Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 10: Finding Your Niche
31 Plays5 days ago
In this episode, we tackle the ever-mysterious question of finding your niche as a writer. From choosing the right genre to honing your authentic author voice, we explore how authors can figure out where their personality, interests, and instincts fit most naturally in the marketplace–and how that sweet spot is often where your most compelling work and enthusiastic readers live. If you’ve ever wondered where you “belong” as a writer, this conversation is for you.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Finding Your Niche
00:00:14
Lindsay Franklin
Hello, welcome everybody to the podcast. I am Lindsay Franklin.
00:00:18
Paul Regnier
And I'm Paul Regner.
00:00:20
Lindsay Franklin
And today we are going to be talking about finding your niche in the publishing world. And speaking of that, Paul has some news.
00:00:31
Lindsay Franklin
Do you want to share with us, Paul?
00:00:32
Paul Regnier
I do. i do. I have fancy new book news. And look, I have a visual aid for those watching on YouTube.
00:00:36
Lindsay Franklin
Beautiful.
00:00:39
Paul Regnier
This is my new book.
00:00:40
Lindsay Franklin
Beautiful. to follow
00:00:40
Paul Regnier
Just launched the most dangerous pet shop. I don't know if you can see that on the camera. Let me see if I can move it around here.
00:00:46
Lindsay Franklin
It's so cool. Yeah, that's good. Beautiful. That cover is gorgeous.
00:00:51
Paul Regnier
Yes.
00:00:52
Lindsay Franklin
i love it.
00:00:53
Paul Regnier
Oh, thank you. This is a middle grade fantasy book.
00:00:54
Lindsay Franklin
yeah
00:00:57
Paul Regnier
And it's a lot like, you know, it's my style. It's lighthearted fantasy with some humor. And the audience for this is middle grade. But, you know, anyone can probably read it and enjoy it.
00:01:09
Paul Regnier
um So, yeah, no, I'm excited. just Just launched. So, you know, fingers crossed. It's always exciting to send a new book out there in the world. But just cool that we're able to do this, you know, writing and publishing books. like what a But a privilege, right?
00:01:25
Lindsay Franklin
A hundred percent. And the reason I say that ties in so well with what we're talking about today is because I have read the blurb for this book.
00:01:30
Paul Regnier
Yes.
00:01:33
Lindsay Franklin
And when I read the blurb, I think that is so very Paul. this it just it's It is Paul a hundred percent.
00:01:38
Paul Regnier
It is.
00:01:40
Lindsay Franklin
And so Paul's readers who love the humor and the whimsy of you know the fantasy stories in particular, I think are really going to
Personal Style and Writing Journey
00:01:50
Lindsay Franklin
connect with this.
00:01:50
Lindsay Franklin
And that's very related to what we're going to be discussing today about finding your niche and your unique space in the market.
00:01:54
Paul Regnier
It is... it is
00:01:59
Paul Regnier
Yeah, no, for sure. like And and the the funny thing is it's something I didn't even really think of when I started. like when i I just thought, like I guess it was more intuitive, like, oh, I like these kinds of stories and oh, I'd like to write a story like that. right And I didn't even think of, um I guess it would be more of the marketing side of things, like where is this book going to fit in the bookshelves of the store or in the categories on Amazon or you know wherever online? But that's like so important from a marketing perspective.
00:02:34
Paul Regnier
And once you start you know publishing and getting your stuff out there, you realize how important that is that you fit like really well into a niche. And that even can become your author brand. Like for some people,
00:02:47
Paul Regnier
um like The people that the book marketers love are those that write a certain type of book and that's all they write you know from here to eternity. It's like they're always writing the exact same genre.
00:02:59
Paul Regnier
Now I've hopped around a little bit, so I'm not the book promotion marketer's dream, but I'm kind of like their nightmare.
00:03:08
Lindsay Franklin
So say we all, so say we all for one reason or another, right?
00:03:09
Paul Regnier
Yeah, right? Yeah, so my problem is like going where the inspiration leads sometimes kind of takes me on different roads. However, everything I've done has been under the broader speculative fiction umbrella. So it's not like I'm you know writing romance and then mystery and then science fiction. I'm not that out there, which I think would be a mistake because you'd lose so many readers along the way.
Exploring Genres and Author Brand
00:03:38
Paul Regnier
But i think the important thing is, and what I always say is, what books have resonated the most with you? Like that brought you to this point where you're thinking, oh, now I want to write books.
00:03:52
Paul Regnier
Like I would say, like make a list of your top 10, say favorite books that have inspired you. and And then what is it about those? Like what is the style of writing that inspires you? And what categories would you typically find those books in?
00:04:08
Paul Regnier
And then that's, I think, a great indicator of where your stuff would fall. What do you think? Is that kind of along the lines of what you're thinking?
00:04:17
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah, I think so too. And it's it's interesting because in the days when we got started, you know I think it was more common for writers to have no idea about any of this kind of before they jumped into the industry.
00:04:31
Lindsay Franklin
I think these days, because the internet has grown a lot in the days since we started, I feel like the brand new, I'm saying that kind of in quotes, the brand newbie
00:04:32
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:04:42
Lindsay Franklin
writers who I encounter at conferences and such, they seem to be savvier and a little more educated about the market than I feel I was in my very early days when I was just getting started.
00:04:50
Paul Regnier
Interesting.
00:04:54
Lindsay Franklin
And I think, you know, they're doing research online and figuring some of these things out a little bit sooner um in their careers, which is great because you do need to think about that. And I definitely made a lot of missteps along the way early in my career in trying to figure out what genre should I be writing?
00:05:13
Lindsay Franklin
And what should my voice sound like? There's a lot of things that tie into that um are into what we're talking about today, finding your niche. it It is about genre. It's also about how the words come out on the page, which is what your author voice is, right?
00:05:28
Lindsay Franklin
And it's also about your personality, what's sustainable for you.
00:05:29
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:05:33
Lindsay Franklin
Like Paul, you mentioned that you have hopped a little bit genre wise or sub genre wise, because everything's been under that broad speculative umbrella. But I'm going to guess that due to your personality, it's really important for you to be able to do that and not be tied to one very narrow specific thing, that's not necessarily going to be sustainable for you as an artist.
00:05:56
Lindsay Franklin
That's not going to feel fulfilling if you are absolutely married to one tiny subgenre in an effort to be, you know, the book marketer's dream, um you know, and and that's a very important thing to consider in sort of crafting a career as an author that feels sustainable and like something that inspires you continually because this industry is so hard.
00:06:05
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
00:06:23
Lindsay Franklin
It's not an easy one. We do it because we love it. And so you have to make sure that you're going to keep loving it. So these are all really important things to consider.
00:06:33
Paul Regnier
Yeah, and that's, to see, so that's, like, I listen to a lot of podcasts and read articles on book marketing. And they are, some of them, I would say most of them are presented from those people that specialize in book marketing, but they might not themselves be writers of fiction.
00:06:54
Paul Regnier
They might write some nonfiction or like how to make your book you know sell 10,000 copies in the first month or something like that.
00:07:01
Lindsay Franklin
Sure.
00:07:02
Paul Regnier
right They'll do those type of things, but it's it's mostly about strategy and marketing and and business. right And you'll hear them say things like, well, um they'll present this ah like um choice to you.
Creativity vs. Market Expectations
00:07:18
Paul Regnier
They'll say you either look at your writing as a business and you take it seriously as a business and pursue it as a business, or you're just writing as a hobby, you know, and they'll almost like put you down unless you're going in the path that they recommend, you know, and I think like,
00:07:29
Lindsay Franklin
Hmm.
00:07:33
Lindsay Franklin
Don't like that.
00:07:34
Paul Regnier
right And I always think like, well, you can do both, right?
00:07:36
Lindsay Franklin
Do not like that.
00:07:39
Paul Regnier
Like you don't have to necessarily become some business robot that like, oh, i have to be I have to confine my creativity to these guardrails that you have arbitrarily put up because they fit in the business.
00:07:39
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:07:52
Paul Regnier
Now, is their advice good from a business marketing sense? Yes, it is. However, um the most important thing I think you could do as an author is kind of like what we've talked about, be your authentic self and and um and your voice, like you mentioned.
