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Episode 20: Fantastic Critique Groups and Where to Find Them
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Most novelists have heard the advice to join a critique group. But why is that recommendation so universal? In this episode, we unpack the benefits of critique groups, from honing your story craft to finding your community—and potentially saving money. We also discuss what separates a cohesive group from a frustrating one and how to hunt for a group that fits your needs. Whether you’re looking for your first critique group or wondering if your current group is the best fit, this episode shares practical advice on finding (or creating) a supportive circle of storytellers that helps you take your writing to the next level.
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Transcript
Introduction to Critique Groups
00:00:14
Lindsay Franklin
Hello and welcome to Quilling It. I am Lindsay Franklin.
00:00:18
Paul Regnier
And I'm Paul Regner.
00:00:19
Lindsay Franklin
And today we are talking about fantastic critique groups and where to find them. I love that title. That is a Paul original. i I'm here for it.
00:00:32
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:00:32
Paul Regnier
And they are fantastic.
00:00:35
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, critique groups are awesome. You will often hear that advice um in writers' circles and writers' groups. You will hear the advice, find a critique group, join a critique group. And so we're going to unpack that a little bit today. why you might want to do that, some of our experiences with critique groups, and maybe what to look for and literally where to find
Benefits of Critique Groups
00:00:58
Lindsay Franklin
them. We're going to give some tips on that. yeah So um first of all, let's discuss a little bit why we hear this advice so much about um the benefits of critique groups. like Why is this so important? And the first thing I, this is something that i recommend
00:01:16
Lindsay Franklin
constantly to writers, especially if you're newer in your writing journey, but really at all stages. Sometimes critique groups will kind of morph into mastermind type groups as you get further along in your writing journey.
00:01:30
Lindsay Franklin
But having a group of individuals that you really trust and you can trade your work with. That's valuable, I think, no matter what stage of your career you're in. But especially early in the journey, joining a critique group, finding one you really jeel with, I think, can provide so many benefits.
00:01:49
Lindsay Franklin
And I would give this advice to my freelance clients all the time, too. And part of the reason for that is if they could find a really excellent group like this, they're going to save so much money in not having to hire me to do quite so much on their manuscripts.
00:02:06
Lindsay Franklin
They can get some of that higher level.
00:02:06
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:02:10
Lindsay Franklin
And by higher level, I mean, bigger picture, broader overview type of feedback from their critique partners. And if those critique partners are really skilled with that,
00:02:22
Lindsay Franklin
and the client or the writer is really skilled at applying it and doing the self-editing, they can come in and hire me, the freelance editor, for maybe like a line edit or a copy edit or even a final proof at the end before they go you know self-publish this or submit it or whatever they're planning to do with it.
00:02:41
Lindsay Franklin
So it's something that can really save you a lot of money if you're in the market
Camaraderie in Writing
00:02:46
Paul Regnier
Amen.
00:02:46
Lindsay Franklin
for um an editor or if you are planning to indie publish your work.
00:02:50
Lindsay Franklin
So um that is one major benefit of a good critique group. um So yes.
00:02:58
Paul Regnier
Yeah, just to add on to that, I think that the the expression comes to mind as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:03:01
Lindsay Franklin
yes
00:03:08
Paul Regnier
it's It's like when you have that, when you're getting together with other people of the same like professional mindset when it you know related to writing, it's great because you can really just make each other that much better.
00:03:23
Paul Regnier
And the other thing too, I think, is writing can be such a solitary journey. um It's a an unexpected benefit you get is that camaraderie, right?
00:03:34
Paul Regnier
You get, and you'll even like start to form friendships with these people and you can kind of like,
00:03:35
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:03:39
Paul Regnier
have a support team there, you know, when you're launching a book or when you're like, okay, I got this
Finding the Right Group
00:03:45
Paul Regnier
new idea. Like, does this sound any good to you guys? Here's the concept. You can brainstorm things. Like there's a lot, like, I mean, we'll probably kind of go over these benefits, but I think like when I first started,
00:03:59
Paul Regnier
And someone told me about this. i'd I'd never heard. I'm like, oh, critique group. And at first it kind of like it kind of worried me a little bit. Like, oh, no, critique. you know People are going to like, am I sitting in front of this panel of frowny guys that are going to like tear apart my writing?
00:04:08
Lindsay Franklin
Critique sounds scary.
00:04:15
Paul Regnier
you know especially as a new writer, because you kind of feel like you know I'm not worthy. but So I did, but I wanted to try it out. So I did initially join this group. And it was ah at that point, it was just this group of guys. It was these older guys had been writing for a little bit longer. So I thought, well, that's cool. you know I can learn from these guys that have more experience.
00:04:35
Paul Regnier
um Now, the thing that I didn't think of at the time, which is something I would say to keep in mind is it's important when you get in a critique group to have people that ideally are writing in similar genres.
00:04:51
Paul Regnier
Like if you're a speculative fiction author, it's good to have other speculative fiction authors in your group.
00:04:52
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:04:58
Paul Regnier
When I joined that group, I think there was one other guy that did fantasy and then everyone else did like kind of like modern thrillers or um one guy doing kind of historical fiction. So it was a little scattered, right? And then, and they weren't super keyed into like the fantasy genre, I guess. So sometimes I'd like have new chapters to present.
Regular Meetings and Feedback
00:05:27
Paul Regnier
And the basic format for some of these critique groups is you get together maybe once a month or once every other month and you share like maybe your latest chapter or two and you kind of like review each other's work and give advice.
00:05:39
Paul Regnier
So we probably should have gone over that. I forgot to go over.
00:05:42
Lindsay Franklin
yeah Like what it what this even is.
00:05:43
Paul Regnier
What is a critique group anyways?
00:05:43
Lindsay Franklin
I know. ah Whoops.
00:05:46
Paul Regnier
Yeah, right.
00:05:46
Lindsay Franklin
Whoops. This is what happens when you've like been in the business for too long, where you just kind of like assume that everybody knows what this is.
00:05:48
Paul Regnier
So that's... Right, you assume everyone knows. Right. ah ah
00:05:55
Lindsay Franklin
Okay, so yes, what is a critique group?
00:05:57
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:05:57
Lindsay Franklin
Mm hmm.
00:05:58
Paul Regnier
that's That's the thumbnail.
00:05:59
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:05:59
Paul Regnier
And and obviously it it varies, right? Different groups do kind of slightly different things. But what I've experienced is that's kind of the basic. You get together, you share some of your latest chapters, or you talk about like different concepts like, hey, let's talk about advertising this month.
00:06:17
Paul Regnier
What do you guys do for advertising? Here's what I do. um But anyways, so in this first group that I was in, it was a little um unbalanced as far as like everyone kind of getting where the other person was coming from. And I can remember this one experience in particular where i had this chapter where I wrote about like, oh, you know And this was a fantasy. So I was saying, oh, the noble races of elves and dwarves were going against you know the evil races of goblins and trolls. And one of the guys was like, oh, you're talking about race and good and bad. That might be considered racist.
Cross-Genre Insights
00:06:54
Paul Regnier
And I'm like, no, dude, no.
