Transcript
Speaker: We've maybe absorbed some assumptions about learning, like learning should be fast or, you know, they should figure this out by themselves. Like, no, actually it's about collaboration and learning actually takes time. And when we take time, we're actually learning it deeper. We're not going to have the gaps. And so it really unpacks 10 skills through conversations, guided conversations with your child that help you kind of learn about how they learn.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Positively Healthy Mom podcast. I'm your host, Laura Ollinger, teen and young adult well-being coach. And I'm super excited to introduce you to my new friend, Julen Forrest, who also happens to be from Austin, Texas, but is joining us today from Colorado, Durango, Colorado. and Got in the mountain vibe going on. So welcome to the show today, Julen. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker: Oh, good, good. So I want to give you the proper introduction here. So you've spent more than 30 years in classrooms from pre-K to college, helping learners understand the skill of learning. So learning how to learn, which I'm super excited to get into today. And you're a teacher, consultant, and creator of The Learning Mountain. You help students and educators make the learning process visible so that challenges become a pathway to growth rather than a signal to quit. I think that's a key phrase right there. Yep.
Speaker: ah And you're currently teaching at UT Austin. So this is amazing. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Yes, absolutely. All of those things are true. I know it's dating me, but that's okay. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: it take You know what? Expertise and growth takes time and practice. And if if anything is there, that's what that evidence is. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. what you What you said there about learning how to learn is so important. We focus so much on what kids, you know, what the the what and the, you know, the math, the reading, that but we don't teach them like a learning approach that matches them and who they are as a learner. And that's really what I've made my passion and my work of late. Yes. Yes. Yes. So tell us, like, you know, what is your work like? What do you teach the students? How, you know, just explain to us what it is about teaching how to learn.
Speaker: Yeah. So I think what I've noticed a lot over this 30 years is that children have not changed. Learning has not changed. Kids are capable and learning takes time and practice, right? But it's always been this sort of mystery to students, right? And I noticed this, especially in the college realm where maybe they've done something K through 12 for years and they're like, this is how ah it works for me. I get good grades, right? And I'm a learner. But then they get to college and everything kind of changes and they're sort of like, wait,
Speaker: And so I really talk about how like, it's so important to invest in learning how you learn, like, what is your approach to learning? When you hit something hard? What are the things you tell yourself about that? Is that, oh, gosh, you know what, learning takes time and challenge is normal? Or is that, oh, my gosh, something must be wrong with me?
Speaker: Understanding that those feelings are going to come is part of building that approach, right? And that we're all going to hit be no hurdles and get stuck sometimes. That's what learning's about. If we're not stepping out of that comfort zone into that growth zone, then we're not really learning.
Speaker: Right. And so understanding that learning is a process. It's not going from point A, i don't know something, to point B, i know something. Like there's a whole process in there. And that's where the learning mountain comes in. That's the shape that kids can ground themselves and say, oh, this isn't supposed to happen overnight. Because I think one of the biggest things that I've seen is if it's not happening fast, then I must not be doing it right. Right. And I think we absorb some of these assumptions and then kids absorb those from us. Right. And learning isn't a fast process. It is something that takes a lot of time and you don't get it the first time that you get it right.
Speaker: That's actually just your first step. Right. You have to continue to practice and make it something that's fluent, something that's internal, something that's yours. You know, once upon a time, we didn't know how to tie our shoes and we didn't know how to walk and we learned. And now we don't think about those things because those are internalized. But all of learning has to go through that process. And so again, showing kids that there's a process, first of all, grounds them to say, oh, that's where I am. I can actually like pinpoint this is where I am right now. I'm not way down at the beginning. I'm not here in the process and that's okay. That in itself is a grounding kind of, again, visual. But then underneath the mountain, I like to place like patterns of emotions and And we talk about that and build a rich vocabulary. It's not just, I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm sad. We really need to understand, like, I was surprised when that didn't work this time. Like, that's a positive way of thinking about it rather than, I'm so frustrated it didn't work again. Because that's the language we typically give kids. But if we kind of start expanding it to, wow, you just didn't expect that. That was surprising.
