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Season 3, Episode 23 - Donavan DeBoer
75 Plays1 year ago
Now a Superintendent in South Dakota, Don DeBoer was happy to spend some time on the podcast while the temperatures outside of his home hit -11 and -27 with the wind chill. He started out in Las Vegas 25 years ago on the same day as Robert at the same school, but then took a different path to the top. The two reminisce about the past, talk about leadership, and agree that relationships matter more than anything.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
you
Introduction and Reminiscence
00:00:14
Speaker
Good afternoon. Welcome back to an episode of It's All About Perspective. I am, of course, your host, Robert Hinchliffe. 25 years ago, this dude walked into a library with me on the first day. And for some reason, we hit it off. I don't know if it's because we're both small town kids in Vegas, but we had entirely too much fun for one year. And then he decided he couldn't handle the heat and went back to South Dakota, where he is now a superintendent, Donovan DeBoer.
Weather Contrasts: South Dakota vs Vegas
00:00:42
Speaker
Thanks for being here.
00:00:43
Speaker
Thanks for having me, man. That is 25 years ago. Crazy. It was my wife that drug me back home, by the way. Yeah, but you were going to get in trouble with us too much. It's probably a good thing that you left. She drug us out of the casinos and then... What's the temperature in South Dakota right now? Because it's about 50 in Vegas. Minus 27 degrees right now, wind chill. It's minus 11 degrees, just normal.
00:01:13
Speaker
That's Julie. We had kind of a storm. Do you think, Michelle, your wife ever wishes that she stayed in Vegas just because of that crap? No. She stayed there, I can tell you that.
Teaching Differences and Cultural Insights
00:01:27
Speaker
So you were in Vegas for a year. You taught fifth grade here. We had a lot of fun.
00:01:35
Speaker
When you went back to South Dakota, I don't know if you remember this or not, but like what are now, what are the differences between education in Vegas and education in South Dakota? I mean, yeah, you stick back to that. It's just got me like going down memory lane since I've been texting you the last week or so.
00:01:56
Speaker
Well, first of all, I don't think there's anything different. I mean, kids are kids where you teach them, right? It's just, um, you talk about perspective and perspective is what your, your, your platform
Educational Funding Innovations in Vegas
00:02:07
Speaker
is. And that's really where it comes from. I don't definitely melting pot in Las Vegas, but I grew up on four miles from the reservation in South Dakota. So a lot of my buddies growing up are Native American guys. So, you know, we still have some of those different cultural things, but.
00:02:25
Speaker
Man, you just think about the path that you've been, I went from, so we were down there for a year, and it was a year-round school, and you just told me that they don't even have year-round schools anymore, which is crazy to me, because I just thought that was kind of a thing that would just continue on with all the kids. They found some money in Vegas, huh, to build buildings or what?
00:02:44
Speaker
Well, Allegiant Stadium and the Raiders have really helped out because I don't think a lot, you know, a lot of people want to complain while they're publicly financing, you know, a $2 billion stadium. But a lot of people forget how much revenue that place brings in every year. And, you know, I mean, between the Raiders and the concerts and everything else that goes on there,
00:03:09
Speaker
I attribute that to a lot of revenue that came in.
Challenges in Teacher Recruitment
00:03:12
Speaker
And so then this year, Governor Lombardo decided that he was going to basically fund education fairly well. And I guess it was last year. And now we have I mean, we have money, I have tons of money. But the funny thing is, when you have money, you don't have people.
00:03:29
Speaker
And so when you have people, you don't have money. Um, you know, there's just, I mean, I don't know, are you cause okay. So for the listeners, you're a superintendent now. How do you, how do you recruit people to negative 27 outside? Like who wants to come there and work and how do you find those people? Well, do you guys, you know, when you and I were, I wish when you and I were hired that year, 1999, 2000, if they hired 4,000 people,
Early Teaching Days: Resourcefulness and Creativity
00:03:54
Speaker
4,000 teachers that year, um,
00:03:57
Speaker
My wife and I were both recruited at a job fair. I was hired over the phone and they were like, oh, your wife's a teacher? I said, yes, put her on the phone. Same school. We were offered a job in Las Vegas and we were offered a job at Wake County in North Carolina. I'm a big Duke guy, so it was hard to pass up going to Wake County and being eight miles from Durham, but they wouldn't let us teach in the same school. Of course, you're kids and you don't have any money.
00:04:27
Speaker
We had one vehicle the whole deal, but so we get recruited to go to Las Vegas and we were, I think the salary man was like, still wasn't like great. It was $22,000 or something. We actually, I remember this, we started out at 26060. But wasn't that with like a $4,000 payback loan deal? We were given, but we had to pay it back zero interest and they just kind of came out of your check.
00:04:51
Speaker
I don't remember that you and Michelle might have. I don't, I don't remember that. Um, I just know it was 26 0 6 0. That's, that's all I know. So 26 grand, that was 20 years ago. And then when you start talking about the reason I say this, cause here's my memories of when I was there 20 years, 25 years old, 26 years, 25 years ago, we got there and we're in a year round school. Right.
00:05:14
Speaker
My wife is in a building that's like kindergarten and first grade, not attached to the regular school. The fifth grade teachers, which I was a fifth grade teacher, we were in our own seven little trailer houses. And internet did not exist. There was, we had one computer in our, and I didn't even use it. Like nobody used it as one computer in our little trailer house. Didn't have internet. No textbooks, not a single textbook.
Evolution of Teaching Resources and Education Perception
00:05:42
Speaker
We had a few like little grammar, like off cover grammar books that we pulled for maybe sentences or doing daily grammar or whatever. Um, and no stand, there was no such thing as like standards. This is no child left behind. Remember? It was right when NCLB was starting where this little purple had kind of a book of, these are some things, some, they kind of need to know.
00:06:05
Speaker
There was zero reduction. It was a different time. I think we had a little purple binder that had some things in it, like some essential standards or things of that nature. Three reams of paper, remember? That's what you got. We drove home for a wedding in October or November.
