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77 – The 1992 Christmas Murders & Ernesto Miranda
41 Plays3 months ago
Sam drags you straight into the chilling darkness of Dayton, Ohio’s 1992 Christmas murders — a holiday horror that tore through the city with ruthless violence.
Jeff pulls you in the opposite direction, into the courtroom, tracing the messy, chaotic life of Ernesto Miranda, the man whose arrest and trial accidentally reshaped American law forever.
Visit us on Linktree for our full collection of links, Instagram, or email us at jeffandsamshow@gmail.com.
🎄 Sam’s Sources — 1992 Dayton Christmas Murders
- 1992 Dayton Christmas Murders (Wikipedia)
- “Christmas Killing Spree: The Devils of Dayton” — Dark Hearts with Stacy Lee
⚖️ Jeff’s Sources — Ernesto Miranda & Miranda Rights
- Ernesto Miranda (Wikipedia)
- Facts and Case Summary — Miranda v. Arizona
(U.S. Courts summary — publicly available resource) - Miranda v. Arizona — Oyez Case Page
- “Miranda Rights Are Misnamed” — Lou Schachter, True Crime Road Trip
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Transcript
00:00:00
Jeff Rogers
Hello, Sam. Hi, Jeffrey.
Introduction of the Show and Quirky Objects
00:00:25
Jeff Rogers
Welcome to the Jeff and Sam show. I'm Jeff. And I'm Sam. And she is in a daze. i don't know if I like it. I don't know. i don't.
00:00:36
Jeff Rogers
So I have this, um it's like an hourglass, But also a lava lamp. Oh, I like that part. See, you're gonna like it. I just didn't like when it was going on the side. Yeah, that's fair. But it's kind of magical. Like Ellen and Ashley have one and they send me pictures of it all the time. It like turns into a mountain range at the bottom.
00:00:57
Jeff Rogers
Once all the sand falls from the top to the water, it turns into this beautiful mountainscape. Is that a word? Yeah. Mountainscape. Okay. Okay. Anyway, hi. Welcome to the show. hi How are you? I think that this is a problem. I don't think that you should have done this in front of right Should I move it? Probably. okay let's But not right now. I need to see it finish. it's got you kind of Also, right before we recorded, ah like was scratching my knee and the fingernail on my middle finger bent up and backwards.
00:01:32
Jeff Rogers
I made the funniest sound. Sam looked at me like, i i I would have sworn that you had just been electrocuted or somebody stabbed you. I was like the grossest feeling. And then when you figured out what it was, you too got the heebie-jeebies. I don't like it. That was bad.
00:01:52
Jeff Rogers
What's going on, Samantha? Nothing. You know, just getting in the holiday spirit.
Holiday Stories and Tired Santa
00:01:57
Jeff Rogers
Went and picked out a Christmas tree with the nugs yesterday. Oh, fine. It was great. And we found this adorable little Christmas shop that apparently is there every year. And we just didn't know about. It's great. And they got to meet with the so with Santa at the end of his shift. So he was just like toast. Dog has time. And just you could tell he wanted nothing to do with it. But the two little ones, we walked over there. And um AJ was like, I'm not doing that.
00:02:27
Jeff Rogers
Typical, right? Uh-huh. But the two little ones were all excited. And then Gabby couldn't, for the life of her, think of what she wanted for Christmas. So she took so long. And i was like, hey, Santa's got to go. You got to just come. She goes, I just can't remember my Christmas list. And she's sitting there with like hand on chin contemplating. It was great.
00:02:47
Jeff Rogers
Did she figure it out? I don't know. I walked away. I can't pay attention that long. And then Santa was like, come on, kid. yeah Come on, kid. I got a smoke to get to. Really, though. Do you know, I told you, did I tell you about the time I had, oh, never mind, I'm not going tell that.
00:03:02
Jeff Rogers
Santa Claus. our Kids are listening. They don't need to know everything. Correct. There are kids listening. Terrifying idea, that. I got to meet Santa one time. It was, yeah. That's awesome. He came through to see me in the hospital.
00:03:15
Jeff Rogers
Oh, that's good. That's good. That's good. Him and Mrs. Claus. That's good. They were cute. Okay. He's doing well. Good. Yeah. Good. We're getting ready for the season. ye Okay. Mm-hmm.
00:03:28
Jeff Rogers
Mm-mm. Oh, Good. Good. Yeah. Cool. What's new with you? I just was going tell that story, and then I was like, oh, because there is an occasional 13-year-old that listens to this show, or a 10-year-old, I don't know. i don't know your life. I don't know how old you are.
00:03:41
Jeff Rogers
True. Not all stories need to be told. So what's going on with me?
Deep Tissue Massage: A 'High Noodle' Experience
00:03:45
Jeff Rogers
Yeah. Just dropping stuff. a am really, really sore.
00:03:53
Jeff Rogers
Tell me about it. Gabby, a friend of ours, recommended a massage therapist to me. Oh, oh, oh, This man was not playing around. ah He was not like the soft tissue Like the top, just the skin, everything is so sore. It's not even the muscles that are sore. It is the tissue.
00:04:16
Jeff Rogers
i don't like that. That's sore. And he did things with my, oh my God, there was one point where he like grabbed my arm. It wasn't like aggressive.
