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Season 3, Episode 18 - Dr. Brad Johnson
81 Plays2 years ago
Co-author of "Building Dynamic Teamwork in Schools" with Robert (which is now available on Amazon), educational guru and motivational speaker Dr. Brad Johnson enters the podcast to discuss leadership within schools. His vast knowledge of how to put teachers first and lead people in a positive manner through inter-relational skills is critical to getting the best out of the people in the building. The author of 15+ books takes the time to share his insight into various topics and provides a reminder that education is always about relationships.
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Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Brad Johnson
00:00:09
Speaker
Good afternoon and welcome back to another episode of It's All About Perspective. I was blessed a few years ago to meet the guest today, and he has been nothing but kind to me and very supportive of which I greatly appreciate and tell him all the time how much I appreciate him. He is the author of over 15 books, or soon to be over, constantly writing. He's number 29 guru in education, although I know he's shooting for number one.
00:00:36
Speaker
And he's just a fabulous motivational speaker and someone I am very thankful to have met. Dr. Brad Johnson, how are you today?
School Pressures and Assessments
00:00:44
Speaker
I'm doing fantastic. How are you doing today? I'm hanging in there like we were talking before. It was a busy day today. There's always something going on in schools. Especially this time of year, the sprint from Thanksgiving to Christmas is
00:01:02
Speaker
Brilliant tips. It is. And then right now in Clark County, we're doing what's called map testing, where we basically see if the kids are growing, which I know you might have some feelings on assessments per se, but it's what we use here. So we're trying to make sure kids are growing. So you got the added pressure of trying to knock those out and then just the day-to-day life. It's a busy time.
00:01:29
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, we, I think we know how I feel about those, but especially like this time of year when probably that's the last thing on students minds and probably the teacher's minds too, really. You know, I know it's, I guess they call it a necessary evil. I don't know how necessary, but you got to do what you got to do.
00:01:52
Speaker
Right, right, you know, and it's kind of just the one way that we can make sure that kids are learning commiserate to their peers. I don't know that there's really a great way to do it. I certainly am not a fan of aspects per se either. But I guess this is the system that we have. So you, you have written many, many books, and I, you know, we've talked a few times
Inspiration from Experience
00:02:14
Speaker
Where do you get your ideas from? For me, things just hit me. I'm just walking along and then boom, I have an idea. But you've written over 15 books and I know that you have two more waiting in the wings. Where do your ideas come from? I wish I could say inspiration. Sometimes I think that's true. Honestly, I just reflect back on my experiences as a teacher and as an administrator.
00:02:43
Speaker
and think, you know, what do I wish I had been told or wish I was able to read or learn? And I think that kind of guides some of it because I guess a lot of people tend to write like in a certain, even like within education, they just have certain themes or areas and mine are kind of all over the place, but it really is because, you know, you think about when I talk about teachers,
00:03:11
Speaker
You know, it's such a, you know, I always laugh in the little heart thing I make just a teacher, but it shows all the roles that they play, all the roles that they have. And so to me, there's a lot of different angles that you can pursue in helping teachers and administrators too, really, to be, you know, more effective or just sometimes, you know, with some of the books, just to kind of inspire them and motivate them to keep going.
00:03:39
Speaker
So, but it really is, you know, I just think back, you know, as a teacher, you know, what was some areas that I might have need help, or when I saw teachers that struggle, what was it and what, you know, could benefit them, I guess. So, hopefully it fills needs, I guess, is, I guess, the best way to put it. Yeah, I mean, I would say, based upon your success, that you've done a good job of that.
00:04:04
Speaker
I'm curious. So my book that I wrote is all about
Journey to Writing
00:04:07
Speaker
perspective. I was sitting at Wet and Wild with my wife complaining and I'm like, I'm just going to write a book and see if I can make some change. Where was your first book and how did it all come about? What made you think I'm going to write a book? When I went through my doctoral program and like working on my dissertation, I was
00:04:32
Speaker
Because I always joke if there was, like in high school, when they have those superlatives, if there was one that would have been for someone that you would guarantee would never write a book, it would have been me. So they'll probably like going to college and getting
00:04:51
Speaker
Especially my PhD probably would have been one too. But when I got to that level and was able to work through that, I realized that, man, it's just about perseverance. And so I share all the time. And we talked about, I feel like everybody has a book in them.
00:05:14
Speaker
And so when I was doing that and writing it, I was like, you know, if I can write a dissertation, then surely I can write a book. And obviously it needs to not be as boring as a dissertation. And then I had a good friend that I taught with, her name was Tammy McElroy, and I share stories about her a lot because she was kind of a mentor to me.
00:05:39
Speaker
as a teacher she was just man she was she was the best teacher i've ever seen in 30 years of education just powerful and amazing and just i knew that so the first book we wrote together was was called the edutainer because she was she was like an entertainer in the classroom but
00:06:00
Speaker
Man, she was assertive. She had rules. She, you know, you just didn't mess around with her, but she made it fun. And so she was like a mix of all the best. If you can think of all the best attributes of teachers and mix them together, it was her.
