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Episode 12: The Plotter vs. Pantser Thunderdome
58 Plays1 month ago
Paul and Lindsay step into the arena to settle the plotter vs. pantser debate once and for all, and only one author will emerge victorious. Just kidding. Instead, we break down our real-life processes—Paul as a pantser and Lindsay as a plotter—to explore where these approaches differ, overlap, and surprisingly align, helping you discover what might work best for you.
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Transcript
Introduction to Plotting vs Pantsing
00:00:14
Lindsay Franklin
Hello, everybody. Welcome to Quilling It. I am Lindsay Franklin.
00:00:18
Paul Regnier
And I'm Paul Regner.
00:00:19
Lindsay Franklin
And today we are going to be talking about plotting and pantsing. The age-old debate, maybe even more so than indie versus trad.
00:00:31
Lindsay Franklin
This is like the big the big battle, I feel, the
00:00:34
Paul Regnier
ah
00:00:36
Lindsay Franklin
battle, we say, with quotation marks, um in publishing. You hear this debated all the time in writer circles, which, you know, creative process is superior.
00:00:44
Paul Regnier
Yep.
00:00:47
Lindsay Franklin
So we're going to enter into the Thunderdome.
00:00:48
Paul Regnier
And we're here to tell you that pantsing is the best, right?
00:00:52
Lindsay Franklin
ah No, we are here to enter the Thunderdome and duke it out and to see who emerges victorious. No, that is not what we're doing today.
00:01:00
Paul Regnier
No, I like that.
00:01:00
Lindsay Franklin
we
00:01:01
Paul Regnier
I like the Thunderdome reference. Keep it.
00:01:03
Lindsay Franklin
There we go. Or the Hunger Games, the arena. Is that what it's called?
00:01:05
Paul Regnier
Oh, there you go.
00:01:06
Lindsay Franklin
yeah Yeah. Yeah. We're going to, it's going to be bloody and brutal. We're fighting to the death here today. Yeah.
00:01:13
Paul Regnier
Wait, where's my weapons?
00:01:13
Lindsay Franklin
yeah ah yeah We are going to just talk about these processes and some benefits, potential
Lindsay and Paul's Writing Styles
00:01:22
Lindsay Franklin
drawbacks. and maybe help you, hopefully help you, our listeners, discover what might be a good process for you, or maybe some things to experiment with or try.
00:01:33
Lindsay Franklin
So maybe if you've been listening to us for a while, you either know or you might have guessed that I'm a little bit more on the plotter side of things.
00:01:43
Lindsay Franklin
and But Paul is a very intense plotter. He plans everything in advance way... it know He's laughing because this is not true.
00:01:51
Paul Regnier
Oh, sure. Yeah.
00:01:53
Lindsay Franklin
but So, Paul, you're more on the panting side of things. Is that accurate?
00:01:57
Paul Regnier
Yes. ye
00:01:58
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:01:59
Paul Regnier
You're a little bit country. I'm a little bit rock and roll.
00:02:01
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:02:02
Paul Regnier
Yeah, no, I'm definitely pantser all the way or discovery writer or organic writer or writing in the dark or whatever. There's like a million terms, right? And it's and it's it's not anything like I, you know, like thought.
00:02:18
Paul Regnier
well out in advance. It's just kind of something that came naturally to me, which I think any riding style that works for you should, right? It should be something that sort of comes naturally to you.
00:02:26
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:02:29
Paul Regnier
You're a planning type of person. You like to plan things out. I i ah i imagine you have like a schedule and you like to keep your schedule. I hate schedules. I don't like scheduling anything because it feel it starts to feel overwhelming.
00:02:45
Paul Regnier
I like to just wing it and do impulsive things. And you know so I think sometimes it comes down to personality a little bit too, and and how your brain works, how your creative process works. And even like you could take two people that are discovery writers and their methods could be you know pretty different you know if you actually took a look at how they went about their day.
00:03:07
Paul Regnier
But yeah, I'm definitely on that pantsing discovery writing side.
Lindsay's Organizational Strategies
00:03:12
Paul Regnier
And you're a big plotter, right, outliner?
00:03:16
Lindsay Franklin
Yes. I didn't start there though. I, I definitely started, and this is something that I think is a little, maybe different, but it's like you said with discovery writers where you could take any, you know, five discovery writers and have them talk about their processes.
00:03:30
Lindsay Franklin
It's going to be five different processes. Right.
00:03:32
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:03:32
Lindsay Franklin
And it's really true of, uh, plotters or outliners, um, I think that it's also the same. um And I feel like amongst outliners, I consider myself to be fairly chaotic because you have, which is no surprise, um but you have a lot of people in that space where they are very orderly and organized.
00:03:47
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:03:54
Lindsay Franklin
And that's why that really works for them to sit and plan their stories. And I am a big fan of scheduling and systems and planning and all of that, but it's because I'm so chaotic that I know that I can't get anything done.
00:04:09
Lindsay Franklin
If I don't do that, I will just be all over the place. So it's funny that you mentioned schedules. I happen to have those sitting on my desk. And so for anybody who watches this on YouTube, um they will be able to actually see this.
00:04:22
Lindsay Franklin
This is my planner that I have. Let's see if I can hold it up to the the camera here.
00:04:27
Paul Regnier
Oh man, that looks horrible.
00:04:30
Lindsay Franklin
but So I have these like little, yeah but it's ah making Paul hiss and, you know, shrink away.
00:04:31
Paul Regnier
Wow. Get that away from me right now. ah oh
00:04:39
Lindsay Franklin
He does not like it We, we hates it The precious.
00:04:41
Paul Regnier
just I'm cringing. I'm cringing all over.
00:04:45
Lindsay Franklin
It's like this hour by hour breakdown of my whole week really. And I track all kinds of things in here. And this is to keep me focused because if I don't do this, I just, I'm all over the place.
00:04:54
Paul Regnier
man.
00:04:58
Lindsay Franklin
And I full look up and suddenly it's 7 PM and I've done nothing or I've done a lot of things, but it's just scattered and all over the place. And I'm not actually. like making progress towards my goals.
00:05:09
Lindsay Franklin
And I find that but so frustrating. So that is why I plan and schedule and track things is to keep me keep me on task and to make sure that I'm making progress towards my goals.