00:08:07
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:08:10
Paul Regnier
like your What is your author voice? like You always have to be true to that. And I think both of us have, I think you mentioned too, you have a story kind of like mine, like the first book that we both wrote. we We almost did that where we're like, oh, we have to write like these mentors that we've, like when I wrote, my very first book was like a fantasy book.
00:08:31
Paul Regnier
And I wrote it a little um stiff. right like i I felt like, oh, I have to write a little more serious.
00:08:36
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:08:39
Paul Regnier
And I have to write more like a Lewis or Tolkien or whoever, you know Terry Brooks or like these books that I grew up in that I kind of had a sense for, like, oh, I like that.
00:08:50
Paul Regnier
But it wasn't me. So even when you when I read that early writing back, I could tell like, oh my gosh, I'm not being myself. I'm not like allowing my personality to just be free.
00:09:03
Paul Regnier
um And then once I discovered that, once I just said like, ah, forget it, you know, I'm just going to enjoy this process of writing. That's where I first started to find what they call my voice, which is like your author style of writing.
00:09:17
Paul Regnier
And mine tends to be more like lighthearted with humor, quirky characters, like fun banter between characters, and you're going on an adventure. and And that's the other thing that remains consistent throughout all my stories, even though like, yes, I might write science fiction, and then all of a sudden cozy mystery, what? And then fantasy, and like it seems all over the place, but the style is always the same all the way through. So so while I always encourage authors, yes, like be true to yourself,
00:09:46
Paul Regnier
you do have to kind of keep in mind, like, okay, like you are going to gather readers along the way and they're going to want to follow you. But if you completely change, like we all know those bands that like they come out and they're like, oh great, this is this cool new modern rock band.
00:10:03
Paul Regnier
And then all of a sudden they put on a next album. It's like country, what are you talking about? You know? And it's like maybe them trying to like revive something, but it's like, you get kind of upset. Like this isn't you, you rock.
00:10:14
Paul Regnier
What are you doing?
00:10:15
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:10:15
Paul Regnier
um Now, you know some people make it work. Darius Rucker made it work you know from Hootie to Darius.
00:10:21
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, he did.
00:10:22
Paul Regnier
So some people can make it work.
00:10:22
Lindsay Franklin
He jumped. He did.
00:10:24
Paul Regnier
Yeah, the
00:10:24
Lindsay Franklin
ah You know, that actually brought to mind for me, um I think it was the Goo Goo Dolls. And we're we're mentioning Hootie and the Blowfish and the Goo Goo Dolls.
00:10:31
Paul Regnier
fans.
00:10:33
Lindsay Franklin
Like, we're dating ourselves a little bit here, guys.
00:10:34
Paul Regnier
Yeah. ninety s and ninety s fans
00:10:35
Lindsay Franklin
But hang with us. We were teenagers in the 90s, okay? But, yeah, so i I think it was them where their first really big breakout hit was almost like a a ballad.
00:10:48
Lindsay Franklin
I don't know if a ballad is, it it was a rock ballad, but still, you know, in that kind of zone and so slower and more, you know, emotional.
00:10:49
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm.
00:10:58
Lindsay Franklin
And I want to say it was like in a movie soundtrack, city of angels or something like, I don't know, something like that.
00:11:04
Paul Regnier
okay
00:11:05
Lindsay Franklin
um Anyway, and that, that catapulted them. They'd been a band for years and years and years and years working in kind of local scenes and stuff. And then this catapulted them to massive international, success.
00:11:18
Lindsay Franklin
And it was weird for them because they normally played more like hard rock type stuff. And so their identity broadly became kind of this sound that they felt like, yeah, we did that and that's us.
00:11:31
Lindsay Franklin
But, you know, is that our normal sound?
00:11:32
Paul Regnier
That's funny.
00:11:34
Lindsay Franklin
It was kind of this like one-off thing that they did. So it it kind of is. And i I can't even think of another huge hit that they had. Maybe I'm wrong on that. um It's not like I've been following the career super closely, not going to lie, but, you know, it's, it can be a difficult thing when you become huge for something that's this like weird little one-off and it's not really what you do, then what?
00:11:56
Lindsay Franklin
You've got the pressure to kind of produce more of that or go back to who you truly are and and probably lose, you know, a lot of your listeners or readers in our case.
00:12:05
Paul Regnier
That's interesting. I wonder if they looked at that as like a curse, like, oh, we'll do this one little slow song.
00:12:07
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:12:11
Paul Regnier
And then that became their they're like, oh, no.
00:12:12
Lindsay Franklin
but Now what? They were laughing all the way to the bank.
00:12:16
Paul Regnier
Hey, fun fact.
00:12:18
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:12:19
Paul Regnier
fun Fun podcast fact. Back when I was a drummer in a band, we opened for the Goo Goo Dolls one time.
00:12:25
Lindsay Franklin
Are you kidding me?
00:12:26
Paul Regnier
Yep. Little fun fact.
00:12:29
Lindsay Franklin
What are the odds that I would bring them up of all people?
00:12:29
Paul Regnier
ah but What are the odds?
00:12:32
Lindsay Franklin
And I'm pretty sure it was them. i am pretty sure it was them.
00:12:34
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:12:35
Lindsay Franklin
That's crazy. Wild.
00:12:39
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:12:40
Lindsay Franklin
Anyway, we digress as we do.
00:12:41
Paul Regnier
Anyways. Yes, I know.
00:12:42
Lindsay Franklin
We digress.
00:12:43
Paul Regnier
Now my, my mind is in nineties bands. um So yeah. So again, like you
Understanding Audience Expectations
00:12:51
Paul Regnier
can still be authentic as long as certain things remain the same. Like I said, like, yeah, it seems like maybe I hopped around a little, but my author's voice, my style remained the same. So I think, um,
00:13:04
Paul Regnier
um A lot of the people that like to read my stuff, they followed me along that journey, even though they're like, oh, like cozy mystery. What what are you doing? But then what if they started to give it a chance? Like, oh, OK, it's still, you know, it's still like Paul's writing. OK, whatever. even though they may prefer like, okay, go back to fantasy or whatever. But I think it's nice to have that freedom too as an author. you know And it's hard it's hard if we are um financially dependent on a certain thing. That's where it gets a little tricky. if if it's like Especially if we lock into...
00:13:44
Paul Regnier
you know, like some hit and then it's like, uh-oh, I better keep riding along this series or whatever, which might not be so bad, right?
00:13:50
Lindsay Franklin
this
00:13:51
Paul Regnier
You get a hit book and then it's like, cool, I'll write 10 more, you know, no problem.
00:13:52
Lindsay Franklin
Sure.
00:13:57
Paul Regnier
That's always fine, but I'll call that the Goo Goo Dolls dilemma, right? that
00:14:01
Lindsay Franklin
I'm going to have to like fact check myself and not make sure it really was them. I'm pretty sure it was. i
00:14:06
Paul Regnier
Was City of Angels, was that the Nicolas Cage movie?
00:14:09
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:14:09
Paul Regnier
Nick Cage, Meg Ryan?
00:14:09
Lindsay Franklin
And Meg Ryan.
00:14:11
Paul Regnier
I remember that movie.
00:14:11
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:14:12
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that was an odd movie.
00:14:13
Lindsay Franklin
And I don't even think I've seen the movie.
00:14:14
Paul Regnier
result
00:14:17
Paul Regnier
Oh, I saw it in the theater back in the day.
00:14:17
Lindsay Franklin
But i know I know the song. I know the song.
00:14:22
Paul Regnier
But I'm dating myself again.
00:14:22
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah, that's really that's really interesting.
00:14:24
Paul Regnier
and
00:14:25
Lindsay Franklin
I'm going to have to look it up and see if I am completely misremembering that or if that really did happen.
00:14:27
Paul Regnier
and
00:14:30
Lindsay Franklin
But I'm almost 100% sure. i watched an interview.
00:14:33
Paul Regnier
Well, they were definitely around in those days, so it's entirely possible.
00:14:35
Lindsay Franklin
yes they were. Yes, they were.
00:14:38
Paul Regnier
but um But yeah, like so i guess the long and short of this is there are certain categories in Amazon, and it's important to know who reads those categories if your book is going to eventually go into those.
