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Season 3, Episode 17 - Angie Brown / Shawna Quenneville
91 Plays2 years ago
Angie and Shawna are back in the arena! The ladies join me to discuss an idea that we are using at Thompson ES this year and how the discussions are enhancing teaching and learning outcomes. It is a fabulous conversation, and gives the listener an example of the topics and conversations we have daily while working to be the best team and school possible.
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Transcript
Shifting from Book Studies to Podcast Studies
00:00:12
Speaker
Hi, ladies. How are you? Great. How are you? Thanks for coming back. I appreciate it. Yes, you're welcome. Thanks for having us back. So I have Shauna and Angie back. They were previous guests. I wanted to have them come on and basically talk about an idea that we have been doing this year. This year, we have so much money that we can spend on extra duty and things like that. So rather than doing book studies, we decided to do podcast studies.
00:00:40
Speaker
And we've been having staff members listen to certain podcasts. We thought that that might be a good idea for some administrators out there to hear about. So we're going to talk about the three podcasts that we've listened to so far and just kind of give our take on the topics and see where it goes. With us three all in the same room, you never know.
00:01:01
Speaker
where it's going to go. For those of you that are new, Shawna Quineville is the AP at Thompson and Angie Brown is the read by grade three strategist at Thompson. These are the ladies that help keep me out of trouble and they keep me organized and basically just take care of all the stuff that I don't want to do.
Engagement Challenges in Podcast Discussions
00:01:21
Speaker
All right, so overall the podcast, how do you guys feel like they're going?
00:01:31
Speaker
Um, I think they're great. I just wish, um, more people were there. Um, the conversations that are, that we are having, I feel are productive. Um, and there's a lot going on there and there's relationships building, like there's people that are getting to know each other that may have never like, you know, had this opportunity to talk to one another. Um, and we're talking about, you know, things that matter. So I think they're productive. I just wish there were more people there.
00:01:59
Speaker
Well, sure. I mean, we wish we had the entire licensed staff there. The first meeting we had was a lot. It was like 20, and then it's dwindled. I don't know if it's because of the topics, but anyway, Angelica. Well, having done the book studies and now doing the podcast studies, I feel like
00:02:17
Speaker
There's a lot more value in the podcast studies, not that the books warrant, but I guess, I don't know, I don't know if podcasts are just easier for people to listen to or relate to, or they're just easier to interact with, but I just enjoy the conversations that come out of them. Yeah, I think they are easier. I mean, you can do so much while you're listening to the podcast, like Cindy's probably doing her run on Saturday or checking the garden or
00:02:44
Speaker
you know, people are driving to work or doing whatever. So that's much easier than reading a book for sure.
Structured Teaching Methods Debate
00:02:50
Speaker
It's also cheaper. I don't have to buy everybody a book, which is great. And last week, remember one of our staff members shared that she was listening to it and her husband overheard it and it got them into a really good conversation. So it extends beyond
00:03:05
Speaker
school and what our purpose for it is too. So that's true. I mean, I guess you could look at that way. It might spur some different conversations and see see where it goes. I wonder what like someone who isn't a teacher or in the profession would think of some of the podcasts though. Yeah, I mean, you know, that's one of the things I think I noticed after our first podcast that we had was
00:03:30
Speaker
I think a lot of, I mean, it's just like with everything else, you just kind of bring your own perspective into it and your own outlook on things. So I remember the three of us listened to it, but we all had such different takeaways. And then hearing our staff input into it, you can hear that certain things stood out more to them than they did to us. So that's been kind of fascinating to see like what people's takeaways are.
00:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, it is fascinating. I mean we listen to the same one and all three of us are pretty pretty in sync. Yeah, we hear different things and then the conversations are fun because you know in the end it's all about perspective. But you know we get to like Sean and I get to give the admin side and then Angie and Tracy are kind of in between a little bit. And then of course you have the teachers and it's fascinating to get to get there.
00:04:24
Speaker
their take. So the first podcast that we did, Angie, what was that one again? It was from Melissa and Lori Love Literacy and the specific episode we listened to was episode 108.
00:04:36
Speaker
And it featured Angie Hanlon, who is a superintendent in Wisconsin. And the stories that she shared were about how she got her school from, I think they were at like 13% proficient to 100% proficiency in one school year. But it wasn't at her school in Wisconsin that that story was from, it was from a school that she worked at, I wanna say in Michigan, one of those M states, Missouri, Michigan. It's just a few of them.
Identifying Teaching Weaknesses and Feedback
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah. So I, and that one was fun too, because she, that principal, um, I guess Lori, uh, Ms. Hanlon, Angie Hanlon, well, we should be able to remember that. Um, she is very different. And I feel than I am or than Shawna would be. I feel like she's a little more hardcore extreme with the systems and structures and expectations. And of course we're a little more loose. We don't care how you teach the kids or we try not to care.
