Episode 17: To Agent or Not to Agent

Transcript

Paul Regnier: Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Paul Regner.

Lindsay Franklin: And I'm Lindsay Franklin.

Paul Regnier: And today we are going to talk about agents. To agent or not to agent, that is the question. Hey, but before we get started, we actually have a little podcast milestone that we just passed. We have surpassed 1,000 listens, 1,000 downloads, streams, however you term it.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Oh, that's exciting. Yay! Confetti cannon.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, yeah. I actually, it actually happened a few weeks ago. I forgot to mention it on our last, but I think at this point we're around 1200, something, something around there.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh my gosh.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Pretty cool. Right? So we are a relatively young podcast, so that's kind of a cool, I mean, in the big scheme of podcasts out there, maybe that small potatoes, but I think it's pretty cool for, you know, for a podcast just beginning.

Lindsay Franklin: That's amazing.

Paul Regnier: So yes, celebrate the the victories along the way.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. It's big for us. I love that for us.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: Yay. Thank you, listeners.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: We love you.

Paul Regnier: Yes, thank you everyone for listening.

Lindsay Franklin: We appreciate you.

Paul Regnier: we we We sincerely hope you're enjoying it, you're learning something, and we just appreciate you coming with us on this podcast discussion. So speaking of which, today we are talking about agents. And I um i did have an agent at one time. i do not currently have an agent, but when I first was signed for my trilogy, my science fiction trilogy, I had an agent that helped me kind of negotiate that contract.

Paul Regnier: And I think number one, that's one thing I would point out is a pretty great thing to have an agent for when you do get that chance to have a contract. It's good to have someone you know negotiating that with you, make sure they can read through all the fine print and and figure out if you're getting a good deal and a good cut and all that good stuff, which is difficult to know unless you're like some sort of literary lawyer or something.

Paul Regnier: so Agents are pretty savvy with that kind of thing. So that was my experience. He really helped me with that. But then really it was kind of like a rush when I published all those books.

Paul Regnier: And then at the end I switched to indie. So at that point ah we parted ways and I haven't had an agent since. So my experience with having an agent is relatively minimal as opposed to Lindsay's, who's had an agent for many years now and can tell us that, Lindsay, what are the pros?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: What are the important aspects of having an agent? How has it benefited you? And and what should people look for um as far as like getting an agent, what their agent should do for them?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. I love this topic. This is great. And i have I have been with my agent for a very long time. I signed with her in December of 2010. So we are going on 16 years together.

Paul Regnier: 16 years.

Lindsay Franklin: It's a long, long time.

Paul Regnier: Wow. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So she's been part of my team from, you know,

Paul Regnier: She must be really good. Wow.

Lindsay Franklin: Early days. I love her.

Paul Regnier: Wow.

Lindsay Franklin: I love her to pieces. um And, you know, this is my agent who stuck by my side through six years of submissions where we didn't I didn't make this poor woman a dime for six years.

Lindsay Franklin: And she was still there still managing my career. and brainstorming with me, figuring out what's next, you know what are we gonna do? And um you know I used to call her my long suffering agent um because of this.

Lindsay Franklin: And she, I think at one point said, that sounds so so bad, it sounds so negative, like I'm happy to be here.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: So I changed it to my faithful agent.

Paul Regnier: There you go

Lindsay Franklin: ah Rachel. So I call her my faithful agent rather than long suffering.

Paul Regnier: go.

Lindsay Franklin: But um yes, so I've obviously had a very good experience with her. She's been a very valuable member of my team and will kind of talk about all of the ways that she's helped me specifically and some of the things that agents should be doing for you.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Um, and then we're, we're really going to talk about some things that might, might cue you that your, your agent may not be a good fit for you or might not be serving you as well as they could be.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: because I have certainly seen plenty of that. I happen to have a good experience, but that's not, that's not true for everybody in the publishing industry by a long shot. And there are some instances, a lot of instances where you may or may not even need an agent.

Lindsay Franklin: So we're going to talk about that too. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, ah I can start with some cautionary tales from ah especially one author friend I'm thinking of in particular that where he his experience with a couple agents made him basically say, oh, agents are kind of like literary gamblers.

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

Paul Regnier: They're out there thinking, hey, I'll take a gamble on this author. Oh, did did they sell a bunch on the first guy? Oh, no. OK, on to the next one. And then they'll just drop them and leave them in the dust. So I don't know, that may be the the atypical um type of literary agent. Again, I don't have vast experience, but I'm going on what my friend's experience was because I guess this happened more than once to him where it was kind of like that initial like, oh, you're great, you're amazing. and then once he didn't become a bestseller, was kind of like crickets. Like, are you still there? Like, I thought you were going to help me with my career here.

Paul Regnier: So what do you think with your um lengthy experience? is Are there warning signs that you can look out for so that doesn't happen? like what what do you Is there questions you could ask an agent when you're in sort of that negotiation phase?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. And I think that, I think that's a very common experience. So I hate to call it typical because then that almost makes it sound like like it's normal or to be expected and, you know, but it's it's not good.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's very common, but it's not good. So if that has happened to you, you are certainly not alone. um But you know, that's definitely not what we want. And gambling is, I mean, that's true.

Lindsay Franklin: That's legit. That's a good word for it. Agents are gambling. They are betting on us, the authors. Publishers are doing that too. They're they're betting on us and and hoping that Of course, every agent hopes that the ah each client they sign is going to be a massive hit, a bestseller, you know it is going to find success.

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: And of course, publishers want that for all of the the books they acquire as well. And of course, we know only a certain percentage of of authors or a certain percentage of books sort of reach those types of sales milestones.

Lindsay Franklin: So There can definitely be that vibe with agents where if you don't have that massive blow up success that they were hoping for, because of course they were hoping for that in the beginning, um then they have maybe moved on and they're back in their slush pile or they're devoting more time and attention to the authors in their their suite or on their list.

Lindsay Franklin: um who are maybe having more of that commercial success. So that can be really hard as as an author, you know, who is more mid-list or is having ah more of a slow takeoff in their career.

Lindsay Franklin: that That's really frustrating to feel like, you know, hey, I'm over here. I actually need the help. I need you to help boost me to kind of, you know, so that we can get something going here. And it's like the people who are already successful sometimes seem to get more of the attention. um Not seem to, they do.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm not going to lie.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: That happens. I mean, i I got to be honest with you guys.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Of course that happens. And so it's frustrating because then it just becomes this like self-fulfilling prophecy that if you don't ever give any any attention to the like strugglers or the ones who are not taking off the way you hope, then they're never going to take off.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And so, yeah, so that's a tough thing. um I would say when you are thinking about signing with an agent, um It would be good to look at who they represent.

Lindsay Franklin: How long have they been representing those authors? Do those authors ah mention them in acknowledgments of their books? Do they talk about their agents on social media? like Maybe do a little bit of like the stalker deep dive that you can do from the publicly available information about that agent to see what are their clients saying?

Lindsay Franklin: Is there a massive, something that's a little bit of a red flag for me is when an agent has like hundreds of authors on their list, because that signals to me that they, unless they have a bunch of like, um, associate agents or, you know, people working underneath and there's like another word for it, I can't think of right now, but like junior agents, maybe, um, helping them manage that, that list minions.

Paul Regnier: You're right.

Paul Regnier: Minions.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Their staff, their help. um Yeah. Unless they've they've kind of got that situation going on. I'm looking at that wondering how can you possibly be giving the time and attention, you know, very thoughtful career advice to that many clients all on your own.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That that's a red flag for me. yeah, so Maybe we should also talk about what an agent is in case there is, you know, some of our listeners out there might be thinking, I know that agents are a thing, but like, what does an agent even do?

