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Kelly Brown – The perpetual joy of banking, protecting people, and pouring yourself out as a leader| Episode 10
241 Plays8 months ago
Welcome to episode ten of Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief! Joining me today is Kelly A. Brown, CEO of Ampersand Incorporated and a Senior Advisor at Patriot Financial.
On this show, I’m unpacking the stories, decisions, and influences that make people successful leaders. And when Kelly realized she wanted to start a bank, it wasn’t to make a pile of money, it was to protect other people and their money.
My name is Nathan Baumeister; I am the Co-founder and CEO of ZSuite Tech and the host of this podcast.
Kelly Brown leads from such a deep sense of purpose and passion that no matter how much success she achieved, she doesn’t lean back into a state of comfort or coasting. That’s not to say that she’s burning the candle at both ends – her focus is on relationships, not accolades. Kelly’s joy and enthusiasm have been forged through a life of trauma, difficulty, and determination to maximize every opportunity.
The most recent company she founded and leads, Ampersand Incorporated, offers treasury management and loan solutions to organizations with specialty deposit needs. They’re creating a bedrock of deposit stability in an industry that was rocked by the bank failures of early 2023.
This episode is a testament to what you can accomplish if you’re willing to stay humble, teachable, and hungry for opportunity. Kelly Brown’s life and career are paving the way for a new generation of people to enter the banking industry – making it a safer for everyone.
Resources:
Kelly’s recommendations:
Author: Robert Greene
Book: What Men Don’t Tell Women About Business (Chris Flett)
Connect:
Recommended
Transcript
Breaking Family Cycles and Identifying as the 'Black Sheep'
00:00:00
Speaker
I think it's important and for people that have, you know, maybe families or some history there that was not positive as they were growing up. And for me, it was breaking the cycle. I was always called the black sheep in my family. And I used to think that was a bad thing. And actually a black sheep and a dysfunctional family is a good thing because you're trying to break the cycle of abuse or the cycle of, you know, neglect or whatever the case may be.
Introduction to Podcast: 'Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief'
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi, my name is Nathan Baumeister, and you're listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief, a podcast where executives from the world of finance and technology share the story of how they got where they are and the decisions that made them who they are. I'm looking for hidden moments of truth and sacrifice, wisdom and folly, and what it's like to navigate the treacherous waters at the helm of a growing company.
Kelly Brown's Journey from Challenges to Leadership
00:00:55
Speaker
I want to do all that so that together we can learn from their journey and use that insight personally and professionally. In episode 10, my guest is Kelly Brown, CEO of Ampersand Incorporated and a senior advisor at Patriot Financial. As a child, Kelly was told she'd be lucky to get a job painting cars at a Detroit factory. Today, she's a three-time founder, a senior advisor at a private equity firm, and her banking track record defies comparison.
00:01:24
Speaker
She survived intense childhood trauma, and she's made it her purpose to create safety for others through her passion for banking and her vulnerability as a leader. Given her background and initial ignorance of the banking world, Kelly could have put up a thick smokescreen to fool employers and coworkers, trusting that she'd figure things out later. Lots of people have advanced their careers this way, including joining industries where they have no credibility. That's not Kelly style. She doesn't need to pretend anything.
00:01:52
Speaker
Her success is built on reputation of humility, curiosity, and tenacious concern for her team and clients. I don't know if I've ever spoken to a leader who loves the banking industry so deeply and brings such a vibrant perspective. While you listen to this episode of Builder Banker Hacker Chief, I want you to imagine that you're sitting next to Kelly at a Green Bay Packers game, and she's unloading a lifetime of wisdom in between touchdowns.
Overcoming Childhood and Financial Struggles in Banking
00:02:18
Speaker
Because that's what's about to happen.
00:02:25
Speaker
Well, Kelly, I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you today on Builder Banker Hacker Chief. Thanks for joining me. Yeah, thank you. One of the biggest reasons that we started this journey with Builder Banker Hacker Chief is to give those that are currently in leadership positions or aspiring to be in leadership positions stories on how people who have been successful in their careers, how they've gotten there,
00:02:51
Speaker
And so digging into that, we'd love to start with discussing a little bit of your formative experiences kind of when you were growing up on what helped you or what experiences helped to shape you into who you are today as this amazingly successful, multi-time founder, multi-time CEO, investor. I mean, you're doing it all, you've done it all. What has helped you kind of get to this point?
00:03:19
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate that. I would say I'm not traditional, right, in the sense of when you hear people that have had similar backgrounds, especially in banking or finance, that it's a kind of a storybook of a great college, you know, partying in college, having a great time, meeting a ton of people, networking and all of that. I didn't have a background that reflects that. In fact, born and raised in Detroit, Michigan,
00:03:45
Speaker
Dad was a factory worker and my mom was a, what was called a paraprofessional, so I was like a helper in a classroom for severely disabled children.
00:03:55
Speaker
And so came from very modest means. Dad laid off a lot, obviously being at Ford Motor Company in Detroit back in the 80s. So not an easy situation financially for my family. And certainly not a home that encouraged a college degree or getting an education. In fact, for many years I was told I'd be lucky to get a job at the plant.
00:04:22
Speaker
And so, seeing my dad come home with covered in paint, because it was a paint plant, and coughing a lot from all of the paint fumes and things like that, I just knew that that was not something I wanted to do.
00:04:39
Speaker
God had given me some talents that I wanted to explore and I wanted to do more with my life. So I've always had that in me, that I wanted to have a better life than the one that I came from as a young child. Not only from a financial aspect, but my home was not a positive one. So I know a lot of people don't talk about this, but I do.
Mentorship and Steady Progress in Banking Career
00:05:03
Speaker
Severe child abuse as a young girl, both physical and emotional.
00:05:09
Speaker
And so I think when you're in an environment that is volatile like that, it makes you want to get out of that environment and it puts a fire in you to want to escape that type of situation. And so for most of my young childhood, it was seeking protection, finding a safe place, finding something that made me feel happy and banking by the time I got to be a young adult, banking really was the avenue for that.
00:05:38
Speaker
was what brought, that made you feel safe kind of when you were introduced to that. Yeah, so when I was 19 years old, I had gotten kicked out of college and I had gone to a university in Michigan, actually had a scholarship to play violin at a very prestigious state school in Michigan and decided to go to a smaller school with some friends of mine.
