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From Junkie to Judge’s Mary Beth O’Connor
73 Plays14 days ago
Mary Beth O’Connor has been sober from her methamphetamine use disorder since 1994. She also is in recovery from abuse, trauma, and anxiety. She wrote about her story in her award-winning memoir From Junkie to Judge: One Woman’s Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction.
Mary Beth is a director for She Recovers Foundation and for LifeRing Secular Recovery. She also is on the Advisory Council for The Hyer Calling Foundation. She regularly speaks on behalf of these organizations and about multiple paths to recovery. This includes television, radio, conferences, podcasts, and recovery houses. She develops relationships with other organizations, such as Women for Sobriety and trains attorneys, judges, and medical professionals.
Mary Beth regularly writes opinion pieces which have appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, Recovery Today, and other publications. Her memoir writings have been published in Memoir Magazine, Awakenings, and Ravens Perch among others.
Professionally, six years into her recovery, Mary Beth attended Berkeley Law. She worked at a large firm, then litigated class actions for the federal government. In 2014 she was appointed a federal Administrative Law Judge from which position she retired early in 2020.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Destination Change'
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome to Destination Change, a podcast where we talk recovery, treatment, and more. I'm your host, Angie Fiedler-Sutton, with the National Behavioral Health Association Providers, and I use she, her pronouns.
Mary Beth O'Connor's Recovery Journey
00:00:21
Speaker
My guest today is Mary Beth O'Connor. Mary has been sober from her methamphetamine use disorder since 1994.
00:00:28
Speaker
She also is in recovery from abuse, trauma, and anxiety. She wrote about her story in her award-winning memoir, From Junkie to Judge, One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. Mary Beth is a director for SheRecovers Foundation and for LifeRings Secular Recovery.
00:00:41
Speaker
She also is on the advisory council for the Higher Calling Foundation. She regularly speaks on behalf of these registered organizations and about multiple paths to recovery. This includes television, radio, conferences, podcasts, and recovery houses.
00:00:54
Speaker
She develops relationships with other organizations such as Women for Sobriety and trains attorneys, judges, and medical professionals.
Professional Achievements Post-Recovery
00:01:00
Speaker
Mary Beth regularly writes opinion pieces which have appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, Recovery Today, and other publications.
00:01:08
Speaker
Her memoir writings have been published in Memoir Magazine, a Awakenings, and Raven's Perch, among others. Professionally six years into her recovery, Mary Beth had attended Berkeley Law. She worked at a large firm and litigated class actions for the federal government.
00:01:20
Speaker
In 2014, she was appointed a federal administrative law judge, from which position she retired early in 2020. Thank you very much for joining us today, Mary Beth. Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.
00:01:31
Speaker
i don't know how much you know about the history of MBHAP, but we were actually started by a healthcare lawyer. So we have a strong law background and compliance background. We were created or formed by ah Harry Nelson of what was then Nelson Hardiman, but is now Leish Tishman Nelson Hardiman.
00:01:50
Speaker
And he just basically saw that there wasn't a whole lot out there for compliance on addiction treatment. Originally, it was just addiction treatment. ah We then, of course, rebranded to BHAP.
00:02:00
Speaker
Your bio pretty much says, but I like to ask origin stories about kind of why you got into the recovery space. Yes, you've been through recovery yourself, but what made you decide to turn that into your job versus it being just something you do something else?
Educating and Advocating in Recovery
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah, so when I was ah you know a lawyer and a judge, which I started six years into my sobriety, I didn't get sober until I was 32. So I actually went to law school when I was 39 years old. And and so you know there's a sort of a limitation about what you feel free to say publicly, but also I was just very, very busy with my career and the rest of my life. But when I took retirement, and I always emphasize early retirement,
00:02:40
Speaker
um It was it was really a look even looking forward to that was a thinking about a new way to be of use like What would I be doing? Could I be of service in a new way in the recovery space? And so I joined the board for life ring secular recovery in 2017 before I retired and then the board for she recovers But once I was retired I could really start talking openly about my whole story in a new way without having really any constraints And so that allowed me to talk about my child abuse history, my sexual assault history, my teenage meth use and my, you know, ongoing meth use until 32 and my, and my recovery in a much more detailed way. And without sort of worrying about what should I say in this context or in this environment, now I can just, you know, say everything all the time. And so the goal is to try to use my story to help educate, sort of open ears.
Defining Recovery and Its Complexity
00:03:34
Speaker
You know, that Judge Tuttle is kind of an ear opener. but also to share my recovery, not just from substances, but from PTSD, from severe anxiety, you know, from various forms of abuse. So it's a role that I hope has value for multiple reasons. One of the things I like to ask when I am talking to someone who has gone through recovery themselves and are in recovery is, what does it mean to you to go through treatment recovery? How do you define that? And what what kind of hurdles have you come across?