00:05:21
Lindsay Franklin
And so that's very much in line with the way that I usually approach writing books. I started in that space of chaos and just writing and pantsing and seeing where the story took me and maybe doing a little brainstorming or drawing or writing, you know, making maps and just kind of stuff like that.
00:05:39
Lindsay Franklin
and then it's like okay, now we're going to write some more. And that process was really fun. I enjoyed that. But it took me three years to finish a draft um working that way.
00:05:49
Lindsay Franklin
And because there was very little direction to what I was doing.
00:05:49
Paul Regnier
wow
00:05:53
Lindsay Franklin
And so writing in the dark was really like what I was doing, but not in the cool way or like the the fun discovery way. It was just, I was like stumbling around and couldn't couldn't find my my story very easily or well doing that.
00:06:08
Lindsay Franklin
So it was where I gravitated towards naturally, but it was not the best fit for actually getting a cohesive story out onto the
Publishing Pressures and Reader Expectations
00:06:16
Lindsay Franklin
page. And that's why I discovered outlining eventually and found that worked a lot better for me.
00:06:21
Paul Regnier
Yeah, and up and a publishing contract, that's going to give you what, maybe a year, maybe six months to deliver your next, especially if it's like a series. So yeah, you're not going to get that three-year leniency if you get under contract.
00:06:35
Lindsay Franklin
No. And that that can be
00:06:36
Paul Regnier
And even if you're not under contract, don't they say, like let's say you're writing a series and you have fans of the first book. Those fans are going to expect ah the next book within that year, within a year, I guess.
00:06:48
Paul Regnier
I think that's what that's what they say. I mean, not everyone follows that. But from what I understand, like after that year, people start to move on.
00:06:52
Lindsay Franklin
Sure.
00:06:56
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah, and they they will get, you know, a little antsy for it. Or yes, just move on.
00:07:00
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:07:01
Lindsay Franklin
um
00:07:01
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:07:01
Lindsay Franklin
i remember when the Story Raiders, so that's book two in my original trilogy or my debut trilogy, um there were some kind of business things happening behind the scenes where the release had to be delayed by a few months. It was supposed to release in May.
00:07:18
Lindsay Franklin
And we had to delay the release until July. and like readers were not happy. They were like, wait a minute. You know, so it was going to be over a year and not by that much, but by that few months, it's hard when you are waiting for, you know, the next installment of a story you're really excited about.
00:07:34
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:07:35
Lindsay Franklin
And especially in this era of binging where we're often able, like we're delivered an entire series of, or a season, entire season of a show that we're really into.
00:07:47
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:07:47
Lindsay Franklin
sometimes all at once or a kind of in rapid succession. where you get right We're used to getting that.
00:07:51
Paul Regnier
It's crazy, right? You don't even have to wait. you don't have commercials.
00:07:55
Lindsay Franklin
Right?
00:07:56
Paul Regnier
Kids don't have patience these days.
00:07:56
Lindsay Franklin
It's it's wild.
00:07:58
Paul Regnier
Where are they going to learn that patience? Back in my day.
00:08:00
Lindsay Franklin
they do Right? They don't understand gathering around the TV at 8 p.m.
00:08:04
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:08:04
Lindsay Franklin
on a Thursday night or whatever for the episode for that week.
00:08:05
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:08:07
Lindsay Franklin
They do not relate to this.
00:08:07
Paul Regnier
Right. The weekly episode.
00:08:09
Lindsay Franklin
Right?
00:08:09
Paul Regnier
And if you missed it, you missed it.
00:08:12
Lindsay Franklin
right? yeah Unless you had the VHS set to record in the days before DVR.
00:08:15
Paul Regnier
Right. ah
00:08:18
Lindsay Franklin
Oh my goodness.
00:08:19
Paul Regnier
Oh my goodness.
00:08:19
Lindsay Franklin
Well, now we have just dated ourselves and everybody knows we are we are writers of a certain age.
00:08:21
Paul Regnier
We're dating ourselves. Yeah. Right.
00:08:26
Lindsay Franklin
it just
00:08:26
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:08:27
Lindsay Franklin
yeah what can we say? yeah So it it can be. Like readers are, they're patient and yet not, you know, they really do want that follow-up.
00:08:35
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:36
Lindsay Franklin
So You do need to find, it and I say this acknowledging that it is important to give yourself space when you need it and time to recharge creatively. I did that for years between my first series and my second series because I really needed to.
00:08:51
Lindsay Franklin
um And there's nothing wrong with that. But if you are trying to keep that nice ah pace that your readers are hoping for with your releases, it is important to find a creative paradigm or creative process that works for you, where you feel you can can put ah you know stories out there into the world on a consistent basis and that the quality of what you're producing is going to be good.
00:09:07
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:09:18
Lindsay Franklin
Because I can certainly pants my way through something and get that out in you know six months, but it's not going to be my best something usually.
00:09:21
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:09:25
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:09:25
Paul Regnier
Right. Yeah. And you know, it's funny because we're, you know, we're doing the plotting versus pantsing, but obviously like one isn't really better. It's just like whatever works for you, you know? And, and I think maybe that's why sometimes it it bothers me when I'll see, I'll get like a book on writing craft and it'll almost be,
00:09:45
Paul Regnier
Like, well, you know you can, but plotting is better. you know You'll be much better if you plot.
00:09:49
Lindsay Franklin
yep
00:09:50
Paul Regnier
like And you'll have people even saying, yeah, yeah i used to I used to be a pantser, but you know then I grew up and and I got more professional. I started outlining and
Stereotypes in Writing Methods
00:10:00
Paul Regnier
and my stories have been much better since.
00:10:00
Lindsay Franklin
boo boo do not like that yeah
00:10:02
Paul Regnier
Like they're in recovery or something. Right. But I will see that. And I've seen that more than once in books. And even like I'll hear um certain like ah speakers say something to that effect.
00:10:13
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.