00:04:28
Jeff Rogers
It felt aggressive to me, but he's like, oh, so sorry. But like he grabbed my arm. He put it right here, mid-back, behind me, mid-back. So my arm is bent. Yeah, yours would have dislocated. Because then he pressed down on my shoulder blade.
00:04:43
Jeff Rogers
And it it looked like the move you see cops do to people when they're pushing them down to the ground and holding them. Yeah. it's kind of what I felt like it looked like. it And I came up off the table.
00:04:53
Jeff Rogers
I was like, but I couldn't come off the table because he had me pinned down. There was a man on top of you. Oh, it was so. and So this is it what is this called? Deep tissue. That was it And then my legs. Doesn't seem enjoyable.
00:05:07
Jeff Rogers
This seems like torture. I felt so unbelievably high when I walked out of that place. Like a noodle. A high noodle.
00:05:21
Jeff Rogers
A high noodle. She said, how do you feel when I walked out? And I was like, feel good. Words hurt. I feel good. Yeah, it was crazy. Sir, you're drooling.
00:05:34
Jeff Rogers
Yeah, that was crazy. No, not right now. Oh, I thought I wiped my mouth off. thought it was drooling. But it was good. i would do it again. In fact, my insurance paid for it. Oh, nice. And i have more of that to use. So I'm going to go Thursday.
00:05:53
Jeff Rogers
But I'm going to say don't kill me this time. Don't pin my shoulder down. that That was intense. But then the leg thing. When are we float pooling?
Sensory Deprivation Tank Concerns
00:06:01
Jeff Rogers
Or whatever it's called. Float tank? Float. Float tank? Float tank.
00:06:05
Jeff Rogers
We got to do it. We got to set up a date with Dan. I'm so hesitant to get you into a float tank. No, I'm going to do it. Sam, I don't know your brain can handle 60 minutes of... I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I don't think this thing's going anymore.
00:06:20
Jeff Rogers
I don't know if your brain can handle 60 minutes of floating in a tank. we're gonna I need to try it.
00:06:32
Jeff Rogers
Sam, I have to move. I have to, so my hourglass thing is too disrupting for Sam. She keeps just zoning the fuck out, looking at the hourglass. i So we're gonna hide this from you.
00:06:46
Jeff Rogers
like and child like a kid okay um yeah what was i gonna say oh two things ellen the thing she kept looking at was the thing that you send me a picture of all the time on your mantle that thing she didn't like it she was like i don't think i can get with this and then all of a sudden she's just watching it she zones out into it It's kind of beautiful, though. It Especially the end. It looks like a... have to show you pictures Alan sends me. Okay. Yeah.
00:07:15
Jeff Rogers
I mean, I'll see it at one point, just not when we're recording. Yeah. Yeah. we I don't know what the deal is with hourglasses. i love them. They're pretty, though, aren't they? Yeah. They're peaceful. This is like an ADD conversation. And focus. What are you drinking?
00:07:30
Jeff Rogers
I'm drinking a sparkling polar... ah
00:07:37
Jeff Rogers
uh blood orange there was a lot of mine is the orange vanilla um but yeah i don't think you can handle a flute tank and i'm so hesitant to make an appointment with you because i think it took me a couple of sessions to be able to handle like a 30 minute flute i'm doing it and dan and i said we would do it we're gonna do it don' know about you guys. don And then if we have to leave, you you and Blythe will find us at the bar down the block. I can see me and Blythe like in our zone floating in the float tank. Just having the best time. yeah And the craziest thing happens when you go into the float tank. It's like a um sensory deprivation sensory deprivation deprivation. And it's like you don't know if it's been two minutes or 22 minutes. There's no reference for time. So maybe 30, 60 minutes will go by real quick. You're alone with your thoughts.
00:08:32
Jeff Rogers
Yeah. I mean, my thoughts keep me entertained. I think, okay, yeah I really want to make an appointment with because I've been like really hesitant to. We're doing it. We'll send a text to them um after we record, after the show, and then we will set up a day. Okay. To go. because And then we also have to find out how many float tanks they have. Yeah.
00:08:50
Jeff Rogers
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Did we just make a ah plan on the microphone here? We did. Let's see if we follow through. Cheers, Quiz. Cheers, Quiz. Are we doing the show already? Oh, I don't know.
00:09:02
Jeff Rogers
Yeah, because we have another. Okay. Let's do it. oh Oh. Hi. Okay. That was All right.
00:09:18
Jeff Rogers
Can't pick a coin. Oh, that is lovely. That little touch of vanilla. It's like a creamsicle, but it's not too sweet. Did we get the same one?
00:09:29
Jeff Rogers
No.
00:09:30
Jeff Rogers
that a guitar? A guitar? Oh, Sierra Leone. It's a guitar.
00:09:36
Jeff Rogers
A very smiley man. And then a guitar. You can be the man. Excuse me, the very smiley man. That's not you then. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Excuse me, have you met me? I'm Sam. I'm part of the morale and wellness. You are just Miss Morale 2025, Samantha Smith. Like I said, I've been called worse. Yeah, right. Me too. All right, ready, set? Yep.
00:10:01
Jeff Rogers
Hi. Hi.
00:10:02
Jeff Rogers
It's the man. I don't know what's happening in the universe. i cook you Go for it. Okay. Well, then you have to recover this. Okay. Oh, is it bad? It's not great. That means it's bad. No. It's not as bad as i have done bad. This is like, oh.
