Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Craig Montanaro – Mowing lawns, confronting your parents, and building a team that gets things done | Episode 14
185 Plays5 months ago
Welcome to episode fourteen of Builder, Banker, Hacker, Chief! Joining me today is Craig Montanaro, President and CEO of Kearny Bank.
On this show, I’m unpacking the stories, decisions, and influences that make people successful leaders. Craig got an early start in banking, like at age five or six. Since then, he’s reached the top and brought a lot of people with him.
My name is Nathan Baumeister; I am the Co-founder and CEO of ZSuite Tech and the host of this podcast.
Having your father as a boss at your day job isn’t a guarantee of a long and happy career. Craig even got confrontational when he felt that his upward journey at the bank wasn’t happening fast enough. Thankfully, a trusted mentor stepped in and helped Craig reevaluate the situation.
Eventually, Craig moved into the Chief Operating Officer role and helped facilitate a merger with a much larger bank. And when the CEO of the larger bank was ready to retire, it was finally Craig’s chance to lead the organization.
Craig knows the business of banking inside and out. He’s got technical prowess and leadership experience. And he’s committed to empowering his team and letting them take chances and make mistakes.
As a family man and avid golfer, Craig Montanaro exudes the wisdom of a man who has been humbled by life and loves helping others succeed. Kearny Bank is big bank that has performed a miracle – it still feels like a small, community bank with a focus on personal relationships. This combination is a credit to Craig’s leadership and a testament to where Kearny is headed.
Resources:
Craig’s recommendations:
Book: The Match: The Day the Game of Golf Changed Forever
Book: My Life
Connect:
Recommended
Transcript
Career Reflections and Pivotal Moments
00:00:00
Speaker
And I said to him, you know what am I doing here? Where am I where am i going? I'm in the accounting department. I know how to do all these things, but what's going to happen to me? And he kind of spun around in his chair and being you know kind of the military guy that he he was. He just shot from the hip and he got up and he said, he said you don't want you don't want to work here? And I was like, well, where am I going? And he says, Where are you going? Okay. you know And I had been out of banking school already. So there were things percolating and I was getting more responsibility, but it wasn't fast enough for me. So he opened it up his side door, which was like in an employee exit. And he said, look, he's like, if you're not happy, he's like, there's the door right out on your own. He goes, I'll work it out with your mother. I'll explain to her what's going on. He says, but if you don't want to work here, good luck to you, pal.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:48
Speaker
Hi, my name is Nathan Balmeister, and you're listening to Builder, Banker, Hacker Chief, a podcast where executives from the world of finance and technology share the story of how they got where they are and the decisions that made them who they are. I'm looking for hidden moments of truth and sacrifice, wisdom and folly, and what it's like to navigate the treacherous waters at the helm of a growing company. I want to do all that so that together we can learn from their journey and use that insight personally and professionally.
Meet Craig Montanero
00:01:21
Speaker
In episode 14, my guest is Craig Montanero, president and CEO of Cari Bank.
00:01:26
Speaker
He is what you might call a banker's banker. His father was a bank CEO and Craig's been in the business since he was a small boy. He's done everything from cutting the lawns of repossessed houses to executing billion dollar bank mergers. You might think this makes him the sort of dyed in the wool executive who leads from a quarter office isolated from the needs of his team. But he's not. Craig understands that his number one job is to listen to his team, inviting their unique perspectives and abilities to the table. It's not easy to run a bank as successful as Carney while remaining accessible, humble, and focused on what really matters.
Leadership Philosophies
00:02:05
Speaker
The fact that Craig came over to Carney as part of a merger and has run the bank since 2011 is a testament to his understanding of the fundamental business of banking and the fundamental principles of leading a team. Craig might say that banking is something of a family business since his father was a banker before him. But what that really means is that Craig is committed to cultivating strong relationships in his community and building a culture where multiple generations of employees can find meaningful work.
00:02:36
Speaker
There's a conversational quality to his leadership, something you'll hear in this episode. He's as intentional about listening and trusting other people as he is about offering wisdom and support. I have to wonder if he honed this skill on the golf course, where the players are constantly in conversation about elements that fall outside their control. He's continually observing and learning from others.
Early Exposure to Banking
00:03:00
Speaker
Craig is the kind of leader who is always improving his swing, even though he's hit a lot of impressive shots through the course of his career. And he encourages his team to deliver steady performance rather than acing every shot. It's a delight to have him as the guest for episode 14 of Builder Banker Hacker Chief. Now it's time to hop into the golf cart and take a ride with Craig Montanero.
00:03:29
Speaker
Craig, I can't tell you how excited I am to have you today on Builder Banker Hacker Chief. Thank you for joining me. Thanks, Nathan. Thanks for having me. you know it's a it's It's a very special moment, I think, for me personally. ah because um you know So the audience knows Craig ah was actually a very formative part at the beginning stages of Z-suite technologies. It was one of the very first banks that we ever talked to. um after we spun out from leader bank and one of the very first banks to to to join in and and and be our client. And so I've always looked so much up to you, Craig. um I appreciated both your involvement and advice that I've gotten throughout the years. And I'm really excited to be able to share that with our audience. I appreciate that.
00:04:15
Speaker
you know The first place I'd love to start is kind of back to your origin story, if you will. So now you're the CEO of Carney Bank, very successful ah bank in the you know New Jersey area. um But that wasn't always the case. So as you think about your leadership journey, kind of where where did it begin or what type of influences did you have as you were growing up?
Family Business Challenges
00:04:40
Speaker
So growing up, my father was a first generation CEO. He was a military guy.
00:04:46
Speaker
ah originally in the submarines, then he got out of the submarines and got into banking. And he really pushed me to be a banker since I was really a young lad. I mean, when I was five or six, I was going to meet directors, going to the branches. I mean, it's really all I knew as a, as a child and, you know, growing up, he was that big influence about I was going to be a banker. I was going to be the CEO of a bank. So, I mean, that's where it all starts.
