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Episode 20: Jordan Young
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In 2010, Jordan’s personal recovery and desire to help others pushed him away from corporate B2B sales and towards behavioral healthcare. He began his career in an admissions role at the corporate headquarters of one of the industry’s most respected companies. In that role, he worked with over 4,000 patients and their families to coordinate treatment with hundreds of treatment centers around the country and facilitate intervention services. In 2018, his aspirations to make a more significant impact on behavioral healthcare led to the creation of Jordan and Associates Consulting, whose purpose is to leverage the experience, education, and thousands of connections made in the industry to help treatment centers overcome obstacles blocking their path to success.
He is an avid sports fan, and the only job that could pull him away from behavioral healthcare is when the Tennessee Titans call to name him their head coach.
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Transcript
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Destination Change, a podcast where we talk recovery, treatment, and more. I'm your host, Angie Fiedler-Sutton, with the National Behavioral Health Association providers, and I use she-her pronouns. Today's guest is Jordan Young. In 2010, Jordan's personal recovery and desire to help others pushed him away from corporate B2B sales and towards behavioral health care. He began his career in admissions role at the corporate headquarters of one of the industry's most respected companies,
00:00:35
Speaker
In that role, he worked with over 4,000 patients and their families to coordinate treatment with hundreds of treatment centers around the country and facilitate intervention services. In 2018, his aspirations to make a more significant impact on behavioral health care led to the creation of Jordan and Associates Consulting, whose purpose is to leverage the experience, education, and thousands of connections made in the industry to help treatment centers overcome obstacles blocking their past success.
00:00:59
Speaker
He is an avid sports fan, and the only job that could pull him away from behavioral health care is when the Tennessee Titans call to name him their head coach. Thank you for joining us today, Jordan. Thank you, Angie. I appreciate you inviting me on and doing this with me. Yeah. Well, I mean, I kind of already talked about this in the bio, but I'd like a little bit more information about how you kind of got into the recovery industry, why you, I mean, you obviously have a history of recovery, but what made you decide to go into recovery versus, you know, use that as a job? but Yeah, yeah, that's that's a great question. So I got sober in 2009 and I was working a corporate B2B sales job and it was a really good company. I had a friend that worked at the treatment center that I went to work at and their location was about 300 feet from where my office was and he and I would go to lunch sometimes and he told me about the organization and how great it was and
00:01:54
Speaker
It sounded sounded awesome. It sounded like he was really helping people out and it was something that I wanted to get involved with. so I told him that whenever they were hiring, let me know because I would love a chance to work with that industry and that population. so I don't know, about eight months ago by or so. and I had lost my job during the during the ah recession of 08 or 09. They started a new department that handled all the patients that called in that their facilities were not a fit for. and so I was the first hire for that department.
00:02:34
Speaker
And it's something I think about like when you were reading my bio, I want to make sure that people know that, hey, I wasn't a broker when I first got into the industry because we say I referred over 4000 patients to hundreds of treatment centers around the country, which I did.
00:02:52
Speaker
But it was because our facilities weren't the right fit for that patient, whether it was their financial, geographic, or clinical needs. We weren't the best fit for them. So I worked with hundreds of treatment centers around the country and referred them to those facilities for free. It wasn't a brokering type situation. So that's how I got into the field. And that was my first job.
00:03:17
Speaker
Great. Why behavioral health? I mean, why specifically? I mean, your history, but what draws you to it? So now it would be very, very difficult for me to get out of. I'm pretty much a lifer now because I've worked in it for 14 years and I have so many connections in the field that if I stepped into a new industry, it would be like starting over and I knew no one and no one would know me. But initially why why I got and ah into the industry,
00:03:47
Speaker
So when I was interviewing for jobs after I i had lost my position at the B2B company, actually a competitor of theirs was courting me along with me applying for the treatment center organization and I had had simultaneous offers. it's funny It's funny how it works out like that. You can go months without being able to get a job, but then whenever you get one, you have another one come in at the same time.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so for me, I could go into doing something that I knew how to do and I had, I was okay at it, you know, the, the B2B sales job, or I could try something different that I was really passionate about. And I think that's what drew me into the industry and that's what keeps me in it.
00:04:31
Speaker
You hear buzz about negativity, about certain people in the industry or certain things that people are doing from a business standpoint. And that is true. There is ugliness in this industry, but there's ugliness in all industries.
