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Episode 25: Mark Attanasi with IC&RC
101 Plays17 days ago
A native of New Jersey, who now lives in Oklahoma, Mark Attanasi has been in recovery for 25 years. He is currently the CEO of IC&RC which provides peer credentialing exams.
He brings a wealth of knowledge, and formerly served as the Executive Director of the Oklahoma Drug & Alcohol Professional Counselor Association since 2010. Moreover, Attanasi has over 21 years of non-profit leadership experience, and has been in the behavioral health field since 1999.
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Transcript
00:00:10
Speaker
Bye.
Introduction to 'Destination Change'
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to Destination Change, a podcast where we talk recovery, treatment and more. I'm your host, Angie Fiedler Sutton, with the National Behavioral Health Association of Providers, and I use she, her pronouns.
Meet Mark Adanasen Naseen
00:00:30
Speaker
Our guest today is Mark Adanasen Naseen, author, ah a native of New Jersey, who now lives in Oklahoma. Mark has been in recovery for 25 years. He is currently the CEO of ICNRC, which provides peer credentialing exams.
00:00:42
Speaker
He brings a wealth of knowledge and formerly served as the executive director of the Oklahoma Drug and Alcohol Professional Counselor Association since 2010. Moreover, he has over 21 years of nonprofit leadership experience and has been in the behavioral health field since 1999.
00:00:58
Speaker
Thank you for joining us today, Mark. Well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you.
Mark's Journey to Recovery and Career Change
00:01:02
Speaker
My first question is always origin stories. What got you into the behavioral health addiction treatment industry versus all the other jobs? What what drew you to it?
00:01:11
Speaker
Well, probably my addiction really you know took me to a place where I had to make some changes in my lifestyle. And then once I did go into treatment for my addictions, alcohol and drugs, I recognized that it was really odd that there was a lot of young individuals in recovery with me. And I'm like, wow, their their lives are messed up at such a young age.
00:01:38
Speaker
And I said, I really need to give back and try to help these young kids. so And that's what I did. And I packed up out of New Jersey after I got out of my treatment and moved to Oklahoma for a new start and finished up my degree and went into counseling and started working at a residential adolescent facility.
00:01:57
Speaker
And then it just grew from there. Well, how did you get involved? ah I know you're formally, not currently, but how did you get involved with ODAPCA? You know, what got you involved? No, it's kind of just moving up the ladder. You know, I started off, like I said, as a counselor my first six, seven years, and I kept being moved up to different administrative roles.
00:02:17
Speaker
And that kind of led me to actually from being counselor to lead counselor to a director of a halfway facility and work release program.
00:02:29
Speaker
then that led to working at a detox center as a business development coordinator, trying to wrap this up quickly. And then I went back into counseling for a short time. And then there was an opening at the Oklahoma Department state of State Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services.
00:02:45
Speaker
And I thought that would be a good move. And then after two years working for a state entity, I realized this was not for me. And there was an opening. And I thought that would be a perfect fit. And that was around 2010. And I was with them for 11 and a half years before I took this new role with ICNRC.
00:03:03
Speaker
And what made you go to ICNRC?
Understanding ICNRC's Mission and Impact
00:03:06
Speaker
Well, you know, as you start to participate in in the association of ICNRC, first couple of years is digesting what the association is all about.
00:03:16
Speaker
And then you start wanting plug in. And somebody asked me to run for treasurer. So I did. it was two years that turned into four. And then there was a little change in our organization. our management group left us, which then extended my time as treasurer, trying to reorganize the company and gi find an executive director.
00:03:40
Speaker
After a year and a half, we did find somebody and that person did not work out. And then once again, someone suggested, why don't you put your app in it? be I'm like, I'm so tired of all the work that we've been doing for the last six years.
00:03:56
Speaker
But I said, let me see. And so I did fill out an application, you know, probably a month or two after it was posted. And I ended up taking on the position. So that's what led me here.
00:04:07
Speaker
I did learn a lot during the transition. So our organization is very hard to understand internally. And if you look at it from a business point of view, it does not make sense. ah But it makes sense to us.
00:04:20
Speaker
Well, my our audience is is a wide range of people. So kind of give me the elevator pitch of what ICNRC does for those who might not know. the way The way I started off is we basically protect the public.