00:06:55
Paul Regnier
This is fantasy. Classes, races, everyone gets what we're talking about. it's not We're not doing some sort of shrouded application. So, you know,
00:07:03
Lindsay Franklin
right or
00:07:05
Paul Regnier
it's it It was just one of those weird things where like, oh, okay, they don't really get what I'm doing or where the genre.
00:07:10
Lindsay Franklin
They don't quite speak the language. Yeah, they don't.
00:07:12
Paul Regnier
They don't understand the genre and they're interpreting it like incorrectly.
00:07:13
Lindsay Franklin
They're not quite. Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:17
Paul Regnier
So that was sort of my first and like first hint that like, oh, it's important. when you And as good as everyone can be, you know they were all good writers. But again, it's like I wasn't getting good feedback on the people that would actually buy my book and read it.
00:07:33
Paul Regnier
Like they weren't that they were my audience, so they didn't get it.
00:07:33
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:07:37
Paul Regnier
So they couldn't give me the feedback that I needed because you need feedback from the people that are actually going to be interested and read your book. So that's important.
00:07:45
Lindsay Franklin
right
00:07:46
Paul Regnier
Um, so that's something to look for in a critique group. And, um, But yeah, so that's my rambly way of like my first tip is saying find a group where people either they write in your or or at least either they read your genre and they understand it and they can give sort of that feedback that could be very helpful.
00:07:53
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:08:06
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:08:06
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah, that's that's such a good point. And I think there's there's kind of two sides to this, where you definitely need to have people, preferably everybody in the group, who has that kind of base understanding of any genre that is going to be critiqued within the group.
00:08:25
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yep.
00:08:25
Lindsay Franklin
um And On the other hand, there is something to be gained. So as long as somebody, like you said, is a reader and has some degree of education in that genre or familiarity with it, even if they're not writing it, that's okay.
00:08:38
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:08:39
Lindsay Franklin
As long as they kind of understand the genre conventions. um I think that there are a lot of things that we can learn from each other.
00:08:43
Paul Regnier
yep
00:08:48
Lindsay Franklin
you know, across genres, which can be really helpful as long as there isn't too much of that kind of misunderstanding that you're describing, because that's very common. And that's really common to find that mismatch in groups that are like a local group where you would meet in person, because a lot that's just based
Handling Diverse Feedback
00:09:07
Lindsay Franklin
on proximity a lot of the time, right?
00:09:08
Lindsay Franklin
Because this is like in in whatever given geographical area, we have, you know, these five writers or 10 writers or however many writers who are going to get together and trade work.
00:09:09
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:09:19
Lindsay Franklin
it's not, you know, a given that you're going to write in remotely similar genres. You just all happen to kind of live in the same area. So very common um there are in large generalized writing groups.
00:09:31
Lindsay Franklin
um If whoever is kind of running critique groups, if it's a more organized thing like that, if they're not breaking it out by genre, then you can end up with these really, really mixed groups. And there's stuff that we can all learn from each other.
00:09:44
Lindsay Franklin
So, you know, fantasy authors can learn really great research type things from historical authors. And, you know, thriller authors always have a lot to offer when it comes to like tension and pacing and that sort of thing.
00:09:58
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Suspense.
00:09:58
Lindsay Franklin
So yes, yes, all of that.
00:09:59
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:01
Lindsay Franklin
And mystery writers, oh my goodness, there's so many like cool things that, um and we fantasy authors can help.
00:10:03
Paul Regnier
dear Yeah.
00:10:07
Lindsay Franklin
with things like world building and whimsy and you know stuff like that in that creativity and the imagination side. So there is so much that we have to offer each other, but you have to have that kind of baseline understanding of the genre to be able to successfully critique it.
00:10:25
Lindsay Franklin
And if you're newer in your your journey, I feel like either you or i could sit down or any kind of experienced author could sit down in a group like that and be able to filter a little bit and take, you know, understand that, okay, this person is just not getting my genre or they don't fully understand my audience.
00:10:45
Lindsay Franklin
But this little nugget that I got from their feedback, that's great.
00:10:47
Paul Regnier
hu
00:10:47
Lindsay Franklin
I'm going to take that. But when you're newer in the journey, it is a lot harder to do that because you might not know those things yet intuitively.
00:10:52
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:10:55
Lindsay Franklin
And so it can become really overwhelming when you have a kind of a flood of that sort of feedback and you don't know what to listen to. You could end up rewriting your whole book Yeah.
00:11:13
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:11:20
Paul Regnier
Yeah. there's There's too much drama and relationship stuff in this YA.
00:11:25
Lindsay Franklin
Right, right.
00:11:26
Paul Regnier
I don't understand.
00:11:28
Lindsay Franklin
My favorite criticism of YA novels is when the character seems immature. And I'm like, guys, that's cut that's because she's 15.
00:11:35
Paul Regnier
All right.
00:11:37
Lindsay Franklin
Like, yeah, she's not acting like a 35-year-old woman.
00:11:40
Paul Regnier
That's funny.
00:11:40
Lindsay Franklin
She's immature, you know. But yeah, so that that is an experience that I had in in a group one time. And this overall was actually a wonderful group. But there was a little a little moment there where I was ah one of the few YA authors in this group.
00:11:57
Lindsay Franklin
And somebody very well-meaning had submitted what essentially amounted to a line edit. We were supposed to be like critiquing our our work back and forth and giving more of that big picture feedback.
00:12:05
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:12:09
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:12:10
Lindsay Franklin
And what came back to me was like it had been redlined and and kind of rewritten.
00:12:15
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:12:16
Lindsay Franklin
And it had absolutely been rewritten to appeal way more to this other writer's genre, which is on the complete opposite end of the scale of mine. So a very particular type of romance, um you know genre demographic that is decades older than my demographic.
00:12:34
Lindsay Franklin
And so if I had been a little earlier in my journey, that might have
00:12:34
Paul Regnier
yeah
Trust in Critique Groups
00:12:39
Lindsay Franklin
really rocked me.
00:12:40
Lindsay Franklin
um And, you know, feeling like, oh, my gosh.
00:12:41
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:12:43
Lindsay Franklin
did And it did rock me just a little bit. But I was experienced enough. I was experienced enough that I thought, no, there's, you know, this other writer is not quite understanding who I'm writing for.
00:12:56
Lindsay Franklin
When you really start to, like, look at the edits, I was like, that this is not going to hit with a teen audience.
00:12:56
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that's good.
00:13:02
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:13:02
Lindsay Franklin
So that is very important to have that cohesion um within the group.
00:13:06
Paul Regnier
Yeah. I will say, um you know going back to that first group I was in, even though they didn't totally get my genre, I did learn so i was a newer writer and they were more experienced.
00:13:18
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:13:18
Paul Regnier
So I did learn, like they were great with like technical writing stuff that helped me quite a bit.
00:13:19
Lindsay Franklin
with me
00:13:24
Paul Regnier
like I remember there was one chapter I submitted in, um I summarized a lot like, oh, this happened and like ah this kingdom started and here's all the thing.
00:13:34
Paul Regnier
And they're like, okay, you know that was my first introduction to show, don't tell. right like
00:13:39
Lindsay Franklin
and
00:13:40
Paul Regnier
They're like, you just went through a whole page where you told the history of the kingdom. like This is gonna bore people. Like put someone in the scene and like show it, you know show the kingdom starting to crumble and show like the you know the infighting and you know whatever it was, you know like show it, it's more interesting.