00:06:26
Speaker
And my mom worked for a school district who went downstairs into their central office and grabbed like eight boxes of colored paper. It was like coming back with crap at school. Can we trade for your paper? It was nothing. I mean, I took, I got binders for science experiments from one fifth grade teacher. I got some books from my aunt that was an English teacher. I mean, you didn't, like weeks sat Sunday and created like
00:06:55
Speaker
worksheets and assessments for our students for the week, because there was nothing out there. And you couldn't just Google it and say, Hey, show me some, some worksheets. You certainly couldn't go to chat GPT and say design meal. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, I remember, you know, basically Sunday when we weren't playing football parlays, I remember, you know, you, you,
00:07:22
Speaker
You'd be making your own worksheets, and you would just try to, I mean, you would legit write out, you know, write in expanded form or whatever, and then you'd have to keep it for the next year so you didn't have to do it again. It was a crazy time, man. It was a crazy time. I remember having, I think I started with 30 kids, had as many as 49 at one point in time, just ins and outs, ins and outs.
00:07:47
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five, six, seven kids a month starting in January that didn't speak
Shift in Educational Focus: Methodology vs Programs
00:07:51
Speaker
English. There was no L or ESL programs. It was, I remember one of my students, can I say a student's name out here? I don't think it's around. Oh yeah, yeah. You're fine. No big deal. Now, Chris Valenzuela is his name. I remember him like yesterday. He would interpret for me and that's how we kind of did it. I mean, it was, you learned how to be an educator back then and I,
00:08:13
Speaker
you know, I wouldn't trade it for the world. I just, I wouldn't. So when I come back and see all of the resources that teachers have today, and the complaints that kind of you get once in a while, you're like, man, you don't even know what you're dealing with. Yeah, you're like, so I struggle, sorry, I struggle because, you know, I feel like we had to learn how to teach.
00:08:41
Speaker
We had to learn how to make do with what we had and how to pull groups with what we had. And nowadays I struggle greatly with programs because I don't think it teaches you how to teach. It teaches you how just to follow page by page and I struggle with that. I could not agree with you more. I say this to my teachers and my staff all the time. I am not about programs, I'm about people. And that's where you make your
Teacher Shortages and Recruitment Strategies
00:09:08
Speaker
hey. Now, you go back to the recruiting in South Dakota,
00:09:11
Speaker
We do have a program in South Dakota called Educators Rising. I don't know if you've heard of that, but it's kind of a competition. But it's really about growing your own. The data will tell you that most of the people don't leave outside of 100 miles of their hometown. So you just try to grow your own and try to collect those students that want to be teachers and you push them to it.
00:09:29
Speaker
We have a teacher shortage here. It's a big deal. We're short 450 teachers in the state of South Dakota, which doesn't sound like a lot. You're probably short 4,000 just in Las Vegas. I think it's 2,000. Yeah. I don't think that's stopping. I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon. As a matter of fact, I think it's going to be worse. Our numbers at the college levels are down 100% with people graduating.
00:09:53
Speaker
Well, so much of what I say, though, is I think we eat our own. I mean, if you look, I mean, now, I'm going to ask you why you don't have social media. I'm sure there's a story behind it. But from my story, from my standpoint, you know, on social media, we eat our own. There's so much negativity about the profession and about teaching that why would anybody want to go into it? And then, of course, you know, right now, everybody wants to be a YouTuber or something. But I just don't see it getting any better. You can grow your own all you want.
00:10:22
Speaker
It's just really hard, especially with inflation. I don't know how it is there, but like in Vegas, everything's expensive now. And they've raised the starting salary, which is great, but they got other problems. But I just, you know, I don't know, other than it's just, I just believe teaching is a calling. It just is what it is. But why would you want to be a teacher when all you see is negativity?
00:10:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a part of
Union Strength in Education
00:10:45
Speaker
that. And you say you eat your own. Some of that negativity comes from the inside. A lot of the negativity is from the inside. And I'm with you. You either love doing this job or you don't. And the long and short of it is just get out.
00:11:02
Speaker
If you don't, you shouldn't be there. Yeah. In South Dakota, I don't know if you face this too. There was times when you could hire people, there was tons of people, but now you have to decide, okay, do I really want to get rid of this person or I want to coach them for another year or do I want to continue to help them because there's nobody lined up. You're my dog's barking in the background. Too sorry, you're good.
00:11:35
Speaker
They're golden doodles. The golden doodles are marking it up. The profession is hard. We don't do ourselves any favors in that regard as far as the positivity goes. But it's also very, very difficult. You're dealing with all of the social-emotional problems now. The mental health of the students is more important now than ever. I don't think that it was ever not important. It's just you're starting to realize that it's something you have to address all the time.
00:12:05
Speaker
We're getting more and more and more behavior issues at five and six years old. Parents aren't the easiest to get along with all the time. Not all of them, but just the tougher ones are still tough and they're even tougher now.
Community Relationships and Leadership in Small Towns
00:12:19
Speaker
You know, the thing about teaching is that everybody's, everybody, when you're in education, you're dealing with people's kids. Those people all went to school and they all have kids. So now they think they know how to do your job.
00:12:32
Speaker
And well, I know I went to school. I know how to educate. Well, no, not really. So there's a lot of issues. And then you throw out the fact that I don't know what your base salary is there. We had an initiative about six years ago to raise the salaries for teachers in South Dakota, but our base salary is still $45,000 a year.
00:12:51
Speaker
They just raised ours, well, it was, I think it's 53 now, but the teachers here just got their new contract actually a couple of weeks ago. And really, honestly, nobody knows exactly where they're at anymore because it's all, you know, it's all just misdirection and discombobulated. But even, I mean, 45 in South Dakota is probably equal to 53 in Vegas, though, just with the cost of living, I'm guessing. I would suspect you're probably right, although, you know, the
00:13:20
Speaker
Um, inflation has not stopped. You know, I think COVID did one thing and that maybe that boosted inflation everywhere. Um, I think it is a little less expensive to live here probably. Um, but it's not like they haven't been impacted because inflation went up so fast. Your jobs can't keep up with it. It doesn't matter. I mean, and then we're not the only ones hurting for jobs. And my brother runs seven concrete plants and he can't find drivers or salesmen. Um,
00:13:49
Speaker
McDonald's is hiring for $22 an hour. They can't find people. I don't know. There's a really kind of a workforce issue. So I don't have all the answers to that either. Yeah. And you're in a little bit different position being a superintendent.