00:04:32
Speaker
And we do that through valid, reliable, and legally defensible competency-based exams. okay So basically, there's two parts to show incompetency. is meeting standards. So ICRC does set minimum standards, which could be education, work experience, supervision, ah continuing education units.
00:04:55
Speaker
And then that, once you meet those, then you take the exam as the second part. So our exams will show that you are competent enough to help individuals with addiction, with in peer recovery, with prevention.
00:05:12
Speaker
We even have a supervision one to show you're competent to be a supervisor. And this allows the public to know that, hey, I'm going to somebody that is competent in helping me. So We feel very proud of of all the hard work we put into these exams to make them valid, reliable, and legally defensible.
00:05:32
Speaker
That sounds awesome. And I'm going to get this word wrong. I always get it wrong. it's The reciprocity. resprocity Yeah. ah yeah between I couldn't get it.
00:05:45
Speaker
Talk a little bit more about that and what that means and and why ICNRC does that. Yeah, so reciprocity is is basically allows one individual who is certified in one ah jurisdiction. So we allow one entity, sometimes two, ah depending on what credentials the member board holds, right? Yeah.
00:06:08
Speaker
if am living in New Jersey and I want to go to California, I would be able to take my certification and be able to go to California without retaking the exam.
00:06:21
Speaker
Okay, so that's the original way it was set up. So everybody had the same standards. So going fast forward 40 years, each state has now have different levels of requirements.
00:06:35
Speaker
So it's kind of morphed into... Basically, you will not have to retake the exam. So if you're going from New Jersey and you're going to California, like I just said,
00:06:47
Speaker
California may say, hey, Mark, you don't have to take the exam since you already passed the same exam that the people take out here. But we require two years associate degree. So I may have to meet the standards. But as far as the exam, the exam is the same across the country and internationally.
00:07:04
Speaker
So the reciprocity piece is very effective. So because the exam is extensive, it's over three hours and and it's very it's not an easy exam. because we want to make sure that you know what you're doing when you're helping individuals with addiction.
00:07:19
Speaker
So the reciprocity piece is huge. It really took off during COVID years with telehealth. We had a ton of reciprocity people being able to get certified in different states to help those through telehealth.
00:07:33
Speaker
That sounds awesome.
Challenges in the Addiction Treatment Industry
00:07:34
Speaker
Now, I know as the CEO, you don't have an average day slash week, but what does your job actually entail? What do you what do you actually do?
00:07:44
Speaker
Well, you know, basically, I'm the face for ICNRC. So one of my big roles is to make sure ICNRC's name is is out there. People understand what we do.
00:07:57
Speaker
I'm kind of the ambassador for ICNRC. I try to get involved at the different federal entities such as SAMHSA, ONDCP, HRSA, CATCA for the prevention world, and Just keeping ah let people know that we are still the leaders in credentialing.
00:08:18
Speaker
We have, like I said, over 46 states that use our exams in 11 countries. So we're very proud of that. So my that is my role. is But the day-to-day, it can be different every day. yeah i have a calendar set up just like people. I was to say, I'm assuming lots of meetings. You know, some days it's, you know, today there's three meetings with Zoom being so popular now that we love to hate it, right?
00:08:44
Speaker
It be in Zoom meetings seven hours of a day meeting with different organizations and entities. And then, of course, I do have seven staff members now. We have grown from three to four to seven.
00:08:56
Speaker
so I'm now making sure that they're accomplishing their goals and tasks as well. Now, before we get into more about you specifically, let's talk a little bit about the yeah legislation that ICNRC gets involved with and the advocacy.
00:09:10
Speaker
Kind of talk a little bit about that, what your goals are and what because our our but Our goals, you know, the biggest issue that we have is people understanding addiction.
00:09:20
Speaker
Okay. The stigma is still out there. a lot of people think, hey, just stop using what's wrong with you. Pick up your bootstraps and grow up. You know, it is a disease. It's been diagnosed as a disease.
00:09:35
Speaker
don't think since back in the nineteen fifty s I can't know the exact year, but I believe it's somewhere early, early fifties. You know, when we talk about mental health, people seem to understand they have a passion for it.