00:05:16
Speaker
And when he did that, I mean, how how did you receive it kind of growing up? Because I mean, what a unique experience. I mean, how many of us when we were kids were able to meet the board of directors of of a bank and ah be able to kind of have someone right in their house mentoring them. ah But I could see that being as beneficial and and maybe actually turn you off to the idea. So I mean, when i he made it a lot of fun. I gotta be honest with you. he He always made it a lot of fun. He always brought me you know to to the main office. It was a small bank, very close-knit staff, and the directors were local community directors. you know The businesses changed a lot, but the influences and the concepts of community banking were rooted in you know where what I learned through the directors and and the officers at the bank. and and He really
00:06:05
Speaker
He made it fun when I was young. I mean i did things you know from you know being a teller to cleaning REO properties. i mean You name it, I did a cutting grass. He kind of taught me all the goods and bads of it and and the ins and outs. and i guess you know There was a little pressure, I think, um you know Being his son and and working for the family and having to kind of work harder was the challenge because I always felt like I had to do more than everybody else, be more you know concerned about the bank, be more caring of the clients.
Learning from Failures
00:06:39
Speaker
That was the pressure piece, but the good piece is his staff, I knew since I was so young, there was just this natural chemistry and culture and it was like a family. So if I needed help or I needed to help someone, it was just you know natural reaction. We help each other.
00:06:55
Speaker
It gets done. um You know, there there were pressures. I mean, you know, he had a tendency to put me in places and do things probably before somebody my age did. I mean, I went to banking school and at the time it was ah America's Community Bankers. I think I went to banking school right out of college. I was like 23. I know about zero about the business.
00:07:20
Speaker
Craig already mentioned his involvement with the bank from a young age, but that doesn't mean you go to banking school knowing everything about balance sheets or the other complexities that allow banks to function. Banking school is where Craig had to step out of his father's sphere of influence and decide if he really wanted to step into the world of banking. As you're about to hear, Craig doesn't take himself too seriously, which could be a delicate balance to strike as the chief executive of a publicly traded bank. He knows how to set high expectations and have grace for his team when things don't pan out. And that is what separates the theory of leadership from the practice.
00:08:01
Speaker
And he sent me to school and all these people I was at banking school with are like CFOs and CLOs and COOs. And there' there's this there's me kind of like the assistant controller who does you know payroll and accounts payable and some investment math. And I'm with all these heavy duty, heavy hitters, but you know that was his way, just always pushed me along. And you know he was a very gritty kind of guy. and You never said no to him because he always had these high expectations. And you know he always used to say to me, hey, you know you know, people will rise to the expectations of Seth for them. And that's kind of how I live my life with him. I mean, we had our moments. I didn't really work for him, which was actually very good. Most of the time I worked for the CFO, which is fantastic because we kind of, you know, as you're younger, when you're, you know, I think when you're in your twenties and thirties, when you work for your father.
00:08:50
Speaker
I think there's a lot of butting heads, but then once you have a family and I guess grow up and do some things, you start to realize, man, my father's pretty sharp. He knows what he's doing. And it was one of those relationships at you know at ah at a young age. It wasn't perfect chemistry, but I and i didn't have to work with him that much, which was actually very good. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things that you shared that I think um are just great lessons. um The first one that you pulled out is your dad was putting you in positions to stretch and to learn, especially when you were young, but did so in a fun way so that you could be engaged. And I think lots of times in the workplace, leaders might forget that. Oh, yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
they might forget you know this aspect of fun and this aspect of play and this aspect of of trying to make it more than just the everyday mundane thing
Encouraging Responsibility
00:09:40
Speaker
to capture people's attention. So I'm curious just that you know having that as a template as such a young person, how you've applied that kind of now is now as a ceo a CEO and someone that mentors, I'm sure, a lot of people. so Here's my theory on that. A couple things I think are important. Number one, my father was a great listener. He wanted to hear everybody talk. And I really do a lot of listening and don't do a lot of talking because I think my job is to take it all in from people. And I think when you do that, I think
00:10:15
Speaker
I think people get excited about what they do. I think it's fun for them. They can express themselves. They feel a part of it. And you're not speaking at them. You're listening and you're saying, you know, that's a great idea. Let's, you know, let's take that off on a sidebar and talk about it. I also think ah I like to use a little humor. Levity is so important in our business. This morning, as an example, i you know, tomorrow's Bring Your Child to Work Day. And I was walking through our kind of cafeteria and all these people are blowing up balloons and I went to get some coffee and they're like, hey Greg, you want to help us blow up balloons? And I said, i said you you really want the answer to that? And they started to laugh. I said, I know I have a lot of hot air to help you. I said, I really don't want to blow up balloons today, folks.
00:11:00
Speaker
You know, and, and just being fun about it and, and, and, you know, making light. And I think, you know, you know, I make fun of myself. I think it's important, you know, and I tell my staff all the time, you know, we we're we're having discussions and and listen, I'm maybe I'm a little different than the average CEO, but if I come up with an idea, I'll walk into my CFO's room and my CEO's room and I'm like, I want to do this. Tell me why I'm not right. Tell me why this is going to be bad. And we joke about it and we joke around and and we try to use humor. and and and make the interaction um for people important to them. I want people to feel like they contribute every day
Remote Work Challenges
00:11:40
Speaker
to our success and that nobody goes unheard. And and listen, there are some ideas that folks can't do that. i mean me in
00:11:48
Speaker
somebody said to me the other day, we should come out with like a 6% CD rate. I said, that's that's a little much. I think that's a mistake, you know? But, you know, it's a young person saying, well, we want more deposits. I said, well, I can't really afford 6%. Let's think about it now. But I mean, we we we really are a culture of Listening and and we do have funds we do a lot of things here um with our families and special days for our kids we have different events at our corporate headquarters I mean we participated in the Jersey Mike's day we have food trucks that come in.
00:12:23
Speaker
defeat you know to have lunch for people. We really try to make coming here enjoyable and that people really want to work hard. And also, I always tell people, look, at you know ah we're only as good as each other and how we help each other. And it's all about the good of the cause and about the future of the bank. And if we work together, you know we can do a lot of great things. Yeah. Yeah. So, um you know, lots of times when people say, you know, we should have fun at work, I think the first thing that most leaders think about is like ping pong or foosball or, you know, go out and do team building events and stuff like that. And I love that when I asked the question about having fun at work, it was I give them an opportunity to express themselves.
00:13:07
Speaker
I give them an opportunity to contribute.