00:13:58
Paul Regnier
And I was like, oh yeah, that wouldn't be more interesting.
00:13:59
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:14:02
Paul Regnier
But, you know, and I don't know if it was because i had read something because sometimes in the older books that you read, like from 100 years ago or whatever, they'll do some of that summary stuff that was, I think, more commonplace or acceptable.
00:14:02
Lindsay Franklin
That's great advice. Yeah.
00:14:08
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:14:16
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, it was. Uh-huh.
00:14:17
Paul Regnier
um But modern, it's like, we want snappy, we want you know we want to see this happen, you know show us.
00:14:18
Lindsay Franklin
Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
00:14:24
Paul Regnier
um So that was good. So there was things like that. And there was one guy that was so good with descriptions. It was like poetry. I'm like, wow. So it kind of gave me this bar to shoot for, like, okay, I got to up my game when it comes to descriptions.
00:14:31
Lindsay Franklin
oh
00:14:37
Paul Regnier
descriptions because I had come from screenplay writing and screenplays was just like, so matter of fact, journalistic kind of, you know, dry descriptions now.
00:14:41
Lindsay Franklin
you
00:14:44
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:14:46
Paul Regnier
So now I'm like, Oh, now I'm in books. I've got to really, you know, work on this. So it's good. It pointed out these things.
00:14:52
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:14:53
Paul Regnier
So it's kind of like, even if you're in like the quote unquote wrong group, you're still going to get good out of it.
00:14:59
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:15:00
Paul Regnier
You know, if you just kind of be open to, you know, different critiquing and, um,
00:15:01
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:15:06
Paul Regnier
Yeah, but I will say, so after that group, I went to Mount Hermon one year and I was in like this ongoing like fantasy kind of class. And that's where I met a bunch of people that lived in, because back then I lived in Southern California, and they lived in the same place.
00:15:22
Paul Regnier
So we formed a critique group, or actually they already had a group going and they let me in. And I stuck with them for like 10 years and we would meet in person, which is like the the best.
00:15:30
Lindsay Franklin
Oh, that's awesome.
00:15:33
Paul Regnier
That's ideal. It's it's hard to get that, you know especially depending on where you're if you're more rural, it's really hard. But yeah but um I have an online group now that I meet with, and it's still great.
00:15:45
Paul Regnier
But it's like, ideally, if you can meet in person, it's it's pretty amazing. So, yeah.
00:15:50
Lindsay Franklin
That would be awesome. I have never had an in-person group. I've had an online group where we will travel to be together you know like once a year or every like other year or something.
00:15:54
Paul Regnier
Oh, it's great.
00:16:01
Paul Regnier
Oh, well, that's cool. Yeah.
00:16:04
Lindsay Franklin
And we haven't done it for a while, but That is so, it is amazing to be in person. And when we would do that, we would make it like a retreat, almost, not almost, literally a retreat.
00:16:14
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Fun.
00:16:16
Lindsay Franklin
And we would just sit there for, you know, like a long weekend or something and brainstorm each other's books and, you know, work through problems, talk about career things.
00:16:26
Lindsay Franklin
And just like, it's, it's such a, a like refilling time to be able to do that and be in the company of your, you know, very like-minded other writer people is super cool.
00:16:32
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:16:39
Lindsay Franklin
um So, yeah.
00:16:39
Paul Regnier
Yeah, and and again, i will go back to what I said before, that camaraderie is so important. um And it's a different kind of camaraderie.
00:16:45
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:16:47
Paul Regnier
and i I mean, like you have your friends, but like when you can find a group of other writers, especially writers that write in your genre, I don't know, like your brains click in a different way.
00:16:59
Paul Regnier
you know you There's a different kind of connection that's really kind of cool.
00:16:59
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:17:03
Paul Regnier
like you really get you know You can do all your inside joke movie references and all that stuff and book references.
00:17:08
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:17:10
Paul Regnier
and but um
00:17:11
Lindsay Franklin
oh
00:17:12
Paul Regnier
But you know just like understanding where you're coming from. And then you could even say, hey, I've got this great new idea. What do you think of this? And then they're immediately on track. You you don't have to... you know I don't know. There's just something really neat about having that.
00:17:25
Paul Regnier
And like like I mentioned before, that support. When you're getting up to the point where you're going to release a book, suddenly you start to feel that weird, vulnerable kind of like anxiety.
00:17:35
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:17:36
Paul Regnier
Like, uh-oh, I'm putting this out in the world for scrutiny. like What's going to happen?
00:17:41
Lindsay Franklin
um
00:17:41
Paul Regnier
So to have those people kind of around you just going like, yeah, yeah cool, man, ah go for it. I'll post it about it on you know socials or you know I'll buy a copy or whatever it is.
00:17:51
Lindsay Franklin
he
00:17:52
Paul Regnier
or you know um I mean, that's that's so great to have that because, again, this this can be such a solitary journey.
00:17:54
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:17:59
Paul Regnier
And and to have people around you kind of encouraging and and supporting you, it's really important for you know this kind of job.
00:18:09
Lindsay Franklin
Absolutely. And I think it critique groups are a little bit different in that way, or not different, but they're like like leveled up a little bit from your other writer friends. Because of course, all of your writer friends, as much as we're able, we support each other and we'll post and share and do all those
Balancing Feedback
00:18:27
Lindsay Franklin
things. Your critique group is like even one step beyond because they're actually familiar with your work. And you know it's very difficult for us to have read all of each other, you know, all of our writer friends at this point, you know, you've been in the industry for 15, 20, 25 years, something like that. I mean, just, your network becomes too big for you to have read everybody's work.
00:18:50
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:18:50
Lindsay Franklin
And you're still willing to like support those friends, absolutely.
00:18:53
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:18:53
Lindsay Franklin
But your critique group is a smaller group where they know your stories and they're familiar with you as a writer. And so when you're having that, that I almost said crisis of faith.
00:19:04
Lindsay Franklin
That's not what I mean. Like that a crisis of confidence. That's what I was trying to to say. Crisis of confidence about your...
00:19:11
Paul Regnier
Christ has a faith in your work.
00:19:13
Lindsay Franklin
Right. Christ of faith in yourself. Hmm. Okay. That's not what I meant. No, that, that like anxiety that you have right before you put new work out into the world, it means something extra, at least to me when somebody who's actually read the book that I'm nervous about is saying, no, it's great.
00:19:31
Lindsay Franklin
It's going to be great. And, you know, your readers are going to love it. And, you know, can even point to specific things that they found, you know, wonderful about that particular work.
00:19:42
Lindsay Franklin
It's a different level of encouragement. And so, yeah, it's, it's a, do love that?
00:19:45
Paul Regnier
I have a specific example of that that just happened this week. Yeah. so ah the The group that I'm meeting with now, we meet online. And i i had this brand new book that I'm writing that I really am having so much fun with. It's actually lit RPG and I've never written in that genre before. So I submitted the first two chapters. And again, it's like, it's that thing like,
00:20:08
Paul Regnier
this feels right. It feels like it's working, but this is like a brand new kind of sub-genre.