00:09:47
Speaker
When you talk about addiction, people don't understand it. So we want to and educate the legislators on addiction and any kind of legislation that can help others understand that substance use disorder counselors are it's a specialty field okay it's kind of like your eyes nose throat doctor we treat the addiction and then after the addiction you have learned behaviors so there's really a ah really art to it when you're dealing with someone's with addiction
00:10:24
Speaker
a little different mindset. So mental health really gets all the publicity and rightfully so. But we want to make sure that our counselors are, you know, the biggest thing that we push for, and we've been doing this for years is retention, retention, or retention, holding our counselors. The burnout rate is so high.
00:10:43
Speaker
And part of that is because you don't see your successes. You may work with somebody and they may relapse and then they may never see them again. But somewhere down the line, they do get into an absence recovery program and they stay away from their addiction vices.
00:11:00
Speaker
And it's you see a lot of sad stories. So you don't get to see the victories, right? So people get burnt out and the caseloads and then money, money, money. we We feel that the reimbursement rates are too low. They haven't really gone up over the years. So retention More pay, of course, for counselors. We we want to advocate for and more reimbursable services.
00:11:23
Speaker
So those are really what we're we're looking to do as far as keep pushing legislation that will affect those with addictions in a positive way. That sounds great.
00:11:34
Speaker
Now, you had mentioned that you yourself ah are in
Personal Insights on Recovery and Leadership
00:11:38
Speaker
recovery. kind of The point of this podcast is that recovery is a journey, not destination, and that you go you know you can get...
00:11:46
Speaker
Off track, but still on track, if that kind of makes sense. In your thoughts, what is like to go through treatment? For me, had an option to either do going to do some time in prison or go to recovery. So I had an option.
00:12:02
Speaker
And I thought, you know, one year in recovery is better than a year in prison. Right. So my goal was not to get sober and off of drugs. Right.
00:12:13
Speaker
But halfway through the program, I started realizing like, this isn't bad. I mean, lot of my problems went away. Right. So, you know, when you get into treatment, the first fear of is as an addict is you never, oh, I can never use again. What do you mean? I can never, you know, you're always fighting to, oh, I can control it.
00:12:31
Speaker
But you have to come to the reality of, hey, I can't do this anymore because of the consequences. You know, you lose people that care about you. They stop coming around because you burn the bridges.
00:12:45
Speaker
So once you come to the point where you really decide that you want to change your life, I think that's hard, but yet one of the easier things in recovery. The hardest part in recovery is learning to figure out who you are again.
00:13:01
Speaker
Okay. Because the person you were during your addiction is not the person I am today. Right. So the people that are in my life, I've over 26 years now, people that are in my life today would not be in my life 26 years ago.
00:13:19
Speaker
And they don't know who that person is. So you have to learn all over again of like, who is Mark? What do I enjoy? What do I like? Who do I want in my life?
00:13:31
Speaker
And then, you know, and it's a journey and you get stronger. and The longer you go, I think it's ah always a learning process in recovery. You all can always learn. You get stronger. Sometimes you have weaknesses.
00:13:44
Speaker
The past always does come up. It doesn't remind you of the bad times, though. It just reminds you of the good times. So that's the challenging part is learning to deal with your emotions. Oh, I'm dating someone and they broke up with me.
00:13:58
Speaker
I'm going to go drink. That's what Mark did. Or I got in a fight with someone. I would go drink. Well, now I'm in recovery. And if so of my emotions, if someone hurts me, I can't go drink. So what do you got to do, Mark? So you got to learn all these new behaviors, how to adjust to your new lifestyle.
00:14:15
Speaker
And like you said, it's very challenging, but, um, One of the things I do to keep me in track is I usually have five basic, get back to basics, I call it.
00:14:26
Speaker
And one is ah praying, reading the Bible. I'm very spiritual. I read the Bible, go to church. I keep my... my job in the field of recovery.
00:14:37
Speaker
And I like to work out physical. And those are my basics. And that's what got me going for the longest time. i used to run a lot. I used to work out a lot. I used to help get into the field with people in recovery.
