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S3 Summer Edition - Stephanie Vanhouche
13 Plays18 days ago
In this episode of Dial It In, Trygve Olsen and Dave Meyer have a conversation with Stephanie Vanhhouche, a graphic designer based in the Philippines, who has collaborated with Trygve for over 15 years. They discuss the intricacies of graphic design, particularly focusing on branding, logo design, and the importance of emotional connection in effective branding. Stephanie shares insights into her creative process, her multicultural background, and how she manages to communicate and design for a global audience. The conversation also touches on the use of AI in design, the importance of understanding client needs, and real-world examples of successful branding projects. The episode provides valuable lessons for anyone looking to enhance their brand's identity and resonate with their target audience.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Dial It In'
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to dial it in a podcast where we talk to fascinating people about marketing sales process improvements and tricks that they use to grow their businesses. Join me Dave Meyer and Trigby Olson of busy web as we bring you interviews on how the best in their fields are dialing it in for their organizations.
00:00:26
Speaker
Let's ring up another episode.
Featuring Stephanie, Graphic Designer
00:00:30
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode Online and In Your Ear. Dial it in, our summer rebroadcast of some of the favorite episodes from our staff.
00:00:42
Speaker
This week was an episode that was chosen by producer Andy, which also features Andy, somebody that I've worked with for going on 15 years now. I've never actually talked to in person before we recorded this episode. She's a graphic designer who lives in the Philippines named Stephanie.
00:01:02
Speaker
It's done an amazing amount of work for me over the years and as well as as for busy web. And we had a really amazing discussion that part of as well as, and he is a talented graphic designer as well.
00:01:16
Speaker
So some of the things that we learned from Stephanie was that there really are jobs in graphic design where you can just make logos and brochures and get really good at it.
00:01:28
Speaker
If you're that kind of person, you're artistic and because branding is really about connecting with a certain audience and triggering emotions and feelings. Doesn't really matter where you work around the globe, design and creativity across all aspects of society.
00:01:44
Speaker
I'm proud to somebody I think the world of who also somebody else. I thought the word of took part in in the, in the presentation as well. So please enjoy today's episode.
00:01:58
Speaker
Seriously, this is weird. I came at the right time, the normal recording time and Everybody's got like post-it notes over their camera or something. Are you all here?
00:02:09
Speaker
Where Dave?
00:02:12
Speaker
God, I don't know where anybody is. I don't even know who the guest is.
Sponsor Message: FractionalTactical.com
00:02:17
Speaker
Well, ah hey, welcome everybody to an episode another episode of Dial It In. My name is Trig V. I'm your host.
00:02:24
Speaker
and You don't really know where everybody is, but today's ah episode is sponsored by FractionalTactical.com. As a fractional CMO, your number one goal is to deliver success to each of your clients.
00:02:35
Speaker
With limited time and resources, you need marketing solutions that are data proven, easy to execute, and repeatable. BusyWeb understands the unique challenges marketing executives face. That's why we offer customized solutions for our fractional CMO partners.
00:02:51
Speaker
You tell us the results you need, and we create the strategy and Martech stack to get you there. You have a concrete plan, your clients have measurable results, and you look great. We hope to get there.
00:03:02
Speaker
Everyone wins. Visit fractionaltactical.com to find your tactical marketing partner today. Well, I guess I'll... I mean, Whoa, Greg, you here here? Yeah. Hi.
Stephanie's Background and Experience
00:03:17
Speaker
What's yes. Hello. Sorry. A couple minutes late. Did you, you start already?
00:03:22
Speaker
Well, yeah, we kind of, yeah. What, where is everybody? What are you guys calling? You're here. I'm here. What are you Oh, Dave's not here. Yeah. Yeah. but I love that Cheech and Chark thing.
00:03:37
Speaker
Um, what, uh, um, What is going on, Andy? Where's our guests? Do we have a guest today? Oh, we've got a guest today. Is it Dolly Parton?
00:03:49
Speaker
No, it's not Dolly It's Dolly Parton, isn't it? It's Dolly man. Better than Dolly Parton. Let me just tell you. Okay. you've really You've known this person for over 15 years. Well, it can't be my son. Is it my wife?
00:04:04
Speaker
No, it's not your wife. Okay. It's um somebody you've worked with. you've You've hired her many times before. Andy. Andy.
00:04:14
Speaker
Nicole. Welcome. What are you guys doing? This is the worst radio drama ever. What is going on Did you tell him yet? No. No. You didn't tell him? No, we just started talking about this. So.