00:10:15
Paul Regnier
And it's it's annoying, right? as ah As a discovery writer, it's annoying because it's like, hey, it's not like I haven't tried, right? And and that's the thing too. I think we should be open to trying new methods, right? We shouldn't like just dig our heels and and say, no, I'm this type of writer. Because I have tried. I've tried to do a little bit of outlining, a little bit of plotting. And it just for me, it doesn't really work. um And you know maybe it might be cool to kind of each of us talk about like our our method and how how we go about writing a story. Because as a discovery writer, i mean I don't want it to make it sound like like I have zero ideas and I just start writing. And hey, it just comment it like appears out of nowhere. right
00:10:58
Paul Regnier
So for me, this is the method I normally use is I have all these scraps of papers. wonder if I'll see. Here we go. I'm going to show like lots of see all these post-its.
00:11:09
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah. I love it.
00:11:11
Paul Regnier
ah
00:11:11
Lindsay Franklin
I love a good post-it.
00:11:12
Paul Regnier
So I have a bunch of post-its and scraps of paper where, yeah know, I'll just be going about my day and I'll think of an idea, just the little germ of an idea. Like i always like that story that from C.S. Lewis where All of a sudden, he imagined fawn standing under a lampstand in the middle of a snowy forest, and he's carrying like an armload of parcels.
00:11:36
Paul Regnier
And that was like his first kernel of an idea for Narnia.
00:11:37
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:11:40
Paul Regnier
And all Narnia spun out from that one initial thought.
00:11:41
Lindsay Franklin
love it
00:11:46
Paul Regnier
And I love that because like to me, that's how things happen. You'll just get this little spark, right? um And it could be even a what if question. You'll be going like, oh man, I hate traffic. What if my car had hover jets and I could just kind of fly above and take off?
00:12:04
Paul Regnier
I say that because I've been waiting for flying cars since I was a kid and and I've been promised in all these science fiction books and movies.
00:12:07
Lindsay Franklin
Right?
00:12:11
Lindsay Franklin
Back to the future.
00:12:11
Paul Regnier
And they still hasn't happened, right? Yeah, Back to the Future 2 said it was going to happen in 2015.
00:12:13
Lindsay Franklin
Right?
00:12:16
Lindsay Franklin
Right? Nope.
00:12:17
Paul Regnier
10 years later, still no flying cars. I'm really, I feel gypped.
00:12:21
Lindsay Franklin
I feel absolutely lied to.
00:12:21
Paul Regnier
But anyways.
00:12:23
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:12:23
Paul Regnier
yeah um So anyways, yeah. That's what I'll start with. I'll start with that germ of an idea and I'll just sort of let it roll around in my head for a while. And I'll usually jot it down on a scrap of paper so I don't forget it.
00:12:38
Paul Regnier
um And I'll build on that. I'll build on that and I'll try to think about it. And I'll think, oh, what if, and I'll usually start to think of scenes and maybe a little you know rough idea of what kind of characters might be you know in this story and who would the villain be and how would it end? So I usually don't start writing until I have sort of the skeleton of a story, right? I kind of know the characters or at least, you know, the main characters. And I kind of know who the villain's going to be. I have a few scenes in mind.
00:13:10
Paul Regnier
kind of have a, you know, a feel for what the story is going to be. And then I sit down and I'll usually write the first chapter. and I write the first chapter. um First thing I'll do is I'll run it by my wife.
00:13:22
Paul Regnier
I'm like, what do you think? Is this is there anything here?
00:13:24
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:13:24
Paul Regnier
Does sound like anything? And she'll either give me the thumbs up, the thumbs down, or like the medium, you know, like, eh, meh, you know, kind of thing, which is kind of the worst.
00:13:30
Lindsay Franklin
ha
00:13:35
Paul Regnier
But But ah but, you know, and then if it works, if it's like, oh, yeah, that's cool. Like what happens next? If they say what happens next, if my wife or whoever else I, you know, share it with, then, you know, OK, I think I've got something, especially if you're excited about it.
00:13:50
Lindsay Franklin
We love that question.
00:13:51
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:13:52
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah, we love that question.
00:13:52
Paul Regnier
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:53
Lindsay Franklin
What happens next?
00:13:55
Paul Regnier
What happens next? So then I know I have something and then I'll go and like I said, I'll sort of discover and I'll have little checkpoints along the way that I know I'm trying to head towards. But things change along the way. New characters will emerge. I'm like, oh, I like that character. Characters will change a little bit and their personalities will kind of get more rich and interesting and um Yeah, so that's how I do it. And editing along the way, I'll have like people read it along the way, see what they think. But that's basically my process. So there you go. There's my discovery, my sloppy discovery process. There might be a lot of rewrites along the way, but that's what works for me.
00:14:36
Paul Regnier
So what about you, Lindsay? How do you how do you go about writing?
00:14:40
Lindsay Franklin
It is so fascinating to me because my process is so similar to that.
00:14:46
Paul Regnier
Oh, interesting.
00:14:47
Lindsay Franklin
Yes. And it
00:14:48
Paul Regnier
i thought you were going to say, that's totally wrong. That's so messy.
00:14:51
Lindsay Franklin
No, no, not at all.
00:14:52
Paul Regnier
ah
00:14:53
Lindsay Franklin
And if if you've ever heard me teach on anything that brushes on this at all, I will get on my soapbox a little bit because I feel, even as a non-discovery writer, I feel just as salty as you do about about it when people say that there's only one way to do it and that outlining is the correct way or plotting is the correct way.
00:15:12
Paul Regnier
you know Right.
00:15:16
Lindsay Franklin
That really bothers me. And it also bothers me when people act as though somebody who outlines or plots that there's no creativity in that or that it's less because that's what we hear on the other side sometimes is that the way to be a real artist artist you know because you hear that on the discovery side or the pantsing side is the way to be a professional is that you have to outline and then on the other side we hear the way to be a real artist is you have to just discover it you know and I think both of those are wrong um it's Because we are all, all storytellers are doing the same things.
00:15:25
Paul Regnier
o
00:15:29
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Right.
00:15:42
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:15:46
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:15:52
Lindsay Franklin
It's just when in the process we do those things. That is my theory on this. And the more that I hear individual writers talk about the details of their process, the more convinced I am of this.
00:16:05
Lindsay Franklin
Because there is so much of that you do that is exactly the same as what I do in in my process. And especially those early stages look almost identical. I will have post-its literally, or um, a lot, i have a lot of notebooks as well.