Speaker: Or, oh, that's some new information. You've learned more. You've realized something, right? Or maybe you're a little embarrassed. Those are all different feelings than just frustrated, mad. And then being able to pinpoint those along the journey, they can expect that they're going to come and they can normalize that and say, that's I might feel a little frustrated right now. And then the next step after naming it is to be able to grab the tool, right?
Speaker: I found with my kids and with my students, I had, you know, a whole calm corner or I had a basket of fidgets or I had all of these calming techniques. Yeah. But if my kids didn't know like that it was appropriate, that this is what they're feeling, they wouldn't even get the tool. so yeah you know, the naming of the emotion is really the first step at like understanding what you need to do about it.
Speaker: Because again, if a student isn't frustrated and they're surprised, they don't need to go grab that tool. They go, oh, I was just surprised. Okay, so I'll just move on, you know? yeah And so again, I think it it really helps to have that grounding and it helps with the regulation because it's an understood thing. I think learning is such a mystery for so many of us. I mean, i know as a learner now, I'm learning different devices. And I mean, constantly in this world, we've got to keep learning. And I have to remind myself,
Speaker: to not think, oh my gosh, I'm old enough. I should know this by now. No, no, no. It's just a new process. Yeah. yeah so's those are those are two of the parts of the learning mountain. And then the final part that I feel is so crucial is teaching kids how to coach themselves through it.
Speaker: I think we oftentimes are their cheerleaders, right? and we're in Which is absolutely appropriate. But it's also important to realize that like they are people and they have inner dialogues in their heads too. And what their inner dialogues are scripting right now is kind of their identity. So if they're thinking, wow, see, I'm bad at this. i i like I knew I should have had better, you know, like all of those, we need to remind them that those thoughts are going to pop up, but we can choose a more helpful track and say, hey, you know what? In this context, yeah, I knew this was going to be challenging, but that's okay. That doesn't mean I'm a bad learner. That just means I'm in this point. And so teaching them those those coaching phrases, you know, that kind of help them through it,
Speaker: is so crucial. And again, it's a visual. And so it's not just ah like a happy little thing on the wall, but it's really a mechanism to remind them because we need to be cued to practice to create those habits, right? So it started out in my classroom, but man, I have used it as a mom so, so much. And my kids know now that they have that mental map that goes with them.
Speaker: So it's kind of whole picture. Yeah. whole picture yeah I mean, and it grew yeah literally from like my own frustration with feeling like, okay, I teach them about bo their emotions over here and I teach them about learning over here. And I talked to my kids about, you know, having positive self-talk and, but they're all separate.
Speaker: And so I was like, well, why don't I just bring all together and help everything like makes sense? Yes. and And, and, and I love it because it's so simple, but yet so rich and deep at the same time. Yeah. No, that's the conundrum. That's the paradox, right? It's like, whoa, that seems so simple, but oh, wow. Right, right. And I just want to throw out there that I can completely identify in and I want to kind of create this space for the moms who are listening today about having empathy for your learner, empathy for your child, because so many times moms are like, get it done, or why don't you get it, or what's your problem, or why can't you do it, right? And so Or we're inadvertently adding to the problem, right? Like we're we're kind of like creating these negative feelings and then that's going to shut the brain down even more. They're not going to be able to take themselves through those steps or we're not going to be, you know, if we don't know these steps, we can't guide them through. So kind of just like creating space that like... Learning is a process and learning is challenging. And and I can 100% relate in my own life because I, and in my mid, actually early 40s, went back and got a master's degree. I'm now currently getting a PhD. And man, I will never forget that first week of my master's degree. I hadn't been in school in 25 before. And I thought, I can't do this. Like, i am not, my brain does not work this way anymore. I can't do it. And right, I'm having all those negative phrases go through them my my mind. And and I just thought, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, just try to, I don't know what my self-talk was, but somehow I got through that first week. Then I got through the first class. And then I, you know, end up graduating two years later, i'm like, wow, if I had let myself quit on that first week, I would have never gotten to this point.