00:06:02
Speaker
It was a lot of fun. It was way too much fun. It was, you know, no, no parents anymore. No guard rails and no discipline. And I wasn't given that type of discipline personally as a kid. I was given a different kind of discipline, so I didn't know how to apply that effectively. And so I ended up getting kicked out. I think I had a 1.2 GPA at the time.
00:06:24
Speaker
and had racked up at the time about $25,000 worth of credit card debt by the time I was 19. Discover had sent me a credit card in the mail as a student at the university. And with no understanding of financial acumen or personal fans, it was very easy to get into debt, buy pizzas for everybody and beers and all that kind of stuff. So nothing to show for it. And so when I exited my college career at that point,
00:06:53
Speaker
had to go into the workforce, I had to pull down like about three jobs in order to make the payments on that credit card debt. And that was really overwhelming as a young person. And so when I was 19, I went into the bank to cash my check from one of my jobs. And I at the time was so undisciplined, in fact, that
00:07:12
Speaker
I couldn't keep a checkbook. This is old school now. I had to get money orders to pay my rent, to pay my car payment and things like that because I wasn't disciplined enough to have a checking account. So at the time, there was a teller that said, Kelly, you should think about a debt consolidation loan. And I didn't even know what those words meant. And I said, I don't know what that is. I probably won't get approved for that.
00:07:38
Speaker
She said, go talk to the personal banker. I did. She took a lot of information on a pad of paper and basically was doing hand underwriting at the time. There were no computers at that point and sent me on my way. Never thought about it again until about maybe three weeks later, I got a phone call that Diane at the bank wanted me to come in. I went into the bank thinking I did something wrong again. She said, you're approved for a debt consolidation loan.
00:08:08
Speaker
What do you mean? And she said, we're going to pay off all your credit card debt with this one loan, and we're going to use your car as collateral. And you're going to pay us $208.16 every month until this is paid off. And you're going to never do this again, right? And she maybe cut my credit cards up at her desk. And she, in fact, was the protector of me. She was looking out for a young girl, just like the teller did, that no one else did for me. And so I forever am grateful to those bank employees for doing that.
00:08:41
Speaker
This is the origin story of a banker, not just any banker. As you'll hear later in the episode, Kelly went on to lead in multiple banks, then she founded her own bank. Today she teaches at a banking school and advises a private equity firm that focuses on financial services companies. That's the power of influence that a single person can yield.
00:09:03
Speaker
To see the potential in a person, to give her a chance to create the safety she needs to succeed, it's a human connection. To be clear, that's not the power of money or loans or financial literacy, although each of those things can trigger huge transformation.
00:09:20
Speaker
The story of Kelly Brown wouldn't be what it is today if that teller and that personal banker hadn't looked at a young girl's struggles and offered her a chance to rise above the circumstance.
00:09:37
Speaker
And the great news is I not only got out of debt, I've never been in debt since. And I talk about this to young people all the time and even adults that feel like the weight of credit card debt, what it does to you and it's scary and it can be something you can get out from under. So that was really formative when I was in that
00:10:01
Speaker
18 to 22 years old. But that really pointed me in the direction of what they did for me, I wanted to do that for other people. Because if they had not done that, I would never be where I'm at today. It changed the entire trajectory of my life, those two bank employees.
Setting Boundaries and Building a Supportive Network
00:10:21
Speaker
And I'm forever grateful to them. And I'm forever thankful for all bank employees, for anyone working in a teller line or a personal banker or a small business banker.
00:10:31
Speaker
the fact that they can help everyday people like me changed my life, it's a pretty awesome thing. Yeah. Well, there's so many things that I love about that story. I want to dig into a couple of them, but the first one that comes to mind is you had two people, not just one person, see you.
00:10:53
Speaker
and take the time to get to know you and figure out how they could help you, how they can serve you, and then took action in doing so. And what a beautiful example of what could be done with human connections that we have here. So much so that it's inspired the rest of your career from there on out. That's just beautiful. Yeah, thank you. It has.
00:11:22
Speaker
I've been at a lot of different functions and speaking engagements and so on. And oftentimes you always hear the good, right? You hear all of the positive. I have a great family. I came from a great upbringing. My life is rainbows and butterflies. Mine wasn't. I just didn't have that experience. And those employees of that bank literally changed my life. And I have now
00:11:47
Speaker
have a career that I'm able to do the same thing for others and working with either junior achievement or local school board that I sit on, working with kids in personal finance, you know, going to universities. I started a banking school at the Marquette University here in Wisconsin.
00:12:04
Speaker
not just for the reasons of we need leaders in our community banks and we need a place that can teach servant leadership to some of these bankers as they go out into the workforce, but to also just remind people and these young people that there are people that can inspire you and that don't come from a background that is traditional and you can accomplish anything. And sometimes you just need a helping hand and that's all you need. And that's all I needed was somebody to point me in the right direction.
00:12:32
Speaker
Absolutely. And I'm sure there are several people who are listening right now who, you know, fall into this unit, not to say that they had your exact experience, but they look at the goals that they have and what they want to achieve and how they want to achieve it. But they sit and they say, you know, I don't have the experience. I don't have the connections. Perhaps I'm carrying very difficult things that I grew up with, like you have.
00:12:58
Speaker
What advice would you give them, at least from your own experience, on being able to move past that and creating belief in yourself to go after those dreams, even if you don't have a model that it might not even be possible?
00:13:17
Speaker
I would say the first thing and the most important is learning how to set boundaries. And what I mean by that is if you have people in your life that aren't encouraging you to be the best you can be and helping you with your journey, perhaps there are people that are verbally abusive, they're negative, they're causing you emotional duress. You have to learn how to create boundaries in order to
00:13:42
Speaker
not have those people in your life. The minute I started realizing that setting boundaries to those people, how it affected me in a positive way, that's when things started to change. And so for me, setting boundaries is the key. And then surrounding yourself with people that want to build you up, not tear you down. And so you can imagine being a woman in the banking industry with no college degree,
00:14:11
Speaker
with no banking experience. I couldn't balance a checkbook. I didn't know what a debit or a credit was. When I made the jump from a retail employee working at Cole's department store, and my husband at the time saying, what are you doing this for, Kelly? You're smart, you're capable, you work hard. And I said, well, I don't have any experience. I don't have a network. This is what I know. I know how to work in a store.
