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Episode 47: Suicidal Ideation in Magic with Chase, Part I
95 Plays5 years ago
Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome to the Goblin Lore Podcast!
cw, tw: suicide, suicidal thoughts, depression
In our forty-seventh episode, psychologist-in-training Chase (@manacurves on Twitter) comes on to discuss how Magic: the Gathering has handled suicide and suicidal thoughts in its stories – from Gideon Jura, to Chandra Nalaar, to the Primeval dragon Darigaaz. In an article on our website, too, we have explored some of these concepts and how they were handled in War of the Spark.
This is a sensitive topic that is extremely important to the members of the cast, and we feel like it's necessary to examine the depictions of these mental health crises in popular media. We hope this episode can be educational for those who have not experienced these thoughts and feelings, and comfort and a resource for those who have.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below (thank you to author Anna Borges for compiling this list).
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255)
- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
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You can find the hosts on Twitter: Joe Redemann at @Fyndhorn, Hobbes Q. at @HobbesQ, and Alex Newman at @AlexanderNewm. Send questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to @GoblinLorePod on Twitter or GoblinLorePodcast@gmail.com.
Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle).
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast, and a part of their growing Vorthos content – as well as Magic content of all kinds. Check them out at hipstersofthecoast.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Disclaimer
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers and welcome to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast. Before we start tonight's episode, I want to give a little bit of a disclaimer. Today on the show we are going to be discussing suicide. This is a very important topic and something that we believe not only should be talked about, but also that this cast is kind of set up in a way that we have been wanting to discuss it for a
Episode Origin and Theme
00:00:51
Speaker
while. I initially had this idea for this episode
00:00:55
Speaker
stemming back to suicide prevention month, which is in September every year. But I do think that this is a topic of conversation that really should be frankly discussed and discussed openly when people are comfortable with it. That said, we know that this might be a topic that people do not want to engage in. And we want to thank you for listening this far. And we completely understand if people choose to not engage with this episode.
00:01:20
Speaker
As typical, we are going to look at magic lore for story inspiration, and then we're going to be discussing this as a real world topic.
Introduction of Guest Expert
00:01:26
Speaker
At the end of the episode, we'll be providing some resources, and we also have a special guest with us for this topic tonight.
00:01:32
Speaker
We have brought in another mental health professional that's going to be joining us. This episode is not us providing specific information or providing clinical advice. It is us discussing suicide as both a topic and really kind of dispelling some of the myths about it and kind of trying to break down some of the barriers of the stigma around this topic.
Self-Care Practices Discussion
00:01:52
Speaker
Before we get in too deep, we're going to ask our guests and our co-hosts to answer an introductory question, as is typical on here. And that question for today, because I'm going to start us off on the right note, is simply going to be, what is one piece of self-care that you have been using lately? So once again, I am HobbsQ. I can be found on Twitter at HobbsQ. And what I've been using, as some people may have seen if you're on the Twitters, is geography, which is a group of us that have been posting a photo every day of the month
00:02:22
Speaker
that we have taken and edited or just something that has inspired us. This kind of came about because there's a smaller group of us that really have been trying to get more into this hobby and it's been a hobby that's really important to me. And I've had a backlog of just beautiful photos that I wanted to spend time with and this month has given me really that push to do it and it's been functioning as kind of a self-care for me.
00:02:47
Speaker
My name is Chase. I am a master's of social work student currently. I have my bachelor's in psychology. And I'm on Twitter and my handle is man occurs. As for self care, I find that I have varying forms of self care.
00:03:06
Speaker
You know, magic for me has always been a very important form of self-care and I always have my days carved out for that. But lately I feel it's like very simple. It's, you know, whenever I'm feeling a little bit down or a little bit drained, I really like to go to my local sheets and get like a gigantic soda. And I don't know, I think about like the nice night drive and like driving there and getting my soda. I actually have one right here next to me. It's very soothing. Now I'm going to take a big sip.
00:03:35
Speaker
I'm boring. I get a Coke zero.
Importance of Sleep and Rest
00:03:37
Speaker
I'm like, you know, when, when my cheat day comes up, I'll be getting the Baja blast, but I'm assuming you'll get that at Taco Bell. I was just going to say this one's for you, Arctic Meebo. Well, thank you, Jason. Welcome. We are glad to have you aboard. Yeah. Thank you.
00:04:02
Speaker
All right, I'm Alex Newman, found on Twitter, at Alexander Newem. And one piece of self-care that I've been using a lot lately, it's kind of a thing that's, I don't know, a work in progress that I'll probably always be tinkering with. So I have some different playlists of music that I listen to depending on various things that I'm trying to do with my own mood and things going on in the day. And one of them that I have, I could just call my mantra a playlist. And it's every song on the list
00:04:31
Speaker
in the lyrics either in theme or some of them it's literally just one line or the chorus is a message that I sometimes need to hear. So in a lot of ways I think of this kind of like the sitcom tropes where you know the person has to record a video for themselves that they watched in the future to tell themselves okay you don't need to do this or you should be doing this or and that's this is kind of my version of that.