00:04:47
Speaker
you know, they say how corrupt certain states are in the industry, you know, that it's it's a shady state and they do all these unethical things. Well, yeah, that may be the case. But also, there's people doing unethical things in all areas of the country, not just one or two or four particular states. But likewise, they're really good people that are doing good work for good reasons all over the country too. And so I feel like That's what I look for. you know what whatever Whatever you're seeking out is what you're gonna find, whether you're looking for the good in someone or the bad in someone. And I like to be the type of person that tries to seek out the good. you're not Not naively, but I feel like we have really good people doing good work in our industry. Great. Well, let's talk a little bit about you creating your own company. Why do that versus stay with the company that you were with?
00:05:44
Speaker
Oh, it was so scary, Angie. It was so scary. Okay, so I had been with my prior organization for quite a few years, and we had been acquired, I think, three times. And a big treatment center organization acquired us in 2015. So I started in 2010, we required Is it the second or third time that we were required while I was there? And the compe the parent organization pretty much left us alone. and And during that time, I was working with some investors on opening my own treatment center. And we had we had plans to be in one state and ended up changing plans and getting rid of a couple of the investors and started plans to open in a different state and things didn't work out.
00:06:38
Speaker
It was very disappointing. It was a very disappointing experience, but things didn't work out. And I decided that was in 2017. And so that had been something I'd worked on for a couple of years. And I decided, OK, I'm going to give this a shot. I'm going to do everything I can to stay at this organization. I know that things have changed within the culture. So the parent organization left us alone for for about a year or two before they started making changes to our culture. And I could really feel it starting in 17. I said, okay, I'm going to start trying to do whatever I can to make this a position in a company that I want to stay at. you know and And not just stay at because I'm waiting on something else.
00:07:21
Speaker
And I felt things within the organization and the management team that I just could not, I no longer wanted to be a part of. I ah couldn't continue to work at an organization like that for a long period of time. And so I started asking people, peers and people that I respected, what do you think would be a good move for me next? And so what so many people told me was you need to go into consulting. And I thought, okay, great.
00:07:51
Speaker
But I don't really understand what a consultant does. That was going to be my next question. Yeah. yeah And so so I started this business and I left a great job. you I talk about all the all the things that I didn't like before, but it's it paid me very well. i was basically it was It was like having the autonomy of being self-employed. I made my budgets. As long as I hit my numbers and everything, they at least the prior management had left me alone.
00:08:20
Speaker
It was a great. yeah I knew tons of people in in the industry, tons of people knew me, so I left to go do something I had no idea how to do. I didn't know what it was. I didn't really understand consulting. My idea, my original business plan, Angie, was that I know so many people out there. What I'm going to do is I'm going to find the need that you have, and I'm going to match you up with whomever that may be. because I know experts, you know, this is my mindset. I know experts that do anything you could possibly need in the industry. And that was true. that's That's still true. But my idea for my consulting company was really going to be more like a contractor service. And there were a few things that I would work with people on. And so when I started this consulting business, I would explain to people, well, I do this and this and this and this and this, you know, all these different things.
00:09:11
Speaker
No one really understood because, honestly, Angie, I didn't understand. And a couple of people who I respect, who I hold in very high regard in the industry, told me early on, probably within the first six months of me and me being out of my own, they said, Jordan, what do you do?
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, I know what you're saying, and I would have a conversation with you because I know you and I like you. But if I didn't, I wouldn't have a call with you because I don't understand what you do. yeah I had no real value proposition other than, hey, I know a whole lot of people, and I'm and i'm kind of friendly. So so yeah, that that was the beginning of my my consulting business. It was it was very is very, very scary.
00:09:57
Speaker
yeah Well, and full disclosure for our audience, Jordan Associates is a associate member of MBHAP and Jordan is on our advisory team. Kind of what is your favorite part of doing of working your consulting? like So okay, so my consulting company is really recruiting business. 95% of the work that I do is in recruiting within healthcare, care but almost exclusively within behavioral health.