00:14:37
Speaker
And he said, well, if you could do anything in life, what would you want to do? And I said, I'd want to start my own bank. And I want to do for people what those, that teller and that personal banker did for me. And he goes, well, how are you going to do that working at Cole's department store? And that was a, that was a really, and I remember that like it was yesterday, it was like a very defining moment. I'd never quit a job in my life. I'm a very hard worker. And to quit a job,
00:15:02
Speaker
to do something I'd never had experience in, or to get someone to hire me was the biggest hurdle. But I did, the next day I walked in and I quit my job. And I applied on the Wisconsin Job Net, which is like the precursor of, you know, a zip recruiter. Back in the mid 90s, it was like some hokey, I think it might still exist, I don't know, but looking for bank jobs. And
00:15:30
Speaker
There was a position for a branch manager at the time it was a bank called First Bank in Milwaukee, which is now a US bank.
00:15:39
Speaker
And I went in and I got an interview because I had management experience. And I interviewed with a woman named Mary Ellen DeHaven, who another person in my life, I am so forever grateful for her. She was head of HR. And, um, you know, she's retired now, but she was head of HR for all of US bank. She worked her way up as well. And she, uh, interviewed me for this branch manager position. And I, you know, she's like, Kelly, I can teach you banking, but what you have, I can't teach.
00:16:08
Speaker
So they hired me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be working at a bank as a branch manager. And she says, well, we're going to hire you as a personal banker first. Yeah, hold on. Let's just take one step at a time. So.
00:16:22
Speaker
It was a very scary thing to all of a sudden now be a personal banker at US Bank when I didn't know how to balance my own checkbook really. I mean, I wasn't in debt at that time anymore, but I still didn't understand banking. I just didn't.
00:16:39
Speaker
The, the, at the time, you know, when I think about, this was in the mid nineties, right? When I think about, you fast forward to today about recruiting people like me or how do, how do banks or, you know, community, community banks recruit, where, what do you look for? You know, there's sometimes looking past the obvious, um, is a suggestion
Embracing Learning Opportunities in Banking
00:17:01
Speaker
that I would make for any employer, you know, kind of look past the obvious and work experience, I think is a great,
00:17:07
Speaker
I'm a perfect example i had no college degree but i was a really hard worker and very dedicated and driven and so that's why mariel and did what she did with me at that time so hired me as a personal banker four months later i was the branch manager within a year i was managing multiple offices for them.
00:17:25
Speaker
And I thought I was going to wear the crown of US Bank at that time for the rest of my life. I absolutely love US Bank. I still to this day love US Bank. It's a great place. And they treated me very, very well. And so that's what gave me my start. But that was the story there.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, well, the one thing that I'd love to call out here because we kicked off this portion of the conversation asking what advice would you have for people that might find themselves in a similar situation that you found yourself in, perhaps power, powerlessness, hopelessness, not sure how to start or where to go. The thread that keeps coming up in all these conversations is you
00:18:06
Speaker
actively surrounded yourself with people who would ask things like, Kelly, what is your dream? Or who are actively open to trying to figure out how to help people. So being intentional about who you let into your life and setting those boundaries. And it's amazing that as you put yourself out there with your husband, with Mary Ellen, with, you know, I'm sure the various other folks that you're able to work at with US Bank, you
00:18:35
Speaker
You moved yourself from one situation and put yourself in a different one. You moved yourself from one network into another. Yeah, I tell people all the time, no one is going to come and tap you on the shoulder and say, we're going to give you this opportunity. You have to raise your hand and ask.
00:18:52
Speaker
You have to be intentional about these things. I was intentional about what I was doing. I wanted to learn everything I could at the bank. I wanted to, even though I was a personal banker, what is it like to be a teller? Can I learn that? What's the vault? How do I, you guys balance that every day? Can you teach me that?
00:19:08
Speaker
I learned everything about the branches, then multiple branches, then acquisitions, anything I could get exposure to, I inserted myself. I did not have anyone say, Kelly, why don't you go do this? It was me always asking to learn. For me, the lesson there is resilience.
00:19:30
Speaker
How do you get from a place of hopelessness to a place where you see the light at the end of the tunnel? You have to be able to drive that yourself. You have to be able to put yourself out there and be okay with a no or rejection. We're not going to allow you to do that, but teach me something different. It's almost like you have to push your way through to the front of the line. No one's going to give you the spot at the front of the line. You got to push your way through.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah.
Founding First Wisconsin Bank and Trust
00:20:00
Speaker
Well, there's also this great balance in the story you shared of how you got into banking and then progressed in banking because you took a big chance saying, yeah, I'll apply for a branch manager position. I don't have the experience, but I'm going to try it. I'm going to go for it. So you have the gumption, if you will, the resilience, the willing to put yourself out there and be told no,
00:20:25
Speaker
And then I love the side of Mary Ellen's story because she saw the potential and said, okay, this is not the position for you yet. But I see the potential in you and you need to start here. And instead of you taking that and rejecting and saying, well, you know, I know how to manage things. I'm going to be a branch manager. It's like, no, I'm going to listen to you. Yeah. You say I should start as a personal banker. I'm going to give that a shot, but you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to learn everything I need to know.
00:20:53
Speaker
about that and about that and about that and you're able to expand your sphere of influence and your ability to help and serve others. I love the example on both sides because the people that I have seen flourish most in their careers will typically put themselves in situations where they are very driven but humble.
00:21:17
Speaker
And the leaders that they're with are very driven to put them in the right positions to get the experiences that they need, even if they're asking for something else. So that's great.
00:21:28
Speaker
So as you grew up in US bank, I remember you said, though, your dream was you wanted to start a bank, right? Yes, I did. So you got your first banking job, you absolutely killed it, got more and more responsibilities. What happened to your dream after that?
