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Kathleen Craig – Saying no to hustle culture, the road to true kindness, and solving the mystery of product market fit | Episode 11
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Welcome to episode eleven of Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief! Joining me today is Kathleen Craig, founder and CEO of Plinqit.
On this show, I’m unpacking the stories, decisions, and influences that make people successful leaders. Kathleen came into the banking world with a wealth of customer experience knowledge gained from her years in the restaurant industry. That foundation has informed everything she’s done since.
My name is Nathan Baumeister; I am the Co-founder and CEO of ZSuite Tech and the host of this podcast.
Kathleen Craig understands that if you truly care about a person’s wellbeing, you’ll muster the courage to tell them the truth. True compassion isn’t blind to conflict or issues, it brings them into the bigger picture of what’s best for that person. Niceness is often the downfall of what could be a beautiful relationship.
At Plinqit, the company Kathleen founded on nights and weekends while working for a bank, her team equips financial institutions with retail tools to reach their goals. They’re changing the way that banks and credit unions attract and manage their retail deposits.
In this episode you’ll learn that founding a business doesn’t have to take priority over raising a family or being a well-rounded person. It’s does take a deep commitment to your vision and a willingness to face uncomfortable truths head on.
Kathleen is a rare breed of CEO and founder – bringing kindness and candor to the workplace so that everyone can become better.
Resources:
Kathleen’s recommendation:
Book: Unbroken
Connect:
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Story of Leadership
00:00:00
Speaker
The first time I met him, an hourly employee went up to him and said, hey, Paul, I can't make rent. Can I have a hundred bucks? And I was witnessing this going, what? Why would she even think to go up to the right? This is this is just crazy interaction on so many levels.
00:00:20
Speaker
Without missing a beat, without asking, when will you pay me back or anything, he just pulled out his wallet and handed it to her and that was the end of it. That was just the end of the conversation, at least that I witnessed.
00:00:32
Speaker
And I just was blown away. I was blown away by that willingness to help his hourly employee on such a human level. I just had never witnessed something like that. And it has stayed with me to this day, right? If my employees are struggling, if I want to be a resource, I want to be someone that they come to.
Podcast Overview: Builder Banker Hacker Chief
00:00:58
Speaker
Hi, my name is Nathan Baumeister, and you're listening to Builder Banker Hacker Chief. A podcast where executives from the world of finance and technology share the story of how they got where they are and the decisions that made them who they are. I'm looking for hidden moments of truth and sacrifice, wisdom and folly, and what it's like to navigate the treacherous waters at the helm of a growing company.
00:01:21
Speaker
I want to do all that so that together we can learn from their journey and use that insight personally and professionally.
Meet Kathleen Craig: Compassionate Leadership and Career Path
00:01:30
Speaker
In episode 11, my guest is Kathleen Craig, founder and CEO of Plinkett. A lot of people who meet Kathleen at industry events fail to realize that her warm, bubbly demeanor is backed by an assertive, stoic leadership style. She's equal parts compassion and titanium resolve.
00:01:49
Speaker
Kathleen advanced quickly in her career, managing others from a young age and garnering responsibility way beyond her years. Even so, when push came to shove, she prioritized her family above the career path she started on. That didn't slow her down though. When Kathleen jumped into banking, she quickly reached the rank of VP.
00:02:08
Speaker
As a CEO, she doesn't buy into hustle culture and she doesn't have to.
Building an Innovative Company Culture
00:02:12
Speaker
Kathleen has worked hard, building slower than some startups, but never straying from the path of innovation and value creation. She's assembled a team that believes in the mission, owns their outcomes, and stares down reality with unflinching courage.
00:02:27
Speaker
In her roles prior to being a founder, Kathleen relied on a quality that we now call entrepreneurship, taking charge and creating value as if the company were her own. As an entrepreneur, she's leading a company that is every bit as determined, focused, and nimble as the soccer star children she raised along the way.
00:02:47
Speaker
As the next guest on Builder Banker Hacker Chief, Kathleen Craig knows exactly how winding the path to success can be. But she's living proof that leadership isn't about winning a single match. It's about showing up ready to play for the entire season.
From Bullheadedness to Constructive Leadership
00:03:03
Speaker
Enjoy the show. Kathleen, I am so excited to have you on Builder Banker Hacker Chief. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Love having a conversation with you.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah. Anytime I can, I'm going to take the opportunity. A huge fan of you as a person and all that you're doing with your business and for the industry and everything. It's a treat to know you. I also think that everybody that's listening is going to be a treat for them too, learning from you. Thank you. To get started,
00:03:39
Speaker
When you think about the journey of who you are as leader, and you rewind the tape kind of to your early formative years, growing up, high school, kind of those timeframes, with the vision of hindsight that you have, is there anything that you look back on that has had an outsized impact on shaping you as a business person, as a leader?
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would say there's some intrinsic things, right? Like I realize now and when I think back on who I was as a youth, I was really bullheaded, right? Like once I decided on something, I was competitive and I was going to go for it no matter what, even when everything told me I should stop, which now again with the luxury of hindsight is wonderful for a founder, right? Because you have to keep going when. No matter what. Sometimes the signs say, what are you doing?
00:04:37
Speaker
But at the time, my poor parents just thought I was nonsense because I thought school was stupid, so I just got so-so grades. I didn't get the grades I could have gotten, according to my ACT and SAT scores. I should have been a scholar, right? So that bullheadedness was a struggle, I think, in raising me.
00:04:58
Speaker
and probably for my five siblings who had to deal with me and always have it my way and Kathleen's way. But I think over time, as I've learned to temper it and had people in my life willing to knock me around and guide that into more constructive, it's probably been a great trait to have, right?
00:05:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I know both of us have kids of our own now. And I always joke around the traits that I want my kids as adults, I don't want them to have as kids. It's exactly right. That is what's so interesting is you think back and you're like, Oh, no wonder I got in trouble for that. Or no wonder I was so obnoxious. Like I think back to
00:05:38
Speaker
Um, I have people tell me that they worked with me at like Outback when I was 18 and they'll meet someone from my company and they're like, Oh yeah, Kathleen was always the boss right at 17. What the heck? That's not a compliment. They don't mean it as a compliment, but luckily, luckily I had again,
00:05:56
Speaker
mentors and people around me and leaders and siblings that were willing to say, okay, you have some good qualities, you have some leadership.