00:14:39
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:14:52
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:14:54
Paul Regnier
like So for me... I knew that humorous fantasy, which is a subcategory on Amazon under fantasy, was where my books like fit well because I looked at the books around like, oh, they're humorous fantasy too. Now, my recent pivot has been because I started to read in that sub-genre, which is also important to do. If you're going to put your book on the shelf next to these other books, it's important to read some of those, especially like the bestsellers and know, okay, what am i like am I stacking up
00:15:30
Paul Regnier
you know, number one quality wise, am I, and do I fit, do I even fit next to these books? Because if you find a fan of that sub genre and they're like, oh, cool, what's this new book? And you disappoint them.
00:15:43
Paul Regnier
Like you're so different than they're like, ah, like you could be a great, you know It could be a great story, but if it doesn't fit where you're saying it fits on the shelf, that could disappoint readers.
00:15:54
Paul Regnier
So it's really important to kind of find, you know like you said, your niche. like where Where does that like perfect spot where it's like someone who loves this category sees your new book and they're going to give you a shot.
00:16:06
Paul Regnier
And then they'll say like, oh, this is the kind of stuff I love to read. That's what you want, right? So my recent pivot has been towards the middle grade
00:16:12
Lindsay Franklin
Yep. Mm-hmm.
00:16:17
Paul Regnier
fantasy. It's humorous fantasy. And I did that because I was paying attention to reader responses and the category. Like I looked at humorous fantasy and I said, okay, I pretty much fit here, but a lot of the books I'm seeing, um, are a little, tend to get a little more crass or crude or whatever, because they're written for adults. Right.
00:16:41
Paul Regnier
So they'll put in the type or in mine is generally pretty clean. um And so I looked at middle grade and I'm like, oh, this fantasy is expected to be humorous.
00:16:54
Paul Regnier
It's lighthearted adventure. And I'm like, that's what I do. And it's expected to be clean. So I thought, OK, that's a really good fit.
00:17:04
Paul Regnier
And some of the responses I was getting from readers, like it I felt like the middle grade readers were giving me almost the most enthusiastic response. Whereas some people might say, oh, you know, that was a cool book.
00:17:16
Paul Regnier
Yeah, I liked it. A middle grade reader might be like, dude, that was awesome. That's my new favorite book. You know, that's a different response where I'm like, okay, I'm striking a nerve.
00:17:21
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:17:25
Paul Regnier
So I think it's important to kind of like use your own intuition and then also listen to reader feedback. And that helps you find out. And then when you get to that spot, like that's where I think you can be the most successful.
00:17:39
Paul Regnier
Does that all make sense?
00:17:39
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:17:40
Paul Regnier
Did I lather on a lot about it?
00:17:42
Lindsay Franklin
No, I think you've actually hit on something really important several times there, which is the fact that genre categories and even down to these very narrow Amazon categories, because we have kind of the larger ones, we have the library categories, and then we have these super tiny niches um that Amazon separates out.
00:18:00
Paul Regnier
Right. Yeah.
00:18:05
Lindsay Franklin
it makes it easier for readers to find exactly what they're looking for. um And sometimes Amazon just goes wild and puts, at least for trad authors, I don't know if this that this is the same for indie authors, but we we at Enclave, for example, will submit a book with library categories attached to it, like the bisects is what those are called, those little codes.
00:18:23
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:18:25
Lindsay Franklin
And then sometimes Amazon just puts it wherever it feels like and based on keywords and stuff. And it's never completely insane. I can always look at what we submitted and where they put it and figure out how they got there.
00:18:37
Paul Regnier
Huh.
00:18:38
Lindsay Franklin
But, um you know, for example, The Unraveling of Emlyn Dulane, which is the first book in my Rivenly sphere duology, that one, you know, we submitted under young adult Christian fantasy, young adult, I don't even know what other contemporary fantasy maybe because it's a portal fantasy and whatever else we had for the kind of official library categories.
00:19:00
Lindsay Franklin
And one of the Amazon categories for that book is wizard and witches Wizards and Witches or something like that. um So that's kind of where like a Harry Potter type of book would sit in that category.
00:19:11
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:19:12
Lindsay Franklin
And that's not what Emlyn is, but they pulled on that because I think, I think in the keywords, we probably have the Wizard of Oz in there because that ties in massively to that story.
00:19:23
Paul Regnier
Oh, right.
00:19:26
Lindsay Franklin
So they pulled the keyword wizard and were like, that's what this book is.
00:19:27
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:19:30
Lindsay Franklin
So that's kind of funny where a couple of readers noticed that and they were like, wizards and witches, like what, what is this book? Is this a, is this a Harry Potter kind of thing? no, that's just Amazon doing Amazon things.
00:19:39
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:19:42
Lindsay Franklin
But um yeah, so that's, it's interesting because every single one of these sub genres and these niche categories has reader expectations attached to it.
00:19:54
Lindsay Franklin
That's kind of what genre is, really.
00:19:55
Paul Regnier
Right. Right.
00:19:57
Lindsay Franklin
it's It's the set of defined characteristics that a book in that category is going to have. So if you promise readers this is a mystery, they're going to expect certain things that that come in that category.
00:20:11
Lindsay Franklin
If you say fantasy, they're going to expect certain things with that. If you say humorous fantasy, if you say teen wizards and witches, they're going to expect certain things in that category.
00:20:22
Lindsay Franklin
And so I think that my my book is enough that like someone kind of looking for a Harry Potter would probably like not be extremely disappointed with Emlyn, but it's it's certainly not the best fit for that.
00:20:35
Lindsay Franklin
And I wish I could change it, but I can't. yeah That's an Amazon thing.
00:20:37
Paul Regnier
Well, yeah but yeah, and you know, there's some interesting things that goes into um where your book lands when you publish on Amazon.
00:20:38
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:20:45
Paul Regnier
Because I know on Amazon, there's there's two sections where you define where you think your book should like end up on the category list of Amazon book categories. So one is they will say, choose three categories that we've already defined, which made which are different from those library bisac categories.
00:21:09
Paul Regnier
But I think Amazon's trying to reinvent all that.
00:21:09
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:21:12
Paul Regnier
i don't I think they're just like, ah, forget that.
00:21:13
Lindsay Franklin
I think so.
00:21:15
Paul Regnier
We're doing our own thing. um but they So you pick three categories.
00:21:16
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:21:21
Paul Regnier
And you want to make sure that those are actual main categories. You don't want to go too sub-sub. You want to go sub-category if it's an actual...
00:21:27
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:21:30
Paul Regnier
like There's this whole thing with quote-unquote ghost categories, like Kindlepreneur talks about these, where they're it's almost like Amazon's trying to figure out emerging categories, but it's not an actual thing that you can rank in yet.
00:21:44
Paul Regnier
So...
00:21:45
Lindsay Franklin
Interesting.
00:21:45
Paul Regnier
That's where it's good to have a tool like Publisher Rocket to make sure. But anyway, so you find your three main categories and that's how you say, hey, Amazon, this is where I think my book should fit.
00:21:57
Paul Regnier
And then the other part is they give you a section where you define seven keywords. And those are where you really want to do some research to find out. And it's very related.
00:22:10
Paul Regnier
But like, for example, let's say... I choose the category of humorous fantasy as one of my Amazon, three Amazon categories. Then when it gets down to the seven like keywords, I'll put in something a little more specific and I can put in like um humorous fantasy, middle grade, you know,
00:22:35
Paul Regnier
for ages, you know eight to 13 or something like that. Like maybe that might be a little too long, but something that's a little more narrowly defining what you are.
00:22:45
Paul Regnier
And again, you can do keyword research like that kind of thing for with Publisher Rocket or, you know, you could do it manually, but Publisher Rocket makes it a lot easier. It sounds like I'm doing a commercial for Publisher Rocket.
00:22:57
Paul Regnier
We don't make any money from Publisher Rocket.
00:22:59
Lindsay Franklin
we are not We are not sponsored, but if Publisher Rocket wants to sponsor us, they hit me up.
00:23:00
Paul Regnier
We're not affiliated. Yeah, that's right.
00:23:04
Lindsay Franklin
where you know The DMs are open, guys.
00:23:06
Paul Regnier
Dave Chesson. Dave Chesson, give us a call. um No, but yeah, we're not affiliated. I don't have affiliate links or anything like that. I just use this tool and I find it very powerful. So I always recommend it.