00:14:49
Speaker
And when I started having problems with family members, my spouse at work, I go back to, I probably stopped doing one of those things. So it's a constant maintenance. You really got to keep your maintenance up.
00:15:04
Speaker
going. You can't just run the car without changing your oil. It's the same thing in recovery. You just can't stop feeding your recovery ah plan. so you know it's But you know to me, a lot of people go, oh my God, I'm proud of you. To me, it's no, it's nothing other than I'm just a different person now.
00:15:25
Speaker
And this is my new lifestyle. So yes, challenging in a way because your emotions will cause you to drift back. And that's where you got to have a support system, someone to talk to, something to lean on to get you through it and get back on your feet.
00:15:40
Speaker
Well, ah speaking of which, um one of the things we like to ask is what what do you think are the biggest barriers to move forward? And are they the same on a personal level versus a industry level, you know, work level?
00:15:51
Speaker
Industry levels, the barriers is getting people into treatment. Usually when someone gets to the point of wanting help, they don't have any money. Those who are fortunate to that have money will go to these private treatment centers.
00:16:04
Speaker
And it's quite expensive, but they have the funds to do it. But a majority of people don't have funds. So the barriers is theyre having enough treatment programs to treat and having enough counselors in the field with the high burnout, low pay.
00:16:19
Speaker
They don't stick around too long. So there's always a shortage of counselors. So the big barrier is having enough treatment facilities and counselors to help those individuals. On a personal level,
00:16:31
Speaker
barriers to me on a personal level is maybe society itself right if you turn on a tv there's commercials there's there's beer commercials you go out there's bars on every corner go out to dinner there's a bar usually in the restaurant so just learning to set boundaries and know your triggers you know my triggers in my year one and two are no longer triggers so As you grow, you get stronger and you can do more. So some people, you know, can't go into a restaurant with a bar. That's fine. that's They stay away from those.
00:17:08
Speaker
Others can. When I first started, I would stay away from anything with a bar. But now I can go into a restaurant and I can sit around people that drink. But that's my journey. So the barriers is is really just the way the world is now. it's And now with the legalization of marijuana,
00:17:25
Speaker
You go down the street and you smell marijuana on every other block. Pretty strong odors since they're producing so much. So I would say the barrier is just living in this world because you just can't turn it off.
00:17:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's very true. You mentioned, ah you know, counselor burnout a couple of times now. One of the things we do at NBHAP is we try and post industry news on a regular basis on our social medias. And and I often try you know post items about counselor burnout. In your opinion, what are some of the things people can do to kind of help fight that?
00:18:00
Speaker
Well, you know, you hear it all the time is, you know, self-care, right? Taking the time, you know, your passion. My passion was so strong that I would go without eating.
00:18:15
Speaker
I would stay late at work to help individuals. And you have to have boundaries. You have to set yourself to a point where you have to say no sometimes.
00:18:27
Speaker
And it's not, you know, and you're like, well, I'm here to help people. How can I say no to individuals? If you're not healthy, it's kind of like the airplane. Put on your mask first so you can help others. If you're not putting on your mask, you know, or the other analysis is in counseling, you're wet sponge and people are squeezing you.
00:18:46
Speaker
And you get, and that sponge will dry up. If you don't go back into the water and rejuvenate yourself and still have fun on your own and get, stay, Separate family from work.
00:18:58
Speaker
It's all different scenarios of being self-care. That's really key. And the other key is I really am, you know, all the treatment centers I worked in, they talk about self-care. It's not um uncommon.
00:19:10
Speaker
But the treatment center itself is not doing anything to promote self-care other than, hey, take care of yourself. You know, why not build a community of workers that it's built into their program?
00:19:23
Speaker
And one of the things I do when I see in our street with my staff is, unless it's a dire thing, i keep them the 40 hours. ah You know, it can wait till tomorrow, right?
00:19:34
Speaker
But because if you're constantly chasing, like I did early on, I want to move up. I want, I'm working, I'm working. Guess what? That work is always there tomorrow. um So, you know, it is possible for, for treatment centers to be aware of caseloads.
00:19:50
Speaker
How many, you know, oh, can you take another client? Can you take another client? And then you wonder why I'm leaving because, um you know, the passion eventually gets put out.
