results of that disruption were seeing play out in the West Bank, where there has been an inability to mass mobilize against the genocide. I don't want to romanticize the situation, but I also don't want to be defeatist about it, because I do really believe in the ability of the Palestinian people to come back from such horrible catastrophes.
Escalating Violence in West Bank
00:29:50
Speaker
Yeah, even though all of our attention has been focused on Gaza because of the genocide there, as you know, there's been a lot of things going on in the West Bank as well. It's a slower pace than in Gaza, but nevertheless, it's been ticking along. I think at this point, Israelis have killed 900 or 1,000 people so far in the West Bank. So it's a smaller scale than Gaza, but nevertheless, it's there, it's been present, it's ticking up. But in the past, I don't know, two weeks or so,
00:30:19
Speaker
pretty marked acceleration in terms of the violence these way, these are inflicting in the West Bank. The increasing use, for example, of helicopter gunships or drones or fighter aircraft to bomb people in Janine and other parts of the North, especially the Northern part of the West Bank, the use of what they call evacuation orders in parts of the West Bank, which are, of course, similar to the ones they've used in Gaza, and the ramping up of
00:30:46
Speaker
the genocidal rhetoric of the Smotritches and Ben Kvyres and so forth, and all that's happening. From your sense of what a West Bank perspective might look like, what do you think the sense is? I mean, if the genocide now turns in a full weight to the West Bank, where would that leave, you know, how does that leave, where does that leave past Indian society in the West Bank? I mean, like, for example, among other things, you made the point about the genocide in Gaza doesn't just involve killing people, it also involves massive and lasting
00:31:14
Speaker
It may be even permanent damage to infrastructure. So when we see those videos of the Israeli army entering Genin or to Karim, places like that in the West Bank, those horrible caterpillar bulldozers of theirs have those incredible hooks at the back with which they use just to dig up, to churn up the asphalt in the streets.
00:31:34
Speaker
which serves zero military function. It's a gratuitous kind of damage to sewer networks and the roads. It's just purely gratuitous. But what do people think about this escalation of the West Bank that's happening recently and the possibility that this could be the next phase of the genocide in Gaza?
00:31:55
Speaker
Do you know what the Israeli army are calling this operation in the West Bank? They're calling it Operation Summer Camps. And the reason they're calling it Operation Summer Camps, of course, is because the focus is on the refugee camps in the northern West Bank, where there tends to be more armed resistance. I mean, look, this is the largest invasion of the West Bank since 2002. You know, I think it's a lot of the things we're seeing in Jenin are very
00:32:24
Speaker
reminiscent of what's been happening at least in the early days of the genocide in Gaza. The cities have been placed under blockade. The entrances and exits are being blocked. There are checkpoints everywhere. There's limited food and medical supplies. The Israelis are going into people's homes, kicking them out. In some cases, blowing up the houses. They've invaded medical facilities. They've been preventing ambulances from reaching the injured.
00:32:53
Speaker
We've even seen footage of Palestinians leaving their homes waving white flags. And we've heard from journalists on the ground as well that they're being shot out, they're being threatened. I don't think there's a sort of international journalist presence on the ground in these areas. And Jeanine, of course, is a place where Palestinian journalist Shalina Abu Akhla was killed in 2022.
00:33:15
Speaker
Janine and these places are no strangers to invasion, to military raids. Of course, the whole of the West Bank is under occupation, but in particular, in the northern parts of the West Bank, they've been really subjected to a lot of brutality over the last few decades. The pretext is always the same. It's the same everywhere that the Israelis are going after the armed resistance. It's a pretext that we saw, and we continue to see the Israeli regime use in Gaza.
00:33:44
Speaker
So, you know, it's definitely an escalation just on sheer scale. The amount of soldiers have been deployed, the use of airstrikes, as you mentioned, and it's been even more worrying to see how the Israelis are talking about this, how Israeli officials are talking about this. We heard the Israeli foreign ministers or our cats say that this would be a war for everything.