00:23:18
Paul Regnier
um But yeah, so finding those those seven keywords that help even more narrowly define where you think your book should end up. And those relate to what you imagine someone's gonna type in the search. Let's say someone doesn't go down that category tree, they just go straight up to the search bar and they're like, um fantasy books, great for boys age 11.
00:23:45
Paul Regnier
that might be a great search term. And again, i'm sounding like a broken record here, Publisher Rocket has that thing where it can where it can actually tell you if you put that key phrase in, like how many people are searching for that actual key phrase a month.
00:24:01
Lindsay Franklin
It's very cool.
00:24:02
Paul Regnier
and what kind of sales is it generating. It's just, it's such a powerful marketing tool. That's why I keep going on and on about it. but And it helps you define those seven. But, okay, so, and then lastly, so those are the two sections that you input.
00:24:16
Paul Regnier
And then lastly, once you publish your book, that um the copy, the teaser copy you put on the back of your book that that says the summary of what your book is all about.
00:24:29
Paul Regnier
there are certain keywords you could have in there that Amazon's algorithm looks at too and says, oh, okay, this matches what they're saying, or this doesn't quite matter, maybe this sounds like this type of book. um Emelyn Delane sounds like a witch or a wizard. Let's put her in that. you know Whatever you have on the back of the book.
00:24:45
Lindsay Franklin
Yay.
00:24:47
Paul Regnier
um that And I think i think um Amazon's AI is powerful enough now where it can actually browse through your entire novel and look kind of like judge, oh, this seems like this type of book.
00:24:59
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:25:03
Paul Regnier
Now, that one, I don't know. I'm just sort of like, I think I've read an article or two that like hint that maybe that's going on, but who knows what Amazon's doing in the background with all their AI stuff.
00:25:10
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:25:14
Lindsay Franklin
We never know. We never know.
00:25:15
Paul Regnier
You never know, right?
00:25:15
Lindsay Franklin
And no.
00:25:16
Paul Regnier
And it always changes. Yep.
00:25:17
Lindsay Franklin
And so much of it is it changes constantly. And so much of it is kind of proprietary that they don't make a lot of that public. But that wouldn't surprise me. And what we're doing right now is highlighting a little bit the differences between trad and indie in this particular area, because Paul is going through all of these things and stuff that
00:25:34
Paul Regnier
Hmm. Hmm.
00:25:41
Lindsay Franklin
he has backend control of, whereas i am submitting my manuscript to my publisher. And because I am managing editor at Enclave, I happen to have access to the backend. And so I know what it all looks like there, because this is something that I actually do personally for our eBooks is I am the one who uploads them and puts in those seven keywords and puts in the categories. It's just part of my day job. So I see what that looks like on the publisher end. And we have access to Some of the things that you're talking about, the keywords are the same.
00:26:14
Lindsay Franklin
I don't see with the publisher version of where we put in our eBooks, I don't have access to Amazon's exact categories and subcategories the way that I think you maybe do on KDP. It's a little bit different. And so as an indie author, you can do a lot of research and invest in a tool like Publisher Rocket and and figure this stuff out to a different degree than a traditional publisher probably can or is. So it's it's a little bit of one of those other kind of leg up things, especially if this type of research and getting into this side of the business really appeals to you, then that might be something to consider about when you're trying to decide traditional or indie publishing, like which one is right for you.
Traditional vs. Indie Publishing
00:26:59
Lindsay Franklin
If what we are saying right now about keywords, all of what we're talking about right now is metadata. That's the metadata for your book. And if discussing that makes you, like it gives you hives and you just don't ever want to think about that, TradPub might be for you because then you just get to write the book, you submit it to your publisher, and then someone like me will worry about that for you and you know do what I can with our TradPub tools. So it's it's another one of those many, many things.
00:27:26
Lindsay Franklin
differences between indie and traditional that might help you based on your personality and what you want to be doing with your time, you know, as an author and a self-publisher, potentially, it's going to help you define what is the right fit for you.
00:27:43
Paul Regnier
Yeah, that's funny. that um And maybe that's kind of a part of finding your niche, finding if you're an indie or a trad published author.
00:27:51
Lindsay Franklin
hundred percent.
00:27:52
Paul Regnier
like
00:27:52
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:27:53
Paul Regnier
To me, all this stuff is interesting. like i don't know. It's just like like learning and and doing tweaks and and like, oh, I could...
00:27:59
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:28:02
Paul Regnier
Because to me, it's almost like you're... I don't want to say it's like a video game, but it's it's sort of this interesting thing where you're constantly tweaking and changing and and finding, like you're almost unraveling a mystery in a way, like, oh, if I do this, or if I kind of use these keywords, like, oh, now I'm going to move this way.
00:28:21
Paul Regnier
Oh, I made that change and now i'm ah my book is doing better. It's like it's it's getting more visibility. Like, I like that kind of stuff. It's interesting to me. To other people, that's like a nightmare and a headache and they want nothing to do with it.
00:28:30
Lindsay Franklin
Me too.
00:28:32
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:28:34
Paul Regnier
They're like, oh my gosh, that sounds like so much work, you know, or whatever. Those people would probably be better served as going the traditional route. You know, they're just like, oh, let the publisher handle all that stuff.
00:28:45
Paul Regnier
I just want to write the book.
00:28:47
Lindsay Franklin
Right.
00:28:47
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:28:47
Lindsay Franklin
And that's very, that's very valid, you know?
00:28:48
Paul Regnier
But the indie mind, it is. No, totally is.
00:28:51
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:28:52
Paul Regnier
Different personalities and whatnot. But the indie mind sort of like gets excited about that kind of stuff. It's almost like, that oh, cool.
00:28:58
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:28:59
Paul Regnier
This is like i'm I'm working, I'm tweaking, and I'm kind of like you know charting my own course. And you know I'm the captain of my own destiny. I don't know. it's ah I don't know what that says about
00:29:11
Lindsay Franklin
You know I'm going to clip i'm going to clip that soundbite and just put that with no context on you know like the promo reel for this episode.
00:29:16
Paul Regnier
Yes. Right.
00:29:19
Lindsay Franklin
Just, I'm the captain of my own destiny, Ragnar.
00:29:21
Paul Regnier
You wait for me to say the most ridiculous thing and you're like, that's what I'm going to use right there.
00:29:28
Lindsay Franklin
Sorry.
00:29:30
Paul Regnier
No, it's totally fine. But so I'm trying to think. um Yeah. So again, i would always start with like, what are sort of your top 10 books that you really love? Because I think the type, the your favorite type of books to read should probably be the books that you're writing, the type of books that you're writing. Would you agree with that?
00:29:54
Lindsay Franklin
I think so. And I think that it's also good to dive deep into why you like something. So, for example, i have really eclectic taste when it comes to music, when it comes to movies, when it comes to books.
00:30:03
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:30:10
Lindsay Franklin
I have always read widely in all genres. I listen to all different kinds of music with country maybe being the only one I don't listen to.
00:30:15
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:30:18
Lindsay Franklin
My apologies to Darius Rucker, but it's just not my thing.
00:30:21
Paul Regnier
but
00:30:22
Lindsay Franklin
I'll listen to Hootie. That's fine. But yeah, so you know my tastes are kind of all over the place. So that doesn't mean I should write in 57 different genres.
00:30:33
Lindsay Franklin
I should take my top 10 favorites and they don't all have to be fantasy just because that's the genre that I i write fiction in. um I need to dive deep into why. Why is this on my list?
00:30:44
Lindsay Franklin
It could be that there's ah a pattern there with a particular type of character arc or a particular theme that is being explored or a particular type of villain or a particular author voice or something that just, or a tone, you know something that speaks to me over and over.
00:30:45
Paul Regnier
um and
00:31:02
Lindsay Franklin
And kind of analyzing that can help you go a layer deeper than just favorite fantasy movies or or top mystery books or whatever it is, um you can really get down to the heart of it and figure um figure out how you then take that and apply it to you.
00:31:19
Lindsay Franklin
So we're not saying your top 10 books and then that should be your genre if they're all kind of in the same genre.
00:31:20
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:31:25
Lindsay Franklin
If you have top 10 books and they are all the same genre, yeah, yeah, it's probably the genre you should be writing. But my top 10 would be all over the place because I love to read mysteries. I love to read thrillers. I love when it comes to movies, I love epic war movies, like historical movies and stuff.