00:21:51
Speaker
Well, it's so funny because when I tell people I was part of a, you know, a bank startup or a de novo, as they're called, it's like, how in the world do you start a bank? I'm like, yeah, that was the question I asked. And I so I mean, just, you know, full disclosure, when I when I left, I left US Bank and I joined a regional sized bank, I think the bank was about a billion
00:22:12
Speaker
billion two maybe asset size here in Wisconsin. And again, raising my hand, I wanted every opportunity to learn. And so started a Treasury Management Division, worked and started a private banking division, created different fee income strategies, just being creative and thinking outside of the box. I saw all of these, and no offense to you, but I saw all of these guys around me
00:22:36
Speaker
as commercial lenders, which again, I was fully credit trained at US bank, but it was very uncool to be in retail. If you were in retail, you didn't understand commercial and it was kind of like you just stay there and that's what you do. So at the regional bank, I took an opportunity out of retail to start a treasury management division per the request of the president. And it was wildly successful. It was myself and another person and
00:23:03
Speaker
It was wildly successful. We were very good at what we did. And that bank eventually sold. And the bank that wanted to buy that bank, of course, wanted me to stay. And all of the lenders in the group, it was like, I went to Marquette. I went to UW. I went to all of these great schools and had education. The bank president of the regional bank at the time had said to me, Kelly, why don't you have a degree? And I said, well, now I have children.
00:23:31
Speaker
I just don't have time. I would love to. I just don't know how to do it." And he's like, well, the bank will pay for it. We see something in you. We want you to be successful. And so I did that and got my bachelor's degree when I was working at the regional bank and then ultimately got a master's degree as well in behavior and management.
00:23:51
Speaker
and started a PhD program shortly thereafter that, but then got very busy starting a company that I couldn't finish that track, but loved education and realized how important it was. So when the big bank bought our regional bank, wanted me to stay, I just kept thinking to myself, I'm generating so much revenue here. I know what value I bring. Why am I going to just go and do this again
00:24:20
Speaker
and be happy with status quo. So there was a lender at the bank that approached me and said, hey, would you ever consider starting a bank with me? And I didn't even flinch. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Let's do it. Tomorrow. Are you interested? It sounds fun. Let's figure that out. I think I was 28 at the time, something like that, 29 maybe.
00:24:40
Speaker
And so I'm like, well, how do we do this? He's like, well, we have to get investors. And so we went and we raised the capital with one investor and they fell in love with the two of us, the lender and me. And so then we built a team around us and we started First Wisconsin Bank and Trust. And it was an MBA on steroids in the banking industry, the regulatory
00:25:04
Speaker
Buying a bank charter in northern Wisconsin, stripping the loans and deposits away, bringing the charter down to Milwaukee, starting a bank from nothing. It was an unbelievable time to do that.
Strength in Vulnerability and Leadership Growth
00:25:18
Speaker
I mean, I don't think anyone could not make money at that time. This was in 2005-ish. Entrepreneurship is difficult in the best of circumstances, but very few people decide to make their first business a bank.
00:25:33
Speaker
The barriers to entry are higher now than they were when Kelly did it, but they've always been very high. Building an institution from the ground up takes an incredible mix of leadership and technical know-how. Kelly learned the business of banking firsthand and then expanded her toolset through education and hunger for opportunity. The passion and excitement in her voice is palpable. It's infectious. When you spend time with somebody who brings this kind of energy to their work, you want to participate in that.
00:26:03
Speaker
Not all leaders are able to do that, but the ones who can definitely get access to a much better talent pool and enjoy the benefits of long-term loyalty.
00:26:16
Speaker
And so it was a good environment to do a de novo or startup bank, but it was an unbelievable experience. And it was what I thought at the time, like, this is it. I've done it all. Like, this is, I started a bank and this is, yeah, it was really, really fun to start that bank. But that's how we got there. Yeah. Well, a theme I'd love to jump into a little bit, again, just coming back, tying some of these stories together and maybe giving some advice here.
00:26:46
Speaker
One of the things that you've consistently shared is your willingness to take a step into the dark, not necessarily knowing exactly how you're going to do that.
00:26:59
Speaker
You did it. I'm going to get into banking. I'm going to figure out how to manage multiple branches. Sure, I'll start a treasury management division. Of course, I could do commercial lending. What are you talking about, right? Now, the question I have is there's two lines of thinking that I've heard when people give advice. One, hey, if you're given an opportunity, fake it till you make it, just go after it. The other is understand your limits, understand your strengths, and lean into those.
00:27:29
Speaker
So I'm just curious as someone who has built their career, at least of what we've covered so far, of constantly when given an opportunity, hey, let's start a bank. Yeah, I've been. Your willingness to step into that darkness. I'm just curious like the balance between those two different schools of thought.
00:27:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really, really good question and one that I've thought about because I hear a lot of friends and networking circles always talk about imposter syndrome. Like, do I really belong here? And gosh, a lot of business owners feel that sometimes or leaders in companies where they don't feel they have the experience. I don't subscribe to fake it until you make it. I just don't subscribe to that. I think when you try to
00:28:13
Speaker
be someone you're not. That's when you get into trouble. So I am the first person that will ask questions. If I don't know, I ask. Even as a CEO of the company I'm at now or in private equity, which I play a part at Patriot, if I don't know, I ask questions. And I think questions are not a sign of weakness. I think it's a sign of strength in a leader. And so I'm constantly seeking the knowledge
00:28:37
Speaker
to improve and then taking that knowledge and applying it. And so for me, if I were to try to fake that or to pretend I know something I don't, I think it comes through as disingenuous and it just, it feels wrong. And I've worked with people that were faking it and you know when they're faking it, like you just know. And so I have a passion for this industry. I have a passion for what I do every day. I am
00:29:03
Speaker
When I say I am privileged to be in the banking industry, I mean every word of that. This industry has given me so much. I've given it so much and I will continue to do that. But I do it from a place of knowing where my shortcomings are and wanting to improve all the time. I am a constant seeker of knowledge. I will be educating myself, I'm sure, through retirement. Yeah.
00:29:27
Speaker
and maybe even finish the PhD program at some point. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It is funny that you mentioned that. I too love education and have thought many times like, man, if I didn't do all this work stuff, I'd love to just go to school all the time.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah, now I have a goal at some point to, and I'm not sure they know this yet, at the Graduate School of Banking here in Madison, Wisconsin, which is renowned around the world as one of the best banking schools, to lead and run that school would be just such a privilege to take my love of education and my love of the banking industry, bring them together for something really special. That would just be an amazing end of my career. Yeah, no, I love that.
00:30:15
Speaker
So the advice that I think I heard you say is say yes to opportunities, but don't fake it. Be eyes wide open on what you don't know, be humble, and seek the help, education, information, or maybe even team members to come in to fill the gaps of what you don't know how to do.