00:04:01
Speaker
Yes, I have 31 years of sobriety at this point, continuous sobriety. And I went into an inpatient treatment program. I was actually in a longer term treatment program. I was in for five months. And, you know, today, of course, so many programs are very short, 28, 30 days, which is often not long enough. So I was lucky. I mean, on the other hand, it was ah a low cost program. I didn't have insurance. I didn't have money. I had to actually wait on a wait list for a long time.
Addressing Co-occurring Disorders
00:04:28
Speaker
But today, i think one of the things that's different from when I got sober is the emphasis and the recognition that such a high percentage of us with ah with a substance use disorder also have other mental health conditions and that they need to be treated simultaneously.
00:04:43
Speaker
And so today, as I'm sure you know, we call that dual diagnosis or co-occurring disorder. When I went into rehab, they said, oh, no, no, don't deal that stuff until until you're stable in your sobriety. But that didn't feel right to me.
00:04:56
Speaker
And so when I got home from rehab, I actually found a trauma therapist. And so I started doing that work at the same time in my early recovery. um But today, one of the things that I like seeing is that those co-occurring disorders are being addressed simultaneously from the beginning, or at least they they should be. And many, although not all, facilities do that because it's going to increase the odds of success. right? If you're addressing both, there's such an interplay between the conditions and then an interplay between the recoveries.
00:05:24
Speaker
One of the things why we call this podcast destination change is because it's the idea that recovery is not a straight and narrow path. It is a journey. You have fallbacks. You don't always go the same order. Everybody doesn't necessarily go the same order.
00:05:39
Speaker
One of things we like to ask people are, what are some of the barriers that you've come across to be able to move forward in recovery? and Yeah, I mean, you know, some of the times it frustrates me that in America when there are drug policy discussions, there's sort of this underlying premise that treatment is readily accessible on demand for everyone who wants it. as i'm And as I'm sure we both know, that just isn't true.
00:06:02
Speaker
And so it's very disheartening to know how many people that want treatment can't get access to treatment when they're ready for it, how there's long wait lists, or if you don't have financial ability to pay in any way that you may actually not be able to go inpatient treatment, even if that would be the right pathway for you.
Misconceptions and Multi-path Recovery
00:06:19
Speaker
But there's another side of that that impacted me directly. And that is that's too many programs still are 12-step exclusive. you know I mean, don't get me wrong, 12 Steps, Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, all the anonymouses, they can be a good fit peer support program for a lot of people, but they're also not right for everyone.
00:06:39
Speaker
And certainly to me, if someone's being treated and someone's holding themselves out as a an expert in the recovery space, um Then they really need to know about the other peer support options and the other approaches to recovery and not have that very narrow view that the only thing that they're going to that will help anybody is 12 steps. We need to understand multiple pathways. As you say, what works for one person won't work for the person sitting next to them.
00:07:06
Speaker
And to really, I think, prioritize the individual standing in front of us rather than thinking that what worked for me is going to work for everybody. Now, since you are do have a a legal background, and one of the things I'd like to talk to you about is what we call ah the justice-involved aspect of it.
00:07:22
Speaker
Obviously, for the longest time, it was a stereotype that if you were in prison, you didn't deserve treatment or, you know, that's why you were in prison. Kind of talk about how that has changed and where you hope it's going to be going.
Decriminalization of Drug Use
00:07:35
Speaker
I don't think we've changed enough. I mean, I will say to me, decriminalization of personal use is the way we should go. And there's a couple reasons for that. I mean, first of all, even the government acknowledges that substance use disorder is actually a medical condition, and yet we still criminalize it.
00:07:52
Speaker
There are literally a half a million people in jail or prison today just for possession, not for any other drug related crime, just for possession, which to me is a huge contradiction.
00:08:03
Speaker
The other thing is that it is much more expensive to incarcerate people than it is to treat them. I mean, depending on the data that I've seen, you could treat three to six people for the same price as incarcerating one.
00:08:16
Speaker
And again, we don't have enough treatment. So it's very expensive and is also less successful. But then on top of that, there's also a really vast racial disparity in the way that drug laws are enforced.
00:08:29
Speaker
So white people and people of color use drugs at very similar rates. But the odds of getting arrested or if you're arrested, getting charged with a felony rather than a misdemeanor, getting incarcerated instead of getting probation, those odds are much, much higher for people of color.
00:08:44
Speaker
So to me, having drug courts is an improvement. Some drug courts are better than others. But really, I think where we need to be is to take those incarceration dollars, put them into treatment and ah harm reduction and also supports, employment supports, housing supports, etc. So that's sort of where I wish we were. so I acknowledge some improvement. I'd rather be in drug court than a regular court.