Harnessing Resilience in Leadership
00:06:06
Speaker
But my goodness, if you could not offend everybody, if you could listen, that would be okay too, right? And I think that I'm really lucky because especially I think
00:06:17
Speaker
As a woman, it could have gone the other way. People could have just beat me up for how I was acting or being too confident or being too loud or too outspoken or too opinionated, and it could have shrunk me. But instead, I was lucky enough to have people who guided that energy versus trying to just pound it out at me, which was nice. Yeah. Well, one of the things that you touched on that I think is super helpful, at least for me to think about,
00:06:45
Speaker
is I think all of us have these natural traits, natural tendencies, natural characteristics. And they're not neither good nor bad. They just are. It depends on how you use it and how you shape it.
00:06:59
Speaker
that can turn them into superpowers or your Achilles heel.
Lessons from Great and Poor Leaders
00:07:04
Speaker
And so I love that you shared that this idea of being able to stick to something, grit, resilience, those types of things could also be bullheadedness, stubbornness, things that could get you in big trouble one way or the other. And that it sounds like through your career,
00:07:26
Speaker
And just growing up that you've had people to help shape those innate characteristics and traits to be used for the good and not to be stumbling blocks or Achilles heels for you. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, I think the compliment to that side of me is that I have a willingness to learn and I do always want to be the best at anything. So in order to be the best at everything, you have to listen, right? And you have to be open to learning and hard feedback.
00:07:55
Speaker
So that is a really nice counteract to turn to that, if that makes sense, that allowed me to hear when people said, woof, said that in a different way or done that. And then the other thing I think that I've been blessed with mostly great leaders in my life, just great, great leaders that I wanted to emulate, that I think many times I thought I was emulating even when I wasn't. But then really, honestly, I've had
00:08:20
Speaker
one or two really bad bosses too, and that willingness to learn and realize you don't want to be like that and how your traits could take you in that direction were also pivotal, right? It was horrible at the time. I hated having bad bosses or bad coworkers. We all do, right? It's not a fun situation to be in, but in hindsight, especially with some of those traits we just outlined, if I hadn't experienced it as a direct report,
00:08:47
Speaker
I think I could have created that culture for other people unknowingly, unknowingly of how it feels to be not listened to and not heard and not feel valued and respected on a human level.
Connecting with Team Members: A Leadership Essential
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. The lived experience brings it to life in a way that reading a book or just hearing about it just can't really
00:09:14
Speaker
emphasize exactly what you could do differently.
00:09:18
Speaker
Absolutely. I've always had leaders that asked me about my day or my home life right back when I was young, my parents, for example. And it wasn't until I had a boss who came in and didn't say hi to any of us and didn't say goodnight to any of us and didn't connect on that human level that I realized how important that was, that it wasn't just lip service or it wasn't just something you do. It was a critical piece of leadership and that connection.
00:09:48
Speaker
and why it felt different, right, in the workplace and culture. Yeah. So I have a question. So if you think back to like your teenage years and some of the shaping of
00:10:04
Speaker
helping you to figure out what works or what doesn't work. I'm curious, is there any particular story or any particular mentor that kind of comes to mind that helped you that kind of stood out as like, oh, oh, okay, now I get it.
Leadership Insights from Zingerman's Founders
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think working, I was just so blessed to work for Zingerman's for Ari and Paul, who are the co-founders there. They grew a little deli in Ann Arbor, Michigan to a multi-million dollar multiple company business in Ann Arbor. My team goes there. I bring them into consult with us and, you know, they took someone who was 21 and put me in a management role at 21.
00:10:46
Speaker
And I was definitely rough around the edges but they saw my like my heart and my intention. Right which I do care about people genuinely I do care about kindness I do want to treat people well they saw that they took me on as a manager and they were just willing to have the hard conversation.
00:11:03
Speaker
and say things in a way that I could hear. I remember one time going up to Ari in the middle of a shift. This was in the restaurant business. I went up to Ari in the middle of a shift and I said, why? Why won't this person just do what they're asked and why can't they do their job better? And he said, everyone did exactly what they were supposed to do. I wouldn't need you. We wouldn't need managers. Go get it done. And then another formative
00:11:33
Speaker
watching him in the restaurant because he would go around and fill waters for folks. A lot of times people thought he was like our special needs busser, not the founder of this organization. So there'd be times he'd be filling someone's water and someone would say, Hey,
00:11:51
Speaker
Hey you, I need a manager like something's wrong I need to talk to a manager. And instead of saying well I'm Ari and I've literally wrote the book on service literally published author. He would come get me my 22 year old self and be like here's Kathleen she's the manager she'll take care of you and that humility.
00:12:11
Speaker
was also such a great example to me, right? In my early years and how to balance leadership and ego and position power and all those things with just the right thing, right? And the right thing for the customer and not embarrassing someone, right? That that's not gonna help the situation. We're just really powerful. Yeah, I love that. One of the big things that I always try to live up to is to let my leaders lead.
00:12:41
Speaker
And just what a powerful example that is. I mean, he's literally the owner of the company, of the restaurant. And he's like, this person asked for the manager. I'm going to go get the manager so the manager can take care of this because that's their role, not mine. And then of course, just the empathy that he was able to show that, hey, if I say I'm the owner to this person,
00:13:09
Speaker
that might make them feel bad or humiliated and that's not the type of experience. I mean, just wonderful lessons in there. Now, I know that as you mentioned, published authors, service, amazing businesses, I'm sure you have one or two other nuggets that you would just love to share with us that have stuck with you from your time there at Zingerman's under Paul and Ari.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So Ari was great. I got to work with him most closely. But because Paul generally goes and opens the new businesses and then moves on, most zinger zinger knots or zingerman employees don't get to work with Paul as much. But because I opened the Roadhouse, their full scale restaurant, I actually got to work with Paul our first year. And seeing him in person and seeing the way he operates,
00:13:58
Speaker
was amazing. I'm not saying I emulate all that he does, but the amount of giving and selflessness I saw from that man was something to behold. The first time I met him, an hourly employee went up to him and said, hey, Paul, I can't make rent. Can I have 100 bucks?
00:14:21
Speaker
and I was witnessing this going, what? Why would she even think to go up to the front? This is just crazy interaction on so many levels. Without missing a beat, without asking when will you pay me back or anything, he just pulled out his wallet and handed it to her and that was the end of it. That was just the end of the conversation at least that I witnessed.