00:20:11
Lindsay Franklin
h
00:20:14
Paul Regnier
And I don't know how this is going to go over with you know with people that maybe like my stuff or that don't, what whatever. And one of my critique group partners, she said, this is my favorite thing that you've written.
00:20:27
Paul Regnier
And that was like, oh, thank you.
00:20:28
Lindsay Franklin
Love it. Love it. Love it.
00:20:32
Paul Regnier
like It was such a cool encouragement because she's read you know various chapters of, I think, my last four or five books. And just to hear that kind of comment, i was like, oh, OK, cool. Maybe maybe i am onto something here.
00:20:44
Paul Regnier
you know So it was really neat.
00:20:45
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:20:46
Paul Regnier
And like you that just speaks to what you just mentioned. like These people have read your other stuff. So they can zero in on like what you do and And they've seen all your tricks, right?
00:20:59
Paul Regnier
So when they say something, it's like, oh, cool.
00:20:59
Lindsay Franklin
ah Yeah.
00:21:01
Paul Regnier
This one's working. So anyways, yeah, I just wanted to mention that because that was exactly what you were talking about.
00:21:03
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:21:06
Lindsay Franklin
I love that. It is exactly that.
00:21:08
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:21:09
Lindsay Franklin
And it's like, these are people who are, their opinion is weighted a little bit more heavily, not a little bit, a lot more heavily, because not only are they familiar, you trust them enough to have let them into this kind of inner circle.
00:21:16
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:21:25
Lindsay Franklin
It's like your inner circle of writer people, because you are willing to show them raw work, which is a very vulnerable thing to do um You are investing time in their work as well and vice versa.
00:21:25
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:21:37
Lindsay Franklin
So there's this trust that's built up there and it is different. We still love the support from any anybody who's going to say, you know, it's going to be great. Don't worry. you're You're great at this.
00:21:47
Lindsay Franklin
You're a great storyteller or whatever. that That's always meaningful and always nice to hear. But when it is somebody whose opinion is weighted more heavily, then it just is like that extra encouragement.
00:21:58
Lindsay Franklin
um So I love that that happened for you recently. Yay. Mm-hmm.
00:22:02
Paul Regnier
yeah Yeah, that was awesome.
Value of Trusted Opinions
00:22:05
Paul Regnier
um It is great though. the The thing too is even when it is not positive, when the feedback is not positive, when they say like, oh, this didn't work for me or oh, this was confusing, um it's it's also weighted.
00:22:19
Paul Regnier
But I think that's good too because then you're like, oh, it's not like I know you've liked my stuff in the past, so I must have fumbled somewhere here.
00:22:28
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:22:28
Paul Regnier
It's not like some random person that said like, oh, your stuff is no good. Like, well, maybe you're not, maybe you don't get me or maybe you're not a fan of what I'm doing.
00:22:33
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:22:35
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:22:37
Paul Regnier
But if someone, you know, someone in the past has liked your stuff and then they're saying, oh, this, this part's a little clunky or I don't get what you're trying to say.
00:22:37
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:22:44
Paul Regnier
Then it's like, oh, that's awesome because now I know I need to fix that. um So that's another, that's the flip side of that coin that's still positive, even though it seems negative.
00:22:49
Lindsay Franklin
yes
00:22:55
Lindsay Franklin
Right, because that's really the reason. Well, I shouldn't say it's the reason. It's one of the main reasons that we're in those types of groups anyway, is to get that sharpening of our iron, right, back and forth and and to improve and to make sure that something is up to you know certain quality standard but also to keep growing and growing so it's kind of like that story that i know i've told before on the show about my agent not loving the first draft of the story peddler and yes where she i mean and it was really deep critical feedback that she had about the absolute foundation of the plot the you know of the story as it existed then and because she had really vibed with
00:23:04
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:23:25
Paul Regnier
Oh, right. Story peddler. Yeah.
00:23:42
Lindsay Franklin
everything else I had ever sent to her and everything I had, I knew she got me. I knew she believed in me. I knew she loved my characters and loved my ideas and all of that stuff. I listened to her.
00:23:54
Lindsay Franklin
So she wasn't just a random one-star review out there on the internet of somebody who's like, I hate this.
00:23:57
Paul Regnier
yeah Right.
00:24:00
Lindsay Franklin
I, you know, just, this is awful.
00:24:01
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:24:02
Lindsay Franklin
Like, no, even if she was giving me really critical feedback, it's not just that she doesn't get me. There was truly something not working about the story. And So all of those people that we let in to the inner circle, of they their opinions should matter to us.
00:24:11
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:24:20
Lindsay Franklin
Otherwise, they don't belong in that inner circle. And so it's not to say that if somebody ever gives you that type of really like world shattering sort of ah feedback about your story ah that, well, clearly they just don't belong in here.
00:24:23
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:24:33
Lindsay Franklin
No, it's if you've let them in and you you know kind of stand by that, like I do with my agent, she is still my agent. And and that conversation we had was like, 12 years ago.
00:24:44
Lindsay Franklin
So she does belong in my inner circle. um It was, I needed to listen to her.
00:24:46
Paul Regnier
right
00:24:48
Lindsay Franklin
So um that's that your critique group is, is right in there with
Formats of Critique Groups
00:24:54
Lindsay Franklin
agent editor you're working with at your publisher or freelance editor you have hired, you've vetted and hired like ah all of it is that's a really tight group that is not the same as like getting a one or two star, even a three star, me you know, ah from a random reader is, you know, that that is we don't weight that as heavily that, that opinion is as Robin Jones gun says, you put that opinion on a feather and then just blow it away.
00:24:57
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. and
00:25:19
Lindsay Franklin
And, you know, just bye.
00:25:19
Paul Regnier
ah I like that.
00:25:23
Lindsay Franklin
ah Yeah.
00:25:24
Paul Regnier
Bye-bye.
00:25:25
Lindsay Franklin
Goodbye.
00:25:27
Paul Regnier
I was thinking too, what that what your agent, that harsh critique she gave you, that ended up in a much better book, right? And you turning it into a much better book in the end.
00:25:39
Lindsay Franklin
A hundred percent. The version that I originally wrote and, and it's so, weird. It's weird to talk about this without being able to show people that original draft, which sorry, you' never going to do that.
00:25:50
Lindsay Franklin
But without being able to like show everybody what I mean by this, when I say that the concept is the same, but like the concept is the concept.
00:25:59
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:59
Lindsay Franklin
And even the first chapter is almost identical to the very original draft that I wrote. The first chapter in the published book is almost the same. And yet the whole rest of the story is different.
00:26:11
Lindsay Franklin
And I reworked the entire plot and scrapped almost all of the characters, not all of them, but almost all of them.
00:26:12
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:26:18
Lindsay Franklin
So it's weird that it's like it's the same concept and yet a completely different story. But she was right. And if we had gone on submission with that first draft, I feel like.
00:26:31
Lindsay Franklin
Basically 100% sure it would never have been contracted. It would not have been my debut novel and certainly not my breakout novel if I had not listened to her. She was right.
00:26:42
Lindsay Franklin
She was right about that. So that is definitely like a really good illustration for when you let somebody into your circle and you trust them that much, how important it is to value their feedback.
