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📱 "The courageous choice" - Verena Kitowski from Fairphone on sustainability as a choice in marketing
82 Plays7 months ago
Verena Kitowski is leading the customer journey and channel marketing teams at Fairphone, a social enterprise that is leading the market for sustainable and ethical electronics. In her role she is responsible for strategies that aim to support customers in using their products longer. Before joining Fairphone in Amsterdam, she was part of the founding team of an electric car company in Sweden and has experience with early stage impact startups.
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Transcript
Exploring Holistic Sustainability
00:00:00
Speaker
Sustainability can be so holistic. There are so many nuances to it. There's so much information to it. And it's not only about CO2 footprint. I think also in that space, you have to sometimes still take the time or the extra little bit of energy to educate people on why something is now a more sustainable option than something else.
Introducing Future Strategies with Florian Schleicher
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to Future Strategies. I'm your host, Florian Schleicher.
00:00:29
Speaker
And this show is my gift to you. In honest conversations with inspiring marketing leaders, we explore how marketing and strategies can achieve sustainable growth. If you would like to apply this to your own projects, that's exactly what I do as a strategist, coach, and workshop facilitator. I'm here to help you build the marketing of your futures. So let's jump right into it.
00:01:01
Speaker
I've been especially looking forward to this episode.
Verena Kitovsky and the Fairphone Journey
00:01:04
Speaker
Verena Kitovsky is leading the customer journey in channel marketing teams Fairphone, a social enterprise that is leading the market for sustainable and ethical electronics. In her role, she is responsible for strategies that aim to support customers in using their products longer. Before joining Fairphone in Amsterdam, she was part of the founding team of an electric car company in Sweden
00:01:27
Speaker
and has experience with early stage impact startups. It's so great to have you with me here today, Verena. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks a lot. So let's start with the basics. What is Fairphone and how did this company start to exist? Yeah, so Fairphone, we make smartphones, in short, the most ethical and sustainable smartphones that are in the market today. We're based in Amsterdam. Fairphone was founded in Amsterdam as well.
00:01:57
Speaker
But the story is quite unusual because Fairphone actually started as an awareness campaign. Back in 2010, there was really a big issue with what is called conflict minerals in the industry. Conflict minerals were used in a lot of electronics materials. So the founder Bas van Abel started with wanting to raise awareness about this.
00:02:19
Speaker
And out of that, actually a few years later, then Fairphone was founded really as a business, as a social enterprise. That's what we are still today. And really the aim is to show the industry that you can make a smartphone more ethically and sustainable and still be a profitable business.
00:02:37
Speaker
Before we dive a little bit deeper into what Fairphone is doing and why you are addressing a huge problem also, I would also love to understand what do you do in your role leading the customer service and marketing team?
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, so my role is basically a split. On the one hand, I'm leading the channel marketing team. And there we focus actually on all the marketing activities that we have with our commercial partners across Europe. So it's very acquisition focused. And on the other side, I'm leading the customer journey team. And there we focus a lot on customer experience, on retention.
00:03:13
Speaker
And on brand engagement, you know, during the time that customers use our products. So there it's a lot more focused on customer satisfaction, I would say. Okay. So about Fairphone, you mentioned that there is a lot of problem with the resources in the industry. For those who are listening and think, wait, why is there a problem? So what's the problem with smartphones?
The Smartphone Waste Crisis
00:03:37
Speaker
There's a very simple calculation that everyone can use to make the problem more visible. Every year, about 1.5 billion phones get sold per year in the world. We actually have more phones in the world than people at this point.
00:03:54
Speaker
They only get used about two to three years. That's still the average lifespan. In some countries, it's expanding, but on average, still two to three years. Then only 20% of the phones get recycled after use, and the others end up most of the time in drawers. If you add up those three data points, let's say, then you really see that in the smartphone world, circularity basically doesn't exist. All of the raw materials that are in the phone
00:04:23
Speaker
They actually stay in the phone, stay in drawers. And there's a big need for constantly sourcing new raw materials. And the raw materials that are in phones
00:04:32
Speaker
are many times sourced under very inhumane and bad working conditions. All of them, but there are really a lot of different materials in the phone that have a very long and complex supply chain. So really from the mining to the refining, a lot of these processes take a lot of energy. I always like to visualize it as you have to turn a stone and a mineral into something that's basically a mini computer.