Journey to CEO
00:13:10
Speaker
um I give them an opportunity to share their ideas. And even if we don't love the ideas, it gives us an opportunity to learn. And I think that's that's one thing that you know I would love for leaders to take away is that fun isn't necessarily just about doing quote unquote fun things, playing video games together, doing go-karts, mini golf, like all those different types of things. Sure, that could be a part of it, but really in the end, what they want is to feel important, to be able to express themselves, to be themselves, and to be able to do something. So thank you so much for sharing that. sure
00:13:46
Speaker
The other thing that I wanted to pull on the thread a little bit is this idea of having high standards, setting those as standards, and expecting that people are gonna be able to step up to them. I'm guessing with your father being from the military, I believe you said he's a sub-manner. I'm sure that some of that came from that, right? No, absolutely.
00:14:10
Speaker
um But the question that I have, and maybe you could think of some examples in in in your life where you someone had those high expectations of you or you had those high expectations of someone else and you're expecting them to meet them or you were expected to meet them and you didn't. And how to deal with that, like how to move past that. So I'll give you a really good example. There was a gentleman who was my CFO for a long time. I won't name his name. He's a retired great guy and he wanted to do something. What he really wanted to do is focus on a certain area of kind of the investment and he wanted to be the both the CFO and the chief investment officer. And as a part of the process, it was learning some things on the derivative side that were very complicated. So, you know, being the CFO and the chief investment officer, sometimes
00:15:08
Speaker
when you're going into areas like derivatives and hedging, it's complicated. But he was he's a brilliant guy, want to get it done. And he said, give me six months and I promise I'll get up to speed and we can start to do these things. And you know ah you know I said, sure, i and yeah give it a shot. And after six months, he came to me and he said, I can't do it. And I was like, you know Why can't you do it? He goes, I just can't do it. It's it's too much being the CFO and being the chief investment officer. and i said And he says, if you want to fire me, you could fire me. And I said, whoa, wait a minute. wait um He's like, well, I didn't hit the standard. I said, you know standards are great, but sometimes you don't hit the standards. And sometimes you have to look back and refocus and say, that's just not possible. you know It's the same thing in business when you launch a product and you think it's going to be great.
00:16:01
Speaker
and you have the standard that we're gonna revolutionize whatever it is and you figure out that you're terrible at it and you back off and you reorganize it and you come back and say, well, we didn't hit the standard. I always say, look, if you don't hit the standard and you worked hard and it's just not possible, then that's not anybody's fault. That just means that it's just not possible. you know And you have to regroup and sit back and say, hey, can we do this or are we doing it wrong? um but i But I always tell people, look, at Sometimes it just doesn't work and and it's not a bad thing. And you know like anything else, my my directors always say to me, what do you think about going over 10 billion? And I say to them, you know
Personal Influences and Hobbies
00:16:40
Speaker
that's ah that's a big, big thing for us. And I say to them, you know I don't know. I mean, it's a big deal. And you know I have to think about whether I can do it myself. you know And and i I try to get people to kind of reflect you know and and look at things. And when they don't hit the standards,
00:16:58
Speaker
but they've worked hard and it's just not possible to say, hey, I just couldn't do it. It's just, it's impossible. And I, it's okay. That's all right. That's business, right? I mean, you can't win at everything. I know you guys at Z-suite. I mean, there's things you've done that you've had to retool and rework because you you set a standard and you just said, it's not going to happen. Okay, what did we learn from it? I think the most important part of that is, as long as people are doing what they need to do and working to get things done, and they come back and say, I just can't do it. I don't think it's going to be possible. I think that's okay. I always will because I've done things that didn't work and said to my board, hey, you know, this is just not going to happen. I mean, we were going to get into in the insurance business, and we were looking to buy small agencies and do things and
00:17:44
Speaker
We were doing M and&A with these people and looking at numbers. And after we looked at everything and the numbers and did everything, I went back to my board. I said, you know what? It's never going to work. It's just, it's the cultures don't fit. The expenses don't fit. And we spent a lot of time on it. And I had to admit to them, I don't think we can do it. And they had the standard. They wanted to do it. I said, it's just not going to work. It's not going to make money for us. So, you know, you have to be a little more open-minded, I think. Yeah, I love that you can you can set the standard, you can have high expectations. And at the same time, you can create room for failure, you can create room for learning, you can create room for growth. I love that. I mean, think about Nathan, you learn more about your failures than your successes, I think, and nobody likes to admit that everybody likes to hit home runs.
00:18:33
Speaker
I gotta be honest, yeah at Carney, we talk about hitting singles. That's what we like to hit. We'll get we'll get on bass, we'll hit singles. I'm um'm fearful of the home run. I think a home run is not always so great. That is not what young and ambitious leaders want to hear. Startup culture claims to be data-driven, and yet lots of entrepreneurs eagerly embrace big risks because of the potential upside. It's shinier. It makes for a much more exciting story. And as Craig is pointing out, it's not always the best approach. If you read James Clear's book, Atomic Habits, consistent, marginal improvement, way outperforms radical, heroic effort over the long haul,
00:19:15
Speaker
The methodical approach is also more in step with human capacity. Nearly everyone is capable of getting a little better every day. Not everyone is capable of performing at the top 1% for a given task or skill set. As the joke goes, half of Harvard's students are below average.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that was one of the keys from Moneyball. Yeah, so true. Both the book and the movie about the you know the statisticians trying to figure out the best way to get a base you know ah the best baseball team together. And it wasn't about the big superstars hitting home runs. I mean, if you look at your value you look at your people. Getting on a base. Getting on a base. We have people in every organization that get on base every day. And and those are the people tend to you know be the most successful for us. Quite frankly the ones that hit the home runs a lot are great but sometimes the you know they're great but they also require a lot of attention and sometimes they don't hang around and that's always a challenge you know.
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. I love that. Thanks. Thank you so much for letting us dive kind of into some of those key lessons that you learned from your dad and working with him. um You know, you you you grew up kind of being groomed to become a CEO ah at a bank. You went to college with that in mind. right after college, you went to banking school with people you know several years, you're senior, but like, hey, this is this is this is happening. um You shared a little bit that while you worked at the bank when your father was there, ah that you didn't actually report to him
00:20:56
Speaker
ah but rather you reported to, I believe you said the the the CFO. So I'd love to to to hear a little bit about um some of how that worked, just because I do know that there are several bankers as well as folks on the technology side. that have some of these relationships, whether it be father, son, mother, daughter, ah the mix of the two, ah siblings, you know, those types of things. Lots of times, family dynamics come into business sure and, you know, different ways to learn how to manage that, I think would be ah would be some great learning for those that are listening. So I was really fortunate in that I knew the CFO since I was five or six years old. At the time, he wasn't
Nature of Leadership
00:21:40
Speaker
even the CFO.