00:04:27
Speaker
I was miss it. You didn't miss You didn't miss the bigger. All right. i got to get comfy for this. Oh boy. Nothing like working with the bratest bright best and Bryce. who So somebody I worked with for 15 years who I've hired repeatedly over 15 years. yeah This person probably has one of the best Instagram portfolios on the internet that I've ever seen.
00:04:47
Speaker
In fact, it's not the rock, but that's a, that's a really good guest. Um, no, we, we, we should get the rack though. That'd be an interesting guest. The diff different story, different time.
00:04:59
Speaker
No, she's a, wait a minute. I know. i know. i know what's going on and I know why you haven't told me who the guest is. Why is that? It's cause I've never talked to actually talked to her before. You have never talked to this person before, no. We talked until today. Oh my goodness.
00:05:14
Speaker
yeah you You have told me that you implicitly trust her more than just about anybody else in the world, which is pretty strong. And quite literal, because she's not anywhere close to us in the world. She is not anywhere close to us in the world. Now, so you you know who it is?
00:05:30
Speaker
Is it Stephanie? It is Stephanie. Shut the front door. yeah Stephanie, welcome to the show. Hi guys. Hi Trigvee. It's been a while.
00:05:42
Speaker
One of the longest relationships I've ever had with a woman and probably one of the most successful because I've never talked to her. So yeah, Stephanie is joining us. Oh, how fun. So Stephanie is the founder and creative director of Stephanie Van Hoosch Design.
00:05:59
Speaker
She specializes in custom branding and creative solutions for businesses and with over 15 years of experience. So you knew her way back when she was just starting out, Greg. Stephanie worked with companies to develop designs that authentically represent their brand and connect with their audiences.
00:06:15
Speaker
Her approach blends creativity with strategic insight, helping businesses navigate branding challenges and build cohesive, impactful identities. Stephanie is passionate about guiding companies through the process of crafting visual stories that reflect their values and drive their success.
00:06:33
Speaker
Well, that's a lot of words to say she's amazing. Trigby, you introduced me to Steph, what, probably seven or eight years ago. Seven or eight years ago, yeah. When I had my own business and I did ah logo design, I had hired somebody in India and then he sold me a design that was actually somebody else's. And so I had to go so completely else and I found her. I don't even remember how.
00:06:57
Speaker
And every time that i I used her for logo design, everything was gorgeous. The work was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. We've done Stephanie, how many now? Probably about seven to 10 projects together.
00:07:11
Speaker
i think so. Yeah. i would say around that number 10. Yeah. Every one of them. Absolutely amazing. So, well, well this is so this is so interesting on on a number of different levels because i I think, let's tease this out. We are in the central part of the United States as are we are recording it.
00:07:29
Speaker
Stephanie, where were you born and where did you grow up? I was born in Brussels, Belgium. I grew up mostly around Asia. My dad was a diplomat, so we moved around like every three to four years.
00:07:43
Speaker
And my mom is Filipino, so when my dad retired, he chose the Philippines, obviously, sunnier, nicer. And now I've been living here in the Philippines for the last, yeah, 15 years.
00:07:56
Speaker
um ah So... our go-to logo designer, the person that we know and love the most at Busy Red, is, despite us being in the United States, is Belgian but living in the Philippines. So we literally crisscrossed the globe with her.
00:08:12
Speaker
Oh, my God. This is so wild.
Cultural Influence in Design
00:08:14
Speaker
Okay, so, Steph, first question I want to ask you is, how do you do that when you are working with people all around the globe in all sorts of different languages?
00:08:25
Speaker
How many languages do you speak? Oh, I only speak two. Well, nothing impressive there. no it just French and English, I guess. Yeah.
00:08:37
Speaker
Wow. That, okay. So neat. How do you work with people from around the globe? There's all sorts of different cultures, all sorts of different wants, different needs. How does that get communicated into be able to synthesizing all that down into a picture?
00:08:55
Speaker
Well, I think it helped that I grew up a little bit. like I grew up in various different places, so I got to experience different cultures. I'm biracial, so I'm from two cultures.
00:09:06
Speaker
And I think that that's really helped me designing for people that are in a different country. I love traveling. I draw inspiration um from that. And I mean, the internet is there, so you can really research and learn.
00:09:19
Speaker
you know, find out anything you need to to, kind of educate yourself on what you need to do to create something that is visually fitting for that client. Yeah, I think that's one of the interesting things that a lot of people don't realize is informationally, the world really is flat.
00:09:35
Speaker
And you can find just about anything you need if you know where to look for it. What I started 15, more than that 18, 19 years ago, doing a little bit of design. And then I kind of petered out in terms of my ability, much like my jump shot led you to wanting to get an, want to get the design. Cause for me, i think what I had is I'd have a really good idea and i would be so restless until I got it out and saw it.