Lindsay Franklin: What are they supposed to be doing?

Paul Regnier: Yes. What is an agent?

Lindsay Franklin: um What is an agent? So especially this is mostly applicable to traditional publishing. And we can maybe talk a little bit, um you know, later about if you're an indie person,

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: some instances where you might want to engage an agent, but typically this is, yeah.

Paul Regnier: I was actually going to throw that question to you because I was curious what you think. I know my answer for that, but i was as a jaded indie author, but you can tell me.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. I could, ah i could

Paul Regnier: But go ahead. what Sorry.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: Keep going.

Lindsay Franklin: no, yeah, that'll be, that'll be a fun question to unpack if

Paul Regnier: You were on a good track there. Yeah. ah

Lindsay Franklin: um Yes, so this is mostly happening over in the traditional side um because typically most publishers are not going to accept cold submissions, meaning that if you don't have a contact there, if they don't know who you are, most publishing houses are not just open to submissions like go ahead and send us your book if we have not specifically asked for it, right?

Paul Regnier: Right.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So you need an in you in to be able to even get your proposal or your query letter or whatever at that publisher, like to the acquisitions editor or like the intern who gets it before the acquisitions editor sees it.

Lindsay Franklin: You need an in most of the time.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, what is that what is that line you typically see when you're looking at publishers like, oh, I'd love to be a writer for this publisher? You'll see that we do not currently accept unsolicited manuscripts.

Paul Regnier: And that's what they mean.

Lindsay Franklin: Uh-huh.

Paul Regnier: like We don't accept them unless you have an agent that's like a middleman, right?

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, exactly. And an unsolicited manuscript is that cold outreach. They don't know who you are. You're just trying to send them something. A solicited ah manuscript or submission would be like if you met an acquisitions editor from that publishing house at a conference or something, and they said, we like this.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: You pitch to them. They like it. They request a proposal, or they request three chapters, or a full manuscript, whatever it is. That's a solicited submission. They've asked you for it. They want those materials. And so most publishers, because they they don't have the staff to sift through, ah ah like they would receive thousands upon thousands upon thousands, and they just do not have the staff to sift through.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. It's too much overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's too much.

Paul Regnier: So the, so the agent is almost like a filter for like, Hey, this person knows the literary world and they've selected the best of the best. Okay.

Paul Regnier: That's all we have time for.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, it serves as kind of a first gate and the agent is the first gatekeeper. that is vetting, we hope, um you know, if they're doing their job, they should be vetting and only signing authors who they feel with their industry experience and and their knowledge and everything are ready for publication, right?

Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: So that that is one function of an agent. um And it's beneficial to both the publisher and authors, because as authors, we're getting that open door to that publisher that doesn't ah accept unsolicited submissions. And it's beneficial for the publisher because they're kind of using the agents to filter their slush pile. Slush pile is that whole that whole wave of manuscripts that come in and it has to be sorted through and um you know weeded through and they'll pull the ones out that that appeal to them and and you know dive further into those. But they the publishers are using the agents to like drastically minimize the

Lindsay Franklin: number of manuscripts that end up in their slush piles.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, interesting. you know I just thought of a question um because like we said, like a lot of publishers won't, like unless you have an agent, you're probably you can't just send your stuff to them. They're going to be like, nope, sorry. um Now, what if you go to a writer's conference and there's like an acquisitions editor there and they're accepting pitches?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: and you go in and you say, hey, I have a pitch, but I don't have an agent. what is Is there a certain protocol?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: do they I'm sure they still listen, but are they kind of half interested at that point? How does that how does that work?

Lindsay Franklin: So this is actually very common and happens a lot where you, because that barrier is removed, that that gate, you know, has been opened because the acquisitions editor from the publishing house is there in front of you and you as the author have access to pitch directly to them.

Lindsay Franklin: And so that's one of those exceptions to how you can get your foot in the door or get your work in front of an acquisitions editor.

Paul Regnier: A loophole, people. A loophole.

Lindsay Franklin: Loophole. We love that loophole.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: um And so that's that's normal. That's not going to phase an acquisitions editor. um They're really just going to be dialed in and and listening to your pitch and looking at your materials if they want to see them um there in the meeting and telling you whether or not they want to see more.

Lindsay Franklin: So the process at that point looks exactly the same as if you have an agent Where it gets different to where it gets a little tricky is if it keeps going through the process there at the publisher and they decide they want to offer a contract, then the author is in an interesting position of having an offer on the table.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: but not having somebody there to look over that contract. So you, yes.

Paul Regnier: Right. That's tough.

Lindsay Franklin: And so I've seen authors who have, who are in that position, who have hired either an agent or like an IP lawyer or somebody who's going to, you know, be able to, to look over the legalese in the contract, um,

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Geez, how expensive is that?

Lindsay Franklin: but um Yeah, I don't even know, like hourly, how much, and I'm sure that's what they're doing is probably charging hourly to review that contract. So that would be kind of,

Paul Regnier: But I wonder if you did have a contract on the table, if you could like turn around and go like, hey, agents out there, i got a contract. Why don't you be my agent?

Lindsay Franklin: yep.

Paul Regnier: I just did half the work for you.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, and that absolutely does happen. um And it does, it's almost like the roles are reversed there where the publisher did the vetting in that in that ah case and that I have seen that happen.

Paul Regnier: Right, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So if you're an author in that position where you you have a publisher who's now courting you and you're going to go try to get an agent to help you navigate this, you then need to ask yourself, what role do you want an agent to have in your career at that point?

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Are you looking just for help negotiating this one contract? Or are you wanting to engage the type of agent that I have, um which is somebody who's going to help manage my whole career where she's, you know, like part of my team and like the visionary sense and looking forward and trying to help me help me manage my life as an author.

Lindsay Franklin: And so you're in a position of power at that point as the author, which is cool because there are not very many situations where authors get to be in the position of power in publishing, um least in TradPub.

Paul Regnier: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: So it's it's

Paul Regnier: Yes. We're usually just the peons that do what we're told.

Lindsay Franklin: it's true. And you know for the privilege of getting to tell stories, we're like, yep, let's go.

Paul Regnier: and

Lindsay Franklin: i will be the peon.

Paul Regnier: That's right. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's fine. ah um Yeah. So that can be that can be an interesting thing where you would then because you might suddenly have a ton of agents who are interested. and then you need to kind of like sift through and figure out what what am I really looking for and be real selective because you did do all the work.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: In that particular case, I would only engage with an agent long term at that point. if this is an agent who is really interested in managing my career and wants to like help with all of the future contracts and not just looking at the the legalese so in this contract, because I could just hire the lawyer to do that.

Paul Regnier: o

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: If we, you know, do the one-time fee and be done with it because

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: I did the other part of the the agent's job on that particular contract. So it's it's tricky. There's a lot of different kinds of situations that can come up, but you do see that a lot where those relationships are born out of a pitch that happened at a writer's conference.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: And I think that would give you some a little bit of clout, at least at that point, with like, you're not just coming to them empty-handed.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: It's just like, hey, I got a contract. you know I've got something solid here. you know And then it made me think, too, I know a lot of writers' conferences, there are agents there that you're pitching to as well, which I think would be um a far more receptive crowd because you're speaking face-to-face as opposed to like

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: I don't know, a literary agent's typical day where they're getting dozens, if not hundreds of proposals in their inbox and they're just kind of like flipping through like, oh my gosh, I've got so much to get through today.