00:05:00
Speaker
takes a lot of energy throughout this process. And that's where really the entire supply chain and smartphones, electronics in general, is actually very far from being a circular product. Yeah, I've heard that e-waste or electronic waste is the world's fastest growing waste stream at the moment. And we have an estimated 50 million tons of electronic waste that is produced every year.
00:05:25
Speaker
which weighs more than all commercial airliners ever made. And just as you mentioned, 20% of that waste is recycled. Yeah. And it's really a big problem. And if you think about it, like buying a new TV, buying a new phone, buying new headphones, it's such a fast purchase. People don't even think about it anymore and nobody
00:05:52
Speaker
is really equipped or educated or maybe willing to repair those things. In the past, maybe you still know from your parents when the washing machine broke, there were companies specialized on coming to repair. And these days, usually the cost for the repair is so much higher than actually just buying the new one. And that is also part of the problem that things are not repairable anymore and it's not affordable enough to repair electronics.
00:06:20
Speaker
And apart from not being able to repair it or that there are no more experts about this, there's this thing called planned obsolescence, which is basically that producers plan that the product breaks down mostly after two years because in the EU we have a warranty up until two years. So then the product breaks down and then unfortunately you have to buy a new one or if you can find someone who can repair it, of course. So I have currently this issue with
00:06:50
Speaker
my TV screen, I think I bought it five, six years ago. And now I see there is a line where the pixels are just not working anymore. So I called customer support, of course, and I said, okay, what can we do about this? And they said, basically, it costs you less if you just buy a new TV set.
00:07:12
Speaker
which feels super irresponsible and not sustainable at all.
Fairphone's Approach: Repairability and Modularity
00:07:17
Speaker
So now that we know that the electronics industry and especially smartphone industry has a big problem, what are you at Fairphone doing about this? What is your thing that you work on?
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah, so we have different impact areas, as we call them. So we really try to solve these problems along the entire lifecycle of the phone. So one part is, of course, the mining sector, raw materials, where do things come from, who's impacted, who actually are the people in the mines working
00:07:49
Speaker
Working on forcing those materials that's one of our impact areas because we know that it will take decades to really move to a fully circular market where we have where you know where every other materials get recycled on a continuous basis that will realistically you know yeah it will take decades to get there so in the meantime
00:08:10
Speaker
we have to improve working conditions in the mining sector, and especially in what is called artisanal mining, where people are really working with their hands and with minimal equipment. That's one of our areas. The other is then to improve working conditions in the final assembly lines. We actually assemble like the big majority of electronics gets assembled in China, so we also actually work there with our
00:08:38
Speaker
with our manufacturers. And then what is a big part of actually solving the problem is that our products are fully repairable. So we actually, you know, our products, and that's the phones, but also our headphones that designed in a fully modular way. And with that, we really want to bring back this repairability that we just talked about and actually making it easy for everybody to make
00:09:04
Speaker
to do those repairs at the kitchen table basically. All you need is a standard screwdriver and there's a few screws and you can replace your phone screen as an example, which is a repair that, again, many times is causing people to buy a new phone because we're placing a broken screen, right? Everybody knows the spider app. Yeah, basically it can cost a lot of money. And that's what we really try to tackle on the customer side.
00:09:33
Speaker
that you can do this in an affordable and super easy way at home.
00:09:37
Speaker
That sounds all amazing. And now I would like to play devil's advocate a little bit because you just mentioned the typical smartphone is replaced every two to 2.5 years. You give out a five-year warranty. Users can repair the phone with 10 modular spare parts. You give up to 10 years software updates, which is also unheard of. And I've seen multiple reports. Your smartphone is the most sustainable one out there.
00:10:07
Speaker
So why is it not also the most used smartphone out there? That's a very nice challenge actually. Indeed. I think there's a few things that come together here. So one is actually that we are tiny in a market of giants. I mean, really from a brand perspective, we are still quite an unknown brand. There's a lot of money, a lot of advertising money in this space.
00:10:33
Speaker
Apple and Samsung, of course, dominate the market by far, and then there are some other big brands. But it's really a game of size. There is also, of course, a level of
00:10:47
Speaker
In the end, as a small manufacturer, there's a lot of economies of scale at hand, where when we knock on the door of a supplier for displays, for example, or a specific supplier, of course, we don't have the same economies of scale there. Also, our price point.