Speaker: So now I realize anytime something is challenging, I think back to that first week. And I thought, wait, remember when I thought I couldn't do that? I just had to like get through it and go through the steps and kind of manage those emotions. And so it's just kind of like, Even as adults, as as us moms, we're learning new things all the time, too. and And if we just get frustrated or shut down, then we're not setting that a great example of like what the process of learning is for our kids. So um how can you relate to that? Oh, my gosh. Well, two things you said there just really just pop out. And number one is that you you used that moment of, hey, remember, I did it before.
Speaker: to then generalize to this new situation. That is so huge for kids and so huge for us as people to be able to spotlight the effort and the actual choices you made that made you successful. A lot of times, you know, our kids, when we ask them, like, what what do you think? Or why did you do that? They're like, but that's the point where we need to say, but I saw you do this.
Speaker: Because that then helps them start to narrate, oh, those are the choices I made that helped me. And I can repeat that, right? yeah That's exactly what you were just doing that first week. I was overwhelmed. I did this, but I chose to stick with it.
Speaker: And I can do that again. Right. Those are those pieces of what we call self-efficacy. Right. That actually build that confidence because confidence isn't something you're born with. Right. It's not just something you have or you don't. It's something that you build by seeing those successes. But if our kids never really are able to like visualize and spotlight for themselves like, oh, that's right. Remember I did that before. that reservoir needs to be built up, right? So instead of just praising, good job, you did it.
Speaker: Here's the ultimate, like what you did. Pausing to unpack what you saw them do to get to that point is what builds that reservoir for them. And I think 100% point two is what you're saying is that learning and parenting, man, parenting is the most humbling job on the planet.
Speaker: Like, no there's just no other more. I have four children myself, and they are all different. And they've all had unique experiences. And every time that I think, okay, I've got this, and then I'm like, oh, they've done something. And now wait, I can rethink it. We're constantly learning, right? And there's nothing that we're saying or doing that's like good or bad. I mean, it's really part of the experience. But I think, like you're saying, we can learn so much from our kids. We can so learn so much more about ourselves. And I think some of that awareness, like you're saying, of like sometimes we've been modeled things that we've just absorbed or constantly.
Speaker: culturally we're told. i mean, how many times have you heard from a school like, you've got to get the grades, you've got to get this, you're going here, right? All of those messages affect us and then how we pass that on to our kids. That's not like a character flaw. That is because we are being, like we're human and we're being influenced. So pausing and giving ourselves grace, but then also giving ourselves grace to kind of figure out like, what's our long-term view with our kids, right? Like, what what are we working on? Are we working on solving this moment right here?
Speaker: Or what are we building in them? And I think that helps some of this minutia become more clear. Because I feel like as a mom and then as a teacher, I would end my day and I'd be like, oh my gosh, I probably made a million thousand decisions in one day. Like, how did I think through all this, right?
Speaker: And it becomes overwhelming. But I think, again, I kind of got myself like, hey, this is what I want my kids to do. I want them to be capable. I want them to be able to take care of themselves, to take care of others, to be kind, right? And then I could kind of think through some of these other moments and I could say, okay, so how does that fit in with that bigger plan? you know But i think it really, it's that giving yourself grace that you know your kid, you know yourself, and that we're always learning. I always come into a situation and I'll ask my kids, hey, do you want me to listen right now? Or do you want me to, what do you need from me? Because I am yeah learning. And that has been so helpful. And I'll tell you, my oldest is in his 20s. And there have been times where he's like, Mom, thanks so much for just asking sometimes instead of telling. And I'm like, thanks. You know, and that really like, you know, okay, I may not have all the answers. I don't, you know. And so if I'm asking, it doesn't show that sign. It's not a weakness. It's really showing that you're curious about them and curious about new ideas and open to who they're becoming.