00:26:44
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:26:56
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:26:57
Lindsay Franklin
And especially if they are somebody who is willing to be honest with you And give you that feedback, even when it's really hard, because I know that was an awful conversation for her to have to have.
00:27:01
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:27:06
Lindsay Franklin
She knew she was going to break my heart, right?
00:27:07
Paul Regnier
and
00:27:08
Lindsay Franklin
So that was not that was not fun for her.
00:27:09
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:27:11
Lindsay Franklin
But she had to be honest with me because she had my best interests at heart with my career. that That is her job is to help shepherd my career. So yeah, super important lesson.
00:27:20
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:23
Lindsay Franklin
And and I'm so happy. glad that that my sadness initially when I heard her feedback didn't swallow that whole moment for me because I don't know where my career would be if I had made different choices in response to to what she said so yeah a hundred percent yeah absolutely
00:27:33
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:27:40
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:27:42
Paul Regnier
It was ultimately constructive criticism is what it was. So I'm curious, like I know with the groups I've been in, we have sort of like a typical like format we do for each meeting, but then we've also done some fun, you know, different things like we'll schedule it in advance. So I have some of those things to share, but I was curious, like in your experience, what is what is like what goes on in a typical meeting of your critique group? like How long does it last? And what are some of the things you usually do? And maybe some you know sometimes when you go outside that you know typical schedule and do something unique.
00:28:23
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah. So all of the critique groups that I've been part of have been primarily online and Mostly it consists of trading chapters back and forth and then having a little bit of like I don't want to say a deadline, but like a timeline.
00:28:34
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:28:39
Lindsay Franklin
If you're going to submit chapters for critique, then you are going to put the time into critiques. other people's chapters is basically the agreement there.
00:28:48
Paul Regnier
right
00:28:49
Lindsay Franklin
And you're going to turn these around in a timely manner. So it's a little less formal than some of the meetings. If you're doing stuff in person, or even if you're in an online group that does more of like that regular formal meeting time, then that's going to look a little bit different.
00:29:04
Lindsay Franklin
um So my groups have been a lot more just trading back and forth those chapters, and then also having conversations amongst you know, each other in chats or or that sort of thing.
00:29:16
Lindsay Franklin
um Or even like in the old days, email chains, I want to say, you know, just kind of emailing back and forth and stuff like that. um But when I got a little bit further in my career and it evolved into more mastermind type career, groups.
00:29:30
Lindsay Franklin
um It had that element, but we would also do regular meetings on Zoom or what have you, with like whatever platform you use for that and discussing, yes, having different topics.
00:29:42
Lindsay Franklin
And I think that we would even have in some of these groups, somebody scheduled to like speak for 10 minutes or so, 10, 15 minutes or present a little bit, because that's another element.
00:29:49
Paul Regnier
Wow.
00:29:55
Lindsay Franklin
Here's another thing to look for in a critique group is where you have different skill sets, different but complementary skill sets. So for example, I was in a group where I think I was the only fantasy writer in that entire group, but this was a group of um all female professional writers and some of them didn't even write fiction.
00:30:17
Lindsay Franklin
So this was like, you know, really varied on the genre. So as far as giving a lot of feedback on chapters or something, that's not going to be what this group is for. This group was more like professional development and camaraderie and that sort of thing.
00:30:29
Paul Regnier
Oh.
00:30:31
Lindsay Franklin
So we would schedule, everybody would kind of take a meeting. And I cannot remember how often we would meet. I feel like it was more often than once a month, maybe, maybe twice a month. um But we would all take one of those ah meeting times and present on something that we had that would be of benefit to the other women in that group.
00:30:52
Lindsay Franklin
And so I can remember talking about um editorial stuff and I might've even talked about time management in that group, just things that I might teach at a conference ad.
00:31:03
Lindsay Franklin
And I think all of us in that group or most of us in that group
00:31:03
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:31:06
Lindsay Franklin
do teach at conferences. And so, um you know, there was always something interesting as something about marketing, something about, you know, whatever skill that particular writer has and can offer.
00:31:20
Lindsay Franklin
to the group. um So that was something that was really cool because it was like getting a little little mini class um and kind of a different different side of this type of group where if it isn't 100% about your work, there's still a lot that can be gleaned from it.
00:31:24
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that's neat.
00:31:38
Lindsay Franklin
And it has um certainly that camaraderie aspect to it and stuff. So that was really cool. So though that's kind of more of the structure that I'm used to. And then there was that really tight knit group of friends that I had where we all write in very much the same, same space or similar space. Not all of us write YA, but we're all writing speculative fiction. And so we do trade work a lot. And that's the group that I would meet with in person once about once a year And we would just have a massive brainstorming weekend. So everybody would come with like, this is the next thing that I want to work on, or this is the my work in progress that I'm stuck on or whatever, we would all come with something like that in mind. And then everybody got their turn in the hot seat.
00:32:24
Lindsay Franklin
And we'd spend, you know, like half a day on each person's kind of hot seat projects.
00:32:24
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:32:29
Lindsay Franklin
And so um There's so many different ways that you can really
Evolution of Critique Groups
00:32:33
Lindsay Franklin
do this. And there's no right or wrong way.
00:32:34
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Right.
00:32:35
Lindsay Franklin
It's just kind of what works for what works for that particular group of people and what you're hoping to get out of it as the as a writer in that group.
00:32:36
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:32:45
Paul Regnier
Yeah, I think mine sounds pretty similar. Like I think that the typical has been you exchange chapters, right? you You kind of, maybe you have some Google Drive or something, or you just email them to each other like, hey, here's my chapters for the next meeting.
00:32:53
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:33:02
Paul Regnier
And sometimes you set, like I find it's helpful to set a word count depending on people's time. I think the typical is like 5,000 to 10,000 words. you know Because you could say like a couple of chapters, but maybe someone writes really long or short chapters and so you want it to be fair.
00:33:20
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:33:20
Paul Regnier
so Word count, I think is a little more of a you know a fair way to do it. but um yeah Currently in my group now, we do 5,000.
00:33:25
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:33:28
Paul Regnier
We were doing 10,000, but it it ended up if everyone submitted, that would be a lot right because there was like five of us.
00:33:32
Lindsay Franklin
It's a lot. It's a lot.
00:33:36
Paul Regnier
Wait, where's there six of us? Anyways, um I can't count. But yeah, like well, because sometimes we have people that show up and sometimes they're it's more sporadic.
00:33:45
Lindsay Franklin
ah Sure.
00:33:46
Paul Regnier
But um but yeah, like if everyone submits and it's 10,000, that's a lot to to read and review.
00:33:52
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:33:53
Paul Regnier
and And the thing that I think is important, that it remains like enjoyable and not like a chore.
00:33:59
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
00:34:01
Paul Regnier
So I find that 5,000 word count limit makes it still real fun and like not too much of a homework assignment.
00:34:07
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:34:09
Paul Regnier
so But yeah, so that's the typical. We submit our latest chapters. You review everyone else's. You can make little comments. like If you're using Word, you can do that little review, that like little comment bubbles on the side and stuff like that.