00:10:20
Jeff Rogers
Okay. Do that one more time. It's like what?
00:10:25
Jeff Rogers
Meat work. um Christmas is a time for cheer and miracles. fala La la la la la. Happiness reigns and families make memories. La la la la.
00:10:36
Jeff Rogers
Sorry, going to go on this
00:10:43
Jeff Rogers
Okay, family-ness, happiness,
The Downtown Posse's Christmas Crime Spree
00:10:45
Jeff Rogers
cheers. Okay. The time inspires thoughts of snow and fire and hot cocoa, right? Like you just think about sitting around looking like pretty lights and that kind of stuff.
00:10:55
Jeff Rogers
snow yeah okay Snow. Yeah. 1992, Christmas time in Dayton, Ohio was anything but cheerful. Okay. Between December 24th and the 26th, six people were murdered and two were left gravely injured.
00:11:14
Jeff Rogers
A juvenile gang, self-dubbed the Downtown Posse, wreaked havoc that Christmas for no other reason than they were young and bored.
00:11:26
Jeff Rogers
The ringleader of the gang was 19-year-old Marvelous Matthew Keene. Other members included Keene's 16-year-old girlfriend, Laura Jean Taylor, 20-year-old Heather Nicole Matthews, and her 17-year-old boyfriend, Demarcus Marie Smith.
00:11:41
Jeff Rogers
On Christmas Eve, Keene, Taylor, and Matthews targeted a man suggested by Taylor. She claimed that 34-year-old Joseph Wilkerson would be willing to pay them for sex.
00:11:54
Jeff Rogers
She's just gross, right? Because she's 16. I don't know. Everything about that is bad. They met up with him at his home for a drink and the promise of an orgy.
00:12:05
Jeff Rogers
After their drink, they all went into Wilkerson's bedroom where, held at gunpoint, Wilkerson was tied down to his bed using electrical cords. Keen continued to hold him at gunpoint while the girls ransacked the house looking for any valuables.
00:12:18
Jeff Rogers
During their search, they found a.32 caliber Derringer. Keene took the gun and used it to shoot Wilkerson in his chest multiple times, going so far as to use blankets to muffle the sound of the shots.
00:12:31
Jeff Rogers
When Keene was done shooting him in the torso, Taylor also shot Wilkerson in the head. The group fled Wilkerson's home in one of his two vehicles. The day was not done yet.
00:12:43
Jeff Rogers
Yet. Yet. Me no. The trio met up with their fourth member, DeMarcus Smith, and then they went on the hunt for more victims. They found 18-year-old Danita Gillette making a phone call on a payphone on the street.
00:12:59
Jeff Rogers
Taylor, Smith, and Keene targeted her and held her at gunpoint, forcing her to remove her shoes and jacket. Smith and Keene then shot her point-blank repeatedly and took off on foot with her shoes in hand and Taylor wearing her jacket.
00:13:14
Jeff Rogers
Danita was a high school senior working part-time and the mother of a two-year-old girl. The group decided that they would return to Wilkerson's home, where his dead body was still laid out on that bed, and spend the night there.
00:13:29
Jeff Rogers
After being back at his home, they got antsy and decided to go find more victims. They picked a man named Jeffrey Wright, the ex-boyfriend of Matthews. They confronted him at right Wright's apartment and argued with him.
00:13:45
Jeff Rogers
Smith shot him multiple times in both legs, but Wright was able to escape. He fled and managed to survive the attack. The gang returned to their own apartment that night.
00:13:57
Jeff Rogers
Just slept it off like nothing happened. On Christmas Day, Keene returned to the home of Joseph Wilkerson to raid the house again for any remaining valuables and steal his second car.
00:14:09
Jeff Rogers
Shortly after taking the car, Taylor managed to convince her ex-boyfriend, a man named Richard Maddox, to meet up. The pair left Maddox's home in his car. Trailing them in one of the stolen vehicles was the trio Smith, Keene, and Matthews.
00:14:25
Jeff Rogers
Maddox spotted them following and tried to outrun them by speeding up. At this point, Taylor pulled out the stolen Derringer, put the barrel on Maddox's right temple, and then without hesitation or warning, she shot him through his head.
00:14:39
Jeff Rogers
Before the car crashed, Taylor jumped out of the moving vehicle and was picked up by her gang.
00:14:45
Jeff Rogers
The rest of that day was spent ambling about as if, again, nothing had happened. Then early on December 26th, the gang decided to rob a woman and steal her car.
00:14:56
Jeff Rogers
Because now, why not? They have three stolen vehicles. They happened upon a woman named Kathy Henderson, who they robbed at gunpoint and took her car. Luckily, they left her alive and alone. I'm good.
00:15:09
Jeff Rogers
They then chose to rob a grocery store. Taylor entered the store to scope out the interior. And at that time of day, the day after Christmas, Sarah Abraham, the daughter of the store owners, was working behind the cash register.
00:15:22
Jeff Rogers
And then there was another shop helper named Edward Thompson that was just walking down the aisles. Taylor left and reported back to her accomplices, and then Keene and Smith entered the store, waving their guns around.
00:15:33
Jeff Rogers
They forced Abrams to open the register. She handed them the entire contents, which was measly $40, and then was instantly shot in the face by Keene. At the same time, Smith shot at Thompson and the only other customer in the store, a man named Jones Pettis.