00:34:06
Speaker
and that it would include, as you mentioned, the so-called temporary evacuation of Palestinian residents from the West Bank. And we know that that language is code for ethnic cleansing. I mean, it's not particularly good code, but that's what they mean when they say it. And, you know, Palestinians are not, you know, they know that this is not separate to what's happening in Gaza, you know.
00:34:27
Speaker
Israelis use different tactics for different communities. But the end goal is always the same. In Gaza, the committing genocide in the West Bank, we've seen over decades this incremental use of forced displacement, of incarceration, of colonization. And the end goal is to squeeze as many Palestinians in even less and less land. So it's less Palestinians for more land. And I think the scary thing is that Israelis, the Israeli army, the Israeli regime now see this as
00:34:56
Speaker
an opportunity. They see that they've gotten away with killing tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza and obliterating Gaza, and they have yet to face any consequences from the international community. Yes, we had the ICJ
00:35:13
Speaker
come out and say that there are plausible acts of genocide that hasn't resulted in any kind of sanctions. And actually, on the contrary, they've been rewarded. They've been rewarded for their actions in Gaza with continuing diplomatic relations, with increased arms sales. This is really a prime opportunity for them to launch something a lot more serious in the West Bank because they don't get away with it. And I think that's something
00:35:40
Speaker
that a lot of Palestinians are fearing, but I think it's also something that we've always known. We've always known that they're not going to stop at Tel Aviv, they're not going to stop at Askaland, they're not going to stop at Yafan Haifa. The end goal has always been the whole lot of Palestine, and we've known that all along. I think we've been gaslit for so long by the international community with the promotion of the
00:36:01
Speaker
the facade of the two states and the respect for international law. And that's what it's been. It's been consistent gaslighting for over seven and a half decades.
00:36:12
Speaker
So Iyara, on that point, on gaslighting, you raised several really important points. One is, of course, the question about the West Bank. Well, there's two questions there. One is the West Bank specifically and the PA, the Palestinian Authority. And one of the most striking aspects of the genocide of the last year, basically, has been the total absence of any kind of statements or any kind of effective statements.
00:36:35
Speaker
or let alone actions by the PA, which of course acts like a collaborating authority to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. So how do you explain the endurance of the PA in the West Bank given the genocide and given what the Israelis are doing in the West Bank, which of course is
00:36:51
Speaker
ethnic cleansing as you're suggesting that's exactly what the plan is always been and that's what the plan will continue to be so that's one question what about the p.a. how do you read the ps response why do people still put up with the p.a. given how overt the collaboration is that they have no choice is that people are so fragmented that they don't have the ability to mobilize against the p.a.
00:37:10
Speaker
What explains the endurance of this absolutely wretched collaborationist authority in Ramallah?
Palestinian Authority's Role and Challenges
00:37:16
Speaker
Question number one and question number two takes us back, maybe it's a separate question, but takes us back to a point you raised earlier which is given the Western support for the official Western support for the genocide or the inaction of the international community as you say to prevent the genocide
00:37:32
Speaker
How does one isolate, since you're calling for that or you're suggesting that's the effective way, how does one isolate Israel without appealing to Western societies, since Israel depends on the Western societies and Western governments? So how do you isolate this or put leverage on them without appealing to Western societies? These are two separate questions. One is going back to what you said earlier, but the other one, the more immediate question is the PA and the West Bank, given the situation there.
00:38:00
Speaker
I mean, I think if there was a global nuclear war, the last people standing would be the PA. That's how it feels at this point. I think the PA has, since the beginning of the genocide, has been functioning, at least on an operational level, as it is supposed to.
00:38:16
Speaker
And by that, I mean, it continues to oppress and suppress Palestinian political opposition and resistance to occupation. And sure, there has been some rhetoric with regards to, you know, standing with our people in Gaza. There hasn't been any action. And there are things that they can do, even if limited, but worse than inaction. They've actually been suppressing Palestinian solidarity with Gaza. And I think not many people are aware of this.
