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Jeffery Kendall – Jumping from skatepark to philosophy, the meandering path to leadership, and giving people hope for the future | Episode 22
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Welcome to episode twenty-two of Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief! Joining me today is Jeffery Kendall, Chairman and CEO of Nymbus. On this show, I’m unpacking the stories, decisions, and influences that make people successful leaders.
As is often the case, when you’re young, it’s difficult to see your own potential, but your friends and mentors can see it clearly. Such was the case for Jeffery Kendall as a kid growing up on skateboard in rural Idaho. He had a seemingly innate sense of vision that helps leaders rally others to their cause.
My name is Nathan Baumeister; I am the Co-founder and CEO of ZSuite Tech and the host of this podcast.
In what some might see as an existential 360°, Jeffery discovered a deep love for philosophy and enrolled at one of the most conservative colleges in the US. After that he joined the workforce as a graphic designer, later working as a chief of staff and as a sales leader – all of which prepared him to take the helm as CEO of nascent core banking startup known as Nymbus.
Along the way Jeffery’s background in philosophy gave him helpful frameworks to handle the opposing forces of innovative chaos and scalable systems that both need to operate if a young fintech company is going to thrive.
As in skateboarding, the key to running a successful company is a willingness to take risks and a relentless focus on the techniques that allow you to avoid catastrophic failure.
Jeffery’s approach to leadership is all about creating opportunities for the people around him to take on new risks and hone their techniques. It’s not about flashy tricks or trying to bring about world peace, for now he’s building a company that is doing its part to make the world a better place—one bank or credit union balance sheet at a time.
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Jeffery’s book recommendations:
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Transcript
Nathan's Journey to CEO
00:00:00
Speaker
my current investors saying, hey, you did such a good job over there. ah you know We'd like you to go grow this other you know asset that we have and yeah know scale it. That's how I took the job. and and I always tell people, I said told my wife, I said, hey, honey, it's the best day of my life. Good news is, got my first CEO gig, big bucket list item I've wanted for years.
00:00:19
Speaker
Bad news is, it's running a company that nobody would ever want to run, nobody and nobody wants to buy what wo we make.
Podcast Introduction: Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief
00:00:28
Speaker
Hi, my name is Nathan Baumeister, and you're listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief, a podcast where executives from the world of finance and technology share the story of how they got where they are and the decisions that made them who they are.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm looking for hidden moments of truth and sacrifice, wisdom and folly, and what it's like to navigate the treacherous waters at the helm of a growing company. I want to do all that so that together we can learn from their journey and use that insight personally and professionally.
Meet Jeffrey Kendall: From Punk Skater to CEO
00:00:59
Speaker
In episode 22, my guest is Jeffrey Kendall, CEO of Nimbus, a new kind of core banking software provider that is empowering banks and credit unions to grow and improve their market positioning.
00:01:11
Speaker
As a skater punk in rural Idaho, Jeffrey didn't look like an obvious candidate for leadership, especially in a domain as straight-laced as banking. But the people who knew Jeffrey the best also saw his incredible potential and encouraged him to become something more than a rebel without a cause.
00:01:29
Speaker
It was his encounter with political philosophy that set Jeffrey on a path to academia and then into the business world as a graphic designer. His future as a CEO was seemingly nowhere in sight.
00:01:41
Speaker
Thankfully, Jeffrey had extensive training in the discipline of dialectics and discussion, where seemingly opposite ideas are tested and argued to arrive at a new and useful idea. Punk rock philosopher, artist CEO?
00:01:55
Speaker
Maybe these are more complimentary than they first appear. Jeffrey understood how to take a position and defend it, as well as how to shift his position based on new information.
Jeffrey's Leadership Philosophy
00:02:05
Speaker
It was this skill, along with his curiosity and teachability, that opened doors for Jeffrey to move up the corporate ladder, eventually becoming the CEO of a startup that was facing very steep, unfavorable odds, or a massive opportunity, depending on how you frame it.
00:02:21
Speaker
In this episode of Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief, Jeffrey Kendall takes us through his journey from the hills of Idaho to the halls of financial technology. So dust off your Chuck Taylors and your mental skateboard.
00:02:33
Speaker
You're in for a ride that is equal parts creativity and business strategy.
00:02:43
Speaker
Well, Jeffrey, I can't tell you how grateful I am that you are joining us for Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief. Nathan, I'm excited to be here. i'm a big fan of the podcast and listen to many, many episodes. So feel very honored. Thanks.
00:02:57
Speaker
Well, i love I love hearing it. You know, over the last several years, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you. um But even before that, I've been watching the journey. I think that we could all agree that in our space from a bank tech perspective and from a startup perspective, there's nothing more ambitious than what you are doing.
00:03:17
Speaker
You know, i I appreciate that and I agree. And the amount of times when I tell people that, you know, I'm a CEO of a core processing, you know, company or that we're building out a core, they just look at me like, are you insane?
00:03:30
Speaker
And yeah, there's so there's an element of truth that you have to be a little a little of wired differently to take this journey on. Yeah, absolutely. And i'm i'm I'm excited to be able to learn from the stories of what has helped you to become the leader that you are, ah that you did look at this challenge and you said, not only yes, but yes, and I'm the one that needs to do it. i just It's fascinating. So thank you so much for joining.
00:03:58
Speaker
No problem. Thanks.
Jeffrey's Early Leadership Experience
00:04:00
Speaker
So as we start ah your leadership journey, One of the things that's always struck me is how much of our growing up time actually influences who we are as adults and as leaders.
00:04:14
Speaker
So i would just love to hear a little bit of you know your time growing up and and now that you have the introspection of years past, what are some of those things that has helped you to become who you are?
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah, no it's it's's a great question. i appreciate that. i ah I grew up in rural Idaho. I'm kind of in a farm sort of based community. And a lot of sort of things that I observed growing up were We're really just around how you know people you know young adults and and kids sort of naturally organize or they naturally develop leaders within their friend groups. And you know sometimes we don't really understand who we are as a leader or where we want to go We sort of only understand it in hindsight when we look back as to where we came. and
00:05:02
Speaker
I would say one of the things just kind of growing up is I was always that kid in the friend group that was you know it wasn't the most popular, it wasn't you know the funniest or whatever, but I was always the one that had the plan. I was like, all right, we're going to get dinner we're going to go have hamburgers over here, we're going to go you know, hang out with our friends over here and drive that. And I think there's, you can start to see sort of people developing that need to lead or that desire or ability sort of early formative years. And that's, you know, I think about that as sort of the the sign of what was about to happen later in life.
00:05:34
Speaker
did you Did you find yourself stepping into it or did you find people looking to you? I remember actually the first time I was actually in high school and out of the blue, counselor came to me and said, hey, you were selected to be part of this leadership program and as a, I think I was a junior in high school.