00:16:14
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:16:19
Lindsay Franklin
So I'll write, write things down in notebooks. Um, but just jotting those little ideas, seeds, those little germs, um, you know, writing those things down. And I think the big difference is that a lot of that figuring out yes, with the skeleton, yes, with the characters and kind of getting that clear in my mind in advance, But then as I'm working through what the story is going to look like, you're finding that out more as you start to draft. So you're sitting there writing chapters and maybe revising those and figuring out what works and expanding as you go. And I'm doing that same work, but it's as I'm expanding an outline rather than as I'm drafting chapters. So I will look at my skeleton, my outline skeleton, which I i use different methods and sometimes combine them because again, i am chaotic. And so I don't have one way that I do this, but I will have index cards sometimes.
00:17:15
Lindsay Franklin
I've done post-its or I'll have a notebook or i will have just like a word doc that has blank bullet points. And I have kind of structural things filled in there, like it'll say the first ah plot point or, you know, first pinch point or whatever structure you're using, you know, might have the midpoint or, that you know, climactic sequence and all those different, you know, big structural moments. And looking at that blank,
00:17:42
Lindsay Franklin
sheet with all of the bullet points and each bullet point represents a scene, right? So my brain works out of order, which I don't think is unusual, but, you know, so I may have like how Lewis had that, that vision of, um you know, the fawn with the the packages and everything.
00:18:00
Lindsay Franklin
Well, that wasn't how the book opened. That was, you know, somewhere in, you know, the first act that's happening, right?
00:18:03
Paul Regnier
Right. Hmm.
00:18:06
Lindsay Franklin
um So that's how my brain works too, where I'll get scenes or ideas or thoughts about different parts of the story and I can then fill that in on my beat sheet, like structurally, where does it feel like this goes?
00:18:19
Lindsay Franklin
And I'll kind of pencil it in somewhere and figure out, okay, well, how would I get my characters there? So if I'm doing this with Narnia, I might have that fawn scene there.
00:18:30
Lindsay Franklin
Well, okay, what's going to happen to get, how do we get to that place where that fawn is? Where is that fawn? You know, where is he?
00:18:36
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:18:37
Lindsay Franklin
So start maybe doing a little world building and then thinking, okay, Is that Fawn my main character? Well, no, probably not. So who's my main character and how's she going to get there to that world and sort of backtracking from there, that would help me figure out what the beginning of my story is going to look like.
00:18:51
Lindsay Franklin
And so that's kind of how I do that.
00:18:51
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:18:54
Lindsay Franklin
And that's all before I start writing actual chapters. And
Creative Deviations and Story Structure
00:18:58
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:18:58
Lindsay Franklin
so oftentimes, I'm not going to say always because it did not work this way for me with my last series and especially the second book in that series.
00:19:06
Lindsay Franklin
But in theory, i would have that whole beat sheet filled out where it has every scene I think I'm going to need, which will change as I'm drafting. I will often be adding things in like, oh, no, wait, I actually need three scenes to get from here to there rather than the two scenes I thought I was going to need or something.
00:19:24
Lindsay Franklin
But I will have this whole map of this is where we are going from here to here to here so that when I sit and start drafting, i can just build those scenes and I always know where I'm going.
00:19:35
Lindsay Franklin
So that helps restrain that kind of ah propensity that I have for wandering or getting off track or just you know going into weird places.
00:19:45
Lindsay Franklin
Now, That said, if I am drafting and something really exciting comes up that I am like, wait a minute, and I start wandering and in a direction that feels exciting and like it would enrich the story, i will give myself freedom to do that because that can be something that, you know, happens during the creative process where it's like, oh yeah, no, I didn't think of that during outlining, but I definitely want that in the story. That has absolutely happened before. So people who are are very kind of down in their outline and very married to it, that would be a piece of advice I would have for them is just make sure that you leave yourself open to those little serendipitous creativity bursts that can happen when you are drafting. And don't be afraid to deviate from your outline because it is it's not gospel. Like you don't have to do what's on the outline if something cool presents itself you know during the process. But all of those pieces of what you're doing, what you're describing, it's so relatable to me because I'm doing all those same things. It's just an outline form. And I think...
00:20:51
Lindsay Franklin
part of this is because I hate rewriting. I hate it. Once I've drafted a scene, I hate having to go back and rewrite it. and It's really hard for me to do that.
00:20:58
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:20:59
Lindsay Franklin
I would rather kind of interrogate the scene in my brain or interrogate that part of the story and figure out, does this work? Do I need this? What am i trying to say here? And kind of figure that out in advance so that then when I go and draft the scene, I can maybe get it right on my my first try because I've kind of done the revisions mentally.
00:21:21
Lindsay Franklin
in advance. It doesn't always work that way. Of course, I have revisions. So this is not saying I write perfect first drafts. No, I wish, but um no. but ah But I do struggle with revisions.
00:21:32
Lindsay Franklin
And I know some authors love to do revisions and love rewrites. And that's like an exciting part of the process for them. It's very hard for me because once it exists in draft form or in scene form, I have a harder time mentally shifting gears and reimagining that scene to be something different.
00:21:48
Lindsay Franklin
So
00:21:48
Paul Regnier
Because it feels like it already actually happened in a way, yeah.
00:21:51
Lindsay Franklin
it exists already.
00:21:52
Paul Regnier
You know, well, and I hear that's one of the differences between the discovery writers and the plotters is the discovery writers usually have to do a lot more rewrites.
00:22:03
Paul Regnier
And the, whereas the plotter maybe has to do a little bit more work up front, you know, with the outlining and everything. But then once they've got that locked in, they can kind of just go because it's already all, unless like you said, unless along the way you think, oh, wait, no, this other direction would make it better.
00:22:22
Paul Regnier
But I'm interested. So you said you mentioned like you called it a beat sheet, which almost sounded like Hollywood, like screenplay style.
00:22:27
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:22:30
Paul Regnier
um But it's it's based on an outline, but it almost sounds like a more scaled down outline version, because I've seen some examples of outlines that are ridiculous, like.
00:22:40
Paul Regnier
you know, here's scene one and then they have like paragraphs written out, but yours almost sounds like maybe just a couple of quick sentences. This character gets here and these things have to happen to move on to the next. Am I describing that accurately?