00:14:08
Speaker
You, I'm assuming the superintendency is just like it is here. You have to negotiate with teachers and contracts and all that stuff. Again, I'm assuming you can tell me if I'm wrong. I make this argument, like Superintendent Jara in Vegas, you only get so much money and you have to make it go around. And I don't think people inherently trust superintendents just to be honest with you.
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, I would say superintendency at my level, just because we have a thousand kids K-12, which in South Dakota is 20, we have 149 school districts, 22nd largest in South Dakota. Um, so it's not like you're managing tens of thousands of students, maybe like Sioux falls, you know, Sioux falls has 26,000 students and 400,000 people. And that's a little bit.
00:15:04
Speaker
bigger animal, they're more like the PR piece. Um, obviously when you're super through the superintendency, you're, you're, a lot of it is financial. A lot of your decisions are financial. Um, but in small town, South Dakota, I don't know that there's a, I don't know that there's a trust factor to superintendents when it comes to dollars, because they're all kind of spent by the school boards and everybody knows who the school board members are.
00:15:29
Speaker
They go to church with them. They see them downtown. They're in the grocery store. That's a whole different set of issues that we probably deal with in smaller towns than they do in bigger cities. I mean, our board members and myself will run into people. We know about everybody. At least we have families and links or whatever. Does that make it harder the fact that you know, I mean, I'm from a small town too of a thousand people.
00:15:55
Speaker
I often wondered if I was a principal there. Does it make it harder to know that if you make someone mad, you're gonna see them walking down the street? Well, what's difficult, it isn't, it isn't. What's difficult with that is, is you make them mad and they hold grudges for a long time. Small towns. And they know what they're mad about. You know, it could be four years later and you know that person doesn't like you very much, but I don't know that that person can tell you why.
00:16:22
Speaker
Actually, in my career so far, that's happened a number of times where this individual that might be upset about something three or four years later, when their kids are out of school, they come back and go, listen, I was wrong. You're right, it wasn't a big deal. And that has happened a few times, which is kind of nice to hear. It doesn't help you from recovering those five years where you wanted to dodge them out of the way of the supermarket. You know, walk through the different aisle like that after they're there.
00:16:50
Speaker
It is what it is, I guess. It comes with the territory. Yeah, I mean, we were talking, the quickest way to fail is try to make everybody happy. And I can imagine, the difference is, though, in a small town, is if you make one person unhappy, well, they've got an uncle and a cousin and three friends and, you know, very loyal. It's just a different beast, man. Yeah, I think, I think it's like,
00:17:18
Speaker
You know, I choose, this was my first year in this, I'm in a community now, uh, Del Rapids is the name of the town.
Building Strong Educational Relationships
00:17:25
Speaker
I just moved to this school district. I was in a little town in Parker, South Dakota before, for the last nine years as the superintendent. And about 1100 people in Parker, 500 kids K-12. I went to Del Rapids. There's 4,500 people, 1100 kids K-12. So it's double or 65% bigger, you know.
00:17:47
Speaker
So you don't, you still, you still kind of know everybody and see everybody, but in this first year, I've just put a ton of time in with every ball game that's at home. When I traveled to the ball game on the road and I've been to the, to the musicals and the plays and, uh, to oral interp and I go to the morning, you know, the Christmas con, you just go to as many things as you possibly can. You start growing that stack of chips, you know, Vegas.
00:18:17
Speaker
And then when somebody's mad at you, it takes a chip away, but you know, you've built some equity there. And I feel like that, if you do that over and over and over, you can disagree with most rational people. It's the irrational people that I don't really have time for. That goes back to some of the social media stuff. I don't really care about that either. Like the crazy people's, I could care less. They're mad at me, not mad at me, don't mad at me.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about themes in a second. The theme that we used at Thompson last year was relationships over everything. And unfortunately, people don't understand, like you said, stack and chips, your relationships, you have to have them because if you don't, then people don't feel valued. And then when you have to tell them something bad,
00:19:03
Speaker
Well, they know that you care and they know that you're making it for the right reason. So, you know, you and I, we've always been very similar. But, you know, like, yeah, your relationships, like starting the new school, I didn't, you know, I was talking to everybody, what do you need? What do you need? Because you have to build up the trust equity. Otherwise, it's a hard, hard job. Yeah, you're exactly right. It is.
00:19:28
Speaker
I think that one of the frustrating pieces about that, and I've mentored a number of administrators over the years, but I try to get them to realize right off the bat is that, I think you and I were texting about this, nobody cares.
Maintaining Motivation in Education
00:19:43
Speaker
Nobody cares. Work harder. And that's the truth. Now, you have people that are gonna be in your camp, and I mean, I'm not saying that they're not gonna give you a birthday card or they don't feel bad if something happens. What I mean is that when the push
00:19:58
Speaker
When push comes to shove and you're messing with their money or you're messing with their classroom or you're messing with their family, they don't care what you have to say or what you're about. They care about what's best for them, period. And unfortunately, you have to make decisions. This is where my goal, I told you, you can't bagel your way out of this stuff.
Authenticity in Educational Leadership
00:20:20
Speaker
You have to build that equity enough and get people to honestly know that you really do care. The old John Wooden thing, right? Nobody cares what you know until they know how much care.
00:20:29
Speaker
Um, you have to really be genuine in that and people can see through that crap. You know, you know, the fakes just like I do. And I think those relationships are going to be tough. I mean, some of those people don't matter. You're going to have good relationships with, and they're still going to be like the one time you have to tell them, no, they're mad. I'm out of here. Take my ball and go home. Okay. Yes. But most of the time, if you have built up that genuine relationship,
00:20:55
Speaker
Um, it goes a little bit better for you. They can disagree with you. They can be upset for a little bit and then you can move on and, you know, head towards the common goal. But we just, I mean, we're just coming from sports backgrounds, you know, and just, and you can hate your coach or you can hate what your coach says, but in the end, if you know that the coach is trying to get more out of you or make you better, then you listen it and you get off and then you know what you do. You go do what the coach says.
Balancing Student Voice and Authority
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Well, you and I came from that background and that era.