Paul Regnier: But now you're face to face, it's a more relaxed environment and you've got their full attention. you know um So I would think it's a much better place if you're seeking an agent to actually snag one, right?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Absolutely. And it also gives you the opportunity to have a conversation, whereas an email is not that. If they they accept queries via email, that's great. But it's just you have your cover letter or, you know, whatever, and your your written materials, and that's it.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. yep

Lindsay Franklin: So having that face-to-face pitch meeting with an agent is so valuable because it gives you the opportunity to talk through that story, the agent can ask questions.

Lindsay Franklin: I see my boss at Enclave, Steve Lobby, is also um a literary agent. And I see this happen all the time in pitch meetings with Steve, where he he will like pull stuff out of the author he's talking to, where he wants to know more about ah why they went a certain direction of story or something is not sitting quite right with him about the story, they can kind of unpack that a little bit, maybe talk through options, maybe talk through things that, hey, would you be willing to revise XYZ and maybe resubmit that to me in ah in a few months?

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Or, hey, i this story idea is way too much like this other thing that's coming out next year from us, but you know I like your writing. What other ideas do you have? Can you pitch those to me right now?

Lindsay Franklin: like It often offers that opportunity to have a conversation and to not have it be that one and done email that might not hit. So it's ah that's one of the greatest benefits of writers' conferences if you are looking to become a traditional author and you

Paul Regnier: Thank you.

Lindsay Franklin: you know, want to seek an agent, seek a trad publisher, writers conferences are extremely valuable. And I know it's a big investment, but I still always recommend them because there's just, there are so many potential benefits to it.

Lindsay Franklin: So this is one.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. That's funny. You mentioned Steve Lobby since he runs Enclave. I wonder if he likes a book and he'll be like, hey, I'll be your publisher and your agent. I'll do both.

Lindsay Franklin: That happens sometimes too.

Paul Regnier: because Because he does he does offer really, he's got good insight on things. Do you want to hear a funny Steve Lobby story?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Always.

Paul Regnier: and when When I was doing the Space Drifters trilogy, he he was asking for names for each book because it was going to be Space Drifters and then like a little subtitle.

Paul Regnier: So he asked me what i what I had and I go, okay, the first one, Space Drifters, the Emerald Enigma, and the third one's going to be Space Drifters, the Ghost Ship, and then the second one is going to be Space Drifters, the greatest game show in the universe.

Paul Regnier: and he goes um He goes, okay, which of these things doesn't fit with the other two? and I'm like, yeah, I know.

Lindsay Franklin: One of these things is not like the other.

Paul Regnier: Right. It was totally that.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: and I'm like, yeah. He goes, you have three words in each one except for that middle one. He goes, he goes why don't we brainstorm? and We did. and he came up with earl I think we we both brainstormed back and forth.

Paul Regnier: and The one we landed on was the iron gauntlet. and I'm so glad he did that. and I look back now and I'm like, why didn't I see that? That's so obvious. like The ghost ship, the iron gauntlet, the emerald enigma.

Paul Regnier: Yes, of course it fits. But you know sometimes when you're in that haze of just trying to get it all finished, I don't know what happens.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: You sort of lose a little bit of that. But all that to say, like when you get someone that really knows like the industry and what they're doing and what things work, they can offer you that really good advice where you look back later and you're like, oh man, I'm so grateful.

Paul Regnier: And I would assume that's what a good agent can do. You probably have some stories like that about your agent, like things she's saved you from.

Lindsay Franklin: A hundred percent. And this is another another interesting nuance of agents that we should talk about. So ah agents come to agenting through a variety of different avenues. So back in the day when I first got into the publishing industry, um literary agents were kind of not new, but like a newer concept. This was not something that had been around for 50 years at that point. Like it was a slightly newer concept. And So many of the literary agents who were kind of practicing back then were former editors who had transitioned into the agency role or they were former um former authors. There were a few like that where they kind of you know wanted to get more onto the businessy side of things.

Lindsay Franklin: These days, that is not necessarily true. There are a lot of people who come to agenting just straight out the gate. And actually, my agent was was one of those. She was kind of like maybe that first generation of agents who just went straight from college or just like went right into the industry as an agent.

Lindsay Franklin: Like that was always her goal. So she's very business minded in the way that she approaches things. That's kind of, I actually don't know what her degree is in now that I think about it.

Lindsay Franklin: I feel like I used to know um if it was in like business or, you know, English or, you know, whatever. I don't know where it is, but an agent like Steve brings all of his years of editorial experience to the table as well as his business sense.

Lindsay Franklin: So he's a really good person for brainstorming through stuff like your titles and, and things like that.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: He brings an editorial mind to it.

Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And some agents are very like marketing and promotion and, um, you know, like they have that kind of background. And so they're going to be really helpful with those kinds of things and, and helping launch your career in that sense.

Lindsay Franklin: So agents can kind of come from or come from all different angles to this particular role. And you want to make sure that you are working with an agent who aligns with what you are looking for.

Lindsay Franklin: Because all of those those backgrounds are very valid, you know, they they are all perfectly acceptable for like, this is what my experience is in or my education is in. And that's, you know, why I'm an agent.

Lindsay Franklin: um That's completely fine. You don't have to have been an editor or a writer yourself or whatever to be an excellent agent. um But you as the author need to make sure that whoever you engage is able to give you the type of things you're hoping to receive from your agent in particular.

Lindsay Franklin: so um My agent gives like she is she's not a writer or an editor herself, but she is like the most informed reader you could ever find.

Lindsay Franklin: and So she will be able to identify for me things that are just not working or are not quite right for some reason. And she can't story problems and she can't always tell me why necessarily, but she can tell me

Paul Regnier: Oh, story problems. Oh. A

Lindsay Franklin: I was not feeling it at this point. And, you know,

Paul Regnier: little bit of ah a developmental edit, a little bit, kind of.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, yes.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And sometimes it's like it's like a developmental edit in the dark because she she knows she knows something is not like this is, I'm not feeling this, something is wrong here, but she can't always tell me exactly what it is.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And so then it's my job, which I'm fine with because I'm an author, I'm also an editor. And so this this happened. Okay, I'll i'll give you the specific story here with this one, which, ah and I'm sure I've told this story before, but it's with the Story Peddler when I was drafting that.

Lindsay Franklin: And I sent my agent the first completed draft of that story. And I just knew in my soul that this idea was going to be the one that we finally got signed.

Lindsay Franklin: You know, we'd been getting rejections for a few years at this point. And I just knew the story peddler is going to be the one that gets signed. This is my debut series, guys. And so I sent it to her.

Paul Regnier: And you were right.

Lindsay Franklin: I was excited. However, however, um my agent read that first draft. And again, this is my long suffering agent who has been by my side and patient, patient, faithful agent.

Paul Regnier: You're patient. You're patient.

Lindsay Franklin: um

Paul Regnier: it Faithful.

Lindsay Franklin: And she had loved everything that I had ever sent to her prior to this. And even my green stuff that now I look back and laugh that, you know, like that loved it.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm like, oh, it was so bad. And it was, but like she saw the potential in it. Right. So she had been a big fan of mine from the beginning.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: She's my first fan. um And so I sent this to her just so full of hope because I knew that this idea was addressing a lot of the

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: reasons for the rejections that we'd gotten up to that point, which was on my fantasy series that we had pitched previously, we had heard a lot of, we like Lindsay's writing.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: We really like her characters, but this idea, just the concept as a whole doesn't feel fresh. It doesn't feel unique. It doesn't feel um not to be too harsh, like interesting.