00:30:39
Speaker
100% all of the above. When I think back earlier in my career, when people talk at the bank about, well, there's a board meeting today. I didn't even understand the structure of a board. You know, what is a CFO? What is the CEO? I asked the question. I'm like, and I don't say it's a dumb, like, I'm not going to say to someone that I have a dumb question because it's not a dumb question. I think a lot of people make assumptions that people in certain positions just know these things. Well, they don't.
00:31:05
Speaker
So i'm always with my team or others that i work with or mentor it's like i preface a lot of this if i say i have a board meeting today i'm like do you understand how a board is structured let me teach you. Someone says how do i get on a board you know that's another one my first board position nobody came and tapped me on the shoulder and said kelly come join our board.
00:31:26
Speaker
It was I need to figure out how to get on a board. So how do I do that? I asked the questions. I called a nonprofit that I felt very passionately about and I said I am interested in serving as a board member. I'm not sure what that means, but I'd like to figure that out with you. And next thing you know, I'm on the board of a nonprofit and had never been in a board meeting before.
00:31:46
Speaker
and asked a lot of questions. And all of those little things have now culminated where I'm a director at a bank that's a $4 billion bank. I'm a school board director at a local school board. I sit on multiple boards. I mean, that experience now hopefully will help other board members of banks learn what questions to ask or how the structure is. And so it's asking questions and being vulnerable.
00:32:12
Speaker
Again, I think a tenant of leadership and being someone that you want to work with or work for is being vulnerable. We're all regular people. We all are sisters and brothers and moms and dads and maybe parents, and we're no different in that way. So being vulnerable, I think, is the key. Yeah. So one question I have, if you don't mind diving into this a little bit,
00:32:35
Speaker
going back to your upbringing in an abusive household where you didn't have that protection that I think people would expect or want from a home. But as you have grown in your career, you display an incredible amount of humility and vulnerability, which I could think would be somewhat difficult
00:33:05
Speaker
if you have a start where you feel like you could get hurt because you were. And again, I'm just curious what, what advice do you have for folks that again, might be in that situation because, you know, I, I was lucky enough that I did not grow up in an abusive home, but even I find myself, whether it's societal pressure or whatever, that vulnerability and humility as a weakness is kind of the typical narrative.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, no, I completely understand and can resonate with that. I think as someone coming from a home like that, dad was a Vietnam veteran and I'm sure PTSD played a big part in physical abuse to his children.
00:33:53
Speaker
I say to this day, I would rather take the beatings of my dad physically than the mental abuse that I got from my mother, which was far more severe because when you lay your head down at night as an adult, you don't have dad hitting you, but those words that you were told, you're useless, you're worthless, you're dumb, you hear those things over and over the rest of your life. So you have to learn how to bypass that and find
00:34:22
Speaker
yourself and actually start to believe that that's not true. And so for me, I think to be vulnerable and have humility, I think resonates more with every person. And when I meet people that have a persona that everything is rainbows and butterflies, I know that it's not. And I know that everybody has baggage, everybody.
00:34:49
Speaker
I don't know if it's a sister, a brother, maybe there's drug abuse somewhere, maybe there's different type of abuse. But all of us have been exposed to these types of things. It's how do you handle it? How do you move forward with it? And again, for me, ensuring that my boundaries that I create with people that I feel are either abusive or just not good for me emotionally, you have to learn how to create those boundaries. And it's not easy. I'm not here telling anybody that it's something that it's easy.
00:35:19
Speaker
It's what has saved me. And in reminding myself that if you talk to yourself in a negative fashion, if you start to believe I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not any of those things, that manifests. It will manifest into being afraid to take risks, to not put yourself out there because I'm not smart enough. So they're not going to like me or they're not going, you know, all of that
Starting American Deposit Management During a Recession
00:35:40
Speaker
manifests. And so for me,
00:35:42
Speaker
People always, you know, people, I mean, gosh, you're so confident, Kelly, you know, you're just you just exude this confidence. But that's not what that is. I am probably one of the least confident people, because I'm constantly thinking about those things. And I want to be a beacon of hope for other people. And so that means I have to present myself in a certain way. And that certain way is being humble.
00:36:03
Speaker
and being vulnerable and being just like them and being able to connect with them on a real level and I think that's why I was successful when I worked in banking because when I said across from customers it wasn't Kelly the banker smarter than you and I can talk about a HELOC and your loan debt to you know debt to income and your loan to value and it was tell me what's going on you know are you how's your kid how are your kids doing at college
00:36:27
Speaker
Are they struggling college is hard i got kicked out of college and all of a sudden you relate to people on a personal level.
00:36:34
Speaker
And, you know, customers come because people want to work with real people at the end of the day. That's what they want. And I've never tried to be something that I'm not. I am not an imposed imposter. I don't fake it. This is what you see is what you get. Nathan, the Kelly that you're talking to today is the Kelly that would have beers with you at a Packer game and high five and do all of that, which we did, by the way, this past, not you and me, but, um,
00:36:59
Speaker
know what I mean? It's like, and life is so short, it's finding the joy. And what is the, you know, people always say to me, you know, you seem like you're happy. And I would not say I'm a happy person. I'm a joyful person. Those are two totally different things. And happy, what defines your happiness? What brings you joy? What brings me joy is working in the banking industry, believe it or not, it is everything to me, it makes me
00:37:24
Speaker
proud. I just feel this level of I'm so privileged, you guys, to do what I do and work with the banks that I work with and the customers we have. And it is it is a pleasure every day to wake up. I've never since I've started in banking at First Bank Milwaukee, my first day at work, I'm not kidding. I have never gotten up one day and said, Oh, I got to go to work today. I don't feel like going to work today. I've never done that. Never.
00:37:52
Speaker
That is, this is how much I love what I do. Yeah, it gives you energy and it allows you to just... Oh my gosh, absolutely. And then doing it gives you more energy. I love that. Yeah. So going back to the timeline a little bit, so you said it was about 2005, you started a bank with this lender, you guys got investors.
00:38:12
Speaker
It was growing, things were going great. How long did you work on that bank? Because I do have to wonder because 2008, 2009 is coming a little bit after 2005. Yeah. Well, somebody said the universe seems to work in my favor on some of these things because December 31st, 2008.