00:06:15
Speaker
And so I was like, man, that's who I need to write a book with. And so that's kind of how that began was, man, if I can write a dissertation, then surely I can at least write something hopefully a little bit more enjoyable than that research. And then of course with her, we combined for that. And I really, at the time, and you might've felt this way too, with the first book I was like,
00:06:43
Speaker
you know, I think it's kind of a bucket list thing, you know, like, man, you know, I want to write a book and so I write it and that's it. But because part of it was I was like, you know, when I write this book, I'm like, you know, that's really the only ideal habit, you know, can't really I never would have dreamt writing two or three or especially, you know, 15 or 17. I really thought that would be the one. But, you know, kind of like I was just sharing after I finished it, I'm like, you know, just thinking about
00:07:13
Speaker
you know, different things that come up in teaching and areas of need or whatever. And I was like, you know, maybe I can, and I do, I like to, I love reading, I love books. I got that from my mother and my father.
00:07:26
Speaker
you know, just a love for reading. So I've always, you know, that's why my dissertation was pretty easy, because I just love reading anyway and research, etc. So, but I was just like, you know, after the first one, I was like, well, maybe I can do a second one. Even now I'm like, I just, man, I don't think I can think of another one. And then, you know,
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny how like that just, you know, now, I mean, thanks to you largely. You know, now I just think of an idea and I'm like, Oh, I can I can make this one work and, and you keep going. But you know, like, again, I'm fairly new to the game and starting out and I was lucky enough again to, to have you come to Thompson and, and help me out. But how, you know, when you first got started,
00:08:12
Speaker
How many publishers did you have to go through or how was that process? Because I know, like I said, I got lucky, but a lot of people don't, so they have to persevere for sure, but how was your journey with that?
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't easy. But I have, you know, one of the things when when I share with teachers about, you know, and it's funny, because like, especially this last year, being listed as one of the top gurus, which, you know, I never would have dreamt of something like that, and still, you know, kind of don't believe, but like you said, like my competitiveness, I want to be number one at some point. But, you know, it was,
00:08:59
Speaker
What was your question? Starting out, starting out. You cut this out. Starting out, it's so hard to get started and to find a problem because that'll take you on. All right, so take two here. Thank you. She may or may not. Accidents happen. It kind of makes it more authentic, I think, to me.
00:09:21
Speaker
Well, I did the talking and my mind closes down. I forget what I was talking about. It was tough. It was the whole mindset thing. It's easy to get down or maybe even give up. I share that with teachers all the time. If there's something you want to do, yeah, you may fail once, you may fail twice. My thing was I had a preset.
00:09:47
Speaker
I, you know, I wasn't going into it blind and like, Oh, you know, this is so good. I'm going to get a contract right away or whatever. I figured just from reading and, you know, hearing other people's journeys and stuff that, you know, I was in for, you know, a failure and let down and, uh, wasn't disappointed. Got a few, but in my mind, I was like, you know, right. 12.
00:10:12
Speaker
you know, 12 rejections. I was like, so, you know, the first one, the first two didn't bother me a little bit, you know, they're stuck a little, you know, this just isn't for us. They try to be nice, but, you know, it's kind of like the whole teacher evaluation.
00:10:27
Speaker
They know what you're saying. So I got that first couple of rejection letters and it stung a little, but I was like, hey, we're not to that number yet. So it was probably about four or five until I got the acceptance. But in my mind though, I had that number. I wasn't going to give up. So one of the things I share all the time is,
00:10:52
Speaker
What's what's that number that you're willing to fail or what if you knew you were only 10 failures away from your ultimate success you know that really should hopefully change someone's mindset but that really was was it you know wasn't like oh man if I get you know if they don't.
00:11:12
Speaker
If I get one or two rejections, then I know it's not meant to be. That wasn't my mindset. It was, you know, let's get to 12, and then maybe we'll make some adjustments. But, you know, and then maybe at 12, I do rethink it. But, yeah, the first few stung, but I was like, you know, I had that goal way, you know, much more than that. And so probably about the after the fourth or fifth one was, you know, I got it. And then, you know, once you kind of get your foot in the door there, if it, you know,
00:11:41
Speaker
has any amount of success, then it opens the door wide open for you. Sure.
Leadership Philosophy
00:11:50
Speaker
Dr. Johnson was kind enough to ask me to co-author a book, Building Dynamic Teamworks in Schools.
00:11:56
Speaker
I personally, from my side, I felt like it went pretty easy and pretty smooth. I don't know if you agree or not, but you're nodding, which is great. What part of the writing process do you enjoy the most? For me, I just like to get my ideas out and then I'm not really a huge fan of editing, but what part do you enjoy the most? Yeah, I won't say how bad of a writer I am.