00:10:02
Speaker
What was your experience as you, as you started out and in deciding you wanted to become a designer?
00:10:09
Speaker
Well, mean, I've always kind of had a penchant for anything creative. I struggled a lot in high school because it was a lot of reading, a lot of stuff that didn't really interest me.
00:10:20
Speaker
Math, ah geography, all of that. And I would just spend my time like redecorating my notebooks, my diaries. I would customize them.
00:10:31
Speaker
And little did I know that I could make a career out of that. So eventually when I found out, oh, you know, there's this job, it's called graphic design, and you can just, you know, do brochures, logos, and I love that idea. So I jumped right in and I feel like best decision ever. And it's been what, 15 years that I've been doing this, there's not a day that I'm bored or that I you know, feel like I'm running out of inspiration. So I feel it's something that kind of came natural to me. Your expertise really is in logo design and branding.
00:11:03
Speaker
yes There are all sorts of other sort of styles. Is that something that if I just blandly look for a graphic designer that that graphic designer could do well? Well, that's the thing. Most non-professionals don't really understand what branding is really about. They would think that, oh, it's just about creating a little icon or a little picture with the name of my business on it. It's just so much more than that. It's about developing a connection with a specific target audience. It's about triggering emotions and certain feelings it's really connecting to these to to people and that's something that you need to do with with everything you create there are certain stages that you need to go through to get to point a to point v and as a thing about branding it's so much more complex than what most people see and it's really an emotional connection
00:11:55
Speaker
For example, like if you're designing something for food, something for food, you'll want to use round shapes, warm colors, things that are appetizing that, you know, if someone looks at certain design or logo, they feel hungry. So these are things that you don't necessarily think about, but a graphic designer will have to think about all these little elements.
00:12:18
Speaker
What are the things that, what are the sort of the tentpole things that you really need to have a good understanding of that you ask of people?
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, usually ask people to define their brand within one sentence. Like if they had to describe their brand in one sentence, what did that be? And then I like to ask, okay, and if it were one word, what would that be?
00:12:40
Speaker
and then from there, we kind of decide, okay, who's your target audience? What's your message? Who's your message for? How do we deliver that message? So then comes a barrage of questions, but those are really the first questions that I like to ask.
00:12:55
Speaker
But they generally just tell me without me having to ask. ah And I think that that's one of the things that I don't think a ah lot of people have an ah an appreciation for is is all of those questions tend to get filled out in a form. And it's one of those things that that sometimes people hitch on as they think, oh, well, I have to fill out paperwork. Why can't you just make me a pretty picture?
00:13:15
Speaker
Well, yeah you can make them a pretty picture, but it's not necessarily a relevant pretty picture. And that's usually what what's called a creative brief. And that then that that tends to permeate in other things.
00:13:29
Speaker
So Andy, what questions do you have to ask people in order to really start coming up with like a web design, especially as it dovetails in with the logo design? Well, I think Steph hit it on the head. It's who are you talking to?
00:13:42
Speaker
It's what are their needs and wants? What do they hope to get out of the website? Similar to a logo. Who are we trying to communicate with? At what level are we trying to communicate?
00:13:54
Speaker
Are we trying to find someone who's getting just information? Are we trying to sell a product? What are we trying to do on the website? And that really dovetails into a lot of what Steph is trying to do here with logo design as well. We're trying to connect at some level with the persona, which is your ideal ideal buyer, and then engage them in some kind of activity, whether that's selling them a product, giving them information, telling them about what you are as an organization.
00:14:25
Speaker
We've talked with guest guests before about branding and brand identities. Steph, I'm kind of curious what made you decide that this was going to be your focus and how did that this become such a passion for you?
00:14:37
Speaker
And why is this so important for businesses to be businesses to be
Emotional Connection in Branding
00:14:41
Speaker
successful? um means I've always loved, like I mentioned before, I loved design. And initially, I wanted to be a packaging designer. That's what I really wanted. And that's how I started out when I was probably 18 or 19 years old.
00:14:55
Speaker
thing that I realized very quickly is that no one wants to spend on expensive boxes or intricate packaging that costs money to make. but but So from there, I had to kind of, you know, find a new venue.
00:15:10
Speaker
My next best thing was I've always loved working with logos and It kind of grew from there and I had a newfound appreciation because that's where really everything starts. It's from the logo.
00:15:20
Speaker
And it's something that's so simple and so, i don't want to say easy, but it's basically everything just in that little logo design. And that's what makes it so important.