00:04:56
Speaker
Alex, you're getting really good as this cast has been going on. It's self-promotion and promotion of our Patreon because this is the kind of content that you can find in our Discord channel because we have a channel that's basically music suggestions, which is usually Alex talking about these amazing playlists. Love it. Finally curated, inspirational music channel. It's pretty sweet.
00:05:17
Speaker
And into the Spider-Verse soundtrack, also. Yeah, of course.
Self-Care and Suicide Context
00:05:20
Speaker
Right. Like I said, finally curated inspiration. And I'm Joe Retteman. You can find me on Twitter at Finhorn. That's F-Y-N-D Horn. And I guess the biggest piece of self-care that I've done lately has just been to sleep in.
00:05:40
Speaker
you know that's just been I usually run every day on like six hours of sleep or so that's that's my usual is like six hours and then I'm good to go but like I don't know I've just been needing it and I picture you on only four hours of sleep oh yeah I can I can and do uh insomnia is a wonderful thing but um
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah, but this past week I've just been like, I don't know, just needed more time.
Suicide in Magic Lore
00:06:08
Speaker
And I've decided to carve out a little more time for myself to not just either be puttering around on Twitter or playing video games. And I'm like, you know what? Or cleaning, I guess. But I'm just saying, okay, you know, I am going to spoil myself and go to bed early. You know?
00:06:24
Speaker
saying this is going to make me feel old. But I have to say, learning how to take naps was like revelatory, especially during things like I'd go to cons. And the first couple years was like, I need to make the most of all this stuff because like I spent a long time avoiding conventions because of my social anxiety. And so when I finally I'm like, I'm going to get every moment of every day and then I realized like being burned out and sitting in a panel doesn't really get me anything.
00:06:50
Speaker
but napping through like two hours where there's no programming I care about so that I can be awake and aware and there has been like really good for me. I feel that. I feel that feels.
00:07:06
Speaker
And the coffee just tastes so much better after a good nap or a good long sleep. It's less like you're not just chugging it down. You're just like, ooh, I can savor this and watch the sunrise. At noon when I slept in. Are you a Folgers commercial? Okay.
00:07:33
Speaker
Well, thank you, everyone, because as we're moving along and progressing through this episode, it is self-care is actually very, very important to this topic. And it's something that we're going to be kind of hitting on, especially with our first lore piece. So we actually have brought in a couple of lore storylines to discuss about here. The initial spark for this article or this episode came from an article by our own Findhorn, Joe Redman,
00:07:59
Speaker
which is about Gideon's dealing with the guilt over his role in the death of the irregulars. This is a topic that we discussed initially when it came to the trauma back in like episode two or three. And Joe, you wrote this article that can be found both, I believe, on hipsters, but also on our blog where this was posted. So I was hoping that you might be able to kind of start us off here because this really was what got me thinking about how we could approach this from a cast.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah,
Gideon's Struggle and Ideation
00:08:30
Speaker
so this article piece actually was inspired by a friend of the show Michelle Rapp at Bailfire Strix on Twitter and her article that she wrote for Card Kingdom a couple years back on Gideon dealing with depression and trauma specifically and so
00:08:53
Speaker
I sort of, in the first revelation of the War of the Spark cards and then eventually through reading the novel, just sort of had this realization that what Gideon, the sacrifice that Gideon made to give up his power to protect Liliana while altruistic and that's kind of the surface reading of it,
00:09:19
Speaker
really was kind of his way of committing suicide because throughout Magic's story, since Gideon was introduced, we've seen him essentially try to run himself into the ground time and time again, whether it's running up against an unstoppable opponent like Nicol Bolas, whether it's just trying to exhaust himself to death by
00:09:47
Speaker
planes walking between Zendikar, currently under siege from the Eldrazi, or then under siege from the Eldrazi, and cleaning up Ravnica in the lead up to the return to Ravnica block. Just, he was running himself ragged and trying to find some sort of way to, I think partially, I mean, obviously partially atone for the death of his best friends, the irregulars on Theros.
00:10:14
Speaker
but also you know he felt acutely this weight of caring for the multiverse on his shoulders and because of his you know specific magical power which was invulnerability he had never been able to
00:10:30
Speaker
actually be hurt and so this while it is a kind act while it's a good act in in some way it's i i think in talking with michelle actually too and i and i hope she doesn't mind that i'm sharing a little bit of this
00:10:48
Speaker
You know, she'd said specifically that it did bother her because it seemed it does read once you put that framework of he's giving up his power so that he can finally be done feeling all this pain and hurt and responsibility.