Lindsay Franklin: It's not interesting enough. And so,

Paul Regnier: there's no see There's nothing special here. What was that one guy?

Lindsay Franklin: oh, that guy.

Paul Regnier: that ah

Lindsay Franklin: Yep. but

Paul Regnier: we we we talked about a bad experience of Lindsay's at a at another conference.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, that guy. But I mean, we ah we had heard it.

Paul Regnier: The guy who shall not be named.

Lindsay Franklin: you know That was obviously the harshest version of it, but we had heard kind of that same note in different ways. And so I knew that this concept that just like, boom, exploded in my head with the story peddler, this was going to be an idea that was different and fresh and fun and unique enough that a publisher, somebody, somebody was going to take a chance on this.

Lindsay Franklin: So I sent her this manuscript so full of hope.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And she got back to me and said, i mean, essentially, she say this because she's too kind. She would never like say it this way, but she hated it And um yes, there were things about it she loved.

Paul Regnier: Oh.

Lindsay Franklin: But the story itself, she and she said to me, I just I got to this particular scene. And she told me what the scene was. And she said, I i closed the file and just did not feel the need to keep reading anymore.

Paul Regnier: Ouch.

Lindsay Franklin: I mean, yeah, from a DNF, from my agent, who's my biggest fan.

Paul Regnier: DNF. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Like this was, yeah, like it's very seriously critical feedback. And I knew as the architect of this particular story that the scene that she called out was the structural midpoint of the book.

Lindsay Franklin: And it was supposed to be this big context shifting midpoint of the story.

Paul Regnier: no

Lindsay Franklin: Like it ah it was a big structural moment too. And the fact that that was the particular scene that she went, no, I'm actually done.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Like, I don't need to open this anymore. Major problem. Huge, like, red flag. Like, this, she's right. This isn't working. If she didn't want to.

Paul Regnier: Because you want that to be an epic shift and maybe even something where people are like, no, right?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Is that was that what I'm picking up?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Something where it's, like, big twist and, like, wow.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And it, like, propels you into the second half of the book. And you're just, like, can't turn the pages fast enough.

Paul Regnier: ah Right, right, right, right.

Lindsay Franklin: That's what you want. You want that moment to be that.

Paul Regnier: Okay. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And instead, my agent, my faithful agent, who you know was my very first fan, said, nope, DNF, I'm done.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: you know One star on Goodreads. So um because of that, i well, I think I cried for two days. And then I was like, OK, let's get to work.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: Let's get to work and figure this out. um And I received very bad advice from um a colleague of mine at the time who said, Well, she just doesn't get you or she doesn't get it.

Lindsay Franklin: she does you know like she's not is she even really serving you? You've been pitching for all these years and she's not landed you a contract yet. You should probably just cut her loose anyway. That was terrible advice.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: like that Sometimes that is the right choice.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Sometimes you should cut your agent loose and just part ways and everything.

Paul Regnier: You could see why someone, I could, I could see why someone would say that though. They, they are probably trying to protect you.

Lindsay Franklin: Sure. Sure.

Paul Regnier: Like, Oh, I like, especially if they know your work and they like your work, like, Hey, they don't get it.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, exactly.

Paul Regnier: You know?

Lindsay Franklin: And trying to kind of like be encouraging. but But because my agent had been such a fan of my writing, even when I knew craft-wise I wasn't like there yet, she saw all of that in me.

Paul Regnier: Right, yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right. Yeah, it's not like she was negative all the way through, because then you would know, yeah, this person doesn't get me.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: So obviously you knew she does get me, but she realizes there's a big issue here.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, that's a good, that's good.

Lindsay Franklin: And she doesn't like this. She likes me.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: She doesn't like this. And because, and this specific way um that I had handled this idea.

Paul Regnier: This specific middle point, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And so, you know, she had earned her way into my inner circle. And so when somebody who has like very, ah very faithfully earned their way into your inner circle and gives you that kind of feedback, like even when it hurts so bad, you got to listen.

Lindsay Franklin: And so um so after a couple days of kind of just mourning, um i sat down and thought, okay, so what can I preserve from this story that is the thing that I felt like, yes, this is it.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: This is my breakout. This is my debut while dealing with all of her issues with it. And I had to just sit there and I i know i prayed a lot and just, you know, I asked myself and asked God, I'm not even lying, but, you know, and not that i I don't necessarily, you know, think that I sit there like God drops ideas into my head.

Lindsay Franklin: So that's not really what I'm saying, but I just needed to like, I needed to, the Lord just speaketh into into your brain.

Paul Regnier: That's how it works for me.

Paul Regnier: A light shines down and there's my next book. No, I'm just kidding.

Lindsay Franklin: Yay.

Paul Regnier: he doesn't He does inspire me though.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, absolutely. It's so, that's such a weird thing to talk about without like sounding like a crazy person, but I feel like other, other writers of faith, right?

Paul Regnier: I know. I hear voices in my head.

Lindsay Franklin: Other writers of faith understand what we're talking about, where you're just inviting God to like illuminate for you. Like, what, what am I doing here? And I, I remember feeling like,

Lindsay Franklin: you are telling the wrong story. Ask yourself, what does this story really want to be about? And I was trying to make it a Christian allegory. And what it really wanted to be about was art.

Lindsay Franklin: It wanted to be about story. It wanted to be about the power of art. And so once that unlocked in my brain, it was like,

Paul Regnier: h

Lindsay Franklin: Well, duh, of course, that's what this story wants to be about. So I redid the whole thing. I scrapped most of the supporting cast. I replotted everything, but it still had that same seed of the idea.

Lindsay Franklin: The first chapter is almost identical to the very first draft I ever wrote. like So there's something that has always been there from the beginning, but my agent was, yes, correct.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Paul Regnier: And the concept and the magic system probably remain the same. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That was the piece that carried over, but unlocking that like knowing what the story really wanted to be about. made the magic system expand so much more than what it ever was in the original version, which was just focused on the storytelling element.

Lindsay Franklin: When I realized this was about like the gift of art and, and what that is for us and how powerful and magical art is, it, it unlocked all different kinds of art that this could be about.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And that was so fun. So it just like expanded everything. So yes.

Paul Regnier: Kind of transcendent, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So because of that really painful note from my agent, that is why we have what did end up being my debut novel, The Story Peddler, in its current form that that people know.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And some people, not everybody, but some people love it. and And that is, you know, really down to her and that note that she gave me.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

Paul Regnier: And sometimes we get we we put down like, oh, the gatekeepers are stopping me from advancing. But sometimes the gatekeepers are there for a reason because you don't have the right ticket to get in the gate.

Paul Regnier: So that that was a good piece of advice.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

Paul Regnier: Have you ever heard of that story or that story? That writing craft book called Write Your Novel from the Middle by James Scott Bell?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, I think he deals with um a lot of that stuff. And you made me think of another thing too. And I don't know if i don't know if this is really related to your particular issue you had, but um K.M. Weiland wrote this article about um the second Captain America movie.

Paul Regnier: And she would always talk about that middle point where your character goes from ah reactive to active. And she even she had this picture of Captain America in the first half of the movie where he just kind of has like this, almost like this wounded look on his face like, what is all this stuff going around me?

Paul Regnier: i don't understand. why Why are these things going wrong? And then all of a sudden, halfway through, she shows this picture of him, and it's just this look of stern determination and like, all right, I know what's going on, and I'm going to do something about it.