00:05:53
Speaker
And it was called, the you know, friends helpers or something like that. And the whole idea was that your peers actually voted, you know, and said like, oh, this person is a leader and, you know,
00:06:05
Speaker
sort of a trusted leader. But it was wild because i didn't know it was happening or anything. And so somebody came up and said like, oh, you've been nominated as a leader. That was the first time I had really sort of put that label on myself of a leader and then that sort of thing. And that was pretty formative as well um you know in terms of that experience and being sort of called out as it and sort of recognized for it. and you know, point it out. I think that made me want to lean into it and sort of gave me the, oh, that's a thing.
00:06:34
Speaker
Leadership is, you know, something you have as a developed quality. That's interesting to me. So very early on was was sort of in that. Yeah, that is really cool. And what ah what a nice compliment from your peers to be able to nominate you for that.
00:06:49
Speaker
One of the things that you just called out, which I think is really interesting, is the power of labels or the power of being recognized as a thing.
Labels and Identity in Leadership
00:07:00
Speaker
And I'm curious, kind of you saw that early on with that particular story. ah wonder if you've seen that theme kind of happen throughout ah as within your own career, but as well as those people that have helped, help that you've been able to help.
00:07:16
Speaker
Yeah, you know there's probably a positive side of that and a less positive side. um i would say you know one of the things I've always been sort of interested and curious about is the idea of identity of what we do for work and what we do as, yeah know obviously leadership expand yeah goes beyond just what we do in our business lives and careers.
00:07:40
Speaker
But that's sort of where we frame it up and think about it maybe the most. But I always think about this concept of our identity is what we do. right I'm a CEO. Okay.
00:07:51
Speaker
No, I'm actually a human that likes to ride motorcycles and you know listen to cool music and things like that. I actually don't think of myself as like, that's what I am. But when we put these titles on, that does lead to this sort of like, okay, now you're a thing.
00:08:05
Speaker
Now let's Let's worry less about your humanity, your family, your your your values, those sorts of things. Now it's just the thing you do. That can really challenge people, I think, in terms of leadership and understanding who they are, what their motivation is, and you know whether that label is required to let them lead or whether they lead without it. and I think there's a lot of really interesting questions that come up with that and in terms of identity. actually had ah and a financial, a wealth planning ah seminar that was at and the the speaker said something. said, the most a sad thing I see is when people sell their companies and they were a CEO or a founder and then their company goes away and they wake up and they don't have that title anymore.
00:08:49
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he's like, I turned into a a counselor because these people go through these really big emotional struggles, not having that title or not having that and that label. And I think that's a that can be a negative thing too, right?
00:09:01
Speaker
So it's interesting. Yeah, be careful what you choose is your central theme of your identity. ah it Exactly. you like You may not like it when you wake up someday in the future. And that's I think we've all probably had that experience to some extent.
00:09:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I've definitely seen that as well as people tie their identity to a specific job or to a specific title. When that changes or some transition happens that they become lost.
00:09:29
Speaker
And so being able to have a broad-based identity pulled on, you know, tied to multiple different pillars that give you a solid foundation is something that I've seen very very successfully ah stable, emotionally happy ah people have have really found a lot of strength in.
00:09:49
Speaker
Now, I'm curious a little bit because I kind of i love this idea of being typecast. um And very early on, you were called a leader by your peers.
00:10:03
Speaker
You were like, wow, that's that's awesome. And maybe this is something I can lean into. I'm curious if you have any experiences where you were typecast perhaps into a role or an identity that you didn't identify with and how you're how you were able to kind of break through that.
00:10:21
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I would say that's probably, there's probably a dozen examples I could give in my life where I was like really aware of what externally people were sort of positioning me as a maybe and me going like, that's not what I want to be. That's not I've got do something different. Yeah, like, you know, I think that's fairly common. Yeah.
00:10:39
Speaker
um Man, just like the hard part of growing up is trying to figure out who you are and you know between what people are telling you and what you're telling yourself, it can be a confusing mess. But um I would say you know one big transition that I sort of had to make that was grew up kind of the yeah skateboarding and into punk music. and you know i was I was not the kid going to business school. or you know ah yeah like If you think about the people that we work with in our industry and things like that, i kind of laugh sometimes because
00:11:10
Speaker
I'm like, oh no, I was that punk kid that you you know was was hanging out in the you know back of the 7-Eleven and you know probably smoking a cigarette when I shouldn't have been doing that. and you know To make the transition to be like, hey, I actually don't want to be known for that. That's not who I want to be seen as. as the you know the ah rebellious punk without a cause. I was like, I got stuff that I'm actually interested in doing and in the world and education was one of those. and so I ended up going from this like punk rock kid to my undergrad was at number one, it was the most conservative school in the country at the time ranked by the National Review. so You know that that's that's pretty conservative.
00:11:49
Speaker
so I went from this punk kid to total you know ah academic at a you know private Catholic college that was you know super conservative. Totally different. And I made that transition. and But then I made the transition to not be the kid that was an academic kid in a private school, but like being in business. And so had to make that change quite a bit in my life.
Transitioning from Philosophy to Business
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'd love to hear a little bit about that transition and what you what you learned from that. So rural Idaho went to the most conservative private Catholic university.
00:12:23
Speaker
um And where was that? So you went from Idaho to where? Yeah, to Santa Paula, California, at a college called Thomas Aquinas College, literally 400 students, smallest kind of community.
00:12:35
Speaker
private school you could imagine, very, very unique. and the way it was actually ah an interesting and path for me to get there. and so yeah know I was this punk rock kid, sort of you know up to no good if you were listening to you know my my parents are you know my family in that regard.
00:12:54
Speaker
But I met a teacher who captured my interest and with the subject of philosophy. ah Specifically, it was political philosophy. and For a rural kid in Idaho in a public school, there now I'm an adult, I kind of know what that means in terms of resources and things like that. It was just a very, very lucky school to have the kind of talented teachers that we had.
00:13:16
Speaker
ah But there was a teacher named Stephen Hauge, who to this day I consider a friend. And he turned me on to political philosophy and the idea that the the interest in exploring ideas bigger than you know the practical ideas, the the the ethereal, the academic. And that was really appealing to me.
00:13:35
Speaker
That was a mental exercise that I really, really enjoyed. And his influence and his mentorship sort of an exposure and was what caused me to sort of grip onto that and choose that path.
00:13:49
Speaker
You need ideas bigger than yourself if you want to build something significant. There's an old proverb that goes, where there is no vision, the people perish. And I'm not just talking about ideas for startups that want to make a bunch of money.
00:14:02
Speaker
I mean that for any leader at any level, including parents, you need a vision that is bigger than survival if you want to find purpose and fulfillment. For Jeffrey, that vision was ignited by studying political philosophy and design.
00:14:15
Speaker
For Steve Jobs, it started with the college course on typography. There's no right or wrong path. Just start by following your curiosity. It was one that took a little bit of it. you know I remember even him saying, like you're just a punk kid. You're not going to ever make it.
00:14:32
Speaker
Tongue in cheek, he knew like there was something special about what what I was doing and wanting to do. But and it was it was a very interesting dynamic. Yeah, I love that. And I know that mentorship both has played a big part in your life um as being mentored as well as being a mentor to others.