00:38:43
Speaker
At the beginning of the genocide, there have been demonstrations in support of our brothers and sisters in Gaza, in Ramallah, in the embassy machine, in many other areas, in Haifa, in Nazareth. But these have often been, and just talking about the West Bank now, these have often been repressed by PA security forces. So just to give you an example, the night of the bombing of the Lakhli hospital, which I think was
00:39:06
Speaker
mid-October, there was a spontaneous demonstration in Ramallah. And I think this was the first time that the Israeli army bombed a hospital in Gaza. Now, of course, we're at a stage where they bombed every hospital in Gaza. But the PA security forces brutally shut down this protest, and they killed a protester. They ran him over with one of their armored jeeps, funded with banks, of course, to the international community. Another example is just a few days ago, during the invasion of the northern West Bank,
00:39:35
Speaker
During that horribly named Operation Summer Camps, the PA security forces went into the old city of Nablus and they took down the tar pooling site, the plastic covers that residents had put up in the old city to avoid the Israeli surveillance drones. So they continued to work hand in hand on the security coordination. And there's always this rhetoric about, you know, our bus or other PA ministers might threaten to end the security coordination.
00:40:00
Speaker
But it never actually happens. They never go through with it. And that's because the PA's existence is premised on that security coordination. And I don't know if you saw when Abbas and a delegation of PA officials were invited to
00:40:17
Speaker
to Turkey to address the parliament in Ankara. I don't know if you saw that, but in his speech, Bass made this grand statement that he'd be going to Gaza in the near future, even if it cost him his life. And this was met with standing applause from Erdogan.
00:40:34
Speaker
his cronies. From most Palestinians, it was met with ridicule. I mean, there was a whole series of memes and jokes online because how exactly is Abbas, who's going to be 90 years old next year, how is he going to go to Gaza? A besieged territory which is under massive bombardment and is facing an ongoing genocide.
00:40:50
Speaker
And it was actually revealed shortly after that that Neshech, the man in charge of the security coordination between the PA and the Israeli regime, had actually submitted a written request to the Israelis to allow for a person on various offers to go to Gaza. And apparently they also appealed to the Americans to facilitate this.
00:41:08
Speaker
And I don't think there's been a response, but we know realistically this won't, and it can't happen, you know. Goss is not going to get a warm welcome in Goss, and I think probably the Americans in the Israelis will be concerned about her safety there. And I think, you know, but I think it also tells you everything you need to know about who's calling the shots. Like, Abbas not only has to apply for permission from the Israelis to leave the West Bank, but he also has to coordinate with them when he travels in between cities, which doesn't happen much anyway these days.
00:41:36
Speaker
But I think it highlights some crucial things that the PA has become redundant. It doesn't have any power and it's not playing any kind of role in what's happening in Gaza in terms of working towards stopping the genocide.
00:41:53
Speaker
And there have been, you know, there have been sort of lip service efforts, I guess. You know, there have been efforts at national unity. The national unity agreement signed between Feta, the ruling party of the PA, and Hamas counterparts in Beijing. It was broken by the Chinese. But this national unity agreement was only about very broad principles. And it was a win for Feta. They could say, oh, look, you know, we did something.
00:42:21
Speaker
My question then is, given your knowledge of the situation in the West Bank, why do people put up? I mean, maybe it's a naive question, but why do they put up with the situation? They put up with the situation for decades. How can it be that Abbas, given how overt the collaboration is, how disgraceful what's going on in terms of
00:42:42
Speaker
the overt sort of systematic, the genocide taking place in Gaza in full view, as you said, live streamed. Every Palestinian in the West Bank, outside the West Bank, in the world can see what's going on. And there's no filters to this. People can see this. How can it be that Abbas and company are still there to even call the shots or to pretend to call the shots? Why isn't there an uprising against
00:43:08
Speaker
I mean, maybe this is again a naive question. Why isn't there more resistance to this absolutely naked collaborationist authority?