00:15:32
Speaker
One of the things that I've learned from Steph is it's also important to understand how your logo is going to be designed and how it's going to be used. So one of the, one of my earliest designs of the company that I had before I came to work here many years ago, Steph said, well, what do you want to do with this? And I said, well, I wanted a business card and I wanted on shirts and stuff like that. And she said, oh yeah then we need to change it. I said, what do you mean do we need to change it?
00:15:57
Speaker
Because. If things are monogrammed on a, on a shirt, then stitch count matters. And if it's over a certain level, the shirt's not going to look good after a while. And the logo is not going to look good. So it's not just a picture on a paper. It's really a whole identity. And the other thing that she had asked me at the time years ago, which I have repeated hundreds of times in my life since then is you're going to have to look at this every single day. Does this make you happy?
00:16:28
Speaker
And can, can this make you money? So Steph, when do you think a business comes to the conclusion that they really need to change their brand?
00:16:42
Speaker
Ooh, it's an interesting question. You like if they're not selling, if if it's not working, that could mean several things. They didn't hit the mark with their audience. They didn't understand their target audience properly, or they're miscommunicating their message, or they're just something that they're not doing right. Now, you know, you'll have to really go into detail and analyze where they went wrong and pinpoint exactly what they're doing but I mean there are three things that you really need to keep in mind with any brand it's consistency you need to always be consistent in your delivery that way you make an impact you stay memorable i mean it's called branding because it's about making an impression it's about making your mark on your audience so that's something that's very important and number two is understand your target audience as Andy mentioned
00:17:37
Speaker
who they are, what do they like, what do they do. you you know You create a client profile and you go over it. You make you know maybe three client profiles of the typical person that would gravitate towards your brand.
00:17:50
Speaker
And then three is you create a visual that aligns and you kind of create a bridge between those two, between your brand, your message, your core values. And your target audience. So if you miss the mark on any of those three key points, then yes, you may want to kind of revisit that and see, okay, what did I do wrong?
00:18:09
Speaker
What can I work on? So, yeah. Andy, what would you think? When's a good time for a company to have? Because you're you're in design too. and i i would I would go with everything Steph said, but also as you're adding new products or you're changing your focus, you're moving upstream, you're looking at a different audience.
00:18:30
Speaker
An example might be maybe a company starts as a small B2B company. They just work on small B2B brands and now they're moving to mid or large cap.
00:18:41
Speaker
B2B brands and they need to up their image. Maybe they need to change the focus of who they are as an organization, or maybe they've found and stumbled into or developed a new product that takes over the whole brand and they need to actually change the brand to the product rather than to the brand. And the the main corporate becomes a secondary behind that.
00:19:03
Speaker
So. I think one of the things that I see all the time is brands get my brands kid reverted to the least common denominator. You typically see this a lot if you think about home remodelers or real estate agents is they have some variation of some clip art house.
00:19:24
Speaker
with their, their name on it. and And, and like Stephanie smiling is like, yep. Seen a lot of those. I'm done for those too. Done a lot of those. The rule that I've always sort of understood, and I don't remember where I learned it from is in any activity that you're at marketing activity, you have between two and five seconds to get people to look at something.
00:19:46
Speaker
feel good at set about something and then get them to do something. And if you're just like everybody else and you're not unique and in the picture and the logo in which you present, then it's really time to look at it, look at something different.
00:20:01
Speaker
Because then it's just, and then then you're, then you're just like everybody else. And then that's going to affect your sales, which is going to affect your ability to attract the kind of customers you kind of want and, and get to the places where you you really ultimately would like to take your business.
00:20:19
Speaker
Steph, where do you find your creativity? I mean, where do you find your inspiration? You've got the personas, you've got the business model, you've got everything else. How do you then come up with the creative behind it?
00:20:30
Speaker
What is kind of the impetus? Where do you go? What are your sources for for your muses, so to speak?
Sources of Inspiration and Creativity
00:20:39
Speaker
I mean, I, a lot of things. I mean, I watch a lot of movies, love movies.
00:20:46
Speaker
I like, this is a job requirement. No, if I can watch movies and get to the mic. Plus the help though, for me, it does help. Like it's, you know, you watch something that's nice and a little bit artsy and, oh my God, I love the aesthetic. I'm,
00:21:03
Speaker
ah There are so many things to draw inspiration from. I mean, it's it's also difficult because like everyone else, I do sometimes have some creative blocks and that's more difficult. And then you need to kind of change your environment, maybe go for a walk. That helps sometimes.
00:21:21
Speaker
Sometimes I go days I have no idea what I'm doing. It's just, it really depends on the project. And if I have something that, okay, I'll draw inspiration from this because I've traveled to this place or I've seen something that kind of reminds me of this. Okay.