00:20:01
Speaker
by, you know, overload because it it'll go into your your social life, your family life, you know, if you're working too hard and too long. Yeah, no, the definitely.
Evolving Standards in Addiction Treatment
00:20:12
Speaker
Now, as your bio said, you've been in the behavioral industry health field since 1999. I still insist the 90s were last decade. ah do Obviously, the industry has changed immensely since 99.
00:20:24
Speaker
Talk about some of those changes and whether you feel they're positive, negative, or both. I think some of the positive changes is the the standards got a little stronger. When I got into the field, it was pretty in Oklahoma, you just needed a bachelor's degree.
00:20:36
Speaker
Okay. And working towards your certification. So the standards were beefed up a little bit. So I think that's, that, that was positive. Another positive was the shift client-centered treatment, right?
00:20:51
Speaker
And I experienced my first year under the what I call the militant style of treatment, where the person coming to you had nothing, no knowledge, no knowledge.
00:21:06
Speaker
do as I say, i know best, you're I'm the counselor, you're the client, do as I say, right? Client-centered treatment shifted it to say, you know what? Yeah, you have some faults as someone looking for help, but but you also have some good paul ah positive things.
00:21:23
Speaker
What are your strengths and weaknesses? So they incorporated a voice for the client to say, what they wanted to work on, allow them to say, I do have some strengths.
00:21:34
Speaker
One of the biggest ones is we try to recognize resilience. Someone with resilience versus someone who doesn't have resilience is totally opposite of how you would work with them.
00:21:46
Speaker
Because if someone fails a treatment goal or objective that has great resilience, they're going to bounce back and you know that it's not going to affect them. But someone who doesn't have resilience, who's always been put down their whole life and then they fail, could spiral. So client-centered treatment has been great.
00:22:05
Speaker
Now, what i totally don't like is the assessment plan. That's your ah drug and alcohol assessment. You take that assessment. Usually there's multiple ones out there. Addiction Severity Index is one of the big ones.
00:22:20
Speaker
It covers seven different areas of your history and it gives you a full circle of your criminal, psychiatric, medical, drug use, alcohol use, work use, your employment and so forth.
00:22:35
Speaker
That then builds the treatment plan. And then my my treatment will be based on your needs off of this assessment. What has happened now, since money's gotten so tight and there's shortages of funding, money now is dictating treatment.
00:22:54
Speaker
So you might have where if your assessment says you need residential treatment and or say let's say you need outpatient, and I think you need at least three hours a week,
00:23:08
Speaker
the people who are rebuing reimbursing you may say, well, we're only going to pay for one hour. So now the money is dictating the treatment rather than the assessment dictating the treatment.
00:23:25
Speaker
And I can understand it to a small point, but that's really probably my biggest disappointment in how what's changed in the world. The money shouldn't be dictating how you to get services. If you need five hours a week, you should get five hours.
00:23:42
Speaker
you know But unfortunately, the people who will reimburse only give you so much. I mean, you look at your insurance companies. They give you, what, 28 days? And that's some people may work, but usually recovery takes more than 28 days.
00:23:57
Speaker
you know And your company says, sorry, I'll tell them pay for you. Now you go home. Yeah. So it's it's sad as far as that, but hope I answered Oh, yeah, definitely.
00:24:10
Speaker
Now, as I mentioned, our audience is a wide range of of levels in terms of, you know, CEO to clinician. I'm sure there's also a wide range of people, how long they've been in the industry. You know, people fresh out with people like yourself who's been in for a while.
00:24:24
Speaker
What is some of the advice you would give to somebody who's kind of new in the field and and wants to get better at it? Coming into the field, I think it's important to know what population you want to work with.
00:24:36
Speaker
Okay, so in other words, what individuals do you want to serve? My passion was Adolescents. A lot of people can't work with adolescents.
00:24:46
Speaker
They rather work with adults. And people who work with adolescents sometimes can't work with adults. Very few can cross over because the mindset's totally different.
00:24:58
Speaker
Do you want to work with those that are incarcerated? Do you want to work in the domestic violence field? you know So there's a lot of different areas that you can give back, and you need to find the one that you feel passionate about.