00:11:04
Speaker
that she was upset by it she was angered by it because it's selfish and
Understanding Suicidal Ideation
00:11:09
Speaker
it hurts to take that to take someone you care you know for somebody that you care about to take themselves away from you and that's sort of the same kind of impact it's a different it's a different feel but it's a similar
00:11:23
Speaker
sort of impact that this story made for me um because it seems like throughout this course of gideon's arc he deals with what's called passive suicidal ideation just this ongoing ever-present idea in the back of your head that not that you are trying to die but man it might be better than what's within what you're dealing with right now whether it's emotionally physically whatever and and i was wondering i mean i think this might be an important time to
00:11:54
Speaker
This is more of the real world topic, but I think it's going to be important to establish now that there is a difference when we talk about suicidal ideation between passive and active suicidal ideation. Yes. Yeah. Passive suicidal ideation in my experience has been where you aren't actively seeking to complete suicide, but the feeling of, you know, if I were to be hit by a car.
00:12:18
Speaker
if someone was to shoot me, I would be okay with it. Whereas active suicidal ideation, you're having active thoughts, you have an intent, you may even have a plan in place to complete suicide. Whereas that's not the case with passive. So yeah, this is a distinction that we make, that there is... And one thing that I want to get out of the way here right now is that thoughts about suicide
00:12:49
Speaker
are very common. Thoughts about suicide have happened to probably most people at some point in their life, either active or passive. Thinking about suicide is not enough to get you hospitalized, which is a concern for a lot of people. And part of it is we do try as professionals are making a distinction between
00:13:12
Speaker
As Chase just said, not only are there thoughts present, passive or active, but intent and plan. So, Joe, you're kind of talking about from this story, is this approaching it from this article that you had read too, about what passive suicidal ideation looks like and feels like, because a lot of people don't really have the language for understanding the difference or knowing that there is a difference.
00:13:37
Speaker
Right. Right. And I think that's an important thing, too, is, you know, that is the distinction that you draw there is important because Gideon doesn't plan this final act of his life. It just comes upon him. And I think I do think he seizes on that opportunity to finally
00:14:00
Speaker
release himself from from the hurt that he's feeling. But you know that is that is the distinction is he has never he's never planned it he's never he's thought about what again like you said Chase what it would be like you know it you know it wouldn't be that bad. There are a couple of quotes that Gideon says or you know moments from the lore over the last couple of arcs that that I do think really hammer this home.
00:14:29
Speaker
one of them is this is the the real big one when he confronts nickel bolus right at the end of uh before he planes walks away um bolus says i could kill you gideon anytime i want but i suspect you would not mind dying
00:14:44
Speaker
stay and die or leave and live I'm content either way and the next paragraph is Gideon was shocked to realize that a part of him yearned to stay and You know going on this would be your your your four dot ellipsis He didn't want any more death on his hands. He could just let go and so You know, that's that's kind of the the tough
00:15:12
Speaker
thing to have to reckon with in Gideon's story is, you know, even from the moment that we first meet him as Gideon Jura, you know, dealing in the middle of in the middle of Rise of the Eldrazi and Zendikar, he's like working himself to the bone because of this pain, this hurt that is there in his mind and in his
00:15:36
Speaker
heart um and and it's all of these it culminates in these thoughts of but what if i just didn't not what if i didn't have to feel like this anymore but what if i didn't have to feel and that's the sad yeah but then i've worked with people that talk about the idea that when they get to that point they may actually put themselves into dangerous situations not once again
00:16:02
Speaker
hoping that even, not even hoping that something will happen to them, but not caring if something will happen to them. And so may put themselves into risky situations or think about that idea that, well, somebody else is more important than me.
Gideon's Hero Complex
00:16:15
Speaker
So I would do something if, you know, if I had the chance, um, so to save reckless heroics almost. Yeah. Yeah. And I, so this is a time, you know, we talked about, we've talked about our own struggles on here and my struggles with depression. And I've never been anybody that really has had
00:16:33
Speaker
active suicidal ideation, but I definitely have had the death fantasies and the, you know, if I were to die, who would come to my funeral or, you know, what if I just turn this car into the wall beside me, you know, not ever a plan, not ever intent, but the what if and the just the tiredness of wanting to not deal with depression and it would be better to not wake up, which is what I kind of think of when I think of that passive kind of ideation. Right.
00:17:03
Speaker
I myself have had instances where I've had sort of thoughts and feelings, intrusive thoughts where I've been, you know, like, what if this happened or what if this happened? I mean, these thoughts are common, you know, no one should ever feel ashamed of having these thoughts. But I've worked with clients as well, who have told me similar instances of like, passive suicidal ideation, whether it be, you know, like, you know, like,
00:17:33
Speaker
You know, what if I like just just like veered off the road or what if I am, you know, like if somebody pulled a gun on me, you know, you know, I would just, I would just take stuff like that. And I feel like in this instance, I, it's just kind of similar.
00:17:49
Speaker
to kind of look at it from a point of view in the Gideon story as well, how in that moment, even though he was thinking there was a part of him that wanted to stay, he still had that moment of I could just let it be. The removal of choice altogether, I just learned to let what happened happen.