00:09:06
Speaker
But we have a ways to go. Now, let's talk a little bit about your memoir. I don't want to ask, you know, why did you write it? Because that's that's obvious. But, you know, what made you decide that this is something that needed to be public, that, you know, that you wanted to put it on page?
Memoir Writing and Personal Reflections
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. And so the title, you know, it's sort of from junkie to judge, one woman's triumph over trauma addiction captures the arc. And I did have very specific reasons for doing it. For one thing, once I was appointed a judge,
00:09:32
Speaker
It was sort of a natural reflection time. And I sort of think, well, could my story be of use? And so then I actually started reading recovery memoirs. I had i had only read a little bit. um And I realized a couple things.
00:09:42
Speaker
One is that most of them don't show where the addiction came from. It sort of like leaps into the crazy stories. and And I think it was important for people to know this is why my story is not that unusual. Childhood abuse led to childhood addiction, very common pathway. And sort of to explain why it made sense to me to get to the point of shooting methamphetamine by 17.
00:10:04
Speaker
um And then I have the usual drug stories. But then the last third of the book, 30% is my first three years of recovery, because a lot of memoirs, again, it's like, well, I went to a couple meetings and everything was great. And it's like, well, that's not how recovery works.
00:10:17
Speaker
So I wanted a more realistic example of what recovery really looks like. But included in that was an example of recovery that's not 12-step based. I mean, don't get me wrong, my strategies and techniques, I'm sure a lot of 12-step people use them, but all the memoirs I saw were 12 steps and mine is not.
00:10:34
Speaker
And it also, in my memoir, I talk about that interplay between trauma and PTSD and anxiety and recovery. So I thought, I didn't see the book out there that I wanted to write. And so I thought it would be a a valuable use of my time to try to get a book out there that I thought would be helpful.
00:10:51
Speaker
So thinking about all of those things when I wrote Now, it being a memoir, you obviously didn't have writer's block per se, but it is personal. So did you have trouble kind of separating yourself from what you were writing to not be so involved that it was hard to write?
00:11:05
Speaker
I mean, it is challenging because to write memoir, you know, it's written like a novel. right So it has to be immersive in seeing what was I feeling in that moment? What exactly was happening? You have to go back to difficult times in your life in a very detailed way. And that definitely could be challenging at times. But I will say that there was also a release of some second guessing of myself and a little bit. I came out of it with more sympathy for my younger self, I think a little bit more understanding because For example, I had several sexual assaults. And like many women, you always second guess your role in those sexual assaults. And when I wrote the book, especially about this really one particular rape, it really freed me from that second guessing. I was like, you know what? No, I did everything I could to survive that. You know, I was paying attention and staying on top of it. I did. I really did the best I could.
00:11:57
Speaker
And so there were moments like that, really looking at my younger self in a more understanding way that as many bad decisions as I made, you know, even the drug use in the beginning, it works, right? And so it's not like I was making a choice that didn't have a clear rationale. It seemed to be helping in the beginning. That's why I kept going. So yes, it was challenging going to the details, but there was also a sort of a little bit more healing that came out of the end of it as well.
00:12:26
Speaker
Did you do have any kind of procedures or or habits that where you kind of just, I guess, not make it fun? That sounds wrong. But, you know, basically where you kind of refresh your happiness so you weren't constantly going down the the darker path.
00:12:42
Speaker
As I was writing the book, you mean? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, um writing the book was a very long process. It was like a side hobby. It actually took me about seven years to finish it because, you know, again, I was a new judge. I was busy. I was working. And I didn't know how to write a memoir. I actually had to learn, you know, the I was a great legal writer, but it turned out that those skills were only somewhat transferable to memoir writing.
00:13:05
Speaker
So I got to go to writers' conferences and engage with other writers and meet interesting people. i was in critique groups. And, you know, you you develop a relationship. You're sharing stories. You're getting to know each other, you know, at a deeper level. So there was definitely a lot of positive, including developing a writer's community, a lot of social engagement. So there is support.
00:13:25
Speaker
If you're thinking about writing your memoir, there's a lot of supportive environments where you can develop a community that will help you deal with the hard parts, but also that are very interesting and fun people to be around.
00:13:36
Speaker
Now, one thing I always like to ask people who've written memoirs, how did you work around the fact that, you know, this is obviously mostly you, but it's other people as well? You know, making sure that having those people in your book, I guess, is the best way to put it.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there were definitely some people like friends from childhood whose names I changed because they are now doing well and it's not my job to out them, you know, for their prior drug use or bad behavior. But there are some people you can't get around like your family, right? I mean, my mother, my stepfather, I had to write about. And when I was writing it, they were alive.