00:25:12
Speaker
because with the high burnout rate of being a counselor, You really need something that you enjoy. And if you're working in a field with adults and you just don't like you working with adults, that's going to burn you out quicker. So really try to find who you want to work out.
00:25:31
Speaker
And and if you're before you get started, you can you know do some internships if you can, or try to figure it out by working in certain areas. If you don't like it, move to another area that you can feel more comfortable in because that'll sustain you in the long run.
00:25:45
Speaker
So I think that's real important. And of course, setting boundaries between yourself and the clients. ah You know, we're there like two ships passing. I'm not supposed to be in your life forever.
00:25:58
Speaker
I'm here to give you some tools. My goal is to help you learn how to sustain your recovery. I'm not here to tell you how to do it. You would have to figure it out. And my goal is to help you figure it out.
00:26:11
Speaker
And so you can you can stand on your own after our services are done. So. yeah ah well and speaking out of advice if you could go back in time to when you were first starting what would be kind of some of the key tips you'd give yourself or key you know what would you um make your help yourself oh uh do not when working with adolescents do not take what they say to heart oh i had to discipline one adolescent and um gosh, his name, I can picture his face right now. This was many years ago.
00:26:45
Speaker
And he cussed me up and down after I disciplined him. And I went home that night and I was pretty new. And I went home to my wife and I'm like, I just, I'm supposed to help people. And I got this one young young person hating me.
00:27:02
Speaker
And I'm like, what am I going to do? the You know, what, what did I do? I'm, you know, cause it was like, kind of tearing me apart. I walk in the next day and I, and he's walking toward me and i'm walking I'm like, okay, what am I going to say? And he's like, Hey Mark, what's going on? Everything's good.
00:27:18
Speaker
So adolescents don't hold onto to things. And so that would be key to tell myself is don't, don't take what's on the surface with adolescents.
00:27:29
Speaker
Now with adults, this is where I mentioned earlier, adults will hold onto things. Adolescents don't, they move on pretty quickly. Another thing I would tell myself is that, and it took me a while to learn this, I almost left the field.
00:27:44
Speaker
um I'm glad I didn't, but we're planting seeds. You know, Mark, you're planting seeds. You're not going to see the growth. You let's put the seed in the ground. That thing may blossom.
00:27:55
Speaker
And sure enough, after I left the Adolescent Treatment Center for a couple of years, I'd run into former clients that who would remember me. I saw a hundreds, so I don't.
00:28:07
Speaker
remember them. I got to like, okay, what time, what year, you know, and they would, a lot of them come up to me and say, Hey, Mark, you know, i didn't get it at first, but I did get it.
00:28:17
Speaker
So it was very rewarding. And that taught me like, Hey, even though you don't see the outcomes, you're doing good work. Well, and then, yeah, in the same vein, you've been in, ah you know, 21 years of nonprofit leadership experience.
00:28:31
Speaker
In your opinion, what makes a good leader? Well, one, you need to know who you are. You need to know your good qualities. You need to know your bad qualities. um You need to know what you're good at versus what you're not good at and find people who are good at those things that you're not.
00:28:48
Speaker
and um And you need to have a good team. You need to build a good team. You need to trust that team. You need to empower that team. and and hold them accountable. And along with giving them this, you know, my management style is is a little different, is I empower my employees, I give them the skills to do the job, and I hold them accountable.
00:29:08
Speaker
And I think understanding that helps you lead better. You need the people in there that are going to be able to Do the job to help you. you know ah You hear it all the time. It's, I'm only as good as my employees, people I'm around.
00:29:26
Speaker
Understanding, like I said, the weaknesses, understanding your strengths and filling those those gaps with people that are good at it and then trusting them. Yeah.
Special Initiatives and Collaborations
00:29:36
Speaker
ah Excuse me. Now I'm looking over your longer bio and it says ah you helped create a Native American certification in the state of Oklahoma, the Southern Plain Tribal Health Board.
00:29:45
Speaker
Talk a little bit about that. what Why was that created? What was what's the goal? That kind of thing. So at the time that was created, ICRC did have some jurisdictions, some Indian health services, which had different standards for the Native Americans.
00:30:03
Speaker
And Native Americans are their own sovereign nation. So their tribes, that I believe, are their own cyber nation. So they they can make their own rules on who can be counselors and so forth.