00:14:43
Speaker
And I
Supporting Employees for Better Performance
00:14:44
Speaker
just was blown away. I was blown away by that willingness to help his hourly employee on such a human level. I just had never witnessed something like that. And it has stayed with me to this day, right? If my employees are struggling, if I want to be a resource, I want to be someone that they come to, right? Because if they're struggling at home, they're going to bring that into work and they can't do their best work.
00:15:12
Speaker
This anecdote is not about cash handouts to your employees. It's about seeing the whole person. Is it worth a hundred bucks to help move a human that you care about from stress to peace? In reality, if you help your employees make that transition, they will be better positioned to help move your clients from chaos to comfort or from anxiety to trust. As an executive, you set the tone for the entire organization in these situations.
The Value of Real-Life Experience in Education
00:15:42
Speaker
And that's not to say that you should dispense with accountability or giving people the opportunity to solve their own problems. That's part of the nuance. You just need to ask yourself, is this a moment to build trust and honor the messiness of the human experience?
00:16:01
Speaker
And it's something that I feel lucky the board I've surrounded myself emulates that as well. And I've noticed you start attracting those type of people. My board always asked me, how's your personal life? How are things going? Because if home isn't going well, work isn't going to go well. So yeah, those were those were just amazing moments that often left me with just my mouth open going, what did I just watch? What did I just witness?
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah. During this time, I know one of the big questions that a lot of people who aspire to leadership have is balancing real life work experience and educational pursuits. So I'm curious kind of at this time of your life when you're working at Zingerman's, you're a younger professional,
00:16:45
Speaker
Where did you kind of find that balance between professional education versus real life working experience and how those decisions you think have influenced kind of where you're at now?
00:16:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, I did the typical, I graduated high school and I went straight into college, right? I did pretty typical. I did much better in college than in high school because I was studying business and things I actually cared about. But I still, I don't know, I just had this desire to work and achieve and I didn't feel that from school. And so I left school as a junior.
00:17:21
Speaker
and was working, right? I was already making a good salary. I was making a good living that I started raising my family. My husband was doing the same. And so I sort of abandoned school, right, to work and to achieve that way. And then it was interesting, I was at the bank and I was put up for promotion by my boss. And the HR director, sorry if you're listening to this, but if the HR director
00:17:50
Speaker
wrote on the promotion, right, overview, high school diploma. And I remember going, what? I'm like, I'm a senior in college. I have three years of college. High school diploma, I don't like that, right? And it felt really, you know, almost offensive to me, right, that he didn't give me any credit. And I realized at that point I needed to go back. So I actually went back.
00:18:20
Speaker
in my 30s for myself, right? Because I was like, oh, wow, that bothers you and you need to finish this up. There wasn't really a reason monetarily or otherwise, but it was something that was important to me. So while I had two kids, yeah. I was just going to say just to fulfill that accomplishment, that thing in your life.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, so while I was raising my two kids who are high level soccer players, starting the company and working full time at the bank, I finished my degree and finished that last year, which took me three years, of course, right? Because I could only take one or two classes at a time, but then finish that degree. And I have to say, finishing the degree as an adult
00:19:05
Speaker
gave me such a different perspective on 18 year olds going straight to college and taking gap years and having experience because I got so much more out of those classes, being a professional and an adult and having work experience than I did out of any of the first three years of college.
00:19:25
Speaker
If that makes sense. So when I hear 18 year olds now say, Hey, I'm thinking about working for a year. I'm thinking about doing this before I just go right in. And it's not right for everyone. I encourage it, you know, to the ground. Yeah. Just do it. Right. Yeah. Do it. Go experience life. And then your degree will make sense and be a part and an aid and an education on what you're trying to do, as opposed to just a checkbox.
Evolving Educational Perspectives in Leadership
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And this is actually a common theme that we've had with a lot of our guests in Builder Banker Hacker Chief. The amount of non-traditional educational pursuits as part of actual work experience and integrated into work experience rather than something separate has become quite a theme, which I think is super interesting to be able to look at, especially for people from our generation.
00:20:14
Speaker
where I don't know about you, but it was go to college or you're going to be destitute. The end all be all was you need to go to college and life will be great. If you don't, life won't be great. You'll live under a bridge. Yeah, that's pretty much the expectation. I love that the narrative has changed quite a bit.
00:20:36
Speaker
in recent years, but I've been super struck by the amount of leadership currently in our industry that has taken those non-traditional paths for very, very strong effect in their growth and who they are.
00:20:51
Speaker
Absolutely, and it's a huge investment too, right? Oh, absolutely. But the money you're going to spend, and these kids, and they really are right now having a 21-year-old and a 15-year-old, 18 is a kid. They're still children in a lot of ways. Go in and invest 20,000 to 60,000 a year, not knowing exactly what they want to do or even have an idea of what they want to do for that investment.
00:21:17
Speaker
is interesting and something I'm glad to see is changing and evolving.
Career Transition from Restaurants to Banking
00:21:23
Speaker
Absolutely. In that conversation, you touched on a little bit some of the transition. I do want to back up and talk through some of this transition. My guess is that the majority of the people who are tuning into Builder Banker Hacker Chief weren't necessarily expecting this restaurant tour background that you've had.
00:21:45
Speaker
What happened? How did you go from that into banking? My career has been so weird. It felt normal at the time, but in hindsight, so odd. My husband and I met in the restaurant business when I was 17 and he was 20, and we were both in the restaurant business. Again, I was at Zingerman's Roadhouse, and he at the time, I don't even know. Was that Outback or P.F. Chang's or some big corporate?
00:22:10
Speaker
Our daughter was coming up to being five years old and going into kindergarten. And I realized we normally left for our work day at two o'clock or one o'clock right when she'd be getting home from school. And nothing about that felt good, right? And we worked the weekends, right? So when she was having weekends off, you know, we'd be at work, right? The busiest days, the holidays. And so I just realized one of us needed to, you know, make a different decision.
00:22:39
Speaker
And so I, not easily, and I wouldn't say I was this clear in any way at 25 years old. I just knew I was unhappy. I knew I needed to do something, but I didn't know what. So I went to Paul, who I've mentioned a couple of times, and I said, hey, Paul, I think I need to leave. I think I need to do something else. And again, just a great sign of leadership. Instead of saying, no, no, you have to say, he said, okay, great. He said, what do you want to do?