00:15:51
Jeff Rogers
Pettis was shot in the abdomen, and Thompson managed to dive behind a shelf to avoid being struck. Abraham, mother of three, was rushed to the hospital but died of her injuries.
00:16:02
Jeff Rogers
Pettis was also rushed to the hospital and managed to survive his wounds. After the grocery store store shooting, the gang members reportedly became concerned that the police were on to them.
00:16:12
Jeff Rogers
Apparently, they had not been subtle about their activities and had actually shared the stories with some of their friends. 16-year-old Wendy Cattrill and 18-year-old Marvin Washington were targeted by Taylor and Smith to keep them from talking to the authorities.
00:16:26
Jeff Rogers
The gang lured Washington and Cattrill into getting into the car with them and going for a drive. They were taken onto a gravel pit in Dayton and forced at gunpoint out of the car.
00:16:37
Jeff Rogers
They both begged for their lives and swore that they hadn't and would not go to the police. During their pleading, Keene shot Cattrill and Smith shot Washington. Their bodies were not found for five days.
00:16:50
Jeff Rogers
Cattrill was three months pregnant at the time for her murder.
Legal Proceedings and Sentences
00:16:53
Jeff Rogers
The gang then drove Henderson's stolen car back to a friend's apartment where they had left one of Wilkerson's stolen cars. um A police car followed quietly behind them, kind of reporting that they were behaving suspiciously.
00:17:09
Jeff Rogers
um and when they noticed the police officer behind them, Smith jumped out of the moving vehicle and tried to flee. What's up with these people just fucking jumping out of moving car? Like, this this is weird, right? Desperate.
00:17:21
Jeff Rogers
And all four were apprehended. Keenan Matthews were arraigned and faced charges of aggravated murder and robbery. A cash bond of $5 million dollars was issued for each of them. damn Prosecutor Matthias Heck intended to seek the death penalty for both of them, the two adults.
00:17:38
Jeff Rogers
Smith and Taylor were arraigned in juvenile court. Heck requested to try both of them as adults with potential sentences of 25 years to life. In May of 1993, the request ah was approved to try them as adults, but because they were still juveniles, not eligible for capital punishment.
00:17:57
Jeff Rogers
Many friends and family members of the victim spoke out on their behalf, including Danita's sister and parents, everyone. it was very terrible.
00:18:08
Jeff Rogers
Heartfelt. Marvelous Keen was charged with the murders of five out of the six victims, Richard Maddox not included. he claimed ah He claimed a trial before three judge a three-judge court and waived his right to trial by jury in September of 1993.
00:18:27
Jeff Rogers
Prior to this arrest, Keene had no criminal record. None of them did. On October 12, 1993, the judge panel found Marvelous Keene guilty on all 20 counts included aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, attempted aggravated murder, kidnapping, burglary, and attempted burglary.
00:18:47
Jeff Rogers
The sentencing trial occurred over three days at the end of October, during which the judges opted to impose the death penalty for each count of murder, and Keene tearfully apologized while asking for leniency because his brother had died during a shooting in 1991.
00:19:03
Jeff Rogers
He claimed a troubled emotional state due to his brother's death and a fallout with his father. The court proceeded with the capital punishment. The official sentence was handed down on December 10, 1993. In addition to his five death sentences, he was also sentenced to consecutive jail terms up to 293 years for the lesser charges against him. And there were like questions about that. What's the point if he's already got one death penalty sentence? like What's the point in all these? But it was the courts came back with they need to understand the severity of this. So, yes, he will be charged and sentenced for each of these crimes, although clearly only one sentence has to be upheld. Right?
00:19:45
Jeff Rogers
Heather Nicole Matthews, the other adult perpetrator, was granted a plea bargain. She received two consecutive life sentences for the two counts of aggravated murder and additional jail terms for lesser charges.
00:19:58
Jeff Rogers
Her final term amounted to 194 years. Wow. She would be considered for parole after a minimum of 53 years served on each of the two life sentences. Wow.
00:20:10
Jeff Rogers
Although they were tried as adults, Laura Jean Taylor and Demarcus Maurice Smith were ineligible for a death penalty because they were minors. They were each sentenced to life in prison with parole only after 100 years' time.
00:20:22
Jeff Rogers
God. That's wild. After the sentencing, Matthews expressed regret that she had not married her boyfriend, Demarcus. She also explained that she was glad the legal process was over, but said that life in prison was no life at all, and found that she had no will to live and wanted to kill herself.
00:20:42
Jeff Rogers
Taylor appealed her murder convictions and sentence. In November 1995, the appeal was rejected. Keene spent over a decade appealing his death sentence. In 1998, his appeal to the Supreme Court was dismissed.
00:20:55
Jeff Rogers
In 2008, He filed an appeal for the sixth court Sixth Circuit Court citing racial discrimination and violation of due process, the same claims that he had cited in the 1998 Supreme Court appeal. It, too, was rejected.
00:21:10
Jeff Rogers
Smith and Matthews never filed appeals. The death warrant for Keene was signed by majority decision 6-1 by the Supreme Court more than 16 years after his crimes. The date of his execution was finally set after exhausting his appeal options.
00:21:24
Jeff Rogers
Without having requested one, a clemency hearing was held for Keene. A seven-member panel was convened to hear the case for removing the death penalty. Rhonda Gillette, sister of 18-year-old Danita, spoke on behalf of 15 family members to the panel.