Paul Regnier: And she said that was like where things really solidified for her what the midpoint should be, at least in the character arc.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: type of angle.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: But yeah, I don't know. Just that's sort of maybe unrelated, but it just made me think of that when you were talking about the middle.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, and that that midpoint of your story should be doing a lot of really important stuff like that.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: And that that should be a huge kind of transition moment for your character where they go from being more passive in the beginning and a lot of things are happening to them and they might be trying to respond to those things.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: But once you kind of cross that threshold into the second half of the book, they're starting to fight back and they're starting to like have greater and greater agency and really like

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: ah attacking, you know, the story problems and all of the forces that are coming against them. So it's, it's a huge, it's a huge moment in the story. And if anybody gets to the middle and goes, ah you know, then it's not, o it's not, um not the best.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So, you know, yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: My my agent was 100% right about that. That whole story needed to be rethought because it was just not hitting the way that I wanted it to. And it's because I was too in my head about my branding as a Christian fantasy author.

Lindsay Franklin: I was trying to put too much of my, um you know, religion, I don't want to say religious beliefs, but kind of, I was trying to like comment on that a little bit too much for this particular story.

Lindsay Franklin: That's not to say that that's always a bad thing to do. It just wasn't what the story was supposed to be about, you know?

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And so it just felt very forced and very not, it was just not what it was supposed to be. So her sense on that was a hundred percent correct.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And it was so valuable and literally changed the trajectory of my career.

Paul Regnier: It's interesting. It's almost like you were doing what you thought you should do rather than like maybe your natural art artistic instinct, I guess.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep, 100%.

Paul Regnier: So, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's because I had kind of been in the industry a little like too long at that point, so to speak, because I'd been absorbing all of the stuff that we hear, you know, that's all true, you know, like about branding and and finding your audience and staying in your lane and, you know, all of those things.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And so in my mind, i was i am a Christian and I am a fantasy author. And so I was supposed to be a Christian fantasy author.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: And so I need to have some Jesus in like my, right, whatever that means.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, whatever that means.

Lindsay Franklin: And in my head at the time, all these years ago, it was like, oh, I've got to have like my Jesus character in my, my Jesus lion, which I say, right?

Paul Regnier: Where's Aslan? I don't see Aslan anywhere in this story.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. The Jesus lion.

Paul Regnier: Rejected.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh my gosh. Yep. And that's what that was. That scene that she went, oh, it was, it was a Jesus lion scene, not literally a lion. It was like a man, but it was kind of like the the big moment with him and kind of this big reveal and just, no, it's not, it's not working.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So, yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. And that's when it's anytime, whether it's um your your faith or maybe some sort of ideology that you have that you're trying to integrate in your story, you never want it to be forced or heavy handed, all that stuff.

Lindsay Franklin: No, no.

Paul Regnier: Even if you're reading or watching something and you agree with what the person's trying to say if it's in your face you're like oh my gosh get me out of here because you're going there for the story now if it's subtly woven in there story weaver um if it's we' weaved in very subtly and naturally naturally that's a big part of it then it can be like super powerful it can be like wow I learned so much.

Lindsay Franklin: Uh-huh.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: And and and that could be with like the themes that you're going for too. But but yeah, you you never want to be too heavy handed. But that's the problem though. I think some people think like, oh, I've got a message and I really have to make sure it's like you know front and center.

Paul Regnier: But it's like, no, like it's too much. like Unless you're like ah a master like C.S.

Lindsay Franklin: Too much.

Paul Regnier: Lewis or something where it's like it's front and center, but it's also subtle in a way. I don't know how he does it. But um anyways, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, for sure.

Paul Regnier: But that's ah that's another topic.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: um So I was going to ask you, it's interesting because I was thinking, like you kind of mentioned a few things that your agent is helping you with. um And I know, like for me, my initial thought with agents was like, oh, they help you with that contract.

Paul Regnier: like That's very important for someone to know how to avoid pitfalls, and they know the the verbiage in there.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: and um But beyond that, because I had like um an author friend who had dealt with a couple agents. And like what he told me is, like oh, they were really glowing about my writing at first.

Paul Regnier: And they told me, oh, you're so great. You're the next Stephen King, blah, blah, blah. And they they really built me up. He goes, and then when I published and I didn't sell like you know tens of thousands of copies, like they just stopped contacting me.

Paul Regnier: And it was just like a dried up.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: And that goes back to that gambling kind of thing. Like, oh, this one, this slot machine didn't hit.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: I'm gonna move on to the next one or whatever.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: I

Paul Regnier: i guess the question is, how do you know how can you sift through that? i'm Because I'm sure if an agent is is talking to you, they they do like your work. um But maybe number one, beware of the overpraise. And number two, is there something are there specific things you could talk about during that sort of those initial contact moments before you, I guess, agree like, oh yeah, you're gonna be my agent, let's make it official.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: Are there certain things you can discuss, say like, oh, what is that going to entail? Like, what should I expect you know as I'm working with you?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, I think that is a really good question to ask, you know, kind of how how that particular agent foresees this relationship working and what their normal kind of flow is with their clients, because some agents really are very...

Lindsay Franklin: handholdy And I don't mean that in a negative way or like a condescending way at all, just meaning they really come alongside their authors. And that's how they like to manage their list is they come alongside, they're very collaborative, um and they really want to work with their authors um on career management and all of those businessy things um and being their author's advocate. other agents really are simply there about the contracts and that is all they're interested in. That's all that they care about. And for some authors and what they're looking for, that's what they want. So it's really just about having that conversation and and figuring out what you're looking for. And if that particular agent is a good fit for you with their background, how they interact with their authors, you know, how hands on they are or are not, um, all of those questions can be asked in advance. Um,

Lindsay Franklin: But if you find yourself in that situation, so you've signed with them, there's been a contract, maybe it didn't explode as big as everybody hoped. And so now you're in that situation of feeling like your agent has kind of ah dropped you, not officially, but in the sense of their interest has really dropped in you.

Lindsay Franklin: How do you handle that? And so,

Paul Regnier: Friend zone. Is there a friend zone for agents and authors?

Lindsay Franklin: ah yes, i think that's what it is. It is the friend zone. Oh, the the sparkle has worn off. The butterflies are gone. It's just, yeah, ah the honeymoon is over.

Paul Regnier: The honeymoon is over.

Lindsay Franklin: um So the first thing that I would do is I would ask for a meeting. I would ask for a meeting with my agent and say, you know, can we just chat? Can we talk about what's next? And you know, strategy, planning for what are we going to do now? You know, this didn't go the way that we wanted it to.

Lindsay Franklin: How are we going to pivot?

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: How are we going to adjust? Should I be working on what's next? um And do you have ideas about things that really might hit and things the publishers out there are looking for? um Or do we focus on promoting the stuff that's already released?

Lindsay Franklin: Like what what is the next step? What is the strategy? And if the agent's response is kind of ah I don't know, or yeah what do you want to do You know, like that sort of thing. Then there you go. That's kind of your answer that like, okay, they they have like Elvis has left the building, they don't care anymore.

Paul Regnier: right

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Right.

Lindsay Franklin: And, you know, unfortunately, and and so it might be time to part ways at that point.

Paul Regnier: right

Lindsay Franklin: But if they, it it could be a number of things where they maybe have just gotten really busy. They, they may have had a client who did blow up or who got a movie deal suddenly or something big happened.

Lindsay Franklin: And they've been in the middle of kind of managing that. So it's not been like an intentional ghosting, or maybe they've been waiting for like giving you space and waiting for you to come to them and say, okay, here's my new idea.