00:23:08
Speaker
What are you thinking of? I said, I don't know, I need something that can balance family, like banking. Bankers work nine to five and they have holidays off.
00:23:21
Speaker
And I'm good at math. That was my reasoning. That was my justification. I was like, how much I thought about it. And he said, OK, well, I'm on the board of directors of the bank. I said, I know. That's what I'm asking. And so then he went, and according to the lore, Todd Clark, who was the president at the time of the bank, how he says it is Paul Witt mafia style and vouched for me and put his name on me and said, you should hire her.
00:23:50
Speaker
I went interviewed at the bank for a bank job right with no degree coming from the restaurant business you know twenty something years old and that's how that that's how that happened and what a blessing that the bank. Was working with singerman's on the time at customer service so they wanted someone in house that knew the singerman's culture and singerman's customer service.
00:24:12
Speaker
So they literally gave up part of their billboard advertising budget to create a position for me and hired me in as the client, I think at the time, client success specialist or client experience officer or something like that. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. I'm curious as you... First off, it's really cool that the bank was looking outside of the industry to learn things and how to get better and stuff like that.
00:24:41
Speaker
as you made that transition from a restaurant to banking in that client experience officer position, what were some of the things that you found that as a newbie to the industry, you're a little shocked at that they weren't doing, and what were some of the things that you found most applicable? Yeah, absolutely. So I think customer service at that time
00:25:08
Speaker
And this is the true of any industry. Everyone says they want to give great service. But I was so impressed with a bank, as you said, going outside because it had become a little stagnant. And especially with people's money and banking, there was this perception of
00:25:22
Speaker
Well, we can't do anything, rules are rules, fees are fees, your money is your money, we can't be creative. Does that make sense? Like the creativity of customer service have gone out of it? And this bank was working with Singerman's to be more creative. And they put together a committee that they let me lead with my boss, you know, co-chair. And that committee came up with this idea, no, you're right, we can't give someone free money because they call in complaint, like you can give someone a free appetizer, right? Two different things.
00:25:52
Speaker
But what could we do? Okay, remember that story Kathleen told about Paul giving an employee $100 to make rent? That was a judgment call that Paul made based on a host of factors, including the resources at his disposal.
00:26:08
Speaker
As a banker, Kathleen had to take the principle of that interaction and reapply it to the banking sphere. Instead of focusing on the limitation, she thought creatively about how the bank could honor its policies and honor the experience of a disgruntled consumer. Especially in a regulated industry like banking, it's easy to fall into a pattern of saying we can't and letting the matter drop. But what separates the great companies from the average companies is the question,
00:26:37
Speaker
What can we do to make it right? Or what can we do to elevate the experience? Well, we put together a box, we called them CARES boxes, with gas gift cards and local coffee gift cards and piggy banks so that we could have a box of goodies to make it right. So our equivalent of free appetizers and just some really creative things that I don't think
00:27:05
Speaker
would have come out of just a group of bankers, but a group of bankers plus this customer service guru company coming together to be creative was really a fun thing to be a part of and witness and see a bank trying to lead in that way.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah. And now the flip side of that question, I'm curious if there were, if you could think of any experiences where the contrast in these two different cultures really just boom, came into a collision, if you will, and then kind of how that was resolved, because I'm sure, I'm sure it happened. Yeah. Um, so we mentioned to me being bullheaded like bull in a China shop. So I came from the restaurant business where I mentioned Ari
00:27:46
Speaker
worked side by side with me pouring water. So I wasn't hierarchical. I had never worked in an organization with an org chart with seven tiers deep, where you didn't just talk to your boss's boss without going through your boss. So there was definitely culture shock there. And just learning how organizations that are much deeper work.
00:28:12
Speaker
So that was interesting, highly regulated, right? But that using regulation is, I mean, acknowledging regulation is really important, right? Critical. Get it, right? None of us want to get in trouble. But it almost felt at that time like regulation was used as an excuse to not innovate and move forward.
00:28:36
Speaker
if that makes sense. And so that was interesting. And so many of these kind of walls I ran into and trouble I got in along the way at the bank made me I mean, that was when I really started realizing through having some great mentors that
00:28:53
Speaker
entrepreneurship was in my blood and I was really behaving as an intrapreneur, which ruffled feathers, it upset people, it got some people really excited, some people wanted me fired, right? But realized that, you know, I had that skill set and my mentor started pushing me, you know, you could do this, you know, you could do this outside of an organization.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah, what were some of those things that you started doing kind of from that? So you embraced this idea, I'm guessing, of entrepreneurship. And you're like, this is actually probably one of my strengths that I need to lean into. How did that start manifesting itself while at the bank? And how did you harness that while again, in the four walls of the bank?
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, so they had written this role for me, which was exciting because I got to make it up, right? I didn't have any direct reports, but yet I had influence on all of these other departments, right? That I was trying to help move forward and improve customer service and improve technology on.
00:29:57
Speaker
So it was interesting because I went from client experience officer to the VP of E services. So I continued to write because that's how I came in. I felt that I had permission, whether I did or didn't, I felt I did to continue to kind of write my own roadmap and write my job descriptions and write what I wanted to do. And so at that time, I really glommed on to the term entrepreneur.
00:30:21
Speaker
And I loved that because you can be an entrepreneur in the company you're in and still have a salary and not all the responsibility of a founder. So I glommed onto that. My mentors were like, you're really an entrepreneur. And I said, yeah, entrepreneur is perfect and great because I can make money. I can be in the four walls of safety and still be innovative.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is. Once you actually pull the trigger to be a full on entrepreneur, that's always an interesting thing to do without security and salaries, etc. So getting some experience. Yeah, I was the daughter of an entrepreneur. So I knew I knew the ride.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah. Anyone that sees your background, and we're going to be touching this in a little bit, you end up as an entrepreneur in the fintech world. I'm curious, was there hesitancy or was there a willingness to jump into that based off of seeing your parent going through that?
00:31:26
Speaker
Because I've heard it both ways. Yeah, hesitancy. No, thank you. Absolutely not. I'm not going through that, nor am I putting my kids through that, right? You know, the up and down of salary and having money and not having money and having to make payroll, you know, those different things. I had, I went into founding a company of it kicking and screaming, right? I knew it was my calling. I knew I wanted to do it.