00:22:55
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, for me, absolutely. And yes, I've seen those kind of very expanded outlines that you're talking about. And that to me is almost, it's almost like a draft zero at that point where you've got, you know, everything really described in detail. um And that's not how mine look.
00:23:11
Lindsay Franklin
Every once in a while, I'll have something like that when I have that scene just very clear in my mind and I have all that detail during the outlining phase.
00:23:16
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:23:19
Lindsay Franklin
I might put that in there just so that I don't forget what I'm doing when it comes time to actually draft that scene. but Usually it is one sentence or two, maybe three about kind of the point of that chapter, the point of that scene, um what's happening, what is the like little piece that like, what's the story nugget that I'm trying to kind of deliver to my reader in, in this particular scene and you know, it's, it's helping me connect the dots and get from point A to point B, you know, and just moving along in a way that is really cohesive. So yes, they are like short bullet points almost of of the book. And so it might have
00:24:02
Lindsay Franklin
65 bullet points on it, but I don't usually, I don't have like a 60 page outline like some people do where it's just this very long document.
00:24:08
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:24:09
Lindsay Franklin
It's a lot shorter than that for me. um And, you know, i went into writing the unraveling of Emlyn Dulane with most of my third act was just blank bullet points.
00:24:21
Lindsay Franklin
And that was so terrifying.
00:24:21
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:24:23
Lindsay Franklin
Like, What does this look like? I don't know before I start writing chapter one.
00:24:26
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:24:28
Lindsay Franklin
And that was so unsettling to me. um And I was and I feel like if you know that about me and know how my process normally works when you read that part of the story.
00:24:39
Lindsay Franklin
um hopefully it doesn't feel like it's disjointed or anything in a bad way. But I was like speaking through Emlyn, my point of view character in the story as she's like, I don't know where I'm supposed to go.
00:24:52
Lindsay Franklin
I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
00:24:53
Paul Regnier
ah
00:24:54
Lindsay Franklin
How do I fix this? Like, that's me as the author being like, I, my bullet points are, they're not here. They're not on my sheet. And I don't know how to end this story.
00:25:02
Paul Regnier
suffer
00:25:03
Lindsay Franklin
um And so that like emotion was poured into that, that part of the story.
00:25:07
Paul Regnier
I kind of like that though. You know, it's interesting. I had, um when I was writing one of my books, it was Bard Tidings. the The characters end up in this cave and one of them gets trapped behind a wall and they're like, hey, how do we get to each other? And I was going over this chapter with my critique group, with my writer's critique group. And I had what my main character say, like the other character was like, how do we get to you? And he's like, I don't know.
00:25:32
Paul Regnier
And I had a critique group member saying, no no, no, you can't have a character say, I don't know. They always have to go in. And I'm like, what do you mean? Why? and they were saying like, no, no, they have to be active.
00:25:43
Paul Regnier
They have to do, you know, all those little rules that you hear about. And I'm like, I want my characters to resonate and feel true.
00:25:46
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:25:50
Paul Regnier
If I was in this situation, i would say, i don't know. I guess I'm just going to try to figure it out because they're not like some...
00:25:56
Lindsay Franklin
ah No idea. Right.
00:26:01
Paul Regnier
spelunking expert, they're in a cave and someone just got trapped behind a wall.
00:26:02
Lindsay Franklin
Right. Right.
00:26:05
Paul Regnier
What would you say?
00:26:06
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:26:06
Paul Regnier
I like to put myself in the character position and say, what would I do? you know Because then to me, that feels real. That feels like...
00:26:12
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:26:13
Paul Regnier
So I don't it was a weird moment like where there was like a back and forth, but I just thought, like well, why not? like Who says, like who's making these rules? And if it is a rule, I'm about to break it.
00:26:23
Lindsay Franklin
Right. Yeah.
00:26:25
Paul Regnier
yeah Because it feels true to me.
00:26:27
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:26:28
Paul Regnier
So I think your your motivation and your um part, I guess, your confidence in writing is is it can be a lot with like, well, what would happen if I was in this situation?
00:26:39
Paul Regnier
What would I do? provided that the character is somewhat similar to you. right like if If you're writing about some mentalist, yeah, you they probably would have you know have chess moves five moves in advance, and maybe they're a little more smart.
00:26:45
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:26:54
Paul Regnier
But if you're writing like just sort of an everyday guy kind of character or everyday girl, whatever, whoever your main character is, then write. You want it to be real. You want it to resonate. You want it to be like, yeah, in that situation, I'd be like, yeah, I don't know.
00:27:06
Paul Regnier
I guess we could try this or something. So I think that's fine that you did that.
00:27:10
Lindsay Franklin
Right. And that's,
00:27:11
Paul Regnier
That that seems like it rings true.
00:27:15
Lindsay Franklin
Right. And I think that you know it's it's almost a misinterpretation maybe. like I understand where your critique partner was coming from with that note where we are told that our our characters are supposed to be active and they're supposed to be proactive.
00:27:29
Lindsay Franklin
But a character who doesn't know what to do but is still trying to solve the problem and isn't just
00:27:35
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:27:37
Lindsay Franklin
passively sitting there waiting to be rescued is still being active.
00:27:39
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:27:40
Lindsay Franklin
They're still being proactive.
00:27:40
Paul Regnier
right
00:27:41
Lindsay Franklin
They're trying to fix it. They don't have the knowledge in that moment to say, okay, here's our plan. This is what we're to do.
00:27:47
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:27:47
Lindsay Franklin
And and it's going to work.
00:27:48
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:27:49
Lindsay Franklin
and And then it does, you know, that you're right that that doesn't feel real. But that character sitting there going, you know what, I have no idea, but let's try this. Or maybe I'm going to go look over here and do that.
00:27:59
Paul Regnier
Let's try this. Right.
00:28:02
Lindsay Franklin
They are being active. They are trying to solve the problem.
00:28:03
Paul Regnier
Yes.
00:28:04
Lindsay Franklin
And so it it can be, both things. And so it's almost a little misinterpretation of that advice that your character has to be trying to solve the story problem or whatever, you know, that it's true, but that doesn't mean they have all the answers because that becomes very boring, I feel, to read and unrealistic where we don't always have all the answers.