00:11:04
Speaker
is maybe a bit different than for the big established manufacturers. I think people also need to build trust to a brand. The smartphone specifically is the most used product in your daily life. Absolutely. People really depend on their phone. Of course, we also have to do a lot there to grow the trust that people really decide for quite an unknown brand.
00:11:27
Speaker
rather than going with an established brand. They know how it works, you know, they know where they can find support. And of course, for an unknown brand like Fairphone, we actually have to do quite a lot more work here to convince people. That brings us actually to the marketing side and the brand side. So what
Building Trust Through Storytelling and Engagement
00:11:45
Speaker
is it? Where do you put most of your marketing resources and where does your team put the most focus on to get you there and to build this reputation, the trust?
00:11:55
Speaker
I think we focus a lot on building the trust on the one hand, you know, through
00:12:01
Speaker
PR work to actually format what we can really tell our story and really raise awareness. Because I always like to say, if you don't know what's unfair about the industry, you also don't know why you should choose fair. We also have quite an education work to do sometimes to make ourselves relevant. We also, of course, try to grow trust through things like reviews,
00:12:26
Speaker
that we publish super transparently. We ask our existing customer base for feedback and implement and actually action a lot of the feedback. We of course try to advertise as well a bit where it's relevant and where it's possible. And in the end, we also try to work with our customers and try for them to speak about Fairphone and really use their word of mouth in telling their friends and family about the phone that they use.
00:12:56
Speaker
When you were talking about the problem that you need to talk about, there is this quote, I think it's from David Ogilvie, but I have to check, which was, if you talk about fire extinguishers, start with talking about fire. Yeah, I like it. You first need to figure out and talk about the problem before you can communicate a solution.
00:13:16
Speaker
Do you find it easy to talk about this problem? Because probably people don't like to hear about problems if you say to them, hey, your smartphone actually causes problems. Not something nice to say. So what is a good way of getting this problematic message across and then building on that with, hey, but there is a solution to that. Yeah. Now you really touch a good point here because it's really a challenge that we have, you know, it's there's some really
00:13:44
Speaker
Yeah, horrible things, you know, things like child labor or armed conflict, you know, in the supply chains. And indeed, this is not something, you know, I mean, yeah, we do talk about it, but the format is important here and you do want to keep it positive as well.
00:14:00
Speaker
And in that sense, we always have this baseline of being positive and not pointing fingers too much, but rather setting good examples and rather showing what we do, what consumers can do, also what other players in the industry can do.
00:14:15
Speaker
you know, to to actually change something. Yeah, I would say that's, that's it. And one of the thing to give a concrete example, you know, we always say also to consumers, the most sustainable phone is actually they one day or the one they already have. It's really the most sustainable choice is always to just use longer what you already have. And as long as it's working fine, you know, don't don't buy something new. And also in that case, don't buy a new smartphone, you know, and so we try to really make
00:14:45
Speaker
make people think a bit, you know, in general also about the purchase decisions they make.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah, makes sense. I also saw there was an advertisement by a clothing company and they also wrote that the most sustainable piece of clothing is none at all. And there is this one clothing company, Reformation, they are producing high fashion in a more sustainable way. And they have this claim, being naked is number one in sustainability, we are number two, which is also, I think, a nice take on this.
00:15:17
Speaker
In terms of messaging, so you kind of have three main messages. You're communicating about sustainability, you're communicating about fairness, and then durability. Which one do you focus on the most? Which one is easiest to get across and to get people's attention on?
00:15:35
Speaker
That's a good question. And it really depends a little bit on the audience, because there is an audience that is very much focused on, let's say, the planet, you know, unlike any topics that relate to climate change or to natural destruction, for example.
00:15:51
Speaker
But there is also an audience who's very much focused on human rights, for example, and, you know, and working conditions globally. So it depends a bit on the audience. And then we do also have an audience who is much more interested in repairability and a bit the techy parts, you know, transparency behind our products, because we do also publish, for example,
00:16:15
Speaker
the schematics of our phones, which is unheard of. But that also again increases the option for repairability for the people who are more skilled on that level. But that is a bit more of a techie topic, I would say. So it depends a little bit on the audience and we also try to adjust slightly based on the audience, what we highlight more basically.