00:14:10
Speaker
But it turned out that by the time it was published, they were both dead. And so that made it a little simpler. But I wasn't going to let that stand in my way. other thing I'll say is it's important when writing memoir, one of the things they talk about is it can't be a revenge story. You have to be fair to the people, even the ones who were abusive to you or harmed you.
00:14:29
Speaker
And that's an interesting process. And so I really did do my best to be as balanced as I could to make them, you know, the three-dimensional people that they really were, even though they had a significant harm on me. And so those were the kind of things I was thinking about.
00:14:45
Speaker
Let's talk a little bit about ah your work for SheRecovers Foundation and LifeRing Secular Recovery.
SheRecovers Foundation and Women's Recovery
00:14:50
Speaker
ah Let's talk about the SheRecovers Foundation. Give me kind of the elevator pitch of what that is about.
00:14:55
Speaker
So SheRecovers is not just for substance recovery. It's also for trauma recovery, mental health recovery, things like other behavioral disorders like gambling or eating.
00:15:06
Speaker
It's for perfectionism, overwork, grief. It's really everything in one place. Because most of the women who have a substance use disorder and addiction also have one or more of those other things to work on.
00:15:19
Speaker
And so in SheRecovers, you can talk about the whole picture, the interplay. So for example, somebody might post on the SheRecovers private Facebook group, you know, like I'm doing really well with my alcohol, but I'm losing control over my food again, you know. And so the women can talk about those kind of interplays, about how the They're progressing in different areas at different rates and sometimes they're doing better in one area and not as well in another.
00:15:45
Speaker
So that was really, it they didn't see a peer support group that offered, that was that broad, that allowed women to talk about recoveries in a broad way. But also they do also focus like on the mind-body connection. Like we have yoga meetings and dance meetings and it's just, it's really a self-empowerment women's program and it's multiple pathways.
00:16:05
Speaker
So for example, a lot of our members also belong to 12 steps and that's perfectly fine. You know, they can do both. You don't have to give up 12 steps if that's working for you to participate. So that's sort of a ah brief summary of what she recovers is.
00:16:18
Speaker
And then a life ring secular recovery? Yes, the life rings really philosophy is really the way that I did my recovery. the idea The idea is that it's an individual recovery plan, that my plan and your plan are going to be different.
00:16:32
Speaker
and We're different people, we're in different places, we have different philosophical beliefs, different approaches. And so and it's also secular. So a lot of our members actually do have a spiritual or religious beliefs, but We don't talk about that in meetings because, you know, it's out of what we say is out of respect for all faiths and none, no religion in meetings. But we're not in any way hostile and we support our members' personal beliefs.
00:16:57
Speaker
But the real emphasis is on helping our members build an individual plan that will work for them. And so the goal of the meetings is to help with that. um In life-free meetings, the group, they actually talk together. it's There's what's called cross-talk. So they can have discussions about strategies and techniques. Or if somebody had a relapse and wants to talk about it with the group, they can have an honest discussion about strategies.
00:17:20
Speaker
you know, what happened and what mean what but can we offer to help sort of strengthen your plan so it doesn't happen again. and we have a really good workbook to do sort of an analysis to build an individual recovery plan. So it's called the three S's, sobriety, secularity, and self-empowerment.
00:17:37
Speaker
And I will also say for us, sobriety includes the ability to take medication, including medication-assisted treatment for opioid use disorder or alcohol use disorder. So for us, if a medication is medically indicated, and I always emphasize taken as prescribed, that counts as sober for us. And that's different than some than some of the other peer support programs.
00:18:00
Speaker
Now, you're also on the advisory council for the Higher Calling Foundation. They are you know geared towards breaking the stigma around substance use disorder. That's actually one of the barriers we've talked about before on the podcast, as well as educating employers and the hiring employees in recovery. That obviously is another thing that has changed a lot in the last yeah um couple of decades. Want talk a little bit about that?
Recovery Support and Employment
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so the Higher Calling Foundation, exactly right. They're focused around sort of employment and recovery. And so they do things at the individual level, like they will um ah help someone draft their resume, help them sit down and do an analysis about what kind of jobs they want, about what kind of job they realistically can get. We'll work on even helping them, let's say, get their record expunged, if that's standing in the way of employment, can help them get clothes for an interview, do interview practice, all of those things at that individual level. But they also work with employers. on what are called recovery-friendly workplaces, explaining to employers the benefits of actually having someone in recovery. Here are some of the skills and reasons why that could benefit your organization or working with your employees who have a substance use disorder rather than firing them, um but also talking to them about their obligations under the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Family Medical Leave Act. So it's that two-prong, working with the employers and also working with individuals.