00:21:40
Jeff Rogers
She explained that she had written to Keene repeatedly to ask him why he had killed her sister, and she never received a single response. The opposition to clemency urged the board to consider the gravity of his crimes and that he had never expressed any remorse for his actions or the suffering he had caused outside of his own personal interests.
00:21:57
Jeff Rogers
The parole parole board unanimously voted 7-0 to reject clemency. Upon being moved to Death Watch the day before his execution, he made no final requests to see his family.
00:22:10
Jeff Rogers
His final meal was...
00:22:12
Jeff Rogers
A porterhouse steak with A1 sauce, a pound of jumbo shrimp with cocktail sauce, french fries, onion rings, a tube of Pillsbury dinner rolls with butter, two plums, a mango, one pound of seedless white grapes, German chocolate cake, two bottles of Pepsi, and two bottles of A&W cream soda.
00:22:35
Jeff Rogers
He had no final words before his death. On July 21st, 2009, 36-year-old Marvelous Keene was put to death by lethal injection. Smith, Matthews, and Taylor all remain incarcerated at separate facilities.
00:22:49
Jeff Rogers
Wow. That's crazy. That's horrible. Because they were bored. Yeah. That's horrible. Over Christmas. On Christmas, right? On Christmas.
The Backstory of Miranda Rights
00:22:58
Jeff Rogers
24, 25, 26. Because they were bored.
00:23:01
Jeff Rogers
Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. And none of them had criminal records before. Like, how... like What the fuck are doing? Holy shit, right? There was one that was a mom, one that was pregnant.
00:23:14
Jeff Rogers
Okay. Two were moms. Right. and then Sarah Abraham had three kids. Her oldest was 11 at the time for death. That's the thing I think about. They got kids. Yeah.
00:23:27
Jeff Rogers
What the fuck? They have kids. They just took mom away. on Christmas. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Anyway, Merry merry Christmas. Right turn.
00:23:38
Jeff Rogers
Should we do a right turn or a left turn? Let's go left. Let's turn. let's turn not like a left turn. Okay. Mine is different an interesting one.
00:23:50
Jeff Rogers
Okay. It changed the law of the land. I don't think I'm going to put in the title of the show. I don't think I'm going to put what this is. know how we put usually the story we're going to tell. I'm going to just put the bad person's name.
00:24:06
Jeff Rogers
Right? That way I don't give it away in the title. yeah So Saturday, March 2nd, 19th. And I only say that because you know the story. This is one of the only times Sam has known my story because we've told it before. I've told this story before, but Sam brought all the lightning with her.
00:24:23
Jeff Rogers
on her way here that the whole thing was deleted. It really was. So I'm going to retell this story to Sam. Please tell. And I'm going to tell it to you.
00:24:34
Jeff Rogers
ah Saturday, March 1963. 18-year-old woman named Patricia Year... eighteen year old woman named patricia ye finished her job selling refreshments at downtown Paramount Theater.
00:24:47
Jeff Rogers
She walked with a coworker two blocks to 7th Street and got on board a northbound bus. At 7th and Marlette Street, she got off and walked three blocks toward her home that she shared with her mom, sister, and her sister's husband.
00:25:01
Jeff Rogers
The area was undergoing a lot of development. and The sidewalks were dark and dess desert deserted because they hadn't put the street lights up yet. When a car pulled up behind her, she continued to walk, not suspecting any trouble.
00:25:15
Jeff Rogers
The driver opened his door. got He stepped out of the car on foot. Now he was following her. He quickened his pace, and then he grabbed her around the waist.
00:25:26
Jeff Rogers
And he said, quote, if you don't scream, he said, i won't hurt you. He dragged Patricia to his car, shoved her in the back seat using rope. He bound her ankles, tied her wrists together behind her back.
00:25:40
Jeff Rogers
He drove 20 minutes east into ah the desert land and it was at the foot of what is now called the Pizzea Peak. Just shot that one out of my mouth. I have no idea if that's right. I'm going with Pizzea. I think it fits. It's near the Arizona Biltmore Hotel. Sounds about right. Definitely Pizreya. Right? Definitely Pizreya.
00:26:03
Jeff Rogers
It's probably not. the The blank stare at it. Yeah, it's probably whatever. The man untied the woman, removed her clothes, and then he sexually assaulted her.
00:26:14
Jeff Rogers
Afterward, he drove her back to the neighborhood and he released her like an animal. And then he said, pray for me. ah Oh, in unison.
00:26:26
Jeff Rogers
h When Patricia got to her mom's house where she lived, she told her sister what had happened. Immediately, they called the police. And ah the police took the report. They arranged for a medical examination. Detectives struggled to find the suspect. The following weekend, however, everything changed.
00:26:45
Jeff Rogers
The victim's brother-in-law, who now met her at the bus stop each night, noticed. Which is so sweet. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome for him. mean, and the cops got on it immediately.
00:26:57
Jeff Rogers
he was, what this is like 1963. Yeah, who knew they had like sane exams back in the day? don't what that looked like, but... A vagina. Right. I mean, the SANE exam. You know mean? Like, how well that was 63. Like, yeah, right? Yeah. Because evidence... The victim's brother-in-law, who now met her at the bus stop each night, noticed a car that matched the one that she had described. He jotted down the license plate and he informed the police.