00:28:08
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:28:19
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:28:24
Lindsay Franklin
And because that story I was writing was you know, this like meta fiction kind of thing where she's, you know, she's kind of trapped in a story world and she's aware of story tropes and how stories work.
00:28:36
Lindsay Franklin
So she's literally like, she's trying to solve the story problem, but she doesn't have all the pieces of the plot. And so she's speaking about the story in this very like direct way because it's a story about stories.
00:28:48
Lindsay Franklin
And so, um you know, that's why her thought process so directly mirrored my own process in writing this is because she's aware of tropes and how stories work.
00:28:49
Paul Regnier
Hmm. Hmm.
00:28:55
Paul Regnier
o
00:28:59
Lindsay Franklin
And so she's trying to find the pieces. And you know she probably doesn't say this, but she could very reasonably have said in that moment, I am in the climax. I understand that we're headed towards the final battle, but I just don't have all the pieces yet.
00:29:10
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:29:12
Lindsay Franklin
Where is the fight you know where is the sword or the relic or the whatever that I need to you know so to defeat the monster? you know like She could have said that directly to the reader and it would have been okay for her to say.
00:29:24
Lindsay Franklin
that in this particular story yeah it it it was really fun to write that story where it's like the protag she knows you know what she's in and and what she's doing in that moment but yeah it's no no no go ahead
00:29:24
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, I like that.
00:29:36
Paul Regnier
Years ago... oh sorry. go ahead. I was just going to say years ago, like when I first got started in writing, I wrote screenplays ah because i was I did film and in college. And I thought, oh, I like story. I like to write. Maybe I'll do screenplays because I like movies. And one of my first screenplays I wrote was, it was called Stuck in the 80s. And it was about this character that worked in a video rental store like a blockbuster back when they existed. and um But he was really into 80s movies.
00:30:08
Paul Regnier
and ah might be lightly based on real life author. um So anyways, so lightning strikes the blockbuster or whatever, the video rental store one night, and then he gets sucked into an 80s movie.
00:30:22
Paul Regnier
But he knows 80s movies so much that he takes all those common tropes and things, and he knows what's coming and he goes, okay, I guess to get out of this, I just have to end the movie.
00:30:24
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:30:32
Paul Regnier
How do these movies end? So I totally relate with that where it's fun to kind of like almost be aware, like that meta, I'm aware of the story and how stories work.
00:30:34
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:30:37
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:30:41
Lindsay Franklin
yes
00:30:42
Paul Regnier
So I love that concept. It's so fun. I never sold that screenplay, but I always liked that story.
00:30:47
Lindsay Franklin
Oh, man.
00:30:49
Paul Regnier
um
00:30:49
Lindsay Franklin
I feel like that would sell now because there's so much of that nostalgia, I feel, as as you know writers and and viewers and you know readers of a certain age.
00:30:59
Lindsay Franklin
As we age, um those of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s, there's such a like the nostalgia, and there's so much more of that these days.
00:30:59
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:31:02
Paul Regnier
You get the nostalgia. ah
00:31:07
Lindsay Franklin
I feel like that screenplay would sell now. Go pitch it, Paul.
00:31:12
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Hey, Spielberg, give me a call.
00:31:14
Lindsay Franklin
Right? Come on, man.
00:31:15
Paul Regnier
um yes you know I thought it would be it it might be interesting. like I always like when um I'm listening to... Because we're kind of talking in like um almost conceptual, theoretical like writing
Character Goals and Storytelling Logic
00:31:29
Paul Regnier
um methods.
00:31:31
Paul Regnier
And I always like when someone gives me a specific, like how they do it with a specific example. So I thought maybe it might be helpful if I just really quickly gave an example of like this last book that I wrote.
00:31:44
Paul Regnier
um And again, this won't be too long, but it started, it's the the book I recently launched is called The Most Dangerous Pet Shop. And my initial idea was like, oh, what would a pet shop look like in a fantasy world? I mean, would you sell dragons? Would you sell griffins? Like, what would that be like? That would be a crazy pet shop. So that was like my initial spark of the idea.
00:32:06
Paul Regnier
And then i was, again, i'm I've been writing middle grade lately. So I'm like, OK, well, how would like in the book, he just turns 13. How would a 13 year old boy like end up in that in that world, in that pet shop?
00:32:21
Paul Regnier
So then I thought, okay, maybe it's like a family thing that gets handed down and maybe his family has a connection with this fantasy world. So they have a portal. And so that's kind of how I started his grandpa and introduced him. Hey, you know our family through generations, we've been taking care of this pet shop in another world and come, I'll show you the ropes. But then the grandpa gets stuck back in his world and the boy gets stuck in the fantasy world and now he has to figure it all out.
00:32:46
Paul Regnier
right So that was sort of like the inciting event, like, oh, no, I'm stuck here in this crazy pet shop with these mythical creatures, and how am I going to make this work?
00:32:47
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:32:55
Paul Regnier
And again, I'm sort of like discovering this as I'm writing it. I just had those initial thoughts. Okay, he goes there, he gets stuck, and how is he going to get out, and what are his goals?
00:33:06
Paul Regnier
So I think one of the main things, like whether you're discovering or not, is to start with, like what does the character really want? like what is what What is driving them? and And once they figure out what they really want, what are the things that are coming against them?
00:33:22
Paul Regnier
So that's kind of where I started. and And the main thing was, how do I get back to my world? How do I get out of here? How do I get back to my grandpa who's stuck back in the real world?
00:33:33
Paul Regnier
um So that was the first thing, right? And he has no idea. The portal got broken. He can't go back there. So now he's got to figure out how am I going to get another portal? So the only way he's going to do that is to meet some people from this world.
00:33:47
Paul Regnier
And like so far, like but then it's weird. It's like, how do I say I'm from another world? And then that's when I want to introduce like the mentor kind of character. so I thought, what if there's a one of the pets can be a mentor?
00:34:00
Paul Regnier
Because they're talking animals.
00:34:01
Lindsay Franklin
Fun.
00:34:02
Paul Regnier
Right. so then he meets But then I thought, okay, how do you make that interesting?
00:34:04
Lindsay Franklin
I love that.
00:34:06
Paul Regnier
So I have him meet this little kitten that has sort of untold powers. So there's like a little mystery about, like is this kitten dangerous? Because he's magic. He has magical powers. But he talks, and he's going to tell him about the world.