00:19:18
Speaker
Now, in doing my research for you, I saw that you were also a recovery advocate. We had interviewed in BeHap Advocate, Andrew Kessler, back on episode 13. If you haven't listened to it, please listen.
00:19:29
Speaker
And one of the things we talked about just kind of how does one advocate?
Becoming a Recovery Advocate
00:19:33
Speaker
I would like to hear your thoughts on, you know, what are some of your go-to tips for if if someone wants to be an advocate? Yeah, I think you need to think about what role would be right for you in this space. Like, for example, you can be an advocate and you can be working with the federal government or your state government on resource allocation or locally. Where are the opioid settlement monies going in your local town? Because there are opioid settlement monies going to most communities in America and you can have input on that.
00:20:00
Speaker
um But then it can also be advocate at a different level. Are you going to advocate for someone getting treatment? Are you going to help um be a peer support specialist or help them through the process? For me, one of the ways that I advocate is that I train lawyers and judges. And so um lawyers have a what are called continuing legal education requirements. They have to do so many units in different areas. And pretty much in every state, they have units that they have to do that are either specifically substance use or their wellness or I can do it under ethics or competence.
00:20:32
Speaker
And so I created a training about substance use and recovery. And I i literally start with what is a substance use disorder? Oh, and why am I calling it that and not addiction? And so I really started at that basic level to sort of educate them.
00:20:46
Speaker
And then I talk about treatment options, peer support options. And I also, when I talk to them, I talk about the difference between dependence, drug dependence and drug addiction, because that matters criminally and otherwise. But I also say where sometimes those drug courts and other court and other legal systems go wrong.
00:21:04
Speaker
Like the court system, the legal system gets involved in drug court, in family law for custody or vegetation, the parole system, the probation system. And sometimes they don't always do things that are evidence-based.
00:21:17
Speaker
And I explain what evidence-based is and what evidence-based is not in some areas that they might want to reconsider their practices. So that's sort of the role i created for myself.
00:21:27
Speaker
But I think it's really just important to think about what's your skill set and what are your interests and build a role that's going to work for you. Now, this is a good opportunity for me to plug the fact that we do have an attorney level membership. So if you are an attorney, check that out.
00:21:40
Speaker
We also have some of our member benefits as access to a legal repository, as well as state frequently asked questions on some of those legal, you you know, whether something is legal in one state, because obviously it changes state to state.
00:21:52
Speaker
We also, as I mentioned, we were formed by Nelson Hardiman, now at least Shishman Nelson Hardiman. Their lawyers also do occasional webinars for us on various legal aspects in terms of like reimbursement. We're getting ready to do one on patient procuring. We really focus on a lot of the like the marketing aspect, too, of that.
00:22:11
Speaker
What would you say is the hardest thing for some of these attorneys and and judges to kind of get into their skull? Some of them are really stuck in these old ideas from like the 80s and 90s about substance use. All right. if They don't, for example, understand what the, debt even what the basic definition is. And they really can confuse the fact that if somebody is dependent, let's say on pain medication, that that is the same thing as an addiction, that it means that they are addicted and they should be treated that way. And I really, you know, there are people that are if you're on long-term opioid medication for pain, you will get physical dependence, but that's not necessarily having a substance use disorder because the definition of a SUD continued use despite notable negative consequences.
00:22:58
Speaker
Well, if you're using the drugs as prescribed and it's helping you by, you know, making your life better and it's not having notable negative consequences, then you have a dependence, you don't have physical dependence. You don't have an addiction and it's important to distinguish. And so I think, and also they they seem to think that the fact that someone was arrested for drugs, sometimes they think, means that they have a drug problem. And as and I explained to actually, 80% of the people or more who use substances use it in moderation. Right. So the fact that you caught them with this drug on them doesn't mean that they have an addiction.
00:23:32
Speaker
And if you force them into treatment that they don't need, you're wasting resources when we don't have enough treatment for everybody as it is. And so I have some of those kind of conversations with them. but Along those same lines, you've been sober since 1994. Congratulations, by the way.
00:23:47
Speaker
Unfortunately, the 90s were not last decade as much as I wish they were.
Scientific Advances in Addiction Understanding
00:23:51
Speaker
um What do you say think is some of the ah some of the things that have been major changes in the industry since the ninety s I will say there was a lot more science. I mean, the last, let's say, 15 years, there were a lot more studies, a lot more understanding of how addiction operates in the brain and in other areas, more understanding about what works in recovery and what doesn't. And there's definitely a much broader emphasis and understanding of multiple pathways. I mean, even SAMHSA, you know, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, one of their fundamental premises is that there should be an individualized assessment
00:24:26
Speaker
and an individually tailored plan for people when they enter treatment. That's new. I mean, people don't always get it. They still often get into one size fits all programs, but that is um but if the experts acknowledge that that's the right approach and that's really critical.