00:14:49
Speaker
ah So that's really cool that you had that right from the beginning. So you went off, you're like, philosophy is going to be my thing. I'm going to go to a university named after one of the greatest philosophers, ah Thomas Aquinas, obviously super well known and in um and the world of philosophy.
00:15:09
Speaker
where You said there was another switch after that. So like what what was the transformation that you went from ah punk rock kid to a philosopher to a business student? yeah yeah no it is Yeah, it was one of those things where, and you know back to typecast, right if if somebody graduates with a degree in philosophy, you know you're you're sort of thinking like your economic prospects probably aren't super high.
00:15:35
Speaker
like that's not Those aren't fields where you have a highly compensated individuals. and A lot of people that graduated from the school that I went to, they would go into academic careers, either teaching or ah the monastic life, or things that weren't really sort of going to sustain what I sort of imagined for my myself in terms of of the wealth needs and things. and and Then some of them would go into do things like law and medicine, but very few went into the business world after and after that piece of it.
00:16:06
Speaker
and One of the key things that that we learned at our our university and it was sort of core to our values was this idea of the dialectical or the discussion method. So you think about Plato, you think about Aristotle.
00:16:19
Speaker
These were philosophers that and sort of and drove learning and understanding through conversation. And that was a big piece of it. And so we had to do a lot of writing and we had to have do a lot of explaining ourselves and defending our position if we were holding a particular thesis.
00:16:34
Speaker
And a lot of people were like, oh, well, that's not really, you know, those are things you go into academic life. But what I found is those skills were incredibly valuable in business.
Design, Programming, and Career Growth
00:16:43
Speaker
And when I started out in sort of my my my first, I'll call it real job, where I was a graphic designer slash, ah you know, yeah user experience programmer, um that really helped me.
00:16:56
Speaker
you know being Having that background of saying, like I need to show up and be ah explain why I did something the way I did, became super powerful to me as a leader. and and so Having that skill set and going through an education where you're constantly having to defend yourself really really set me up to to be successful as a leader in business. and That was the thing I think that a lot of people just didn't take away, but there's real power there.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. and And so as you moved out of your educational time and moved into your professional time, now you just throw out not only were you a punk rock kid and then a philosopher that became interested in business, you're also an artist ah from a graphic design perspective. So I'm curious where all that kind of came together and and and and where that took you from there.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, it was you know one of those things I'd always been curious about design and I had always just paid attention. i was i don't know I don't know what it was about me, but from a very early age, I was like upset if letters were spaced incorrectly on a document. and they don't or somebody had too many spaces after ah you know a paragraph end and then a book. and like I remember literally at 14 being like, this drives me crazy. and so I've always been design-oriented and i I appreciate things in that and that realm.
00:18:16
Speaker
so When I sort of took that role on as my first thing, I had go from had to go from a thinker to a doing and then contributing in a visual way versus a spoken way, it was really, really another transition for me to go, okay, I'm going to develop another part of my brain or another part of my sort of aspect or facet of myself.
00:18:36
Speaker
and and Then that also led to me sort of becoming a self-taught software engineer. so Early on in my career, you know also this is the beginning of the internet. right like We were all just trying to figure out what was going on and throwing stuff at the wall and see what would stick. But ah eventually I figured out, it's like, oh, I'm actually interested in.NET and SQL. I started doing teaching myself how to build applications in that and going from there. so That was like another transition where I had to you know, do that.
00:19:06
Speaker
And that first journey actually was in a healthcare care system and a hospital system that was a not-for-profit. And, you know, I built myself as a software engineer and then a software manager of other engineers kind of while was in that not-for-profit space as well.
00:19:23
Speaker
Nice. So as you, what what do you think drew you kind of through this through this path? I think there's There's a lot of people who kind of get stuck might be the wrong word.
00:19:35
Speaker
It might just be they start walking down a path and they keep going down that path and it's difficult for them to move from one to the other. um Where in this case, you know, you didn't follow ah the peers that you went to school with, with the traditional ah professional life post-undergrad.
00:19:51
Speaker
um You started going down a path of design, but then you found out that you're actually interested in development. And then you found, hey, now that I'm doing this development aspect, now I have these opportunities to actually become a ah manager here.
00:20:05
Speaker
So this is very nonlinear. So, but but I think a lot of people feel like they're stuck on a linear path. So I'm curious if there's any, whether it be advice or specific stories that really helped you to lean into that curiosity and leaning to jumping in the unknown based off of your interest instead of saying, hey, I'm going to stick here and just figure it out in the space I'm in.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, no that's a great question. i would say you know two things that have sort of, I guess, unlocked that ability for me to to do that is, number one is, I would say, i get really ah uncomfortable with inertia.
00:20:43
Speaker
i I get hyper aware of myself when I feel like I'm stagnating or I'm not growing or I'm not doing something different than what I was doing yesterday. um thrilled and The thing that would scare me is a job where I was like, you go to work every day, sit at a desk from nine to five. like That terrifies me. like I just couldn't do that.
00:21:04
Speaker
and and It's great for people who do, but I would sort of pull my hair out trying to you know not just jump out of my chair. um but But that was one thing which was just like just never being okay with where I am.
00:21:17
Speaker
like It's like, okay, now i'm here. I was always like, okay, well, what's next? I just wanted to constantly be moving. The second thing is curiosity. um the you know I say in jest a lot of people, particularly my wife, says, like you know sometimes you're like an annoying five-year-old. You're just like, why, why, why, why? and and I never mean it to be obnoxious, ah but i really just like I just want to really help me understand how this all breaks down, and I want to go deeper with people. and I think that curiosity plus that the need to never be sitting still,
00:21:52
Speaker
like drove me to create new opportunities that maybe weren't obvious and nonlinear to your to the word to use. Yeah. No, I love that. ah what um What role do you think that practice that you had to always being able to defend yourself and having to do that out loud or written down had in your ability to be introspective in that process?
00:22:20
Speaker
yeah That's a great question. um the Introspection and self-awareness in that regard is everything. right when we When we are showing up and we're having conversations with people, and maybe I'll use the example of yeah know when I was a software manager, I transitioned from not-for-profit to a for-profit. I actually went to work for a real software company, and that was just a different world of how you think about what your role is and in what your job is.
00:22:50
Speaker
and But when I made that transition, like I found out I was like kind of good at pre-sales technology. and so My first sort of job outside of software development in that world was now go explain to prospects and clients why this is the best approach for a technology or or something of that nature.
00:23:09
Speaker
and That was one of those things that really you know When you start getting, number one, when you're a software engineer and I was selling software tools to other software developers, like there's no more anxiety inducing moment in a sales situation where you've got a bunch of software developers who love to tear apart salespeople for sport.
00:23:29
Speaker
like that's just you know I was that way when I was a software developer. I loved it when some sales exec would come on and like, how many lines code have you ever developed in your life? and they're just like Then it's just a game run and you know it's it's pretty brutal at times.