00:31:52
Speaker
But it was it was hard for me to take that leap because of what I had witnessed. Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. How you worked through that personally, because I mean, if we just kind of go up a little bit higher, I think there's a lot of people that find that.
00:32:11
Speaker
There are strengths and passions that they can clearly see, I need to lean into this. But through experience, through maybe people pushing them down, maybe just witnessing other people doing it and struggling it, there's this, I don't want to or I can't. And so there's this cognitive dissonance. This is what I'm passionate about, but I don't feel like I should do it because of learned experiences of some sort.
00:32:36
Speaker
Fear, for me it was fear. Yeah. I'd love to hear because like I said, I know there's a lot of people that struggle with that. How did you make peace with that? How did you work through that in your life?
00:32:52
Speaker
Yeah, I dipped my toe in. So I found a way to do it in a path that felt comfortable to me. So I had this idea for a kids app, a kids mobile banking app, we called it Banker Jr. eventually. But at the time, I had this idea for kids banking app because my son was three. And one day he came in and he grabbed a penny out of my hand that he found in my closet and he went and put it in his piggy bank and he made all these noises.
00:33:17
Speaker
And at the same time I was at the Fiserv conference and Jeff Yabuki was saying, there's going to be an app for that. There's going to be an app for that. So I had this idea for product and I thought, and I was driving to work and I thought I would do it as part of my job for the bank. And as I was driving to work, I went, what if I did this as a company? What if I did this idea that I have on my own and then licensed it to the bank?
00:33:44
Speaker
And so I went to the bank, I got permission to do it on nights and weekends, right, offline, and that it would be mine and I would own it. You're listening to the moment when Kathleen makes the leap from entrepreneur to entrepreneur by realizing that she could create even more value by building something for herself.
00:34:07
Speaker
Now, it's not unusual to hear stories like this from founders, but what you often hear is how the magic spark of the idea eventually turns into a vicious power struggle between all the parties involved. Kathleen used foresight and pragmatism to avoid that pitfall.
00:34:23
Speaker
Shortly after she got permission to launch her idea, she also got that permission in writing, including the terms of her ownership. That seemingly small act of clarity saved her from immense conflict when her project picked up momentum and some people at the bank noticed the business potential. It's good to ask for permission. It's better to get it in writing.
00:34:48
Speaker
And so I found a way to do it in a way. And again, I was transparent. I did all the right things. I checked all the right boxes. And I could do it in a way where I still had my cushy bank job and salary and save while dipping my toe into entrepreneurship.
00:35:05
Speaker
But then I got myself busted again. This is why you have to have mentors willing to tell you the real deal. I had mentors saying to me, what are you doing? You can't be one foot in and one foot out. Yeah. What are you doing? You have to commit one way or the other. And so I had people willing to say that to me over and over and over until I could hear it and take the full risk and jump in with both feet and go full steam ahead.
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah. But the takeaway, or at least one of the takeaways that I'd get from that story is that the way that you were able to work through this conflict between a passion of something that you feel like you should do, but fear because of whatever, is that you set
00:35:56
Speaker
limits, you set boundaries that you were comfortable with and you didn't move past those until you're ready to go to the next one. Now, it does sound maybe some pushing and cajoling happened at some point in time because we all need that. We do need to get a little bit into the unknown, but I love that idea that experimentation, I love the idea of boundaries, I love the idea of, okay, but what's the next step that I could take? I don't need to
00:36:26
Speaker
do the journey where I quit my job, go get an apartment, mortgage my home, and put everything on the line to do a startup company. Here's a different way that I could do that that works for me, works for my family, and works within the boundaries that I need to set forth. I think that's a super powerful lesson.
00:36:46
Speaker
I love that and I love the way that you're saying that because certainly I didn't realize I was doing that at the time. But that's a beautiful way to say it because the other lever I had and the other pull that I had was my two children, right? And knowing how much of my youth my dad missed.
00:37:03
Speaker
I wasn't willing to do that, right? And to sacrifice being at their soccer games and driving them to practice. So even once I jumped two feet in, I had to find a way to make this path my own and a way, as you said, with boundaries that worked for me and my family.
00:37:21
Speaker
And I think as a result, my company has gone slower than others if we're on the same race. But now that my kids, again, are 15 and 21, I don't regret a second of it because my company has gone slower because I put those boundaries in place. And I did drive them to soccer rather than work a 15-hour day. And then I worked again once they went to sleep. I did those things. But at the same time, now they're
00:37:51
Speaker
one's gone and one's getting ready to leave. And I don't have those regrets, if that makes sense. And now that they're older, I'm able to put in the million hour days. So it's just the other side of it. Yeah. Well, and I also wonder, this idea of your company going slower, how much of that is
00:38:14
Speaker
a fear that you have because of the decisions that you made to spend more time with family versus reality. Because just from an outsider in looking at the trajectory of your company and how successful you've been, I mean, it's a fabulous success story that honestly inspires me, especially we have some similarities in our companies.
00:38:37
Speaker
You started it within a bank. I spun out from a bank and seeing some of those trajectories. So I think it's great that you had those boundaries and that you lived without those regrets and you kind of used those rules to make sure that there wasn't something that later on you would question like, did I actually do this right?
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah, because I would have rather erred on the side of my family and the things and the time I couldn't get back than erred on the side of the company. And I hear you, right? Again, who knows what really happened and if it went slower or faster or as fast as it could. With that said, I think empowering people to make those decisions is huge because I do think, especially in the startup world,
00:39:25
Speaker
there is a culture of more hours is more better. And if you don't work all-nighters and you don't work every weekend and you don't have those battle scars, then you're not working hard enough, right? And you're not the right type of founder, whatever that means. And I think in order to have diverse founders and more women and parents as founders, women and men, we need to break down some of that stigma and empower people to make those choices and those decisions along the way.
00:39:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think both you and I have witnessed more of that acceptance than there's ever been before. In fact, a lot of the hustle culture or this idea that founders and the founding team all have to do nothing but eat, live, and breed their companies has now become a stereotype of one that people make fun of and make TV shows about it. That's actually probably a little healthy.
00:40:23
Speaker
to be like, that is a caricature. That is not reality because reality is that founders are people and they have multiple facets of their life.