00:27:24
Jeff Rogers
They tracked the license plate to Twyla Hoffman, who lived with a man with a record of sexual assault, Ernesto Miranda. In a lineup, Miranda looked similar to the rapist, but the victim couldn't be sure.
00:27:39
Jeff Rogers
Ernesto Miranda was born may March 9, 1941 in Arizona. He spent a lot of his youth in trouble. It didn't help him that his mom died when Ernesto was six, and Ernesto didn't get along with his father.
00:27:52
Jeff Rogers
He was convicted of burglary in the eighth grade, sent to reform school, released, got out, got in trouble again, moved to Los Angeles, where he continued to get in trouble, and This included ah an arrest for armed robbery and sexual assault.
00:28:06
Jeff Rogers
He was extradited back to Arizona. He then joined the Army. While in the Army, he was stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky. There he was arrested for voyeurism.
00:28:18
Jeff Rogers
He's just bad all the way around. You know what i mean? Yep. Speedy. He was dishonorably discharged. He stole cars. He was arrested in Tennessee and Texas. He then started a relationship with Twyla Hoffman.
00:28:33
Jeff Rogers
Twyla had two kids from a different marriage. no While with her, this he sort of stayed out of trouble. They ended up having a child together, but it was around 1962 when he started hunting another victim.
00:28:47
Jeff Rogers
And it was on March 2nd, 1963, when he s essayed patricia When police saw Miranda's car, it was just like Patricia had described. Miranda agreed to come into the station with the police.
00:29:00
Jeff Rogers
Detectives spent two hours with Miranda in an interrogation room. No record was kept. Finally, miranda Miranda signed a confession admitting to kidnapping and rape.
00:29:11
Jeff Rogers
He confessed to the sexual assault of Patricia. They searched his car where they found rope. They reviewed medical records that showed semen inside of her.
00:29:22
Jeff Rogers
Mind you, the case wasn't well known at this time, right? This was not a national case. local Just a very local case. yeah And it was basically an open and shut case.
00:29:33
Jeff Rogers
Or was it? At the trial, the defense questioned whether the accused, Mr. Miranda, had been read his rights. And the detective pointed out the guilty statement Miranda had signed.
00:29:46
Jeff Rogers
At the top of the statement was a typed paragraph stating that the confession was made voluntarily, without threats or promises of immunity, and, quote, with full knowledge of my legal rights, understanding any statement I make may be used against me.
00:30:00
Jeff Rogers
And then the prosecutor pointed out that nowhere in the notes did it say Miranda had actually been read his rights. The detective stated that he normally didn't read a person their rights.
00:30:11
Jeff Rogers
The prosecutor suggested that the confession shouldn't be in evidence. This was overruled by the judge, and Ernesto Miranda was found guilty and sentenced to 20 to 30 years for the sexual assault of Patricia Ware.
00:30:26
Jeff Rogers
Miranda filed an appeal after the conviction, but the Arizona Supreme Court denied the appeal. Then the Phoenix branch of the American Civil... Civil... Oh boy, that's a hard one. Words are hard. more The American Civil Liberties Union, or the ACLU... Ba-dum-boom.
00:30:47
Jeff Rogers
A-C-L-U. They're the ones, I mean. i mean, they're magical. Fucking, what they do is so amazing. And you might not always agree with them, period. But they they do the right thing. They do. They do the right thing. literally do the job to make sure that all Americans have their liberties upheld.
00:31:07
Jeff Rogers
Period. um Are you a guardian of liberty? I am. I am. Now the ACLU is so much easier to say. Say one more time. The ACLU. No, went the whole thing. American Civil Liberties Union. It's the they get to. It's hard thing for me. American Civil Liberties Union. I don't like words.
00:31:25
Jeff Rogers
Just that one, apparently. Now the ACLU knew the U.S. Supreme Court had recently ruled in favor of several cases dealing with the denial of the constitutional rights during the process of arrest and questioning.
00:31:36
Jeff Rogers
The ACLU was looking for a case that they could use to pass the law or pass a law that ensured suspects knew that they had the right to an attorney. Ernesto Miranda's case was perfect for that.
00:31:50
Jeff Rogers
After the ACLU filed the appeal, the Supreme Court used the Miranda case along with three other cases, Vignera v. New York, Stewart v. California, and Westover v. the United States.
00:32:02
Jeff Rogers
In these cases, the suspect had not been read their rights before talking to the police. Just about a year later, the Supreme Court said, case reversed.
00:32:13
Jeff Rogers
From the testimony of the officers and by the admission of the respondents, it's clear that Miranda was not in any way apprised of his right to consult with an attorney and to have one present during the interrogation.
00:32:25
Jeff Rogers
Nor was his right not to be compelled to incriminate himself effectively protected in any other manner. Without these warnings, the statements were inadmissible.
00:32:36
Jeff Rogers
God, that's crazy, right?
00:32:45
Jeff Rogers
does not approach the knowing and intelligent waiver required to relinquish constitutional rights yeah that's crazy right The Supreme Court stated, prior to any questioning, the person must be warned that he has a right to remain silent, that any statement he does may that any statement he makes may be used against him in evidence, that he has a right to the presence of an attorney, either retained or appointed.
00:33:13
Jeff Rogers
The defendant may waive effectuation of these rights, provided that the waiver is made voluntarily, knowing and intelligently. If, however, he indicates in any manner at any stage of the process that he wishes to consult with the attorney before speaking, there can be no questioning of that.