00:38:29
Speaker
we sold the bank. And we sold the bank to the former CFO of the regional bank that I worked for that had been watching us, watching our success and said, oh, fee income, deposits, I want that. And then Kelly, you got to stay with me. And I'm like, okay, I'll stay for a year, buys the bank. Two weeks after he bought the bank, I called him up and I said, I don't know how I'm going to tell you this, I
00:38:54
Speaker
I can't work for somebody. I now have the bug and I can't do this anymore. And that's when I made the decision to start American Deposit Management, which again, people think crazy time. When you think of 2009, what was happening in our economy, the multiple bank failures thereafter in 2010, 2011 and 2012, it was the worst time to start a deposit aggregation firm.
00:39:22
Speaker
You might hear Kelly talk about the universe working in her favor and think, oh, that must be nice for her. You'd be missing the bigger picture. When you're out in the marketplace, focusing on your work, growing as a person, and taking risks, things do work in your favor. It comes from a trust and willingness to show up. There aren't any guarantees that things will work, but if you ask leaders about this dynamic,
00:39:47
Speaker
They will almost always tell you that you have to put yourself out there. And if you're aligned with your values, your passions, and your abilities, doors have a way of opening when you need them to.
00:40:03
Speaker
but it was the best time because for me, it's all about safety and going back to the word protection. So I built my career and my life has been about protection. I was seeking protection and now I seek to protect others. And that's why American deposit management was so important to me is because we were going to protect customers deposits. Yeah. So now you're a two time founder, right? So you did the bank and now you did the second company. I'm curious,
00:40:31
Speaker
Like most people, the craziness of starting a business is like, I did one, okay, I'm good. You're like, I've done one. Hey, I'm ready to do the next one. And just fast forward a little bit. Now you're onto your third one. But what was the thought process or what was the drive or what is it that compelled you to keep going and even do it differently this time?
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah, so we had the idea on this deposit aggregation model before companies, maybe some of the listeners know, Intrify or Promontory, before they were really in existence or doing any type of liquid cash product, we actually created that back in the mid and late 90s at the bank unknowingly for a large deposit customer. And so when I started to realize that we may have created something that could actually be something much bigger,
00:41:28
Speaker
That's that kind of what what sparked the idea to start American deposit management and so with we started that with $400 of paid in capital in February of 2009 and You know, you don't know what you don't know again. You jump in. I've never started a company. I've never been a CEO I've never done any I'm in banking and so it was head down sleeves up and
00:41:50
Speaker
figure it out. And hurdle after hurdle, bank failures left and right. How do we find depositors? How does this work? We ended ultimately grew that company to just under 100 million in revenue when it was sold in February of 2020, two weeks before COVID, another good timing that occurred at that time. But I just knew that there was nothing out there that protected customer deposits outside of
00:42:18
Speaker
the traditional, at the time, 100,000 of FDIC insurance. And if we could create something, I think we could really build something great. And so we did. Yeah. So you were there for about 11 years building that company before the exit. As you look at that story, I'm just curious, are there any standout experiences that especially help to teach you something about yourself or teach you something about leadership kind of on the second go around?
00:42:49
Speaker
I would say from a leadership perspective, leading through uncertain times economically, I mean, rates at that time were hovering zero to 25 basis points. Trying to build a business where it's a spread business, where you're taking a percentage of that or a portion of that was very, very difficult. And getting people to believe in what we were doing. So why would an employee want to leave a great job at a bank or elsewhere to come join me
00:43:18
Speaker
when it's uncertain. This has never been done. It's not tested. There's no operations manual that tells us how to do our job. There's no computer program that we can buy off the shelf to aggregate deposits. We have to build it all ourselves. Why would someone want to do that and not get equity in the company or not, you know, just be a W2 person?
Transition to Private Equity and Founding Ampersand
00:43:35
Speaker
And so for me, it was, I wanted people to believe in me. And I wanted to be, again, a beacon of hope for them to say, if you come and join me,
00:43:44
Speaker
I'm going to teach you everything I know. And no matter if you stay or if you end up leaving and you go to a bank, you will be the most educated bank employee that will have a richness of opportunity that no one can replace. So that was my goal. It was like, I want to teach everybody. I want to take everything I have in my head and I want to give it away as much as I can. And people followed. So it was, again, a privilege to run that organization for as long as I did.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, pouring into your team members of, I'm not here just to help you do your job. I'm here to give you everything that I know and can teach you so that you can do whatever it is that you want to do.
00:44:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not sitting in some ivory tower saying, you know, if, if I needed to hop on a call with XYZ, I'll do it. If I need to go, you know, wash the dishes in the kitchen sink, they'd see me doing it. You know, they would see me pulling statements for customers at month end. They would see me downstairs with operations doing anything. Again, kind of like when I worked at the bank, I want to know every aspect inside and out of this company in order to properly run it.
00:44:54
Speaker
and to be a person that anyone can come to and say, can you help me understand? Can you help me with my job? Can you teach me something I didn't know? And I can't do that if I don't know it. So it was just learning everything I could.
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's great. As you built that company, had a successful exit right before COVID, which is, yeah, right before the economic recession for the bank and then right before COVID. Yeah, amazing timing. I'm actually gonna start asking you for some of my stock market tips. I've heard that before.
00:45:33
Speaker
So after selling this, you had a little bit of a switch of a role again, right? Yeah, I did. Can you talk a little bit about this transition from being an operator to being an investor?
00:45:44
Speaker
I can. I stayed on with the buyer of my company for just around two years through COVID. Had to get the company through COVID, but if you cut my wrist, I bled red, white, and blue. American Deposit Management was my identity. It was my everything. It was my third child. It was everything to me. To leave that organization was not an easy decision to make. I actually was at the Acquirer B Acquired Conference in a speaking engagement there.
00:46:14
Speaker
and happened upon Kirk Wyckoff, who is the managing partner of Patriot Financial in Radnor, Pennsylvania. And he and I hit off on a conversation. He said, what you do at American Deposit Management, I'd like you to figure out how to help my banks.
00:46:29
Speaker
And so we worked together and his banks and got some funding to his banks and what a great group of banks that Patriot works with. It's just amazing. And after these discussions around their banks being part of American Deposit Management, it all of a sudden became very apparent that Kirk and I wanted to work together. And so he
00:46:55
Speaker
And I figured that out. And next thing you know, I am resigning from American Deposit Management to be a partner at Patriot Financial. And once again, when you talk about stepping into the darkness, I didn't know the first thing about private equity, like not the first thing about it.