Critique of Gideon's Story
00:18:10
Speaker
right yeah and it even that passage even does say too that um in the end it was the dragon's indifference that made his decision for him he didn't he didn't decide you know he he willingly accepted that well i'm i'm gonna just react to bolus's arrogance and that will make my decision but you know he didn't say he didn't take that stand and say yeah i want to you know yeah survive yeah are you calling bolus a good guy in this situation
00:18:39
Speaker
Uh, I guess in this small moment I'm just checking just confirming Think you did go to med school. I mean his original art. He's just sitting there learning. He's reading he looked old and he looked hard So you could tell he was in graduate school. How do we not how have we not had chase on the show before now? Friend of the cast. Oh boy
00:19:02
Speaker
So Blue is in the Grixxis wedge. So something that we will get into more in the real world application part, but I do want to button hook the Gideon story with this is Gideon has been presented in our stories quite frequently. And again, like I say, the surface reading of this story of this final story for him can be that he made a noble sacrifice in, you know,
00:19:30
Speaker
in his final act and I think he did in some respects however the decisions and choices that he made the emotional state that led him to that act is not something that you know it's not something that is a model for how to handle
00:19:53
Speaker
suicidal ideation of any kind, you know, whether, whether it's passive or active.
Resources for Suicidal Ideation
00:19:57
Speaker
It's something that, you know, yes, we see, we see some of the good effects in the story, but we also don't forget that just because we didn't see Gideon's funeral on a card, that that part is, that that part gets forgotten. You know what I mean?
00:20:15
Speaker
that that this is this is an it's a compelling story because it gives you both the the upside of what he did to sacrifice him or what his sacrifice meant but also you know there's there's a cost and a weight and and there's a pain even when these people go and so we do want i do desperately want to urge anyone who deals with any of this stuff and myself included you can read that in the article in more detail but
00:20:41
Speaker
We have a lot of resources for dealing with suicidal ideation or suicidal attempts, that sort of thing, and all of those will be linked in these show notes as well.
Depiction of Suicide in Fantasy
00:20:54
Speaker
So part of this pulling this episode together, I actually was wondering because when we had talked before, I did not know really well in the lore how much
00:21:08
Speaker
suicidal ideation or even representation of suicide has been handled in the story. So I did reach out to Borthos Twitter to kind of ask about this. What is interesting is I was linked to two articles, at least. So I was a link to an article about Daragaz.
00:21:26
Speaker
And so these are the next two that we're really going to handle. And one that was about Chandra Nilar that is actually from not too long ago. It was actually from Kaladesh Block. And they actually included a content warning on there. And I think, in part, Wizards recognized that this was not a topic that is discussed or is dealt with in Magic Lore.
00:21:49
Speaker
And so I think that it's because it's a question of how do you handle this in our fantasy game?
Dargaz and Heroic Sacrifice
00:21:54
Speaker
I mean, is this something that I think they're in society in general, there is a shine away from talking about this. But Dargaz's story that isn't really talked about there or isn't really talked on that level. So Dargaz was a legendary dragon from the invasion cycle. He in the lore goes back even further. He was helping out Urza with
00:22:16
Speaker
the Shiv Manarig with the Vyashano and the Dragons. Apparently, Dargaz helped evacuate Sarah's realm. So he was involved with Urza early on and in these plans to help save Dominaria from the Phyrexian invasion. And then when the Phyrexians actually invaded, he took a front line. He was working actively working against the Phyrexians until he was contacted by the planter T. Vishzat.
00:22:42
Speaker
who told him about the legend of these primable dragons and showed him the red dragon who was dead in Shiv and told him how to free these others. So he went, Deregas went and freed Rith and they freed Treva and Crosis and through this whole story, they're becoming more and more powerful and the dragons are kind of
00:23:10
Speaker
as you're becoming more powerful, more immortal, they're pulling Dargaz along with them and they had mortal dragons and they were just sacrificing them along the way and this was upsetting him, like these are his people, these were people he was supposed to protect, but then by the end when they're going to Fricrosis, the last, the fourth, they
00:23:34
Speaker
They take his will from him. It's been a while since I've read the story, but it says,
00:23:50
Speaker
So they get there and they free this dragon and the five of them now, the full complement of these dragon gods come out in their full power. And the first thing they do is they attack the thing that is challenging their dominance during the invasion cycle, the weather light, because it's in the skies. And that is where our heroes for the story are.
00:24:12
Speaker
And during this fight, Dargaz latches onto the ship and trying to rip out the engines, however, Korn touched his mind and brought him back to his senses. And just reading the MTG Wiki thing, it says, Dargaz was horrified at what he had become and so chose to throw himself into a volcano to break the pantheon of the gods and weaken the others so that they could be slain.