00:21:24
Speaker
My guess is your dad kind of said, listen, I'm telling you what to do. You're going to do it. My dad was notorious for saying, do as I say, not as I do. And I grew up with what the boss tells you to do. You do it. There's no, you know, we've been our own enemies a little bit in education with the whole voice and choice movement, right? We want to give everybody a voice and we got to give everybody a choice. Well, then all of a sudden when it's not something they don't want to do,
00:21:53
Speaker
Now, where's my voice in choice? Well, you don't get a voice in choice in this matter. Just like we don't get a voice in choice with the speed limit at 75. If it's 75, you go 75. That's what it is. You don't try to tell the cop, well, you know, I got this note and it says that I can go 85 today. It don't work now. But you're like, we're again going back to sports.
00:22:19
Speaker
This is why I struggle, I mean, also with programs. When you look at, you know, you're a huge Duke guy, I, of course, like North Carolina.
Diverse Leadership Styles
00:22:28
Speaker
But yeah, I know you're shaking your head. There's one in every Duke. But you know, like, not everybody is made for North Carolina and not everybody is made for Duke. But yeah, in education, we're trying to just pigeonhole them into the same stuff all the time. And I don't understand why leaders,
00:22:49
Speaker
don't understand that. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you on that. You supervise how many principles? Right now. Yeah. I've got one, two, my admin team is six. So I've got an elementary principal, middle school principal, high school principal, special education director, IT director, facilities activities director.
00:23:10
Speaker
And within that, within the principles, the three principles, I'm going to guess all three of them do not have the same leadership styles or the same vision, or maybe they do, maybe you're lucky, but they all have their way and their way might work. Absolutely. What's the old saying, a thousand ways to skin a cat, right? No, they're all very different. Two of them couldn't be more different. I mean, I'm talking oil and water, and they share a building.
00:23:41
Speaker
So that's not always the easiest thing for anybody nor, nor should it be. And that, and that's really kind of the, um, you bring up a good point. Like you, you, I say this all the time. I know how my way is and I think my way is pretty good. I may disagree with your way, but it doesn't mean it's wrong. And I struggle with that a little bit sometimes because, uh, I I'm not a micromanager. Um, that that's for sure.
00:24:11
Speaker
but I am somebody that believes in doing the right thing. And if my people aren't going to do the right thing, then we're gonna have, then I am going to micromanage that piece. Yeah, again, you know, like we're, again, cut from the same
Professional and Caring Teacher Relationships
00:24:24
Speaker
cloth. I don't need to micromanage you, just have outcomes and don't get me on the news and don't get me sued. Other than that, do your job, you know? I don't- Help me help you. I say that. Yes. Help me help.
00:24:39
Speaker
Help me help you, Rod. Come on, Rod. Yeah, I do that all the time, too. But no, it is important. That relationship piece is important. And that makes it hard, too, because you put a lot of stock into people. I've tried to work really hard with a couple of my teachers at times, only to have to go in a different direction. And those are really hard, hard conversations, because for a couple of years, you've maybe
00:25:08
Speaker
you disagree with some of the things they do, but as a person you really care for them and you like them, but you gotta make tough decisions. That's where the relationship piece is hard. That's where it's being people like us, that's where it's hard. Yeah, you know, you being in South Dakota though, the thing about Vegas is if someone doesn't like me, they have to make it through one year and then there's 230 other elementary schools that they can get out. You probably don't have that option in many cases.
00:25:33
Speaker
No, and if they are still in education, they're gonna see me at some point down. There's only 800,000 people in South Dakota, so we kind of know everybody. Yeah, that's true. Just a whole different, I think about, too, thinking about back home.
00:25:48
Speaker
Um, you know, you don't get a job unless someone dies basically, because there's no job openings. Everybody's there assuming they're doing, doing their part. So it's just a different, it's really, you were saying earlier, you know, you have 1100 students. I mean, I almost have that many at Tyrone Thompson next year. And it's just, it's just, it's the same, but it's different, man. It's just this, it's education, but it's different in all areas.
School Themes and Community Engagement
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah. Educating kids and, you know,
00:26:18
Speaker
The only difference for me is that those are K-12, so you're dealing with seniors and kindergartners, and you have K-5, right, as well as K-5? Yeah, K-5. So you talked about your theme last year. So your theme this year is, or the Harry Potter deal, or the kind of your houses, is that every year? Is that something you always do?
00:26:41
Speaker
Yeah, no, the houses is built into the system. So everybody, every family, when they walk in the door, they get a QR code. We know what it is, but they don't. And essentially they watch a video on their phone and then magically they're selected to be in the house of...
00:26:57
Speaker
integrity and so every family gets a house and then they get a t-shirt and then we have basically competitions throughout the year to you know whoever whoever is the most honest you get a point and then they go on a field trip but the houses are built in but you know our themes like we were talking about I do a theme every year this year's theme is live your purpose because last year I was struggling at some times with some things and I just kind of was wondering you know what's what's my purpose and it's weird how
00:27:26
Speaker
It's weird how the themes just pop in there. Two years ago, it was relationships over everything. Coming out of COVID was weird. If you want a challenge, go open a school in the middle of a pandemic. That's a good time. You interview everybody online, and you meet all the kids and parents online, and they don't know you. Try to have a basketball game during COVID. Try to do that. Yeah, so.
00:27:51
Speaker
So anyways, we finally got rolling pretty much last year. Then it was just all about relationships, man. And then this year, what's your purpose? Why are you here? Why are we at this school? So we're living our purpose. I know what next year's is, too. I'm always thinking ahead. I got like 90s. Every time I'm out and about and I see something inspirational, I'm like, ooh, I can do a theme out of that. But it's got to basically be able to be applicable to all staff so they can all buy in. That's kind of my thing. Is there a theme for your staff or staff and kids?
00:28:22
Speaker
So it started as a staff and then I wanted to expand it. And so this year we're starting to expand it out. We just did last week where we were handing out t-shirts to any student or parents that could come up and say, the theme at Tyrone Thompson this year is to live your purpose. So we're starting to expand it now just to get more buy in with the community. They love us. I mean, we're very, 99.99% of the parents are great and they're on board.
00:28:47
Speaker
but it's just getting more buy in. And then next year we're going to get to where it's just because it's like a community wide mantra. It's kind of what we're trying to get to. You know, like I was telling you about a guy named Joe San Filippo, who is in small town, Wisconsin. And he's kind of the same thing. So he talks about how their mascot is the crickets.
00:29:08
Speaker
Yeah, you know, the mighty crickets and he basically says, you know what, like we put crickets on everything because you're trying to get the buy in to the, you know, of the community into your school. And if you get that, well, then you're in good shape.