00:23:43
Speaker
Blood in the water at that point. Exactly. exactly the Software leaders, we've we've all been there. We know what that is. but like That was part of what I was good at was going in and saying, okay, I see why you think that this might be and um you know a different path, but here,
00:23:58
Speaker
Let me explain why this matters in your workflow." Being able to connect with them and being able to have that deep conversation about the real fundamentals, that was everything to being able to be successful and and sell in that regard. and so I sort of awoke to the power of saying, like oh actually, my ability to have a good dialogue is actually the ability to explain and educate.
00:24:20
Speaker
And that is the key to sales, in my opinion. It's not tricking people. It's not, no, you just, sales is about explaining and educating. That's it. and And so it, you know, you, people with that background tend to do well there.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about some of the things that you learned or experience ah ah experienced as you moved from a not-for-profit to a for-profit organization.
00:24:46
Speaker
um Well, I learned the power of a bonus and a commission check. That was fun. That's not something you ever see and in a hospital. And i actually remember, if funny enough, one of my early mentors told me, he's like, first time you get a commission check is a sales...
00:25:02
Speaker
you know person or a pre-sales is like, it's it's a little addictive. You're going to you're going to ten see who you really are after you see that check. That was true.
00:25:13
Speaker
That a lot of fun though. so But that was on the the less interesting side. but so you know What I really recognized was there was a lot of there's a lot less consensus building and a need for you know sort of everybody to come together.
00:25:27
Speaker
On the one hand, sort of in the back office of healthcare care versus a ah a for-profit publicly traded company, which is what I was working for, and that was something that was very, very different. We just moved faster, you know moved with more intent, but also didn't have sort of the human values that that that we did in a healthcare system. It was just different.
00:25:48
Speaker
yeah Never talked about the word profit. and it was Obviously, we were just there to lose money and yeah keep the thing alive, but it's a very different in regard. Yeah. when When you started ah figuring out some of these other keys to motivation, new tools that were available, not only for you to receive, but also presumably at some point for you to give from the forprot from the nonprofit world to the for-profit world, ah you know typically nonprofit, very mission-driven, for-profit, typically very profit-driven.
00:26:23
Speaker
um I think that both of us would agree that are the our favorite organizations to work with or our favorite organizations that we that we lead are kind of pulling those two together.
00:26:36
Speaker
So i'd I'd be curious, just based off of just from your experiences and and motivation, what is that play or balance of the interplay between those two?
Mission-Driven Leadership
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. I think that every company has the opportunity to be about more than what they do and in terms of the software they make, the product they manufacture or whatever. and you know When I kind of think about yeah what is the mission is you know driven component of ah core banking software, you know there's obviously contributing to the health and performance of you know banking and financial services. and I always trying of think of the people who
00:27:14
Speaker
you know would be most vulnerable to that. I'm not talking about the ultra wealthy. I'm talking about you know people that you know if their debit card doesn't work to get gas on the way to work, like that's that's important stuff. That's that's meaningful and material.
00:27:28
Speaker
So it's important. Now, is it in the sense of like you know this is going to help change the environment or you know eliminate you know war? or like No, it's not that big.
00:27:42
Speaker
Modern society is so accustomed to things just working. Clean water, constant electricity, over-the-counter pain medicine, all miracles, and all taken for granted.
00:27:54
Speaker
But when an act as seemingly simple as paying for gas is made impossible by an arcane stack of banking technology, the consequences are anything but small. That's why it doesn't take earth-shattering ideas or innovations to deliver massive improvements to our quality of life.
00:28:09
Speaker
Sure, we need cures for cancer, but we also need to know that when we're buying fuel and groceries, that we can trust the banking system to function. That's the domain that Jeffery's company is determined to improve on.
00:28:26
Speaker
and But where I found sort of mission-driven abilities and the way that I lead is thinking about what is my obligation as a leader to sort of give opportunities to my team and to the people who are the next in line to get opportunities like you and I have.
00:28:42
Speaker
um That's one of the things where I think my my focus and my mission is about I've transitioned as a leader where I was always about like what am I doing? What's my career? or Where am I in my career? like Where now I'm like, where are the people who I'm leading? Where are they in their career? are they get Are they getting what they need? are they you know Do they see hope that they can get to some dream they want to achieve?
00:29:04
Speaker
and That's become sort of my mission and value system, which is it's kind of consistent with whatever I'm doing at the time as well. and But I don't have like a particular passion for you know saving the rainforest or you know making sure that we have clean water. Those are amazing causes and I'm so glad that people have that. But and mine's really about how do I help people have opportunities.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. are there Are there specific times earlier on in your career where you had leaders that maybe didn't do that for you and that might have driven you to want to do that? Or the flip side, have you had some really good examples that kind of inspired you to now have that as your adopted mission?
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah, i've you know, I've been really fortunate to have a lot of really great mentors who invested in me. and I laughed because sometimes it was their choice and sometimes it wasn't their choice, was my choice. I was like, I'm going to use you as a mentor. This is not something I'm asking. You're stuck with I don't care what's going happen. You're stuck with me. Yeah, I'm a leech. I'm just going to steal all your good ideas now. So whether or not you want to address me directly, that's up to you.
00:30:13
Speaker
But I've had like these different mentor relationships over my career that have made absolutely all the difference. and and yeah For me, one of the things about mentorship is and it's it's very, very powerful to understand how to grow and learn what what you want to do, but it's also as powerful and should be as powerful learning for what you don't want to do. and i would say I've had mixed experiences with mentors. you know It always sort of starts out like really happy and good. and then
00:30:44
Speaker
you know Sometimes you transition off. like you know If you have the same mentor for your entire life, you're doing it wrong. and Not everybody should be able to coach you at your entire spectrum. It's about things that you need to develop who you are.
00:30:57
Speaker
But we we get this view that like if we're a mentor-mentee relationship, that the mentee is just like, do what the mentor says. and nothing and could be further from the truth. I have had so many mentors where it wasn't that they did something that was like ethically bad or whatever, but I would see them and and go that's not who I am as a person, right?
00:31:15
Speaker
and Maybe it's in how you treat an employee that is having a difficult time. Some of my mentors were like you know really, really over easy and some were really hard and I had to find out where my balance was because Jeffrey Kendall can't be you know person A and and person you know C. I'm me.
00:31:34
Speaker
and that That was the biggest thing for me to kind of figure out that that's okay and in in terms of those relationships. so those are you know I think every mentorship has positive and and negatives, but yeah I think you just got to appreciate the fact that you're you're pulling from the selection of objects, not just taking it all.
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and it sounds like ah exposure to a wide variety of leadership styles, a wide variety of communication styles, and being able to recognize, hey, i I'm observing what this person's doing.
00:32:11
Speaker
I'm going to take it back. What do I like? what to What don't I like to be able to help me identify who I am? Absolutely. And you have to have that permission from your leadership. Yeah.
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah. Now, one question I have is, is in in some cases, ah you know both both you and I had a fairly significant career before we stepped into the CEO role.