00:16:39
Speaker
And do you then segment the audiences via the channels or how do you get in touch with the techies more and then maybe with the human rights activists another time? Yeah, I mean, we try to find the balance, but we do switch a bit based on channels. For example, on TikTok, it's a little bit lighter content, a bit more lifestyle, a bit more, indeed, the repairability because it's very visual and you can show it easily.
00:17:05
Speaker
We have a community forum, for example, where, you know, that is fully actually it's hosted by us, but it's completely run by community members. And that is where some of the more techy people, let's say, and tech interested people like to engage. Yeah. So it depends a bit on the channel.
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah, makes sense. Something else I wanted to ask you because last autumn, there was a lot of talk about Apple and their sustainability campaign. A huge spot with Octavia Spencer as Mother Earth. What did you think of their move to shift to sustainability as a marketing strategy and the green marketing space?
Apple vs Fairphone: A Sustainability Marketing Comparison
00:17:43
Speaker
And second, what were your thoughts on the ads per se?
00:17:47
Speaker
Yeah, so I think it's really in the wording of your question because it's a marketing strategy. And for us, it's sustainability and making a more ethical product. It's not a marketing strategy. It's really at the core of our business.
00:18:03
Speaker
I mean, we have, for example, I mean, we have, of course, we are responsible towards our shareholders, you know, for sales figures and being financially healthy, but we are actually in the same way, also responsible for our impact goals. For example, how many ethical materials do we have or fair materials, as we call them? How long do our customers keep their phones?
00:18:28
Speaker
How many people in our supply chain benefits from our products? And how much electronic waste do we collect and add back to the waste to the recycling stream? So these are the KPIs that yeah, we actually audit fully and we are fully responsible for we publish it in the same way as we publish financial results. So, you know, it's it's so
00:18:52
Speaker
implemented in all of our governance structures and our way of working and it's not only a marketing strategy so i would really say it's really that's really the core of the difference.
00:19:04
Speaker
And many times we find that we have so much to say about all these different topics, that it's almost a challenge to go back down to what is really now the message we want to put in our advertisement, because typically we have so much to say about the different elements of sustainability.
00:19:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think focus is a huge point in marketing always, like marketing has to be simple. People's lives are already full of information and the tension spans get lower and lower. So our job is really to keep it simple for them because of course we want to communicate as brands a lot to them, but they don't want to hear a lot about us. And that's where you have to draw a fine line and see what you can really get across. Coming back to the Apple spot,
00:19:52
Speaker
The technicalities I would leave aside, but what I think what it achieved was it showed an industry that sustainability is an important topic because Apple, they play a huge role in the market simply in terms of market share and they showed everyone, okay.
00:20:09
Speaker
This topic is important and we're doing something and we can argue about something there. But I think that's what was important with this campaign in terms of sustainability angle. Because what we see is that, and that's maybe also part of the problem that sustainability has at the moment, there is so much talk about sustainability.
00:20:32
Speaker
And 90% of consumers say they are ready to change to a more sustainable lifestyle. And then only 10% change, actually. We see that in the sustainability reports where the companies publish, we're doing a great job here, we're having these initiatives. And then when you look at their CO2 emissions and their footprint, it's huge.
00:20:55
Speaker
Do you think sustainability as itself has an image problem and that it's too much talking and not so much action?
The Role of Education in Sustainability
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think that one way to look at it, yes, it has more of an educational problem, you know, because sustainability can be so holistic. There's so many nuances to it. There's so much information to it, you know, and it's not only about CO2 footprint. I mean, yeah, that's one important part of it, but it's really not
00:21:26
Speaker
not everything and I think you know as consumers it can be also quite overwhelming and you want to as you said before right you have to make so many choices and you already get so much information you also kind of rely on companies being transparent and explicit about what is really not the sustainable benefit of their products and I think also companies have to learn that I mean that's also skill sets you know how do you make
00:21:52
Speaker
Claims for, you know, all so-called green claims and how do you do that? There's actually now slowly coming, more and more legislation is coming in this market also to avoid greenwashing. You know, I want to give the benefit of the doubt that sometimes also in companies, they just lack the knowledge and the experience on these topics. So I think there's really on the consumer side, on the company side, yeah, there's a lot there to catch up on.
00:22:17
Speaker
And to make these things more clear and that it doesn't feel like it's only talking, but that there's actually a bit of substance to such claims in marketing campaigns. Talking about marketing campaigns, I think marketing was definitely one of the factors that brought us into the climate crisis.