00:33:31
Jeff Rogers
Right. yeah Likewise, if the individual is alone and indicates in any manner that he does not wish to be interrogated, the police may not question him.
00:33:42
Jeff Rogers
The mere fact that he may have answered some questions or volunteered some statements of his own ideas does not deprive him of the right to refrain from answering any further inquiries until he has consulted with an attorney and thereafter consents to be questioned.
00:33:59
Jeff Rogers
From that point on, all law enforcement agencies in the U.S. were required to read any anyone that they were going to hold an interview their Miranda warning or their Miranda rights.
00:34:11
Jeff Rogers
This specifically applies when a person is placed under arrest and when they are being detained for questioning, meaning they aren't free to leave. So if you're being held, Sam, for all those crimes you commit, gotta catch me first.
00:34:26
Jeff Rogers
And they're not going to let you leave. That's when you have the right to all this, I'll literally say that in the next sentence. I didn't even read that. that was The next sentence is, if you, Sam, are being interviewed by the police, but you are free to leave at any time, they don't need to give you a Miranda warning. Yeah, so if they're just like, oh we're just bringing you in to chat, and I can be like, don't want to chat. However, something sneaky here. What I learned in the Amanda Knox story and this is something golden i learned from her is that when they bring you in to just chat it's also sometimes that chat is used as an interrogation and you're unaware of that
Importance of Miranda Rights
00:35:03
Jeff Rogers
sometimes they question witnesses who they really want to interrogate but they question them free to leave so they don't have to mirandize them but they think they're a witness they think they're you know yeah that's what happened to her in her case where was i
00:35:18
Jeff Rogers
Talking about me me getting arrested. Oh, yeah. So when you are arrested or detained for questioning, you will be read the following. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say are can and be used against you in the court of law. You have a right to an attorney. if you cannot unafford If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided to you.
00:35:39
Jeff Rogers
However, merely stating these rights isn't enough. The person detaining you has to ensure that you understand these rights. So they will ask, do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?
00:35:54
Jeff Rogers
What if you say no? What if you're just like, no, I don't, I don't understand. You know what? That's a great question. I wonder what they have to do. Right? Because if i if they read me those and I just flat out say, no, I don't understand, what's their next step?
00:36:10
Jeff Rogers
Like psychological testing, maybe? i don't know. We should find that out. Get back to me with that answer, sir. I'll get back to you with that. Thanks. But what happened to Ernesto Miranda's right?
00:36:24
Jeff Rogers
this is This is like the most so... Ernesto went to prison, but now the case was dismissed, right? It's like a year later, right?
00:36:34
Jeff Rogers
A year later, yeah
00:36:36
Jeff Rogers
Okay, so this is like the most American ending to this story that you could ever ask for. So he was charged with the sexual assault for Patricia Weir. Turns out he was simply retried and convicted again.
00:36:50
Jeff Rogers
He was sentenced to 20 or 30 years again, and he was released in 1972 on parole, is crazy to me and started selling Miranda Warning cards for $1.50 a piece.
00:37:05
Jeff Rogers
So he was like profiting off of this, the most American way possible. In January of 76, Ernesto was at a bar called La Amapola Bar in Phoenix, playing poker when another patron accused him of cheating.
00:37:20
Jeff Rogers
ah fight ensued and Ernesto Miranda was stabbed multiple times and he died from his wounds. So in the opinion of Lou Schechter from Medium Magazine, you they're just doing the best work.
00:37:36
Jeff Rogers
Some might say it's medium, but not you. He said, it's way above medium. He said, quote... They should not immortalize a convicted rapist. Instead, they should be named for the man who convinced the Supreme Court that a suspect's right to remain silent and obtain legal representation are embedded in the Constitution.
00:37:59
Jeff Rogers
That man, though helped by others, was John Flynn. Flynn himself probably merits a biopic. He was born in Tortilla Flat, Arizona.
00:38:10
Jeff Rogers
His father was a union organizer who served prison time for rustling cattle. A Marine Corps veteran who fought at Irojima during World War II, Flynn was a serial adulterer who married five times.
00:38:25
Jeff Rogers
He was twice arrested for drunk driving, though he beat both cases, and admitted admitted to smoking pot and stealing a painting from a hotel. he made a lot of money, and he spent a lot more, often during 24-hour gambling binges in Vegas.
00:38:42
Jeff Rogers
With white hair, a persistent smile, and bright eyes, Flynn looked like an actor playing a courtroom litigator. He worked on cases involving product liability, divorce, fraud, probate, personal injuries, and over 100 murders.
00:38:59
Jeff Rogers
Arguing a point in a courtroom, Flynn with he spoke with such a humility and sincerity that it seemed extemporaneous but masked a great deal of strategic forethought.
00:39:10
Jeff Rogers
He asked questions no one else considered, often breaking cases open. I kind of picture him as like Richard Gere. Yeah. Right? Right? Like an the young, hot Richard Gere. Yeah. With like white hair and like, you know. That's good. like that. But like good in a suit, you know, charming. Smoked too many cigarettes. Yeah.
00:39:32
Jeff Rogers
Just a little ah like edgy. I'm here for it. He asked questions no one else considered, often breaking cases open. one proceeding and One proceeding ended in mistrial when a juror told the judge that she had fallen in love with Flynn during the case. Richard Gere, damn it. Absolutely. Flynn became the most celebrated trial lawyer in Arizona.