00:32:35
Speaker
um I think there are opportunities and there's times when people have very early on in their career stepped into that leadership role or CEO role or co-founder role, et cetera. So I'd love to hear a little bit about how how can you still find that type of exposure when you are at the top of the organization ah where you are right now, but also speaking to some that might be younger that are sitting in that spot as well that don't have those you you know decade or decades long experiences of being led and mentored by so so many different styles.
The Role of YPO in Leadership Development
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah, what a timely and relevant and point and question, Nathan. One of the things, I'm actually, I'm in Washington, D.C. today with an organization that I i sort of participate in and am active in called YPO, which stands for a Young Presidents Organization. And it's a 50-plus organization, but it was founded specifically to help people who were presidents or CEOs of companies and and you know sort of got there early.
00:33:40
Speaker
In fact, there's like a cutoff. there You have to be under 45 to be able to join the the organization. and It specifically targets that sort of point of saying, sometimes leaders develop a lot faster and get thrown into a position where they need to lead, where they haven't had the sort of time to be educated or marinate in other experiences.
00:33:58
Speaker
And organizations like that sort of come together to, you know, sort of help coach, mentor, sort of side by side versus managing directly. But that's kind of a thing that people use. And so I've learned a lot in that organization about sort of how to lead and influence and help other people or get help from other people when you're not necessarily in a reporting structure.
00:34:20
Speaker
And that's actually helped me with with our company and the business that I run because I really try to make sure that This is not an architected hierarchy of people. It's more about, hey, this person might report to this person, but that doesn't mean that they have the you know they need to be able to develop who they are individually and and sort of get that that attention in that way. and so That's really influenced how I sort of try to encourage my leaders to you know lead their people too.
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah. Well, love that no matter where you are in your organization or career development, even if you are at the top of the organization, there are still groups, people, um networks that you can get to to be able to get that exposure, to be able to to get that learning. And I love that you're an example of that.
00:35:09
Speaker
When i took my first do I took this job, this was my first CEO job, my good friend, Nick Kennedy, was talking to him. i'm like I was like, dude, I think I might have imposter syndrome.
00:35:20
Speaker
I don't know if I'm supposed to be doing this. and he goes He's like, the good news is you're right. You don't you don't know what it needs to be a CEO. and I was like, what? and He's like, you only know 20% of what it's going to take to do this job.
00:35:31
Speaker
The other 80%, you're going to learn real quick. and nothing to be for if That was like that was spot on. ah you walk in and you're like I didn't realize I had to deal with these kind of decisions and questions. you and you know but like You just get hit with all sorts of things. You're like, I'm a software engineer. I have never had to address why we have to you know pay government taxes in South Dakota. It's just like, all right, I guess we have to make a decision on something, but you know you're not prepared for it.
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'd love to touch on a little bit of this idea of imposter syndrome. One of the things that has that was shocking to me as i have had the chance to have different leadership positions and interact with a whole bunch of leaders, whether they're CEOs or presidents or other C-level executives or even VPs.
00:36:21
Speaker
um I would say that the vast majority of them, 80 to 90%, have expressed to me an aspect of this idea of imposter syndrome. um And you touched on that a little bit as well. I'd love to hear ah some of how you have overcome that or have dealt with that, both for yourself as well as as you've worked with other leaders.
Facing Imposter Syndrome
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. I think you know part of it comes back to yeah self-awareness and introspection. I think sometimes self-awareness is always a really, you know it's generally a good thing.
00:37:00
Speaker
and But sometimes self-awareness, when it turns into the hard thing, is when it starts making you feel like you're looking at yourself and you're not seeing it for the truth. You're you're seeing things, but they're maybe not how you how they really are. and But you mistake them for how they really are.
00:37:19
Speaker
Another term for introspection gone wrong is navel-gazing. The longer you stare at your own problems without connecting to the wide, beautiful world, the less perspective you have.
00:37:32
Speaker
Small problems become all-consuming while the really important stuff passes by unnoticed. This is a poignant case for why we need dialectics. Leaders need to look internally and externally, creating a cohesive vision from contrasting perspectives.
00:37:49
Speaker
That's where mentors and peers can step in to help. Seek out relationships with people you can trust, people who care about you and will tap you on the shoulder when you get fixated on that piece of lint just above your belt buckle.
00:38:07
Speaker
For example, you might be like, oh, I couldn't be a leader because you know i am afraid to get up in front of audiences and speak. Well, okay. like That would probably cause you to be like, okay, well, maybe I can't do that. Maybe that's not me.
00:38:20
Speaker
But what you really find out is that if you just kind of go through the motions, sometimes you have to do the things you hate to do. I actually hate public speaking. It's something I i tell my team and they're like, what? like You're the most obnoxious extrovert we know. like What do you mean you don't like public speaking? I'm like, sweat everywhere. when ah you know and it's always like that's just That's just who I am. i have to deal with that and work through it.
00:38:43
Speaker
But I figured out how to do it and I figured out who I am and and what I'm going to do. and so that The more longer that you're in the seat, you get that confidence. But man, the first time you're in it, it's really tough to get out. I think the biggest advice I give people is just always remind yourself no one was born knowing anything.
00:39:01
Speaker
right No one in this world was born a CEO, no one was born a leader. You developed it over time and you're gonna be perfectly imperfect at it. So get ready for failure, because you're gonna see a lot of it.
00:39:13
Speaker
and And no one tells you that about this like this job, right? It's like, oh man, it's actually like just failure after failure after failure, and then you get these nuggets of success. and that But I think it's actually, and think there's a reason that quite a few, not all, but quite a few CEOs have spent time in that sales role because of dealing with that ambiguity, being held accountable for things that you have very little control over is a good little training for being a CEO. Because you know I joke around, I don't know if you feel this way as well, but I joke around, I have the least power in my company.
00:39:49
Speaker
right i i I own very few decisions across the entire company, and I just have to trust a whole bunch of other people to make amazing decisions all the time. Yeah, and I'll bet the the inner person that used to have the hands on everything is you know constantly just like, all right, how do I how do i let them do that? But you know wanting that that having the hands on is so tough when to make that transition, yeah kind of going back to that theme.
00:40:16
Speaker
and You have to learn to give up control, right? and And it is something that people... Now, to be fair, there's a lot of freedom and in the decisions that you get to make when you're in the seat, right?
00:40:27
Speaker
You know, so, and you know, I don't have somebody watching the clock on me every minute and things like that. And those are nice things to have, you know, in the world as you as you sort of develop your career. But and there's still a lot of, and you know, out of my control stuff that I have to deal with.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah.
From Chief of Staff to CEO
00:40:44
Speaker
take So take me through this ah this ah transition now. So ah we kind of talked about punk rock to philosopher to designer to developer to development manager to moving into sales.
00:41:01
Speaker
Take me through that rest of the transition that you went from as you stepped into sales for the first time and now you ended up in the position that you're in now. Yeah. so I attribute a lot of the the growth and opportunity I've had, particularly over the last decade or so, to and is the the last company and experience that I had at.