00:24:42
Speaker
There's been an expanded understanding, as I said earlier, about the importance of treating people that are dual diagnosis on both sides of the spectrum, the substance use and the other mental health. There's been a little bit more understanding in the public, I think, about that substance use disorder is a disease or a brain disorder, however you want to categorize it. It's not anywhere near where we need to be.
00:25:03
Speaker
And I think the opioid epidemic has scared people. And there's some doubling down on the criminalization side of it that I think is fear-based and not actually evidence-based. And there's also been an expansion of understanding that peer support groups, that there's a variety of them and that you know that people should get to choose which one they want to go to. So definitely some improvements.
00:25:24
Speaker
Medication-assisted treatment, I guess that's a little bit more widely available, but again, not as available as it should be. So progress, but yet really in no area are we where I wish we were. Well, and speaking of which, I always also like to follow up that question with where do you kind of see the industry going in the next five, 10 years?
00:25:41
Speaker
I mean, you know, right now it's a little bit scary because funds are being cut, you know, federally. SAMHSA has basically been dismantled. a lot of funds for research has gone away. Even the funds for the so the annual study of what drugs people are using in what areas of the country, the funds for that, my understanding is, are gone.
00:26:00
Speaker
And so I think we're going to have a challenge of even knowing where we are. in a year or two, you know, and those kind of, mean, there's all already been lag. By the time they do the survey, it's already a bit historical.
00:26:12
Speaker
Drug testing at the local level, for example, gives you much more accurate, up-to-date information about what's going on today. I do worry that we're going to be stuck with the evidence and knowledge that we have, and we're not going to get any new or little new evidence, little improved understanding over the next five years because of the cuts that are happening. And that's very, very unfortunate.
00:26:31
Speaker
Now, our audience is for every level, from people who are just starting out to people who've been in the industry for a while. So for the people who are just starting out, always like to ask, what kind of advice would you give yourself when you were starting out? What kind of things would you tell people who are getting into the industry?
Managing Expectations in Recovery Work
00:26:46
Speaker
I think one of the challenges for everyone that deals with somebody that has a substance use disorder is the frustration. One of the things I do emphasize when I talk to friends and family is that everybody I know with an addiction, we're friends and family too, right? I understand the frustration. I've experienced it with my loved ones and my family members. And so I think part of it when you're starting off is understanding that, you know, you don't know when someone's sort of going to be ready for taking the next step, whatever that next step might be, whether it's a harm reduction step or a step towards addiction.
00:27:16
Speaker
abstinence. um And then you sort of have to keep your emotions or expectations at bay. So you can really just focus on what's the best thing I can do for the person in front of me now? Like what positive step can I help them with at this point today, knowing that it may not be the step that you think they ought to be taking.
00:27:36
Speaker
The industry has a lot of burnout. And I think part of that is the the frustration, but it's also that people are often overworked and expected to do more things than is sort of realistic. So there are definitely challenges in the industry, but it can be very rewarding as well, knowing that you're having a positive impact on people and developing those relationships with people as they're sort of moving forward in their lives.
00:27:56
Speaker
Well, mentioned burnout. Obviously, the job situation, you know, there are a lot more people needing help than are available to give it. So we're getting strained workers. How would you kind of advise people to kind of keep from getting burnt out?
00:28:09
Speaker
I mean, I think when you enter these kind of roles, a lot of us have sort of that caretaking, you know, personality. You want to be helped. Well, you're entering it not to, it's not the highest paying job you could ever get, right? So it's, there's got to be part of the reason is that you want to help others.
00:28:22
Speaker
But at the same time, you need to take care of yourself. And I think self-care is something that we you really ought to prioritize. And sometimes, you know, that involves talking with other people. Like in SheRecovers, we have a ah subgroup for women in the healthcare care industry, because it can be a very draining and, you know, debilitating job. And that group is there to help them talk with each other and give each other emotional support. And I'm sure other organizations, you know, but professional organizations perhaps have similar groups.
00:28:49
Speaker
But that's the real thing that I think of is that you really, I mean, it's an old saying, but it's true. You can't care for others if you haven't given proper care to yourself. And is that's something that we really need to emphasize.
00:29:00
Speaker
Now, this is similar to the advice question. So if if it's the same answer, just say so. But what would you say is the biggest lesson you've learned since being, you know, becoming involved? I guess, you know, one of the lessons is that when I meet someone for the first time, there is no way for me to guess what their path is going to be. you know, I remember being at ah ah in a peer support group and somebody who had about a year, he would tell me this one guy, oh, that guy is never going to make it like he knew. And it's like, you know what, that guy did make it.