00:31:40
Lindsay Franklin
So that doesn't, it's not because I should be a historical fiction author. It's because there is something about the scale and the gravity and kind of the ah the human stories that arise out of really difficult times, such as war, that speaks to me, that resonates for me.
00:32:00
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:32:00
Lindsay Franklin
And that's something that can carry over really easily into the fantasy genre. But you have to do a little bit of that deeper analysis to kind of get at that. It's not that it's the historical that is something I should copy as an artist.
00:32:12
Lindsay Franklin
But it's like that the the scale of the conflict, I think, is what appeals to me about those particular movies. And that means that I might not be the best fit for the subgenre of cozy fantasy, for example, because that's that's part of that subgenre is that the conflict is by nature a little smaller and the stakes are a little less high, they're still important.
00:32:36
Lindsay Franklin
You still have stakes because they're personally important to the protagonist that if you're doing it right, your reader cares about, right? So it doesn't mean that there's no stakes.
00:32:44
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:32:46
Lindsay Franklin
We always say there has to be stakes, right?
00:32:48
Paul Regnier
Right. But you're not saving the world or anything.
00:32:49
Lindsay Franklin
There are Exactly.
00:32:51
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:32:51
Lindsay Franklin
It's the scale of it. And so doing a little bit of that deeper analysis and really like journaling through that and spending some time thinking about that can really help you identify genre niche and tone and themes and all these things that you put all of that together and you add that to really strong craft, you are going to be writing books that are going to find their audience and resonate with that audience over and over and over again because it's about knowing your identity as an artist and delivering that consistently no matter what you're writing to your readers.
00:32:53
Paul Regnier
Yep.
00:33:31
Paul Regnier
Okay, that's a really important distinction. And I realize now I was painting with a little bit too broad of a brush there.
Developing a Unique Writing Voice
00:33:39
Lindsay Franklin
No, it's great.
00:33:39
Paul Regnier
That's absolutely right.
00:33:40
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:33:40
Paul Regnier
like you You start with like your favorite type of stuff, but i think you even learn through a bit of mistakes where you fit.
00:33:50
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:33:50
Paul Regnier
like I think, like I mentioned before, both you and I started writing a book that was similar to the types of books that we really like. right so When I first started on a fantasy book, my first book, I was thinking in the back of my head, oh, I got to be like Tolkien. I got to be like Lewis. I got to be like Terry Brooks or whatever. and so it It felt a little more serious and it was just it felt very un-me. I'm writing it and I'm like, oh, I have to do this and I have rather than just freely writing what
00:34:23
Paul Regnier
I want, what came naturally. Right.
00:34:25
Lindsay Franklin
Mm
00:34:25
Paul Regnier
So I had to sort of learn that through mistakes, which you sometimes do. You just, so actually writing, just getting out just doing the thing is another way of finding out who you are as a writer and where you fit.
00:34:39
Paul Regnier
So even though I really admired certain types of writing, like I really liked Michael Crichton books too. And like, I love Jurassic Park was so good. And one of the rare moments where a movie was,
00:34:52
Paul Regnier
pretty much as good as the book. like Those were both great. you know um
00:34:55
Lindsay Franklin
They're both great.
00:34:57
Paul Regnier
Thank you, Steven Spielberg. But like the there's other Crichton books. There's this one called Sphere, which is probably my favorite Michael Crichton book. and it was so good. It was like, so like, I have to read another chapter. Like, so like, you know, seat of your, uh, edge of your seat kind of reading. Um, but I'll never write like that. It's just not, I love it and it's intriguing and gripping, but I will, I am so not that type of writer. So you're right. Like, yeah, we have our favorite things that we'd like to read or watch, but that might not necessarily be us.
00:35:32
Paul Regnier
And I think the only way to find that is to actually start writing and start you know Just following your writer instincts and and and even like trying sort of writing as an imposter at first like you know with those influences until you kind of find your own way.
00:35:45
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:35:48
Paul Regnier
and You're like, oh, wait, no this is um I kind of let myself go and I just wrote and enjoyed it. And like, oh, okay, this is this is my style. So sometimes you have to find that out by just doing it.
00:35:58
Lindsay Franklin
yes
00:36:02
Paul Regnier
And then once you get to that point, then you can go, okay, like what other books is this like? Oh yeah, this, year like, so for me, I'll do a personal example. Like I liked all those other types of books, but when I started writing, I realized, oh, I like this funny banter between characters. And I like a little more like humorous. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's like those books I read growing up that I really liked. And then I'm like, oh, I would fit really well in that category.
00:36:29
Paul Regnier
story.
00:36:29
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:36:29
Paul Regnier
That's a good match. So sometimes doing that exploration, that writing exploration, and then kind of discovering yourself like, oh, okay, yeah, this is who I am. Now I know where I can mark it to because this feels right.
00:36:42
Paul Regnier
Does that sound accurate? Is that what you did?
00:36:45
Lindsay Franklin
It does. Yes. And I think that is actually kind of the preferred process. I don't know if I should even phrase it that way. I can't think of a different way to phrase it. But I think it's very normal and kind of the way that it should happen where when you're first starting out, you're emulating things.
00:37:03
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:37:03
Lindsay Franklin
you know, others who you're emulating the greats or just people who are your favorites, because they're not always the same. We can have favorites who are not necessarily the greats, right? But the stuff that resonates with you, and when you're first starting out, you're probably learning craft and you're you're still learning a lot of stuff.
00:37:13
Paul Regnier
right
00:37:21
Lindsay Franklin
And so it's very normal and expected to kind of be emulating when you're in that season of your development. It's an important part of your development because you're kind of copying what they're doing.
00:37:31
Lindsay Franklin
You're learning the ropes and you're figuring out how do I write a satisfying you know story arc? How do I write deep characters? How do I do all of this? How do i you know string my words together in a way that is satisfying and all of those things.
00:37:45
Lindsay Franklin
And it's it's expected to kind of be copying what you are consuming during that season.
00:37:45
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:37:50
Lindsay Franklin
And then as you become more comfortable in all of those craft things, that's when your own flavor can really start to become defined and you start to get a sense of this is actually me.
00:38:02
Lindsay Franklin
And yeah, maybe, you know, Tolkien would say it this way, but how how is Paul going to say it? How would Lindsay say that? It's going to be different. And the only way to get a real sense for that, I think there's two pieces to it.
00:38:15
Lindsay Franklin
You have to know who you are and you have to, oh my gosh, I just lost it. Hold on. The ADHD moment. It has to hit at least once an episode, right? um Oh, just writing.
00:38:27
Lindsay Franklin
No, I knew it would come back. You have to write like a million words or something, right?
00:38:28
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Hmm.
00:38:30
Lindsay Franklin
To kind of master the craft. um That's what they say. You write a million words. So you just um have to do it over and over and over. You write and you write some more and you write some more.
00:38:40
Lindsay Franklin
And just over time, you develop a feel for that, especially if you know who you are. And I think You and I have had very parallel journeys when it comes to the humorous piece. And also because we both started out in fantasy, especially, you know, 15, 20
00:38:58
Lindsay Franklin
I think it was very normal to kind of have that, ah where we're emulating that mid-century style, like the Tolkien and Lewis sort of style.
00:39:01
Paul Regnier
Right. Right.
00:39:05
Paul Regnier
right
00:39:07
Lindsay Franklin
um I definitely started off in that place and I was writing portal fantasy, but for some reason, my main character sounded like an elf.
00:39:17
Lindsay Franklin
You know, she sounded like she was from Rivendell and not, you know, America in ah the 2000s, which is exactly where she came from, because it was a portal fantasy. So why does she sound this way?
00:39:29
Lindsay Franklin
i don't know, because that's what my brain is thinking. This is what fantasy sounds like. So it didn't even really.
00:39:33
Paul Regnier
When you go through a magical portal, it changes your speech it's automatically.
00:39:36
Lindsay Franklin
Right. You just you suddenly become elvish and and fancy.
00:39:39
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:39:40
Lindsay Franklin
Yay. Yeah. Yeah, didn't even make sense. But there I was. um And it took me writing a contemporary YA novel to break out of that because I didn't have this weird trapping, you know, in my mind thinking, okay, that type of voice is expected.