00:05:35
Speaker
As long as the kids are learning so that was fascinating because What that kind of brought out of ours was how the teachers at Thompson? Say they want more structure, but we're not quite sure that they really do Because it sounds lovely when you have structure and tell you're in it everybody. This is a great statement Everybody follows 100% of the rules they agree with But after that
00:06:00
Speaker
You got to start to start to police things. So that was fascinating to me. I don't know what else you all. Yeah. I feel like during that, you know, when we all got together to talk about that podcast, that was the main thing that came out is that everybody's like, yeah, we need structure. We need these expectations. We need stuff that everybody's doing and following. And then we're like, okay, you really want that? Are you sure you want that? Because, you know, we can do that. And then as time has gone the last couple of weeks, I kind of feel, I see people like kind of pulling back.
00:06:30
Speaker
from that um well but it's hard for us to manage all people too like when you say all you know like you have to have when we have systems and structures they're just very um i would say people think that they're very loose it's a big circle just stay in the circle um and then we have systems but it seemed to me like they wanted more
00:06:53
Speaker
And when I say they, I say the people who are at the podcast. So we're always balancing, and Angie's got to see this from kind of her perspective, we're always balancing everybody and their wants and needs and trying to do for the greater good. And this really pointed that out. Yeah, and I think one of the things too, like during that meetup, people were like, you know, we want help, we want support. And we're like, well, we ask you guys all the times, what do you need help with? Well, we don't know.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I've talked to people about that. And they're like, well, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And that's, that's true in some degree, but I struggle, you know, when I was teaching back in the Stone Ages, I knew the areas I stunk at. Right.
00:07:38
Speaker
So I don't, maybe some people are really oblivious to what they stink at. I don't know. Um, but to me, I mean, being a data person that all comes back to data. Like if my data is not good or I'm, you know, weaker in one area, according to my data, then that to me is so much. And like, that's what I would be trying. Like the numbers to me is always, you know, I'm always trying to reach higher numbers, um, in that aspect.
Adapting Teaching Approaches
00:08:05
Speaker
So that's where I would seek help and ask for.
00:08:08
Speaker
you know, support. It's, it's hard. It's hard when you're in it every day. Like you only obviously see your own patterns. You only see like what goes on. But I think there's a lot of power in observing your own patterns and the things that maybe I know for me, it was powerful. One year I had a tough year and I was like,
00:08:30
Speaker
What am I constantly complaining about? Okay, well, it's X, Y, Z. Okay, well, is that in my control or is that out of my control? Okay, well, it is within my control. So what can I do to change that? Right, because you don't want to live in that every single day. If you're struggling or you feel uncomfortable or it's like something that bothers you day in and day out, wouldn't you want to change it? Right, exactly.
00:08:55
Speaker
but some people don't. It's fascinating too, because one of the things that came out of that, Angie Hanlon, she's quoted a lot of research. She knows her research. She did talk about John Hattie, who we did a podcast on later. And she basically said, we've bought into the 10 Mind Frames. And everybody, I felt like, well, most people in the podcast, when you start looking at the Mind Frames, you're like, absolutely. If they don't like it, they can go.
00:09:22
Speaker
But then I had this strange feeling that if I dropped the 10 mind frames on the staff, they might be like, oh, he's being mean. It's such a fascinating thing because I think even one person was like, yeah, if they don't like it, they can transfer. But then another problem is we're just going to go out. It's just who knows where this conversation is going to go now. But there's not a line of people to fill the positions that we might have.
00:09:50
Speaker
So it's like, okay, we can drop the mind frames on them. But then if we lose 19 people, there's not 19 more people saying they're waiting. Yeah, that's a good point. But it's just, I don't know, it just comes down to like, being reflective and reflecting on what you do and how you can fix it and how you affect the environment you're in and
00:10:14
Speaker
wanting to make those changes. And that's just the hard part. Like I can go into a classroom and see what I think you need to change. And I can give you that feedback. But if you don't see it and you're not willing to change it, then
00:10:26
Speaker
you're just going to be stuck in the same cycle you've been in. Right and I think those mind frames are important because like you're saying like if you don't change it and so I always come back to this but like a lot of times people think they're supposed to change like what they're using and not necessarily how they're doing it. So just because you change your program or you change what you're giving the kids doesn't mean that everything's gonna you know get better
00:10:51
Speaker
I think it all comes back to the person who's presenting it to the students or working with
Reflective Conversations on Differentiation
00:10:57
Speaker
the students. You have to change something in how you're doing it. You're going right into one of the things that Hattie said in one of the later podcasts, which is we have to take the focus off of teaching and put it on the learning. Right.
00:11:11
Speaker
And that's so true, but a lot of people in my career, they just wanna keep doing what they've been doing and try to get better at that when it's not working. And sometimes that has to happen, but at some point in time, you have to try something new or do something. And then also, another point that was made at some point in the last three weeks was that people are great at giving feedback, but not receiving it.
00:11:38
Speaker
And I think that's very, very true of education. I think one person said, well, that's because teaching is so personal. And that's true. I mean, I can see that, like, listen, at the end of the day, nobody wants to be told like, well, you're not doing this well and this well, and you can improve in this area. But again, I mean, speaking for myself, when you're in a classroom teaching,
00:12:02
Speaker
it's you and those four walls and those kids. So you just think like, this is just what everybody does, or this is just exactly the way that you do it. And so feedback is nice if you're not doing something well, because other people like the majority of the feedback you get are from like your admin, right? And so they're the ones who walk around and they see better things.