Parallels Between Coaching and Educational Leadership
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a lot of what you, you talk about going back to our sports, you know, our kind of our roots are athletic and teams and, um,
00:29:33
Speaker
That's, that's probably where I got my, my dad was a coach and I grew up playing everything under the sun and had that ability to do when you're in small towns. But, um, and I was, I was very, I was a very good athlete. I would say average, I was never a superstar. So the team meant a lot to me. And, uh, I think being part of a team is important. Well, I also then, when I moved back to South Dakota, you know, I saw I was coaching and I coached basketball. I mean, I coached a lot of crap, but basketball is kind of my thing. And we're pretty successful.
00:30:02
Speaker
And a lot of it is, you know, you always have, we always had a theme for our team, whether it was, you know, doesn't matter what it was, I mean, 212 degrees one year, you know, we had, and I told you, Lock Your Geese one we had. My favorite one was Think Different, and that was a whole Steve Jobs deal. And we even had the Think Different kind of logo, and then we did the apple of basketball, and that was pretty awesome.
00:30:26
Speaker
Yeah, I've always been on that too. So the second I became superintendent, I just rolled that over into just my school. Now, some of them, like this year was a little bit, I wouldn't say it's this big, huge push. It's a brand new school for me. I'm getting to know everything, but my theme this year was there's something in the orange. So the Quarriers are orange or they're orange and black.
00:30:53
Speaker
And they're a pretty good, they're a well-established school, very good athletically, very good test scores, nice community, very, very affluent. I put them on the above the median line when it comes to finances for most of the students. Now, that doesn't mean we don't have some of our lower economic kids because we do, but so for me, it's like you're coming into a place that they don't need that pick me up. They're all pretty motivated people.
00:31:18
Speaker
But for me, it was just every time I turned around there was, you know, I won a coffee mug that was orange that year. I won a speaker that was orange that year. That stupid Zach Bryan song was, I've never even heard of him before and my kid was playing it downstairs. And I'm like, man, there's just something in the orange around here. And it was a great change for me at the time. And so that was mine. But like I told you, I've had the Fish Philosophy theme once.
00:31:44
Speaker
We built a new school, new elementary school in Parker. First build they've had, big major build that they've had in the district since 1970. But it was their school, stuff was tore up and we had to move and do all this crap. And we were just like, hey, we just got to lean into the curves here. We're going to have some ups and downs. So my principal and I came rolling in on scooters and we played a little Harley music. So we had a good time, right? So it's just,
00:32:13
Speaker
Um, we had the green lights theme one year, Matthew McConaughey actually did a little, um, cameo deal for us and, and introduced the year. So I'm with you. I think things are good. It's kind of brings you together and, uh, promotes you to the community a little bit and lets people know that you care. That's the biggest thing that I think you have going for you in a large city community is you have like me, this small town feel of that. You actually do care. You do want a community. You do want to be part of something and, uh,
00:32:41
Speaker
I think that's why they loved us as Midwesterners coming to Las Vegas 25 years ago, is because we have that. And I remember Mrs. Buck was our principal and I remember her looking at me saying, man, if we could get 100 of you guys, we'd be set. But I think it was that Midwestern value.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, you know, values and work ethic and just, you know, like you're going to do it, you're going to do it right. And then you're going to give it your all or you know what you're going to, Hey, here's something, here's a shocker. You know what you and I do is if we mess up, we take accountability for it. Hey, that's a bad word. That's a really bad word.
Accountability and Blame Dynamics in Education
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's in today's world, you know, I think we're texting about that, you know, it's the it's the whole thing, you know, back in the old days, if the teacher called our parents, it was art, you know, we were going to get it. And now all of a sudden, it's the teacher's fault these days, which I don't know, I think accountability is just a lost art in some cases. And where do you think that comes from? I mean, where do you I
00:33:46
Speaker
Do you, I feel, I do truly feel that some of this stuff is cyclical. Um, my kids, my parents raised me to, you know, that's like, first of all, my parents were raised by the greatest generation of World War II guys. Right. And they had a work ethic and they have accountability and that suit, you know, the baby boomers or whatever they were. So then they have my parents' generation and then they instilled those values on me. And now I'm instilling those values on my
00:34:16
Speaker
on my two kids. I think sometimes some of that stuff is somewhat cyclical. It's my only... Maybe, maybe. I think part of it is participation trophies. I think part of it is we want everybody to feel good about themselves. We don't want you to face any adversity.
00:34:38
Speaker
Right, and so you got that. I think education, you can't just fire someone. I have said repeatedly, if I knew that I could be fired tomorrow and I wouldn't have an income or insurance and my family would not have this stuff, I think a lot of people will do a lot of things differently. Are unions strong there?
00:35:00
Speaker
I have to laugh because it would depend on who you ask. The teachers union, I would say no, personally. I think they stink. My opinion, I think they protect the people that. I mean, is Nevada like a strong union state? Not in education and everything else. Yeah. You know, the culinary union, they will gladly shut down the strip if they want a raise. But in education,
00:35:25
Speaker
you can't strike, which is part of the problem. So I would say the admin union, our guys is great. You know, I think some others could definitely do better, but it depends. Education just doesn't have that union behind it type thing. There's a lot of bark and no bite. You know, they want to say, oh, well, we'll- No, there's no union in South Dakota. Like we're a right to work state and it's just not a big deal. I was offered a superintendent job in,
00:35:53
Speaker
Montana a few years back in Whitefish and going through that process, like they have strong Union State. As a matter of fact, the teachers union negotiates the superintendent's salary. And I'm like, what? That's just some crazy stuff to me. But there was an, I had an interview with the union for an hour and that was just, it was enlightening because I'm not used to that at all.
00:36:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, could you imagine? I mean, guess that's interesting that they would be in charge of your salary if you're the superintendent. I was looking right now, hey, it's only negative four in white face right now, so you know. Yeah, you go on the slopes over there. What it means is you get a base, they give you X month dollars, so there's this base salary.
00:36:38
Speaker
And then basically, you get exactly what the teachers negotiate for their race. So if they get 4%, then you get 4%. And that's kind of how it goes. You don't have to see the table. Yeah. So I have never once, well, I mean, people always, people I've had some people say, you should be superintendent. And I start laughing. I just, I don't ever, maybe for like 0.3 seconds ever thought about being a superintendent. Why did you choose that path?