00:34:23
Paul Regnier
and you know If you want to be like, you know fixed typos and grammar and stuff, you could do that too.
00:34:29
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:34:29
Paul Regnier
But mostly it's like you said, it's more of the big picture stuff, more like this scene conf confused me or this, oh, that's a great line.
00:34:32
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:34:37
Paul Regnier
I love that line or whatever it is. you know You could give them feedback. And then when you meet, you kind of go over that and then you can explain, because it's it's hard sometimes to explain all that in in just little notes on the side.
00:34:50
Paul Regnier
So you can kind of when you meet, you can go over like, and and like you said, it goes like hot seat, like, okay, it's your turn. Let's talk about your chapters. And then everyone like gives feedback on that person's chapter and then it moves on to the next person.
00:35:02
Paul Regnier
And so that's like the typical, right? And I, I think that's the, that's the great way to do it.
00:35:06
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:35:08
Paul Regnier
Um, we've also done some things where, it's kind of like the mastermind thing you said where it's like maybe someone's really good at something and like they talk about that or like for us it's like maybe someone just got back from a writer's conference and we're like oh tell us how did the conference go like what did they do there and whatever um or someone might be like hey i have a book coming out like make sure you guys like support me and this is the launch day and all this kind of stuff um I know like one time since I do Amazon ads, some of the people in my group didn't.
00:35:43
Paul Regnier
So I just did like a share screen and I showed them like, okay, here's my Amazon ads account. Here's how I run it. And like, this is how you can start an ad and blah, blah, blah.
00:35:53
Lindsay Franklin
Awesome. Mm-hmm.
00:35:53
Paul Regnier
So we do stuff like that as well as like brainstorm.
00:35:53
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:35:56
Paul Regnier
You could have a day where maybe some people submitted or you're like, hey, i don't I didn't have anything this month, but i have a new idea and I was hoping to share it. And maybe you guys can help me with ideas.
00:36:07
Paul Regnier
So like you said, that there's really no like strict rules on what you can do. And there's probably way more than I mentioned. um but But that's the fun of it, right? You can kind of mix it up and just keep it you know keep it interesting.
00:36:21
Lindsay Franklin
Absolutely. And it's also okay if, you know, a group is really excellent for you for a season. Like I mentioned that group of professional women where that was amazing and did it for, I think, a couple of years. And then we kind of moved on from that. And and that was fine. Like, it's okay if it doesn't end up being a thing
Finding and Starting Groups
00:36:42
Lindsay Franklin
that runs out. for 10 years or something, um you know, there's still, so there's so much to be gleaned and it's just kind of like part of the journey. And then you can, if, if a group is no longer for you or if the group itself is like, okay, this has run its course and we're going to disband and, you know, it's been real, you know, like whatever, all of that's okay. It's, it's totally fine to move on from a group and find a different one. If you're in a group and it doesn't feel right for you,
00:37:07
Lindsay Franklin
um And but like we said, you know, even when a group is not perfect, there is definitely a lot that can be gained from it. And so um if you're if you're in a group that is imperfect, but you're having a hard time finding a different group, it's okay to stick with your imperfect group and kind of just pull out the like, little nuggets of wisdom where where you can while you search for a different group.
00:37:31
Lindsay Franklin
That's totally an okay thing to do because it can be difficult to find a group that really feels like home or where you click with everybody or it feels like it's it's right.
00:37:40
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:37:42
Lindsay Franklin
that can It can take some time and some effort. So don't feel discouraged if it's like you've attempted and not not quite clicked and found it um yet, because trust me, there is a group out there, or even if it is just one other person.
00:37:50
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:37:59
Lindsay Franklin
i think it's great when it is more than that, because then you get a wider variety of opinions, you get greater variance in skill set and also skill levels and just all of that.
00:38:10
Lindsay Franklin
um But even if you can just find a critique partner where you are able to have that type of relationship with them, even that can be an amazing, my longest running critique relationship is actually just a critique partnership um where we have traded work back and forth with each other since it's been like 13 years now.
00:38:33
Paul Regnier
Wow.
00:38:33
Lindsay Franklin
It's a long time. Yeah. she's one of my best friends. So, and I met her in this kind of like critique group type context.
00:38:36
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:38:40
Lindsay Franklin
And we sort of, you know, once that group disbanded, we continue to trade work with each other and have ever since. And she is one of my besties. So, um you know, even even just that can be you can get so many of these same benefits um of that that iron sharpening.
00:38:50
Paul Regnier
Cool.
00:38:58
Lindsay Franklin
um And she and I do not actually write in the same genre. She writes YA contemporary.
00:39:02
Paul Regnier
Oh.
00:39:03
Lindsay Franklin
So, yeah, but we're both writing for the same audience, but different genre.
00:39:04
Paul Regnier
Oh.
00:39:07
Paul Regnier
Right. yeah I was going to say you're both in YA, so it's similar.
00:39:08
Lindsay Franklin
Mm hmm. Yep.
00:39:10
Paul Regnier
Yeah, yeah. Readership.
00:39:11
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:39:11
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:39:13
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:39:13
Paul Regnier
um Cool.
00:39:14
Lindsay Franklin
Very cool.
00:39:14
Paul Regnier
Maybe we should also talk about the the last part of our title, where to find them.
00:39:19
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:39:20
Paul Regnier
Where do you find these critique groups?
00:39:21
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:39:22
Paul Regnier
um i will I will just say like...
00:39:22
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:39:24
Paul Regnier
it I think it can come from a lot of different places. like I remember like my first one is like i um I had a friend this friend at church that I met, and she she was a writer.
00:39:36
Paul Regnier
And I feel like it's kind of um when you start writing, you're kind of looking you got the you know you on the lookout for other writers. And I feel like there wasn't that many of them like when I looked around.
00:39:46
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:39:47
Paul Regnier
And I would say, like oh yeah, I'm starting to write.
00:39:47
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:39:49
Paul Regnier
and they'd be like, oh, really? you know And so i I ran into this lady and she she had already published a couple books. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like teach me, teach me a wise one. um But she's the one that first said, like oh, you should have you ever gone to like a writer's conference?
00:40:05
Paul Regnier
I'm like, no, what's that? you know Are you in a critique group? No, what's that? you know So it's like I knew nothing. um
00:40:12
Lindsay Franklin
Oh, it was baby writer Paul.
00:40:14
Paul Regnier
It was.
00:40:14
Lindsay Franklin
She was like, let me help you.
00:40:17
Paul Regnier
yeah She was my Obi-Wan. And so anyways, yeah. um So she was the one that told me about Mount Hermon. And then that's where I met all the people that were in her group.
00:40:30
Paul Regnier
and And that was the group I started meeting with like after that first group that I mentioned that I didn't like totally fit with. So in this new group, and this is the one where we ended up like meeting for 10 years and in person, and they were all like spec fiction writers.
00:40:47
Paul Regnier
So it was great. And I learned so much from them. And again, like most of them were a couple steps ahead of me so they could teach me like what to look out for and and like sort of how to jump past some hurdles that I otherwise would have probably fallen into.
00:41:02
Paul Regnier
like you know Don't side with a vanity press, things like that.
00:41:07
Lindsay Franklin
Oh, yes. Yes.