00:34:18
Paul Regnier
Oh, you broke your portal. Well, that's hard. You've got to go about a lot of different things to get it. So he's meeting characters. So in other words, like you start with this goal and that naturally sort of lends itself to questions that you have to answer.
00:34:29
Lindsay Franklin
Mm
00:34:33
Paul Regnier
And by answering them, you're writing the story. And then it's like, okay, now he's got to a cat that says, you got to go do this. So now like that, the story's moving along. He's got to go to, oh, he finds an enchanter. Oh, I can make you mirror, but first you got to do these things for me. Oh, great. Now I've got to do... So anyway, and then who's coming against him? like All these creatures and these difficult quests he has to do to get back.
00:34:57
Paul Regnier
So it sort of just unfolds because you ask that initial question, what does the character want? What's stopping him from getting those things and accomplishing those things? And then the end is when he accomplishes those things. He restores the portal, gets back to his world, and you know it's peaceful once again, semi-peaceful. But anyways, so I don't know if that's helpful. Hopefully that's helpful, but that's sort of like how I did that book.
00:35:26
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah. And there's, you can see there's like a, there's a logic to it. There is a, and in fact, logic is driving it.
00:35:31
Paul Regnier
Yes.
00:35:34
Lindsay Franklin
It's not just that there's a logic to it. It's, it's looking at where you want to go or as, as you're saying ah what the character wants, you know, what is, what is the objective that we're driving for here?
00:35:40
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:35:43
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:35:46
Lindsay Franklin
What are all of the things that need to happen? Or, you know, if you kind of have a scene that comes to mind early in the process, that's later in the story, you may need to work backwards.
00:35:56
Lindsay Franklin
Like, how did we get here? Which we kind of talked about with the Narnia example where, you know, that, that was something that was happening kind of in the middle of the story.
00:36:01
Paul Regnier
who
00:36:05
Lindsay Franklin
Okay. So how did we get there? What, you know, what happened to bring us to that snowy forest with the fawn? And so their logic is driving all of it or should be because, you know, how do we get there?
00:36:15
Paul Regnier
yes
00:36:18
Lindsay Franklin
How do we get where we're trying to go? Or how did we end up in the space that, you know, popped into my head randomly or whatever. So, it's, and thinking through that, i think is where the differences in people's personalities or their brains or just their creative process, that's when it comes into play is what, where are you when you're able to think through the logical progression of, you know, how these events should be unfolding and what a good, you know, what is some good emotional energy that's going to drive that story?
00:36:50
Lindsay Franklin
Because that's kind of what story arc is too. um You know, we've got plot and we have you know the character development and the world building and all these things are working together and there's just this like energy that drives the story and that's kind of the arc of things. So there's a lot in play there and I think that the more you study about story, whether that's through craft books or just consuming a lot of story in an analytical way where you watch really good movies and read really good books and decipher and think about what makes this story work.
00:37:22
Lindsay Franklin
Why does this ending work? Or why does this ending fall flat? Or, you know, those kinds of things.
00:37:25
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:37:27
Lindsay Franklin
The more of that that you embed into your subconscious, I think the, um I don't want to say easier, but the more natural it is to answer those questions of, okay, well, what am I going to need to make this happened, what obstacles can I throw in my character's path that's going to make it more difficult?
00:37:36
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:37:45
Lindsay Franklin
Because of course, we are trying to make, we as the storytellers are trying to make our character's goals more difficult to achieve, right? We're putting obstacles in their place because that's what ah ups the tension in the story.
00:37:59
Lindsay Franklin
um You don't want to make everything too easy. So there's a lot that's kind of happening in in that process, but the more that you have solid story technique in your brain,
00:38:10
Lindsay Franklin
You don't even really have to actively think about that all the time while you're answering these story questions. It's just stuff just feels natural and kind of makes sense as you you work through your your story questions and figuring out how you're going to get your character from zero point A to point Z.
00:38:27
Lindsay Franklin
And that's really the thing for me is we all, whatever the creative process is, we all
00:38:27
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:38:33
Lindsay Franklin
end up in the same space. And that's not to say that every book is of the same quality or that every book is for every reader.
Perceptions of Plotting vs Pantsing
00:38:41
Lindsay Franklin
Certainly not. We know that. But we all ideally end up with a cohesive story that has a a satisfying structure to it. We took our readers on an emotional journey. Like this is the goal of every storyteller. And you're reading, if you're reading widely, you are reading books that were pantsed that get you to that point.
00:39:03
Lindsay Franklin
You are reading books that were heavily outlined to get you to that point. And usually, at least I feel like we can't tell the difference by the time something gets to print, even as an editor, i have no idea if that writer, I can't tell if that writer is a plotter or a pantser.
00:39:11
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:39:18
Lindsay Franklin
If they did their job well, then it's just a great story.
00:39:20
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:39:22
Lindsay Franklin
And so, you know, Stephen King is a pantser.
00:39:22
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:39:24
Lindsay Franklin
And there are plenty of professional writers out there who are absolutely outliners. Most you know screenplay writers are going to be outliners because it's very like strict with movie structure and all of that.
00:39:33
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:39:35
Lindsay Franklin
So it's just, it really is about what helps you as the storyteller get from point A to point Z. How do you get your story there and to that end goal of having a satisfying, cohesive story?
00:39:50
Lindsay Franklin
Doesn't matter how you get there, just as long as you arrive at that point, then you're doing it right.
00:39:54
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah. And one last thing too, I was going to mention, not only do those questions and those motivations help with the story arc, but also character arc too, in a way, like, in other words, my main character was 13, he just turned 13 in that book. So it's almost that in-between zone between, oh, I'm not...
00:40:14
Paul Regnier
really a kid anymore, but I'm not quite an adult.
00:40:15
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:40:16
Paul Regnier
I'm just moving into this young adult. So there's almost like that question of what am I capable of? What can I accomplish on my own? like if i'm Because you know you're a kid, you usually rely on your parents or whoever your caretaker is.
00:40:30
Paul Regnier
And then it's like, oh, I'm starting to learn. So that was something I explored as this character, he is stuck on his own and he has to figure this all out. These kind of these big adult problems.