00:21:38
Speaker
Um, God, I'm just like in my head, like rolling through the Rolodexes of her work. Cause I had, and all of my favorites. So one of the things I, Oh, I've always really liked about you is, and and the work you do is sometimes your work exhibits a certain amount of actual utility, which is to say the logo is a pictorial description of what people do as well as who they are and their brand. And the one that I'm thinking of is on your Instagram page. I think it's even on your website.
00:22:08
Speaker
It was for a chiropractor. And I, I forget what the name of it was like good feet chiropractor or something like that. But the actual logo was somebody bending over and touching their toes, which was a, an end result of good chiropractic care is that you can actually do that.
00:22:27
Speaker
So what is the. Sometimes you do that. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes it's relevant. Sometimes you don't. How do you make that decision? to Can you incorporate what the actual product is into the logo?
00:22:41
Speaker
Trying to remember that project. That was there a very long time ago. ah don't exactly remember. We've known each other for a while, but also not really. That's why they're fun. you know I know.
00:22:52
Speaker
I never recall. This was ages ago. I've... Don't remember the exact creative process that I went through for that. I just one thing that I do remember, the client did not choose that logo.
00:23:04
Speaker
That was one of the options that I gave them, yet they did not go with that. off Oh, my God. And that ah that that that angers me terribly because nobody ever picks the right one. How do you handle that as a creative?
00:23:17
Speaker
Because i know for me, it's really frustrating, right? So how do you as a creative when you know that the best option is a but they choose f I mean, what they say the client is always right.
00:23:31
Speaker
That applies to the world of branding as well. And also something that's very important that one of my mentors in art school had told me was, remember, Steph, you were not an artist. You're not Picasso. Yeah.
00:23:45
Speaker
It's all about the client. Your job is not to infuse any personal ah self-expression or personal artistic style in what you do. It's always about the client's needs. It's always about the brand. It's always about the message, target audience.
00:24:01
Speaker
So I guess when the client picks something that I personally feel is the wrong decision, i always advise them, of course, ah give them some professional advice, like, okay, Maybe this option would be a better fit.
00:24:15
Speaker
Obviously, everything I present to the client is going to work. It's just I do have a preference for something that's a little bit more creative, but not everyone is creative. Not everyone thinks the way I do. So you kind of leave your ego at the door and just, you know, let them have final say. One of the things that one of my art professors used to teach me was never present anything that you can't live with.
00:24:41
Speaker
in perpetuity. So if you've got that design that you're like, eh, they're probably going to like this, but I really don't think that it's going to work. Don't even present it. Just, it doesn't even make the table cuts.
00:24:53
Speaker
I'm going to wholly disagree with you there because the client is not always right. And there is typically... The meetings in which Andy and I have to get together after meetings and scream loudly and therapeutically is when people choose the wrong logo. So as an example,
00:25:13
Speaker
The last project that we did was for a company that had, that wanted to use a variation of the theme power. And you did five or six logo designs to start.
00:25:25
Speaker
Half of them were lightning bolt things and okay, fine. And it was, and it and it was fine. And the last one, which was truly just gobsmacking amazing was It was the end of a power cord, a three prong power cord, which then if you consider it, it's the two flat things. And then the little, the the little rounded thing. And then you had wrapped the power cord around and the, those, those two things. So was that like, you were looking at the power cord.
00:25:59
Speaker
at the end of it and turn it into a face and then turn the cord into a smile smiley face, which also happened to look exactly like the at sign. And we went to the client, we were like, this is the most amazing thing we've ever seen. This is brilliant. Why wouldn't you choose that? But that's kind of part of the process, right? Is you come up with a great idea and the client says, no, give me the other one.
00:26:22
Speaker
I mean, as long as they pick something I present, Yeah, well, yeah, but they that those that client picked wrong. And I'll always say that. And then, you know, they're happy now and they're they're enjoying the brand, but, you know you know, they picked wrong. So, okay. So, Seb, when people are thinking about, you know, their branding challenges, what are sort of the most common things that you see in terms of challenge ah ah challenges of brand and how do you go about solving
00:26:51
Speaker
I think the most common one, the biggest one that I've seen in most of my clients is, I think I mentioned this earlier, inconsistent branding.
00:27:02
Speaker
And I think that stems from having so many people have their hands on the brand and handling the branding. It goes through several departments. several people, it kind of turns into this game of Chinese whispers where you end up with a ah logo that doesn't look like what it's supposed to look like using different colors or using ah you know, various fonts, and then you kind of lose, it dilutes the message of the brand. And that's when, okay, a good way to solve this and what I've done very early on in my career was I would just tell a company, okay, I'm going to come in for a couple of weeks.