Empathy and Strategies in Math Teaching
00:12:22
Speaker
So those are the people that you should be
00:12:25
Speaker
receptive to the most feedback from. But I see that you guys get pushback on some of the feedback you give. And so that's kind of the fine line of like, okay, well, you want the feedback, but you're not willing to take it. But if I send this person in there, then it comes across as like, well, you know, then you get defensive because you think they're judging you, but they're not. And I think we all just kind of lose sight of the fact that we're all just here because we want to do what's best for kids and a lot of that.
00:12:52
Speaker
It's going to take feedback. And just because this is the way you've always done it doesn't mean that it's right. So. Well, yeah. And I always say, you know, my job is to get everybody to think. So if I can get you to take if I give you a piece of feedback and you at least think about it and you think, oh, that's not good. I do this better. OK, well, at least I got you to think, which I think is a win on our side.
00:13:15
Speaker
But it's funny, though, because, you know, I've had people in the past are like, Well, they never give us feedback. And then I'll look on their observation form. And literally on the first, the first standard is a suggestion. And it's just like, I think people have all of us, me included, we have selective hearing, and we hear what we want to hear. And and then we're moving on.
00:13:44
Speaker
Yeah, that was that was such a profound thought that you two were speechless. That's the first time I've got you both speechless at the same time.
00:13:57
Speaker
What else? What other huge thoughts? Anyway, the podcast for admin out there, give it a shot. I mean, it's so easy. People listen to them. This is just an idea that the librarian had at Thompson last year. And I'm like, oh yeah, that definitely is a good idea. So anyways, what else? Let's keep going. Well, my last thought on the first podcast that we all listened to that stuck out to me was
00:14:21
Speaker
Uh, it was said that just because you taught it doesn't mean that the students learned it. And so I've always struggled with that definition of taught, like if the kids didn't learn it, did you really teach it just because you delivered the lesson doesn't mean it was effective. And I think, you know, sometimes people lose sight of that. Which brings it back to the idea. You don't have to focus on learning and not teaching. I guess you have to define what being taught is. If you don't know it, were you taught it? Right.
00:14:50
Speaker
You have to define that. I mean, I told it or told. Yeah. I mean, it's a different verb there. You knew you're told, but did you? Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Anyways, Angelica. Um, I'm looking through my notes. I know.
00:15:08
Speaker
For me, what stood out in that podcast too was she talked a lot about the importance of like repetitions. And yes, I remember that. Yeah. We talked a lot about how important repetitions are and even the part that stood out, which I think like we just, most teachers naturally do.
00:15:26
Speaker
is how she even differentiates repetitions within a whole group lesson. So she'll ask something, but she'll specifically call on the lower kids to try to give them more opportunities for repetitions, even in a whole group lesson. And I think what I've gathered the most from these last three weeks of podcasts was,
00:15:47
Speaker
Teachers have been so reflective about what differentiation looks like in their classrooms and small groups. And I think it's just gotten a whole bunch of people talking about that, which is good because I know that that's something that we've talked about even, you know, how our small groups run and what's the best way. And I know, I mean, even this weekend, you shared something with me on Instagram about what small groups should look like. And so it just makes me think like over the years on my own experiences in teaching, what's most effective
00:16:17
Speaker
um, when it comes to small groups and trying to target all learners and, and what the best way for that to look like is. One of the things I've always, I mean, I've said that before, um, you know, when I say don't slow the hike is down, you're like, it takes one to four repetitions before they've got it. Why do they need to do 29? They don't, but yet differentiating is hard. It takes
Optimal Testing Environments and Accountability
00:16:44
Speaker
time. It takes thought.
00:16:47
Speaker
Um, so if I'm doing a whole group lesson and I know that the quote unquote high kids have it, then they don't need repetitions. So I'm going to pick on the students that need the repetitions. Well, you know, it's oftentimes only the students who are quote unquote high academically that are raising their hands. So you kind of have to constantly battle that as well.
00:17:12
Speaker
Yeah, and that also kind of goes back to questioning too and just making sure you're asking the right types of questions and knowing your kids. Like, okay, I've got this kid who's not answering anything at all. Is that because they don't understand or do they need me to kind of scaffold this a little bit better for them? You know, so you'll tailor your questions differently, but you know, again, that also requires you to really know your kids too and know what your kids need and how to get them from point A to B.
00:17:42
Speaker
So let's move to the math one. Shauna, you are a math person. Math is your thing. You love it. So what profound, provocative statement that you want to make about the math podcast? A lot of the things that we just talked about are actually, you know, they're
00:18:00
Speaker
brought up in this next podcast as well. So this podcast was Making Math Moments Matter. Their guest was Rick Warmley, episode 256. And basically it was like having empathy when teaching math. So, you know, teachers have to be open to what students are doing. So if you're teaching, you know, a math concept a certain way and a student comes to you
00:18:28
Speaker
you should take the time to see what they're doing. Maybe they might not be doing it exactly how you taught them, but don't just say, no, you did it wrong, go back and fix it. But spending that time to let them show you what they know and how they did it, because it might work for them. And I've seen so many times kids come up and show me how they got to an answer, and eventually they did work through the method that I taught them. It's just they started out different.