00:47:11
Speaker
And I told Kirk that, like, what do I know about private equity? I'm not saying I can't learn, but how big is the hurdle here? Because what I understand about investment banking and private equity is you kind of, it's like a ladder and you got to start at the bottom and you got to kind of work your way up to the partner level. And again, it was, you know more than you think. And I can teach you what you have. I can't teach. So it was great. And I have to tell you,
00:47:39
Speaker
I absolutely love working in private equity. It is the best decision I've ever made. In all honesty, it's the best. I probably should have done it five or eight years ago, but I really love working as an investor.
00:47:54
Speaker
on that side. What do you love so much about it? What is it? What is it about it that really drives you? You know, going back to the two things, it's learning and teaching, right? So learning about all of our portfolio companies, and then working with them side by side to figure out solutions to really difficult problems and using my background and my experience to come up with
00:48:17
Speaker
suggestions on how to better improve or maybe it's a hiring decision, I can help interview them. The learning part comes from the deal structure, deal flow, finding investments. What are we looking for? What do our investors want from a return and what kind of businesses would we be interested in and that we feel, given the management team, given the budgets that they've put forth and given the past performance, can we see them hitting the hurdles that we need
00:48:44
Speaker
on the investor side and it's just it's it's kind of being on the outside not an operator anymore but being on the outside is someone different looking at the operators and saying is this the right people to be taking this you know you want to grow by 30% is this the right team to get you there and maybe it's the right team but you need a CTO or maybe you need a CMO or whatever the case may be
00:49:04
Speaker
having the ability to affect change is something I never thought I would experience. And it's not just one company anymore, it's multiple companies. So I find that to be very thrilling for me personally. Yeah. Well, one thing I'd love to get some of your thoughts on is it seems like there were two identities
00:49:32
Speaker
that you built for yourself as well as that you had within
00:49:40
Speaker
within yourself that you broke when you moved to become an investor. One you already mentioned is the American Deposit Management Company. That was your thing. That was who you were for so long. And the other is a driving operator of someone who's in control who literally told somebody two weeks after starting that, I'm sorry, I just can't work for you because I need to work for myself.
00:50:04
Speaker
So you have this identity as an operator, you have this identity tied specifically to this entity that you founded, and you walked away from both of those to become an investor. I'm just curious, how was that transition for you and what was helpful that made it successful and what was it that as you look back, you're like, man, I would have liked to have done this slightly differently. Because I think a lot of us do find ourselves in this position when we make these transitions.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah, it was humbling. You know, it's like, do I, who am I now? Right? Because this is, you're right. That is who I create. This was my identity. It was everything. And so I think the biggest hurdle that I had was I get my energy from others.
00:50:46
Speaker
And I get my energy from a team of people that I trust. And I think they get their energy from me. And you work off of that energy to create great results. Well, now all of a sudden, I went from having a team of 34 people, and now I'm at Patriot. And I'm by myself, in my den, in Milwaukee. They're all in Pennsylvania. And I'm like, this is really hard.
00:51:08
Speaker
Because A, I don't understand private equity and my team isn't here. What did I do? Did I make the right decision? I'll never forget, Kirk said to me, he said, Kelly, listen, you've joined the Yankees as a rookie.
00:51:26
Speaker
Don't expect to have a home run record the first year or two that you're here. You're here to learn. And so that gave me some peace, but at the same time, I'm antsy. I want to provide value. I want results. I want to win. I'm very competitive with myself in that way. And so when the bank failures occurred in March of 2023,
00:51:54
Speaker
And I saw that there was no national authority in the deposit aggregation space that stepped forward. You didn't see anyone on CNN. You didn't see anyone on Fox News. But I had been an authority in that space somewhat. But I sat back and I'm like, this is the time. This is when this company should have ballooned into something so much bigger than what I built. But I'm not there anymore.
00:52:20
Speaker
and made the decision at that point to pivot into a dual role of starting another company and becoming the national authority in deposit aggregation and creating something, again, that is a Patriot-backed company, it's a Jamf Fintop-backed company, but now we're gonna be the national authority. We will be the national authority in that area.
00:52:52
Speaker
Kelly worked her way to the top. In fact, she made the difficult jump from working as an operator to working as an investor. But then she saw a gap in the market and couldn't rest until she'd done something about it. So she stepped back from her role as an investor and started another company, Ampersand.
00:53:11
Speaker
Kelly Brown is working where she finds purpose and satisfaction, where she can make good on her personal value of protecting other people and their money. That's executive leadership at a whole different level. It's not about titles, prestige, or climbing the corporate ladder. It's about leading where you see the need.
00:53:32
Speaker
And so now I'm lucky enough again to have a foot still in private equity. So I still serve now as a, I think, what is my title now? I think it's a senior advisor and I'm CEO of one of our portfolio companies. The SEC doesn't allow me to be a partner in private equity and be a CEO of a portfolio company.
00:53:55
Speaker
For a period of time, I'm going to lean into the portfolio company and then at some point step back in my role as partner at Patriot full-time. Yeah, I love that. The story of Ampersand is just beginning. It is just beginning. As you jump into your third startup. Yeah, and it's an unbelievable story. It really is. That's amazing. We've hit the ground running with amazing success and so it's a lot of fun.
00:54:23
Speaker
Yeah. One of the things that I loved about the story of ampersand that you'd shared with me in some previous conversations, um, is how many of the people that you're working with are ones that you've built relationships with prior. So just going back to what you shared earlier, like I don't know why they'd come and work with me on this company that I'm just getting started at your previous company, but I'm going to pour into them like none other so that they can fly, right? So that they can do what they need to do.
00:54:50
Speaker
and obviously you created an environment that many people wanted to continue that process with you as they've come and joined you in ampersand too. Just a great testament to your leadership and the relationships you've built with those people.
00:55:03
Speaker
Yeah, again, I consider myself lucky to be able to work with such an amazing group of people and some for 22 years. I mean, our relationships go way back in our banking careers. So you build friendships that way, the trust, the loyalty is something that is so valuable to all of us. I mean, we all want people we can trust and people that are loyal to us.