00:43:18
Speaker
I think there are several facets to this. The PA has worked really hard for a couple of decades now at suppressing Palestinian political opposition on all different levels. They have worked hand in hand with the Israeli regime to in hundreds, if not thousands, of potential political leaders and actual political leaders across the Palestinian political spectrum.
00:43:43
Speaker
a fact that it's nearly impossible to register a new Palestinian political party with the Interior Ministry. Actually, it's something that you can't do. It's a very stifled space that Palestinians are having to operate in politically. But I think, importantly, the world's powers, the Israelis, the Americans, the EU to a large extent, they don't have an interest in seeing the Palestinian Authority being toppled. In fact,
00:44:11
Speaker
Their interest is to keep the Palestinian Authority in place because the PA is what stabilizes the situation in the West Bank. It prevents an uprising from occurring. It prevents any kind of opposition to the status quo. So really, the PA has these massive backers. And of course, I want to clarify as well, I'm talking about the PA as a structure.
00:44:35
Speaker
The PA is also the largest employer in the West Bank. It employs a third or something like a third of people in the West Bank as civil servants and whatnot. When I'm talking about the PA in very broad terms, I'm talking about the structure and I'm talking about the people at the top. I'm not talking about the average employee. It's a very complex situation where you have essentially what is the native influence of a colonial entity that's being propped up by
00:45:05
Speaker
by the world's powers. And you have a people that in many ways are held hostage to this entity because they rely on it for their livelihood. So it's a very complex situation, but it's something that Palestinians are deeply aware of. I mean, the average Palestinian will tell you, you know, if we want to see an end to occupation, we have to deal with the PA first, you know, we have to clean up our own house first. And that's, you know, it's something that Palestinians are deeply, deeply cognizant of.
00:45:36
Speaker
Just following on this as we begin to wrap up, we see at least I saw a couple of polls that showed that Hamas has increased in popularity even in the West Bank. And so this brings the question of what liberation means now in Palestine and for Palestinians. So on the one hand we have what is this armed resistance and what's been going on.
00:45:57
Speaker
as an option now, as it is in Lebanon, as it has been in various countries in the region now. And on the other hand, you have this, so we talked about the passing authority. I'm not sure there's much more to discuss about that because I think we all agree and pretty much everybody agrees that it's simply this kind of collaborationist institution. But there's been a lot of discussion and in this podcast series, we've talked to
00:46:20
Speaker
people like Hannah Nash-Sheroui and Diane Buto and others, about possibilities of, let's say, PLO reform. PLO being the only organization that still has, in theory anyway, all the different constituents of all Palestinians inside, outside refugee camps, in the diaspora, everywhere, basically. Is that option?
00:46:40
Speaker
finished realistically? Are there still people thinking, okay, the way out of this for intra-Palestinian politics is to reform the PLO, maybe bring Hamas into it, go from there, this kind of thing? Or does liberation now look like the fighting against the Palestinian Authority and moving towards a different form of resistance, either the form that Hamas is pushed for or some other kind of hybrid form, something where it's no longer a question to negotiate and do institutional things,
00:47:09
Speaker
but some other form.
Generational Leadership Gap
00:47:10
Speaker
What does it look like? That's a really good question and I'm not sure that I will be able to fully answer it. I'm from a generation of Palestinian that's often referred to as the Oslo generation. We grew up under the consequences of Oslo. I was in Palestine when the PLO returned
00:47:31
Speaker
to Palestine and suffered the consequences as a result of the signing of those accords. And so I think for people of my generation and perhaps those younger are less wedded to the PLO as an entity or less committed to the PLO as an entity, as an entity to represent Palestinian people as an entity that all lead us to liberation.
00:47:56
Speaker
At the same time, I don't dismiss the importance that the PLO still has for a lot of people of other generations. It's a difficult one. For me, I'm not a reformist. I generally don't believe in reform, but I also recognize the significance of the PLO as an entity for so many people. But I'm not
00:48:21
Speaker
I'm not holding on to it. For me, on a personal level, it's not something that I necessarily hold on to. I think it's very unlikely that we will see the kind of PLO reform that is needed for full liberation, to be very honest with you.