00:18:58
Speaker
If you're not spending that time with the student to really get to see what they're doing, then you might be doing a disservice to them and just shutting them down. I feel like with math, so much of it is confidence and allowing the kids to really get into it and learn it themselves. It also led to a suggestion from one of the teachers.
00:19:22
Speaker
I
Interpreting Data for Instructional Improvement
00:19:23
Speaker
think it was this this week where she said that she doesn't give them a traditional test. She'll give them a test that has the problems completed and she'll say which ones are correct and which are not and how did the how did this dude mess up on the ones that are not right which is way more higher order than just giving them a regular assessment.
00:19:43
Speaker
that that was a fabulous idea. I hope more people run with that. Because if you have to analyze it and explain it, that's exactly what we need kids to be able to do. Right, which is putting them to edit, right, the work of maybe somebody else or whatever was presented to them.
00:20:00
Speaker
And in this podcast, they said that whoever's doing the editing is the one that's doing the learning. So again, when the kids come to you and they have wrong work, you shouldn't say, oh, you messed up right here. Go fix it or go look at this. I always had the kids like, okay, tell me what you did. Even if it was wrong, I would say, tell me what you did. And they'd start walking through the steps and they would catch their mistake on their own. And that's so much more powerful.
00:20:25
Speaker
then you're just telling them that they messed up because now they're focused on that and next time they're less likely to make the same mistake.
00:20:35
Speaker
That's my struggle right now. So I have two older boys. One's in high school and one's in middle school. And I feel so disconnected from their work. One's in geometry, one's in algebra, and their grades in math are not great right now. But as a parent, I struggle with how to help them because, and maybe I'm just old school in this sense, but everything's done on the computer, everything's done online. I don't see
00:21:00
Speaker
papers. I mean, not that I would really understand how to sit and walk them through the steps. Anyways, let's just be real, Matt's not my thing, but that's the hard part for me is like, well, okay, you know, it's just a grave through my phone that I see, but I think that it is
00:21:16
Speaker
powerful to see their work, to see like, okay, well, what did you do? Okay, well, oh, look buddy, you subtracted when you should have added this. And I know everything's digital and computerized these days, but I think especially with math, if kids aren't editing and looking for ways to find their mistakes, then how do you know that they're learning? And part of me wonders like,
00:21:39
Speaker
Is that why? I mean, I know we've had this discussion with our own personal children and their math grades right now. And that's, you know, I don't know, it just raises a red flag to me, like, are these digital computer things? And I know that they have to do them for SBAC and whatever, but I just don't know how much editing of their own work there is. I don't know how much actual like feedback from the teacher there is to help them fix their mistakes. And so like, is it just rolling over from year to year that they don't know what they're doing or how to fix
00:22:09
Speaker
the mistakes that they're making. I don't know, but it sounds like you're thinking about it. I sure am. Infinite Campus doesn't let me forget. No, it doesn't. Another thing that came out of the first and the second meetings was all about the testing environment. It's fascinating. You would think that
00:22:35
Speaker
every teacher would provide the best testing environment possible because the assessments matter. But yet, does everybody understand what a good testing environment is? I don't know. Especially when they know that we're looking at the achievement and the progress in their classroom. So wouldn't you want your
00:23:00
Speaker
environment to be suitable for the best possible results of what you did with your kids. You would think, but then again, let's think about it. I mean, other than talking to you about your data, what's going to happen to you if your data stinks?
00:23:15
Speaker
gonna have to like figure it out and try to help you and hopefully you're willing to accept the help but if not you can just you know you can keep on trucking we're I mean we got other things to do we can't be in your room the whole time which is hard for us I know again we've had these conversations it's hard for us to understand because like
00:23:32
Speaker
Personally, I wouldn't be okay with... I just wouldn't be okay with that. I can't see having my testing environment where kids are on the floor here and some are tapping pencils here and some are throwing dice over here and then my results came back and 50 to 60% of my kids were proficient. I just wouldn't... I don't know. I wouldn't be okay with that.
00:23:55
Speaker
I wonder though, this is a good conversation. You guys hear me say this, second sucks. Doesn't sign up to be second. It's like Ricky Bobby. If you ain't first, you last.
00:24:10
Speaker
It's not like I took a test and I got 60%. These are children that I'm responsible for this year in teaching. If I got a 60% on a test, I may be okay. I'm not, but some people might be. It's only affecting you, but when you're a teacher,
00:24:32
Speaker
It's your students. You're affecting all those lives in that classroom. This wasn't part of the podcast, but let's just keep going on this subject. You and I, all three of us, we do not understand. You'll have someone say, well, our grade level, I'll make this stuff up. Our grade level was at 70 percent proficient last year.