00:41:08
Paul Regnier
ah
00:41:09
Lindsay Franklin
Don't do it.
00:41:10
Paul Regnier
Don't do it. um but so And then this last group I'm in this current one that I've been in for about three, four years now. Jeez. Yeah, it's cool.
00:41:22
Paul Regnier
It's gone on long. So this is an online group that I'm in and I found them through the the social media, I guess you would call it social media, the maybe the community part of Realm Makers.
00:41:24
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:41:36
Paul Regnier
It's called the Realm Sphere. And that's where a lot of writers of faith like can that write speculative fiction, you know it's like um you know just this community board, and they organize like critique groups, if you're looking for a critique group.
00:41:53
Paul Regnier
And that's how I met the group that I'm currently with. And it's been a great group. like we're We're all like pretty similar on similar levels of writing. So the writing feedback is really good.
00:42:03
Lindsay Franklin
Mm hmm.
00:42:06
Paul Regnier
um fact, I think a couple of them have done some like editing for others. So that it's like it's great to have like editors in the group too, like writer slash editor like you.
00:42:11
Lindsay Franklin
Nice.
00:42:15
Paul Regnier
um
00:42:15
Lindsay Franklin
Mm
00:42:16
Paul Regnier
And yeah, so that's been really neat. And and even though I will say i I do miss the in-person, like at least the online, it's still pretty great.
00:42:26
Paul Regnier
you know you can You can still get so much out of it.
00:42:27
Lindsay Franklin
hmm.
00:42:29
Paul Regnier
So that's where I found them. But again, I think if you, like a writer's conference is a great place, you know and online now, there's so many like different communities.
00:42:39
Paul Regnier
I would think that's another I know what Thomas Umstead's Author Media, I think they have a big community place where you can maybe connect with other authors and look for groups.
00:42:49
Lindsay Franklin
I think so. Yep.
00:42:51
Paul Regnier
um I don't know. Those are my thoughts. Do you do you have any thoughts about like where where to look for these these mysterious critique groups?
00:42:59
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah. The elusive critique group.
00:43:02
Paul Regnier
The elusive?
00:43:02
Lindsay Franklin
um Yeah, my, my journey with this is really similar, um because it's been kind of a combination of people I met in person first at a writers conference, even if it was kind of a more casual meeting, or some of some of that ah was actually like a mentoring type group that was put together by the conference.
00:43:23
Lindsay Franklin
So the conference had, you know, sorted people into groups and, you know, put us all together. We critiqued each other's work and then we decided to continue that after the conference was over. So that was one group that I was in.
00:43:35
Lindsay Franklin
um And some other groups like the professional women's group, I met all of them at a conference first, and but that was not a group organized by the conference. So um that's a really great place because you're you're meeting other writers and you can tell in person people you click with, just on a personal level, at least.
00:43:53
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that's important.
00:43:54
Lindsay Franklin
you know like it's very important.
00:43:55
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:43:56
Lindsay Franklin
And you know the group that it was organized by the conference in that mentoring group where we continued after. We did have a ah wide variety of genres, but something that was cool about that group is the conference vetted kind of skill level or where we were at with that, where we were at in our our journey.
00:44:16
Lindsay Franklin
And i my opinion on critique groups is it's really nice when Everybody is definitely at a certain level. um
00:44:24
Paul Regnier
Yeah, agreed.
00:44:25
Lindsay Franklin
but But there's enough variance, yes, because it's really difficult if you are, you know, pretty far in your journey and you're like, indie publishing your books or you you have traditional contracts or whatever, and then there's somebody who is so, so, so green, um that can still be that can still be okay, especially if it's just one.
00:44:45
Lindsay Franklin
If it's just one person, because then you can like really take that person under your wing.
00:44:45
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:44:49
Lindsay Franklin
The whole group could take that person under ah under their wing and really help.
00:44:49
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:44:54
Lindsay Franklin
um And it becomes such a
00:44:54
Paul Regnier
But you don't want like you and then a bunch of newbies because then you're just like a teacher.
00:44:57
Lindsay Franklin
like ah then you're like teaching a class and you have to make sure it's it's you want to be able to give to the group and make sure that you have something to give to them but that you're also able to receive from the group because otherwise it becomes kind of what you alluded to before where it can become unsustainable if you are constantly pouring out and never able to receive from that group then it becomes like you're doing volunteer work and that's fine too, if that's what you're there for.
00:44:59
Paul Regnier
yeah Right.
00:45:05
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:45:09
Paul Regnier
Yes.
00:45:15
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:45:20
Paul Regnier
and
00:45:23
Paul Regnier
i
00:45:25
Lindsay Franklin
But if, if you're there trying to get your own iron sharpened too, then that's not going to be a great group.
00:45:26
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:45:31
Lindsay Franklin
So that's what was kind of cool about the group that the conference put together is they, had us submit work and they vetted everybody.
00:45:32
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:45:39
Lindsay Franklin
And um so you had to kind of be at ah at a certain level.
00:45:40
Paul Regnier
Wow.
00:45:44
Lindsay Franklin
And so even though we had wide variance in our genres, everybody was at a level of professionalism and craft that we were able to give good feedback on each other's work.
00:45:54
Lindsay Franklin
So
00:45:55
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that's neat.
00:45:56
Lindsay Franklin
That was super cool. Yeah. And a lot of writers groups will do that as well. That's the other main place I think that you can find groups like this is like the Realm Sphere or um you know, for Writers of Faith at ACFW used to have, I believe they still do.
00:46:11
Lindsay Franklin
I'm almost certain they still have their kind of critique group system, ecosystem that you can um become part of.
00:46:16
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:46:19
Lindsay Franklin
And so i'm I'm going to guess that a lot of professional writers organizations have some kind of arm like that, where it is for pairing people up.
00:46:29
Lindsay Franklin
And if there's
00:46:29
Paul Regnier
Yeah, some community.
00:46:31
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah, something.
00:46:31
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:46:32
Lindsay Franklin
And if you can't find any of these things or none of your communities have those, but you do have a network and you know writers that like, hey, it'd be really cool to trade work with that person.
00:46:43
Lindsay Franklin
I really vibe with their stuff or whatever. You can start a group. You can just do it and just invite people, you know, hey, would you want to do this?
00:46:47
Paul Regnier
That's true. Yeah.
00:46:50
Lindsay Franklin
And, you know, it doesn't have to be a huge formal thing or something that's organized by somebody else, if you really like, you know, feel that kind of motivation to do that, and you can't find that group elsewhere, you do it, you start it and you be the one.
00:47:06
Paul Regnier
Yeah. You know, what's funny, my friend told me that a couple of years ago when I, before I found my online group, when I was in between groups, I was looking for a group.
00:47:08
Lindsay Franklin
Oh,
00:47:14
Paul Regnier
He goes, he goes, yeah, why don't you just use that? um I don't know if it's an app or website. I think it's called Meetup or something like that.
00:47:22
Lindsay Franklin
uh-huh. Yeah.
00:47:22
Paul Regnier
where I think that's the name of it. I hope I'm saying the right one, where you post something and you can be very specific you know about what you're looking for other fantasy writers who want to meet monthly and talk about you know fantasy books and whatever.