Glorification of Suicide in Media
00:24:37
Speaker
um now this is just a summary because we're looking at the wiki and it's these events are in the invasion books i i remember that much but it was a long time ago that i read them was in high school and so i don't remember how much it went into that but i'm pretty sure that was a very quick decision and he chose the heroic death which is a
00:24:57
Speaker
very common fantasy trope and and and i was gonna say alex the invasion blog gave us a couple of these kind of i think more fantasy tropes for how suicide may be handled because we also get baron yes who who basically you know the flavor tax of where this is most poignant is on the card obliterate um baron basically returns to the plane to mourn his daughter who has been killed and his wife and
00:25:25
Speaker
In this grief, he uses basically a spell he promised he would never use. And it says, for his family, Baron made a funeral pyro of Talaria. It's this grief that is so stricken that he basically burns down a plane, including himself, because there's no regard for him. And I think that, in some ways, this is kind of how the idea of suicide has been handled more in fantasy.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah, and framed often in the heroic sacrifice. That one, I remember them framing it not quite that way. That was more his mourning. He was taking out phyrexians, but he was also killing other people. I don't think they really juxtaposed these two, but in a lot of ways, it was like, well, this is the right way to heroic sacrifice. This is the wrong way.
00:26:13
Speaker
And this is really just weird timing of things. I've recently been listening to the Encrypted series by Seanan McGuire. It's an urban fantasy series. And in the most recent novel, like literally listening to, I've been listening to it over the last two or three days, there's some characters that have a conversation about this, the heroic sacrifice, a little bit. They don't go super deep into it, but they talk a little bit about this because the main character of this book runs into someone who has
00:26:43
Speaker
is trying to challenge some great power, because a friend of his went to this power to make a bargain for him, and his friend is gone. She's disappeared, and he hasn't seen her for years. And so he has decided he is going to take on this great force. And while he's talking about it,
00:27:04
Speaker
he mentions just in passing during his plan that he's like, you know, but if it takes my life, I'm going to do it. To which the main character or, you know, here's the quote, I'd rather not die if I don't have to, not unless it's the only way to bring her back. To which the main character responds, noble, but I promise you she wouldn't be amused if you die to get her out of magical mystery jail.
00:27:28
Speaker
And then they go back and forth, it's like, you've never met her, how would you know? And this line, because while I've never met her, I've been socially isolated and I've had socially isolated friends. And none of us have ever said, you know what, I'd be cool if you died for me when you absolutely didn't
Shift in Suicide Portrayal
00:27:44
Speaker
have to. We don't work that way. By which I mean, friends don't work that way. Yeah. I feel like when we're looking at a lot of
00:27:56
Speaker
the characters that we're going to be, we've talked about and that we're going to talk about. I feel like it's kind of nice to see the shift that Wizards is taking with handling of the topic of self-sacrifice and suicide and sort of the heroic sacrifice that we've been talking about.
00:28:11
Speaker
how with, you know, the story that we talked about, we don't really see any mention of, you know, like, hey, that this is, you know, something that is thoughts and feelings, you know, like the sacrifice, suicide, death, and so on and so forth. Whereas with the Shonda story that we'll be getting into, I feel like I think it was a fantastic that they put a warning on
00:28:33
Speaker
because I feel like warnings, I know that a lot of people today make fun of them with the whole trigger warning joke, but triggers can be incredibly impactful to people for a number of different reasons that are very personal. And I feel like the shift from even though, hey, this is a heroic thing that they're doing,
00:28:54
Speaker
It's not something to be mimicked or implemented by yourself. You know, it's something that they say, Hey, this is a serious topic. We're going to let you know that we're going to be talking about this. And I think like, even with the beginning of the podcast, you know, this is an important topic that we feel like we need to discuss, but it can be difficult for some, I think is important to have, you know, and the fact that this is doing that just makes me very happy.
00:29:19
Speaker
And we see, I think, we're gonna move in a little bit just to kind of end our lore piece to talking about Chandra.
Chandra's Struggle and Ideation
00:29:27
Speaker
And this is the Chandra story called Burn, which was featured on the mothership. And that was back in 2017. And this is kind of, it gives you, it was when they had the story going on and we jump into basically, this is Tezzeret trying to get the aether hub working and get the aether hub
00:29:49
Speaker
Basically, we know now from his machinations with Polis, but we basically have Pia and Chandranalar confronting Dovanban.
00:30:01
Speaker
This story has been now that the point where we got to come back, we see that Chandra's mother is alive, who Chandra had believed dead for many years and felt responsible for. And we see there kind of this confrontation between them. And Chase, if you want to take part of the story, I'd be more than happy to let you. Are you just throwing it over to her because she's the guest redhead on the podcast? Is that it? Better representations for redheads and magic. It's just like goblins. We all need better representation.