00:12:21
Speaker
But I do love to, yeah, me, it's just, it's the ideas that's getting the information down. I'm terrible at the edit. But I, you know, I tell people all the time, that's why the publisher has editors. That's not my job. But yeah, just getting the thoughts down and in a way that, you know, I'm trying to express it and hopefully it comes across the way that I'm trying to articulate it. But yeah, I think it went really well.
00:12:48
Speaker
I think I've done enough at this point that you know once I kind of know you know have just kind of a framework because I have people all the time I ask me about you know in fact a lot of times um when I go speak you know someone there's wanting to write a book and I'm always happy to you know I'll share what I can because I remember the journey so um but it's like you know it's just um
00:13:19
Speaker
I don't tell them to write like me because I don't really do it right. You know, a lot of people sit down and make this great outline and, you know, just know how everything. And me, it's kind of like, like you said, I have this idea and I just kind of sit down and just start writing. And, you know, I am getting a little better though with doing kind of an outline or I just call it a framework for it.
00:13:43
Speaker
But yeah, I'm sure there's people that are much better technical riders than me, for sure. But I think too, just the more you ride, the better you get, just like anything else. So hopefully, you know, I'm finally, hopefully figuring it out a little bit.
00:14:03
Speaker
Well, if you aren't, I don't know who it is. When did you, I'm assuming I'm making a jump here, either Principal Bootcamp or Dear Teacher are probably your most popular books. But when did you know, or when did you think like, wow, I got something here? You know, was it, you know, what point in this journey did you think, oh, this is good, I'm making an impact? It was actually a book before those called Putting Teachers First.
00:14:33
Speaker
And I had very little following on social media, like everybody else, just trying to grow.
00:14:43
Speaker
But the book just really resonated with people and especially administrators. And so, you know, they would read the book and then invite me to come speak to, you know, like a principal group or, you know, conference or whatever. So it really started more with administrator level for them, just kind of me helping them understand the importance of the teacher.
00:15:09
Speaker
you know, because everybody's focus is always the student. But man, you know, for the administrators, it really is. And I know you do a good job of this is, you know, you got to take care of the teachers, they're going to take care of the students. And so if your focus is on the teachers, then man, you're just you're going to create a much better
00:15:30
Speaker
Um, you know, environment and culture. And so that's why I just, I was like, that's gotta be the title, putting teachers first, because that really should be the job of the administrator. And I get pushed back sometimes, you know, there's a lot of old school people that, you know, it's about the kids and all this. And I'm like, but you know, it's not about.
00:15:47
Speaker
important, you know, yeah, the child is the key, but it's about your priority as an administrator. And again, it goes back to, and like I said, you do it really well. It's one of the things that, you know, I saw when I visited your school is, man, if you'll take care of those teachers, man, they'll do anything for you and they'll do anything for those students. Right. And that's the whole idea. You know, you, Richard Branson, you take care of your
00:16:12
Speaker
your employees, they take care of the clients. I often ask myself the question, and I don't know if you have an answer to it. You said you get pushback, but why, goodness, why? Why is that so hard? I think personally that you might agree or disagree. It comes down to one word, which is control.
00:16:29
Speaker
Why do admin feel like they have to just control teachers so much rather than let them flourish and be amazing and then work through the problems if they happen? Well, I think there's two problems and the big problem isn't really the administrator's fault, but it's just it's our actual leadership programs.
00:16:54
Speaker
they really are based on being a manager, not a leader. And so most of our people that are in administrative or leadership roles aren't really trained to be a leader.
Challenges in Leadership
00:17:06
Speaker
And so, you know, one of the things I like to share with principals and administrators school level or district level two is that
00:17:15
Speaker
You know, even in our programs like our leadership programs at the college level, especially not just in education, but even in business, they're really built on what's called a transactional leadership model that the carrot in the stick, you know, reward and punishment.
00:17:32
Speaker
And so the problem with that in schools is, you know, that might work if you are, you know, in a profession with like unskilled workers that, you know, and even then that's not the most effective way, but that's just, you know, when we, the industrial revolution of people going into factories to work, that was the standard and that's still kind of the standard today. And so administrators aren't really taught to be leaders.
00:18:00
Speaker
And so, you know, that's one of the places that start. So we don't do a real good job of that in at the university level of preparing them for that. And then I think a big part of it is because they, you know, I like to say that.
00:18:16
Speaker
Just because people move into a leadership role doesn't mean they're a leader. So it isn't even about the preparation, it's about their experience as well. And so, you know, when you move into that role, it's kind of almost like the imposter syndrome a little bit. If you don't feel fully competent and confident in what you do, you're more likely to be a person that controls.
00:18:38
Speaker
because that's the only way that you feel like that you can run the school basically. I don't want to use the word control again to control the school, but that really is often the reality. It sets up an environment where teachers are allowed to flourish and really grow.