00:30:15
Speaker
There was a need or a push from a few Native American tribes in Oklahoma saying, hey, we want to have better standards. ah We want to have more competent counselors.
00:30:27
Speaker
right So we met with Southern Plains Tribal Health Board in Oklahoma, and we sat down and said, okay, what does this look like? You know, so we actually really ah readjusted to standards and we did use the ICRC exams.
00:30:45
Speaker
um So it was a push from from the field. And then we just got some support with Southern Plains Tribal Health Board, who are the subject matter experts. I think we felt at the time that they were.
00:30:58
Speaker
that they helped us create the the different standards to understand the population. and and it's And it's done pretty well, you know, but once again, if it's not mandated or if it's not required, it's very hard for people to do it. Or if you're not going to get paid money, know, reimbursed for it, why get certified?
00:31:15
Speaker
But ICRC is looking at a... Alternative exam for Native Americans, it's it's very complicated because in order to create a competency-based exam, the practices in one state must be common in another state. So I can't test on cognitive behavioral therapy in the Northeast if they don't believe in it.
00:31:41
Speaker
You know, that's an example, of course. But if they, you know, if if certain different practices theories aren't used, I can't be testing you on that theory.
00:31:51
Speaker
So when we create our exams, we bring subject matter experts in from all over the United States and internationally. And they sit down and they build the questions and they have discussions and review and so forth to make sure that these questions are are not going to be only for those in the Southwest.
00:32:11
Speaker
It needs to be overall. So we'll see where that goes. It's going to take some time, but it'll be a wonderful thing if we can get it accomplished. Yeah, that sounds great. Well, and speaking of your work with ah Oklahoma, you also partnered with the Oklahoma Coalition Against Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, developing the Domestic Violence Awareness Program. Talk a little bit about that.
00:32:32
Speaker
Yeah, that was, ah gosh, that was kind of an unexpected relationship. The Coalition of Domestic Violence in Oklahoma felt that counselors needed education in domestic violence, and they wanted to mandate
00:32:56
Speaker
X amount of continually education units to all counselors. So, of course, you have your licensed professional counselors, you have your psychologist, you have your LCSW, have your licensed alcohol drug counselors are saying, I'm licensed.
00:33:13
Speaker
I am competent to know What I'm skilled at, if it's not my expertise, I will refer out and so forth. So it was a legislative move. And of course, everybody got up in arms.
00:33:28
Speaker
And it was basically all the licensed professionals were going against the coalition, saying no. And they were lobbying their state representatives not to pass this mandate.
00:33:41
Speaker
So during that meeting, I recognized, I'm like, boy, this the they're passionate as much as I was when I got in this field about domestic violence. So I suggested to the group, I said, and I know counselors, if you mandate something, they they don't want to do it.
00:33:59
Speaker
But if you offer it, they're more likely to do it on their own, right? So I suggested to them, don't don't put a mandate, but let's all of us incorporate domestic violence in workshops and conferences. So during our conference, I worked with the coalition to bring in ah two to three speakers every conference.
00:34:21
Speaker
We did used to do two a year back then. And and they were ah their breakout sessions were full. And people were getting educated. We gave them a free vendor booth. We put stuff on our website. So it turned out to be this fighting, standing up for the counselors, because that's what who we advocated for, to turning into a wonderful relationship with them and working with them to help them and help get people to understand domestic violence.
00:34:50
Speaker
And I think that's what we're finding out a lot. You know, to go back 15 years fifteen years ago There wasn't much talk about domestic violence, eating disorders.
00:35:01
Speaker
But now the field is starting to recognize domestic violence, eating disorders. There's all types of mental health and SUD addictions that go along with it.
00:35:12
Speaker
So, yeah, you need to understand domestic violence. You need to understand that if you're treating domestic violence, there could be addiction problems. And if you're treating someone with an addiction, you need to recognize, is this person in a bad relationship?
00:35:25
Speaker
So it it was first to fight against them, but it turned it into a great relationship. And I believe they're still sending speakers to ah the ODAPCA conference today that is specialty just on domestic violence. So that was wonderful.
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah.