00:40:33
Speaker
to be able to move forward. Not that we don't want, sorry to cut you off, I apologize. No, go ahead. Not that we don't want employees that care so much about the organization that were willing to work late nights or willing to work weekend. My team is full of those folks. With this launch, I had to reschedule this wonderful podcast because we were doing a launch. My team probably all worked 80 hours that week. We all worked late nights, we were all on together on slack huddles while into the wee hours till we were falling asleep on huddle.
00:41:03
Speaker
So not that we aren't willing to do that, but the culture that that's necessary all the time and that that is your badge of honor. I, just like you, I'm so glad that that's changing and adjusting and recalibrating because I don't believe, especially for developers, for example, there is such a law of diminishing returns. When you make people work a million hours, the number of mistakes and everything else that happens is, it's not a culture I want or want to reward.
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can personally speak that some of the best ideas that I've had for product innovations or strategies oftentimes happen while on the soccer field watching my kid
00:41:47
Speaker
or on a vacation where I actually have some time or space to think. Thinking about integrating work into our lives rather than it taking over our lives, I think is a powerful thing that all positions, you're going to be able to see greater benefit. Absolutely. I completely agree. I know that you have some really specific leadership lessons
00:42:17
Speaker
for people as they're starting up companies in complicated situations. Seeing as that you were working at the bank, on the side you were building this app, you
00:42:31
Speaker
we're hoping or expecting the bank to license it and offer it as part of it. And then later on, I'm sure, you know, and then I'm going to let other banks offer this, right? So this is all just, I mean, there's so much complication here. I would just love to hear if you have any specific lessons or stories that you have that, again, has just kind of helped you become the leader that you are today.
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah. So I think the first one is realizing where you're building and who you're building for. And that, so here's my example, community bankers in the Midwest were nice, right? Nice, nice, nice. So when I was coming up with this idea, I of course went like every entrepreneur and you go talk to potential customers and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this. Would you buy this? And what did they all say to
00:43:23
Speaker
Of course, we love it. Such a good idea. Yes, definitely. Go for it. Of course we will. Okay, here's what I'm thinking for pricing. Yes, that sounds fair. Yes, yes, yes. So then you take your risk and you go and you name your company and you get your LLC license and you're like, yes. And then you invest your money in developing it and getting it ready. And then you go back to same banks and say, all right, the product's here. We're ready to buy. And they're like,
00:43:52
Speaker
Oh, well, that's going to be a priority for 2026. Sorry. That's on our three-year roadmap. Your company lasts for three years. So I would say this happened to me over and over again in the beginning, both with customers and then also with candidates, people that wanted to work for my company or wanted to invest in my company.
00:44:17
Speaker
It always sounded like a great idea until push came to shove, right? Or again, with employees, I hired almost anyone that was as excited about my company as I was. I wasn't discerning. I didn't realize what an amazing thing I was building and that I could be discerning, if that makes sense. And so there were just a lot of lessons in
00:44:39
Speaker
niceness doesn't mean yes and doesn't mean money is going to hit the bank. And niceness doesn't mean right fit that I had to learn over and over and over again until I really actually accepted the lesson. And now it's a really good one because I do that with friends who are even thinking of a new product. They're like, yeah, people are going to buy this. I know 10 banks that are going to buy this. And I say, okay,
00:45:07
Speaker
Yeah, make sure because telling you yes and writing a check and signing a MSA are two different things. Yeah. I love that. That is a powerful lesson that everyone should take. Like you said, new business launches or new product launches, it's absolutely true. I think the other thing that's interesting is the regional differences as well, as well as industry differences.
00:45:34
Speaker
because you and I both work with financial institutions all across the United States. And Midwestern bankers are different than Northeasterners, which are different than those out in California, just in regards to culture and
00:45:51
Speaker
and their willingness to be nice, or what some people would consider nice versus direct, where some people might consider that rude, where other times it's like, no, they're just being direct. That's normal. Yeah, I try to, every time I'm speaking to institutions, I say, you are going to nice.
00:46:12
Speaker
fintechs out of business, right? You have to just tell them yes or no. And I know that seems harsh. And I know that it's hard for you and it's uncomfortable for you because you like me and I like you and we'll probably go out for a drink after this, right? But I need you to tell the real honest truth if it's a no, because especially their timeline, that's the other thing is a bank's timeline. Their horizon is so much longer than ours, right?
00:46:37
Speaker
And so those are those are interesting lessons to learn as well right that. What feels urgent to me is years out for a financial institution yeah across the spectrum cuz i just because i'd love to give context for the people listening across the spectrum when you watched. Your company plinket the first product was banker junior is that right.
00:46:59
Speaker
Yep, and the company was called HT Mobile. And it's called HT Mobile. Yep, after Haley and Tyler, my two kids. Nice, I love it. And then you did the product Plinket, which is a savings program for consumers to be able to help them save, right? And now you have a third product out in the marketplace, which is a bank's ability to do a high-yield savings account generally. The reason I wanted to bring it up is because
00:47:29
Speaker
You and your company have now had that opportunity to go through three iterations of finding strategic product market fit. And it sounds like you've applied some of those lessons initially for Baker Jr. as you've continued to build out your product set. I wonder if you have any other lessons, leadership lessons that you have
00:47:50
Speaker
that you kind of have picked from going from your first product launch to your second product launch to your third product launch so that we can learn from that, from that hard earned wisdom that you've gotten through experience.
00:48:01
Speaker
Absolutely. And I did not come up with this on my own. I got told this early and I didn't listen as fast as I should. But getting out a product that's not perfect faster, making sure people will buy it and getting it out to iterate is better than spending more time and making it perfect, whatever that quote unquote is.
00:48:24
Speaker
A lot of software developers call this approach to product development agile in contrast to the waterfall process that dominated the early years of computer engineering. Remember going to Office Depot or Circuit City to buy the latest version of a program on CD? Those products were often coded with little user feedback or market exposure with years between releases. The agile methodology applies to more industries and products than software though.
00:48:53
Speaker
If you hear someone refer to an MVP or minimum viable product, they're talking about the version of a product or service that demonstrates the core features you envision. Usually the stuff you thought that customers would buy is very different from what they actually buy. And sometimes your best idea doesn't appear until you've made contact with users in the wild and watched product market fit in action.