00:48:36
Speaker
And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. We can have new entities, we can have new leadership structures and models. And I think that's okay. I don't think we're in that position right now, though, to think about that. I think it's a big question. I don't know if Palestinians are in the place to think about that. I know lots of Palestinians are talking about leadership. There are lots of behind the scenes discussions about sort of not only day after in
00:49:05
Speaker
in Gaza, but also what the Palestinian leadership looks like moving forward. But unfortunately, from my experience and what I've heard of these conversations, there's nothing new in them. It's a recycling of old leadership models and it's recycling of the old leaders. So it's a big question, maybe one that I'll need to think on some more before I sort of provide a more extensive answer.
00:49:29
Speaker
Yeah, of course, that's fair. And you're right that the question of the PLO is partly a generational question. So people in our generation, there's a certain kind of nostalgia to it. And of course, we want to be wary of nostalgia and not fall into the trap of nostalgia. But the PLO does have something that the PA doesn't have, which is, as Kenny alluded to this earlier, which is it's an international presence. It has, for example, basically it has the seat in the UN, it has
00:49:56
Speaker
embassies around the world that has more recognition around the world than the Israeli state does. So there's a lot there that at least in theory could be mobilized for, for example, not necessarily to do what it used to do. In fact, not to do what it used to do, but rather, for example, in part of what I see as an important part of the next phase towards liberation is the massive ramping up of the BDS program.
00:50:23
Speaker
an international network such as that, that the PLO actually still possesses, and international leverage in general, would actually be very useful. It would be a useful component of the struggle, although I'm aware that we shouldn't fall into nostalgia for, you know, misplaced nostalgia for how things used to be, etc. So I'm not saying we should go back. I'm saying if anything, maybe we should look forward to anticipate the ways in which the PLO could at least theoretically be reformed in order to
00:50:53
Speaker
to leverage, to use that term, its international presence, its international networks, its location in various international organizations, including the UN. Yes, of course, as you said earlier, those haven't yielded very much yet. But nevertheless, that's one area where surely we need to focus the struggle as well, right?
00:51:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I think perhaps I wasn't thinking so much about the international dimension, which I should have been. It's undeniable that the PLO is the one that sort of maintains our presence in all these institutions. But there is another international dimension and that sort of
00:51:33
Speaker
the grassroots diaspora. All of the massive mobilisations we've seen around the world haven't been as a result of the PLO. It's been as a result of various different Palestine groups and communities who've been working for decades. I'm not saying this to pit one against the other. I do think the generational
00:51:54
Speaker
the generational issue is a big one. And I think also in terms of just thinking about Palestinians in Palestine, the PLO is largely irrelevant to them. I mean, you ask the average person on the street under the age of 30, they probably won't know what to tell you when they ask you, what is the PLO? If you ask them,
00:52:18
Speaker
you know, what do you think of the malada men? They might not know how to respond to that. So I think that's really critical, you know, when we're talking about these, when we're talking about the issue of the PLO, I think we do need to factor that in. And, you know, as I said before, I don't have a clear answer on this. I think it's, you know, it's such an unprecedented moment in our in our story and our struggle that it's sometimes it's difficult to think clearly about these issues. But, you know, I do recognize what you said and think it's something that we're going to have to grapple with.
00:52:49
Speaker
Just as a quick follow up on that, imagine just hypothetically or theoretically, I know it's weird not in a place right now to imagine much beyond the immediate present, but we do need to, at some point we need to do that, right? But imagine the presence of the PLO throwing itself, like the PLO has assiduously avoided, and feta and so forth, have assiduously avoided engaging in the question of BDS. They don't, they just don't, if anything, they don't approve of it or they don't talk about it. Imagine the PLO throwing its weight behind
00:53:18
Speaker
a global BDS program. Imagine the various PLO ambassadors actually going to the Olympic Committee or FIFA or whatever, or using more leverage that they actually have, at least in theory they have, towards this global. In other words, there are ways to imagine, at least theoretically,
00:53:38
Speaker
a common cause being made between grassroots civil organizing, all the civil society organizations that issued the BDS call in 2005 or whenever it was, working with the PLO. Theoretically, yes, I mean, you're right. Of course, there's these generational things that we have to ask about. And of course, the PLO lost its way as of also the PLO lost its way clearly. So there's a lot to be resolved there.