00:30:29
Speaker
everywhere, all over the place. I love this story when I read it, mostly because I wanted to, I'm just a connections person, so I'm so sorry. When I was reading this, I thought there was a lot of connections to the story with Gideon. Mainly, I, stories, I mean,
00:30:49
Speaker
For plot reasons, pretty much what's going on is Chandra is attempting to make this big sacrifice to just end it all in this way where she's just absolutely building up and building up and building up and building up. And she's about to let loose.
00:31:05
Speaker
But Missa, she just kind of like leans to her and she's like, if you are going to take yourself out, you're going to take me out. And that kind of, you know, that kind of knocked Chandra back. But one of the things that I thought was so impactful about this story that connects with Gideon, that connects with us as real people is the fact that in her mind, she's having all these like thoughts you have
00:31:29
Speaker
We're all saying all these hateful, spiteful things to her and it's just feeding into her rage and her feeling of self-loathing and frustration and her anger. And I feel like that kind of mirrors in with what was happening with Gideon where Nicole Bowles was just like, I don't care. And he was having all of these thoughts where Erebus was talking to him and how they could just sort of just
00:31:51
Speaker
set free and I feel like those are representative of the thoughts that sometimes we have where it's not necessarily you know the not necessarily us speaking to us in a kind way where we sometimes you know say you know you're not good enough you're horrible you do these bad things you're a terrible person you're never going to be this good compare yourself to others and I feel like
00:32:14
Speaker
That you know all the things that she was saying like it doesn't matter You don't matter where for all was even speaking to her and saying you're a monster. You killed all these people You it's your fault that your father died these things kind of mere Reality in a way where I feel like we ourselves may not necessarily be the kindest to ourselves and I feel like that is a lot and
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think that's a really good thing to draw out. I, you know, yeah, it is that moment of, you know, Boral and Erebos and all of that take on our inner voices. And that's, I mean, Hobbes, you got some really good moments, really good quotes in our notes here that are, I think, really exemplary of that.
00:33:04
Speaker
Yeah, so I actually pulled these quotes out because to me, at least from what I found, this is the kind of the closest that we have seen to what I would say is almost active suicidal ideation. We have at one point Chandra basically having this conversation where she
00:33:25
Speaker
It has the self-sacrifice, but it is not in the same way as we've seen it before because it has these thoughts as you guys are saying that she mirrors what people are saying in the story is almost the self-talk that Chandra is having in her head. She says, I can make amends for Mrs. Pashiri, for dad, for mom, for the old women and little kids I killed in the Sanctum of the Stars.
00:33:48
Speaker
For a lifetime of screwing up, all the awful things I've done, all the people I failed, the air between my hands is packed with stars vibrating superheated streaks of light scratched my vision. There's something I can always do. And to me, this is really we're going to get into this. But what she is talking about here is doing and there is a big shift here.
00:34:10
Speaker
Now she says, I could take out Brawl. I could take out the ships and the Ghiraholks, Tezzeret and the Consoles. I could take out all of Ghirapur if I want. It's so easy. I just have to bottle it up and release. I just have to let go. Because it doesn't matter anymore, does it? Everything is ruined. Let it go. Close your eyes. Let it happen. Let it be over. Doesn't matter. I close my aching eyes on Kaladesh and Whisper. I can burn.
00:34:38
Speaker
So yes, there is this element that has that she would be doing it for a purpose, which I understand for fantasy as a trope and for stories is important. But this is the first time that we are talking about she is doing it. And there was a discussion of the doing it. And the self talk that is behind it is very much the cognitions of I have my failure. I've let people down. It's easy.
00:35:04
Speaker
There's something I can do. It's for a lifetime of screwing up. I mean, this is the extreme thoughts that I have often heard from people who are suicidal.
00:35:14
Speaker
Well, and even, yeah, there's the extreme thoughts, but it all does boil down to that one tiny pinprick of, but there's this one thing I can control. And that's something that I think any of us who've had thoughts like this, we've clung to that thing. We've tried to find that one thing that it's like, okay, I can't, I mean, all of us in life, we want some element of control over our situations or our environment or something.
00:35:43
Speaker
We want to know that we are able to influence the world and matter. And so when it feels like everything's ruined, like what Chandra's saying to herself, you look to that one thing, I can burn. And that does ring really true to me. Sorry. No, sorry.
00:36:06
Speaker
Um, when I was reading it, the one line that stuck out to me particularly was, um, it's so easy. Um, and that's something I've also heard from clients and, and, and it's the thoughts that I've had at myself at times, you know, it's so easy, you know, it's just, it's right there. It's, and it's ahead of you sort of that self talking into it. She herself is, she's a weapon herself. And she, she may have had a plan.
00:36:34
Speaker
But she herself, she's the means to complete. And so I do think that that is the shift from passive to active is because all she has to do is just be herself and then it's over. And I feel like that's something that I should be taken to an aspect that she herself was like, it's easy, I can do this. That's all I know how to do. And the other quote that I kind of put in here just to end for towards the end of the story, she's actually
00:37:03
Speaker
is being comforted by the members of the Gatewatch that are around her. And she is saying, she says, damn it, she says through gritted teeth, I can't even, I just, I want to leave, I shouldn't be here, I don't deserve. There almost is now a sense of guilt because she did not do it.