00:40:42
Paul Regnier
So he's kind of learning through the story as he's solving these things, what he's capable of and like, oh, you know what? Maybe I'm stronger than I thought. or more capable, and I'm kind of building my confidence.
00:40:53
Paul Regnier
So there's a lot of things that you can interweave with the story arc and character arc, and they're kind of all working together, you know almost in the same line.
00:41:01
Lindsay Franklin
right
00:41:03
Paul Regnier
and And that can be cool too. But it all just starts with those simple questions. What does the character want? What's the situation he's stuck in? What's coming against him?
00:41:13
Paul Regnier
And what's going to happen to him if he can like sort of overcome some of his weaknesses or whatever?
00:41:20
Lindsay Franklin
right
00:41:20
Paul Regnier
But yeah, so the last thing, it looks like we're we're starting to run to the end here. I wanted to, for all the discovery writers out there, I wanted to show
Writing Craft Recommendations
00:41:30
Paul Regnier
this book. I don't know if this is showing up. It's called Story Trump's Structure.
00:41:35
Paul Regnier
and This is by Stephen James, and it's very great for the discovery writing path because not only does he assure you that it's okay to write like this, but he kind of says like what's powerful about it and what to keep in mind and maybe Um, some things that discovery writers might be a little weak on that we can learn from the outliners out there, like how to improve like certain parts of the story. Um, but a lot of good stuff in that book. Um, so that would be my recommend for all the discovery writers out there.
00:42:10
Lindsay Franklin
Yes. And I have, I know that I mentioned this on our, you know, favorite writing craft ah books episode, but for all of you outliners out there, um I typically do recommend story engineering by Larry Brooks and he The only place where i kind of depart with Mr. Brooks a little bit is he does get a little, you know, something about outlining.
00:42:34
Lindsay Franklin
I know that he feels like that is the preferred way to do things. So just I am putting a little asterisk next to my recommendation, just saying I don't necessarily agree about that. But if you are bent that way or wondering if you might be bent that way or maybe, you know, could benefit from um from that, it's a fantastic book about that.
00:42:54
Lindsay Franklin
outlining and, um you know, building kind of all of those really complex threads that we're talking about when it comes to character development and and plot and arc and all of that and braiding that all together in a way that is cohesive.
00:43:08
Lindsay Franklin
That book was really transformative for me in trying to get, move away from pantsing, not because pantsing is bad, but because it wasn't working for me. I wasn't able to, you know, finish my drafts.
00:43:20
Lindsay Franklin
um in a reasonable amount of time. um And I needed something that worked better for my brain. And so this book really was kind of the one for me that transformed my process.
00:43:31
Lindsay Franklin
So I do recommend that if you're thinking about ah maybe wanting to outline, and even if you're not an outliner, there's a lot of good nuggets in there, but just know that he gets a little sarcastic sometimes about, about pantsing, which I do not appreciate, but there's snooty, a little snooty, a little bit.
00:43:46
Paul Regnier
Snooty. He's a snooty outliner.
00:43:50
Lindsay Franklin
And, you know, he's, he is called, I think his socials is like story doctor or something like that. So he kind of works on that side. I believe he's a writer as well, but he, um you know, on that editorial side, sometimes you see a little more of that attitude about, you know, outlining being the way.
00:44:07
Lindsay Franklin
And I think that's because as editors, we will sometimes see a little bit more story mess, if I can use that that term. And I do not mean that condescendingly at all, because i have a lot of story mess in my stories, too.
00:44:21
Lindsay Franklin
It just is all kind of happening in a different spot. But we We sometimes see more of that but when it gets to the editor. There's just more cleanup that has to be done a lot. And so I think that editors will sometimes get that in their minds that, well, we wouldn't have to be doing X, Y, Z, or it's so much cleaner when authors do this, that, or the other.
00:44:40
Lindsay Franklin
And it's just because those things are happening at a different part of the process. So I don't really think that's a fair assessment, um you know, to say that that process is superior because there isn't this type of cleanup to do necessarily.
00:44:56
Lindsay Franklin
It just is is a necessary thing that we must do at some point during revisions or edits before it gets to the reader just to make sure everything is all cleaned up and shiny.
00:45:07
Lindsay Franklin
And it just is a necessary piece of being a discovery writer to make sure that all of that is kind of swept, ah ah you know, swept away and and cleaned up before it gets to the reader.
00:45:18
Lindsay Franklin
And as an editor, that's part of my job. So I'm not gonna be salty about that. Whatever works for my author to like get that story out of their brain so that a reader can enjoy
Conclusion: Embracing Writing Diversity
00:45:27
Lindsay Franklin
it. That's all that matters. And it's just, you know, is it going to make my job a little bit harder? Maybe, but that's my job. And so I'm not going to complain about that.
00:45:35
Paul Regnier
But then it just puts more hours on your workday, so you get paid more.
00:45:36
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:45:39
Lindsay Franklin
Hey, that, yeah.
00:45:39
Paul Regnier
So actually, the discovery writers are doing editors a favor.
00:45:42
Lindsay Franklin
ah Keeping us in business, man. Come on
00:45:44
Paul Regnier
That's right. That's right. More billable hours.
00:45:48
Lindsay Franklin
Terrible.
00:45:48
Paul Regnier
right. Well, good stuff. This is a good discussion. And I think the end is like, again, both ways are valid. It just really depends on what type of...
00:45:57
Lindsay Franklin
Absolutely.
00:45:59
Paul Regnier
personality you have, what type of author you are, and how you like to write. Whatever works for you, i would just say do what works for you and don't let anyone tell you that, you know that's incorrect or whatever because there's no such thing. it's just what's working. how How do you put out a great story? how put How do you put out the best story you possibly can?
00:46:20
Paul Regnier
Do that way. So that's what I would say.
00:46:24
Lindsay Franklin
Agreed 100%. No Thunderdome required. There were no blood was spilled.
00:46:28
Paul Regnier
ah
00:46:32
Lindsay Franklin
Sorry, guys.
00:46:33
Paul Regnier
It's very good. It was a peaceful it was a it a peaceful ending. All right. Well, thanks, Lindsay. All right. Thank you, everyone, for listening. i hope this was helpful, and we will see you next time.
00:46:44
Lindsay Franklin
Bye.