00:10:25
Speaker
I've just recently, because of some very valuable connections I have in the ABA industry, I've taken on a couple of clients in ABA, but I work almost exclusively in hiring key staff for treatment centers and some in companies that service treatment centers. so that's That's my favorite thing that I do. And it's something that I had no idea how to do when I started doing it. It was a need that got pressed upon me. So if if you allow me to, I'll tell you this story about that as well. Yeah. So people people were calling me because of all the connections that I had with
00:11:01
Speaker
running that outbound referral department. and Really where I gained the most contacts and where most people know me from is I ran a prominent behavioral health conference series for almost six years. and These were conferences about 1,000 to 1,800 attendees and 100 to 150 exhibitors and I designed out the themes I wrote the bulk of the marketing content or some of the bulk marketing content. I did the agenda work for the speakers, but I did all of our sales. And so that was sales for all the exhibitors, the sponsors. And these are like, I think I've mentioned the number of participants that we had, but they were huge conferences. And so because of that, whenever owners and hiring managers were looking to hire, oftentimes they called me and said, Hey, Jordan, I need to hire BD rep in Vermont. Do you know anybody? i'm like well, yeah, I actually do. But here, let me connect you with these recruiting companies. They're when people were looking for jobs, they would call me and there were there were some recruiting companies that I knew that I would just I would just pass people along to that needed help. And I remember specifically, I sent over another candidate to this recruiting company. And the guy said, Jordan, please don't send us any more candidates. All we want are jobs that you send. And I'd send a couple of jobs. I thought, huh,
00:12:23
Speaker
Okay, well, I won't send anyone to you ever again. And a friend of mine, a former co-worker, a good friend of mine, and a close business associate,
00:12:35
Speaker
I remember I was at the C4 conference, which no longer exists, in Amelia Island. I remember I was in the exhibit hall and he called me. I took the call in the exhibit hall. He said, hey, Jordan, I got promoted today to VP of business development. I need to hire 10 business development reps this year and five next year. I want you to do it for me.
00:12:59
Speaker
i said ah OK, I'll give it a try. And so this was a guy who had encouraged me because of my network to go into recruiting. And so that was that was the first time that I said, OK, I'll try this recruiting thing. And I remember they gave me a couple of positions. I filled them both and I thought, huh, all right. Well, I think I can do this.
00:13:24
Speaker
And so I've just figured things out as I've gone along. i you know A lot of hard work, a lot of contacts that I have, but working with some professional recruiters for coaching. I mean, i've i have it took me a while to do it, but I invested in my own education and some people that are much better recruiters than then maybe I'll ever dream of being, but investing in my education has made me a a lot better with my craft.
00:13:52
Speaker
You've been doing this for a while. You've said you've learned some lessons. What is your biggest lesson that you've learned since starting this work? The biggest lesson that I've learned is to be flexible. So I went in, like I had mentioned, to consulting with no idea how to do it, but I knew that that was what I was going to do. But what the market dictated I needed to provide for it was recruiting services.
00:14:21
Speaker
Helping treatment centers hire key staff and helping behavioral health professionals find new careers, find new positions. That's the number one thing. Be flexible. Observe where the needs are and fill those needs. Observe where your talents are. And my talents, it wasn't like I got into recruiting, but like, oh yeah, there's a big need and maybe I can figure out how to do that.
00:14:44
Speaker
from those prior positions that I had, I have such a gigantic network within behavioral health that I'm able to open the door to talent that is not available to other people, to to most people, to recruiting companies, to even people that work in the industry because I know so many people from my prior work in the industry, but also there are so many people that I may not know personally, but at least they know of my reputation and people that even if they're not interested in positions, oftentimes, they'll take a call with me either to offer a referral or to be polite with me. Because fortunately, i've throughout my time working in the industry, I've developed a pretty good reputation. Okay. Since you are a recruiter, what would you say is your and not to give away all your secrets, but your number one hiring tip for people who are hiring? Oh, man, there's so many for hiring managers.
00:15:43
Speaker
I would make sure that hiring managers know going in that just like you're ah hiring or just like you're interviewing multiple candidates, these candidates are interviewing multiple companies. So it's not like, oh, we're going to so graciously offer you this job. You know, you're welcome.
00:16:04
Speaker
No, you have to sell the opportunity to the candidates. You have to give them a reason to choose you over the other hiring managers and companies and people that they're going to report to or people that they're going to work alongside. You have to make them choose your organization and your opportunity over all those others. I did a survey. So something that I'll also kind of dabble in is surveys within the healthcare and behavioral health industry.