00:54:02
Speaker
But also just to add to that, you know, like there is a difference again between PLO policy sort of official statements and to individuals in the PLO, you know, entities within the PLO. I think there's such a broad spectrum of opinions and ultimately the one that wins out
00:54:18
Speaker
in terms of what's put down on paper, what's said in official statements, is the one that's supported by Ambas and his faction. That just speaks to how much the PLO has been subsumed by the PA and by Ambas and by Fadzegh. We all know that the PLO has a very broad spectrum of opinions. I wouldn't say that the
00:54:41
Speaker
that PLO is necessarily against BDS, but what I would say is that in terms of the official line, they are beholden to the PA. If the PLO comes out and supports the BDS movement in its official statements, that will have repercussions on the PA, the funding, the donors. They might decide to cut money to certain ministries in the PA. The problem is that it has been subsumed and it's
00:55:09
Speaker
beyond time for that sort of entanglement between the PA and the PLO to be untangled. The question is if that untanglement can happen. And whilst the PA exists, I don't think it can. And whilst the PA exists, I don't think we're going to see a return to a revolutionary PLO, one that represents truly its people in its entirety.
00:55:35
Speaker
But that's precisely the point, Yara. I think that there is no other organization that can represent or has represented the entirety other than the PLO. And you're right, it has been subsumed by the PA in the phase, as you call it, the Oslo phase and what we're living now.
00:55:50
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that there isn't a possible. I mean, there has to be thinking about other futures. And also, just as a note of caution, although I agree with almost everything you've said, is the idea of grassroots organization alone. Kadeem probably will correct me on this. But grassroots organization alone is not necessarily is not in the end, the political leadership is wanting grassroots because you can have grassroots mobilization that can just
00:56:14
Speaker
rise up in an extraordinary mobilization, genuine passion, genuine conviction and courage, but then dissipate once the moment is over. That's why there's ultimately something called leadership. Unfortunately, now the leadership is completely co-opted and fragmented. The question is, can we imagine or is there an imagination for something different in the future that can actually represent the reality of the Palestinian people in all its diversity, in all its fragmentations and unify this?
00:56:41
Speaker
other than the PA like something maybe not the PLO but something maybe whatever it is there has to be something that can actually speak to the Palestinian reality in its existence not just in the West Bank which is what the PA does but across the world. I agree with you like I think there can be no you know there has to be political leadership I think one of the problems
00:57:02
Speaker
for the Palestinian people is that there isn't that space in Palestine for that leadership. And so it has, in many ways, retreated to civil society spaces, to grassroots spaces. So we do need that political leadership.
00:57:17
Speaker
100% agree with you on that. I think just on that point about grassroots movements rising up and then dissipating, yeah, I think that's the very nature of grassroots groups. But I would say, and just speaking from my experience in Palestine, is that a lot of these
00:57:34
Speaker
movements and moments and spaces amongst the grassroots. They're not new people, they're the same leaders, they're the same people organizing, trying to carve out and forge new spaces in an incredibly repressive, politically repressive environment. So the question I think is, as you pointed out, how do we imagine a new political landscape for Palestinians, one that includes a leadership? And I think
00:58:00
Speaker
People are beginning to do that. They have done that in the past. I do think now is the time to do it. I recognise that for a lot of people, just surviving the ever deteriorating present is taking priority. But that means for Palestinians who are in positions where they can do that, that's the work that we have to do.
00:58:20
Speaker
I think to wrap up, just to sum, I want to correct, it's not necessarily leadership, it's institutions. And, you know, it's obviously these are connected, but it's the institutions themselves that are normally what would, you know, create a sustainability, so to speak. I mean, you take certain moments of crisis, etc., but then you build institutions from it.