Speaker: Yes, yes. And I love this idea of giving yourself grace, but it's expanding the grace to them too by asking questions. And what I really see that is kind of removing judgment because um judgment is the first thing that's going to shut everybody down, right? When we're judging ourselves, when we're judging our children, it's just shutting everybody down. And so by asking curious questions, staying open, kind of giving ourselves that as well, then it's kind of just more of a flowing process. It stays open. And that's where we can then make that progress and make the connection and and hopefully move forward with that, whatever it is that we're learning or doing or communicating. I love that. Noticing, not judging. Right. Getting descriptive rather than a judgment, because again, we know how it feels to be judged and we don't, that that's, again, like you're saying that shuts us down, but the idea of noticing and then saying, wow, you know, I'm getting more information or my ideas are growing and changing. Not that, you know, I have to,
Speaker: I think sometimes we construct sort of expectations and models. And then when something happens around us, we then confirm with, you know, see, this is happening, you know. And instead, we should be like, wait a minute.
Speaker: make let me Let me take in this information, see what I feel about it, and then I can go forward, right? I'm just noticing this new information rather than, no, this information is wrong and it should not come at me. Or yeah this this expectation is not that it should be happening. My kids should be, you know, if we just kind of notice it and say, oh, wow, they did it a whole different way than I thought they would do or whatever, right?
Speaker: Yeah. And it's I love this idea of right now of giving the language or giving the vocabulary to moms about like kind of just words that we can use because it doesn't have to be a question 100 percent of the time. It can be a statement. But it's more it's just gentle. It's more of from ah an emotionally regulated state like, oh, I'm noticing, you know, you haven't gotten your backpack out tonight. Yeah. Or, hey, what's your plan for X, Y, and Z? Because, um you know, I'm noticing the time. It's getting a little late. I'm curious. What's your plan? and You mentioned earlier you have a big test tomorrow. You know, kind of just kind of not... what are you doing? Why are you doing this? Right? Because that's like what I hear the most of from teens who are complaining about their parents. Because sometimes I do ask them like, you know, well what are what what are you struggling with the most with your parents? And a lot of times the children will be having like some type of a big emotional reaction. It's very difficult for the parents to just like sit with that and not become reactive themselves. yeah So that emotional regulation piece, because I know you talked about that, but being really curious as a mom, like,
Speaker: Hey, I noticed you're freaking out right now about your best friend. Can you tell me more about what happened? Instead of like, calm down. It's not that big of a deal. Like that dismissive language. Yeah. And it's what you said, you just described what you're seeing, right? I think that's so important is just to get descriptive and just to, again, noticing and then to to pause and and take breaks and Give some time.
Speaker: I think silence is hard. um yeah I like to tell my kids too, like, I'm giving you some silence right now on purpose. Just let's let's give our let's give us a little space, right?
Speaker: Sometimes it's just to take a breath. Sometimes it's just to pause the running of what's going on either in our heads or out of our mouths, right? But like, yeah hey, I'm going to take a second And this is not a judgment call on like what's happening. I just, i let's just take a minute. Let's just give some silence, right?
Speaker: i think that's a huge piece that we're uncomfortable with because we just want that silence filled and we want to just keep fixing, right? Or we want them to fix or we want all of it out there. But I think- Sometimes our bodies really need that and it helps our minds, right? The breath is the most powerful tool we have, right? And sometimes just breath and silence and a little bit of wait time.
Speaker: um It's amazing what comes out of kids. when you give them that wait time, if they know that it's on purpose, if it's not given to them in a way that like they know what it that is coming, they might judge it themselves and say, Oh my gosh, she's mad. She's feeling this way. She's not saying anything. Right.