00:39:56
Jeff Rogers
Flynn and his partners put their lucrative paid work aside to help the ACLU with the Miranda case. Before the Supreme Court, Flynn framed a discussion by pointing out that most Americans, unless they were rich or educated, did not possess enough legal knowledge or confidence to protect themselves during interactions with the police.
00:40:17
Jeff Rogers
I fucking love that. That's the ACLU. It is. And I mean, and like you said, you know, like... You don't like that Miranda got off on this charge, right? But he deserved a fair and and equitable trial, you know? Absolutely. And the reason why he went back and got sentenced again was because he had already told Twyla, his girlfriend, what he had done. So in the second trial, they just used her. yeah So it was kind of like a it was kind of a sure thing anyway. yeah But they just had to do it all over the book this time.
00:40:55
Jeff Rogers
The new book. The new book? Yes. The Flynn book. Reconstructing Miranda's arrest and interrogation, Flynn persuaded a bare majority of the court that suspects needed to be advised of their right to remain silent and their right to an attorney before questioning began.
00:41:10
Jeff Rogers
In his back and forth with just the justices, Flynn essentially laid out the language that was that found its way to the Miranda warning cards and that the police subsequently used. So Lou's view from Medium, police warnings to suspects about their right to an attorney and their right to remain silent, ought to be called not Miranda warnings, but the Flynn warnings.
00:41:32
Jeff Rogers
And we kind of went down a rabbit hole the first time with this about, like, you know, you could say, like, have you been have they been Mirandized? But, like, you can't really say, have they been Flindized?
00:41:43
Jeff Rogers
It doesn't work. unless Unless that was the name of it from the very beginning, then Mirandized wouldn't work. Right. Yeah. And i'll I tried to find a more about Patricia Weir when I did this story months ago, but I couldn't. Yeah.
00:41:59
Jeff Rogers
And I think some people just don't want to be found, right? That's totally understandable. Yeah. I mean, because, again, ah this if she watches crime television or anything like that, now she has to hear this guy's name every time. oh yeah. Fair point.
00:42:14
Jeff Rogers
So, yeah, Flynn, Richard Gere, he should have gotten the credit for that. Oh, for sure. I'm telling you, it's him. I want to look him up now. I didn't even look him up to begin with. and No, we shouldn't. Maybe we shouldn't. It's going to just totally implode our vision of him.
00:42:29
Jeff Rogers
And him is like... He played hard, right? yeah Made a lot of money, spent a lot more, smoked the cigarettes, did the army thing, Marine Corps. But then turned around and his chain lucrative... Changed the country. Yeah, his lucrative law practice is like, let's help the American Civil Liberties Union. because unless you are rich and educated, you do not have enough legal understanding to know what is right correct for you.
00:42:59
Jeff Rogers
Correct. Or you watch enough crime TV. It's like us. We would know. Oh, absolutely. I'd be, one, a great serial killer. Two, a great serial killer profiler. um And three, the best cop out there.
00:43:13
Jeff Rogers
I could probably also be like New York's chief of police. I watch more British crime shit than I do American. So, you know, hey, London. hey Okay, I think that's good enough for
Podcast Promotion and Listener Engagement
00:43:27
Jeff Rogers
today. We didn't introduce ourselves. I said welcome to the Jeff and Sam show. Okay, but you have to find us and listen to us. You're already listening to us, but you can always find us on Apple, Amazon, Spotify, and iHeartRadio.
00:43:38
Jeff Rogers
You can reach out to us on Instagram or on Gmail. We also have a website. And check the show notes because all of this will be listed in there. Damn right. Listen to us, rate us, review us, share us with your family. Give us five stars. You know, it really helps when you rate us. It does. And do you know why it helps when you rate us?
00:43:55
Jeff Rogers
No. Because it – I don't know either. i was going to give you some long bullshit thing. There's something about an algorithm. i would have believed it. For every time somebody likes the show, follows the show, and rates the show – We kind of get moved up in the algorithm.
00:44:11
Jeff Rogers
And so somebody just sent me a text saying that our show was recommended to them. oh Based on the algorithm. Based on somebody.
00:44:19
Jeff Rogers
Four stars. We'll take two. You know, we'll take it won't like it. Don't like it. Don't have to like it, but we'll take it Is that it? Oh, today is the 7th of December when we're recording this. It is. Which is Pearl Harbor. David will live in infamy. Yeah.
00:44:36
Jeff Rogers
Do you know when I lived in Hawaii, I got to meet one of the men that was there on December 7th, 1941. Got to meet him, shake his hand.
00:44:47
Jeff Rogers
Awesome experience.
Humorous Noodle Connection
00:44:48
Jeff Rogers
Well, this also comes out...
00:44:53
Jeff Rogers
You felt like a high noodle. So this comes out on December 11th. And guess what day December 11th is? What is it? National Noodle Ring Day. Shut the fuck up. tribute to podcast.
00:45:10
Jeff Rogers
I felt like a high noodle. So this is coming out on National Noodle Day. That's great. Who knew? That's full circle. It's day for everything. That is full circle. And you know what?
00:45:23
Jeff Rogers
That is why. We are only here for a good time. Not a long time. Amen. Goodbye.
00:45:37
Jeff Rogers
smith