00:29:25
Speaker
He made it like a year later, he got onto a long term sobriety, but he didn't in the beginning. And I think it's we can get to see patterns with people and sometimes start to put them in boxes. You know, this person's in this box, this person's in that box. And sort of judge their odds of success or the pathway that they're probably going to take. But in my experience, it's very difficult to judge because, you know, what's going on in their individual life when they sort of get to the point of being so worn down that they don't want to deal with it anymore, or when some experience happens that opens their eyes to the consequences and or their best friend from using is succeeding in recovery. And maybe that makes them think that, hey, actually, maybe there's a way out or whatever it might be.
00:30:06
Speaker
yeah I think we need to see them as individuals and sort of not categorize them because I honestly, when I meet someone for the first time, I really don't know what their pathway is going to be, whether it's going positive or they're going to be stuck for a long time or or what the details of that forward momentum might look like.
00:30:20
Speaker
What would you say is your least favorite slash hardest part of your job? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm retired now, so my job is self-created. And so I get to do the, I mean, one of the things that was nice when I was thinking about developing a role for myself is, so there was like, what area do I want to have a role in? Okay, let me do it in the recovery space.
00:30:40
Speaker
But then it's, what do I want my role to be? And part of that was, what do I actually like doing so that I can like get rid of most of the job parts that I don't like? I mean, you can't ever get rid of all of them, but but the parts that I like the most. So I like, you know, ah talking, educating. I like interacting with people.
00:30:57
Speaker
I like, you know, speaking and analyzing and creating presentations. So I got to pick the things that I liked about work and keep those and get rid of most of the things that I didn't like. And so it's one of the nice things about being retired and um sort of creating a role for myself is that i got to really define it a lot more. But on the other hand, I think for all of us,
00:31:16
Speaker
Thinking about our skills and our interests is an important part of deciding what job we want in the field and also what's the next job that we want in the field, right? Like, where's my career pathway going forward? Where am I headed?
Using Influence to Educate on Addiction
00:31:29
Speaker
you know, we've already touched on this numerous times, but when all is said and done, why do you do what you do? I really, you know, my, my goal is to be of value. And so I will say that that retired judge title, um i really use that as a tool. It's an ear opener, you know, it helps people listen to me a little bit harder.
00:31:48
Speaker
And so I felt like I had a way in that might be useful to my community. I mean, I feel like every time I share information that people don't know about what addiction really is and what recovery really is, that I'm helping my people, you know, the others of us with a drug history um to get to have but the their society have a better understanding is to their benefit. Right. It's to their advantage. And so it was it's really about.
00:32:13
Speaker
thinking that i that I have some skills that I can use, but also that my personal story is unusual enough that it gets attention and it helps me share information that's going to benefit my community.
00:32:25
Speaker
Now, do you have a typical day or is it yeah what you do change on a daily basis? It changes, but I do have a typical day in that I'm a morning person. And so I, you know, early in the but first thing I'll do is my email, my social media, you know, get on top of all that and then think about what else I'm going to do. And I have like on Mondays, I tend to work on this and on Tuesdays that so I sort of have a little pattern.
00:32:48
Speaker
But of course, sometimes I'm traveling for speaking. And so it gets a little disrupted. Sometimes I'm doing a podcast and other days I'm writing an opinion piece that I want to get published. So it's not like it's locked in stone.
00:33:00
Speaker
But I do have I like patterns and and and habits. It makes me feel like. ah like I'm more on top of my workflow. and so i do have I have a pattern, but it's just not a locked in stone pattern. but Remember, I was a lawyer and a judge. Those are not locked in stone patterns either. right i mean you have to I had to learn to be flexible and to adjust. but this is also The challenge for me today is keeping what I'm doing part-time.
00:33:25
Speaker
because there's so many good opportunities that it's hard to say no. But at the same time, I really want to have part of my life be a little bit more relaxed and, you know, going out more with my girlfriends or whatever it might be.
00:33:36
Speaker
So, so the part of the challenge is keeping it in that part-time box. Now you mentioned you're speaking and and obviously podcast, this is not your first podcast you've been on. You're obviously talking kind of generally about the same topic.
00:33:50
Speaker
How do you kind of make sure that it's not the, you know the same story every time? Well, when speaking, I really think about the audience, as I, of course, do with podcasts, but that's also, you know, the podcaster and I working together. But I have sort of created certain presentations for specific audiences. Like I have a presentation that I often use when I talk to therapists or the ah National Alliance of Mental Illness chapter. I have a presentation that I tend to use with the legal community. I have a presentation that I use for humanists and atheists and, you know, free thinkers.