00:49:22
Speaker
faster is better, right? Within reason and regulation and making sure everything's compliant and all that great stuff. But I've seen this mistake and I made it where I wanted it to be so beautiful and so perfect and have no bugs, which no software does, right? And so I held back and I held back and I held back. And then I also invested, right? There's the time to market and then there's also the investment of doing that.
00:49:46
Speaker
And so then to even make a return, you're just prolonging how long it's going to take to get a return. And if you get those kind no's, those slow no's that we were talking about, you can really put yourself in a situation, a cash flow situation that's not ideal. Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. It is funny.
00:50:08
Speaker
some of the most important lessons that we learn are things that people have told us for years, but we need to live it before we believe it. Absolutely. And then when you live it, you say, oh, that's what you meant. Oh, thanks for trying. It's just like with your parents, right? You find yourself saying everything your parents said to you, to your kids, and you go, oh, mother. Oh, darn it. They were right.
00:50:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'm waiting for the day that when my kids are in their 40s and they're like, man, my dad, I thought he was a moron, but he actually had a lot of wise things to share with me. I just didn't realize it. It could happen sooner than 40s. I will say my daughter's in college and she calls me and tells me really how she tells it, though she doesn't actually compliment me. She tells me a story she told a friend about me, which is a backwards compliment. And I take it and I love it.
00:51:03
Speaker
That's awesome. That's awesome. Getting products out to market, not letting perfect get in the way of progress, getting real decisions where people actually have to write checks and sign on contracts,
00:51:26
Speaker
What is the minimal amount that I need to put out to solve the specific pain that we have? These are all different ways that I think people talk about this, but I think in the end, that's really kind of that second lesson that you just shared with us, which is so impactful for anyone.
00:51:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Being then willing to walk away and retire. Banker Jr. that we've talked about two years ago, 2022, my team challenged me that the tech had been built six years ago, which is an eternity for software. We were either going to have to do a whole rebuild or sunset. That was hard as a founder because that's your baby, that's your product. My initial reaction was, of course, we're just going to rebuild it.
00:52:11
Speaker
You know, of course we'll just rebuild it in the code. And then when I took those lessons we just talked about and really looked at the ROI and looked at what it would cost to rebuild it and the difference between banks saying they want a kids app and actually putting pen to paper and money in my bank account to get them that product, we actually made the really hard decision to sunset it. And it'll sunset at the end of 2024, but it was completely the right decision.
00:52:39
Speaker
We're really proud of what it did and what it accomplished and how many kids it helped, but being willing to sunset and walk away and make those hard decisions are important too.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah, I can only imagine how hard that is, especially because it was the thing that started your whole company and started your journey. One thing that I'd love to pull on a little bit more is the two things, the conversation that your team had with you to be like, Hey, I think we really need to look into this. But then the question behind the question is, is how have you built a culture
00:53:20
Speaker
where people on your team are willing and desirous to have those hard conversations with you, to be able to challenge you in that way. I'd love to hear anything that you have to say about that.
00:53:34
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I warn everyone when they come to interview for the organization, and especially if they've seen me out and about at industry events, then they see me as someone that's nice and bubbly. I say, yeah, all that is true. And I do lead with kindness. That's our first core value is kinder than necessary that we borrowed from our friends at Duo. That's our first core value. With that said, I believe directness and honesty is kindness.
00:54:01
Speaker
I think passive-aggressive, I think keeping truths from people is the meanest thing and the most damaging thing you can do in a relationship. And I believe that to my core and it makes it hard, I think, to work with me and for me, but it also really establishes a great deal of trust, both directions.
00:54:19
Speaker
And so we've been doing that since the beginning, even before we had core values that were written down, where I'm direct with you and you're direct with me, and we attack process, not people. So from the beginning, my developers are willing to say,
00:54:37
Speaker
That bug was completely me. It's because I did this. And they know that they are safe and that I know I asked an exorbitant amount from them that they can't possibly do in a day. And that if they make a mistake, they're just human. And we're going to just attack what happened, how we can prevent it from happening again, and how we can improve the process and not. And so
00:55:00
Speaker
from the beginning when there was two or three of us, we've behaved that way and we've grown that way. And so people either weed themselves out or we have a pretty harsh system of weeding people out if they can't operate that way.
00:55:12
Speaker
Yeah, make the make the culture and expectations so widespread and loud that people that one people know what they're getting into before they get into it. And once they're into it, there's a model for them to follow. Absolutely. This is just the way we do things here. And if you don't like it, that's fine.
00:55:31
Speaker
Absolutely. But if you do, trust me, it's the way that we've been successful and will continue to be successful. That's powerful. Thanks for sharing that, Kathleen. I just love that going from a restaurateur to a banker to a FinTech founder,
00:55:49
Speaker
you pulling these lessons of culture building, of leadership from all three of very different industries, very different dynamics that they are competing in, but there are these common themes and common threads that kind of pull throughout. So I love that you're able to pull from all of that as you've built your company and built out your culture.
00:56:13
Speaker
And then as you know, then you have, you have these stories that do become part of the fabric, right? Everyone knows the reason Banker Jr. is getting retired is because Brian called me, you know, after hours and said, Hey, we can't keep doing this. You cannot keep selling this. It's not sustainable the way it is. And I give him full credit for that, right? And for seeing what I couldn't and pushing me, pushing me to hear him.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah. And it's celebrated. And so then it becomes when everybody hears that, they're like, I want to make that call one day. I want to be Brian. I want to be able to have those types of conversations. Yeah, that's great. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from Bernie Brown, which is related directly to what you're talking about. Clear is kind and unclear is unkind. And that just always has always stuck with me.
00:57:05
Speaker
in this idea where so many of us think that being nice is not saying hard things, but in the end, sometimes it's the most cruel thing that you could do. I agree. I agree. And again, this also comes from my formative years, and it's probably happened to almost everyone that's listening. How many of us have been on the other side of a conversation with either a loved one, a spouse, a sibling, or a coworker where they're at the exploding point?
00:57:33
Speaker
right? They are so sick of your behavior and they explode at you and they list the last say month or six months or six years of behaviors at you.