00:37:07
Speaker
Um, I think it goes back to just the, it's the, it's the ultimate leadership position in our field.
Superintendent's Motivations and Experiences
00:37:19
Speaker
Um, superintendency in, in most school districts in South Dakota are not what they are in Las Vegas and Kansas city and Cincinnati. And I mean, I, uh,
00:37:32
Speaker
One of the reasons that I did not want to go to this new position is because it was twice as big.
00:37:41
Speaker
My other superintendent job, I was also the elementary principal for eight of those nine years. I was an activities director. I was a transportation director. I'm still the special education. I was a special education director. You have multiple hats. I know every single one of those kids. And the reason we got into this as kids, and I did not want to get further away from kids, it was a great opportunity. When I went to Del Rapids, it's twice as big. I was nervous about getting further away from the kids.
00:38:10
Speaker
My central office is in the high school. And the high school and the middle school are connected. So I'm out and about talking to kids all day long. So I get to keep that relationship with those kids. But it's the ultimate leadership position. I feel like I know the way a school should work and be ran in a district. And I wanted that opportunity. And yeah, so I just took a hold
00:38:38
Speaker
Well, like you said, my district as a whole is basically the same size as your elementary school. So. Yeah,
Career Choices in Education
00:38:45
Speaker
yeah. Vegas has a whole different set of chops, set of rules, set of demands than I have in this school, you know. Yeah, I see your point. I mean, my brother will text me every now and then, he'll be like, the superintendent job's open. And I'm like, ah. So every now and then I'll think about going back home just because
00:39:06
Speaker
You know, in a small town, you are the principal and the superintendent. You get to do it all. But the thing that scares me is I don't know anything about ordering food. I don't know anything about transportation. I mean, I'll drive the bus if I have to, but it's the things that I don't know. I think they keep me out of it. Well, you got people to do that. That's one thing that was for this one was really refreshing.
00:39:27
Speaker
First, first day on the job here, I've got, I said, I'm asking for things, blah, blah, blah. And my assistant's like, well, so-and-so will do that for you. And so-and-so will do that for you. And so-and-so, I'm like, I'm not used to having people do stuff. I'm used to doing it all. Matter of fact, my, my secretary and I joked in Parker, I was, I didn't have a PhD or an EDD. I had a BOE, which was boss of everything. You pretty much did everything.
00:39:52
Speaker
But again, that's, that's how we were raised though, you know, you just like, someone needs help, you go do it. And I'll be honest with you, if I was going to stay in education, to make any type of money whatsoever, you had to work up the ladder and become a principal. And, and the next thing is superintendent, like you just, if you're going to make any significant dollars at all to be able to kind of live the way you want to live, it's either get out or go up into the leadership.
00:40:19
Speaker
Well, sure. I mean, we all want to have more and grow more. All right, so let's just say that you just hired a new elementary school principal for your area. What's your best piece of advice for them coming in? Oh, man. I would go back to exactly what we've been talking about.
Advice for New Principals
00:40:45
Speaker
First of all, nobody really cares how smart you are and cares what you know. You have to start building relationships right away. Learn the kids' names and try to figure out where the families are from. Get to know your staff. Staff is important to get in your camp, but I also think that you have to be pretty strong.
00:41:12
Speaker
I am not, I'm a relationship guy, but I'm not a pushover. I believe in, I believe totally in preserving people's dignity, but you're going to do things the right way. I'm not a yeller and a screamer. I could be, I can be. Once upon a time I was.
00:41:32
Speaker
But 25 years ago. Yeah, I mean, a lot of time I was just that. I had a big huge temper. I still do. I just have learned to kind of embrace that. But yeah, I think you've got to have a plan and a goal for your school. And you've got to put it together and stick to that. I'm in the new school. So we're on, just long story short,
00:41:59
Speaker
Del Rapids School District that I'm at right now, one of the biggest things that has been something my high school principals wanted to do is change their schedule. We have what is called a block schedule. It's like 90 minute blocks. But the truth of the matter is it isn't. We have over the years have had to adapt that so much that we actually have two thirds of our blocks have been divided up into 45 minute, what they're calling skinnies.
00:42:24
Speaker
Well, my high school principal wants to get away from the block. And in order to do that, we register kids in March for high school. So we have to work through this process, take it to the board. Well, there's a handful of people that are up in arms and just mad and the kids think they're mad because kids think they know and they don't know anything about anything until you tell them. Because I talk to my kids and go, hey, how would you guys like to sit in biology for 90 minutes? And both my kids are like, no way. But our kids are.
00:42:48
Speaker
Just we're going to have twice as much homework. It was just not used to it, right? The last thing I want to do is come into a new district and have to do anything even remotely controversial, although I wouldn't call this controversial. But it needs to be done. And it's not the easy thing to do, but it needs to be done. And if you do it the right way and you go through the process and people are going to be upset, but you have to make those decisions. You said you can't lead from the fence. You have to make decisions. You have to have a have a goal in mind and an idea in mind.
00:43:17
Speaker
you move forward. So principal relationships, get to know your staff, know your students and have a goal or plan
Balancing Future Planning and Present Moment
00:43:24
Speaker
where you want to go. Yeah, I think a plan is important. You know, like I, I know what I'm doing. I mean, like 90% of next year is already planned. You know, I know where we, like too many people I think can't look further than like next week. And I don't understand that you need to have a plan. I mean,
00:43:42
Speaker
That frustrates me because again, I see so many. Right. There's a balancing act to, well, I'm forced to because like I have next year's calendar has to be approved at the next board meeting. So you're forced to kind of look ahead, but you also have to live in the moment and be present in the moment, or you're going to have things pass you by. Um, is there, you know, like your own, your own girls, um,
00:44:04
Speaker
Don't work so hard that you don't have any memories because that's all you have at the end is memories. Yeah. Well, you know, I always say don't get so busy earning a living. You forget to live your life. Right. Exactly. Yeah. There's 10 years that I was super guilty of that.
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm right now, you know, I mean, they're teenagers, they don't want to be around dad hardly at all. So it's, it's kind of a, you know, they'd rather be around their boyfriends and stuff. So it gives me some freedom. But, but you know, now that we're getting, I think we're getting older too, or you've always been pretty good about this, but you get older and you realize time's way more important than anything else. And then before you know it, we're, you know, sitting on a rocket chair. Yeah.