00:39:58
Lindsay Franklin
I was thinking it was like a genre convention for fantasy. And it's actually not. It was for that era.
00:40:02
Paul Regnier
Yeah, right.
00:40:03
Lindsay Franklin
You know, it was it was the style in that era. But modern fantasy doesn't have to sound like that. That's not what readers are necessarily expecting. And so it took me writing outside of my genre and just letting that story flow naturally.
00:40:19
Lindsay Franklin
And I wrote it in less than a month, like the whole novel, 80,000 words start to finish. It was done in a month. And
00:40:25
Paul Regnier
Wow.
00:40:26
Paul Regnier
that's not your Is that your typical speed?
00:40:26
Lindsay Franklin
i
00:40:29
Lindsay Franklin
No, my typical speed, if I'm writing kind of comfortably and I have a good outline, four months is a very like comfortable, doable pace for me.
00:40:37
Paul Regnier
Okay, yeah. Yeah, that's similar to me.
00:40:39
Lindsay Franklin
um If I'm on deadline, I'm usually kind of smashing it into less time than that. Not going to lie, but um that's kind of a good spot for me.
00:40:49
Lindsay Franklin
so And I wasn't even pushing that hard to write that book in a month. It just spilled out. It was one of those kind of things.
00:40:54
Paul Regnier
Wow. That's usually a great sign, I think.
00:40:57
Lindsay Franklin
hu That was the one where I found my voice. And even though I'm very glad that novel never got published, um because otherwise I'd be a contemporary writer, and that's not really where I belong.
00:41:01
Paul Regnier
Mm.
00:41:06
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:41:08
Lindsay Franklin
But it was such an important part of my journey and my development in figuring out what my fiction should sound like because both my mom and my agent loved that book so much.
00:41:22
Lindsay Franklin
They were like, oh, this is great. We love this. And it actually got good feedback when I brought it to conferences and stuff too. So there was something about it that was it resonated for people. And I think a big part of that was that I had just found my voice.
00:41:34
Lindsay Franklin
And so it was dealing with serious topics. It was dealing with a lot of heavier stuff, but there was humor in it and a little bit of snark to it. And I realized, okay, this should be in my fantasy too.
00:41:44
Paul Regnier
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:41:47
Lindsay Franklin
This should be in everything I write because that's, that's me. That's what I'm like in person. So if a reader is going to resonate with something on the page, I want it to be me, not, oh, this sounds so ethereal and elvish.
00:42:00
Lindsay Franklin
Well, great. Then they meet me in person and I'm like, hi, I'm a gremlin, not an elf. It's, you know, so no, that's not me. um I want my books to sound like me so that it's, you know, it's just representative across the board of who I am.
00:42:13
Lindsay Franklin
And that is something I can continue to deliver over and over because it's natural to to do that when you're writing from kind of deep within your own identity, if that makes sense.
00:42:23
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like you're then you're resonating with your people, I guess, or your readers, you know the people that like, oh yeah, this, like what for whatever reason, it's like they they get you you.
00:42:38
Paul Regnier
know what I mean? And it's like, oh, I totally get this author.
00:42:39
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:42:41
Paul Regnier
They're writing exactly like where along my wavelength and this is, you know I want to start reading. you know What else does she have out there? I want to read her other stuff. At least that's how it always is when I find an author I like. I'm like, oh my gosh, what else have they written?
00:42:56
Paul Regnier
Um, which is really cool to be able to find that because if you keep changing your style, then you're going to disappoint, you know, people looking for that old style that they fell in love with in the beginning.
00:42:56
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:43:07
Paul Regnier
But, um, what was that thing you said?
00:43:07
Lindsay Franklin
Yes.
00:43:08
Paul Regnier
You said a mil you have to write a million words before. What was that thing?
00:43:12
Lindsay Franklin
Yes. Have you heard that? That they say you have to write.
00:43:15
Paul Regnier
I heard, like I think I've heard like the 10,000 hours.
00:43:16
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:43:18
Paul Regnier
You have to do something 10,000 hours to become an expert. Is it related to that?
00:43:21
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, it's the same concept, same concept where you write, you know, a million words, give or take.
00:43:24
Paul Regnier
Okay.
00:43:27
Lindsay Franklin
ah You know, is that an exact number?
00:43:28
Paul Regnier
Oh, I see. Hmm.
00:43:30
Lindsay Franklin
No. Could it be more or less? Yes. ah But, you know, the idea is that you have to write and write and write and write and write to really master your craft.
00:43:40
Lindsay Franklin
And, you know, of course, you're you're hopefully learning along the way.
00:43:40
Paul Regnier
i see
00:43:44
Lindsay Franklin
It's not just sitting down and rewriting the same thing over and over. It's learning new stuff and then rewriting it, practicing more new ideas, refining as you go. and then you hit that million word mark or however many hours, maybe hours is a better way to, uh, to measure it.
00:43:59
Lindsay Franklin
But yeah,
00:43:59
Paul Regnier
Because I was going to say that's going to sound really intimidating to new authors.
00:44:02
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:44:02
Paul Regnier
They're going be like, what?
00:44:04
Lindsay Franklin
it does.
00:44:04
Paul Regnier
I just finished a 50,000-word book, and you're telling me I need a million?
00:44:04
Lindsay Franklin
you all Yeah. but
00:44:10
Paul Regnier
Do elementary school term papers count in this million words?
00:44:10
Lindsay Franklin
But think about, Yeah.
00:44:15
Lindsay Franklin
You know, that's so funny because I know we're joking about that.
00:44:15
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:44:18
Lindsay Franklin
But I'm thinking back to this for me. I think that writing on social media because I would have been let's see, I started kind of trying to write more seriously like in 2006.
00:44:31
Lindsay Franklin
So 20 years ago now, guys. oh um But Facebook, I know, doesn't it?
00:44:35
Paul Regnier
Time flies.
00:44:37
Lindsay Franklin
Facebook, I joined 2008, 2007. And I wrote that contemporary in 2011. Okay, so just to give you kind of a timeline there, um I started realizing writing on Facebook, just little captions, updating my personal page. I don't mean like marketing or anything, just writing captions. And people I had been going to church with for...
00:45:00
Lindsay Franklin
years and years and years started to get to know me better ah from my Facebook posts than they knew me from like serving in ministry with me side by side. I had traveled internationally with some of these people. And so, yes, it was like through that writing that they got to know me and know my sense of humor. And so I would actually count those words because I was realizing in real time as I was also working on developing writing craft and getting into the industry and all of that because i I got agented right at the end of 2010. So it's like just right in that zone, right? I was realizing, wow, people can actually get to know me better. And as someone who is very introverted and at that time was super shy and didn't necessarily talk very much in person unless forced to, um you know, this was a way that people were getting to know me and they were responding differently.
00:45:53
Lindsay Franklin
well to that, which surprised me.
00:45:54
Paul Regnier
Yep. Yeah.
00:45:55
Lindsay Franklin
I was like, this is weird. like People think I'm funny or people want to be my friend. That's cool. you know um So that was actually part of it. I would count all of those little Facebook posts over the course of what, three or four years that I was writing, those were part of my million words.
00:46:11
Lindsay Franklin
So it doesn't have to just be novels. It's whatever you putting words out there discovering yourself through that it can even be through journaling for some people you know like diving into that so it it does not have to be oh I have to write 10 hundred thousand word novels to get to that point no a hundred percent absolutely yep
00:46:21
Paul Regnier
yeah
00:46:28
Paul Regnier
Right. Or could be like blogging or short stories or, you know, sub stack, you know, story, whatever, you know. yeah Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:38
Paul Regnier
I get it. Okay.
00:46:40
Lindsay Franklin
yeah oh you have ah absolutely you have
00:46:40
Paul Regnier
Now I'm wondering if I've written a million words. Maybe. I'm getting close.
00:46:45
Lindsay Franklin
yeah Yeah, you've probably published close to a million words at this point.
00:46:45
Paul Regnier
ah
00:46:49
Lindsay Franklin
So you have for sure written a million words because every draft counts separately too, right? If you rewrite a draft on something.
00:46:56
Paul Regnier
Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.
00:46:58
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:46:58
Paul Regnier
I didn't even think of that.
00:46:59
Lindsay Franklin
Yep.