00:55:26
Speaker
And I'm loyal to them. And so it's a pleasure and a privilege to work with this team. They are unbelievably amazing. They're the experts in this industry. And I can't imagine doing it with anybody else. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. As we wrap up a little bit, we've spent a lot of time talking about your professional experiences and the influences that it's had in your career and your growth trajectory and growth path. And there's so much richness that we've went through.
00:55:54
Speaker
You've touched a little bit on some of your personal life as well, both growing up with your parents, as well as, you know, it really touched my heart that one of the people that asked the question, well, what's your dream? You should go after it was your husband. So I'm just curious if there's any other things from your personal life that as you as you think through kind of the arc of your career and the story of who you are as a leader that you'd want to touch on as well.
00:56:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's important and for people that have, you know, maybe families or some history there that was not positive as they were growing up. And for me, it was breaking the cycle. I was always called the black sheep in my family. And I used to think that was a bad thing and actually a black sheep and a dysfunctional family is
Breaking Family Cycles and Instilling Positive Values
00:56:39
Speaker
a good thing.
00:56:39
Speaker
because you're trying to break the cycle of abuse or the cycle of neglect or whatever the case may be. And so for me, from that perspective is I look at where I came from and I want to make sure that my children don't experience any of that and I have to break the cycle. And it's something as a child of abuse, you have to think about that constantly. How I react when my kids make a mistake, right? How did my dad react? How did my mom react?
00:57:10
Speaker
How should I react? What would I have wanted as a teenager? I wanted to be respected. I wanted to be trusted. So I give my children what I didn't get in that. And my children are just amazing. I know a lot of everybody says it about their kids, but I really have some amazing children. My daughter's at Marquette Law School, my son at UW-Madison. They're not just smart, but they're kind. They're considerate. They're thoughtful. They're intelligent.
00:57:34
Speaker
And I've never had to raise a hand to them. That's just not necessary. We need to talk with each other more. We need to understand one another more. And we need to give grace to people that have made mistakes in our lives and give them an opportunity to apologize and show a different side.
00:57:52
Speaker
And I think by doing that, I've really surrounded myself with some really great people. And my husband of 25 years who has put up with me and all of this, and I couldn't have done it without him either. He has been the main reason why I am here today doing what I love.
00:58:10
Speaker
That's great. All right. So a lot of podcasts kind of in the business world, they talk a lot about business books or, you know, thinkers that have influenced them. So we don't want to tread on that on those topics because it's already done. Yeah. I would love for you to share if you have any any non business books that you'd recommend for people to read. I would tell you as an author, Robert Green,
00:58:40
Speaker
48 laws of power, the laws of seduction. Robert Greene is a New York Times bestselling author and every book that he writes I think is applicable to all of us both personally and professionally. I would recommend that to anyone. For women that are looking to break the mold, break the ceiling, I've never been the traditional
00:59:02
Speaker
person as a woman and especially the banking industry that subscribes to a glass ceiling, I just don't subscribe to that. But I do subscribe to understanding the industry or maybe it's male-dominated industry, it could be construction, it could be whatever it is. There is a book called What Men Don't Tell Women About Business. And when I read that probably 15 years ago, it really opened my eyes to
00:59:29
Speaker
you know, how to effectively move in a very male dominated industry. And it's about intelligence, understanding the business, knowing as much as you can, speaking with
00:59:41
Speaker
authority, having an executive presence, not being the one that brings the birthday cake to the CEO when he has a birthday. I don't bring cupcakes in. I don't bring birthday, I don't clean the kitchen unless nobody else is, then I'll do it. But some of these things are probably simplistic, but I think as women, we sometimes move into a certain role, but in business, you got to get out of that role and you have to think,
01:00:09
Speaker
genderless, not male, not female, you have to think business.
Recommended Reads for Growth and Conclusion
01:00:12
Speaker
And you have to think, how am I going to effectively get these people to know that I know what I'm talking about? And it's, you know, speaking with confidence and that executive presence. So that book, I can't remember the author, I think Chris Flett is the author of that book. That's his name, Chris Flett. So Robert Greene, any book by Robert Greene is a good one for anybody. And then Chris Flett, What Men Don't Tell Women About Business.
01:00:37
Speaker
Great. Well, we'll definitely put both of those in the show notes as well so that if anyone wants to get them, they can look them up. All right. So to wrap it up, we always love ending with this question. As you think about leaders, are they born or are they made? That's a tough one. I would have to say they're born. That would be my answer. I don't know if there's any gray area there. I think they're born.
01:01:07
Speaker
I think there's certain people that just have an it factor. That would be my answer. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing it so much. And there is no doubt that you have had just an amazing career of leadership, something that there's a lot of people early on in your professional career that saw that in you.
01:01:29
Speaker
and that you were able to flourish and make it happen. Three-time founder, investor. I mean, it really is. It's just an amazing story. So thank you so much for being so generous. Thank you. I really appreciate it. The screenwriter, novelist, and nonfiction author, Steven Pressfield, writes in his seminal work, The War of Art.
01:01:55
Speaker
The opposite of fear is love. Love of the challenge, love of the work, the pure joyous passion to take a shot at her dream and see if we can pull it off. Kelly's dream, all the way back in her early days, folding clothes at Cole's department store, was to start a bank. She had plenty of reasons to be fearful of where that dream might take her, but it's clear that everything about Kelly is fueled by intense love.
01:02:23
Speaker
She's a shining example to the thousands of men and women who might be considering a career move, a new leadership role, or starting a business. You don't need qualifications or perfect childhood to follow your dream. You need a willingness to jump in and learn. You need a love that can overpower your fear.
01:02:43
Speaker
The story of Kelly's abuse, struggle, and subsequent success has inspired countless people through her various companies, speaking engagements, and teaching work. I'm glad that Builder Banker Hacker Chief can share her story with you and all of our listeners. We've linked to Robert Greene's author page and the show notes in the Chris Flett book, What Men Don't Tell Women About Business.
01:03:08
Speaker
You've been listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker Chief, podcast produced and distributed by Zsuite Technologies Incorporated, All Rights Reserve. I'm your host, Nathan Baumeister, the CEO and co-founder of Zsuite Tech. This show was co-produced, written, and edited by Zach Garber. Sound engineering was done by Nathan Butler at Nimble Wit Productions.
01:03:30
Speaker
If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to leave us a review or share the episode. This helps other people to find our show. You can also listen on Apple podcasts, Google Play, and Spotify.