Mark's Personal Motivation and Future Outlook
00:35:42
Speaker
To lighten the mood, you the final thing in your bio I want to ask about, highly recruited out of high school in baseball by the Cincinnati Reds and Milwaukee Brewers. What position?
00:35:52
Speaker
I was an outfielder. played left field and it in high school and then moved to right field in college. um Yeah, the Cincinnati Reds, Didn't turn out too good, but Milwaukee did offer for me to sign.
00:36:07
Speaker
And I thought at the time, you know what, it's it's not enough. Because once you commit, if you don't make it, which is very hard to make it, you can't go back to college and play. So, you know, my advice that was given to me is, hey, you don't need to take this offer. Go to college, get your college education and get the better offer.
00:36:29
Speaker
And that was my goal. um But unfortunately, the love for alcohol and drugs really hampered my success. I did go on.
00:36:41
Speaker
and went to a Division I school and then ended up Moving to a JUCO school and then going to a Division III, I did still set some records, but you know making it to that level, you need to be ah really talented or gifted.
00:36:56
Speaker
And if you're not, you can't be drinking every night and trying to make it to the major leagues. yeah but Yeah, definitely. Now we're getting close to the end. um i always like to ask about resources. Are there any books, magazines, newsletters, websites that you would recommend to people in the industry to kind of stay on top of what's going on?
00:37:17
Speaker
Counselor Magazine really good. i think that's an awesome resource. I think SAMHSA National Institute on Drug Abuse is another great resource.
00:37:29
Speaker
If you're getting in prevention, CATCA. So there's a lot of federal websites out there. i know BHAP is another great resource.
00:37:41
Speaker
I'm not getting paid for this, by the way. this say good Thanks for the plug. what But I'm not getting paid for the plug. We're adjusting our website and and we're starting to make some changes on us to be really adding a new feature, hopefully by the end of this year, to have a lot of information and education and research on our website.
00:38:03
Speaker
So there's a lot of gi like I said, SAMHSA, any of your federal ones. But those those are the ones I would recommend. Now, when all is said and done. Why do it? Why why be in addiction treatment and behavioral health?
00:38:18
Speaker
To me, personally, it's part of my recovery. i Somebody gave to me, and I i feel i need to give back too. So as long as I can help others, I'm going to continue to stay in this field because someone took the time to help me.
00:38:39
Speaker
So there's no question with a doubt. Now, it's changed. You know, life changes you. You start off trying to be a counselor. You go to administrative, and here I'm running it. I'm still in the field. I'm still helping others, not at the certified counselor level, ah but people who...
00:38:55
Speaker
need help, I can point them in the right direction. I know the counselors now are or good and healthy counselors. There are bad apples out there. However, least I feel comfortable who someone who took our exam has the skills and abilities to help others without hurting them.
00:39:13
Speaker
That is a great answer. Now, as I mentioned, we're get we're we're at the end of the interview. I could probably talk to you for a little bit, you know, at least another couple hours. But was there something that you thought I'd ask, but I didn't or that you wanted to cover, but we hadn't?
00:39:28
Speaker
I don't think so. I think you covered a lot. I mean. Okay. And then for people who want to get in touch with you you or ask more questions about what you've talked about, tell them how they can get hold of you. Sure. You can go mark at internationalcredentialing.org.
00:39:43
Speaker
Sorry for that URL. I did not create that. mark at internationalcredentialing.org. Or you can go to our website, internationalcertification.org. so And then you also have ah are on LinkedIn, correct? I'm on LinkedIn. Please message me. I'll let you join. you can LinkedIn is popular too.
00:40:02
Speaker
On the website, my email address. And I think you can call me at 717-540-4457 extension 4. five four zero four four five seven extension four
00:40:16
Speaker
You've been listening to Destination Change. Our guest today was Mark Adanisi. Thanks for being here. Our theme song was Sun Nation by Kitsa and used via a Creative Commons license by the Free Music Archive. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple Podcasts we can get more listeners.
00:40:30
Speaker
In the meantime, you can always see more about the podcast, including show notes and where else to listen, on our website, www.nbhap.org. If you have any questions for the podcast, please email us at info at nbhap.org. Thanks for listening!