Personal Challenges with Data-Driven Feedback
00:24:52
Speaker
Well, that's great, but we're failing 30 percent. So if you have 30 kids, nine of them are not proficient.
00:25:00
Speaker
We can't afford to let nine kids fail. So you have to take the other perspective on that. And so like when people, when they don't take this stuff seriously, it kind of drives us crazy because that's not our mentality. I just, I don't know. So I'm going to be really curious to see, especially after this podcast study, and I know there's been like
00:25:24
Speaker
in our win meetings, some people have mentioned that their testing environment should look a little bit different. But I honestly wonder, when people look at their data, are they just reflecting on their teaching practices and maybe what programs and things they use? Are they not even thinking that their testing environment plays a part
00:25:45
Speaker
in their data and their results. That's what I'm going to do. There's actual research behind environments. Right. I think I just feel like people might look at their data, and they might just be like, oh, my scores were so low. It's because I'm using this for reading, and now I need to switch this. When in reality, you just need to have your kids sitting at a table. But this comes back to something we talk about all the time, where we think, and I'm not trying to throw anybody on the bus, so please know that. This is a very generalized statement.
00:26:14
Speaker
we think that that's common sense. Right. But we say this a lot like there's there's not a lot of common sense in some common areas. So do we need to spend time we're actually spending time talking about this in the future on what constitutes a a good testing environment? Should we have to spend time on saying
00:26:41
Speaker
They should not be talking. They should be focused. I don't know. Well, and I mean, again, in our meetings that we had with teachers, as we asked them to reflect, there were several of them that asked for help, which is great. I mean, that was the purpose of that whole meeting. And there were several of them that said, yes, I'd like you to be in my room to help facilitate this or help. So I mean, it's good. It gets them thinking.
00:27:10
Speaker
But at the same time, it just makes me wonder how many people aren't asking for help that have environments that could improve their... Right. You think that they would control that piece because that's controllable. Right. And then, I guess, back to where Shawn is, where if my scores were not great, I would think, okay, what could I do better? I think that's one area I would make sure I had said.
00:27:36
Speaker
I just wonder again if people don't reflect on that part of
Hattie's Research on Teaching Methods
00:27:40
Speaker
it. If they just don't see
00:27:43
Speaker
problem and I mean we have some I mean we have amazing teachers at our school like it's but you know some sorry some people have a good point which I think we have to validate that there can be one turkey in there that can totally set someone off or you know they tap their pencil on purpose because they can't do the work so they're trying to find a way out so I think we can support them by having you know a few but we can't have you know
00:28:11
Speaker
100. So it's expectations. Yes, there are some kids who need an alternative setting, but also just keeping the ones that need focus sitting next to you. There's no rule that says they have to take it at their desk.
00:28:30
Speaker
So okay shifting gears I have been lucky. I think I've talked about this to have Learned about John Hattie many many years ago, and I've always been really into him know thy impact And of course he's coming out or he came out with a you know an updated book this year and So I wanted to do John Hattie on the podcast and the podcast that we're doing when we come back after Thanksgiving break is more John Hattie what
00:29:00
Speaker
What areas of the podcast on Hattie stuck out most to you both? Well, I know we'll probably agree on a lot of them, but the one that I know we started with was the interpretation of data and how important it is. So the school that I came from, I feel like
00:29:24
Speaker
We individually looked at like our maps data. We also did RTI so like we knew where our kids were. But then I remember when I came to Thompson it was like here's this whole benchmark spreadsheet and here's this and I just remember being.
00:29:36
Speaker
Um, it was probably obnoxious at the time, but I was just so genuinely interested. I would ask all these questions like, well, what does this color mean? And what does this number mean? And why are we looking at this and where does this come from? And I just know how much it helped me that first year, um, interpreting that data. It wasn't just like, put it into a spreadsheet. Here's all the colors. This is just what it is, but just learning more about my kids and what to do with that. And I know that that was a big topic of conversation at our,
00:30:02
Speaker
Um, last podcast meeting that we had with our staff. Yeah. So I, my, from this Hattie podcast was the same thing. Like we don't need to teach people to look at data. We need to teach them how to interpret it. I just remember as a classroom teacher and like my last few years when I was a math strategist and I had three groups of so-called bubble students.
00:30:26
Speaker
Um, I just remember like every time I got, you know, those test results back, I would, and I'm a paper pencil kind of person. Um, I would write down every kid's name. I would write down their scores from the last time to this time, like how much they grew or how much they digress.
00:30:43
Speaker
if that even happened and I would like write reasons next to it. I would like, you know, what did I do with this? I just broke it down so, so much and I was like in it for like a week or so and because I couldn't just like, oh, why did these five kids? Of course those five kids, you know, didn't grow as much as everybody else. They're always talking or whatever. Like that wasn't
00:31:05
Speaker
That wasn't on my radar of excuses. Like it was, I just dug deep into the data and like wanted to know more and get as much of it as I could from that data so that I could, you know, even to like, what teacher did this kid come from? You know, like is there, are there patterns? I would look for patterns just to try to get the whole picture to, you know, make it better.