00:21:41
Speaker
He was just somebody at the bank working there. I think he was the branch manager, you know, and over the years the bank grew, he moved up the line and I had known him since I was five or six. So when I went to work at the bank, I really wasn't going to work at the bank of originally. I was going to do something else. And I had worked a couple summers and some winters in the accounting department, you know, doing all kinds of accounting work and stuff he taught me. And then when I got out of college, uh, I was interviewing with some mortgage companies and some other things. And he turned to me and he says, why don't you want to work for us? I said, listen, my father doesn't want me to take a job here right out of the shoe. He wants me to work for somebody else, learn some things, and then come back into the business. you think He would be thought it would be better exposure for me. And this guy knew me really well. And he's like, I need you. You know what you're doing.
00:22:32
Speaker
I can teach you everything." And he basically, he and another gentleman, both who are retired now, um who worked here, they yeah they convinced my dad to keep me on. and you know, they both taught me, you know, the work ethic, everything they knew about banking, how to look at things. um But one of the most important things they taught me is to stay away from my father, which is kind of funny in a way, because they knew there was that kind of rub it going on between a father and son. And I was young, and they had seen it, um you know, and, you know, I told you, you know, that one example, I must have been in my
00:23:12
Speaker
early thirties. I home wasn't married yet. and And I was working in accounting, doing a lot of things. it was It was great. And one day for whatever reason, I decided to go up to my father's office and I asked him, you know, he he had this big leather chair with a leather seat and he was facing the wall, facing that little TV in his office, watching whatever was on the the financial thing or whatever it was, even if I don't even know we have financial stuff then. but And I said to him, you know, What am I doing here? Where am I where am i going? I'm in the accounting department. I know how to do all these things, but what's going to happen to me?" And he kind of spun around in his chair and being you know kind of the military guy that he was. He just shot from the hip and he got up and he said, he said you don't want you don't want to work here? And I was like, well, where am I going? And he says,
00:24:00
Speaker
Where are you going? Okay. you know And I had been out of banking school already. So there were things percolating and I was getting more responsibility, but it wasn't fast enough for me. So he opened it up his side door, which was like in an employee exit. And he said, look, he's like, if you're not happy, he's like, there's the door right out on your own. He goes, I'll work it out with your mother. I'll explain to her what's going on. He says, but if you don't want to work here, good luck to you, pal. You know, I'll give you a great, I'll give you a great review and a recommendation, but it's up to you. So I looked at him, scratched my head, I went, okay, I'm going to go back downstairs, went back to my office, sat in the chair, and about 10 minutes later, the CFO comes down, closes the door, he goes, what are you doing? I told you never to talk to your father when we're in the office.
00:24:45
Speaker
you need to work with me and stay away from it. So, I mean, that's kind of the dynamic, the family dynamic. And then as I got older and I started to realize, now I always knew my father was a very good businessman. He had always done very well with the bank and had gone through a lot of different things, the thrift crisis and so forth. um I started to recognize, and I guess this happens as you get older of that, you know, you you should listen to you know some of your elders, they they know the business, they know it well. And I started to realize the benefit of talking to them about things and and our relationship got closer. But we definitely had we definitely had some challenges when I was young. He and I really didn't see eye to eye, quite frankly, for many, many years, almost, I would say a good eight, nine years until I woke up one morning and said, this guy has so much knowledge and he's trying to
00:25:38
Speaker
help me, I've got to start listening. And then it was fine. You know, family dynamics are tough in the business. Yeah, no, they definitely are. That's why I wanted you to share a little bit because I think that they're they're more prevalent than they're not. Oh, yeah. Right. um We have and and we have people here that have, you know, their Children that work for us in different departments, see we don't really, we don't say no to it, but we tell everybody, look, you know, they work here. If they don't do what they need to do, they don't work here. And fortunately for us, not going to what I think, I would say 99% of these people will stay with the organization. They grow, they have good parents. We mentor them and they and they become somebody at the party. It's kind of interesting in a way that it's so successful. So.
00:26:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's great. One of the themes that you touched on a little bit, um I'm gonna call it the impetuousness of the of youth, right? um I know I definitely had a ah big portion of it where I always wanted to do more faster. And I think the other side is is get the experience and learning before you try and do more faster, because in the end, you actually will go faster. Yes. And there is a fine balance, right? Because some of the people that have changed the world have done it in their early 20s. And other people who have changed the world have done it in their 60s, 70s, 80s even. And so I'm just curious, just from from your experience, both for yourself, but also other people that ah that you've mentored, kind of what what advice do you have for people who are sitting here thinking,
00:27:16
Speaker
Man, I need more. I need faster. um Let's go. If I'm not getting it here, I just need to go somewhere else. um Yeah. what but What words of advice might you have for them? So I always tell folks here. To throw your hat, you know get involved. you know If you work for somebody and you're doing what you need to do and you want more, go to them and say, hey, listen, I'd like to learn more. I'd like to help you with things. Can you show me things? Can I take something off of your plate? um I have a desire for more responsibility. And I think i think people love that. I think that's important.
00:27:54
Speaker
I also encourage people here to move around a little bit, Nathan. I mean, we have a number of people that came from the branch world. They came out of college during the Great Recession and they couldn't find a job. They were tellers, platform people, and they decided that they wanted to get out of the retail end of it. and focus on operations or something else. So they got jobs in accounting, spent a couple of years there and then found jobs ah in auditing or IT. We provide some educational support. So I have a fair share of folks that have been in many departments and I think that's what keeps them here and keeps them satisfied. on One individual um who's now doing all of our project management
00:28:45
Speaker
um was an IT auditor and got a ah very high certification for it. Most people don't pass that test and he passed it. And Flying Co. decided you know he liked auditing and he liked IT, t but he wants he wants to manage IT projects and he wants to be in the innovation that area. So now he's in the innovation area managing IT products and he doesn't want to be an IT auditor. but he's been throughout the entire company. And you know there were lateral moves, there were some vertical moves, but I always encourage people, if there's a job that you want to learn, and I say to people, look, at money's important, but you know if you broaden your spectrum in terms of what you know in this bank, the vertical opportunities are much higher. So for a couple dollars to leave to do something, because it's four more dollars,
00:29:27
Speaker
Obviously, it's more than $400 to do something in compliance when you could do you know you could be in auditing right that you really like, or you could be in you know you know that on the digital side. um and you and you And you want to take classes, it will send you. I mean, I tell people it's it's worth it. it's You know, you're young. you know The money will come, it's and it's not only about the money, it's about, you know, the opportunity to kind of understand the business. I'm fortunate. Listen, I grew up in a time where I learned everything. You wore a thousand hats. Nowadays, it's very hard to do that, you know, unless the company
00:30:01
Speaker
We've always been have that philosophy that, you know, we, you know, we have people that are constantly trading from one area to another because these people want more opportunity and they want to do something different. So we let them do it. Yeah. Yeah. And mean ah one of the, one of the things that I heard as you were sharing that is don't shy away from trying to do more. But it's more, I think, the mentality, right? The way that you phrased it is ask how you can help. Absolutely. Throw your hat in the ring and ask for help and mentorship. um Try and do something else, ah but, you know, try to find out what classes you might need to take or what mentors you might need to do.