00:27:41
Speaker
I'll design a brand book, which I like to call the brand Bible. I'll put everything in there, compile everything, color codes, fonts, how to like do's and don'ts for the logo.
00:27:53
Speaker
safety space, proportions, background colors, options, all kinds of things that would help with advertising, with marketing. And I go there and I create that brand Bible and then I kind of go through each department and walk them through it. Cool. So what is what exactly is your process for crafting a brand identity?
00:28:14
Speaker
Cause I've already, since I met you, i basically adopted your process and that's what I've talked to people about ever since. Well, the first step, and obviously the most critical, important key step would be to, you know, the discovery stage. That's where you're introduced to the brand, where you get to learn about the brand.
00:28:35
Speaker
And I think that communication is very important. Communicating with your client, kind of, you know, talking to them, asking them questions, or having them basically just give you all the information they have is always helpful.
00:28:49
Speaker
And then you get to learn about the target audience, like I mentioned earlier, client profiles, who are you talking to what message are you delivering? So that's the first stage. And then the second stage is coming up with a visual identity. And what I like to do is I like to provide a variety of concepts that I feel the nail on the head.
00:29:11
Speaker
so and just i i want to pause your narrative here because there's something i illustrative that I want to say. As somebody who's supported your work for well over a decade now, um There's two things that I get in response when people talk about discovery is three things. Number one, they'll either say, okay, number two, they'll say, well, I don't have any of that information.
00:29:29
Speaker
Well, that point, then a logo, a new logo really can't save you. And that's not, that's a new logo that won't help. Number three is people say, i don't want to pay you to learn about my business.
00:29:41
Speaker
You should know, you should know that all already. And at that point, if you're, ah if you're an aspiring artist, if you're a real serious graphic designer, that's your opportunity to say, well, bye then. Thanks. Yeah.
00:29:53
Speaker
Because then that person's just looked at looking to check a box and they want you to put five pretty pictures in front of you. Not things that resonate, not things that can actually make you money and do something interesting.
00:30:06
Speaker
yeah So, all right, continue. We're at the picture stage. Yeah, so I like designing a variety of options for them to look at. I call it a design sample platter.
00:30:17
Speaker
and and from there, you kind of build. So that helps me also know what the client likes, dislikes. And then it's easier to build off when you already have something to work with. So they'll just tell me I like this color.
00:30:29
Speaker
I feel like I connect more with this type of font or this shape. And then you kind of keep going from there until you develop something that the client is happy with and that you know will work well with the target audience as well.
00:30:43
Speaker
And people really do emotionally connect with things. There's always that, what was the SNL sketch? Why have I turned into an angry old man who can't remember remember funny things today? Are you talking about the papyrus sketch? The papyrus sketch, yes.
00:30:56
Speaker
um Oh, the avatar logo? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that. I've seen that. papyrus yeah and that's i think it's just because everybody sees stuff all the time and they feel and they like what they like and they don't like what they don't like but yeah that is that is a class that that is a class i don't remember what my point is i'm just so flummoxed that i'm actually talking to staff today How do you measure creativity with measurable results?
00:31:24
Speaker
Like how, you know, if somebody wanting to invest in ah in a brand and they say, well, I want r ROI on that. is Is there real ways to do that? Andy, I want you to chime in there too. I'll start. Steph's thinking about this one. yeah how How do you measure ROI on a creative in any way, shape or form? I think whether it's a website, whether it's a logo, whether it's a brand guideline or any kind of marketing material, the way you measure ROI is, did you make the sale?
00:31:52
Speaker
the the the Did the numbers start going in the right direction? Did it... get recognized? Are you top of mind the next time somebody needs to make a choice for whatever product or service that you're selling?
00:32:07
Speaker
All of those go into the ROI. So it's not just going to be the brand. It's not just going to be the website. It's not just going to be the trade show booth, but all of that works together in conjunction to keep you top of mind and keep you front of presence or when somebody is looking for that product or service.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think my answer to to that would be, ah you know, are you making more or less money than you did before?
Role of AI in Design
00:32:33
Speaker
And if, and to as Steph, as you said, if, if you're really not making enough money, it means you're not resonating with the people you're talking to.
00:32:40
Speaker
It either means you're not talking to the right people or you have a you have a brand issue. So it's, it's difficult to, and it kind of leads me to my next question is with the advent of ai Well, first of all, let's start there.
00:32:53
Speaker
How has your experience been with image generation? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? you use it? I mean, for me, I had to learn how to use it. And I know, Andy, we've done a couple of stuff with Midjourney, and I've actually been working more with it.