00:34:22
Speaker
So I have some so um not set, but some templates. And then I modify them based on what the organizer of the conference needs, or I create a new one. I have one on different peer support groups. I go through the six largest addiction peer support groups and I've used that. So I try to i try to use some things over and over, but I have a variety. And like I'm doing ah going to Wisconsin in 10 days to do a keynote. I'm the keynote speaker at a fundraiser for a women's recovery ah house.
00:34:50
Speaker
And so, of course, I talked to them. What's the format? who's Who is the audience? You know, what what do you want me to share with them? And so we worked together for me to create a presentation that's going to involve a lot of my personal story, but also my recovery journey and strategies and techniques and, ah you know, rebuilding your life and that kind of thing. So it's partially using some templates, but also adjusting it for the audience that's so that I provide whatever's going to be most beneficial to to the organization.
00:35:21
Speaker
Now we're getting close to the end. i always like, again, our audience is a wide range. So for the people, i also like to ask kind of what kind of resources do you go to on a regular basis that you could recommend? ah Books, magazines, what kind of that stuff, other than your own book, obviously. like yeah Yes, and my book is 30% Recovery. But I will say one of the things for resources, I do want to mention some of the peer support options if they have clients that they're working with. So for substance use, of course, there's 12 steps, all of the anonymous's.
00:35:50
Speaker
Life brings secular recovery and she recovers foundation as I talked about our options. But there's also others, Women for Sobriety, Smart Recovery, Recovery Dharma. So I think it's, I don't ever care what somebody picks. I just want them to be Given information so they know that they the options so that they can find the right fit. So those are some options on the friends and family side. The um what I often recommend is the book beyond addiction, which is based on craft techniques, right community reinforcement and family training.
00:36:19
Speaker
Beyond Addictions, I've got a workbook and a book, but it's really the best book for friends and family that I've ever read. it talks about the you know the positive reinforcement approach of CRAF.
00:36:29
Speaker
It explains what e addiction is and why it's hard to stop. But it also talks about that self-care that we talked about earlier, what families can and can't do, but also that they need to care for themselves.
00:36:40
Speaker
And then I guess the other resources for me is I get a lot of, I get like the JAMA links of about new studies that come out so that I keep track of what's current. I don't want to put myself out there as having expertise if I'm not staying on top of the new information and the new studies and the new science. And so I do spend about an hour a day working.
00:37:01
Speaker
And the JAMA, you can sign up for the the like the notification and email, and it'll give you a lot of new studies in both mental health and substance use disorder. And I find that really useful to keep on top of.
00:37:11
Speaker
This is ah ah time for me to plug that A, NBHEP has a peer recovery level. So if you are in recovery yourself, feel free to look into that as a membership level.
00:37:21
Speaker
And B, that any of our members get a free subscription to Counselor Magazine, which is also another great resource to plug my own but Now, as i we're getting close to the end, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we haven't or that you thought I was going to ask, but we didn't?
Engagement and Resources
00:37:38
Speaker
I guess the one thing I'll say, you know, I do have a social media presence and I really do not frigging argue with people on social media. My feeds are where I will share links to new studies or articles ah from experts in the field or my own recovery thoughts. And on X, I'm at Mary Beth O underscore. And on Blue Sky, I i got on early enough that I'm Mary Beth O'Connor.
00:38:00
Speaker
I'm also on LinkedIn. um And then my website, junkietojudge.com, that has the opinion pieces that you talked about. There's links, you can read them there. Some example, TV interviews and other things. But also people can message me through my website.
00:38:14
Speaker
So if there's ever a question or a speaking opportunity or just your thoughts that you want to share, feel free to use that messaging feature. I will answer all messages. but I usually is now is when I ask how people can get ahold of you, but you just did.
00:38:28
Speaker
ah So anything else that you'd like to talk about? I think we covered a lot. You know, I think, you know, the main focus is always just sort of sharing information. So hopefully I gave ah some new information about the, from not just my personal experience, but from where we are in the field on the substance use side and hopefully ah some new ideas and some new places for you guys to look for information.
00:38:49
Speaker
You've been listening to Destination Change. Our guest today was Mary Beth O'Connor. Thank you for being here. Our theme song is Sun Nation by Kitsa and used via a Creative Commons license by the Free Music Archive. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple Podcasts so we can get more listeners.
00:39:03
Speaker
In the meantime, you can always see more about the podcast, including show notes and where else to listen, on our website, www.nvhap.org. If you have any questions for the podcast, please email us at info at nvhap.org.
00:39:17
Speaker
Thanks for listening.