00:30:44
Speaker
And so you know i I kind of wrote down here, you know lead with humility versus pride as you look to move faster and do more. I think. Ask for that help. don't Don't say, I'm ready and I know how to do it. Can I tell you something? If you take anybody in this organization and and and say to them, ah the top people, you know this person wants to learn some more about this and is really interested, can help you with this. and People are like, Greg, I would love their help. And they'll spend the time to teach you because it it helps the company. And I think that's, you know, maybe it's, you know, we're small enough that we could do that. I think that's the other piece to it, you know, and that's always been a fundamental piece of our culture. But I agree with you. I mean, I think it's really not, I know it, it's, hey, how can I, how can I help you? I want to learn more. I love when people say that. I mean, I think it's phenomenal. ah You know, i I tell you during the pandemic, I had some interesting meetings with people about,
00:31:41
Speaker
you know, working at home and not working at home and, and know where you know how you know, how is this going to work? And, you know, I want to work at home permanently. And a number of young people, I said to them, I said, you really want to work at home permanently? And I said to them, well, what do you really want to do when you, you know, get past being, say, an analyst? And they're like, well, one guy says, well, I want your job. And I said, really? That's great. Fantastic. I said, but You're not going to get my job if you're sitting in your basement doing line sheets and I can't see you know how you work with people, how you lead, how you deal with clients. Our world is in the middle of a heated debate about remote work and how effective it is. I'm the CEO and co-founder of a remote company, and I deeply respect what Craig is saying here. Getting promoted to leadership is much harder when you aren't rubbing shoulders with people on a daily basis.
00:32:37
Speaker
There are some hugely successful companies that work remotely and love it. Other companies have tried it and are returning to the office. Some are taking a page from both books. That's not a surprise to me. But here's where the rubber meets the road for leaders and people who want to become leaders. You can't learn or improve your people skills in a vacuum. Whatever your working environment, the path to promotion will likely require you to engage coworkers and clients at a level that is beyond the normal. In some sense, you have something to prove, and the best person to advocate for your future is you.
00:33:18
Speaker
you know You got to be here. You got to be in front of us. So working remotely five days a week, I said, it's it's going to be hard to get promoted that way. No matter how great you do you know analyzing loans, there's those other pieces that you have to get up, understood, and thank me, walked away. And he's doing something else. Now, actually, he's a loan officer, which is really interesting because he wanted to go on the client side because he knows once he goes from the analyst side to the client side, the next step would be you know leading a team, a region, and he somehow he got what I was driving at. Yeah, no, that's great. It's a great, you know, it's a tangible example too. I think there's a lot of leaders right now struggling with um both their own personal thoughts as well as their organizational thoughts on hybrid, yeah remote, in-person. um And what I hear from everybody is the two biggest things that are
00:34:12
Speaker
very, very hard to do remote is building relationships and learning new things. I agree with you. I think and it's hard. what do you need What are the two things you need to do if you want to continue to grow as a leader? You got to be in person with people, right? You got to be in front of them. And I got to tell you, I think that is the most important thing we're going to learn out of the pandemic and the results. And I don't know if you see it. I'm sure you see it with your folks. I see it here. Even my top execs say, can we get together in person? They don't want to do teams. They want to sit in front of you. And even other people are like, can we just be together? And I'm like, yeah.
00:34:53
Speaker
We can meet together all the time. I said, I don't need to be on teams. I said, I'll do it when we you know we're all over the place. But I agree with you 100%. So important. Yeah. And in full disclosure, you know our company is a ah remote company. But man, do we invest quite a bit in bringing people together? you know and And I got to be honest with you. Whether it be for our large scale meetings and such. That that is you know for a bank. i mean Put it this way and and and technology companies, and you guys are really a technology company to me, right? I mean, you're a FinTech company. You guys are really used to that. That's kind of your, how you free created the business and how you grew it. And for a bank where it's slightly different, it's it's it's a little different. Our roots are more kind of in person because it's, you know, it's a combo of technology and other things I could see.
00:35:48
Speaker
for you folks that that works better. But I agree with you, it's it's still hard for you guys. Like you said, it's bringing people together is it is a challenge, you know, it's a big challenge. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, the very first time we did one of our in person meetings together, we had like, you know, a lot of content programmed, we had outside speakers coming in and the feedback afterwards was like, I mean, that was fine. But We kind of just want to hang out. Like we want to get to know each other. We want to talk to each other because we don't have this opportunity when we're on, you know, teams or Slack or whatever it is. So, um you know, I think those fundamental needs are definitely there all throughout.
00:36:30
Speaker
Now, to to to to come back a little bit to the timeline of your story, so, um you know, fast forward, we know you're the CEO of Cardi Bank, ah but the first one that you worked with, it was it was a bank, your dad was the CEO, um you worked under the CFO, kind of what what happened next, all right? What was that next step for you as you were saying, hey, how can I help? How can I do more? So I was, ah you know, I did a lot of the, you know i I helped him on the retail side. And at one point he said, listen, I need somebody to be the chief operating officer, kind of the manage the retail folks over CHR. And you know I was kind of, you know at the time, you know back then, everybody thought they were, and I think we were IT people, really weren't, we had consultants that did everything. But you know I had my arms and and hands around the you know you know the ah the data processor, I knew the folks who ran
00:37:25
Speaker
you know At the time, it was a company called FSI there, and they now sold to somebody else, FIS, years ago. But I knew all the people there, and I had interacted with them while I was working for the CFO. So we basically decided they were going to split me out of accounting, and I was just going to do you know operations, branch operations, ah you know management information systems, security, a little bit of marketing. And and and I kind of got the COO umbrella And that's where I kind of sat. And that was like my final step at that bank till we sold to Carney. Yeah. Tell me about that. So, I mean, that obviously that had to have been a big transition at that at that point as well. So that was that was really interesting because, um you know, we had an older board and ah my CFO at the time said to me, I'm done.