00:57:46
Speaker
that receiving that is so hard to do well, because I don't know about you, but the whole time I'm thinking, oh man, why didn't you tell me six years ago at one or even at two, and we could have saved you all this agony and all this trauma, because I wasn't trying to hurt you, right? That wasn't my intention. And we could have had a dialogue and adjusted so long ago to not get to this point, right? And to not get here.
00:58:14
Speaker
Yeah. How many relationships could be stronger, right? And not as damaging if people are willing to lean into that. Yeah. And again, with kindness, right? We don't go after each other, right? But it's, hey, I mean, how we approach it here was with a lot of questions. Hey, when you said that, tell me more about what did you mean by that? What were you trying to say to me when you said that, right? Leading with questions to try to have a deeper understanding is interesting. Yeah.
00:58:42
Speaker
Segueing a little bit into some of our favorite questions that we'd like to ask within Builder Banker Hacker Chief, we've had some great conversations about your own personal lived experiences, mentors that you've had, experiences that you've had that's helped shape you who you are.
00:59:03
Speaker
A lot of people in business, they talk about business books that they like and what help teach them these different leadership principles. And there's plenty of people that do that. I'm curious about books that you might recommend to listeners that aren't business books, that maybe they taught you something or maybe they were just fabulously interesting and entertaining.
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. I read two to three books a week. It's the only way I can fall asleep and turn my mind off. So I can't fall asleep to TV, so I read to fall asleep. So I read everything and anything. You know, I read
00:59:44
Speaker
Michelle Obama's autobiography to Unbroken was a really powerful one that gave me a different perspective on my great grandfathers. Again, like many of us, there was generational abuse right down the line of my family that are interesting to dive into. I find it interesting to study.
01:00:04
Speaker
So Unbroken and hearing about the experiences of folks in the war was an interesting one that actually taught me a lot outside of the book, if that makes sense. And then I just like fun things too. I mean, I'm a founder that was much education and things as I do. I also really, you know, I watch the Housewives and stuff, right? Sometimes I just need to turn my mind off and my husband comes in and says, how do you watch this trash? And I say, because I love it. Because
01:00:33
Speaker
I love to have some guilty pleasure. I'm not a bring drinker. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I have to have some way to escape, right? And so some trashy TV or just a silly book are good ways I do that too.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yeah. Well, going back to that idea of having a fully integrated life, I think if you think of that idealistic or stereotypical entrepreneur, I eat, live, breathe my business. And maybe I also care a lot about family and maybe like physical health. So like I should always either be with my family, working out or building my business. And those are the only appropriate things for me to do. Anything that I do for myself or anything I do for entertainment or anything I do to escape,
01:01:15
Speaker
Why do you need to do that? You need to work, work, work, work, work. I love that you do that. It's also something I personally invest my time in as well, is having these outlets for escape and maybe going to a different world or seeing experiences from someone else's point of view can be so refreshing and rejuvenating.
01:01:37
Speaker
No, absolutely, but I think it's why men have sports, right? And that's the other thing we're seeing is as workplaces and leadership tables become more and more diverse, finding that common ground you can chat about at the beginning of a meeting, historically, when it was all men around the table, even men that didn't care about sports, like my dad doesn't care that much about sports, but he would always know because he had to have those conversations. So tell me about the Super Bowl, blah, blah, blah.
01:02:01
Speaker
Now, you know, for a long time in my early career, I had to know about sports just to participate in those conversations. Now I'll walk into a meeting and be like, who saw the latest Housewives or, you know, who saw the latest, you know, Oprah podcast or Brene Brown podcast. Right. And we're willing to have conversations about other things that we're seeing, which is nice.
01:02:20
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely seeing a lot more diversity. The golf course has not gotten out of the way of business, but there's been a lot of other things that have been pulled in as well. As we wrap up, we always like to ask this question. Is a leader born or is a leader made?
01:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question. I wouldn't pretend to know, but in my experience, I think you're born with intrinsic qualities, but leaders are then made, right? I think anyone can lead in the way that makes sense to them. And I definitely, the older I get, the more I realize there's not one type of leader. Charismatic and extrovert doesn't
01:03:04
Speaker
necessarily make leaders. Introvert and quiet doesn't not make a leader. So I think there's intrinsic qualities, but that willingness to put your neck out there, to be brave, to speak up, and to take charge can all be taught with whatever other intrinsic qualities you have. We're all given raw material. It's how it's shaped and how you shape it. Yeah, that's exactly right.
01:03:30
Speaker
Great. Well, Kathleen, like I said from the beginning, I knew it would be a treat for everybody listening to hear your stories and learn about your life and your leadership journey. And I'd say I absolutely loved it and learned so much. So thank you so much for taking time out of what is a very busy time in your life to chat with me.
01:03:51
Speaker
Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. You're one of my favorite humans in FinTech. I'm so glad that AFT brought us together and now Jamf FinTop. I feel lucky to know you. So thank you for the mentoring that you've given me and helping my company along the way. Absolutely. Same back at you.
01:04:09
Speaker
Ray Dalio, the famous entrepreneur and founder of the investment firm Bridgewater Associates, says this about the importance of embracing reality, truth or more precisely an accurate understanding of reality is the essential foundation for any good outcome.
01:04:26
Speaker
Listening to Kathleen's journey, she talks about the bullheadedness of her youth and the vital role that candor plays at Plinkett. She also talked about how many people now see her as this friendly, bubbly person and may have a hard time imagining the unsettling level of honesty that she brings to every company meeting a decision.
01:04:44
Speaker
Both things are true. Kathleen didn't eliminate the assertive part of her personality. She learned how to use it for greater effect. She learned that warmth and kindness aren't mutually exclusive to pragmatism and truth-telling. The kindest things we can do for each other is speak the truth and love, trusting the other person to see reality and embrace it. We can't embrace it for them. And that's where the real growth happens for leaders and their teams.
01:05:12
Speaker
As always, we are grateful for you and all our listeners. Kathleen shared so much wisdom and insight, and that's what the show's all about. You'll find the link to Kathleen's book recommendation in the show notes. You've been listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker Chief, a podcast produced and distributed by Zsuite Technologies Incorporated, all rights reserved. I'm your host, Nathan Baumeister, the CEO and co-founder of Zsuite Tech.
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This show was co-produced, written, and edited by Zach Garver. Sound engineering was done by Nathan Butler at Nimble Whip Productions. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to leave us a review or share the episode. This helps other people to find our show. You can also listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, and Spotify.