00:19:03
Speaker
Because of that, and I think part of that too with the principles with the control thing is because, you know, there is a lot of pressure, especially on school level administrators, you know, you got to get test scores up or you got to do this and they're rotated so much. I mean, the average.
00:19:18
Speaker
It's life expectancy or career expectancy of a principal in a school is only about three years, three to four years. So, you know, and some, some schools, I mean, they rotate principals every year and not just because they want to make changes, but because they need to, to get people out of certain roles. But it's, you know,
00:19:38
Speaker
In most situations, it's rare to have a principal that's in a school for five, six, eight years. What you see in those schools usually is a principal that understands how to build relationships, and they really aren't the one to control with the stick, but more with the carrot, so to speak.
00:19:57
Speaker
And that just makes a big difference. But I think, you know, part of that, especially with the younger or newer administrators, is that pressure on them to perform. And what they don't understand, though, is that, man,
00:20:10
Speaker
All you have to do is take the time to build those relationships and get your staff on your side, and they will do more than you could ever make them do. I mean, it's kind of like with the students, and I never understood why administrators can't make this connection, but we're always about build those relationships with the students, build those relationships with the students. Well, guess what?
00:20:30
Speaker
build those relationships with your staff, you know, your teachers, your bus drivers, your custodians, your cafeteria workers, build those relationships. Man, they will do anything for you then.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, it's a it's a constant challenge, I think today, I think it was easier, honestly, you know, 10 years ago, probably, you know, now, I don't know that the teacher preparation programs are really great. And so you're kind of up against that a lot. And then there's lots of turnover in Clark County, especially as a teacher shortage. And so you
00:21:06
Speaker
you might be looking for teachers that can just show up every day. And you treat them like gold, but at some point in time, you have to be the boss. And some people, especially the less experienced crowd, might not like that. And it's hard. So you try to establish the relationships of knowing them as a person first, so that when you have to say something they know,
00:21:32
Speaker
you know, that you're just doing it to make the school better. But boy, it's a challenge for sure sometimes. Well, and I call that building trust capital because there is a point where, like you said, I mean, you got to be assertive. And, you know, that's...
00:21:50
Speaker
When you talk about the teacher preparation programs, they do a poor job of that too, of really helping teachers understand how to be assertive in the classroom. And then it's our teachers that are moving into administrative roles, so they really aren't good at being assertive either. So usually you have people that are one extreme, they're either
00:22:10
Speaker
like almost aggressive and that's the people that are controlling or whatever or you have almost passive where they almost let people run over them like you said they they want to be people's friends but they don't know how to you know draw that line and say here's what we need to do and that's where that that assertiveness comes in of being able to balance that
00:22:29
Speaker
And, you know, when I talk about trust capital, that's, you know, build that relationship with them where they know that you're sincere and really want the best for them. But then with that assertiveness, they understand too that, hey, sometimes team comes first. Sometimes, you know, our shared purpose comes
00:22:46
Speaker
before me and you know that's a balance that I think effective leaders do learn to to to do but but it's it's not easy and we don't do a very good job of prepping them to do that because you're right I mean you want to build the relationships but that's just the means to an end you do that so that then you can get the best out of them and you know and the other thing like you said is tough that
Addressing Teacher Shortages
00:23:14
Speaker
I heard someone, and I don't remember what school it was, but they talked about there's a university in Texas, not the University of Texas, but a university there that has like 40,000 students, 30 or 40,000 students. They only have 40 in their teacher ed program.
00:23:31
Speaker
I mean, it's just, you know, and so like you said, who do you who do you hire? You know, I mean, you're just trying to get more bodies in the classroom. And so they're not prepared. And so it's just a struggle. Yeah, I think we're fine.
00:23:46
Speaker
where that's starting to become a problem with admin. Also, like you were saying, where, you know, so many of admin are, are, we're tired. You know, it's a challenge. And, you know, if we can, if we can retire, not, not that I'm too close, but a lot of us aren't going to be around in five years to run schools, and we're going to have to take people who may or may not be prepared or be leaders and put them in leadership roles. And I don't know how that's going to turn out.
00:24:16
Speaker
Do you think that leadership can be taught though? Is being a leader a natural ability in some cases? Or can you teach people to be leaders? Yeah, people ask me that. Yeah, is leadership something you're born with or taught? And I'm like, yes.
00:24:38
Speaker
It is love. It's just kind of like the assertiveness thing. Assertiveness is a skill set that you develop. Some people are kind of naturally more born with it than others. It's a skill set you develop and so a lot of leadership, you know, one of the things I actually taught, you know, I was
00:24:58
Speaker
a teacher and then administrator and then I'll move to the college level and talk leadership, educational leadership, graduate level for people that were wanting to become administrators. And so one of the things that I would do is have them take something called a strength finder's test.