00:38:19
Speaker
i I can't work any harder. I'm tired. He was having some medical issues and he was maybe 52, 53. I was like, ooh, 32, 33, 34. And um the board had said to me, and I had known the board for years, they had always said to me that I was going to be the heir of parent. And you know, what do I know? I mean, it sounds great and everything. And I was still very young, 32, 33. And basically, um you know we sat down and talked about it, and we were going to lose our chief financial officer. We were going to lose our chief lending officer. My father was going to retire. And I was really had nobody. I mean, I had people, but there was nobody below that to run the bank. So we talked about you know doing something called a remutalization.
00:39:09
Speaker
which is basically we had we had sold minority shares and we we looked for somebody to buy those shares. That was a mutual company or another MHC. And I had kind of knew the folks at Carney. My dad knew them kind of part and parcel to it. And Carney was big into that. They had dad been acquiring as a mutual public companies, football, but companies, but they understood the mutual holding company math and They were interested in you know our franchise because it expanded. so They were in a really small section of, and they were very large, but you know a small part of kind of Hudson and Bergen County. This gave them Morris and ah Passaic County, Essex County, and they wanted that. And and that's, you know we kind of talked about it and I ran kind of the due diligence process. That's how I got to know the CEO, Jack Hopkins, my predecessor.
00:40:07
Speaker
And I got to kind of understand it, but you know we as a board, you know the board and everybody decided that you know you know at 400 million, we just weren't big enough to compete. And I couldn't run the company. you know they They realized there weren't enough people. And I was a little young. I didn't really have enough background to do it. So that was the decision. And we found a partner and it you know was a great partner. And I think what was interesting about it is it was a really good fit because in many ways it was like where we came from. and And that was really what sold us, that the cultures were the same. And it was a great opportunity for everybody in this organization because many of the people here are still here or retiring because it just was the same culture. Great fit. It really worked well. um
00:40:54
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Great fit really worked well. These are usually not words associated with bank mergers. It's true. And so I love, I love hearing that. And I think that the, it sounds like the key was a strong cultural fit yeah and strong alignment as to the why. Yep. Yep. I think, you know, one of the things I said to my folks during the process, and and and this was unique because they really took most of us because they didn't have a huge team. at Carney, it was a small team. And I had said to my folks, look at, you know, go into this with an open mind, do what you're asked. And I said, on the backside of this, you will be people that survive. And I think many of you will aspire to higher levels at the bank because you're talented and their talent is getting older. They need younger talent. They need a second tier ah succession plan, which they really did. And, you know, what did I know? I was young, but I really did believe that.
00:41:54
Speaker
and it ended up working out well that way. Yeah. So now you have this opportunity. It's a ah a whole new organization. um Your dad's no longer the CEO, ah your mentor, um and the person that you work directly under, the CFO, was no longer there either. ah This could be kind of a ah scary time to have such a significant change in who you're reporting up to and who you're trying to learn from. So I'm just curious how you manage that that that relationship change um and what that did to help continue to you know build you into who you are today. So, I mean, you know fortunately for me, you know some of the skills I had at my old bank, you know they immediately said, we want you to you know
00:42:44
Speaker
do certain things here because you know how to do it, this and that. and i you know I got pretty close to the CEO with the legends and he really utilized me on the retail side for about about a year and then he brought me inside for strategic planning some marketing and to really focus on the business. And what he really wanted me to focus on was the capital markets and doing acquisitions and looking at banks and doing, you know, branch build outs and things like that. That's what he asked me to focus on. So I worked with him on a lot of those things.
00:43:23
Speaker
And in particular, the M and&A thing, which he was very good at, he taught me about the M and&A and got me engaged in that part of the business. And that really turned me on to kind of the concept of scale and building businesses and business lines. And it kind of positioned me to, I was the kind of guy that you know They gave me a project. I would do this project. I would do that project. I did our i did our ah MHC equity conversion. We raised, I don't know, $500 million dollars in capital because I had done it at West Essex. So he gave me that to do. And you know that was a wild success. So that you know that yeah that that really got me rolling to get tighter with all the other groups and the other people. And I i got to kind of a senior VP level. I did a lot of special projects and things. And I worked with the top management team.
00:44:14
Speaker
And that's where I really kind of blossomed because I knew ah Pat Joyce was our chief lending officer. I got very close with him. you know and and our our CFO Bill Ledgerwood and a whole bunch of people. and And they kind of knew, I was really about the bank and the success of the bank. It wasn't about yeah whether I wanted to be the CEO or not. It was like, how do we build a better mousetrap? And and we were all working hard, but I mean, it it just it just kind of blossomed through just doing different things, now asking to do different things. Can I help you with this? Can I do that? And then wanting to give them you know kind of me special projects.
00:44:50
Speaker
so Yeah. No, that's that that's fantastic. um you two Two things that I would just want to pull on the thread a little bit. One, and we've already touched on this ah before, but I love how it's a consistent theme ah with both your leadership to other people, but also you know other people to you. If you put your self-interest aside and you focus on the greater goals of the organization, your self-interest will probably be taken care of. I think it always will.
00:45:21
Speaker
I mean, I'll give you a saying. it and I just love that. I'll so give you a saying at Carney and this goes way back from Pat Joyce, who's our chief lending officer, who's been around really like 40 years now or something like that. And um what was the saying? um I should we should forget it. Oh, when somebody asked you to get something done, the answer is we'll get it done. it's I don't know. I might not be able to do it. The answer at Carney is we'll get it done. We'll make it happen. I need this. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. It gets done. Nobody says to anybody, I can't help you. I don't have the time. The answer is, all right, let's figure it out. We'll make it happen. And that's a philosophy we've always had. And that comes from Jack Hopkins. Like when you're asked to do something, you know, you work with people to get it done. And, you know, listen, like we said before, sometimes things don't work. That's a different situation, but no, ah everybody knows it's for the good of the company. And, and you know, I always say to people,
00:46:19
Speaker
and When we have strategic planning meetings, you know what we do every day is our tickets are remaining independent for as long as we can as a company. People recognize that. I don't lie to people. I say, we control our destiny to some degree and we have to do that. yeah and The way to do it is keep getting it done. Exactly. No matter what, try to do it. So at some point, the time came where ah they needed to pick a new CEO. And obviously foreshadowing, we know it's you. ah But I would love to just hear a little bit about that story, how that came to be, because those types of transitions are always, they can be difficult. They're always interesting. So it's an interesting story. There were ah three folks involved ah that were applying to be the CEO.