00:16:33
Speaker
and again I can explain that more in depth if you want. later but But one of the things that I found was was there like 68 or 70% of people that accept a new position are interviewing for multiple opportunities at once. It's not like ah I'm just going to go to this one. This is the only place I'm going to interview with.
00:16:58
Speaker
you the overwhelming ah majority of people that leave their company, they're looking at at least two and sometimes three or more opportunities at once. So why choose me? And the opposite, one number one job search tip or for people who are looking for jobs. Oh, man, there's so many.
00:17:19
Speaker
I would say be prepared. You know, treat treat it like it's an actual interview. I know that in our world of Zooms and a lot of people have become a lot more relaxed and be prepared. You know, research your company that you're interviewing with.
00:17:39
Speaker
If you know who you're going to interview with the individual, research them. If you're doing a Zoom, prepare for it. Know why you want the position. Know about the company. Know why you're attractive, why you would be an attractive candidate to put in this role. What makes what makes you the right fit for this organization? And God,
00:18:04
Speaker
Ask for the job sell the hiring manager close the interview know what you want from a compensation standpoint be prepared do mock interviews have some your standard interview questions and go through those practice those.
00:18:23
Speaker
I know you're based in Tennessee, but your recruitment is all across the US, correct? All over the country, yes. Actively right now, i have because I have my job board in front of me, I have positions in Washington State, New York, South Carolina, Texas, more Texas, Mississippi, Connecticut, Ohio, Arizona, Virginia,
00:18:49
Speaker
You've mentioned your research. Let's talk a little bit more about that. I know on the HMP FM podcast, you you had just done a report, but that was a couple of years ago, I want to say. ah So talk about what some kind of research you've done. Okay, so so I've done surveys. Now, the genesis of this is recruiting typically slows down fourth quarter, right? And picks back up third week of January, kind of like clockwork. So I was going through a slow season. And I thought,
00:19:21
Speaker
the overwhelming majority of people that I speak with are unhappy with their current job or their current manager, right? I mean, that makes sense doing what I do. And I thought, well, how prevalent is is that within the behavioral health care industry? So I did a survey on employee engagement. And I had, I mean, there was like 1200 people that completed the survey and got some good information from that. And so I decided, you know,
00:19:50
Speaker
maybe this doesn't have to be just the one off. Maybe I can do some more and it doesn't really help me as an organization. yeah I guess maybe it's from a marketing perspective it has and and i've I've been asked to a few podcasts and ah presented conferences I think maybe based off of that.
00:20:11
Speaker
but ah Yeah, they're you know just surveying behavioral health care. So we did employee engagement, we did company culture, and then we did a general health care one. That one was more broad. So that included behavioral health, skilled nursing, senior living, and other health care related industries.
00:20:34
Speaker
Great. I'm looking over your website and it says your mission is to turn points of pain and and angst into the most successful part of your business. Talk a little bit what you mean by points of pain and and how you're going to turn that in. I mean pain points. just Just think about the treatment centers out there. What do they struggle most with? They struggle with...
00:20:52
Speaker
you know, patient acquisition, essentially. So like admissions. So does that mean business development, they need better business development team members, they need a better admissions department, they need better digital marketing to help make the phones ring? Is it that they need someone to help them once they get people into treatment to better be able to collect revenue from insurance? You know, so revenue cycle management, do they need prior to getting off the ground? Do they need help with their state licensing or their joint commission or car for accreditation?
00:21:33
Speaker
Do they need someone to help write their policies and procedures? Do they need a referral for an amazing agency that provides education like BHEP does? Or do they do they need a behavioral health care attorney? you know What do they need? Because like i like I mentioned, whenever I first started the consulting business, there's not a service that someone would need in the behavioral health care industry that I don't have a good connection for. And none that I can think of at least. And so, you know, whatever your pain point is, if it's something that I can help you with personally, I'll be happy to. But more than likely, it's something that I don't specialize in. And that's something that I've learned in and consulting is like, I'm not going to try to tell people that I'm everything to everyone.
00:22:25
Speaker
Now I found my niche and and that's that's another good lesson I've learned as well is find your niche and go after your niche and don't try to be everything to everyone. And I know what my niche is and I know that there are a lot of other great people that do great work in different niches and I'm happy to have conversations with people and just refer them on to someone else. I had a guy that reached out to me a couple weeks ago on LinkedIn asking for help with a consultant. And I said, well, what specifically do you need? He said, well, I need a consultant in this area. I said, well, I'll be happy to have a call with you, but it may not be something that I can help you with. It may not be something that I'm best suited to help you with.