00:25:15
Speaker
And what it does is it gives you like your top five leadership strengths that based on that assessment that you may have. And so everybody has certain strengths, but we all have different strengths. And so the key is to kind of understand what your strengths are and focus on those and develop those, but to understand where there's areas that aren't your strengths. And that's where you try to get the right people in the right places so that there's not the weakness for the team.
00:25:43
Speaker
You know, Riai Koka once said, I hire people smarter than me and then I get out of their way and let them do their job. And, you know, that's just that's so important. But, you know, I can think of
00:25:59
Speaker
When I think back over my teaching career, I talked for 10 years before I moved into administration. And just like most teachers, I had some good administrators and I had some really poor administrators.
00:26:20
Speaker
what I found is you learn from both of them actually, what to do and what not to do. But I think when you have a strong leader, man, they're just, they're a great mentor and a great role model and you can learn a lot from them. You know, one of the things I share in my book, Principal Bootcamp is I remember my high school principal and I remember how he was and it was a different time because that was a few years ago for me to be in high school. But you know, he,
00:26:48
Speaker
He knew everybody's name. He knew all the teachers. He, you know, he would just go in the classrooms and sit and visit what he would call it. And, you know, that was before cell phones and everything. So, you know, he wasn't always preoccupied, but, you know, he would just, he would talk to him in the hallways and just, but I just remember seeing him do that in the importance of building relationships, even as a high school student, which, you know, we don't think they pay attention to much, but
00:27:16
Speaker
I picked up on that from him even way back then. And I talk about that in that book that that was something I remember from 35 years ago or whatever. And it was just very impactful that we have our own strengths that we need to develop. But good mentoring can help us be even stronger regardless. Everybody can be better.
00:27:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You kind of went over something that's kind of in our book where I don't know if it was you or I but we talked about how we have to know I think as leaders have to know what everybody's strengths are. Because at times we don't need to be the leader, we should let others take on that role. I don't know again, I don't know what chapter that's in per se, it might be, you know, diversity,
00:28:07
Speaker
and using people to their strengths. But I found that a lot of admin maybe can't let go of the leadership position and let others take that role on. And I don't understand why they wouldn't do that if the other person is better suited to lead that situation.
00:28:25
Speaker
Oh, you're exactly right. And that kind of goes back to the control thing, because they feel like they're responsible for everything. So they have to be in charge of everything. It's like always joke with, you know, if I'm speaking like to educate or to administrators or at a conference or, you know, at a district level or whatever, I'm like, you know, it makes no sense to delegate and then micromanage them.
00:28:51
Speaker
You know, I mean that makes no sense, but you're absolutely right and I can't remember which chapter it is either I was trying to look through I can't remember which one but I think it was leveraging individual strengths or something. It might be though I don't remember but it really is You know so one of the things I learned real quick as an administrator is I Have a lot of teachers that know a lot more than me
00:29:20
Speaker
Yes. And like you said, and some of them, I know they have strengths in areas that, man, you know, blow me away in that area. And so why would you not utilize that? You know, I mean, it makes, to me, that's poor leadership to not do that. I think that's one of the keys of effective leadership is being able, like you said, to identify the strengths of someone, but then utilize them. Don't just identify them, but, you know, take advantage of that and get the most out of that.
00:29:50
Speaker
Uh, but again, yeah, I think it comes back to control and they feel like they're ultimately responsible for everything.
Building Teamwork in Schools
00:29:55
Speaker
But even if they delegate, like I said, some, you know, want to micromanage everything that someone does. Um, I remember one of my first principles. Um, she had the assistant principal write a newsletter.
00:30:12
Speaker
and she would just like give her the range, you know, just write it, whatever, and then send it to me. Well, when she sent it to her, she would print it out and she would send it back to her and it would look like a bloodbath. Cause it would be marked and everything changed and she's like,
00:30:30
Speaker
You know, she wouldn't say it to her, obviously, but like, you know, when your sister principal hasn't come to the teachers and complained, it's not a good culture. But she was like, you know, why is she even bother asking me to do this if she's going to change everything to exactly like she wants? You know, she's wasting my time. And then, you know, she's spending the time to do it anyway. Why doesn't she just do it? And I'm like, teachers get that way too sometimes, you know, frustrated with that type of thing.
00:31:00
Speaker
One of my favorite quotes that you put out there is that you can walk into five different classrooms and see five different teachers doing five different things.