00:58:39
Speaker
And that's where this is why, you know, one of the most insidious parts of Oslo was the creation of the PA because you are creating an institution that is beholden to the Oslo process. And therefore, by definition, to the occupation and to the Americans and to the Israelis and to all of that. And once you create an institution, it's extremely difficult to move it aside because you have an institution, then you have a bureaucracy, which means you create jobs, which means you create services. And then you have a large because nothing else is going on. You have a large number of people that are
00:59:09
Speaker
working and therefore whole families that are dependent on this and then donors come in and then if you don't do this then the donors withdraw their money on other kinds of projects. So the institution is the most insidious part or one of the most insidious parts of the whole Oslo process.
00:59:26
Speaker
What I'm left thinking here, Yara, and this is really for all of us, really, is this issue of saying, we started off by talking about this unbelievable genocide that's taking place in Gaza. It's rendering Gaza totally uninhabitable, at least as of now. We see in the West Bank there's this beginning of the kind of continuation or intensification of invasion, annexation, and I think we should remember that Netanyahu came in,
00:59:54
Speaker
Yara, I think you're correct, but I think he came in on a policy or a platform of wanting to annex the West Bank or large parts of the West Bank, if I remember correctly. But anyway, so this kind of invasion, annexation, and ethnic cleansing, if we are all kind of agreeing that this is not going to stop, so Gaza may or may not stop at a certain point. There may or may not be a ceasefire today, tomorrow, next week, next month. But the ethnic cleansing there in the kind of, let's say, post
01:00:21
Speaker
that genocide part will continue in the guise of humanitarianism and that on the one hand. On the other hand, we're seeing it now in the West Bank and Jerusalem and other places. So if this is going to be the way it's going to be for years, and then we kind of think, well, in this kind of extraordinary moments, how can we think about building institutions? How can we think about mobilizing in terms of politics? How does one get around this?
Unifying Palestinian Factions
01:00:48
Speaker
kind of move on from this where you're not constantly building or simply reacting in this thing. So on the one hand you have, as I was saying, you have resistance movements that come out and these are responding to particular moments. Then building it into political gains
01:01:05
Speaker
This is where there seems to have been an absence for a very, very long time. Even pre-genocide, occupation, etc., but even in moments when there was at least a little bit of time to kind of build something, it didn't seem to be because the Palestinian Authority was so effective in its roots, at least within the West Bank, and Gaza was so effectively isolated from the West Bank even.
01:01:29
Speaker
let alone from the diaspora and from other areas. So it's not really a question, but it's just something I think that's something that we need to be thinking about, how to think about politics and liberation politics that is both resistance on the one hand, but at the same time trying to come up with something that unifies the various, not just factions, but various elements within the Palestinian polity itself.
01:01:55
Speaker
Various constituencies, can you imagine? Various constituents, various constituents to which the BDS is a part of, but it's not going to lead. It has to be a part of as part of a larger political strategy. So it's one thing for the BDS to be something that mobilizes people in the West within a certain kind of politics that makes sense in the West, but then connecting it to the material movements, the resistance movements, the liberation movements that are taking place on the ground and the institution building
01:02:25
Speaker
This is where the big disconnect has been for obvious reasons. It's not easy. I'm not saying it's easy. It's extraordinarily difficult. And the occupation has been extraordinarily successful at that level, in a sense, the passing of authority at the head of this. So it's not really a question, but just something to kind of think about. Yeah, I don't know if there's anything you want to add to that. But as we kind of wrap up and close here,
01:02:52
Speaker
What can I answer that? I guess these are just questions to think about. Anyway, so if there's nothing else, I mean, there's always other things, but I think we need to wrap here. Thank you so much, Yara, for joining us in this discussion. And again, opening up all these questions that we're all going to try to grapple with in the days and weeks and years ahead. So thank you very much. Thank you, Yara. Thank you, Yara. Thanks for having me.
01:03:22
Speaker
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