00:41:23
Speaker
I was yeah but hired to be a sales leader, but then went through a transition where the founder um of the company that I was working for eventually was and yeah took another role outside the company and the board hired what I would call ah a hired gun CEO, a you know a professional CEO, if you will. and the The gentleman's name, who's still one of my dear friends and and mentors, Tom Hogan, ah he had come from companies that were hundreds of times bigger than what we were. so he thought of yeah This was probably the smallest thing he had ever run in his life.
00:41:56
Speaker
But he he pointed at me after the first day on the job and said, I think you probably know where a lot of the bodies are buried. and As I learned about this company and what we need to do to grow and change, he's like, you're going to be my chief of staff.
00:42:09
Speaker
I was like, awesome. What is that? Yeah, what but what does that what what does that mean? Yeah, yeah it was ah it was it like and and you know unequivocal yes, but to what, right? and And I remember him telling me very explicitly, he's like, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like, oh, kind of want to be you.
00:42:27
Speaker
and i don't want to the the CEO seat. That's interesting to me. And he said, I'm going to teach you how to be a CEO. And I was kind of taken aback because like that that's just not how I imagined that conversation going in my life. Like, you know,
00:42:40
Speaker
that somebody would just be having an intentional will be like, oh yeah, well, you just need to go on the CEO path. and That's not what it was, but it sort of took me by surprise to say like, oh, well man, that's interesting. How would that work? and um Interestingly enough, Tom Hogan, who you know has had ah ah a lot of he he runs a company right now called Celebrite, which is doing really well. but One of the things that I've learned about Tom is that he's had over two dozen people that have worked for him go on to become CEOs themselves, and I'm one of those. and
00:43:11
Speaker
That's an awesome stat. I love Isn't it crazy? It's just really, really insane about how somebody can have that kind of influence on that many people at that level, to me, was always just absolutely mind-boggling.
00:43:25
Speaker
you know mindboggling and That role um was really, really important for me because I got to be a part of like most strategic conversations and meetings that you know maybe another, you know if we were there talking about a strategic ah finance topic, maybe sales wouldn't be at the table normally.
00:43:42
Speaker
and so i got to hear and understand what was going on in parts of the business and learn about them in ways that I wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise. and What that really led to is you make a set of capable hands for a diverse set of problems that come up in the business.
00:43:55
Speaker
So, what I started figuring out is that then I was the fixer. And you know if something was, hey, sales are falling in North America, we need somebody to go spend six months turning it around.
00:44:07
Speaker
you know Number one, that was like sort of what I did, was go take tasks from the CEO, go you know sort of affect the change and drive it for them and then come back. And I always tell people, if you ever have the chance to do that role and you've got the right kind of mindset and you're and the CEO is right,
00:44:23
Speaker
it's a really powerful way to grow in your career. And that that certainly is exactly how it ended up for me. you know i got the experience to be able to run a division of the company.
00:44:34
Speaker
I was accountable for growing it, scaling it. And then that ultimately that led to the exit of the company and us you know being successful in the sale and returning a lot of money to our investors. and And as soon as I had that sort of like you know, ah yeah, you did that.
00:44:49
Speaker
Then that was when I got the call to be a CEO and I already had the experience to do it. So and but he was right. ah You know, Tom, if you ever see this, thanks again, buddy. I appreciate you. But that's, ah you know, that's just sort of how it came about.
00:45:03
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. So you get the call to, know, someone, a recruiter, board, I don't know, calls you up and says, hey, we're we're interested in you taking the helm of a new core processing system in the banking industry, which as we already talked about is like the the biggest challenge I could think of if you wanted to start a company.
00:45:33
Speaker
And it was first time CEO, a huge meaty problem to kind of jump into. and you said yes. Tell me a little bit about that. Because I would imagine there had to be some some things that were going on in your mind, the pros and cons list, all that fun stuff of of of of what to do and and why to do it.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a great question. I think, you know, one of the things I learned that I i wasn't aware of, or just nobody had ever pointed out to me, when you go through an exit of a company, and you're in the SaaS software space like you and I are, and that brings a lot of attention to, obviously, the company that that goes through a transaction, but it also brings a lot of attention to the individuals that were leading or participating in that company. And so, you know,
00:46:24
Speaker
90 days after we sold the you know company to Tenenus, which was our trend who we transacted with, you know I was getting calls from recruiters. right And they were like, hey, you just went through a big transaction. then you know are you you know Would you like a new opportunity? Yeah, what's up next? and yeah and it And it really, like I would say your personal value in the recruiting market goes up.
00:46:46
Speaker
pretty significantly, pretty quickly. You know, calls that I wasn't getting before we sold, I was getting dozens a week, literally at times for that. And so, you know, tell people all the time, I'm like, if you have a chance to go through an exit and really work it out and go through it,
00:47:02
Speaker
it's It's more than just the individual sort of compensation or reward for the exit. It's the opportunity that gets open to you that's really fun. and and so I highly recommend it for people who who want to do that.
00:47:14
Speaker
and But that is one of the things that sort of yeah I would say, that, that willingness to do, to go through that and learn from that was huge. But, you know, I started getting recruiter calls and, you know, sort of, by the way, this is one of those things i always tell people, which is I actually had an offer from a ah company and then they wanted a reference and I gave them a reference to the VC funds that ran my prior company. and As soon as they found out that I was open to looking at careers, the VC fund was like, oh, no, no, no, don't take that job. We got one for you. We want you to come here. and so
00:47:48
Speaker
like By asking for a reference, they actually lost me as a candidate, which I think was you know a lesson to be learned there. but but yeah though That was what that led to was was literally and you know my My current investors saying, hey, you did such a good job over there.
00:48:03
Speaker
ah you know We'd like you to go grow this other you know asset that we have and yeah scale it. That's how I took the job. and always tell people, I said told my wife, I said, hey, honey, it's the best day of my life. Good news is got my first CEO gig, big bucket list item I've wanted for years.
00:48:20
Speaker
Bad news is it's running a company that nobody would ever want to run nobody and nobody wants to buy what what we make. so you know I got to figure that out. It's going to be great. Yeah. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how's the play? You know, it's a kind of the, just like, all right. but ah But it's been an awesome journey. It's been really fun.
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah. Were you fully aware of the challenge that you were stepping into? Not not not even remotely, not even close. so I had no clue. ah I'll be honest. Like I knew enough to get there, but I had no no clue about how complex running this business would be and building a core, ah you know,
00:48:57
Speaker
i I sort of feel like that now I'm like the jaded, experienced person five years into this role. I'm like, yeah, okay, now I know what I'm doing. and But man, I had no clue just how detailed some of the things that a core has to do.
00:49:12
Speaker
This goes back to my earlier comment about how unglorious and completely essential banking technology is to everyone's quality of life. Banks focus on stability because they have a mandate from regulators to do so.
00:49:27
Speaker
Consumers want slick banking technology because every other part of their digital life just works. Why should banking be any different? For any leaders in fintech and modern banking, the path to success is a tricky one to walk.
00:49:41
Speaker
Move fast and break things isn't a mantra that regulators have patience for. But you won't get far if consumers don't use your products. Maybe, just maybe, there's a way to bring these two opposing viewpoints together.