00:31:08
Speaker
And it comes back to that control thing because I don't understand why administrators expect every classroom to be exactly the same. We should be using teachers to their strengths and letting them do what they do well with the kids that they have. I've just never understood the idea that every first grade has to be exactly the same when the kids are certainly not the same. So it kind of comes back to what we're talking about. Is it control or is it just a lack of
00:31:37
Speaker
Knowledge as a leader of a building that makes them think that everything has to work the same Probably both. Yeah, probably probably a little bit of both Because I remember that I remember that as a teacher I remember a sister principal coming in for an observation And really the only thing he could say to me is he complained because they didn't have enough stuff on my walls And I'm like, I don't teach on my walls
00:32:03
Speaker
And, uh, but it was like, you know, cause I, I taught science. I mean, we were, I mean, my students never even sit in desks. We had desks, but they were on the floor. They were, you know, we were outside most of the time. I mean, it was, I had a very, um,
00:32:17
Speaker
To look in the room, you would think it was chaotic, but man, I think they learned better than any science teacher they had, not to brag, but it is. I knew my strengths and how to utilize them with the classroom, and it wasn't sitting in desk and teaching that way.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah, I go with the premise. I don't really care how you teach the standards as long as you don't get me in trouble or get me on the news. If the kids are learning
00:32:50
Speaker
because they're standing on their chair or doing whatever. As long as everybody's okay, why do we micromanage that? I struggle greatly with that. Sadly, I think that's where a lot of districts are going is trying to make them more controlled in the environment.
00:33:14
Speaker
You know, and to me, this is just nuts, but, you know, a lot of times, you know, they'll walk by and if they see kids just sitting quietly at a desk, they think that's a well-controlled, well-run classroom. And I'm like, yeah, there's probably very little learning going on there, you know? And they probably enjoy learning at that point. I can't remember who it was. I was at a conference once, learning forward, and he basically had a cemetery
00:33:43
Speaker
a picture of a cemetery, I think from Gettysburg. And then he started drawing it and turn it into like desks and rows and things of that nature. I'm like, oh, that's a perfect analogy. Exactly.
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah, so our book is, it's building dynamic teamwork, the 12 principles, 12 V principles. And basically, when you speak, you talk about you discuss the geese, geese and the animal, the actual, you know, for those of you that don't know the geese that fly in the air honk,
00:34:16
Speaker
I actually had heard about the geese before you presented and how they take care of each other and have all these principles. Did you look up at the sky one day and think, we should write a book about that? Where'd that idea come from?
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. Well, I was actually a life science teacher. And I tell the story because one of the big influence, because we all usually have teachers that influence us. And mine was actually my life science teacher when I was in seventh grade. So I actually became a life science teacher. So but probably, I mean, she influenced me. But, you know, being from the south, if people can't tell from my accent,
00:34:58
Speaker
You know, just being outdoors, living outdoors, you know, just loving nature and of course then being the science teacher too. Like I said, most of my classes were outside, so I just, I love animals. I love, you know, everything about wildlife and about the outdoors.
00:35:13
Speaker
and yeah just the geese flying over every winter just was always the neatest thing and the bigger the groups the longer the V formations was just you know kind of all to me and you know the honking and hearing them come from you know it was just so you could hear them like
00:35:32
Speaker
if it was a large enough group you could you know maybe a minute or two before you could even see them and and you know even indoors you could hear it and i would run out like an anticipation and just waiting to watch them go over it's just so cool to me and you know so just
00:35:49
Speaker
you know you kind of just look at things and study and like you know it's kind of how do you know you just start again studying a little bit the you know why they fly that way and you know why are they in the groups and you know what's the honking going on and you know all that stuff and you know the more I like studied it I'm like man you know that's that's powerful
00:36:10
Speaker
Team analogy, you know, just everything that they exhibit. And, you know, I saw the, you know, I just, that was, you know, I'm like, man, there's just, there's so many correlations, like with effective teamwork.
00:36:26
Speaker
And, you know, and then, you know, you joke about why I chose you or whatever, but, you know, when I spoke at your school, it was like just so dynamic. The team, they're like, man, you have a really great group and they're just, man, they support it. Just, you know, I got to spend the day with you all, but it was like, it was just really neat to see how they were so supportive and encouraged each other and just, you know, it was like,
00:36:49
Speaker
you know, that just fits right with the theme of, you know, what kind of the vision I had for that book. So, you know, worked out well. Yeah, it worked out quite well. And you know, you do a great job. The first few chapters really are about how the synergy of these
00:37:08
Speaker
correlates to a synergy of a school and how principals can kind of use those as a reference to lead and build more dynamic teams. This really was fascinating as I started thinking about it as well when we were writing it that all of those principals do just really align with having a dynamic school.
00:37:30
Speaker
And any team really, but yeah, I mean, it really does fit with the school concept and, you know, just, just everything about it from how they communicate, how they encourage each other, just the, um, everyone in their role, in their position.
00:37:47
Speaker
you know maximizes the efficiency or like you said the synergy and i love that word synergy and that's why we use it throughout the book is that you know it really does like create this dynamic team culture that you know is it done with just a group and that's why you know we make that distinction in the book to that it's not just a group of people working together which is often the case if you don't have a strong culture but man when you create a team with it.