Personal Reflections on Ideation
00:37:24
Speaker
Right. Again, it's that sort of thing of I failed even at this sort of thing. That's something I talk about in the article that I wrote is the times that I have strayed from passive into near active ideation,
00:37:46
Speaker
The thing that stopped me from actually trying to attempt suicide was the fact that I'm really terrified of pain. Like I'm really terrified of hurting myself or doing something to possibly like
00:38:08
Speaker
You know, just just not not do it right, I guess, is the way to say it. And and that that would be worse than not having done it at all. And so then that's what stops me. And so then that feeling afterwards for me has been, well, shoot, you couldn't even do that right. You know, and so it does have that build up effect.
Media's Romanticization of Suicide
00:38:28
Speaker
You know, again, that that's something that rings really true. And it's something that I think the author did a really great job of representing in that story.
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah, I don't have any to contribute to Chandra. So if you'll don't mind me throwing out another just store narrative story thing. So I realized because I mentioned that this is the heroic sacrifice is a very common fantasy trope, but I don't I didn't
00:38:59
Speaker
continue my thought there in that I don't think it's often handled very well. Because it isn't shown in its completion. It's put on a pedestal as well. This is the most heroic thing. But you don't see the consequences. You don't see the people left behind often. You don't see all of these other aspects and all the other things that are going on. And I think that's why it's so important to talk about it. And that's why I'm glad we're doing this cast and everyone's here to have this conversation.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah Which is a really nice segue which is not typical for us into Kind of our our real world correlate. I mean our natural world connection here is obviously suicide But I wanted to use this as an opportunity for us to kind of talk about maybe a little bit from the perspective of people who are in in the field especially chase and I about
00:39:55
Speaker
facts about suicide, maybe some common myths about it. So I have some that I want to hit on, but Chase, is there anything that you really, you know, you want to make sure that we do discuss? I mean, just with the topic that we've been having, I feel like
00:40:14
Speaker
What we've been saying with passive and active, I think that distinction is important to make, or as we already have made. I also think that it's important that we talk about the fact that the thoughts
00:40:26
Speaker
aren't horrible to have and who are not bad to have these thoughts and have these feelings. There have been times where, you know, I've had these thoughts where I'm pretty sure everyone here, as you have stated, have had these thoughts. You should not feel ashamed to have them or seek out help. And I just, I know that we've already said that, but that just always brings true to me when we talk about this topic is that it's your important.
00:40:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree. It's a sentiment that needs repeating for sure. Yeah. And I do think that there is a very real fear. What is interesting about this is people are afraid of talking about it. And what's interesting is people are afraid of talking about it when they actually are thinking of wanting to die. Part of what they're afraid of talking about, though, is that they're going to be forcefully hospitalized just for mentioning it. Yeah.
00:41:24
Speaker
There are horror stories of people that got placed on hold by overeager staff. Ideally, that is not the situation. I have people that I work with on a daily basis that are chronically suicidal, that have had these thoughts for 30, 40 years, and some have never had an attempt. But they have the thoughts, and the thoughts are there.
00:41:52
Speaker
I feel like one thing that I think about is the fact, and this is something that makes me fearful when talking about suicidal ideation, whether it be passive or active, is that
00:42:06
Speaker
certain forms of media tend to sort of romanticize with not glorify Suicide and that is something that has made me nervous Especially when I was an undergrad and you know, like 13 reasons why I came out that was something for me
00:42:24
Speaker
because you could sort of see this spike in this mimicry because it was sort of this beautiful tragic tale of this girl who is dead. You know, she was beautiful and all these things happened to her and it's like this revenge story. But even regardless of the fact that they had trigger warnings and they had hotline information, it was a story that was and continues to, because they are making yet another season, romanticize.
00:42:51
Speaker
and make suicide seem to be this very beautiful thing. And in when we're talking about it in the face of magic, that is also something that makes me nervous with the sacrifice Darragaz and Gideon made to the almost sacrifice Chandra made the sort of glorifying like
00:43:08
Speaker
you know martyrdom that could somehow send the wrong signal to people and while it's not bad to have these thoughts acting on them it just it makes me sad to see it romanticized media and so that's why i'm never talking about it because it is not something that should be glorified like certain media outlets have made it to be
00:43:30
Speaker
I mean, they made. Sorry, can I jump in on that really quick? And I think that's a really good thing to state clearly, too, because I've had conversations with people also about the artwork for
00:43:47
Speaker
heartwarming redemption, which was in War of the Spark. And that's the feature art on the article that I wrote, if anyone's interested in looking at it. It shows Gideon basically in the magic version of the Elysian field, sort of the Greek afterlife, the Greek heaven. And he's surrounded by the irregulars, his friends.