00:31:26
Speaker
and see what I could do next. You love data. Angie, when you first got to Thompson, we created an animal with data. You two love it. You love it. Tracy loves it because there's a good statement. If you basically squeeze the data long enough, it will confess.
00:31:52
Speaker
Are we just different in the fact that we genuinely love, like we will, over winter break, we're gonna spend hours breaking math down, you know it's coming.
00:32:02
Speaker
Our teachers, some teachers just, they don't like, I know some admin don't even look at map other than when their supervisor makes them. Are we just different? Are we built differently? But that's just crazy to me because how do you know what's happening if you're not looking at the data and you're not questioning it and you're not thinking of different ways?
00:32:29
Speaker
I mean, that's like our job. Like we have to figure out the problems so that we can provide solutions to it. And if we're just looking at the very surface level, then I feel like we're doing a disservice to so many people. But you get back to the teachers and we have them too. They know who they are who don't like MAP and it's district wide. There's tons of teachers that don't like MAP. Well, okay, fine. Then
00:32:54
Speaker
There's no reason to stink on it just because you don't like it. So why, why don't people use, like data should be the guide. I'm pretty sure that's Hattie. Hattie, data should guide your path. Why aren't people willing? Is it an ego thing?
00:33:13
Speaker
And they don't map, but your kids are being compared to kids all over the country. And it's showing what your kids know compared to what other kids know. And if your kids are sucking, then I don't understand. Why are you OK with that?
00:33:28
Speaker
I agree. I don't understand at all. Well, maybe it's ... I don't know. Maybe it goes back to what Hattie's talking about to begin with, that it's not just about collecting the data, it's about interpreting it. If you hate it so much, then that's when you research even more. What is it that you hate about it? Is it because you don't understand it? Is it because you disagree with the questions? Okay, well, where are the questions coming from?
00:33:53
Speaker
But it goes back to the accountability piece. How many teachers don't want to be accountable to the data so they just blame the test or the kids?
00:34:05
Speaker
I don't like the way the application is to get into, you know, UNLV. So what? So you're just not going to, you know, UNLV didn't accept me. It's a bad application in that school. You can't just keep making excuses. Like that's what the standards are for people to be judged on and compared. And like, it's our job to set these kids up to be successful amongst their peers. Like that's, I mean, that's your job.
00:34:31
Speaker
I don't know. I appreciate your passion. This one gets you fired up. What else about Hattie? I think it's fascinating. Visible learning, basically the sequel came out. We started looking at that. How many things people do that don't have a positive effect on learning? For example, this is just an example. I love Hattie because he makes me think.
00:35:00
Speaker
Homework in elementary school is not found to have a significant impact. But then he says, that doesn't mean don't do homework. It means find a way to make it have a significant impact, which I think is just fascinating. But what we have, I admit, I was like this, well, there's no reason to do homework.
00:35:19
Speaker
But then the kindergarten team blessed their hearts. They just know they need to practice writing their name. They need to practice counting to 10 at home. And so they have found a way to make it work. But I think it's just got to be meaningful. You know, like what are you doing with that homework? Are those skills that the kids
00:35:43
Speaker
really, like, is it going to benefit them to continue working on that at home? And what are you doing with it? Like, I know we've talked about our, you know, middle schoolers bringing home stuff and having pages and problems.
00:35:55
Speaker
And I know they talked about this in that math podcast too that we talked about. What's the benefit? Less is more with that kind of stuff. Instead of assigning 35 problems, assign five, but make sure you actually go over those five in class the next day so that kids can catch their mistakes and see what they're doing. So if you're using it right, I don't think...
00:36:14
Speaker
That it's that bad but. I mean if you're just assigning it for the sake of giving kids tasks to complete and they're not doing anything with it and neither are you then yeah it's definitely. Yeah and then so that leads into another thing how you talked about where the science of reading came up.
00:36:31
Speaker
I think it was this podcast. If not, the people listening are going to get a little sneak peek, but science of reading like phonics has its place and it has its importance, but once a kid has it, they don't need to listen to stuff anymore that they don't have. And so you have to find that time where does a kid need to sit and listen to you do that phonics lesson when they know how to read.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah, it was this podcast at minute 22 that kids that know how to read, they don't need to sit through phonics. Like they've already understood how the phonics of words and everything works. That's why they're reading. Let me go to the primary person in this group though, Angie. When you used to teach first grade, the argument for kindergarten, first or second grade is they need to make sure the foundation is solid.
00:37:21
Speaker
I mean, I would agree you need to make sure the foundation is solid, but if you have a kid that can read chapter books, obviously their foundation is solid. And I think when you think of...
00:37:33
Speaker
like reading foundations and phonics, like, yes, foundations are important. Those are the, you know, like that the kids need to have some of those foundational skills. But when you're talking about like an older grades, they were talking about how phonics are so important and they were talking about word endings and morphology and that stuff like that's still phonics. But I mean, I don't know that all kids need that. I just, I don't know. I am going to be a hundred percent transparent and tell you I taught first grade,
00:38:02
Speaker
for a very long time without knowing the science of reading. I couldn't tell you the syllable types. I couldn't tell you dipthongs and die. I mean, a lot of them. I'm just being 100% transparent in that. And I had a lot of success as a first grade teacher.