00:38:17
Speaker
That's when everybody's utilizing their strengths and their talents and it makes the whole team, you know, the sum of the whole is greater than the parts when you have everybody in the right position, you know, utilizing their strengths and giving their best. And, you know, the other thing with it too, and I always joke, you know, about the honking, but, you know,
00:38:46
Speaker
The most important aspect of their communication is encouraging each other.
00:38:52
Speaker
You know, they're up there and they're flying and they're working hard and they're, you know, they're doing their best. But, you know, that encouragement from the one right behind them or the one they hear right in front of them, man, that is, that's huge. And, you know, as humans, we like that too. You know, unlike even as adults, you know, we like praise, we like appreciation. Those things build us up and they don't cost any money.
00:39:19
Speaker
to do you know and it's just it's so key and it's not just the administrators job to do that but it's every person on the team you know encouraging each other you know when i would like to leave that with you know i should hear teachers honking in the hallways
00:39:37
Speaker
sticking their head in their teammates room and honking in the morning just encouraging each other is just so important because we don't do that. Teaching is such an isolating endeavor sometimes and they just feel like they're all alone in their little island in their room.
00:39:55
Speaker
And the more we can do to have that team concept, even one things we talk about in the book is the importance of small teams. It doesn't always have to be the big group together, the big staff meeting together. It's just those small units and teams building that synergy together too that can just really make a difference.
00:40:20
Speaker
you know, motivation, encouragement, appreciation, just ever, just the whole morale of the school, really. Yeah, I found like
Future of Educational Leadership
00:40:29
Speaker
if I can, if I can get one grade level just to have synergy, you know, then that grade level, I don't have to worry about near as much. And you're trying to just find, find little pockets of synergy are a word. And if you know, if you can get four out of six in a grade level that are working, then then that's great. And then try to incorporate the other
00:40:48
Speaker
the other two, per se. But it kind of goes back to your other book right now, Assertive Teacher, where some people might be a little too assertive or honk a little loudly. And with the podcast, it's all about perspective. And are they honking too loudly at me? And why are they honking? And the challenge of leadership is to get people to understand, well, we're honking in an encouraging manner.
00:41:14
Speaker
in a friendly manner. And some people just can't take it that way. Right, right. So what other, you know, looking forward for you, you know, you got 15 books, I know you got two more kind of waiting in the wings.
00:41:31
Speaker
uh going back to geese waiting in the wings again what uh you know what areas do you hope to help you know what your next two projects i don't know if you can talk to them about about or not but uh you know what where do you see you're going with your your your future in terms of helping helping admin helping teachers yeah i think then the next focus will be um
00:41:54
Speaker
administrators specifically. I'm finishing one that's called Finding Your Leadership Edge, and it's really about helping administrators be more assertive. And again, when we say assertive, a lot of times in education, we see that as a bad word. We think a great week.
00:42:11
Speaker
We equate that with aggressiveness, and it's not at all. It's actually a balance between being passive and being aggressive. And like I said, it's a skill set that we have to work on and we have to be mindful of. But when we get to that point, that's what's going to make an effective teacher. But for the leader, that's what's going to make an effective leader. Because like you said, there's two things happen. They'll know the importance of building those relationships with their staff and being a servant type leader for them.
00:42:41
Speaker
helps them set boundaries, learn to say no when we talk about a certainness, where did they have the teacher's focus and saying, hey, sometimes it's not about you, it's about the team. So knowing when they have to be like a little bit tougher. And that goes back to kind of like I said, that trust capital that they have to build with them. And then the big thing, hopefully, that I'm undertaking is kind of reshaping leadership for education. It's something I call inter-relational leadership.
00:43:10
Speaker
and it's kind of a mix between like transformational and servant leadership. I think we have too much hierarchy in education and I know I'll get pushed back from that but you know when you think about it you know like I said most teachers in the classroom are
00:43:32
Speaker
And again, that may be changing because of the shortage, but at least looking from past perspective, and maybe that's why there's a shortage because we need this kind of transition. But the average teacher is highly educated. They have at least a bachelor's degree. Over 50% have a master's degree. They have experience. I mean, they're a professional. And so we need to engage them that way, not treat them
00:43:58
Speaker
You know, a lot of times, and one of the big things I hear from teachers all the time is my administrator treats me like a student. And I think sometimes moving from teacher to administrator, we forget to change that mindset, you know, because we always taught students. So we treat students like students. But then when you move into that new role, you have to change how that you interact and treat your professionals. And so I think that's important to do. So I think, you know, one of the
00:44:29
Speaker
I always go back to Finland, not that they're perfect or anything, but they do a lot of things right. And it really has nothing to do with the size of their country or culture or anything like that. But man, they give their teachers a lot of leeway.
00:44:48
Speaker
We're very, from the top down, and I don't mean from the district, but just policy-wise from Washington down, we let politics and politicians drive our education, which is horrible. Over there, they don't do that. They call it local control, but the teachers, the local schools have more control than the government does. And that's a lot of power to give teachers, but it's something they should have.