00:22:38
Speaker
But I think it can also play a huge role in getting us out of there because in the end, marketing changes people's behavior and we can change it also for better. So I would also be curious about what does sustainability mean for you as a marketeer, as someone who advertises.
Transparency and Responsibility in Advertising
00:23:00
Speaker
How do you do that in a sustainable and conscious way that you don't manipulate people?
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a fair question. And it's also something that we debate a lot internally about, you know, because when it really comes to advertising, of course, you have to grab people's attention and you have very limited time and you have to kind of stand out of all the all the noise that people have in their daily life. I would say where we try to then really be transparent and be relevant after also the first clicks, right? Like so on our website,
00:23:35
Speaker
Once you are actually interested, once we have your interest, we really want to give you the full story and explain properly what our products are solving and what are actually the unique things about it. So of course, you kind of have to get the first click and you kind of have to get the attention first, but we are extremely transparent actually also about we claim and we always try to be
00:24:01
Speaker
you know, quite relevant. Also, also, for example, in our email campaigns, you know, to always make sure that we don't advertise or, you know, push at all new products to people when we know they already bought one of our products. You know, that's one of our principles, for example, when we talk about customer-based campaigns. Yeah, so we always, we always keep
00:24:21
Speaker
Keep it in mind to not create too many call of actions for making a new purchase when we know they just bought a product a year ago and we rely on that product still being in good shape and working fine. Yeah. And you already touched upon transparency is very important in sustainable communications. You talked about authenticity.
00:24:43
Speaker
What else would you say if another brand now comes across and say, hey, we have sustainability as the core of our business strategy, but we have trouble in getting it across? What would you recommend them focusing their communication, their marketing about? Yeah, I mean, I would still focus on talking about the problem you're solving, right? Which for some people, the problem is that they cannot find a more sustainable choice on the market, for example.
00:25:13
Speaker
In the context of smartphones, yeah, there's a lot of products to choose from all kinds of price categories, all kinds of technical specs. But yeah, what people might be missing is actually guidance on what's the most sustainable product, if that's what they find important. So I would really consider more sustainable choice as actually consumer benefit.
Marketing Sustainable Choices as Consumer Benefits
00:25:39
Speaker
and to really try to use it in our established way of talking about consumer benefits. Interesting. Yeah, I get it. I have a bunch more questions about Fairphone, but as we're already very advanced in the timing, I would like to switch to the three final questions and maybe we can talk about the other questions another time. Yeah. So first question is, what is good marketing to you in just three words?
00:26:07
Speaker
I would say relevance to really only approach people when you know they're in the market for a new product. Transparency to really check your claims, you know, no brainwashing, especially in the space of more sustainable solutions and being educational. I think also in that space, you know, you have to sometimes still
00:26:29
Speaker
take the time or the extra little bit of energy to educate people on why something is now a more sustainable option than something else.
00:26:39
Speaker
I love educational. I think that's a word that nobody has phrased so far here on the show. I think the tricky part about education is nowadays in the era of TikTok, it needs to be entertaining because nobody, or at least you won't reach masses with some dry educational part. Any things you did there that were combining this educational and entertaining part that you want to share?
00:27:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think in our case, to actually show how easy something can be repaired with a simple screwdriver, for example, is a very simple way of doing that. And also always using examples. We always say that if you bought a bike and you couldn't repair it, it would be shocking. Nobody would accept that.
00:27:29
Speaker
But then on electronics, we all accepted that you can't even replace your battery. So, you know, to also maybe use kind of a bit examples with the blink of an eye, you know, with a bit of a funny comparison. Yeah, I think that's one way to go there. Yeah, I love that. That's a good example. Also with the bike, drawing these analogies to help us understand what's actually wrong in a market. Yeah. Next question, what is the future of marketing?
00:27:58
Speaker
Yeah, I would say it's a mix of actually having more circular business models. So not only considering, you know, that as a, as a marketing strategy, but actually having to market more circular business models, which are usually service, you know, need a bit more service design or actually need a bit more service thinking.
00:28:18
Speaker
And on the other hand, being held accountable much more by legislation, but actually also I think consumers who are getting more and more aware in general and asking more and more questions. So I think that that's really big elements in the future of marketing.