00:49:58
Speaker
I always love it because every every vendor has a position or ah you know sort of a thesis on, oh, you don't need you know that core is bad, that core is good, follow out the core, reduce the dependency on the core. There's all these different messages. And at the end of the day, you're like,
00:50:13
Speaker
you know what, when you're talking about whether or not to apply the payment ah or you know the interest calculation on this day of the month versus that day of the month and only on this type of product and when the sun is at 45 degrees in the sky and you know the the clouds are out, then do it. like There's that sort of level of detail that's just maddening.
00:50:34
Speaker
ah and and And it's complex, and that's why good news about forward processing software is super sticky. The bad news about it is it's super sticky, and so it's really hard to displace.
00:50:45
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it it it it is funny, though. I mean, I can't tell you how many of these conversations I've had where when you ask someone, hey, if you knew how hard it was going to be before you did it, would you have done it?
00:50:57
Speaker
And lots of times the answer is no. um So, I mean, I would i would say that from, you know, I've been able to work at several different startups and it's hard, man. It ain't easy.
00:51:11
Speaker
But there's something there's something about this ignorant optimism here Innovation has to come at some point from ignorance. If you think about, I always, you know number one, our our company was founded by people who couldn't spell the word bank when they you know started building it, but they're like, oh, you know what?
00:51:30
Speaker
We hear a lot of people complain about their core. We should go fix that problem. like You have to kind of be dumb because anybody who knew what that really meant would never in a million years be like, yeah, I'm going to go do it. so You have to do that. and now I always use the example of like Uber.
00:51:44
Speaker
Uber wasn't a bunch of taxi drivers that went and built new software. It was people who probably never even ran a taxi company or drove a taxi in their entire life, and but they were like business people who were tired of you know not being able to get something nicer than a taxi on time. If you remember what Uber really started, I was a black car hailing service. That was it.
00:52:06
Speaker
and i always tell people, it's like you know That didn't come from people who already understood transportation networks super well. They had to invent the concept. And I think you do have to be ignorant to innovate to some extent. yeah yep Yeah. Yep. You can't respect the rules, you know.
00:52:26
Speaker
That's true. There has to be some level level of disrespect to to to change things. I mean, Uber, just if you want to keep going on that, right, they had to figure out how to literally get city ordinances changed.
00:52:40
Speaker
And in some cases, blatantly ignored city ordinances in some places just to be able to run. I think you're like versus running a big company is like playing poker a little bit. like I remember you know back when the old poker crazes 20 years ago kind of resurfaced for everybody.
00:52:59
Speaker
i remember you know my wife and I were playing poker with a couple of our friends and somebody just kept making just like really dumb bets. They'd just go all in on you know ah two, three unsuited or whatever. it' sort like and Then they'd win every occasionally and everybody just be like,
00:53:13
Speaker
da And it was so frustrating to try to compete against somebody who was ignorant of the rules. They're like, well, you would never go all in if you had such a bad hand. And so everybody else around the table who was experienced sort of operated with that in their mind.
00:53:29
Speaker
But someone who shows up and doesn't have ah an awareness of the social norm or the norm of how you play, then they start winning and it frustrates the hell out of everybody who's in the thing. They're not following the rules. Yeah, like, what do you mean? And you you sort of get frustrated. You're like, yeah, that's how that works. Like, that's, you know, that's ChatGPT. That's Uber. That's the, you know, there are people that came in and just did like, yeah, we just did it.
00:53:52
Speaker
We just totally ignored everything that you said was something you had to abide by. Yeah, no absolutely. ah um you know It makes me think of the classic um Harvard article about Blue Ocean strategy, right? If you if you want to compete, just change change the name of the game.
00:54:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly it. Just create your own market. yeah and Yeah. the so That's the interesting part being at the poker table, but the also interesting part is there's a lot of people who walk away with no money when they bet stupidly. and so The people who are sitting around it, the experienced people who've who've gone through those hard bets and the bad beats and whatever,
00:54:32
Speaker
They're the ones that are like, I'm going to be more conservative about it and risk, you know, sort of stratified about how I approach it. And so, you know, yeah, the flip side is there's more dead bodies on the road to building cores than there are successes.
00:54:45
Speaker
You know, so I'd probably say there's probably a dozen cores in this world that that matter in terms of, you know, and scale and adoption. that's That's a pretty low amount of options that are out there.
00:54:57
Speaker
And the reason is it's hard and a lot of people fail on the way to doing it. Yeah. I'm curious just to pull on this thread a little bit about, you know, we talked a little bit about optimistic ignorance, ah willing to, you know, askew the norms of an industry, trying to do different things, like ah creating chaos, if you will.
Managing Chaos in Company Scaling
00:55:22
Speaker
um But then when you're actually scaling and growing a company, you can't have chaos, right? like Like you mentioned, if you continue to askew all rules, the likelihood that you'll lose all your money is pretty pretty high.
00:55:34
Speaker
So as as a CEO of a growth company, how do you manage that tension between that chaos and the necessary order to actually manage the growth?
00:55:48
Speaker
and when When I figure it out, I'll let you know. Cool. Yeah. That'll be like five years from now, maybe. yeah That's optimistic. ah But yeah. No, I, you know, honestly, the way that I try to balance decision-making and trying to bring order from the chaos is, ah number one, I always know, you know ah we aspire as people, as companies, things like that, usually to more than we can do, right? and you know but I'm probably not alone in being like, I need 1,000 things done, but I know we only have the capacity to do 50, right? And so part of it is just...
00:56:23
Speaker
sort of throwing it all out there and like you know sort of hoping organically that the right priorities make it through. and The more vision and strategy that you have locked down, you can you know use that to triage it.
00:56:34
Speaker
But one of the hard parts is a lot of things come up that you didn't plan for, and so having to deal with you know sort of unplanned distractions, strategic you know intent, things like that. and That's where stuff starts to break down.
00:56:47
Speaker
and But I would say you know where I've grown as a leader, number one, you know I had to lead this company through kind of a ah ah challenging conversion and a very public ah sort of experience that we went through that was really, really hard on our company.
00:57:03
Speaker
and It was hard on me as a leader, as you can imagine, because i you know number one is that you know leaders who complain about how hard it is. I just wanted to shut the hell up. like I don't care about how hard your life is as CEO. But this is for leaders that want to learn, so it's okay. straight That's true. that's true just don't I'm not that that's a person not self-aware of being like, yeah, these these are you know different levels of problems, but they're problems nonetheless. and and When you go through ah really, really big potentially existential you know horror moment like we did during this this pub very public conversion um of digital, it was it was really, really challenging. But what it did for me is it gave me a perspective as a leader of going,
00:57:45
Speaker
I now really understand my risk tolerance, which is I'm never going to take a risk that's goingnna that I think will put me in a position to be seated there, even though that wasn't all our fault, new you know even though most of it wasn't.
00:57:58
Speaker
I just think about like how do I not ever do that again? But at the same time, what it's also done, Nathan, is it's made me really comfortable with with sort of things potentially going wrong on the little side.