00:47:00
Paul Regnier
That's true.
00:47:00
Lindsay Franklin
It's not even, it's not publishing a million. It's just writing a million. So it sounds intimidating, but if you've been, if you're have not published anything yet, but you have been in the industry for a few years and you've been drafting and practicing and doing that, you are probably at least halfway there
Creative Exploration in Writing
00:47:18
Lindsay Franklin
already. I'm going to guess.
00:47:19
Paul Regnier
And all my partially written stories that are just sitting on my hard drive and I haven't even... You know what's funny?
00:47:26
Lindsay Franklin
They count.
00:47:27
Paul Regnier
I'll tell you a quick story.
00:47:27
Lindsay Franklin
but
00:47:28
Paul Regnier
My book, Bard Tidings, which is you know a humorous fantasy book, that started out as a science fiction story.
00:47:36
Lindsay Franklin
Really?
00:47:37
Paul Regnier
And i yeah, I had this idea for, I called it like the accidental Iron Man because like this this guy, like um aliens from you know another world come and they one of them is in this like high tech AI suit. and then he gets killed while he's killing his enemy that's tracking him down. And then this guy finds the suit, right? And he's like, oh, what is this crazy suit? And somehow it gets on him.
00:48:05
Paul Regnier
and so he kind of becomes this accidental Iron Man and there's an AI in the suit that talks to him that becomes like his mentor, like, oh, here's how you use the suit and I'm going to train you. And you know there's danger and you have to help me and I'm going to take you to another planet, whatever.
00:48:20
Paul Regnier
So I had this whole thing and I and i had writ like i started like i wrote like 5,000 words.
00:48:21
Lindsay Franklin
Have
00:48:26
Paul Regnier
I'm like, okay, that's not working. And I tweaked some things and then I wrote like 10,000 words. I'm like, nope, still not working. um and then it was really frustrating. think I did a third version, like another 12,000 words. And it was frustrating me because I'm like, why is the story not working? It just doesn't feel right.
00:48:43
Paul Regnier
um And then so I was flipping through my old notes because whenever I have like a story idea, I just kind of flip through my old post-its or little scraps of paper. All right. And I found this one that said like, oh, there's a bard and he's the bard of a castle and he plays music for this tyrant king and he hates his job and he wants to get back out on the road and be a traveling musician. And, you know, maybe he's a spy and maybe he's best friends with the jester and they want to get out. So it's just like a little quick thing. And I thought, oh, wait a second.
00:49:16
Paul Regnier
What if I took that idea and then I had him find like this enchanted chain mail suit that had like an old warrior trapped within like enchanted.
00:49:28
Paul Regnier
that sort of gives him these extra powers of protection and tries to train him to be a better fighter because he's just a bard.
00:49:28
Lindsay Franklin
Love it.
00:49:34
Paul Regnier
He plays music. And then he could go on this journey with it. And then it totally worked. And then it was like, oh my gosh, and it was so easy to write from that point.
00:49:39
Lindsay Franklin
It just clicked.
00:49:42
Paul Regnier
But this is a window into my clunky discovery writer process.
00:49:48
Lindsay Franklin
It's not clunky at all, though.
00:49:48
Paul Regnier
that's
00:49:50
Lindsay Franklin
That's you finding.
00:49:50
Paul Regnier
Really? oh it's not for everybody.
00:49:51
Lindsay Franklin
No, not at all.
00:49:53
Paul Regnier
it's
00:49:53
Lindsay Franklin
Oh, my gosh. No, that it makes perfect sense to me. And I'm not really a discovery writer. I'm a puzzler. But this makes sense to me where you were feeling your way through what you thought the idea was supposed to be and then rethought it because of this other scrap of an idea that you had.
00:50:05
Paul Regnier
Yes.
00:50:09
Lindsay Franklin
And then suddenly it's all working and you just know that it's right.
00:50:10
Paul Regnier
Yep.
00:50:12
Paul Regnier
You just know.
00:50:13
Lindsay Franklin
That's that's how that's how that's supposed to go. It's perfect. I love it.
00:50:17
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, yeah. So that's part of like sometimes how my process works, which is, again, it's not for everybody, but it works for me because then I know i'm like, okay, now I'm on the right track.
00:50:29
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:50:31
Paul Regnier
And before I have the intuition where I'm not on. And that's part of, I think, also finding your niche is like, what really resonates with you as an author? And where where do you feel at home? Where do you feel like this is the type of story that really works? Like this feels natural. This is good. And I think once you find that, it'll feel the same way for readers. It's kind of like that thing, like when someone's a speaker or a musician, if you're up there and you're confident in and who you are and what you do,
00:51:02
Paul Regnier
people will be relaxed and they'll want to hear. right But if you're up there and you're real nervous and you're you know you're all tense and whatever, people feel that. And they're just like, oh, I'm not i'm uncomfortable. Like, oh, this isn't the same thing.
00:51:15
Paul Regnier
right But in ah in the writing way, it's just like your writing comes out smooth and natural and easy. And I think people pick up on that. So yeah, part of finding who you are in your niche.
00:51:29
Lindsay Franklin
A hundred percent.
00:51:30
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:51:30
Lindsay Franklin
So I know we're, yeah, I was going to say, well, I was going to say, i think we're, we're running long as we do.
00:51:31
Paul Regnier
Well, I think that's, oh go ahead. I'm sorry.
00:51:36
Paul Regnier
Yeah, I was just going to say that too.
00:51:39
Lindsay Franklin
we're running along as we do but i' am going to wrap up my piece of this with something that this is really funny because this episode idea was paul's idea however i have to ah so this is completely serendipitous but This whole subject of what we have been talking about today is exactly what I just taught about for three days at the Realm Makers Winter Retreat, which Paul did not know that.
00:52:04
Paul Regnier
Oh, perfect.
00:52:06
Lindsay Franklin
And so this feels serendipitous to me, and I was not going to necessarily plug this ah today, but...
00:52:06
Paul Regnier
I didn't.
00:52:12
Lindsay Franklin
you can actually access the online version of the retreat because they recorded me teaching um and they are going to be doing it online later.
00:52:23
Lindsay Franklin
They didn't do it simultaneously this year. They're doing it at the end of the month. So you can actually still register for that. And we're gonna be launching this episode.
00:52:30
Paul Regnier
Hmm.
00:52:32
Lindsay Franklin
Registration will still be open when we launch this episode. so um If you are resonating with what we're talking about today and you're thinking, okay, how do I do any of that?
00:52:43
Lindsay Franklin
How? How do I do that? You can go register and it's it's quite affordable. I want to say it's like maybe $170 or $180, something like that for the online version.
00:52:54
Lindsay Franklin
It's pretty affordable and it should be at least like nine hours of content. talking about this exact thing. I talk about voice. I talk about genre. I talk about um writing from the core of who you are and your identity and how that resonates with readers.
00:53:12
Lindsay Franklin
So I was not planning to plug because you know we don't really do that a ton on the podcast. We talk about it when we have book launches and say, hey, we just put out a new book. But other than that, we don't usually plug.
00:53:23
Lindsay Franklin
But because it is so exactly what we ended up talking about, up today i'm just throwing that out there guys so go to realmmakers.com if you're interested in that
00:53:24
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:53:34
Paul Regnier
And I was going to say, like it now it sounds like we planned it, but I promise we did.
00:53:38
Lindsay Franklin
it really didn't right
00:53:39
Paul Regnier
But that's really cool that that worked out. That's awesome. See, that's that intuition I was telling you about. But so, okay, if people... That's cool. like Honestly, I think that would be really valuable.
00:53:50
Paul Regnier
So if people... where do You could just go to Realm Maker's website to find that or...
00:53:54
Lindsay Franklin
I, because we didn't plan this, I don't even know exactly where to direct people. Let me pull it up as we're, as we're wrapping up right now, but I am pretty sure.
00:54:02
Paul Regnier
Well, I know if you if you type in Realm Makers on a Google search, it'll probably take you to their website, right?
00:54:03
Lindsay Franklin
hmm.
00:54:07
Paul Regnier
Is it just realmmakers.com?
00:54:08
Lindsay Franklin
Yes, it realmmakers.com. And then if you just go to events and go down to winter retreat and click on winter retreat, I am pretty sure that you can, oh, there's my face.