00:47:36
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:47:37
Paul Regnier
So you can be really specific. And again, like like you said, you're the one that's like, instead of waiting around, you're like, well, I'm just going to make this happen. you know I'm just going to like reach out and and find this and start this thing.
00:47:46
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:47:50
Paul Regnier
um
00:47:50
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:47:51
Paul Regnier
I hope I'm saying the right. Meetup?
00:47:53
Lindsay Franklin
I think you are. I think you are. Because i I feel like one of my sons has mentioned that to me when talking about trying to find like a D&D group or something like a local.
00:47:55
Paul Regnier
Okay.
00:47:58
Paul Regnier
Okay.
00:48:01
Lindsay Franklin
So that's, yes, it's for everything.
00:48:01
Paul Regnier
Oh, right. Yeah, because it's for everything. It's for anything like, hey, looking for people that like cross-country biking or something like that.
00:48:04
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:48:08
Lindsay Franklin
Yes. Yeah.
00:48:09
Paul Regnier
i I got nervous that I was recommending some dating site or something.
00:48:09
Lindsay Franklin
And that's like, yeah.
00:48:13
Lindsay Franklin
Like a dating app.
00:48:14
Paul Regnier
right
00:48:15
Lindsay Franklin
That's really funny.
00:48:16
Paul Regnier
Right?
00:48:17
Lindsay Franklin
No, I think that that's a really good idea if you really want an in-person group because That type of app is going to be, you know, filtering for, yes, it's just for your area because that's the whole
00:48:22
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:48:26
Paul Regnier
Cause it's localized, right? Yeah. For local. Yeah. Right.
Conclusion and Reflection
00:48:30
Lindsay Franklin
idea.
00:48:30
Lindsay Franklin
it's And it's designed to help people find connections because in our world that has evolved to be so online, it's gotten harder and harder for people to find in-person connections.
00:48:41
Lindsay Franklin
And so I think that's kind of the point of apps like that is to be able to, you know, get people using technology to get people together in person in those kind of, you know, i don't know what we, and analog meetings.
00:48:41
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:48:49
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:48:53
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:48:55
Lindsay Franklin
I don't know what we'd call them in-person meetings yet.
00:48:55
Paul Regnier
ah Right. Well, because those you can filter through what you're looking for. So if there was another writer looking for something, you can just look for like writer groups or something like that.
00:49:00
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:49:05
Paul Regnier
And hopefully yours will show up if you started one.
00:49:06
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:49:07
Paul Regnier
Or or maybe you can find one that's already in existence. That would be cool too. So anyways, yeah, that's just another random thought.
00:49:11
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:49:15
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, that's very cool. So I think that those are kind of the best leads, I think, that aside from those just serendipitous ones, and sometimes that happens. So just also keep your ears open and your eyes open for, you know, like at church or at, you know, if you're at a community group, or if you're, you know, talking to another parent at your kid's school or whatever, and just listening for people who are like, oh, I write, or, you know, it's it's actually amazing how many,
00:49:40
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Or even at your job, maybe you'll find a coworker that writes on the side as a side hustle or something.
00:49:43
Lindsay Franklin
yeah mrs Yeah, exactly.
00:49:46
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:49:47
Lindsay Franklin
My little local bookstore in my town, which is, my town is small. And I mean, I'm near i'm near Vancouver, Washington. I'm near Portland, Oregon. So it's like, these are are larger cities, but my city is little.
00:49:59
Lindsay Franklin
And just within my city, there are like five professional writers or something within this city that our local bookshop like stocks our books there.
00:50:05
Paul Regnier
Wow.
00:50:10
Lindsay Franklin
It's crazy how many of us are are professional authors you know in this little tiny town. it's It's bizarre. So there might be more out there than you realize. So keep your ears open for stuff like that.
00:50:20
Lindsay Franklin
If I was looking for an in-person critique group, I would be like, hey, to my bookstore owner, here's my info. When you talk to these other authors, because we're not ever in the shop at the same time, but hey, when you talk to them, If they're looking for that type of group, um just give them my info.
00:50:30
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Right.
00:50:37
Lindsay Franklin
Tell them to reach out because I'd love to you know start a little something in the area. That would be a great way to get something going.
00:50:42
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Or you could go old school if they have like one of those old quirk message boards. You could do the flyer looking for a critique group.
00:50:48
Lindsay Franklin
but The little tab that you pull off your phone number.
00:50:51
Paul Regnier
With the yeah the phone number tab. Do places still do that? Or is that that maybe that's too old school.
00:50:56
Lindsay Franklin
Oh, my gosh.
00:50:57
Paul Regnier
I don't know.
00:50:57
Lindsay Franklin
oh
00:50:58
Paul Regnier
um Well, very good.
00:50:58
Lindsay Franklin
I don't know.
00:51:00
Paul Regnier
i think that's all I have. any and Do we leave anything else out?
00:51:05
Lindsay Franklin
I think that I think we've got it just, you know, looking for well like what makes up a good critique group. We've mentioned the skill range. We've mentioned the genre cohesion.
00:51:13
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:51:15
Lindsay Franklin
We mentioned um able to both give and get.
00:51:15
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:51:19
Lindsay Franklin
And one one more thing.
00:51:19
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:51:20
Lindsay Franklin
Here's my closing thought is bonus thought.
00:51:21
Paul Regnier
Oh, bonus thought.
00:51:24
Lindsay Franklin
um Looking for other people who have the same level of commitment that you have to it.
00:51:29
Paul Regnier
Yes, that's important.
00:51:31
Lindsay Franklin
This is why I am not a member of a regular group at this time, because I know that I cannot commit to it right now.
00:51:31
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:51:38
Lindsay Franklin
I don't have enough extra time to pour into it.
00:51:39
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:51:42
Lindsay Franklin
I'm hopeful that in the next couple of years, I might be able to kind of restart something like that, but I cannot give enough time.
00:51:47
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:51:49
Lindsay Franklin
And so it would be unfair for me to join a group like that and you know, become kind of a time suck for everybody else. So that, that is a really important feature as well.
00:51:59
Lindsay Franklin
People who are willing to put in as much as you're wanting to put in and making sure you're all on the same page. If your group is very chill and low commitment, that's totally fine. As long as that's what everybody is, that the same page, you know, everybody's on that page.
00:52:12
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:52:13
Lindsay Franklin
If it's like a much more structured, regular thing with a set number of words, set number of meetings that you're going to do everybody, you know, or generally needs to be on board with that, in my opinion.
00:52:26
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that's good. That's good. Hey, by the way, ah last little thing I forgot to mention, this is our 20th episode. So we've hit episode 20.
00:52:36
Paul Regnier
I feel like that's kind of a milestone. That's pretty cool.
00:52:38
Lindsay Franklin
It is. That's awesome.
00:52:39
Paul Regnier
So yeah, yay for us.
00:52:40
Lindsay Franklin
Love that. Yay for us. And thank you, everybody, for joining us for 20 episodes. That's amazing.
00:52:47
Paul Regnier
20 episodes. Yeah, thank you, everyone. Hope you're enjoying it. And thank you for listening today. And we'll see you next time.
00:52:54
Lindsay Franklin
Bye.