00:44:43
Speaker
When we lost our youngest son, I know that I just threw myself into just what I was doing and lost about 10 years there. Just go back and have tremendous guilt, but you also wouldn't necessarily change it. I'm in all the family pictures, so I must not have missed too much. But maybe it's just that our memories are bad. We were there and we loved it. I know we loved it, but we just can't remember shit because we're old now. I wouldn't change it. I was coaching basketball then. We were a really successful number of state tournaments.
00:45:12
Speaker
championship games and threw my life into that. And yeah, I was one of the biggest pieces I moved back from Vegas was to get into that, you know, that kind of feel.
Work-Life Balance and Memory Making
00:45:25
Speaker
I can't, I can't remember the guy's name. There's a guy who took over a football program in Memphis and started, started this big movement and he was just getting things turned around.
00:45:38
Speaker
And he decided that he had to leave coaching because his kids were growing up too fast. And they said, they basically said, well, dad, the people that you're leaving need you. And that was his basic, his slap in the face that his own kids knew the other kids needed him, which means he needed to spend more time with his kids too. I can't remember what that's called, dang of it. But he actually, they made a documentary out of it.
00:46:07
Speaker
Um, cause he, he was in a tough part of Memphis and, uh, and managed to turn around and then, you know, did a lot of good things for the community. So what, uh, what's next in your mind? You just stay there until you retire or what? I don't know about that. Um, but we can retire at rule of 85. So, you know, technically I've got about what eight and a half years to go and I can retire. I won't. Um, I think there was one more step in my journey, probably.
00:46:33
Speaker
If I, I could easily end my career in Del Rapids. It's a great community. Um, we've never built a house before. We're doing that now. We just bought, uh, three acres out of town and we have a bunch of toys, not to be sound like a jerk, but we do, we have a couple more cycles and a ranger and some crap. So we're actually building a shelf. So you ever heard of a shelf? So basically it's like a slab on grade house, but it's got smaller living quarters and a huge shop garage. Um,
00:47:04
Speaker
Our kids are older and they're kind of be out the door and we really don't. I mean, we're, we're, we have a upstairs downstairs, four bedrooms, which I mean, we're literally in three rooms, our bedroom, the living room, the kitchen, and that's about it, you know? So we just realized this is kind of a better thing. We've always wanted to live out of town. We have a couple of dogs. So yeah, it's a great, great school, great community. My wife's Michelle's an instructional coach in Harrisburg, South Dakota. So she drives about 20 minutes to school. So she teaches teachers is what she does. So.
00:47:33
Speaker
But she doesn't she doesn't drive in that weather though. Yeah, she drove today. Did you know me? Could you imagine? Could you imagine Vegas people walking out to their car in negative negative 10 and having to drive having to drive 20 minutes to school right now they'd be like what in the world
Small-Town Education Dynamics
00:47:54
Speaker
You know, COVID, everybody from California thought they were going to come here and buy our property and raise the prices of which they did. One winter and they're like, we're out of here. We don't care what your governor said. It's freezing, Robert. I saw a bumper sticker once that said, 40 below, it keeps the riffraff out. That's true. Too fun, man. Let's say that's probably, if I had the next step goal, I'm definitely kind of a five year guy.
00:48:24
Speaker
I'm committing really strong five years at Del Rapids and work my tail off and It's a great community and if they will have me for five more I probably stay five more but there's opportunities In South Dakota, the double A is kind of the biggest classes. Those are your your Sioux Falls Rapid City's capital C Pier Those are your bigger towns. That'd be the next jump. Maybe if I would go but
00:48:50
Speaker
I don't know. I kind of like where I'm at. Like I said, if I got much bigger, it would take me away from the kids a little more. And that's not necessarily what I want to do. And we're happy. We're happy. We're comfortable. We don't need a ton of stuff. We got enough money to do what we want to do. Yeah, you're going to be stuck because you got eight years left. I've found after six or seven people start tuning you out.
00:49:15
Speaker
Yeah, so you know, you're gonna have that that would hopefully I can get I've got anywhere from I've got probably got four and a half left. Hopefully I can keep keep them motivated to where they aren't like, this guy just moving on to a different building. No, no, I'll be well, I mean, we can reach I can retire at 52. Okay, so you know, I mean, we're tell you this man, but we're in our late 40s now.
00:49:39
Speaker
In South Dakota, you have to be 55. The minimum is 55. Rule of 85 is years of experience and your age. Okay, yeah. So Vegas is 30 years, but for us, when we started, it's 30 years. I know we started this conversation this way. Maybe that's how we ended, but I cannot tell you how important it was for us to start the way we started.
Early Teaching Resourcefulness Reflection
00:50:03
Speaker
We really had to learn how to teach. Yeah.
00:50:09
Speaker
Download a thing and and don't go to Google and here's all your million like I have teachers that freak out if they don't have you know, the second teachers edition of the 17 books of of their language arts curriculum that has writing and Reading and English and it's all encompassing and has the ELL portion and the special education recommendations Like they'll freak out if they don't have one of those things. We had nothing
00:50:40
Speaker
And I don't think people understand that nothing had nothing. Everything we got, we went and found. So full circle, which is nuts about you and I in how similar just be, I mean, we haven't seen each other for years and you just pick up like it was like, I was not, I'm not this crazy wacko Harry Potter person, right? I'm not like wearing the cape, the school and all that stuff. But.
00:51:07
Speaker
I will say that Harry Potter saved, saved me as an educator because I came to CH Decker elementary school and had all these kids and the melting pot of kids and different cultures and the kids that didn't speak English as well, or not at all, or, or, or gang, you know, we're running around on the gang side of life. I didn't experience my life like just like anarchy.
00:51:31
Speaker
And Harry Potter came out, the very first book came out that year. Maybe book two came out during, one was out and then two came out. Well, I started reading that to my kids and they were like, they listened to every single word and loved it. And that became my, okay, here's what we're going to do today. And I will reward you with a chapter of the book. And, um,
00:51:53
Speaker
Thank God book number two came out because I lost to me that year. But it saved my career because I don't know, I don't know where it would have been because it was tough, man. It was some tough sled in those first few weeks. It was tough, you know, because we were on track too. So we had to get through the first three weeks and then we had a break. Yeah, same track. Yeah, it was, you know, there's a lot of things that we did that we probably would never want any teachers to even think about doing.