Reflective Practices Through Observation
00:38:20
Speaker
And I mean, it's great. I'm learning a lot now. I have to do these letters trainings that I sit and complain about all the time. But they are actually like I'm learning things and I'm understanding the,
00:38:30
Speaker
why and the how behind the things that were working. But at the time, as I was doing them, I didn't realize that this actually has a name, this has a rule to it. Like, it's just, I don't know, this letter just makes this sound, but sometimes it makes these three other sounds. And this is what it is. And you, you know, I mean, listen, never claim anything. And
00:38:50
Speaker
We can't teach everything explicitly. We don't have time. I don't know what a diphthong is or a digraph. I probably could, you know, I can figure it out. I just like off the top of my head though. I don't, I've been admitting that to a lot of people. A lot of principals out there are like, like, what, how the hell did he become a principal? But it's, I didn't learn that way. And so I struggle greatly with it, but managed, you know, here I am.
00:39:19
Speaker
So I struggle, I know finance is important. Patty even backs that one up. But at some point in time, we've got to get them reading to learn rather than learning to read. Okay. Go ahead, Shauna. No, I was just saying, I think that goes back to knowing what your kids need or knowing your kids because I feel like in the past, it's been teachers, primary teachers,
00:39:44
Speaker
And every group of teachers has their only thing that they do. But it's like, nope, this is what they're supposed to do in first grade. So we're going to make everybody sit through it and everybody's going to do it. And like not everybody needs it. So I think you need to know what your kids need individually so that you can differentiate. And if some kids need phonics and they need phonics, if some kids are ready to move on, then they're ready. And it's your job to manage that and juggle it so that every kid is getting what they need.
00:40:13
Speaker
But when you go back to the first podcast, that lady was a believer. I can't remember if she said trophies or wonders or whatever her basil was. She seemed to be a believer in the basil. Us three are not. I think many people are not. So I wish we could talk to her and say, okay, but
00:40:38
Speaker
we know that not every kid needs the exact same thing at the same time. So how did she handle that? I know, I'm just thinking, thinking as we go. I read some research this summer about Hattie, basically the sequel coming out. He has gotten to where
00:40:56
Speaker
He is trying to get teachers to be recorded, but then we have to know their thinking while they're teaching. And so one of my goals this year, you ladies were involved in this, is record a teacher and then have her overlay her thoughts while she was teaching that. And then let the staff watch that because you learn more when the teacher says,
00:41:21
Speaker
right now I was thinking I need to call on him. I was thinking I need to go walk over there and make sure that person's on task. So Hattie basically has found this new approach and we're trying to use it. My thought process is how many people will reflect enough
00:41:44
Speaker
based upon watching the video of the teacher that we recorded, or will they just, will they be professional and try to actually grow from it? Well, I think it was powerful too. We just did our walkthroughs last week.
00:42:03
Speaker
a lot of the reflections that people had, like we gave them the guiding questions and the things we wanted them to look for, but a lot of people were like, well, we were only in there five minutes and we don't know these kids and we don't know what was going on. We don't know if this was differentiated for them or not. So I'm excited.
00:42:22
Speaker
That video is actually on my list of things to get done I'm excited for our staff to be able to watch that because I think that it is Like I think teachers do those kinds of things all the time But again, if you're just walking through and that's what Hattie said like walkthroughs are great But you only see what you can see you don't know the why behind
00:42:41
Speaker
Which was the reflection of all the teachers for the most part every time we we debriefed is why I wish I would have known before I wish I could have stayed a little longer right as walkthroughs are hard, you know, we only have a certain amount of time this year to do it but I think we're moving in the right direction where like I think something like this has you have to create the culture of
00:43:08
Speaker
for it and so I feel like the walkthroughs and then these podcasts like we're starting to get there like it's not something easy to do is to watch somebody else and then be self-reflective or let other people watch you that's even you know
Challenges in Achieving Teacher Efficacy
00:43:22
Speaker
more difficult but I think we're moving towards that and I think people are starting to like open up and trust each other and get to that point. So you led right into kind of the last topic I have which is collective teacher efficacy.
00:43:36
Speaker
which basically means everybody has the same goals, the same intentions, and wants to do the best for the students. My goal, our goal at Thompson is to someday,
00:43:47
Speaker
get teachers to where they basically say, Shana, I know you teach fractions much better than me. Can I come and watch you teach fractions? Shana says, yes, I will see if Angie can cover you at this time. And then that teacher goes and watch Shana. And then basically you get to have a post observation conference between the teachers and you're just working together to get better for the kids. And we have a common goal.
00:44:13
Speaker
in that nature. Why do you think this is such a monumental task even at our school who you know we we feel like we're going in the right direction? Is it I mean is it because teaching is so personal and when you ask for help you basically have to show some insecurity?