00:58:09
Speaker
Whereas I used to want everything to be perfect. I'm now like, yeah the things I need to be perfect are up here and the hard stuff, this little stuff I i can let go, it's not going to be perfect. It's okay that it's not perfect.
00:58:20
Speaker
That was kind of like, maybe the best thing I took away from that type of experience was just saying, what am I going to in the future spend my heartbeats on, right? What am I going to have anxiety over and not, and major on the majors is kind of where I landed. And And it lets you do that when you kind of go through that pain. It's like, yeah, I had my arm cut off.
00:58:39
Speaker
Great. My pinky's like, no problem. Take that off first. you know yeah Yeah, it puts it it puts it into context in um what what really matters, what's going to have the big impact and stuff like that. And i thank you for you know sharing that. I think that's a beautiful insight that is hard earned.
00:59:01
Speaker
um You and I didn't have a personal relationship at that time, but I remember when seeing that, was like, man, if I knew Jeffrey, i I wish I could just give him a hug. but You know, yeah. ah it was It was funny, Nathan, like you know and and again, to the people who are out there that you know lead companies or want to someday, it's like yeah there's there's nothing more anxiety-inducing than going through or something like that and having the world focused on and and being like, you did it. that you It's your problem. You're like, no, it's not. it' like I didn't do it. and you know Just all the things that you have to go through, and there's no playbook.
00:59:36
Speaker
on how to handle a situation like that. And you really have to rely on making, number one, decisions real time and decisions that are consistent with your values. like That was probably one of the the hardest things was just to say, like no matter what, we're going to do the right thing.
00:59:53
Speaker
And you know everybody would come out and say that you know while it's going on, but it's been three years. And like I can tell you, you know we all held our heads high as we navigated that situation and because we thought we did it with character and with you know ah being true to who we are from our values perspective. And and nothing's more important when you go through those things than to remember that. So and hopefully no one else has to go through that sort of thing. But if you do, like hold on to that.
01:00:21
Speaker
It's inevitable, though. you know Stuff is going to go wrong. if you If you put yourself in a position to be a leader and you put yourself in a position to go do big things, it's inevitable that struggles are going to be a part of it. And thank you for sharing those insights.
01:00:35
Speaker
and And I think that's a great place to to kind of wrap up our conversation. So we always like to to wrap up with two different questions. One is,
01:00:45
Speaker
There are lots of places you can get business book recommendations, so we don't want to do that. um i I would love to hear if you have any ah have a book that you would recommend, like a non-business book for for folks to to read.
01:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, non-business, that's tough because i there's probably always some sort of business aspect to it. But one book that I recently read at the recommendation of one of my favorite clients and CEOs, Frank Sorrentino from ConnectOne Bank, is called Freedom's Forge.
01:01:18
Speaker
And it's a, number one, I'm getting older in my world, so that means I have to necessarily like World War II history and and you know things that other old It's inevitable.
01:01:29
Speaker
It's inevitable. you know I'm going to start wearing socks with the you know sandals and you know all the good things that that older men do. um but but my My love for World War II history and appetite there, ah this book is really interesting about how to pivot and sort of organize quickly.
01:01:48
Speaker
in you know it was all about the supply chain and resource management of factories and roads and labor and everything back in the US s while the war was going on.
01:01:59
Speaker
And ah this concept of like how they brought am man American manufacturing principles from like Henry Ford and things like that into making these this massive war machine that we had to be.
01:02:11
Speaker
and So it is a little bit about business, but it was an amazing historical and insight. And I didn't realize that how many ah household names today were sort of involved in building that, like Kaiser and from Kaiser Permanente, the healthcare system.
01:02:27
Speaker
yeah That was where that company grew from building ships in the Oakland shipyards. and But that's what now today is Kaiser Permanente Healthcare. care and so You get some interesting like generation you know ah generation stories of companies that we know today and what they were doing back then. It's interesting.
01:02:43
Speaker
yeah that's awesome. All right. And then the last question, from your perspective, is a leader born or is a leader made? Man,
01:02:56
Speaker
you're not born a leader. you you you You have to learn it. i i mean I'm going to major on that one, although you have to have some things that are just part of your personality, but I think you can learn.
01:03:08
Speaker
I think that's the way. Yeah. I'm curious what your take is. Like now, yeah Oh, well, I can't have a take. I ask everyone else this question. Oh, man. That's a nice exit there. I can't i can't spike the punch bowl.
01:03:24
Speaker
I like that. Sharing your story and kind of going through all the different transitions, the curiosity that you led to you know go from one spot to the next definitely shows um a path to find and and and get the type of experiences and exposures to be able to help you get in the position that you're in now and to be able to find success. so Thank you so much for sharing sharinging your short stories, sharing your insights. it was ah It was awesome. I learned so much.
01:03:56
Speaker
I appreciate the opportunity. i owe so much to everybody else that has helped me in my career and given me those opportunities. and it's It's always fun to share and ah give gives back some credit and yeah maybe make it easier for other people to learn some of the hard things I've had to go through.
01:04:12
Speaker
Absolutely. Thanks, Jeffrey. Thanks s lot, Nathan. um When the medieval priest, theologian, and philosopher Thomas Aquinas wrote, if the highest aim of a captain were to preserve his ship, he would keep it in port forever.
01:04:29
Speaker
He eloquently encapsulates the tension between chaos and order that leaders face. The purpose of building a sailing vessel is to send it on a voyage that will expose it to life-threatening danger.
01:04:42
Speaker
The goal isn't to chase the danger, but to defend against it in pursuit of a higher purpose. A leader is responsible for the mission and the safety of his or her team. Those two competing priorities exist at the same time.
01:04:55
Speaker
In fact, they can even build on each other if you embrace them fully. Whether it's poker or business, you need to bring a coherent strategy and a determination to play the odds.
01:05:07
Speaker
You can make all the right moves and still fail. Meanwhile, you may have to watch a competitor win in spite of their incompetence. Jeffrey Kendall leaped into the captain's chair at Nimbus, even though he was unaware of the deep and perplexing challenge of core banking software.
01:05:23
Speaker
If his highest aim was safety, this would have been an obvious blunder. Instead, he accepted the risk of failure and the challenge of creating value in a marketplace littered with failed companies. Leadership isn't knowing what's beyond the horizon.
01:05:39
Speaker
It's the firm conviction that you can navigate it with your team, no matter what happens. Thanks again for listening to my interview with Jeffrey Kendall. These conversations are a gift that I love sharing with our audience.
01:05:52
Speaker
You'll find the links to Jeffrey's book recommendations in the show notes. You've been listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief, a podcast produced and distributed by ZSuite Technologies Incorporated, all rights reserved. I'm your host, Nathan Baumeister, the CEO and co-founder of ZSuite Tech.
01:06:09
Speaker
This show is co-produced, written, and edited by Zach Garver. Sound engineering was done by Nathan Butler at Nimblewit Productions. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to leave us a review or share the episode. This helps other people to find our show.
01:06:23
Speaker
You can also listen on all major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, and Spotify.