00:54:20
Lindsay Franklin
That's awkward. um Then you can just click sign up here or something. And um yes, and i don't see, oh my goodness, it is $169 the all of the sessions.
00:54:33
Lindsay Franklin
It's over nine hours of instruction.
00:54:33
Paul Regnier
What a deal.
00:54:35
Lindsay Franklin
What a deal. So, and then you can rewatch whenever you want. So ah there you go. That is the plug just because it ended up being exactly what we talked about today. so ah
00:54:46
Paul Regnier
By Grabthar's Hammer. What a savings. For all you Galaxy Quest fans out there. um Awesome. No, that's great. that's And yeah, again, if you want to dig deeper, I'm sure there's... I haven't heard it, but I'm sure there's some great stuff. Maybe I should register.
00:55:02
Paul Regnier
um Put my money where my mouth is there. But yeah, no, that's great. That's important. Because this is really... It's like the core of... It's sort of like the foundation of...
00:55:13
Paul Regnier
who you are as a writer, how you're going to market your book. and if you don't if you kind of And I think a lot of writers stumble in the beginning because they don't have all this stuff figured out.
00:55:17
Lindsay Franklin
Sure.
00:55:23
Paul Regnier
Not like you have to have it all figured out, but like once you start publishing books, you should at least have um like a a basic idea.
00:55:26
Lindsay Franklin
sure
00:55:31
Paul Regnier
Like, oh, you know what? I think, and that can change, right? you're not You're not locked down to anything. I mean, good grief, I went from science fiction to cozy mystery, right? So it's like, but again, it it happened because I discovered like, oh, you know what?
00:55:41
Lindsay Franklin
ah
00:55:46
Paul Regnier
i can I really enjoy writing this stuff too. Like I love mystery and one of my favorite shows was Psych.
00:55:51
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:55:53
Paul Regnier
And so I kind of wrote it like that. I wrote it like Psych episodes kind of, except with a dog that he could communicate telepathically with.
00:55:58
Lindsay Franklin
It's so fun.
00:56:02
Paul Regnier
That's the speculative fiction angle I took. But, you know, hey, if you have a dog that helps you solve crimes, how cool is that, right? He can sniff out clues.
00:56:10
Lindsay Franklin
That's awesome.
00:56:10
Paul Regnier
and Anyway, but I digress. But, yeah, it was just, if it it felt, again, it was really natural. It was something I was already into, and it's just like, this is what I want to write right now.
00:56:17
Lindsay Franklin
Mm-hmm.
00:56:21
Paul Regnier
And those actually did pretty good. So, yeah, I think following your intuition is kind of a good part of that. i feel too tied down. to something And if it doesn't work, you can always go back to like stuff that does work. you're not Again, you know it's all sort of this cool creative journey.
00:56:38
Paul Regnier
So yeah, I don't think you should feel too locked down.
00:56:39
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:56:42
Paul Regnier
But if you do find a book that hits, yeah, keep writing by all means. like If you have a breakout that's selling, copies are flying off the shelf, yeah, you may want to lean into that a little bit.
00:56:46
Lindsay Franklin
you
00:56:51
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:56:51
Paul Regnier
but
00:56:51
Lindsay Franklin
You may want to follow up and and do a couple more in that series. That's all we're saying. That's our business advice for the day.
00:56:57
Paul Regnier
Right. All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening and yeah, ah go check out the Realm Makers website for that winter retreat. Hear Lindsay dive deeper into what we're talking about. there's I'm sure there's some great content there.
00:57:13
Paul Regnier
So take a listen, take a look. Are there teaser stuff? Do they give you like a little teaser video or audio of of what's what kind of stuff is there or is it just kind of
00:57:24
Lindsay Franklin
That is a good question. There were videos there. I didn't a hit play because then y'all would probably hear it on um the recording here, but there are videos up there somewhere.
00:57:27
Paul Regnier
Okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So there's probably something. Yeah.
00:57:33
Lindsay Franklin
there's There's something up there somewhere, but it really is what we talked about today and we kind of did a good overview of it.
Resources for Writers: Realm Makers Winter Retreat
00:57:40
Lindsay Franklin
the The retreat content would be a really good way to dive into some of the tools just to go a little deeper into the theory of what we talked about today and then dive into some tools for helping you find that because You know, we can talk about the concept, but if I'm saying to you, right from the core of who you are and really discover, you know, all of that stuff, well, what if you don't know how to do that or, you know, you're not sure about that?
00:57:40
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:57:53
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:58:04
Paul Regnier
Yeah. Wait.
00:58:06
Lindsay Franklin
We we cover a lot of that. So it's it would be a very good companion. If this resonated for you and you thought, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I need, then the retreat is also for you.
00:58:16
Lindsay Franklin
So they probably do have teaser content, but yeah.
00:58:19
Paul Regnier
So real quick, now I'm interested, was was there at the retreat, were there like any sort of more brand new authors that this all seemed sort of like, oh, like what is this?
00:58:22
Lindsay Franklin
Yeah.
00:58:31
Paul Regnier
like i didn't even but Did it seem like a brand new concept to them? like Did you get any feedback like that?
00:58:37
Lindsay Franklin
We really, i think, kind of ran the whole gamut from people who are newer. A lot of people there are yet unpublished and trying to like find their first their first kind of ah breakout either into TradPub or are preparing to IndiePub for the first time.
00:58:53
Lindsay Franklin
And then there were also experienced published authors there.
00:58:53
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:58:57
Lindsay Franklin
So people were there for a lot of different reasons, too. And so it was just really cool. it was a really cool group. And we had a lot of breakouts across the board, which was awesome.
00:59:07
Lindsay Franklin
um So just people having that breakthrough moment for whatever reason they came for, you know, they had a breakthrough with it. So it's this kind of environment was really cool for diving deeper into stuff that is hard to teach on in a one hour workshop.
00:59:22
Lindsay Franklin
It's just not enough time to go into this stuff.
00:59:23
Paul Regnier
Right.
00:59:25
Lindsay Franklin
And we've We've almost ran for an hour here and it still feels like we just scratched the surface of it. Like we could probably talk about any of these things in depth for another hour each, right?
00:59:32
Paul Regnier
ah Yeah, totally.
00:59:38
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
00:59:38
Lindsay Franklin
And so having that that longer chunk of time to work with allowed us to go deeper. So I think it was really helpful for the the brand new authors who were there and then authors who are not newer but are still seeking that breakout and are kind of hitting a wall with the submission process or what have you.
00:59:56
Lindsay Franklin
And then there were definitely multi-published experienced authors there as well.
01:00:01
Paul Regnier
Right.
01:00:01
Lindsay Franklin
who you know are probably there for slightly different reasons, but still kind of got something from that. So the idea is like like finding those people you mentioned, the ones who just get you, those readers who, like, I vibe with this.
01:00:15
Lindsay Franklin
This is you know this author is my person.
01:00:16
Paul Regnier
right
01:00:19
Lindsay Franklin
thats It's about finding those readers.
01:00:19
Paul Regnier
who
01:00:21
Lindsay Franklin
And how do we do that?
01:00:22
Paul Regnier
yeah
01:00:22
Lindsay Franklin
How do we write the story that is going to find its way to those people?
01:00:26
Paul Regnier
Yeah.
01:00:27
Lindsay Franklin
yeah.
01:00:27
Paul Regnier
Right. and And a continual like path where you've figured out who you are, so you're going to continue to resonate with those people. Yeah. Guy, that's good.
01:00:36
Lindsay Franklin
Exactly.
01:00:36
Paul Regnier
And I think that sums up um like what we're trying to do with this podcast, too. Is it almost like I think we've learned a lot because we've been doing this for a while, we've learned a lot through like mistakes, right like or wasting time, or just trying to figure stuff out where we were kind of like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just going to try this or whatever.
01:00:50
Lindsay Franklin
Yep. Uh-huh.
01:00:58
Paul Regnier
um And I think now that we're in the point where we are, we're like, hey, like here's some information to help you avoid making the same stupid mistakes that we did, or make you get to where we are faster, because it took us years.
01:01:08
Lindsay Franklin
Yep. Mm-hmm.
01:01:11
Paul Regnier
you know So yeah, but that's good. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you everyone for listening. i hope this was helpful and we'll see on the next episode.