Lindsay Franklin: Like you know, some miscommunications can happen too. So I would definitely, if you liked the agent enough initially to sign with them and you still want to have an agent in your career, it still makes sense for whatever your goals are moving forward, then I would definitely ask for that meeting first and see how they respond to that.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's going to tell a lot about where they're at. If they just bring nothing to the table in the meeting, then it's it's time probably to ah to part ways.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: And that's okay to do.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. And do you think like the the main, once once you once you connect with an agent, let's see you get an agent, do you think like one of the main um things that they do in that position is pitch your next book to, because it might not be pitching to the same publisher. Maybe maybe you did your first book or your first series with the publisher, and then you have a new book,

Paul Regnier: And your agent says like, oh, this new one will be perfect for this other publisher. I know let's move to them or or whatever it is. Um, would you say that's one of the key most important things that you want out of your agent, just that they see your next work and then they go pitch that it's kind of like your, your continual pitch PR person, I guess.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, they they should always be sort of acting as your, i was going to say your middleman, but like your representative. That's it.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That's literally what they are. They are your representative to publishers. So something you want to be aware of when you're pitching and also as you move through your career, because this can change over time, is you want to have an agent who has relationships with the publishers you want to pitch to.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay, so

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: You want to make sure like if you are

Paul Regnier: That's a good question to ask up front.

Lindsay Franklin: it Yes.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Yeah. If you, you know, even if it's some big, massive New York agent who is interested in your work, but primarily what they represent and where their relationships are with publishing houses is like on the nonfiction side, you know, like maybe that's most of what they represent, most of their client list or whatever.

Lindsay Franklin: And they just happen to really like your, you know, like weird fantasy novel or something, but they don't know a single editor at any of the, my cats.

Paul Regnier: Are you talking specifically about me, my weird fantasy novels?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, specifically your weird fantasy.

Paul Regnier: Is there a cat interruption? What is happening here?

Lindsay Franklin: My two cats are fighting. I heard a hiss, which is not usual for my cats, but oh my gosh.

Paul Regnier: Oh.

Paul Regnier: Your orange one was in the background earlier.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh, and now she's...

Paul Regnier: I think it was ah it was attacking your wombat stuffed animal or something.

Lindsay Franklin: He's...

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, he was doing that. Now he's being crazy and trying to attack his sister who is on my chair and has been this whole time. He's gotten very territorial and she is not having it.

Lindsay Franklin: And she could bite this cat in half, I'm telling you. So he's he he that's lost his mind.

Paul Regnier: Catfight live on the podcast. ah

Lindsay Franklin: Okay, Oliver, get out.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: Yikes, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So let me see if I can twist my chair and like break the eye contact here because this is scary. Anyway, so um the you want to make sure that your your publisher has contacts and relationships with the types of um or your agent has relationships with the types of publishers you're looking to pitch to.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Otherwise, it's essentially a cold submission and maybe having agency letterhead, so to speak, might kind of get a foot in the door. But if that publisher doesn't have previous experience with that agent or agency, they don't have any idea who this agent is, it's not actually going to be that valuable of a contact.

Lindsay Franklin: You you want an agent who has worked with these publishers before or has worked at an agency that's worked at these publishers before.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Because sometimes you have a new agent coming in and they personally might not have worked with that publisher, but like the owner of that agency has worked with the publisher so that the publisher knows the agency name.

Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm. Right.

Lindsay Franklin: That's really what you need because there's going to be like trust built there.

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: um And so and that's really what it is. They are looking to reduce My third cat just walked in. Like, guys, it's getting so dicey here.

Paul Regnier: nice I see. i see. One's behind your chair, the other one is stalking from behind. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Like, I have the the two gray and white ones are here. And then there's like the little orange menace is over. This is insane.

Paul Regnier: Oh, there's three.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm so sorry.

Paul Regnier: You guys, what are

Lindsay Franklin: There's three. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Crazy cat lady, look out.

Lindsay Franklin: There's three. Yeah. Cat rancher, as my ah my best friend always says.

Paul Regnier: ah yeah Right.

Lindsay Franklin: But yeah, it's the orange guy is the one causing the problems. This is this is crazy. Anyway, ah um hopefully no no no blood will be shed. um Yes. so um okay, train of thought.

Lindsay Franklin: We're going to get it back.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: It's going to be fine. but

Paul Regnier: Where were we?

Lindsay Franklin: Where were we?

Paul Regnier: No, I guess, oh yeah, I was just saying like, you know, the the things that an agent does, what are those what are those important things to look for?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Obviously, one is pitching your next book to the right publisher.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: and And like a cool thing that yours is doing, I don't know how typical it is, but yours almost has that developmental edit or at least that first line of feedback for you.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: he

Paul Regnier: which is which I guess you've seen has been really valuable because it sounds like she really gets like what makes your stories work and what hinders them.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. And she she knows it like in the context of my career as well. You know, she knows.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So I felt I could trust her because she knows um she's a Christian as well. So her saying to me what's going on with this Jesus character in your story is not her being like, I don't like your faith.

Paul Regnier: were i

Lindsay Franklin: You know what I mean?

Paul Regnier: Right, right.

Lindsay Franklin: That's her. She knows me and she knows like me within the context of the publishing industry and our little corner of it. And so I could take that advice really to heart and know what was meant by it.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And, you know, so it was, it was such a good, good nugget of wisdom that she was sharing with me.

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So yeah, that that is something that she does. And she, my agent in particular, doesn't necessarily read subsequent books in the manu or in the series before they go to my editor, if that makes sense.

Lindsay Franklin: So once we're signed for a series, she will have read book one before we start pitching it, but I don't send book two to her or book three.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: for like feedback on that. So that at that point, it's just between me and my publisher and my editor because she's kind of done her job in getting the, my agent has done her job in getting the series placed.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: And then she's just sort of trusts me and the the editorial team to you know make sure that the series kind of continues on the way that it should. And so, yeah.

Paul Regnier: And it's going to go through several rounds of editing at that point anyway.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: So it's kind of like she doesn't want to do an extra job that's already being done.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: That makes sense.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

Paul Regnier: Now, what about on like the promotion marketing kind of side of things? Is that typical for an agent to jump in and help you with? Or is, I guess it kind of depends on if an agent is kind of knowledgeable in that arena.

Paul Regnier: How does, like how, what should people, like should people even expect that at all?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Or, you know, what is your experience?

Lindsay Franklin: I think that's really going to depend on the agent and what kind of background they bring.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: They, they should have ideas about kind of an agent should always have their finger on the pulse of what's happening in the market. Now what's happening in the industry now they should be like one of your most up-to-date resources on that in all regards.

Lindsay Franklin: So yes, with marketing, they should be able to look at a publisher's marketing plan and know if this is, you know, decent or not. If this is, you know, if we're we're kind of getting the stuff that one might expect from a publisher of whatever size, you know, we're working with.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: Right. Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So those are kind of the ways that um every agent really should be able to help their clients with the marketing side, even if they don't come from a marketing background. um If your agent has a marketing background, then i would expect a lot more in that particular area, you know, from them that they're going to provide a lot more guidance.

Lindsay Franklin: um The same way I would expect, you know, like a Steve Lobby, who was an editor for many years at a publisher, I'm going expect really good editorial advice from him if I'm his client, you know?

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: um So whatever their background is, you're going to you know, expect they're going to be kind of a superstar in that area. um But even even if your particular agent doesn't specialize in that.