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I mean, even like you posing that question just gets me thinking and I know you like sports analogies and I always think of like doctors and diagnosing and finding the cure when I think about analogies, but it's like any other profession, like I know my son, he plays soccer, like they have to sit there and they have to watch like.
00:44:57
Speaker
you know, their games and everybody's there watching them and everybody's there criticizing and, you know, saying what should have happened and who should have moved where and all this stuff. And I know I've seen like surgeons, you know, they, when they're, or doctors, when they're preparing to become, you know, whatever their goal is, they sit there and they watch other surgeries be performed or, you know, there's there with the other doctor in the meeting or in the, you know, appointments and stuff like that. Yet in teaching, it's just so, I don't know.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah, one of the things that I use in my presentation about the V Principal perspective is a video of the NFL lineman all get together in the summer and they're on the opposite teams during the season, but during the summer they're on the same team and they get together and they talk about all the things that make them great at their job. Nobody has to tell them to do this. They go, they pay to go and they are learning from basically their opposition.
00:45:56
Speaker
But they're learning because they have a collective offensive lineman efficacy. Why? I just struggle. I mean, I've told you guys this. I don't understand. But why do we have such a hard time getting to that point?
00:46:13
Speaker
I know the schedule is hard, you know, traditionally, which we're working on. But why we have people that will go cover, I'll go cover, it might not be pretty, but I'll do it. But why? Why do you feel like that's such a hard thing to get to? Is it just because it's so personal? I think so. And I think it comes down to like personalities, too. You know, like there are some people that it might just be a pride thing. Like, I'm not
00:46:38
Speaker
good at this, but I'm also not gonna go and admit that you're better at this than I am. So I'm just gonna suffer through or I'm just gonna keep doing what I do or try something different myself. I mean, I don't know. I've never been a person that has been afraid to ask for help. But I mean, again, I can only speak for myself. I don't know. But that's kind of the common thing that I notice. The people that don't ask for help are the people that
00:47:06
Speaker
I don't know, maybe it just comes down to maybe they think they know it best or they're afraid, like you said, of showing their own insecurities. It's a personality thing for me, I think.
00:47:18
Speaker
Teachers, they're performing their craft in their four walls. Like you said, nobody else sees them, unless we're going in to observe them. Where every other profession, I mean, there's people watching. There's other people, you know, that see them. And so they're just used to it. And they know that they're being held accountable. We're here. It's only like when we get a chance to go in, you know, when we to observe. So I don't know.
00:47:43
Speaker
Yeah, I do. I mean, we have a teacher on our staff who's traumatized from her last admin. And so just afraid to do anything wrong. So to open yourself up to peer to peer scrutiny is probably terrifying. But I don't know how to get over it goes back to the mind frames to get everybody in the mind frame of we're all here to work together for a common purpose.
00:48:11
Speaker
and to achieve a common goal. But I think that the walkthroughs, I know what Hadi was saying about thinking, I think the walkthroughs were powerful in that sense, because I think even walking into a teacher's classroom for five minutes, watching them teach, like reading, you know, you pick up on, I really like her energy, or, ooh, you know, she's somebody I would want to come ask.
00:48:33
Speaker
Like there's, and that's something you wouldn't know had you not gone into the room and watched them teach. You know, like I think it was in this podcast too where he talked about, you know, teachers on your staff from like the work room or the lounge, but you don't really know what they are like as teachers. You know, I remember as a teacher, parents would ask the school I was at,
00:48:56
Speaker
um our principal honored teacher requests and so parents would constantly come and say like who do you recommend for next year and i'm like well the whole staff is great but your best bet is to go talk to other parents who have had these teachers because
00:49:07
Speaker
I only know them from happy hour. I know them from the staff lounge. I know them from luncheons, which they're great. And I'm sure they're great at what they do. But like you said, what you do in your four walls is what you do. And so I think walkthroughs are kind of a nice way of maybe opening those doors and making people feel a little more comfortable, like, hey, I kind of like the way that you did that. But maybe that's not somebody that they would have gone to had they not had that opportunity.
00:49:37
Speaker
I was just thinking too, one of the issues we face, everybody faces is building trust. I have to trust that you're going to come in here and you're going to be honest, but you're not going to go like to the neighbor and be like, Oh my gosh, you should have seen. It was just, so it's a trust thing too. And I know personally, I don't trust people personally until, until I get to know you quite well, professionally, I'll trust you until I can't, but it's, it's hard. It's hard to.
00:50:07
Speaker
It's hard to let someone who is a relative stranger in most cases come in and critique your career and your passion. Well, ladies,
00:50:19
Speaker
It's great that the people can actually listen to us have a conversation because we do this more than people can possibly imagine. So the teachers at Thompson, like, this is what's happening. We're sitting here trying to figure out things and talking about the best ways to move forward and to do great things. But I thank you, the people listening, probably thank you just so they could listen to your thoughts. But you know what, in the end,
00:50:47
Speaker
It's all about perspective. That's right. Thank you as always. Appreciate your time.