00:45:16
Speaker
They know the students in their school better than anyone else. They should be the ones really driving the decisions. And it would be nice if we could get more back to that than what we do here. You know, because again, like I said, you know, if you walk in the classroom, who's going to know that group of students better than that teacher? You know, nobody.
00:45:35
Speaker
And, you know, how one teaches might be a little bit different than the other, but, you know, they know how to reach those students. And yeah, I moved away from
00:45:49
Speaker
from you know controlling so much obviously that's who I am where you know now I don't even do the class list for the following year the teachers know the kids they know what you know what they need going forward and they know their colleagues fairly well I'll contribute but it is an interpersonal inter-relational
00:46:09
Speaker
job when you're working with teachers as well. I know which teachers want me just to shoot it straight and I know which ones are enneagram twos and that they're going to cry a little bit or or I'm hurt to feelings that they're going to perseverate and that comes back to relationships which all in the end I think it always comes back to relationships over everything.
00:46:28
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's my, you know, if people follow any of my social media, you know, to me, that's foundational for everything. I mean, education is relationship. Leadership is relationship. I mean, you know, that student in your classroom is always going to do more for you if they feel like that you care about them and you respect them and that you want the best for them. It doesn't matter how old they are and it doesn't matter what the subject is.
00:46:57
Speaker
That's where it begins. And same thing with adults. That teacher that knows that that administrator really cares about them, respects them as a professional, and wants them to be their best, they're more than likely, it's called the Pygmalion Effect, they're more than likely going to give them their best.
00:47:15
Speaker
And the random ones that don't, like you were saying, you know, you adjust to the needs and sometimes you might have to have those tough conversations, but for 90% or 95%, it works flawlessly and frees you up to be able to focus on those few areas that you need to instead of just trying to control everything and just burning yourself out as an administrator.
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You are more than willing to speak at schools, conferences.
Upcoming Engagements and Closing
00:47:48
Speaker
You fly all over the country. Where are you flying to next? Who are you meeting with next? What do you got on the radar? Yeah, I'm done until the first of the year, but I jumped right on the plane January the 1st. So I'm heading to Missouri. Man, Washington, DC.
00:48:09
Speaker
We're in Chicago in February, I think. We're both up there. Into Vegas, of course. I've got two in Vegas, so always love coming to Vegas. That's one of my favorite. You know, you love everywhere you go, and I love the educators everywhere, but sometimes when you get to go to a fun city, that, you know, kind of makes you just pinch yourself that, man, I get, this is my job.
00:48:35
Speaker
And for people that maybe don't follow you, you know, you love Cirque shows. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Oh, that since, since I was a teenager, that's when they, in the eight, late eighties, most people didn't even know they were around then. But, um, man, I saw, I saw, um, I think they were on PBS actually. And it just,
00:48:57
Speaker
That's just amazing, the talent that they have. And so yeah, I do. Every time I'm out there, I watch one of the shows and some of them I've seen a couple of times. I'll watch it all again when I'm out there. Just yeah, absolutely. Well, tell everybody there's a lot of admin that listen to this or a lot of teachers, maybe they want to talk to the admin. Give your information out how they can get ahold of you so that you can come speak at their school.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah, so whether it's Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, it's just Dr. Brad Johnson. The website is doctor spelled out instead of the orbit, Dr. Brad Johnson. If you just stop Dr. Brad Johnson in Google or whatever, it's probably going to pop me up there.
00:49:46
Speaker
Well, I, you know, I've, I think I've told you this before, but you know, so much of the way I kind of leave schools is based upon kind of the same beliefs you have. And I remember the first time I actually liked one of your tweets was in 2019. I've screenshot it for some reason. And so I have that. But, you know, not only thank you for allowing me to come along the journey of writing the book, but just let me thank you for all the help you give principals and teachers and
00:50:11
Speaker
all the positive changes you made in education because we sure need a beacon of hope right now. So thank you to you for being one of those beacons.
00:50:20
Speaker
Oh, I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, I love it. Like I said, I have the best job in the world because I get to go inspire teachers and administrators. So, you know, I never thought that's something that, you know, I wouldn't have even dreamed of it, you know, as a growing up or even in college. But, you know, I've been very fortunate. But yeah, it's
00:50:41
Speaker
I love it. It's hard work. Man, I appreciate everything that teachers do. Administrators, the whole staff, not just them, but every adult that's in education, just, man, they give so much of themselves for our children, get so little, really respect for it and appreciation for it from society in general. It's a tough job, whether it's a teacher, staff member, or administrator.
00:51:09
Speaker
And so I always want them to know that if nobody else appreciates them, they know that I appreciate them and everything that they do. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for being here. And I appreciate it. And hopefully people reach out. Make sure you reach out and have Dr. Brad Johnson come to your school. And I will see you in Chicago if I don't see you when you come to Vegas. Sounds good, man. All right, thank you very much. All right, bye.