Lindsay Franklin: Some agencies like the agency where I'm repped, they have all client webinars that they will put on about specific topics. And they are often focused on marketing things or like how to manage your newsletter or, you know, ideas for all different kinds of things.

Lindsay Franklin: And sometimes it's about managing legal things and just all things of interest to professional authors. And they will put all of the agents heads together. to craft these webinars.

Lindsay Franklin: And it's so valuable because you have all of these different ah areas of expertise that each agent is going to bring to that conversation.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And they'll all present, they'll all talk about it. And every client who's repped at the agency gets to attend that if they want to. so um that kind of education is really, really valuable.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And i don't know i don't know how common that is. Like I said, I've been in this agency for 16 years.

Paul Regnier: Right, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: This is my experience, or 15 and a half. This is my experience personally, and I'm sure they're not the only ones who ah who do this. But that is another way that an agent or agency can really be helping their clients, pouring into their clients, and really helping ah in all aspects, including marketing and promotion, because they want you to be living your best life in your career and selling as well as possible.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: It benefits everybody um if we're if we're doing as well as we possibly can.

Paul Regnier: sure

Lindsay Franklin: And so um I feel like a very wise person agent or agency takes that view of it, that if we invest in our authors, if we pour in to our, you know, stable or suite or list, however you want to phrase it, um it's going to benefit them.

Lindsay Franklin: It's going to benefit the publishers. It's going to benefit the agents because they get their 15% cut of whatever you, whatever you're selling.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So yay.

Paul Regnier: All right. Now I'm going to give you the hard question of the podcast in the, let's switch over from traditional to the indie author realm where no agents are needed.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: yeah Okay, so we know Paul's position on this now.

Paul Regnier: ah That's right.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: I gave it away right away. Well, so I'm thinking, so like we just talked about all the all the ways the agent can help you.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: And one of the main ways is like pitching your book to all these different publishers. If you're indie publishing, you don't need to do that. So that's one big thing that's like wiped off the needed list, right?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: So you're basically you're publishing your stuff, you put it on Amazon or maybe you're publishing wide, whatever you're doing. um So you don't need that step. You're doing it yourself.

Paul Regnier: On the marketing and promotion side of things, You're kind of already doing that too. I mean, hopefully you are as an indie author, you should be out there hustling and taking classes and learning everything that you can to run good ads or good promotions or whatever it is, whatever you see that's working well for you, author newsletters, you know what have you.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: You should be doing all that stuff. And there's so many resources online where you can learn that stuff if you if you don't know, if you're new to it. you can You can learn rather quickly, actually, just because of the wealth of resources that are online.

Paul Regnier: So you don't necessarily need that help either. Let's see what's left. I can't i can't really.

Lindsay Franklin: you

Paul Regnier: Oh, oh. And then finally, the final nail in the coffin, you don't have to give away 15% of all your earnings. Guess what?

Lindsay Franklin: It's true.

Paul Regnier: You can keep it.

Lindsay Franklin: It's true.

Paul Regnier: Because you don't have that agent. All right. Tell me why I'm wrong, Lindsay.

Lindsay Franklin: You know, i just, I don't think you are. That's the thing. Okay. So yeah I, I know.

Paul Regnier: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, no, I agree with you. If you are an indie author there,

Paul Regnier: Advantage Paul.

Lindsay Franklin: ah yup We should have a big like whiteboard that just has a running tally of just like all of our epic battles. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: indie trad, um, you know, plotter pantser, all the things, uh, no. So I, I agree with you. There are far, far fewer benefits, um, for an indie author, you know, to having an agent, it just, it it doesn't make sense in most situations.

Lindsay Franklin: So maybe we'll just talk about the few, few situations where as an indie, you might find yourself in need of representation. um

Paul Regnier: Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: And so one of those situations would be if you have your indie books out there and then you have um an audio production company. I've seen this multiple times with my indie friends where they have not made an audio book for their books previously.

Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: an audiobook production company specifically will see, you know, it kind of doing its thing in the indie space, decide that they would like to produce an audiobook of this um

Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: of this indie title, and they might reach out to you. So that's one of those very rare... instances where somebody does that cold outreach because we did a couple episodes ago, like all these author beware things.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And one of my huge red flags was if they're contacting you, that it's a scam.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Paul Regnier: all Right.

Lindsay Franklin: That is not true in this case. If it's ah a legitimate audiobook a publisher, and you do have to be careful because I'm sure there are scammers out there that are, you know, who are like posing as legit companies.

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: But There are audio only companies who hunt around for, um you know, these like well selling titles that don't have an audio book yet. And so they might offer to produce that for you, which would mean you're kind of giving sub rights to them.

Lindsay Franklin: And um you might want an agent to help you navigate that contract because you'd be signing a contract with them. um and yeah.

Paul Regnier: Do you happen to know offhand what the percentage they typically ask for? Like what kind of cut of the profits?

Lindsay Franklin: like for the for the audiobook uh oh gosh i actually don't know i know sub rights yeah no i i'm actually like trying to think too like i i feel like a lot of sub rights stuff there will sometimes be like a 50 um you know split or i don't want to like say that though and then be super wrong about it so i'm not 100 um on that but see this is why we maybe need an agent to tell us if something, because for me as a trad author, if I open up a contract and it's like, oh, 15%, I might be like, okay, you know, thinking that's normal.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: I wasn't trying to sup you. I'm actually curious.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: um Because if you're talking about like a traditional book contract, that is normal for you with a traditional contract, you might see anywhere from like, I've seen, I've seen

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: 8%, which is actually really bad. Don't sign that contract. But, you know, anywhere from 10 up to maybe even like 20 or 25 in ebook format. I've all of those percentages sound very normal to me.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So if 50% is the standard for sub rights and you're like, oh, 15, that's fine. You know, you could be cutting yourself out of a lot of profits there. So this is where an agent is very handy.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: um

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: But yeah.

Paul Regnier: It would be a hard sell for me only because i think I mentioned I'm doing Amazon's virtual voice.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm

Paul Regnier: Like they let me in on the beta of that.

Lindsay Franklin: hmm.

Paul Regnier: So it's like I can turn, I can create audio books for all of my books for free. It's, it's a AI voice, which not everyone likes, but I offer it for like seven bucks.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: So, you know, I try to like,

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: but So in other words, and i would assume as soon as the beta is done, they're probably going to offer that to, you know, all the, at least the people that are kind of all in on Amazon, like Amazon exclusive authors.

Paul Regnier: I would assume, I could be wrong.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: I don't know the next phase, but I do know also some of the competing companies like 11 Labs and stuff like that, that do the AI audio books, they're now starting to offer like cast podcasts.

Paul Regnier: Like, so you have differing voices that you can do.

Lindsay Franklin: Wow.

Paul Regnier: So if you have a male character, you can have the male voice. And then when the female character comes in, now you've got the female dialogue responding.

Lindsay Franklin: Wow. That's crazy.

Paul Regnier: So it almost seems like a cast, you know, a sort of audio book, which would be awesome.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. That's wild.

Paul Regnier: I hope Amazon does that soon. That'd be so cool.

Lindsay Franklin: That is wild.

Paul Regnier: um But so that would be a tough sell for me personally.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.