00:47:12
Speaker
ah My CFO at the time, who was a very good friend of mine, I mean, we're very close. We worked together on so many things because I had done the conversion and the capital raise. We worked together on that. and I was doing investor relations. We worked together on that. and While we work didn't get a lot of coverage from analysts, we worked on everything together. and and We really were very close. so When the time came to apply for the job, it was kind of like, You know, what's going to happen here? We had another gentleman that applied halfway through the process. He kind of said, you know what? I don't think this is for me. And he stepped back, which is fine. I mean, he had, he but he just felt it wasn't him. So it got, it came down to myself and the CFO. And um we went to a couple rounds of interviews.
00:48:01
Speaker
And I'll be honest with you. And my father coached me. He's a great coach. He said to me, I want you to go out and I want you to meet with the directors you think that are not going to vote for you and take them to lunch and tell them your story and talk to them about it. And I said, yeah, I didn't really think about it. And then I said, you know, you're right. That's probably a good idea. So I took a couple of directors to lunch that I kind of knew were not in my camp, not that they didn't think I would be a good CEO, but they maybe had a preference for the CFO and I took them to lunch and told them one story and they got to know me. And I think somehow I convinced them that you know being the CEO doesn't mean you have to be the best CFO. It means that you have to have vision and you know drive you know try to drive people to be successful. And you know we went to the interview.
00:48:52
Speaker
And it got down to like the second interview, like it was split, it was wild. It was split 50-50, and then we went for a second interview. And that's where it divided. And I remember the day before they were going to tell us, I went down into my CFO's office and I said to them, I don't know what's going to happen here. I said, but whatever happens, if you get the job, I'm going to be the COO. If I get the job, you're going to be the COO. Whatever happens, we're going to work together and make this the best thing we can make. And he said, I love that. And he said, 100%. And the day they announced it, he came into my office and he sat me down. He shook my hand. He goes, what do you want to do? I said, let's, let's make this place happen. Let's end. He was my right hand man, along with my, yeah with a new CFO. These two, those two guys, I mean, I didn't go anywhere. I did do anything without them and they were brilliant help. And, uh, you know, he said to me one thing, which is really interesting. He said, just don't make me not ask.
00:49:51
Speaker
And I said, what do you mean by that? And he said, I want to be part of this. I want to create. I want to be. um an important part of this. I said, you're going to run the whole retail piece. That's your baby and some other areas. I said, and you just do it. I'm not going to tell you what to do. You're a CFO. You manage it. Just tell me what's going on. I'm not going to babysit you. you know you know This guy was you know was CFO. You don't babysit CFOs. That's not what you do in this business. You work with them. You ask them their opinions. You value them. And he ran it.
00:50:24
Speaker
fantastically. And when there was an issue, we talked about it. If I heard something, I needed to talk to him. I talked to him. But, you know, we kind of worked together on it and we worked, oh God, he retired 2000,
00:50:38
Speaker
probably 18, 19, not that long ago, two or three years ago. But it was, it was I was fortunate. He didn't leave. And, but I think part of it is we had a good relationship. We, we trusted each other and it was about, you know, and he was a very, very, uh, hardworking guy that wanted to make the bank successful. That was his focus always. So that's how we really gel. Yeah. No, that's that, that, that is a, that is a great story. Thank you so much for sharing that.
00:51:12
Speaker
um So ah you know you've taken over as CEO at Carney Bank. Y'all have ah just a ah wonderful organization. I've had the chance to work with so many of your team members and constantly impressed with the culture ah that that you all have there. um I'm curious as you look outside, you know we spend a lot of time talking about the bank, your professional experience, your educational experience. um I'm curious what type of influences ah that helped you to become the leader that you are, that you've had outside of the bank and outside of the profession. And I know for some of it, family was deeply involved.
00:51:56
Speaker
ah with your with your dad as the CEO, but I'm just curious as you look back on important lessons that you've learned, um are there any that you can look at you know outside of your you know professional self? That's a good question. you know I think part of what I learned, I've got to be honest with you, I learned you know from being a father, to be honest with you. I think you know you have a family and I know you know it's not always the piece, but I think the dynamics of being a father, being a family person, um you know, and and also being involved and and outside just the banks community in my own town, in my own community with people and and seeing people and talking to people. um I think your exposure to your friends is is so important. I have so many friends that what what I think I got a lot out of them, they're all, on most actually all my friends are entrepreneurs, which is really interesting.
00:52:56
Speaker
And part of that was understanding kind of what on how entrepreneurs think, how they do things. um And I learned a lot, and I still learn a lot from them to this day and age, about their businesses. And I think that was between my wife and my children. And I think one or something, I'll have to tell you, golf is one of my favorite things to do. And I think golf was really good both from a professional level and just kind of getting out there and clearing your mind and thinking about one thing. Whether you're into golf or not, Craig is making a point about the need for leaders to engage outside of the workplace. Lots of people with high professional ambition end up feeling as though family and recreational pursuits are a distraction from the important work.
00:53:47
Speaker
That's wrong. I'm not saying that it's wrong to enjoy your job or dislike golf. What I'm saying is that in order to be a healthy leader, you need to do things that make you a healthy human first. The literature on creativity and problem solving indicates that there is a whole host of things you need, such as exercise, sunlight, sleep, Relational connections. You're not a computer. And whatever job that artificial intelligence might replace in the future, I believe the world will always need more leaders, not fewer.