00:52:23
Speaker
Well, we also, you know, Kovac and I put that little basketball deal together. Remember, we made those t-shirts and then we ironed those shirts just because we, because we figured out a way to kind of get them with control and Mrs. Buck rewarded us with giving us all the kids that had problems. It's like, holy smokes. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it was just a different time, man. It was a different time. And then, you know, us being males, we got, you know, we got some difficult kids that just needed male role models and
00:52:51
Speaker
Yeah. I remember this memory just popped in there, but during March Madness, I'm pretty sure you came in my room while I was teaching and we watched basketball and I don't remember the game, but I remember someone hitting a shot to win and our brackets were like screwed. You were upset about that. They were really good times and they were really tough and I don't even know what
00:53:21
Speaker
You threw a teacher, I mean remember we were 21, we were 22. 22. Never taught our own classrooms before. Well no, we came from such small towns that had nothing like this. We were a 22 year old kid from South Dakota into Vegas right now and do what I had to do. They would look at you like what, how did we ever have teachers after that?
00:53:44
Speaker
I mean, would survive that? They wouldn't. The 22-year-olds now, I don't think they would. They would walk out within the first few weeks, call it good. She got my hands stabbed with a pencil. It was crazy tough. It was just nuts. It was, man. But we wouldn't trade it for anything, though. And you figured it out. I think that being on track two saved me too a little bit because I walked in there just being Mr. Nice Guy from South Dakota. I thought I would turn into a jerk, but it was like, OK.
00:54:13
Speaker
Reset, because those first three weeks were. Yeah, for sure, man. Yeah, it was good. It was a good time. Social media thing, I'll tell you, my biggest thing is I'm, I would say that I'm not, I'm an open book when it comes to like you, my buddies and people that I know, but outside of that, I'm pretty private. And some of that stuff, you just never know where it's
Basketball Coaching Experiences
00:54:34
Speaker
going to land. And I really, it really started with coaching.
00:54:40
Speaker
As a basketball coach in South Dakota, you're probably the most popular person in that community. Basketball is huge in South Dakota and you're known because you're in the newspaper every single day and you're on the news. And like in Rapid City when I was there, it was just constant, constant, constant. So if anything popped up, uh, I think I had Facebook for like two days. This is back in 2000 and 2009. I think I had it for like two days.
00:55:08
Speaker
And somebody, somehow there was a picture on me at the river with a beer in my hand or something. And I'm like, how, I didn't even put a picture out there. How the hell is this? You know, so I, I'm not doing this crap. So I got out of there. You're smart though. I don't have, so I have Snapchat just cause my kids, like my son won't text me, but I'll snap him and he'll answer like that. Like, would you just send me a damn text message? I know you're around, you know? So I have that, um,
00:55:37
Speaker
I had Twitter for a long time, um, because I would follow coaches and I, you know, teacher educators, coaches, um, pick up lesson plans and practice plans and all that stuff. But man, that thing got so nuts politically after early three, probably just before COVID, but the COVID deal, the Floyd deal in Minneapolis, and then our governor's nuts and you know, the whole, everybody, all the right wing people on the left wing, they just went crazy. I'm like,
00:56:04
Speaker
I have so many other things I can waste my time on. So I just got off with all. Yeah, I mean, there's probably many of us like when I retire someday, assuming I can.
Social Media's Role in Education
00:56:14
Speaker
get to where it's just basically being the kids. But you know, like, I think it's hard. Well, I mean, if you have a podcast, you have to have it just because it's so easy to advertise. But yeah, there's so much negativity. I got sucked into it a little bit a few years ago. And then now I just I only post positive stuff, man, I'm just gonna post positive things. I am not this hater of all social media. I think it's I think there's a positive purpose for it. I just
00:56:44
Speaker
Like, we have it for our school district. I just don't need it personally. My wife mods her stuff. Another thing that happened to me is back in the day when I first started coaching was when, you know, really the like 2002 three ish, when, um, online newspaper articles kind of started coming up. So there was always ball games. Well, then they started letting people comment after games and it just became a bash fest. And they just bashed every little decision that anybody made on there.
00:57:13
Speaker
And I read it the first few weeks and it just, it bothered me. And I realized that I was like, I'm just not going to read this crap. And I didn't read it. And guess what? It didn't bother me. It's just didn't bother me because I don't care. I'm not reading, but you know, and I don't know why reading it bothers me anymore. I know it's stuff that's still out there, but I think it's just as easier just to ignore it all and not be part of it for me anyway. So I just, I just don't get out there.
00:57:41
Speaker
Dabo Sweeney had the best thing though. Somebody asked him about it and he said, you know, he's talking about his friends and acquaintances. He said, there's a few people that I'll take advice from. And if I take advice from them, I'll take criticism from them. But the people that I wouldn't even waste a breath on to take advice from, I could really care less what they criticize. And I'm like, that's a really good way to take it, to look at it, you know.
00:58:05
Speaker
Well, man, I appreciate it. It's been an hour. It goes by
Conclusion and Future Invitations
00:58:08
Speaker
fast. I'm going to wrap it up. But I appreciate your insights. Good to catch up with you. And I mean, you're always welcome back if you want to come talk more education. I think you should do one where you get all of us back that started that year. Shared tons of stories. We have to be edited. I got some about that new one that's an attorney now. I've got some great stories about him.
00:58:33
Speaker
Yeah, I'll see if I can get COVAC on. I'll try to set it up, but I'll keep in contact with you. It'll be kind of fun. I got your number now, and you've got mine. So let's stay in touch. I think you're doing a great job. And congratulations on the books and the school. Thanks, man. You're kicking ass over there for showing the way that's supposed to be done. Likewise, you're doing well in South Dakota. The only thing that I have on you, since you're actually a superintendent, I'm a principal, is that, like I said, it's 50 degrees here, and I'm going to go stand outside in just a second.
00:59:01
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's minus 30 here. I'm going to try to push one little bit of snow, not freezing my fingers off. Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate it. In the end, no matter where you stand, whether it's South Dakota or Vegas, in the end, it's all about perspectives. Thank you very much, sir. Good one, man. Appreciate it.