Paul Regnier: But yeah, maybe that would work for some other indie authors. I don't know.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. And it kind of depends on what what's being offered. you know What is the product that's being offered? And you know does it make sense for you? And yeah, as technology evolves, um you know some of these things may become sort of relics of the past.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: We'll see you know what happens with all of this.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: It just kind of kind of depends on what what happens in the future. But it's definitely been a thing in the past. And so has I was going to say a movie deal, but I'm not even going to get into that because Yes, of course, if you get a movie deal, movie offer or something, please engage an agent or a a lawyer, somebody to help you with that.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: but so And that's one of those like one in 10 million kind of ah things anyway.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: But um something that is more common and still still not super common, but more common than the movie deal is when an indie has been out there killing it, sometimes a traditional publisher is becomes interested in even the series that is already indie published and they want to sign it and repackage it and publish it.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: um or they want to partner with that author on a different series moving forward because they've seen the sales potential there.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And so that might be a moment where an indie author is like at a crossroads and and they're becoming a hybrid author at that point. And you, you might want to engage.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: In fact, I would recommend engaging an agent at that point, unless you have contract experience yourself and you're, you're real savvy with, um, you know, what you should be being offered in a, in a publishing contract.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Because again, this is one of those rare instances where the author is in a position of power because that publisher came to you because you have something going on with your sales.

Paul Regnier: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: And so if they're coming to you, you are in the position of power, which is not to say that the publisher wouldn't look at, you know, some counter offer and be like, yeah, no, thanks.

Paul Regnier: ah Right.

Lindsay Franklin: we're We're moving on. There's some other big indie author we want to talk to over there. They might do that, but you have a lot of negotiating ah weight at that point, and you will want somebody to be your representative, I think.

Lindsay Franklin: You would want someone to be your representative to help you navigate that because it's tricky and you want to make sure that you take full advantage without blowing the deal up accidentally um and and making sure that any kind of requests or counter offers or anything like that are reasonable because that is something that your agent should be doing for you, which I don't think i've I've said necessarily explicitly.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Right.

Lindsay Franklin: We've talked about contracts, but that's something an agent should be doing with Your contract is looking at the terms and not only making sure that you're protected from anything that is not, we're not even talking predatory necessarily, but just not advantageous for you as the author.

Lindsay Franklin: Because a publisher can be very legit and even, you know, ah fairly ethical um in their practices, but their contracts, a lot of the times, the kind of boilerplate version of it is advantageous to them.

Lindsay Franklin: as the publisher.

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: And so your agent is there to kind of hunt for those things and make sure that

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: you are being taken care of, you're not being taken advantage of, and you're getting what is industry standard. And maybe they're they're willing to awkwardly, you know, be the one asking for more.

Lindsay Franklin: I hate that for myself, where I i cannot be like, oh, can I please have more money? Or can I please have more? i No, I'm never going to ask that question.

Paul Regnier: Show me the money.

Lindsay Franklin: You're right. ill I just, I like get hives just thinking about that. But my agent does that for me. She's like, no, that's not enough money. Or no, we want a bigger, percentage or whatever, as she gets to be that person for me.

Lindsay Franklin: And um I get to just let her handle those negotiations. And she has negotiated either better terms, more money, or both for me on every single contract I've signed with her.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, that's great.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: and And you've hit on the thing that would make me want an agent. if i If some publisher came and they said, hey, we like this book or we like your writing, can you write this book, this new series for us, whatever it is, and here's our contract, my immediate thought would be like, okay, i need an agent real quick here because i i'm going to like I'm going to get the bad end of this deal because I don't know what I'm doing.

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Right, because we just don't know. we don't know.

Paul Regnier: I'll read through the fine print and I'll be like, oh, that sounds pretty good.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Regnier: Where do I sign?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, sure. Hey, they're going to make a cool like special edition hardcover of my book. Yeah, where do I sign?

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: So we want that person to be advocating for us and protecting us and making sure that we are, you know, getting the best deal that we possibly can. And there's going to be limits to that.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: You know, it's not like publishers are endless wells of, you know, money where they're just and they're just selfishly withholding all of that from us. But it's just good business that they're going to kind of come in low most of the time.

Lindsay Franklin: And um that's another thing. If your agent is very market aware and savvy the way that they should be, they're going to know which publishers are being withholding and which ones are not because, you know, not every, not all publishers are the same.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, right.

Lindsay Franklin: And so the the capacity to negotiate, and this can even be...

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: true on different imprints at the same publisher. So without being too specific about this, this is on the other side of my career with like my nonfiction side, but I've had works with a particular large publisher under one imprint and then some other works under a different imprint.

Paul Regnier: Oh.

Lindsay Franklin: And this other imprint over here, um they it's a different type of ah book that they're producing. It's like I don't know how to explain this exactly.

Lindsay Franklin: It's where they're taking IP that the publisher owns. Okay. so they own the copyright on this stuff, um, and sort of repurposing and repackaging it. So it's almost like a, uh, it's almost like a content writing slash editing job.

Lindsay Franklin: If I'm ever doing a book over there, like with, with them under that imprint, it's different from writing my own stuff. Um, And so that particular imprint has a very different, like the contracts are a lot more narrow, I want to say.

Lindsay Franklin: And the the wiggle room is a lot less over there because that it's just a different type of thing that they're producing there.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: And so, um and my agent, can She knows this and she immediately can say, oh, yeah, this is this is different from what we'd be looking at on with this other imprint or with this other publisher over here. And so they're not trying to like lowball us. This is like this is a real offer and, you know, whatever. So that that's very valuable um because.

Lindsay Franklin: That's the kind of like back end stuff that you don't have any idea about necessarily on the author side because we don't come into contact with that that sort of thing very often. So um that is that's very helpful to to have an agent who is...

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: savvy and knows when a contract has the room to to wiggle and to ask for more and when you know this is kind of as high as we're going to go. But maybe we ask for this other thing over here that isn't necessarily more money, but maybe it's this other thing that is better terms for whatever reason.

Lindsay Franklin: So that's why I say it's always been either more money, better terms, and oftentimes both that she's negotiated for me because it depends on who we're who we're talking to for that particular contract.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Awesome. No, that's great. I think we've covered quite a bit here and we're we're running a little long as I look up at the clock.

Lindsay Franklin: Yay.

Paul Regnier: um But no, all all good info and and all good stuff for authors to be aware of, especially if you know you're in the midst of trying to find an agent right now. I will mention one website because i um i think you let me know last time that it's still around and it's one I used back in the day.

Paul Regnier: QueryTracker, is it.net or.com? I think it it might be.net, I forget.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh, goodness.

Paul Regnier: um

Lindsay Franklin: Possibly. If you Google query tracker, it should come up.

Paul Regnier: But I remember... Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Wait, let's do ah I'll do a live search here.

Lindsay Franklin: he ah

Paul Regnier: But this is where you there's agents and they tell you what they're looking for. It's.NET, query tracker.net.

Lindsay Franklin: old school.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, but it's where you know you can find a listings of agents and they they let you know, this is what I'm looking for. And if you're gonna submit a proposal to me, this is what I want in the proposal.

Paul Regnier: And sometimes it differs from agent to agent. And then you can see what types of books they represent, what genres they're interested in. So wealth of information.

Paul Regnier: But yeah, I just wanted to mention that real quick before we head out.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: um Did we miss anything else? Is there anything else that?

Lindsay Franklin: Oh my goodness. You know, we could do a whole sub episode on like, when might it be time to part ways with my agent and, you know, like stuff like that. Like, cause there's, there's definitely a lot that we didn't dive into some of those kinds of situations, but I feel like we have covered kind of the, the meat of the the matter um when it comes to, to agent or not to agent.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That is the question. Yes.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: And we've given you the answer.

Paul Regnier: Awesome.

Lindsay Franklin: yes

Paul Regnier: That's right. All answers here. Well, thank you everyone for listening. i Hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you next time.

Lindsay Franklin: Bye.