Speaker: But if I give them and that, that moment and I say, I'm doing this on purpose that then, okay, then I can just kind of sit in that for a second. And I think that's really good for our kids to learn too. Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, I like that. I've never heard it put in that way before. You know, we kind of talk about like, I'm going to take a timeout or maybe we should take a timeout in this conversation, but I've never heard it phrased that exact way. So I really like that. I'm going to steal that from you and and use that going forward. and I would love to get into your workbook. So talk about creating unstoppable learners.
Speaker: Oh, yes. Raising Unstoppable Learners is coming in the fall. And it's been a labor of love. And it's been just the experiences that I've had coaching different ages students being in the classroom. It unpacks, again, everything.
Speaker: As a parent, it's like, how can I approach a conversation with my kids about learning, right? How do I talk about, because we've been trained that we talk about grades and assignments and due dates, and that's what schools are responsible for teaching us like and and and keeping us accountable for, right? Or helping us as parents. Yeah. Yeah, they don't have like a whole like parent education fund that they can help us like understand learning, right? They can give us a ah a tool and a, you know, blend canvas, whatever you get your like learning management system. And this is where your kids grades are, right? But nobody gives us like help with how do I talk to my kid about learning?
Speaker: How do I even understand learning, right? And so this yeah this book is really an opportunity to kind of open up some awareness of how we've maybe absorbed some assumptions about learning, like learning should be fast or, you know, they should figure this out by themselves. Like, no, actually it's about collaboration and learning actually takes time. And when we take time, we're actually learning it deeper. We're not going to have the gaps. And so it really unpacks 10 skills through conversations, guided conversations with your child that help you kind of learn about how they learn and then they learn how they learn and they build that toolkit they need for that learning approach that we talked about at the beginning, right? These aren't the end all be all of all the skills. But if you think about like
Speaker: You know, kids being curious and asking questions and knowing how to advocate for themselves. And the idea that mistakes are not a stopping spot, they are information. Like these are these 10 crucial skills that kind of become a toolkit that help them push through and also enjoy it. Yeah. Right. I mean, our ultimate goal is that our kids love to learn and know themselves as learners. And we don't want to, you know, who better to talk to your kids than yourself. Right. You know, I wanted to be the one that had those conversations with my son and to feel confident that like he trusts himself because he knows he's got those skills. Right.
Speaker: I'm building those skills right there next to him so I can trust him with those decisions. And i feel really confident like he's about to go to college and I feel really good that I've had these conversations with him. And he's also more open to come to me and say, hey, mom, I'm really struggling with this. This is what we've talked about before because we've built these conversations. It's not a talking at. It's really a talking with. So this this resource is really a tool to help you start having those conversations with your child and to know them differently a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker: I love that. I am really just fascinated about how you kind of created that or developed it. Like, what was the ah reason for this? So a lot of it is, front i mean, i'm an I'm a research nerd. I like read research all the time. And I really noticed as both an educator and ah and a parent that like we're learning a lot about how we learn neuroscience about development we're learning all of these things as adults and we're talking about them in the adult world and it's really that like hey your self-talk is really important and i'm like why are we as like 30s and 40s and above figuring this out and unlearning why are we not making this kid friendly and giving this to our kids So I started to try to adapt a lot of this big theory. I think that's one thing that in 30 years, I've really honed my expertise in and how to explain things to kids that aren't big theoretical abstract things. Like, how do we make that practical and useful? And then I started thinking, you know, as a parent, what where where do we have that resource?
Speaker: And I couldn't find it. So I went, okay, guess what? I'm going to go write it. Okay. So that's really how it all kind of kept. But again, I like to think of it as taking, you know, the growth mindset from Carol Dweck and our amazing, you know, self-determination theory from Jesse and Ryan. And if I had them all sitting at a dinner table and I said, to Give me one nugget. What's the best thing that we can do to teach kids and parents how to learn best? And I was like, I'm going to take all of that. I'm going to make it practical.