00:23:09
Speaker
you know I could advise people on their admissions and business development and other types of strategies, but I don't think I'm the very best for that. i think I think I'm the best at what I do, but yeah, this guy needed help with policies and procedures and state licensing and accreditation in Arizona. I said, yeah, I said, i said I'm not going to be the person to help you with that, but I know who will. Let me let me send an intro email for you.
00:23:37
Speaker
As you mentioned, you started in 2013. For better or for worse, that is over 10 years ago. not not last but and Not last year. What would you say is the biggest change that you've seen since starting? so I started in the industry in 2010. I started my business in 18. Honestly, i mean i've I've had two different, almost three different careers is what it seems like.
00:24:00
Speaker
my First position in the industry when I was doing the outbound referrals, I've noticed how it seemed like treatment centers worked together better. you know From like a referral standpoint, it wasn't that we're trying to be all things to everyone. It's that we can find a partner that serves patients well and serves patients with different needs than we do, and we can refer patients to them.
00:24:30
Speaker
And I feel like maybe that collaboration still exists, but it doesn't seem like it exists to the point that it did back in 2010. What I've noticed from a business standpoint here more recently is the change in ownership and how we've become I like to say that we've always been an under-professionalized profession, and I feel like to a point we still are, but it's becoming more professionalized and we're seeing a change in the owners and the operators and and a lot of private lot of private equity coming in.
00:25:11
Speaker
and a lot of consolidation, fewer and fewer mom and pops, a lot more people entering into the industry and being gobbled up by these big organizations. So that's the biggest change that I've seen most recently.
00:25:28
Speaker
and't say angie It may be because I'm more privy to those types of conversations with people now. yeah know Back when I was running conferences, it was a different group of people that I worked with. My primary positions that I worked with were not your CEO. That makes sense.
00:25:46
Speaker
Now, our audience base is all over from from counselors to CEOs. We have, yeah I'm sure, HR people listening to. What kind of resources do you use on a regular basis that you would recommend for others if they were in the industry? That gives their websites or articles or books that you would recommend? For more knowledge, for hiring, what what in what ways?
00:26:08
Speaker
Just for people in HR looking to hire or you know people who are other other consultants that are basically what do you turn to to learn more about what you do? ah Well, ah love behab I love I love BHAP. Like you said, I'm a board member, but but I think BHAP provides great resources for people that are starting up in the industry, people that are existing in the industry, the training, the one that I took, that you just started, whenever I was first getting launched to my consulting business, that one was amazing. that It was like a 10 part series. Oh yeah, or SUD.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah that that was a great one. I mean, that gives you information on everything that you need to know in the industry. I mean, for for someone who is looking to become an operator and maybe they come from the skilled nursing or senior living industries or some other industry where, yeah, it's a profession, it's similar, but it's not the exact same. It gives you details that it'll take years to accumulate that knowledge. So that's a great one. And you know, BHAP is constantly putting out really valuable education. Natap also has great resources, I would look at, there's really good information.
00:27:31
Speaker
available if you seek it. So that that would be probably what I would do. I would look I would look at I would look at industry groups, you know, on your LinkedIn, your Facebook, whatever. So would I would look there. And you're from a from a hiring perspective, for hiring managers, job placement boards for the types of positions that I focus on, they don't do very well.
00:27:57
Speaker
So sixty two percent of my placements are personal contacts eighteen percent of referrals so that means twenty percent of the people that are placed in roles come from job posting boards and that's the overwhelming majority of what you see with.
00:28:14
Speaker
recruiting agencies or people doing internal hires is folks coming through job posting boards. Now, if you have to use a job posting board, Indeed has been by far the best that I've seen. Zip recruiter has had some decent quality through zip recruiter. None of the others have ever done anything for me. I don't think that ah I literally don't think I've ever made a placement through any other job posting board besides that. But I would say for hiring managers, use ah use a lot of resources. And also and also something that other recruiting, you know recruiting companies aren't gonna like to hear me say, but use your internal resources too. know Put an employee incentive plan in there where employee referrals are incentivized. Get them to refer their friends and their peers and people that they know are good and can get the job done and go to them.