Societal Influence on Media Portrayal
00:44:16
Speaker
Who have not aged who have not aged at all and and yeah, they they're warm, you know greeting him warmly and forgiving him and all this sort of stuff um, and You know like you were saying chase, you know, some people that i've talked to had said like yeah, it's but you know, he he did Something that's not really that we don't want to see glorified that we don't want to see in in that positive light he gets
00:44:43
Speaker
essentially gets rewarded for doing this sort of thing and that's not That's not really the moral you want to take away from that and and while I think it's beautiful artwork, you know Yeah, I can see that point for sure. Well, I mean the the card title alone is heartwarming redemption the flavor text is Kaethion had known war every day of his life now. He finally knows peace Yeah, right. Yeah and um
00:45:13
Speaker
with 13 reasons why I was wondering if that's where you were kind of going when you started because they've actually made this decision to cut the graphic scene of suicide that they had chosen to include in the season one. This was something that's been asked for by researchers in the field since the episode aired. We're now getting ready to enter. They're doing the third season of this show, basically. Really?
00:45:40
Speaker
And they're concerned about the fact that they're, it almost gave a message of somebody who was bullied, committed a school shooting. If only you had been friends with him, you know, it's, it's, it's, it is risky. Yeah. And yeah.
00:45:58
Speaker
I mean, as someone who when it first came out, I watched it and I know this is kind of moving away from the topic of sort of the lore of it. When I watched that episode, I remember when it came out, I was sitting on my couch in my dorm room. My roommates weren't home.
00:46:13
Speaker
and people all over Tumblr, I mean, just everywhere, plastering it over. There should be trigger warnings on this episode. It's horrible. All these things happen. And I was like, what are they gonna show? You know, it's TV. I watched that episode and it was...
00:46:30
Speaker
It was a lot, mostly because the suicide scene that they showed was typically a way to successfully complete suicide. They showed it in a way that if someone were to make it, it would be successful. And that was something, to me, that shocked me that this is a show in high school for teenagers.
00:46:55
Speaker
I mean, when I was a teenager, I thought I knew everything and, you know, I was a mature adult individual, but I was impressionable. And to see that is so impactful. The fact that they showed a way that could successfully complete suicide in a graphic way, they don't pan away. You don't hear stuff. You see it. And that was something that just shocked me to my core that they would show you that.
Content Warnings and Stigma
00:47:21
Speaker
in a way that, like I said, we won't get into details, but in a way that is counter to what most people think of, which would be completely successful in the way it's done in the show, which is not how most people would think of it if they did not see that. And that was a concern from researchers from day one. And this is where we get into what society knows and talks about. I mean, there is a discussion to be had for the fact that they're talking about suicide.
00:47:48
Speaker
For a lot of time, suicide has been a taboo subject. The idea of a content warning or a trigger warning is not necessarily, and even when it started out, was not so that people didn't have discussions. It was to make people aware that this was going to be discussed.
00:48:08
Speaker
Early on when they were being used as this joke of like, haha, it's going to trigger somebody, the reason researchers didn't necessarily like it or didn't want them is because a lot of mental health is about avoidance. And completely avoiding ever thinking about negative things doesn't mean that you're not going to have negative things. But it means that you're not going to talk about them or that you may not be willing to engage with them.
00:48:31
Speaker
The idea behind them really is that you have a choice of how you are engaging with them. That's why we prefaced this show with that. We're not shying away from this discussion. We're acknowledging, though, that some people might not be at the point where they want to engage.
00:48:46
Speaker
But even as somebody who has had a few internships, who has interacted with clients, who have had these sort of thoughts and feelings, I still get extremely nervous, anxious. I feel like I shouldn't be talking about this. I'm saying the wrong things.
Conclusion and Credits
00:49:03
Speaker
I mean, I even have chatted to you guys multiple times, oh God, I'm nervous because this is a topic that is just so
00:49:13
Speaker
It has this negative association. It's very stigmatized in any sort of outlet.
00:49:33
Speaker
If you would like to support the friendly neighborhood gobslugs, you can do so at patreon.com slash goblinlurepod. This episode of Goblin Lore was hosted by Hobbs Q, where you can find on Twitter at Hobbs Q. This episode was written and co-hosted by Alex Newman, who you can find on Twitter at Alexander New M. Engineering, editing, and production for this episode by Joe Redemann, who you can find on Twitter at Finhorne. That's F-Y-N-D, Horn.
00:50:00
Speaker
Our music is by Vintergotten, who you can find at vintergotten.com. That's winter g-a-t-a-n dot com. Logo by Stephen Raphael on Twitter at Stephen Raffle. Goblin lore is a presentation of Hipsters of the Coast, which you can find at hipstersofthecoast.com or at hipsters MTG on Twitter. Thank you all for listening. And remember, goblins, like snowflakes, are only dangerous in numbers.