Speaker: ah Yeah. That's how I like to think of it. Okay. Well, I'm totally getting one because i would love it. no yeah mean, you know, I have four children as well. yeah Same age as one of your sons going off to college this year and then um two in high school, one in middle school. And then I'm still a student myself. So I'm really excited to get my hands on this resource and and get some more information.
Speaker: One last question that's come up to me, and it's not your specific niche per se, but I'd be curious just because you've had 30 years of experience. You know, this executive function is a big topic for people and and staying organized. And I've had a lot of clients that I've coached with just helping them break down the steps. Yeah. um You know, step one, take your folder out. Step two, throw away the papers you don't need or recycle them. Step three, open the folder. Step four, get a pencil, right? And so I'm just curious, like how do you approach that topic, especially related to learning? and Yeah, what you know. I think this actually undergirds and supports a lot of kids that I've coached that do have executive functioning needs. um One of my children has ADHD. And I feel like, you know, there's no magic pill or magic everything to make all of this go away. It's really building this, again, not just beliefs in ourselves. Like, we can't just ah believe I'm a learner and it's going to, and I believe I can be organized. Like, there actual skill sets. you've got to learn these little steps right but i think it's that blend of like i need to know that i am a dynamic learner and i am continually doing these specific things to help me grow and then when we layer on the organization and the focus they're like okay this makes sense why all of this is important right i think having that undergirding of like i am a learner
Speaker: It's almost like kids that struggle oftentimes think of themselves as doing learning, almost like a like the difference between a musician and someone who plays music, right? Like if you see yourself as a musician, you see all of these pieces as something that you're part of this is me making music, right? But if you play music, well, if this doesn't quite go right, I'll just kind of, you And so again, if a learner can really build this, this approach and this identity as I know how the process works, I know how my emotions work with this, then we can start, they start to see learning, not just something they do or school as just something they do. It's more about them as a person. So I think it's kind of a different approach a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that I love that. well And it's also just kind of, well, A, it's identity-based, but B, it's just this like holistic. And I can imagine that like this analogy that you had of the musician works really well for an athlete or yes a theater a theater person, right? Like you need to set yourself up completely. Like you need to sleep well if you're an athlete. You need to eat well. You need to do the training. You need to make sure you have your uniform clean. Like all the little baby steps that go into performing well. At the game or on the stage or, you know, fill in the blank if you're a cheerleader, whatever that might be. But it's all those baby steps. And so like supporting those as a person who does, who is this person, right? yeah You said it beautifully. Yes. 100%. Yes.
Speaker: hundred percent yes Yes. Awesome. Okay. So how can people find you and your workbook? Great. i I am on Substack. I am on Facebook and Instagram, but my website is autonomylearning.com. I would love to talk to any and everybody about what I'm doing and how I can support. And yeah, that's, I'm excited.
Speaker: Well, one last question there. are you i When you work with families, you know what does that service look like just so people would know what to expect? Yeah. So you know it's really flexible to what their families needed. I have a few different coaching packages. Sometimes I work with groups of families that come together or I like to work one-on-one with kids as well. Okay. So it's really, on the website, there's a couple different ways that we can do it. But I'm really, because this is a... you know, one woman show and I'm really the one doing it, I can, I can be much more flexible with, with what the need is. So. Fantastic. Julian, thank you so much for your time. Amazing conversation. oh thank you so much, Laura. Beautiful cool vacation before you get back to hot Texas. Yeah, it's, it's ending quick.
Speaker: but Thank you, Laura. Sounds good. Bye. Bye. When you get a chance, please go to the show notes and click on the link ratethispodcast.com slash tphmom to give my podcast a rating and review.
Speaker: And if this episode resonates with you, be sure to share it with your mom friends who are going through the same things. Be sure to tune in for next week's conversation. Until then, keep up the good work.