00:54:23
Speaker
And kind of just focusing in and and and saying, all right, I can do this. I can make that happen. And it gets you away from the banking business. So it was kind of a combination of my friends and their businesses, my family, and and just what I love, my passion for coffee. Yeah. Well, I have to say, if there's two things that'll keep me humble that will be parenting and it will be golfing. I think parenting i think parenting is the most humbling thing you'll ever ah experience. I say it to myself all the time. I'm like, you know, you know and and listen, nobody's the perfect parent. And, you know, you could sit back and think about what your parents did. My dad did some really interesting things being in the military. I mean, I can't tell you half the stories.
00:55:05
Speaker
but it always resonates. And what's funny about it is lot some of the things he did would never do with my children. So it was, it was the good and the bad, but um parenting is a tough one. It's not easy. Little kids, little problems, big kids, big problem. So, but it's, it's, it's still fun. It's still great. It's still great. Yeah. No, absolutely. So as we wrap up, there's two questions we always like to ask our, um, our guests. The first one is, outside of a typical business book, do you have any recommendations that people listening should absolutely read? so I'm going to give you two. ah One is a little more about um one is a little bore amount about golf. and it's it's It's really interesting because it's a story about, it's called The Match, and it's a story about Ben Hogan and um
00:56:00
Speaker
ah Ken Venturi, Byron Nelson and his fellow Harvey Ward and it's a match they played at Cypress Golf Course. I want to say in the 30s or 40s, right when professional golfers were playing amateurs and they set this match up and it was you know kind of the pros against the amateurs and it was a big deal and it was about young against old and kind of the way these four fellows played this match. They said it was the greatest match that was ever played and the respect and the excitement around it and what the young guys learned from the old guys and what the old guys learned from the young guys. And it was it's just an amazing golf story because you have really four of the greatest golfers in the world, two of the best amateurs, two of the best pros.
00:56:45
Speaker
and what they learned from each other on a beautiful day on Cypress Point golf course and you know who watched and what it meant and it was it's just a great golf book and it's very it's very interesting. The the other book it's not really more controversial but um it's a book called My Life by Golda Meir and I think with all the things going on in the world today um everybody should read about Golda Maier. She was just an amazing woman. I am i mean, if you don't if you don't read the book, watch the movie. She was one of the most incredible people as a leader and the skill and the guts.
00:57:25
Speaker
to do things when she really wasn't, ah you know, a military strategist or anything else. And I know we have things going on in the Middle East, but it really tells you about somebody and how incredible and how you can rise to the occasion and do things that maybe you never thought you could do because you got to get it done. You have to do what you need to do. So I think my life, like all of my years, it's a great read. It's very, very interesting. Yeah, I love it. We'll definitely check out both and we'll also put them in we'll make sure to put them in the show notes so anyone listening can look at the show notes and and get those. All right, so the last question. So Craig, from your perspective, do you believe a leader is born or a leader is made? So here's here's my answer. I'm going to hybrid jade. You're not going to like this. I think
00:58:15
Speaker
it I like all the answers. No, seriously. I think everybody in their DNA has leadership embedded in them. And I think the question becomes how strongly you want to be a leader. And that's where it kind of resonates from. So I think we all have potential. I think you're born with that leadership DNA. And I think it's, a you know, look, at there are some people that don't want to be leaders. They don't want to be out in front. They don't want to talk in front of people. They don't want to make the hard decisions, but they have leadership skills, but maybe not at the highest level. So I think, I think, I think partially you're born with it, but I think the other part is you really, you really have to want it. I don't know that you can make a leader out of somebody that doesn't want it. I don't think that works. You know what I'm saying?
00:59:06
Speaker
Yeah, no, I love it. ah Whether a leader is made or not is going to be up to their own decision to lean into it or to not lean into it, I think is what I hear you say. Yeah, I think that's the case because I i mean, look, at I'll give you my example. You know, I was a leader at West Essex um when the CEO position came up at Carney. um So many people told me to do it. And I really thought about it, but I wasn't really leaning towards it until you know actually Jack Hopkins told me to throw my hat in the ring. And my father said, you're crazy if you don't. I mean, I i would, I wanted to do it, but I was like, I don't know, you know, this CFO knows so much and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, but I said, you know, this is my chance. I always wanted to lead an organization as a CEO. So I threw my hat in the ring and said, Hey, I'll give it a shot. You know, and if I really was afraid to do it, I would have said, ah, it's not for me. I don't want the pressure, blah, blah, blah. So, I mean, yeah, you have to want it. I think you you you really do.
01:00:05
Speaker
Yeah. No, I love that. ah Throw your hat in the ring and be humble about it and just be a learner and ask people for help. you know that's that's ah That's a theme that you've shared just brilliantly all throughout our conversation, Greg. Thanks so much, Nathan. I appreciate it. Great partnering with you folks. In his book, Crossing the Unknown Sea, the poet and author David White says, The core act of leadership must be the act of making conversations real. The conversations of captaincy and leadership are the conversations that forge real relationships between the inside of the human being and their outer world, or between an organization and the world it serves.
01:00:47
Speaker
Whether you're meeting over Zoom or karting through the back nine, the ability to listen and engage in conversation is where partnerships get built and opportunities emerge. Craig Montanero has enough experience and credibility as a banker that he could run Carney as an autocracy, telling everyone what to do and when to do it. What Craig does instead is harder and much more subtle. He's gathering people around the culture that balances learning with high standards, consistency with ambition, and listening with talking. Cardi Bank is large enough that they could probably get away with focusing on profit at the expense of people and still churn out results for their shareholders, at least in the short term. That's not how they run things. You heard Craig say it.
01:01:35
Speaker
When somebody asks you to get something done, the answer at Carney's always, we'll get it done. Nobody says, I can't help you, I don't have the time. And this philosophy is what Craig is relying on for the future success of Carney Bank. His team is building the destiny of the bank one day at a time, one client at a time, one conversation at a time. Consistent marginal improvement is the unsexy secret to indomitable performance. Thanks again for being a listener of Builder Banker Hacker Chief. We are honored by the gift of Craig's conversation and his leadership lessons. That's what the show is all about. You'll find the link to Craig's book recommendations in the show notes. You've been listening to Builder Banker Hacker Chief, a podcast produced and distributed by Z-suite Technologies Incorporated, All Rights Reserved.
01:02:26
Speaker
I'm your host, Nathan Baumeister, the CEO and co-founder of Z Sweet Tech. This show was co-produced, written, and edited by Zach Garber. Sound engineering was done by Nathan Butler at Nimblewit Productions. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to leave us a review or share the episode. This helps other people to find our show. You can also listen on all major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, and Spotify.