00:28:36
Speaker
Okay.
Verena's Motivation for a Sustainable Career
00:28:37
Speaker
Before we go to the last question, the personal one, I have another personal question for you, which is I talk to a lot of sustainability people and most of them, they have like a point where they decide, okay, I want to be part of a more sustainable world and I want to use my energies for that.
00:28:56
Speaker
Did you have such a moment in your career when you decided, okay, you want to do something good with the time that you have and not just bring a big cooperation the next big revenue? Yes, I had that, but I actually had that already during my studies because I studied business psychology for advertisement and brand psychology.
00:29:18
Speaker
And there are you. And you know, in those studies, then I've really, really understood, okay, why, why is this world in such a shitty place? To put it a bit black and white, right? And because then when you really understand how marketing and advertisement, what impact that has on decision making, and I think you even said it before, right? Like some people say, if it wouldn't be for marketing, the world could be quite different.
00:29:42
Speaker
And that was also a bit the insight and the mindset shift that I had during my studies. So for me, it was clear from the beginning that I would never want to work, you know, for a brand or corporate where I can't really stand behind the products they sell and how they sell it.
00:29:58
Speaker
I think for me, I was drawn to those big brands. I worked for McDonald's for two years, probably because capitalism got the better of me. And I was like, oh, this is a fascinating brand. And I still find it fascinating as a brand. I just wouldn't work for them anymore. And for me, it was being on vacation. I was in Australia for four months and then seeing the scenery.
00:30:22
Speaker
There is just landscape everywhere, endless roads, and then you have plastic bottles and cans on the side. And I really got frustrated and that's when I thought, okay, maybe it's time to contribute in a better way for a future. Yeah.
00:30:38
Speaker
I really like that. I really hope that more people see that a bit over time and actually also early in their career are not afraid to make such a choice to maybe work for a smaller, less unknown brand with a marketing background rather than going to the big brands where I think there's a lot there to catch up for most of them.
00:31:02
Speaker
That's what I would wish for, actually, also to your audience, right? I hope there's a lot more people who would take maybe what is still considered a bit the courageous choice, you know, to go to an unknown brand. Because of course, as a marketeer, that's not really what you signed up for.
00:31:18
Speaker
But I really think you can use your 40 hours or more per week in the best possible way. And I think we already see that change happening over industry. I've read that one third of all Gen Y and Gen Z actually decline job offers if the sustainability strategy is not a fit for their values.
00:31:39
Speaker
So we see that and I had a discussion with a client, a big company like old business, and they're doing a lot of sustainability projects at the moment because also they understand they need to change because otherwise they will have a problem on the HR side first and then probably later on on the consumer side. So I think it's going in the right direction. Question is only, is it fast enough? Yes.
00:32:03
Speaker
Best hope so.
Book Recommendation: 'Humankind' by Rutger Brechmann
00:32:04
Speaker
So final question, Verena. What book have you recently read that you would like to recommend here? It's the book.
00:32:12
Speaker
Rutger Brechmann, that's a Dutch historian, is called Humankind, or Humankind, Humankind. It's a bit of a wordplay, but it's about, yeah, he wants to actually show that, you know, all humans are at the core of it, kind and good. It's not a very light read. I have to give a heads up, but it's super interesting and I think paints a very optimistic picture. Yeah, I like that book a lot. Thanks for sharing it here.
00:32:40
Speaker
All right, Marina, thank you so much for coming on the show. I hope we get to speak soon again. And I hope that Fairphone will continue its success journey to change the industry. So thanks for sharing all your insights and yeah, look forward to seeing you soon. Thanks a lot. Thanks for the invitation.
00:32:59
Speaker
That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you have enjoyed this episode, please give me a rating and a review. This means the world to me, as I really pour my heart into the production and the interviews with those brilliant minds. If you are looking for an easy way to learn strategic marketing, check out the Simple and Sustainable Marketing Academy, where I share the basics of strategic and sustainable marketing in an online life setting.
00:33:29
Speaker
You can also sign up to my inspiring newsletter, where I deliver valuable thoughts to your inbox on how to achieve sustainable growth. I promise you will like it. And if you want to get in touch and find out more about me and my projects, just have a look at the links in the show notes or find me on Instagram and LinkedIn at Florian Schleicher. Thank you so much for listening and I look forward to sharing more with you in the next episode.