00:29:07
Speaker
Go to them and see, hey, how can you help us find great team members to add to your team, to our team? So do that. Lean lean in on your lean in on connections that you have in the local communities or your centers of influence.
00:29:25
Speaker
ah You've mentioned LinkedIn a couple of different times. What would be your recommendation for how best to use LinkedIn? I mean, some people say it's, you know, useless. Some people love it. How would you use it? I love it. I have 27,000 connections, literally. So I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. i think it's I think it's great for prospecting certain types of positions.
00:29:45
Speaker
and it's It's also a lot easier if you have a bunch of connections that um and a following and you have ah a presence on there. so if you're If you're a hiring manager and you're looking to bring in top talent, well, why is the top talent going to respond to a message that you may send them? yeah like Make yourself stand out.
00:30:08
Speaker
And again, that kind of goes back to interviewing with people. yeah why Why are people going to want to go and work at your organization? How much energy do you exude? how How confident are they in the organization based upon their interaction with you?
00:30:24
Speaker
I've had a few months ago, a really good candidate that I was speaking with. And she had actually already interviewed with this client of mine. And she said, Yeah, Jordan said the person that was interviewed me just, she just didn't seem interested. And it was, you know, and like, she never even she never even got a callback.
00:30:42
Speaker
she never got a callback and it was, it's not like that's the only candidate that I spoke with that had interviewed at that organization that never got a callback. And I'm thinking guys, even if you're not interested in hiring someone or passing them on to a next step, you have to at least extend the professional courtesy of a callback because they're gonna tell someone who's gonna tell someone else who's gonna tell someone else. And you don't want yourself to get a bad reputation with either potential employees or potential people in the community that may seek treatment of your organization because you don't do a good job of following up with you know potential talent. We're getting close to the end. and We mentioned job search tips and hiring tips, but you also mentioned a big part of your you what you do is is networking. What would you say is your number one networking tip? I would say, and this sounds very simple,
00:31:39
Speaker
but Don't be shy, whether it's an in-person event or it's online, don't be shy. Put yourself out there, but also be interested.
00:31:53
Speaker
not interesting. And what I mean by that is find out about people. you know One of the things having ran conferences for as long as I did, I attended a lot of other conferences because you know the best place to find people that want to spend money at a conference and sponsor it at a conference is at other conferences where they're spending money and sponsoring. And so I would go to a bunch of different conferences outside of my own and saw how people interacted.
00:32:19
Speaker
And, you know, people that have closed off body language, if they're an exhibitor and they're sitting down or they're on their phone, they're not engaging, they don't make eye contact, those are bad signs. But also, if you come in and, Andy, you're trying to sell me a membership to BHAP, and you just jump right in and you tell me about, you know, this, is this, this, this, this, this about BHAP, and you have no idea what I do.
00:32:45
Speaker
you have no clue what you may be telling me that is attractive to me, that stands out. So if you get a chance to like, let me talk about myself and tell you a little bit about who I am and what's important to me in my business, then you can determine, okay, is this guy going to be, is this company going to be a candidate for my service or what I'm offering? Or what about my service or my offering?
00:33:13
Speaker
is going to be the most attractive to this person. So you know from a networking standpoint, get to know the person that you're speaking with. you know It's not just like, OK, hey, my name's Jordan. Let me tell you tell you about me. And then I walk away like, OK, I didn't even get your name. like it's It's a two-way street. Now, as I mentioned, we're getting close to the end. Was there something that you wanted to talk about but haven't or that you thought I was going to ask but didn't? I don't think so.
00:33:40
Speaker
And then finally, if people want to learn more about you, where can they find you? They can find my website, which is Jordan, J-O-R-D-A-N at Jordanandassociates.net is spelled out. Associates has an S. Net is like a net. They can find me on LinkedIn through my name, Jordan Young. And those are the best ways to find me.
00:34:06
Speaker
Great. Well, thank you very much. You've been listening to Destination Change. Our guest today was Jordan Young. Thanks for being here. Our theme song was Sudden Nation by Kitsa and used via Creative Common License by the Free Music Archive. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple Podcast so we can get more listeners. In the meantime, you can always see more about the podcast, including show notes and where else to listen on our website, www.mbhap.org. If you have questions for the podcast, please email us at info at nbhab.org. Thanks for listening.