00:33:12
Speaker
And I took a couple of courses for that as well. ah generate the proper prompts. I know there was like a project where I had to create a recurring character mid-journey so there's like specific prompts keywords to use so that's something that I had to kind of look into and you don't really have a choice as a designer in order to stay relevant you have to implement these tools and it won't replace you I don't feel like I'm my job is being threatened by AI like I said it's humans are emotional creatures
00:33:45
Speaker
AI will never be able to replace or mimic human emotion the same way. um So you can always use these tools to your advantage and kind of help you with your work.
00:33:57
Speaker
And so yeah, mid-journey, GPT. I know ai is now also like they've integrated it into the Adobe Creative Suite. So now you have Photoshop generating prompts as well. You can use that too.
00:34:10
Speaker
And just type in instead of using your little lasso to cut out someone off the photo, you can do that automatically in the click of a button and then just go in and clean it up. That saves me an hour of work right there. So yeah.
00:34:24
Speaker
Definitely. it's It's a great tool, but it's not something that will ever replace real design that connects with humans. And it also doesn't it doesn't come up with really good ideas.
00:34:36
Speaker
The thing about design is working with the real human is especially if they're simpatico, like with you, I've always felt like if i I, if I say I need a bear riding a motorcycle from the 1950s, wearing a red helmet, you and I have always had this odd simpatico that when I get back a bear riding a 1954 Indian or a Harley Davidson wearing a red, like red helmet,
00:35:05
Speaker
It's exactly what I wanted in my head, but there's just, those concepts are so interpretive. There's thousands of different ways to get there. And just using a tool means that you have to go through like, like chat GPT is you're going to have to go through all those tools. It's it's, it's going to be the thing you want, but also it's not.
00:35:25
Speaker
And it's, it's that emotional reaction to go, well, that's not what I wanted. Why am I doing this? That's the value of working with ah designers. I get to what, what, what you, he you want certainly quicker. And I think and one of the things that Andy and I do, especially when we use chat GPT and those things is we always like to do the count the fingers game.
00:35:46
Speaker
When you ask it to make pictures of people, it's how many fingers do they have? And I think Dave and I did a webinar recently where we talked about AI, ah innovations in AI, and he even purposefully used a woman who had six fingers on one hand and then three on the other.
00:36:02
Speaker
and then he yeah said, then the the prop was, use that same woman to make a different picture. And then the the fingers switched switched hands. So the right hand all now had three fingers and the left hand now had six fingers. so It's, it's, it's absolutely not a replacement. And that's one of the things that reasons why I wanted to ask you the question stuff is that, yeah, you can do a lot of fun things with it, but when it's going to be the, the picture on your wall, on your business cards, taped to the side of your trucks, the thing on your shirts, it, ne no, just, just, just no, he use, use real, real people who have a real create creative, for sure. I want to wrap up by a couple of things. Number one is
00:36:46
Speaker
I think one of the questions that I always struggle with, with people is they say, how much does all of this cost? And what, can you just give me a price?
00:37:00
Speaker
Trigvi, Trigvi, we never talked to Ellers and Cents on the show. Never. ah Well, yeah, I know, but I, and I, I get that, but I want to talk about a little bit about why it's hard to answer that question. Sure.
00:37:13
Speaker
Sure. Well, I mean, every project is different. Every client's need is different. You can't just slap one price on it. It's also the scope of work. So you need to really define that and then give your price. So it's difficult to throw just, oh, a number. Oh, it's like this much.
00:37:32
Speaker
No, it really depends on what the client is looking for. If there's going to be a lot more work required, a lot more research required, it really depends. Yeah,
Pricing Challenges in Design
00:37:43
Speaker
I think that's fair. And I think the problem in answering that question of how much is you're dealing with something where you are trying to get somebody to take the thing in their head and then your job is to translate it into a real thing.
00:37:59
Speaker
And You have really have absolutely no control over whether or not you nailed it or not. So the most appropriate thing, and I think, and this is kind of how we approach it together, Steph, you, me, and Andy is here's what, here's the work we're willing to put in.
00:38:16
Speaker
And then here's what the price for that work is. We're hoping that we're going to nail it. Most of the time we nail it. If we don't nail it, we're gonna, we're gonna need to keep going. But that's how you'd really define how much this is, is how much really goes in, um how much effort goes into it in order to get the thing out of the client's head and down into a usable form.
00:38:38
Speaker
And so what I don't think a lot of people realize is they have, they are participating in that effort. Because they have an obligation to give you the things that you need in order to create the logo that they want.
00:38:52
Speaker
And if they can't do that, that's not on you. And that's not a fault of the designer by any means in order to get there. And that's something that I think not a lot of people really realize is if you can't talk about what you want, if you can't really exclaim what you want, you can't just say, oh, just make it bigger. Or can you make it, make it more red?
00:39:12
Speaker
Yep, I absolutely agree. Or you have those clients that, oh, I'll know when I see it. Or this is not what I want, but I can't tell you why. that definitely makes the creative process a lot more difficult.
00:39:29
Speaker
And then you have more around more work, more hours. so Yeah, and that's that's just a constant source of frustration. And I think every graphic designer has make the logo bigger printed on a t-shirt somewhere in their closet.
00:39:42
Speaker
because it it doesn't actually help. So I think, you know, we always like to try and talk about illustrative lessons on this show on what people, what what people should really do is, is I think the first one is, you know, yeah AI robots can help, but real actual design work is, is, is truly game changing for a business. Number two is It is a symbiotic relationship. You work with the right designer to get the thing that you want that will actually make you make you money for sure. Seth, what's the the logo that you made that was the most proud of that did the most good?
00:40:12
Speaker
Tell us about, can you tell us about the business and tell us about the logo? Definitely for fitness brand that i designed for. And I think that the reason why that project is so dear to me, it was because one, I love fitness. So I got to combine something that i love with, you know, design, which I also love.
00:40:32
Speaker
And I also got to see that brand grow. So I was really there from the beginning to the end of the project. So this was a logo that I designed. It was for a brand that started pre-COVID.
00:40:44
Speaker
And I got to see that fitness brand really blow up during the pandemic when fitness was a lifeline for so many. And then I got to see that brand kind of transform itself again post-pandemic era.
00:40:57
Speaker
And now this brand is just a behemoth. It has an app, a fitness app, a nutrition line, a clothing line, podcast. It's just so much more. And it was just great to see how people connected with that and they share their experience with the brand. And then you get to see, OK, I was part of a brand that helped people reach their goals, their personal goals.
00:41:18
Speaker
and just promote wellness, health. So just a great project to be part of and something that I still work on. you know, I'm still working on that project until today and we keep evolving and just adding to the brand.
00:41:32
Speaker
and think my favorite work that you ever did, mike because I am longtime fan, is You did a logo for B&B that is somewhere in the world, bret bed and breakfast hotel called the Puzzle Ranch.
00:41:49
Speaker
and oh Puzzle Mansion. Yeah, the Puzzle Mansion. And logo is the front gate of the Puzzle Mansion, but where the gate meets, instead of meeting like like Wayne Manor, it's two puzzle pieces.
00:42:05
Speaker
And so what that always taught me is is a couple of things that sometimes simple is better. And sometimes what a logo should do is not necessarily have that utility of clearly stating what the whole experience is. You get you imagine what's behind the gates and what what comes after that.
00:42:24
Speaker
which yep and a local business too so you you can go it's in tagaitai it's still it's still there to this day yeah oh fun so trig i think we need to take a trip that's yeah road trip road trip water trip plane trip something well david if we if you don't have a problem with us going say so now all right, well, let's pack the bags. All right.
00:42:50
Speaker
Steph, thank you so much for joining us. It has been ah one of the great joys of my professional career to have found you and met you and to be able to have the trust to be able to work with you for as as long as I have. And I'm so glad that you're part of of our team here IzzyWeb. And because there's never a dull moment and it's always been amazing work.
00:43:09
Speaker
And I'm so, so glad to have you as as part of our team. This is wonderful surprise. Thank you, Nicole, for doing this, by the way. I can't believe you actually pulled this off and she stayed up this lake to talk to us. If someone wants to see your work, find out more about you, how do they find you?
00:43:24
Speaker
Through my website. but yeah I think that would easiest, yes. Definitely through the website and my contact information is there anyways. okay f what's next for your design career where are you going oh i don't know it's been 15 years i just i hope that eventually i keep learning keep adding to my skill set and then eventually stop learning and maybe pass the reins on to the next generation but that's obviously in like 20 30 years nice nice so yeah that would be the the end goal
00:43:59
Speaker
Well, thanks so much for joining us again. Yes, this is what ah what an amazing treat. And thank you, Andy and Nicole, for pulling this off. It's been, yeah, I just have always adored her. So this this has been great.
00:44:10
Speaker
So thank you. so this has been another episode of Dial It In, produced by Andy Watowski and Nicole Fairclaw. I am Trigvi. Dave will be back for our next next episode. And much like gets Tony Kornheiser, with apologies to him, we will try and do better the next time.